Let's talk about Kevin Durant

[scm5]

At just 24 years old, he just put up a 28/8/5 season on 51/42/90 or 65% TS%

He took on more responsibilities during the playoffs with WB going down and became OKC's primary playmaker.

He did this and put up 31/9/6 on 57% TS%

He is actually the best perimeter defender in terms of man-defense going purely off advanced statistics. In terms of help defense, he is also pretty tremendous. 1.4spg and 1.3bpg.

His length and agility/mobility for his size bothers players a lot and while he doesn't have the best defensive instincts, his length physical attributes help him bother players. He can only improve in terms of defense, and that's scary.

Durant pretty much has a complete offensive game and will even take you in the post. Don't believe me? http://hoopchalk.com/2013/01/27/isolating-kevin-durant-in-the-post/

He's shown an incredible improvement in that aspect of the game and has even been seen doing Dirk's one legged fadeaway: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQXlfMhwUoo

Since he's just 24 and very much a skilled player, he's probably going to improve over time. What do you think his peak stats will be? Where do you think he will end up in terms of all time rankings?

[Legends66NBA7]

Not sure about peak numbers but I think if he continues to improve his play, most would regard him in the Top 20-25 all-time, IMO.

[aj1987]

Since he's just 24 and very much a skilled player, he's probably going to improve over time. What do you think his peak stats will be? Where do you think he will end up in terms of all time rankings?
Barring injuries, he might end up anywhere in the top 15. Dude is still improving so much. He actually might end up in the top 5, if he lives up to his potential.

[K Xerxes]

His max potential would be lower half of the top 10. He will have a super peak if his defense can just improve to elite standard considering his offensive game is so lethal right now.

I see him ending up top 15-20 all time.

[Suguru101]

Barring injuries, he might end up anywhere in the top 15. Dude is still improving so much. He actually might end up in the top 5, if he lives up to his potential.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/008/491/dafuq.jpg

Relax bro..

On topic: Advanced stats don't really prove much. Coaches around the league game plan against him, see him at least twice a season, and they don't consider him an All-NBA Defender. So those defensive stats are probably misleading.

[SilkkTheShocker]

His defense really isn't that good.

[FreezingTsmoove]

Without a doubt in my mind when its all said and done the all time scoring list will look

1. Durant
2. Kobe
3. Lebron

I actually looked at Durants overall points scored compared to Malone 6 seasons in and its shockingly similar. He can probably play till he's 40 with his jumpshot. I have a feeling Durant will shatter the points record. What an era we live in :applause:

People dont realize the pace Durant is on. I have done much research on the current scoring pace so you can take my claim seriously

[rhythmic]

Not sure about peak numbers but I think if he continues to improve his play, most would regard him in the Top 20-25 all-time, IMO.

This makes no sense to me, I'm sorry.
If he continues to put up those numbers, then what exactly makes Bird better?

If Durant has 5-6 more seasons like he did in 2012/13, and wins 2-3 championships. Wins 1-2 MVP's, then we're looking at a top 15 player easy.

[Unbiased_one]

This makes no sense to me, I'm sorry.
If he continues to put up those numbers, then what exactly makes Bird better?

If Durant has 5-6 more seasons like he did in 2012/13, and wins 2-3 championships. Wins 1-2 MVP's, then we're looking at a top 15 player easy.

If Durant has 6 more seasons like last year he's a top 15 player regardless of rings. Lost in lebron's great season was durant's.

[Legends66NBA7]

I'll round up some names to see who Durant needs to get in the Top 25. No order, who I see in most arbitrary Top 25's or at least who I think are clearly above him right now:

Magic Johnson
Wilt Chamberlain
Michael Jordan
Bill Russell
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Hakeem Olajuwon
Moses Malone
Larry Bird
Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Shaquille O'Neal
Charles Barkley
Karl Malone
LeBron James
Bob Pettit
Kevin Garnett
Julius Erving
Dwyane Wade
Scottie Pippen
Dirk Nowitzki
Elgin Baylor
John Havlicek
Isiah Thomas

[Mr Exlax]

The sucky part is that he'll never be truly appreciated because he's always gonna be in the shadow of LeBron. He's a hell of a player already, but he doesn't get the real amount of credit he deserves. My way of thinking though, I don't take championships into consideration at all when I'm ranking players. When I rank players, I rank by skill level and impact and shit like that. Not so much in team accomplishments.

[FireDavidKahn]

Too bad he isn't as good as Lebron

[aj1987]

Relax bro..

MIGHT is the operative word. Dude has so much potential, it's crazy. He's only 24 and has another 8-12 years of his career list.
Dude just put up 28/8/5 on 50/40/90 and he's only 24. I do hate on the guy from time to time, but you can't deny greatness when you see it.

[ILLsmak]

Barring injuries, he might end up anywhere in the top 15. Dude is still improving so much. He actually might end up in the top 5, if he lives up to his potential.

It's all about rings. If KD was winning rings doing what he's doing now, people would be saying he's top 15. He's not, tho, yet...

I think he can be top 15, he's a great player. He's just not there yet, but most people took awhile longer to win.

