3 paths not traveled. The Kobe hypotheticals. Click when very very bored.

[Kblaze8855]

Lets say parallel universes are proven to exist tomorrow and this is how 3 of them played out for Kobe.....this is all the info you are given.



1. Kobe is drafted #8 by the Nets as John Calipari always wanted and claimed he would have done if he thought Kobe would come. He has minimal impact as a rookie and they get a high pick the next year as well. Hoped to get duncan but got #2...selecting Billups instead. Kobe develops quickly into a star being named all NBA second team in his third season and helping the Nets win 46 games but rumors start to swirl as Kobe has not yet signed an extension and wont speak on what he intends to do.

In the 2001 all star game Kobe and AI lead the east back from 30 points down and Larry Brown falls in love with Kobe instead of Mutombo as he did in our world....so the Nets knowing Kobe is likely about to walk trade him at the deadline to the 76ers in a 3 way deal with the Kings for Ratliff, 2 first round picks, Peja and Jason Williams(kings get Billups from the Nets and Hill from the 76ers).

The AI/Kobe backcourt is the biggest story in the league. Phillys favorite adopted son teams up with the local legend.

They make the 2001 finals and lose in game 7 in LA to the Shaq/Antione Walker/Ron Mercer Lakers as Kobe and Ai combine for 82 points but Shaqs 52/24/7 blocks was too much and Walker sealed the deal with a transition 3 to make it a 5 point game with 40 seconds left.

02-06 Kobe and AI have a somewhat strained but effective partnership winning 62, 55, 56, and 49 games once again making the finals in 2005 to lose in 6 to the Spurs with Bruce bowen pretty much inside Kobes jersey all game wit hthe Spurs setup to help him leaving AI to play against Tony Parker who he outplayed but not by enough.

The blame game is played AI and Kobe reach a point they play together but dont speak once the buzzer sounds. Trade rumors begin and AI is traded in the 07 offseason to the blazers for Lamarcus Aldridge and Juan Dixon in a move Charles Barkley later has to apologize for calling "****ing retarded" on air.

Kobe and his young sidekick win a good number of games but he never again plays in the finals. He retires at 35 after 17 seasons a 15 time all star, the #2 scorer all time, a 9 time all NBA first teamer and having lost in the finals twice.







2.

Hes drafted by the Hornets...who keep him.

Kobe and his agent decide to pressure the Hornets into trading him by going overseas to talk to a european team hes considered playing for. Talks go well and Kobe signs a 2 year deal to play in Europe.

....for his former idol Mike Dantoni(Italian league coach at the time) who after Kobe assumes he gets to start because he was drafted in the NBA...quickly glues him to the bench to teach him humility and that he must earn everything. In year two he comes out humble, generous with the ball, and ready to play as one of 5 instead of 1 on 5. He wins the Italian league title and decides that he will come to the NBA. The Hornets still hold his rights and the newly humbled Kobe decides thats just fine. He signs in Charlotte when the lockout ends in 99 and along with a lanky German the league doesnt expect much from who was traded for Glen Rice on draft night leads the Hornets to glory.

Dirk and Kobe play utterly selfless ball along with a rag tag group of has beens and never weres and Kobe becomes first team all NBA as a 20 year old rookie putting up 21 points 9 assists and 6 rebounds a game on 53% shooting as they come in 3rd in the east. He wins ROY, makes all d second team, comes in 5th in MVP voting, and lobbys hard for his old coach to come over after the Hornets coach quit for family reasons.

Mike D, Kobe, and Dirk are the leaders of the new era. The team of the 2000s its predicted. In year two Kobe takes the next step leading his team to 63 wins as he puts up 23/9/9 on 51% shooting, wins DPOY, and comes in second in MVP voting to Shaq.....who he and Dirk meet in the finals and defeat in 5 games. Kobe puts up 18/13/9 in the finals on 73% shooting and is named the MVP.

A title he would get used to as he wins 3 finals MVPs on 4 title teams, 5 NBA MVPS, and leads the league in scoring, assists, steals, and FT% at different points of a brilliant ten season career that saw him retire after the 08 finals game 7 win during which he scored the Hornets last 26 points in the 4th after Dirk was ejected by Joey Crawford after Lebron flopped and got a 4 point play out of it. He finished game 7 with 38/9/7 and raised his final trophy before retiring at 30 to go be player/coach in the euroleague.