I don't feel his stats will change much. It'll be his wins. Hopefully he can get a couple rings.

-Smak

[Frozen1]

In the 2013 playoffs, without Westbrook, KD won 2 games and lost 6.

[Is He Ill]

The sucky part is that he'll never be truly appreciated because he's always gonna be in the shadow of LeBron. He's a hell of a player already, but he doesn't get the real amount of credit he deserves. My way of thinking though, I don't take championships into consideration at all when I'm ranking players. When I rank players, I rank by skill level and impact and shit like that. Not so much in team accomplishments.

IDK, 3 or 4 years from now he may be the best player in the league. Aside from that, he still has plenty of time to win championships. We haven't seen the best of KD yet. Once LBJ starts to decline, KD will be entering his prime. He doesn't get the credit he deserves, but that doesn't mean that he never will.

[KG215]

If you were ranking every player ever on just their best/peak season, 2013 Durant would have a case for top 20 or so...and he's still 3-5 years away from when players generally peak. It's going to be hard to top 28-8-5, 50/40/90 statistically, though. That doesn't mean he won't improve as a player, though. I think we're only a year or two away from him making deserved All-Defensive teams on top of maybe an MVP or two and All-NBA 1st teams for the foreseeable future.

He also has the kind of game that lends itself to very good longevity due to being very skilled. I think as he continues to grow as a player, he'll operate even more from the mid and high post kind of like Dirk. But let's say, 2013 included, he's beginning a 5-7 year stretch where he puts up averages 27-8-5-1-1 on his usual great efficiency, wins a couple of MVP's, another 5-7 All-NBA 1st teams, and a few All-Defensive teams (1st or 2nd team), I think he'll have the resume to be considered a top 20 player even without ever winning a ring. If he wins a ring or two or three on top of all that, it's not out of the question that he could at least flirt with top 10 discussion, and top 15 would be a lock.

[Mr Exlax]

IDK, 3 or 4 years from now he may be the best player in the league. Aside from that, he still has plenty of time to win championships. We haven't seen the best of KD yet. Once LBJ starts to decline, KD will be entering his prime. He doesn't get the credit he deserves, but that doesn't mean that he never will.

I keep forgetting about the age difference between the two. It's KD's body though. I think as long as he's as skinny as he is, he'll never be better than LB. Even when LB starts to decline. I could very well be wrong though lol. Screw him though. He said this his city during one the playoff games here. I'm still pissed about that.

[CanYouDigIt]

At just 24 years old, he just put up a 28/8/5 season on 51/42/90 or 65% TS%

He took on more responsibilities during the playoffs with WB going down and became OKC's primary playmaker.

He did this and put up 31/9/6 on 57% TS%

He is actually the best perimeter defender in terms of man-defense going purely off advanced statistics. In terms of help defense, he is also pretty tremendous. 1.4spg and 1.3bpg.

His length and agility/mobility for his size bothers players a lot and while he doesn't have the best defensive instincts, his length physical attributes help him bother players. He can only improve in terms of defense, and that's scary.

Durant pretty much has a complete offensive game and will even take you in the post. Don't believe me? http://hoopchalk.com/2013/01/27/isolating-kevin-durant-in-the-post/

He's shown an incredible improvement in that aspect of the game and has even been seen doing Dirk's one legged fadeaway: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQXlfMhwUoo

Since he's just 24 and very much a skilled player, he's probably going to improve over time. What do you think his peak stats will be? Where do you think he will end up in terms of all time rankings?


Are you saying Lebron > Kobe? :coleman:

[KG215]

In the 2013 playoffs, without Westbrook, KD won 2 games and lost 6.
Right, and it was clear Durant's play was the biggest reason why. It had nothing to do with Martin and Ibaka being inconsistent and/or bad, and he and the rest of the team having to adjust mid-playoffs, on the fly, to playing without their highest usage player. Those were definitely normal circumstances that I'm sure every other elite player and their team would've just adjusted to with ease, and continued winning games against playoff caliber competition.

[scm5]

In the 2013 playoffs, without Westbrook, KD won 2 games and lost 6.

Westbrook is a huge asset to lose in the playoffs, especially against a good defensive team like the Grizzlies.

[Trollsmasher]

Lol at "deserved defensive teams" for Durant:lol

That is a loooooooong way ahead of him.

[KG215]

I keep forgetting about the age difference between the two. It's KD's body though. I think as long as he's as skinny as he is, he'll never be better than LB. Even when LB starts to decline. I could very well be wrong though lol. Screw him though. He said this his city during one the playoff games here. I'm still pissed about that.
Eh...the gap between LeBron and Durant right now isn't as big as the LeBron fanboys make it out to be. I mean there's still a noticeable gap, but not one that's insurmountable or anything. By every statistical (basic and advanced) measure, they were pretty damn close this year, and were possibly on another collision course to meet in the Finals again had Westbrook not gotten hurt.

I don't think it's out of the question that Durant, when he's entering that age range when players generally peak (27-30), is considered better than LeBron when he's in his early and mid 30's.

[Mr Exlax]

In the 2013 playoffs, without Westbrook, KD won 2 games and lost 6.

Ummmm what exactly would you have wanted KD to do better then? How many more points, rebs, assists and steals was he supposed to average then?

[Budadiiii]

Westbrook is a huge asset to lose in the playoffs, especially against a good defensive team like the Grizzlies.
Indeed. Clearly the best PG in the league. The load that KD and RW have to carry on their shoulders is comparable to the ancient egyptians building the pyramids.

[Mr Exlax]

Eh...the gap between LeBron and Durant right now isn't as big as the LeBron fanboys make it out to be. I mean there's still a noticeable gap, but not one that's insurmountable or anything. By every statistical (basic and advanced) measure, they were pretty damn close this year, and were possibly on another collision course to meet in the Finals again had Westbrook not gotten hurt.

I don't think it's out of the question that Durant, when he's entering that age range when players generally peak (27-30), is considered better than LeBron when he's in his early and mid 30's.

See I'm not a fanboy I don't think. The reason why I think the gap is so large is because of the results this season when they played head to head. Durant looked amazing against everybody except for LeBron James. I can't remember all the stats, but I know games this season he didn't do shit when LeBron was defending him and then he did when LeBron wasn't. That's partially the only reason why the gap for me. Love them both though.

[KG215]

Lol at "deserved defensive teams" for Durant:lol

That is a loooooooong way ahead of him.
He was very solid defensively this year. Not elite or anything, but this was the first season the eye test matched the statistics; the latter of which have been in his favor for a couple of seasons now. But I felt like this was the first season that what I saw from him defensively actually, rightfully, matched what the numbers say. Like someone said, his defensive fundamentals and instincts still need improving, but he's still a very solid on-ball and of-ball defender, and then numbers back that up.

[KyleKong]

If he averages 27-30 PPG for the next 10 years of his career, I would be him in the top 15.

He needs MVPs, Titles, and a lot better defense to break into the top 10.

[KG215]

See I'm not a fanboy I don't think. The reason why I think the gap is so large is because of the results this season when they played head to head. Durant looked amazing against everybody except for LeBron James. I can't remember all the stats, but I know games this season he didn't do shit when LeBron was defending him and then he did when LeBron wasn't. That's partially the only reason why the gap for me. Love them both though.
Eh, I'll give you the second game, but that was mostly the first half where Durant looked like shit. He still ended up scoring 40 points, but that was in large part due to him going into "f**k it" mode most of the seccond half, and actually being aggressive on offense while trying to erase a big deficit. Don't know what his deal was in the 1st half, though, because he just didn't look good...at all.

But the first game, he played very well. The 1st half was a repeat of the Finals where he got in foul trouble and was in-and-out of the game most of the half. I don't remember his exact numbers, but he scored 25+ in the second half, and finished with 30+ for the game, and it was a close, back-and-forth game.

[pauk]

I'll round up some names to see who Durant needs to get in the Top 25. No order, who I see in most arbitrary Top 25's or at least who I think are clearly above him right now:

Magic Johnson
Wilt Chamberlain
Michael Jordan
Bill Russell
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Hakeem Olajuwon
Moses Malone
Larry Bird
Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Shaquille O'Neal
Charles Barkley
Karl Malone
LeBron James
Bob Pettit
Kevin Garnett
Julius Erving
Dwyane Wade
Scottie Pippen
Dirk Nowitzki
Elgin Baylor
John Havlicek
Isiah Thomas

I seriously hope that is not in order... :D

Anyways... yea Kevin Durant is pretty damn good... all he needs is accolades... wont be so easy with you know who is around....

[Young X]

I thought very highly of his ridiculous regular season and of him as a player. I was getting ready to crown him as possibly a top 5 scorer in NBA history...

But then the Grizzlies series made me question whether he could carry a team on his back with low offensive support. Yes I know it's a small sample size and Memphis is an elite defensive team, but that didn't stop Chris Paul from being effective against that same team individually. I'm starting to think Westbrook helps his efficiency more than we think. Can any OKC fan convince me otherwise?

[Budadiiii]

I seriously hope that is not in order... :D


Top 25. No order

So read up, about how I used to get beat up peed on, be on free lunch, and change school every 3 months. :rolleyes:

[SamuraiSWISH]

I thought very highly of his ridiculous regular season and of him as a player. I was getting ready to crown him as possibly a top 5 scorer in NBA history...

But then the Grizzlies series made me question whether he could carry a team on his back with low offensive support. Yes I know it's a small sample size and Memphis is an elite defensive team, but that didn't stop Chris Paul from being effective against that same team individually. I'm starting to think Westbrook helps his efficiency more than we think. Can any OKC fan convince me otherwise?
Co-Sign, everything. Not to mention, that meek frame of his. All you have to do is body him once he gets past the half court line and he gets mad timid because he can't physically shed a defender. Those narrow feminine shoulders, and lack of physicality disrupt him quite a bit. Ron Artest usually eats his lunch. KD would be totally different if he came into a pre-2005 NBA.