He retires being generally considered top 5 all time with the potential for #1 if he comes back(he swears he wont). He is the most humble and respected athlete of his era who aside from a sextape he had with Kim Kardashian* was never in the media for anything less than total praise.



*he met her through his brother in law Ray J....did I not mention he married brandy after the prom in this world? Got divorced in 2003..totally her fault.





3.

Hes drafted by the Hornets and traded for Vlade...all goes as we saw...until 2000 when Phil Jackson got pissed off and wanted to trade him to the Suns for Marion and Kidd(read Phils books...its in there). Hes a little more convincing to the Buss family in this world so Kobe is traded to the Suns to create "Backcourt 2.0" since Kidd/Penny(Backcourt 2000 if you remember that) broke up. It clearly doesnt work out as Penny still gets injured. Kobe is left with Cliff Robinson and a quickly falling off Gugliotta. Coach Skiles just turns him loose and Kobe at age 21 is unleashed 2003/2006 style to go win them games.

Which he does about as often as you would expect for a guy on a team bad enough that he has to take 29 shots a game.

He puts up

33/6/4
36/5/3
32/7/3
37/6/3

Over his first four seasons on the suns winning 44, 38, 49, and 43 games after which he signs a 7 year 110 million dollar deal. They draft TJ Ford and Josh Smith the next two years finally getting Kobe some help and he puts up 25/7/7 quieting doubts that he will never pass the ball and make an unlikely WCF run as Kobe puts up 44ppg knocking the 2 time defending champion Kings out in the second round.

But it ends there as they lose to the Dirk/Carmelo Mavs and that is the most playoff success he ever gets as leader.

They make quick exits the next several years with him eventually going back to his old ways and setting a post 60s ppg record 38.4 in a 39 win season. At age 31 he is an unrestricted free agent and signs in NY with Joe Johnson and Chris bosh and lose in the ECF to the Celtics in back to back years as Joe fails to show up and Chris Bosh pulls down 3rpg and gets slapped after game 6 by Kobe(for giving up on the team) which starts a brawl during which Kobe is caught on camera choking assistant coach Tyronn Lue which gets him suspended the entire 12-13 season before he appeals and has it reduced to 50 games.

He retires at the age of 42 having never won a ring but as the NBAs all time leading scorer well past 42,000 points and generally ranked just outside the top 10 all time with fans going as high as top 3..

[Kblaze8855]

My question for you is this.

If these universes existed and you could have one dvd from one world...which do you pick? You dont get any more information than I gave. these alternate universe DVDs are there for the choosing. You can only bring one to this world.


1. A special 2 hour DVD of The AI/Kobe 30 for 30 named "Brotherly Love" on the subject of Kobe and AI learning to coexist and AI always being Phillys favorite even with Kobe being in his "hometown" and the never before told story of why AI was traded in 07. Also...lockerroom footage of a Kobe/AI brawl from 03 during which Kobe lost a tooth and Iverson broke a knuckle. Also on the DVD...a 40 minute special detailing their epic 01 finals run and 2 candid 20 minute interviews with each talking about the other as players and people.

Included:

The full uncut NBA on NBC game(NBC kept the rights in this world) during which Kobe and AI became the only non Wilt involved teammates to ever combine for 110 points as Kobe dropped 60 and AI 53 in a triple OT loss to the Pistons.

The 20 greatest interview moments from the AI/Kobe years including a clip the dvd box calls "The tirade....uncensored for the first time ever".



2. The 3 hour 3 part life story of the most admired athlete of his era. Details Kobes travels all over europe and growth from punk kid to ultimate leader. Includes a full uncut original commentary game from the Euroleague finals, 1 from the NBA finals, and a "Kobes picks" section with Kobes own selection of his 3 favorite games including:

A masterful 18 points/22 assist/17 rebound/5 steal/4 block performance in the playoffs including a game winning.....left handed.....three point....floater....at the buzzer...in double OT.....over Yao Ming, Lebron James, and Patrick Ewing jr



A 12 point 29 assist game during which Dirk scored 50.



The first game of the 2000 season which is the only time their planned trio played together at full strength. You see...Tmac signed in Charlotte in 2000 and not Orlando. He became that worlds Grant Hill and tore his everything 2 minutes into game 2 and was never the same. But in game one the basketball world was put on notice as they somehow manged a triple triple double...with each of them having one and Tmac the leading scorer with 19 points. Legend has it Tmac was heard talking about how he just knew he made the right decision and would be a winner from here on out after that legendary game.

Then he turned into Shaun Livingston. But Kobe always considered him an inspiration so he included his one moment of greatness.




3. A career summary DVD along the lines of the Ultimate Jordan one which has career top 10s(dunks...assists...blocks) and extensive highlights of the 5 best games of Kobes Suns/Knicks career including:


91 point night in Toronto
86 point night in Phoenix vs the Nuggets
His 77 point 61 point second half game to stave off elimination vs the Kings in 2004
His 16 three 64 point game also vs the Raptors
His 58 point first game back in LA after Phil had him traded. Includes a dunk over Shaq that the dvd wrapper refers to simply as "The Dunk" which you assume must be famous in that universe



You get to pick a DVD. never get to see one clip of the others.

which dvd do you choose?

[zoom17]

Lets say parallel universes are proven to exist tomorrow and this is how 3 of them played out for Kobe.....this is all the info you are given.



1. Kobe is drafted #8 by the Nets as John Calipari always wanted and claimed he would have done if he thought Kobe would come. He has minimal impact as a rookie and they get a high pick the next year as well. Hoped to get duncan but got #2...selecting Billups instead. Kobe develops quickly into a star being named all NBA second team in his third season and helping the Nets win 46 games but rumors start to swirl as Kobe has not yet signed an extension and wont speak on what he intends to do.

In the 2001 all star game Kobe and AI lead the east back from 30 points down and Larry Brown falls in love with Kobe instead of Mutombo as he did in our world....so the Nets knowing Kobe is likely about to walk trade him at the deadline to the 76ers in a 3 way deal with the Kings for Ratliff, 2 first round picks, Peja and Jason Williams(kings get Billups from the Nets and Hill from the 76ers).

The AI/Kobe backcourt is the biggest story in the league. Phillys favorite adopted son teams up with the local legend.

They make the 2001 finals and lose in game 7 in LA to the Shaq/Antione Walker/Ron Mercer Lakers as Kobe and Ai combine for 82 points but Shaqs 52/24/7 blocks was too much and Walker sealed the deal with a transition 3 to make it a 5 point game with 40 seconds left.

02-06 Kobe and AI have a somewhat strained but effective partnership winning 62, 55, 56, and 49 games once again making the finals in 2005 to lose in 6 to the Spurs with Bruce bowen pretty much inside Kobes jersey all game wit hthe Spurs setup to help him leaving AI to play against Tony Parker who he outplayed but not by enough.

The blame game is played AI and Kobe reach a point they play together but dont speak once the buzzer sounds. Trade rumors begin and AI is traded in the 07 offseason to the blazers for Lamarcus Aldridge and Juan Dixon in a move Charles Barkley later has to apologize for calling "****ing retarded" on air.

Kobe and his young sidekick win a good number of games but he never again plays in the finals. He retires at 35 after 17 seasons a 15 time all star, the #2 scorer all time, a 9 time all NBA first teamer and having lost in the finals twice.







2.

Hes drafted by the Hornets...who keep him.

Kobe and his agent decide to pressure the Hornets into trading him by going overseas to talk to a european team hes considered playing for. Talks go well and Kobe signs a 2 year deal to play in Europe.

....for his former idol Mike Dantoni(Italian league coach at the time) who after Kobe assumes he gets to start because he was drafted in the NBA...quickly glues him to the bench to teach him humility and that he must earn everything. In year two he comes out humble, generous with the ball, and ready to play as one of 5 instead of 1 on 5. He wins the Italian league title and decides that he will come to the NBA. The Hornets still hold his rights and the newly humbled Kobe decides thats just fine. He signs in Charlotte when the lockout ends in 99 and along with a lanky German the league doesnt expect much from who was traded for Glen Rice on draft night leads the Hornets to glory.

Dirk and Kobe play utterly selfless ball along with a rag tag group of has beens and never weres and Kobe becomes first team all NBA as a 20 year old rookie putting up 21 points 9 assists and 6 rebounds a game on 53% shooting as they come in 3rd in the east. He wins ROY, makes all d second team, comes in 5th in MVP voting, and lobbys hard for his old coach to come over after the Hornets coach quit for family reasons.