[nathanjizzle]

durant will never be that man.

[zoom17]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/008/491/dafuq.jpg

Relax bro..

On topic: Advanced stats don't really prove much. Coaches around the league game plan against him, see him at least twice a season, and they don't consider him an All-NBA Defender. So those defensive stats are probably misleading.

lol

[madmax]

if he wants to win, his stats will have to take a dip and he will have to dedicate himself to the defensive side of the ball too. Without D you cannot win in this league - it's as simple as that. That's why Lebron is a GOAT candidate, while Durant is just a modern day George Gervin

[KG215]

I thought very highly of his ridiculous regular season and of him as a player. I was getting ready to crown him as possibly a top 5 scorer in NBA history...

But then the Grizzlies series made me question whether he could carry a team on his back with low offensive support. Yes I know it's a small sample size and Memphis is an elite defensive team, but that didn't stop Chris Paul from being effective against that same team individually. I'm starting to think Westbrook helps his efficiency more than we think. Can any OKC fan convince me otherwise?
The Thunder, without Westbrook, have less offensive support for Durant than the Clippers do for Chris Paul. OKC isn't constructed to support just one high usage/elite player. Their role players are mostly defensive players who fill a specific offensive role. Their two 3P specialists (Martin and Thabo) were really inconsistent in the series, and OKC has no low-post threats...Ibaka's jumpshot jut completely abandoned him.

Memphis was just loading up on Durant, double and triple teaming him most of the game (and every 4th quarter) and it worked. In the first 3 games of hte series he averaged 32-12-7 on 50% shooting and 60% TS. Then he just ran out of gas and sucked in the last two games. He had two great games, one good game, and two shit games.

If you want to use that small sample size under those conditions to feel uneasy about him in the role you mentioned, fine, but understand that OKC isn't built to properly support just one All-NBA/All-Star caliber player. The front-office has been spending the last 5 years putting pieces around two All-NBA/All-Star caliber players, so when you remove one of them you have players who are very limited as offensive threats.

You also have to realize if you hypothetically just removed Westbrook from the team for good, you'd get to replace him with two other players who take up the $13-$15M/year he's going o be making. So you add another player who can create his own shot and shoot from the perimeter, and maybe a solid low post threat. It wouldn't just be Durant, Reggie, Ibaka, Thabo, Collison, Lamb, etc. You'd be adding another one or two [hopefully] semi-capable offensive players since that's what OKC would need the most if they lost Westbrook.

[Scholar]

If KD can keep this up, I expect many MVP awards coming his way.

[KG215]

Co-Sign, everything. Not to mention, that meek frame of his. All you have to do is body him once he gets past the half court line and he gets mad timid because he can't physically shed a defender. Those narrow feminine shoulders, and lack of physicality disrupt him quite a bit. Ron Artest usually eats his lunch. KD would be totally different if he came into a pre-2005 NBA.
Artest hasn't "ate Durant's lunch" in several years. Yes, bigger, stronger defenders cause Durant the most problems, but he's progressed enough to the point where he still finds a way to score at a reasonably high efficiency against them. Durant would get his points at a pretty efficient clip in any era. Maybe/probably not to this same extent, but he'd still be a great high volume scorer.

[Young X]

@ KG215

1. That's true, but you're forgetting that Griffin sprained his ankle and was useless for the last 2 games - That still didn't affect Paul's effectiveness.

2. You're probably right about the sample size, I just found it weird that Durant had his worst stretch of games of the whole season in that series especially without Westbrook. It made me question how dependent he is on his teammates to be effective.

3. What type of numbers do you feel Durant would put up without WB especially his efficiency?

4. Where do you rank '13 Durant in terms of top scorers in NBA history?

[Suguru101]

Eh...the gap between LeBron and Durant right now isn't as big as the LeBron fanboys make it out to be. I mean there's still a noticeable gap, but not one that's insurmountable or anything. By every statistical (basic and advanced) measure, they were pretty damn close this year, and were possibly on another collision course to meet in the Finals again had Westbrook not gotten hurt.

I don't think it's out of the question that Durant, when he's entering that age range when players generally peak (27-30), is considered better than LeBron when he's in his early and mid 30's.

The gap isn't that big? Everytime the Heat play the Thunder, Durant is put on Chalmers for stretches of the game. And Chalmers goes off.

Talk to me when Durant can guard LeBron for the whole game without fouling out or looking spent on the other side of the floor. Or when Durant can guard 4 positions effectively, or hold MVP caliber point guards to 6% shooting.

The gap is still pretty big. Stats won't tell you the whole story, look at the games. LeBron is playing at a top 5 level. Durant is playing like a top 25 player. Stop making stats the all-be end all.

[DirkNowitzki41]

He's incredible. I love watching him because he somewhat reminds me of Dirk but with freakish athleticism.

His defense isn't great, but he has been improving and he does have the tools to become elite on that end.

I think next year he gets the MVP award. Durant was doing it all in the playoffs yet his team was playing pretty trash. Overall, he's not as good as LeBron obviously, but I think it's closer than people think.