Mike D, Kobe, and Dirk are the leaders of the new era. The team of the 2000s its predicted. In year two Kobe takes the next step leading his team to 63 wins as he puts up 23/9/9 on 51% shooting, wins DPOY, and comes in second in MVP voting to Shaq.....who he and Dirk meet in the finals and defeat in 5 games. Kobe puts up 18/13/9 in the finals on 73% shooting and is named the MVP.

A title he would get used to as he wins 3 finals MVPs on 4 title teams, 5 NBA MVPS, and leads the league in scoring, assists, steals, and FT% at different points of a brilliant ten season career that saw him retire after the 08 finals game 7 win during which he scored the Hornets last 26 points in the 4th after Dirk was ejected by Joey Crawford after Lebron flopped and got a 4 point play out of it. He finished game 7 with 38/9/7 and raised his final trophy before retiring at 30 to go be player/coach in the euroleague.

He retires being generally considered top 5 all time with the potential for #1 if he comes back(he swears he wont). He is the most humble and respected athlete of his era who aside from a sextape he had with Kim Kardashian* was never in the media for anything less than total praise.



*he met her through his brother in law Ray J....did I not mention he married brandy after the prom in this world? Got divorced in 2003..totally her fault.





3.

Hes drafted by the Hornets and traded for Vlade...all goes as we saw...until 2000 when Phil Jackson got pissed off and wanted to trade him to the Suns for Marion and Kidd(read Phils books...its in there). Hes a little more convincing to the Buss family in this world so Kobe is traded to the Suns to create "Backcourt 2.0" since Kidd/Penny(Backcourt 2000 if you remember that) broke up. It clearly doesnt work out as Penny still gets injured. Kobe is left with Cliff Robinson and a quickly falling off Gugliotta. Coach Skiles just turns him loose and Kobe at age 21 is unleashed 2003/2006 style to go win them games.

Which he does about as often as you would expect for a guy on a team bad enough that he has to take 29 shots a game.

He puts up

33/6/4
36/5/3
32/7/3
37/6/3

Over his first four seasons on the suns winning 44, 38, 49, and 43 games after which he signs a 7 year 110 million dollar deal. They draft TJ Ford and Josh Smith the next two years finally getting Kobe some help and he puts up 25/7/7 quieting doubts that he will never pass the ball and make an unlikely WCF run as Kobe puts up 44ppg knocking the 2 time defending champion Kings out in the second round.

But it ends there as they lose to the Dirk/Carmelo Mavs and that is the most playoff success he ever gets as leader.

They make quick exits the next several years with him eventually going back to his old ways and setting a post 60s ppg record 38.4 in a 39 win season. At age 31 he is an unrestricted free agent and signs in NY with Joe Johnson and Chris bosh and lose in the ECF to the Celtics in back to back years as Joe fails to show up and Chris Bosh pulls down 3rpg and gets slapped after game 6 by Kobe(for giving up on the team) which starts a brawl during which Kobe is caught on camera choking assistant coach Tyronn Lue which gets him suspended the entire 12-13 season before he appeals and has it reduced to 50 games.

He retires at the age of 42 having never won a ring but as the NBAs all time leading scorer well past 42,000 points and generally ranked just outside the top 10 all time with fans going as high as top 3..

Did not read:banana:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I think Kobe going to college, and playing under someone like Dean Smith/Krzyzewski is a more interesting hypothetical.

Is he a better player ? Still an average leader and high volume scorer? :confusedshrug:

[ballinhun8]

I'd have to go with DVD option number 1.



That just sounds awesome of the idea of seeing both those guys play together. Plus the behind the scenes sounds great. Not to mention what sounds like am awesome Finals against Shaw and Antoine (LoL) and Mercer. If he didn't sign with Chicago then who did we get? Losing him and TMac? Did we get Hill?

[inclinerator]

probably the last dvd

u have too much time on ur hands btw

[VIntageNOvel]

i would still go for real kobe tbh,
but if i have to choose, either 1 or 3
humble kobe isnt kobe
you should make #1 at least the same as he is now, win 2 FMVP,
to differentiate from #3,
since both #1 #3 have him retire with no ring, ill pick #3,
witnessing a greatest scorer ever > #1

[magnax1]

1-How long did it take to write all that?
2-Seeing a universe where kobe averages 9 assists would be interesting.