[PickernRoller]

He is actually the best perimeter defender in terms of man-defense going purely off advanced statistics. In terms of help defense, he is also pretty tremendous. 1.4spg and 1.3bpg.


Stopped reading there....

[Budadiiii]

Stopped reading there....
Intolerant to facts. :rolleyes: Another worthless poster put on my ignore list.

[Suguru101]

Intolerant to facts. :rolleyes: Another worthless poster put on my ignore list.

The facts are that the coaches, who vote for the All-Defense teams, do not recognize Durant defensively enough to vote him into the team.

If you are telling me that "advanced defensive stats", which don't look at a player or don't look at context, should be put above the opinion of the 30 coaches in the NBA.. i won't even say anything and hope you don't take those stats that seriously.

The best perimeter defender in the game by virtue of "advanced stats", was made to guard Mario Friggin' Chalmers for long stretches in the Christmas game, and Mario Chalmers ended up with 20 points.

Also, in the play that sealed the game, when Bosh got freed up under the rim and got a dunk off a pass from LeBron... Perkins went to help on Bron, who was being guarded by Westbrook. In that case, you help the helper, and Durant was the closest one to Bosh. He just stood around, and Bosh got the dunk.

Durant is not close to being the best perimeter defender. Just stop it.

[KyrieTheFuture]

Idk why people think Durant will be easily getting accolades in 5 years when LeBron declines. Plenty of other great players in the league trying to get theirs. Not saying he can't do it, but don't act like it's a foregone conclusion that he'll win awards once LeBron is older. Also, KD is not a good defender just stop it.

[imdaman99]

The gap isn't that big? Everytime the Heat play the Thunder, Durant is put on Chalmers for stretches of the game. And Chalmers goes off.

Talk to me when Durant can guard LeBron for the whole game without fouling out or looking spent on the other side of the floor. Or when Durant can guard 4 positions effectively, or hold MVP caliber point guards to 6% shooting.

The gap is still pretty big. Stats won't tell you the whole story, look at the games. LeBron is playing at a top 5 level. Durant is playing like a top 25 player. Stop making stats the all-be end all.
Ummm I'm no Durant fan but when the hell did Lebron ever cover an elite player for a whole game? Dude relies on his role players aka Battier to do the dirty work and cover the Durants and Melos for a large portion of games. Matter of fact, I remember Lebron locking up Kendrick Perkins for large portions of the finals when they met. Talk to me when Lebron isn't the most overrated defender in the game, talking about 6%? It's called team defense. He didn't single handedly hold Rose to 6% shooting. Get off the koolaid.

[Suguru101]

Ummm I'm no Durant fan but when the hell did Lebron ever cover an elite player for a whole game? Dude relies on his role players aka Battier to do the dirty work and cover the Durants and Melos for a large portion of games. Matter of fact, I remember Lebron locking up Kendrick Perkins for large portions of the finals when they met. Talk to me when Lebron isn't the most overrated defender in the game, talking about 6%? It's called team defense. He didn't single handedly hold Rose to 6% shooting. Get off the koolaid.

Of course he guarded Perkins. When Durant wasn't in the game or when there was a switch...

Durant was put on Chalmers at the beginning of the game by his coach. Because when he was put on LeBron he racked up fouls so quickly, and looked tired as heck on offense because LeBron bullied him in the post.

[CanYouDigIt]

http://sports.cbsimg.net/images/visual/whatshot/Justin_Bieber_Kevin_Durant_Tyson_Chandler.jpg

[Suguru101]

Ummm I'm no Durant fan but when the hell did Lebron ever cover an elite player for a whole game? Dude relies on his role players aka Battier to do the dirty work and cover the Durants and Melos for a large portion of games. Matter of fact, I remember Lebron locking up Kendrick Perkins for large portions of the finals when they met. Talk to me when Lebron isn't the most overrated defender in the game, talking about 6%? It's called team defense. He didn't single handedly hold Rose to 6% shooting. Get off the koolaid.

It's called team defense? The whole team shut him down? Then why didn't Rose shoot 6% when Wade was the primary defender? Or when it was Chalmers?

No, he only shot 6% when LeBron was the primary defender because LeBron is a 6-8 elite defender who was just as quick as Rose, but stronger and taller. And stop acting like Rose just blew by LeBron and had to be contained by the help defense... Rose mostly settled for jumpers against LeBron because he couldn't get through him.

[KG215]

The gap isn't that big? Everytime the Heat play the Thunder, Durant is put on Chalmers for stretches of the game. And Chalmers goes off.

Talk to me when Durant can guard LeBron for the whole game without fouling out or looking spent on the other side of the floor. Or when Durant can guard 4 positions effectively, or hold MVP caliber point guards to 6% shooting.

The gap is still pretty big. Stats won't tell you the whole story, look at the games. LeBron is playing at a top 5 level. Durant is playing like a top 25 player. Stop making stats the all-be end all.
You do know LeBron isn't Durant's primary defender, either, when they play, right? And Durant's numbers were pretty good in the Finals last year when LeBron guarded him.