[eliteballer]

Definitely #2..and there's no way Kobe and AI would coexist for more than 2 seasons.

[Legends66NBA7]

Universes 1 and 3 would probably be a dream come true for all Bryant detractors. Universe 2 would be a version of Bryant that I always felt had the ability, but wasn't geared that way. That's the version I would ultimately like to see.

I like the DVD narrative too for that, but #1 might be the most funny of the 3. I like how Toronto is still the main target to Bryant's bitch slapping, though. Even parallel universes, were getting owned by all-time greats.

[NumberSix]

The hornets picking Kobe was never their pick to keep in the first place.

[Bobby13]

#2 for sure. DVD and universe both

73% shooting in the 2000 Finals and multiple 50%+ shooting seasons. If Kobe had those shooting numbers in that universe, I can't imagine the kind of shooting numbers Dirk would put up :cheers:

One game of Dirk/Kobe/TMac? :bowdown:

[SamuraiSWISH]

I think Kobe going to college, and playing under someone like Dean Smith/Krzyzewski is a more interesting hypothetical.
And comes into the league more physically, and mentally mature. His debut season 1999 - 2000. That would've been my ideal form of Bryant. I feel with those coaches he could've actually maximized his capabilities. Learned to be a man in college under the right leader. Being in college would've forced his then awkward social abilities, making him a better leader.

[inclinerator]

actually i changed my pick to 2 since 3 is basically like the kobe we know anyways

[jcsrplumply]

Option #2 with Dirk definitely and I'd go with the DVD (AI KOBE)too.

[Kblaze8855]

And comes into the league more physically, and mentally mature. His debut season 1999 - 2000. That would've been my ideal form of Bryant. I feel with those coaches he could've actually maximized his capabilities. Learned to be a man in college under the right leader. Being in college would've forced his then awkward social abilities, making him a better leader.

If he comes out in 99 I guess hes a Bull or goes to Vancouver. And if its 2000 its the Nets or again...the Grizzlies.

I dont know how well that goes. Kobe/Marbury would be interesting. Maybe Marbury still gets traded for Kidd.....the Nets are Kidd/Kobe/KVH?

How long till some smartass on ISH names them the KKK?

[TheMarkMadsen]

If he comes out in 99 I guess hes a Bull or goes to Vancouver. And if its 2000 its the Nets or again...the Grizzlies.

I dont know how well that goes. Kobe/Marbury would be interesting. Maybe Marbury still gets traded for Kidd.....the Nets are Kidd/Kobe/KVH?

How long till some smartass on ISH names them the KKK?


The absolute worst thing that could have happened to any young hyped shooting guard with unrealistic expectations from the media would to have been being drafted by the Chicago bulls in 1999

[Kblaze8855]

The absolute worst thing that could have happened to any young hyped shooting guard with unrealistic expectations from the media would to have been being drafted by the Chicago bulls in 1999

True.

And Kobe with Bj Armstrong, Kukoc, Hawkins, Ron Artest, Randy Brown, and Chris Carr?

He would have killed one of those dudes.

[Legends66NBA7]

True.

And Kobe with Bj Armstrong, Kukoc, Hawkins, Ron Artest, Randy Brown, and Chris Carr?

He would have killed one of those dudes.

Well, I think it's safe to say he wouldn't kill Artest. He would probably treat Kukoc like he treats Gasol.

[rzp]

Did not read:banana:

me2 :lol

[BoutPractice]

Damn, I must be very bored indeed.

Normally as a Dirk fan I'd want to see what an universe where he won 4 titles (and presumably a FMVP too) looks like, plus the whole idea of the Kobe/Dirk duo is interesting. But honestly I have a hard time believing that path is even possible... The thing is, contrary to what's often said, there are tons of reckless gunners, especially guards, in European leagues... Some personalities are just stronger than the culture, and Kobe is DEFINITELY one of those personalities. I don't think there's any scenario where he would not want to be the guy who scores all the points. That's what basketball is all about for him, that's why he loves the game, he wants to be the hero on your television.

Universe number 3 looks too much like our own. 82 or 91 points, is there really a difference?

So in the end I'll probably choose DVD 1. My main reason? "The tirade... uncensored for the first time ever". I would pay for that.