As for the "fouling out guarding LeBron" thing, that's gotten overblown. A few of those games Durant picked up a foul or two trying to draw a charge or being called for a charge. I know one game, when he picked up 3 fouls in the 1st half, none of the fouls came because he was guarding LeBron.

[KG215]

Of course he guarded Perkins. When Durant wasn't in the game or when there was a switch...

Durant was put on Chalmers at the beginning of the game by his coach. Because when he was put on LeBron he racked up fouls so quickly, and looked tired as heck on offense because LeBron bullied him in the post.
So tired that he still managed to score 30+ PPG on something like 55% shooting in the Finals. Yes, LeBron outplayed Durant in the series, but you're going a little bit overboard with most of what you're posting.

[KG215]

Idk why people think Durant will be easily getting accolades in 5 years when LeBron declines. Plenty of other great players in the league trying to get theirs. Not saying he can't do it, but don't act like it's a foregone conclusion that he'll win awards once LeBron is older. Also, KD is not a good defender just stop it.
Yes, in 2013 he could've been labeled as a "good" defender. It's the first year in his career in my opinion that you could say that without sounding stupid. He showed flashes of being a good defender in the playoffs in 2012, but this year he actually (finally) put forth semi-consistent effort on defense throughout the regular season and played good defense in the playoffs for longer stretches than just being thrown on the other team's primary scorer (if he was a perimeter player) in the final minutes of the 4th quarter.

Again, not saying he was an elite defender, or deserved to be on the All-Defense team, but he was a "good" defender this year; not bad, not below average, or not even just average.

[Suguru101]

So tired, that he still managed to score 30+ PPG on something like 55% shooting in the Finals. Yes, LeBron outplayed Durant in the series, but you're going a little bit overboard with most of what you're posting.

Oh wait, that looked tired as heck part was James Harden. Who was guarding LeBron because Durant couldn't handle him... but still, yeah, you got me.

[Suguru101]

Yes, in 2013 he could've been labeled as a "good" defender. It's the first year in his career in my opinion that you could say that without sounding stupid. He showed flashes of being a good defender in the playoffs in 2012, but this year he actually/finally put forth semi-consistent effort on defense throughout the regular season and played good defense in the playoffs for longer stretches than just being thrown on the other team's primary scorer (if he was a perimeter player) in the final minutes of the 4th quarter.

Again, not saying he was an elite defender, or deserved to be on the All-Defense team, but he was a "good" defender this year; not bad, not below average, or not even just average.

That is reasonable. I'm just arguing against this guy who wanted people to buy the bs advanced stats saying Durant is the league's best perimeter defender.

Utter nonsense.

[Suguru101]

So tired that he still managed to score 30+ PPG on something like 55% shooting in the Finals. Yes, LeBron outplayed Durant in the series, but you're going a little bit overboard with most of what you're posting.

He didn't look tired because he didn't guard LeBron almost at all after the 1st half of the 2nd game.

Pretty hard to look tired when your primary defender is Chalmers...who still went off on him.

[zoom17]

So tired that he still managed to score 30+ PPG on something like 55% shooting in the Finals. Yes, LeBron outplayed Durant in the series, but you're going a little bit overboard with most of what you're posting.

Free Throw King!

[KyrieTheFuture]

Yes, in 2013 he could've been labeled as a "good" defender. It's the first year in his career in my opinion that you could say that without sounding stupid. He showed flashes of being a good defender in the playoffs in 2012, but this year he actually (finally) put forth semi-consistent effort on defense throughout the regular season and played good defense in the playoffs for longer stretches than just being thrown on the other team's primary scorer (if he was a perimeter player) in the final minutes of the 4th quarter.

Again, not saying he was an elite defender, or deserved to be on the All-Defense team, but he was a "good" defender this year; not bad, not below average, or not even just average.
Yea I probably went too far. He's not bad, but nowhere near defensive team level as some people are suggesting. I doubt he ever will be but there's nothing wrong with that when you can destroy on offense like he can.

[KG215]

@ KG215

1. That's true, but you're forgetting that Griffin sprained his ankle and was useless for the last 2 games - That still didn't affect Paul's effectiveness.
Fair enough, but I still think the Clippers are deeper and have more capable shooters/scorers than OKC does sans-Westbrook. They're similar in that neither team had a dependable frontcourt scorer, but the Clippers had better and more shooters.


2. You're probably right about the sample size, I just found it weird that Durant had his worst stretch of games of the whole season in that series especially without Westbrook. It made me question how dependent he is on his teammates to be effective.
His worst stretch of games was two games, though. He was incredible the first two games of the series (35-15-6, 50% FG in game 1 and 36-11-9 on 52% FG in game 2) and pretty solid in game 3 (25-11-5 on 47% shooting). It was just those last two games that really drag down his numbers. But before that, and including the Rockets series, he was averaging 34-11-6-2-1 on 51% FG and 62% TS in his first 7 games without Westbrook. In fact, I'd argue otherwise. It was actually probably his best stretch of games of his season and career in terms of individual, "do it all" play.