[Scholar]

I'd go with #2 because that'd be the Kobe we would've seen if he truly did find Magic Johnson to be his favorite player as a kid.

[riseagainst]

I lost it with the whole sextape with Kim K thing. and the Lebron* flop thing.

:roll: :roll:

[MaxFly]

Hilarious.... 1 has to be it. That would be outstanding.

[AintNoSunshine]

You have too much time on your hand, why is everyone of your posts long essays? and why did you write 3 1000 words essays on fictional scenarios which could also have led to 500 other possibilities?

[Djahjaga]

Wow, did not expect the DVD question. This is pretty cool. Nice change of pace.


Really hard to answer, but I think, at my core, I like seeing good, successful basketball. And seeing a humble Kobe is such a huge bonus that I can't pass that up. Then you throw in one of my favorite big men in Dirk -- has to be choice 2 for me.

But really good job at making all of them interesting. :cheers:

[longtime lurker]

I'd go with Kobe's career as it's gone thus far. Formed one of the greatest duos the NBA has ever seen, then goes on to win two more titles and now maybe recovers from a devastating injury to become the NBA's all time leading scorer :confusedshrug:

Although I'd like to see number 1 just for the pure comedy of watching Iverson and Kobe play together :oldlol:

[I<3NBA]

in any alternate universe where Kobe does not play in LA, i can guarantee an AI-like kind of career.

[Kblaze8855]

Universe number 3 looks too much like our own. 82 or 91 points, is there really a difference?

Id say so. But I wish I could get more than the DVD. I bet Kobe during a 38-39ppg season has a 50 point month in there.

I can even imagine video makers of that universe cutting in old footage of Russell talking about Wilt saying "50...thats his average....every game" with Kobe raining on Toronto or having 68 to end the 3rd vs the Nets and 54 in the first half vs the Celtics the next night only to finish with 72.

[Mr. Jabbar]

give me dvd #1 please :bowdown: , kobe/ai backcourt is something you dont ever say no too..and i know this is just hypotheticals but ai/kobe backcourt would have been to much for shaq to handle, dont think they'd lose

[I<3NBA]

give me dvd #1 please :bowdown: , kobe/ai backcourt is something you dont ever say no too..and i know this is just hypotheticals but ai/kobe backcourt would have been to much for shaq to handle, dont think they'd lose
there's only one ball fool. 2 ballhogs can't succeed.

[Mr. Jabbar]

there's only one ball fool. 2 ballhogs can't succeed.

i think there may be more chemistry than many think with those 2, anyway with only one season playing out well that dvd is still more fun than the other 2.

[andgar923]

In year two he comes out humble, generous with the ball:roll: :roll: :roll:

[0000000]

Sorry man, can't read all of that and some of those scenarios sound weird.
For one, no way Kobe and AI lose to Shaq/Antonie Walker. Get real.
Shaq failed to win with much better players than Antoine Walker. Just shows how underrated Kobe is here IMO, especially Kobe in early 2000's.

Which brings me to my point.

If Kobe never played with Shaq, his legacy would be much greater IMO. Most people look at Kobe post Shaq when assessing him anyway. Without Shaq, he'd have solidified himself as the greatest scorer ever with who knows how many 60, 70 and 80 point games. Likely 3 times more of each than he has on his resume as it is, if not more, And with someone like Pau, he'd have won a ring or two as well IMO.

The one person Kobe needed much more than Shaq was Phil Jackson IMO. It's no coincidence he never really had a winning season without Phil. I'm confident in Kobe without Shaq, he could've done it. Kobe outside of the triangle offense...not so sure..kinda skeptical. He needed Phil's great coaching and possibly the triangle as well much more than he needed Shaq.

[Black and White]

:lol slapping Chris Bosh

[Kblaze8855]

For one, no way Kobe and AI lose to Shaq/
Antonie Walker. Get real.
Shaq failed to win with much better players than
Antoine Walker.



And Dirk lost with better players than Terry and past their primes Marion and Kidd.

And they played more talent than AI, Kobe, and Mckie.

It isn't as simple as talent. Besides......shaq....toine...mercer....Horry.....P hil coaching. Great team if Walker plays like he did 97-2000.

[0000000]

And Dirk lost with better players than Terry and past their primes Marion and Kidd.

And they played more talent than AI, Kobe, and Mckie.

It isn't as simple as talent. Besides......shaq....toine...mercer....Horry.....P hil coaching. Great team if Walker plays like he did 97-2000.


That team doesn't get out of west in any of the Lakers 3peat years. As silly as it it is speaking convincingly about hypothetical events, that's one I'm pretty much 100 % sure of. I"ll go even further. Say Chris Webber's injured. Spurs will take them. Say Duncan is injured. Kings will take them. 2000 Suns will take them as well. Hell, Blazers almost beat the Lakers as it was. No way that team of yours stood a chance in west at the time. I say with utmost confidence that there were always at least 2 better teams in the west than those hypothetical Lakers you put together. Honestly, to me they don't look better on paper than KG led TWolves.

Besides, Lakers had a team with prime Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel and young Kobe...couldn't sniff the finals. And I rate both Jones and NVE as high as prime Antoine. He was pretty good but west was a different animal at the time.

Phil was the difference, sure. But to minimize Kobe like that is just silly IMO.
This is probably the first thing you ever posted that I flat out disagree with, that sounds silly to me, even though it's a hypothetical statement and a thread to participate in if one's bored.

[Kblaze8855]

I'll just say you dont seem to think Antione Walker had the potential I did. Never liked what he became....but coming out of college and his first few years? He was 6'9'' with guard handles, 3 point range, a bit of a post game, and the passing of a point guard. Hes clearly not Kobe. But under Phil...head kept on straight....he and a 20ppg Ron Mercer could replace Kobe when teamed with prime Shaq.

Mercer alone replaces much of the scoring though clearly not in the same way and not with as much talent. As a #3...he might put up 13-16 a gme. With Shaqs 30 and Antiones 22/8/5 or so?

Worse defense...Kobe played defense back then....but that team could contend. Every team Shaq was on from his third season to 2007 contended.

[andgar923]

I'll just say you dont seem to think Antione Walker had the potential I did. Never liked what he became....but coming out of college and his first few years? He was 6'9'' with guard handles, 3 point range, a bit of a post game, and the passing of a point guard. Hes clearly not Kobe. But under Phil...head kept on straight....he and a 20ppg Ron Mercer could replace Kobe when teamed with prime Shaq.

Mercer alone replaces much of the scoring though clearly not in the same way and not with as much talent. As a #3...he might put up 13-16 a gme. With Shaqs 30 and Antiones 22/8/5 or so?

Worse defense...Kobe played defense back then....but that team could contend. Every team Shaq was on from his third season to 2007 contended.

Having any all star caliber with Shaq automatically makes that player noticeably better.

The amount of freedom that player receives due to the amount of double and triple teams Shaq receives is extremely underrated by some people. Even more underrated is the pressure Shaq puts on a team's foul availability. Shaq draws fouls galore and that hinders the entire defense not just the bigs guarding him. So even perimeter players are playing very conservative defense, which obviously makes the offensive player's job easier.

Something else that gets unnoticed by some, is the amount of mismatches that Shaq brings to the table. If you're somebody like Antoine who is already a tough matchup, you'll receive even more mismatch opportunities since Shaq makes the defense scramble like crazy. Teams need to double on Shaq on every possession, and Shaq is a great passer. While his initial pass may not lead to a mismatch a second pass will, all as a result of the defense scrambling.

A player like Antoine Walker will be a much better player with easier opportunities due to wide open looks, closer shots to the basket and his passing to Shaq will puzzle the defense.

Ron Mercer just like any other player will benefit from Shaq's presence. With both Shaq and Antoine creating mismatch issues, teams afraid to foul, open lanes, wide open looks, will lead to Mercer scoring at a higher percentage. He was athletic to get to the rim and finish and a capable/solid defender. Have Shaq in the paint to erase mistakes and he becomes a good-excellent defender since he'd be able to put more pressure and gamble.

Put just about any All star caliber player with Shaq and they go to the Finals no doubt.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Having any all star caliber with Shaq automatically makes that player noticeably better.

The amount of freedom that player receives due to the amount of double and triple teams Shaq receives is extremely underrated by some people. Even more underrated is the pressure Shaq puts on a team's foul availability. Shaq draws fouls galore and that hinders the entire defense not just the bigs guarding him. So even perimeter players are playing very conservative defense, which obviously makes the offensive player's job easier.