He just ended on two [very] sour notes in games 4 and 5 against Memphis. I know I'm making excuses here, but some of it was due to him carrying basically the entire offensive load for the first time in his career in a playoff setting, and 5 of the 9 games without Westbrook were against a very good, physical defensive team that was double and triple teaming him basically the whole game.


3. What type of numbers do you feel Durant would put up without WB especially his efficiency?
Obviously his efficiency would drop, but the scoring would go up to 30+ PPG (easily in my opinion) and his APG numbers would probably go up to between 5 and 6 over the course of an entire season if he assumed a similar role to the one he had in the playoffs without Russ; it'd depend if they got a true PG to replace Westbrook or stuck with Reggie. If they stuck with Reggie as the starter -- and added a wing who could create and score and a decent post scoring threat -- the APG numbers would probably be around 5 per game because Reggie is more a combo/scoring PG.

This may sound a little ridiculous, but I think something like 32-8-5 on 48% FG and 58% TS is possible. That's probably the high end in terms of scoring and efficiency, but the circumstances would be different over the course of the regular season. He wouldn't be playing a defense as bad as the Rockets every game (he averaged 36-9-6 on 51% FG in 4 games against Houston without Westbrook) but he wouldn't be playing a defense as good as the Grizzlies most nights either. The team would have more time to adjust, too, in a lower pressure situation than the playoffs, and you'd be able to replace Westbrook with two lesser players, but still players who could fill needs.

[QUOTE[4. Where do you rank '13 Durant in terms of top scorers in NBA history?[/QUOTE]
For this I think you have to rank guards/wings and bigs separately. I think he'll be considered a top 5 perimeter scorer of all-time, and possibly as high as top 3. He's probably already top 5, but that's in my biased opinion.

[SilkkTheShocker]

If KD can keep this up, I expect many MVP awards coming his way.
So tired of hearing this :facepalm no idea why people expect him to win MVPs and titles.

[CanYouDigIt]

So tired of hearing this :facepalm no idea why people expect him to win MVPs and titles.
Dem virgins are wet behind the ears to comprehend the most common of commonsense.

[PickernRoller]

Intolerant to facts. :rolleyes: Another worthless poster put on my ignore list.

:lol :lol LoL at this crazy nut. Best perimeter defender in the game my big @ss D1ck!

[KG215]

So tired of hearing this :facepalm no idea why people expect him to win MVPs and titles.
You've yet to provide any semblance of an argument as to why he won't. It's one of your favorite threads to create and re-create, but you've never actually provided any kind of argument.

I personally don't think he'll end up winning 3-5 MVP's and/or 3-5 championships, but based on what we've seen so far it's more ridiculous to assume he won't win at least one of each than it does to think he will win one of each. He's still 24 years old and, right now, he's far and away the best player at or around that age in the league. Now, sure, in the future someone like Kyrie or Wiggins may close the gap, but right now he's easily the second best player in the league at 24 years old, and he's "only" the second best because a top 5-10 player all-time, who is 4 years older, is at his peak.

[NumberSix]

You've yet to provide any semblance of an argument as to why he won't. It's one of your favorite threads to create and re-create, but you've never actually provided any kind of argument.

I personally don't think he'll end up winning 3-5 MVP's and/or 3-5 championships, but based on what we've seen so far it's more ridiculous to assume he won't win at least one of each than it does to think he will win one of each. He's still 24 years old and, right now, he's far and away the best player at or around that age in the league. Now, sure, in the future someone like Kyrie or Wiggins may close the gap, but right now he's easily the second best player in the league at 24 years old, and he's "only" the second best because a top 5-10 player all-time, who is 4 years older, is at his peak.
Yes, because every other guy wins 5 MVPs or 5 rings. It's very common in the nba.

[KG215]

Yes, because every other guy wins 5 MVPs or 5 rings. It's very common in the nba.
What part of 3-5 do you not understand? That means I don't even think he'll necessarily win even 3 rings and/or 3 MVP's. Predicting him to go that high is a little too generous right now until I see how he's peaking at 27-29 years old and how much LeBron has slowed down at 31-34 years old.

Silk seems to think even winning just one or two rings and/or MVP's is a long shot, but right now I don't see anything to legitimately base that on since he's easily the best 25 and under player in the league.

[NumberSix]

What part of 3-5 do you not understand? That means I don't even think he'll necessarily win even 3 rings and/or 3 MVP's. Predicting him to go that high is a little too generous right now until I see how he's peaking at 27-29 years old and how much LeBron has slowed down at 31-34 years old.

Silk seems to think even winning just one or two rings and/or MVP's is a long shot, but right now I don't see anything to legitimately base that on since he's easily the best 25 and under player in the league.
People used to say shit like this about t-Mac and Vince carter. Not every good player gets to win.

Between Dwight, KD, rose, cp3, Melo, Westbrook, etc... Some of these guys will never win a ring or never win an MVP. Not everybody gets to win.

[Element]

Great scorer, however has very little offensive impact compared to what his numbers suggest. He gets in great positions to score by moving without the ball. Him scoring the ball a ton doesn't make life easier for his teammates because he doesn't command a lot of attention the way he plays. The Grizzlies basically played him straight up with Prince and Allen and didn't bother to double team him once.