Something else that gets unnoticed by some, is the amount of mismatches that Shaq brings to the table. If you're somebody like Antoine who is already a tough matchup, you'll receive even more mismatch opportunities since Shaq makes the defense scramble like crazy. Teams need to double on Shaq on every possession, and Shaq is a great passer. While his initial pass may not lead to a mismatch a second pass will, all as a result of the defense scrambling.

A player like Antoine Walker will be a much better player with easier opportunities due to wide open looks, closer shots to the basket and his passing to Shaq will puzzle the defense.

Ron Mercer just like any other player will benefit from Shaq's presence. With both Shaq and Antoine creating mismatch issues, teams afraid to foul, open lanes, wide open looks, will lead to Mercer scoring at a higher percentage. He was athletic to get to the rim and finish and a capable/solid defender. Have Shaq in the paint to erase mistakes and he becomes a good-excellent defender since he'd be able to put more pressure and gamble.

Put just about any All star caliber player with Shaq and they go to the Finals no doubt.

96, 97, 98, 99, 03, 05, 07?

[Kblaze8855]

Too many great players for anyone to go every year. He went 6 times with 3-4 pretty different groups of teammates. And was in the conference finals like 4 of the years he didnt go. His team was in the final 4 remaining 10 years of the 13 he was something close to his prime. Thats plenty.

[andgar923]

96, 97, 98, 99, 03, 05, 07?
he can't go every season, and you're also padding by including past prime and young Shaq.

I thought it was an obvious assumption that we were referring to 'prime' Shaq.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Too many great players for anyone to go every year. He went 6 times with 3-4 pretty different groups of teammates. Thats plenty.

94-07 is the span of Shaq we're talking about

Shaq had an all star on his team for 12 of those years.

His claim was "you put an all star caliber player next to Shaq and you make the finals no doubt"

Shaq Made the finals in 95, 00, 01, 02, 04 & 06.

3 of those finals trips he had a 1st team ALL NBA player beside him

the other 3 he had a 2nd team ALL NBA player beside him.

so his statement about putting any all star caliber player next to Shaq and they go to final no doubt should be changed to a 1st or 2nd team ALL NBA player

[Kblaze8855]

If you put Magic and Jordan on one team they wouldnt make the finals 15 times in a row. We really need to get that literal?

[TheMarkMadsen]

If you put Magic and Jordan on one team they wouldnt make the finals 15 times in a row. We really need to get that literal?


:facepalm

there was only 1 instance which Jordan had an all star teammate and didn't make the finals, every other year he had an all star teammate, they made/ won the finals

terrible example to use..

What are you even on about? Dude said put any all star next to Shaq and they make the finals, which simply isn't true. That can be said for Jordan.

[Kblaze8855]

Considering the fact that....as you said...Jordan did not make the finals with every team that had an all star...no it cant. Unless of course you accept hyperbole to make a point as a standard tactic. One you yourself seem to have just used.

So you....get it...you just choose to ignore it on matters you disagree with.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Considering the fact that....as you said...Jordan did not make the finals with every team that had an all star...no it cant. Unless of course you accept hyperbole to make a point as a standard tactic. One you yourself seem to have just used.

So you....get it...you just choose to ignore it on matters you disagree with.


so you want to say it's a hyperbole to say Jordan makes the finals with an all star teammate only because he didn't do it ONE time

but according to you it's not a hyperbole to say Shaq no doubt makes the finals with an all star teammate when he didn't do it 5+ times.. which is what i was originally responding to.

:lol

[Kblaze8855]

I hope im just not being clear and this isnt a reading comprehension issue......

[Jailblazers7]

This is one of the most entertaining threads I've read on ISH. :oldlol:

DVD question, I think I would go with option #3. The youtube mixes and highlights would be unreal and I don't really care about all the legacy stuff, especially if I don't get to enjoy option #2 as a fully grown adult with a deep appreciation for the nuances of the game.

#1 would be incredible but my childhood nostalgia is preventing me from picking it. Real life AI and the Sixers is what made me fall in love with bball so I wouldn't want to see that changed.

[TheBigVeto]

2-Seeing a universe where kobe averages 9 assists would be interesting.

That would be the universe where water isn't wet and the sun isn't hot.