He's getting easier shots and more calls than any other superstar in the game. 50% AST'd rate and his FT draw rate is absolutely astromonical and really really questionable to say the least. With the ball, he's way too turnover prone to run an offense by himself which is why he's best used WITH a Westbrook or Rondo or whoever and not like Kobe or LeBron.

His defense is shoddy at best. Still has to be hidden behind Sefolosha. Advanced metrics don't prove shvt in that department.

Easily the second best player in the game but that's because Kobe and Wade are old, CP3 is past his prime and plays little minutes, Carmelo is still Carmelo and no one else is really close.

[KG215]

Between Dwight, KD, rose, cp3, Melo, Westbrook, etc... Some of these guys will never win a ring or never win an MVP. Not everybody gets to win.
And out of that group of players, who would you say has the best chance to win at least one or two MVPs/rings going forward? Durant's already the best player out of that group and the only one as young as him is Westbrook.

[Suguru101]

Great scorer, however has very little offensive impact compared to what his numbers suggest. He gets in great positions to score by moving without the ball. Him scoring the ball a ton doesn't make life easier for his teammates because he doesn't command a lot of attention the way he plays. The Grizzlies basically played him straight up with Prince and Allen and didn't bother to double team him once.

He's getting easier shots and more calls than any other superstar in the game. 50% AST'd rate and his FT draw rate is absolutely astromonical and really really questionable to say the least. With the ball, he's way too turnover prone to run an offense by himself which is why he's best used WITH a Westbrook or Rondo or whoever and not like Kobe or LeBron.

His defense is shoddy at best. Still has to be hidden behind Sefolosha. Advanced metrics don't prove shvt in that department.

Easily the second best player in the game but that's because Kobe and Wade are old, CP3 is past his prime and plays little minutes, Carmelo is still Carmelo and no one else is really close.

:applause:

[chips93]

He is actually the best perimeter defender in terms of man-defense going purely off advanced statistics.

link?

[Suguru101]

link?

Doesn't matter. He isn't, despite of what "advanced stats" say.

Just watch some OKC-Miami games, Chalmers plays like he ate a red mushroom against Durant's weak ass D.

[chips93]

Great scorer, however has very little offensive impact compared to what his numbers suggest. He gets in great positions to score by moving without the ball. Him scoring the ball a ton doesn't make life easier for his teammates because he doesn't command a lot of attention the way he plays. The Grizzlies basically played him straight up with Prince and Allen and didn't bother to double team him once.

so people can criticise guys like lebron, rose or cp3 for dominating the ball too much, and not being able to play off of the ball, but now being able to score wuthout dominating the ball is a problem too?

when durant is on the floor, okc is 9 points better offensively, per 100 possessions. even lineups with kd but without westbrook, are still elite offensively.

http://www.82games.com/1213/12OKC10.HTM

kd is a really well rounded scorer. he has improved a lot, but in very subtle ways, in the last couple years.

[raprap]

second best player in the game. will never win a championship under scott brooks though. that guy is too stubborn :facepalm

[NumberSix]

And out of that group of players, who would you say has the best chance to win at least one or two MVPs/rings going forward? Durant's already the best player out of that group and the only one as young as him is Westbrook.
In my opinion, Durant is the most likely to win multiple MVPs.

[russwest0]

That is reasonable. I'm just arguing against this guy who wanted people to buy the bs advanced stats saying Durant is the league's best perimeter defender.

Utter nonsense.

At least his nonsense is based off of advanced stats and not just generalities like the ones people spew when they act like LeBron is one of the leagues best defenders

[russwest0]

Free Throw King!

He averaged like 6 FTA per game in the Finals (couldn't buy a damn call) and LeBron was getting BS calls and got like 11 FTA per game...

:lol :lol :lol

Oh, it was because Miami attacks the basket so much more than anyone else, right?

Westbrook scored 43 points attacking the basket all day and was sent to the line twice. Meanwhile no one even comes close to touching Wade on a layup attempt and he flails his legs and goes to the line. The way the the refs were sucking Miamis dick that year was sad to watch. It's like after the choke job they set out a goal. Miami and LeBron will win at all costs to stop the massive backlash. And it worked.

Wade and LeBron both by far had the most free throw attempts in the playoffs that year. Without the perennial treatment they probably don't even get past the Pacers. For sure they don't beat Boston.

I remember OKC having a 10 pt lead on MIA in like game 2 or 3 and then KD jab steps and doesn't even touch Wade and is sent to the bench in foul trouble and then OKC loses all momentum and the lead and KD is coming back in down by a few points, having to fight back without getting any 50/50 (aka Miami) calls.

[bdreason]

With no rings, probable top 20, possible top 15.

With a few rings, probable top 15, possible top 10.

[zoom17]

He averaged like 6 FTA per game in the Finals (couldn't buy a damn call) and LeBron was getting BS calls and got like 11 FTA per game...

:lol :lol :lol

Oh, it was because Miami attacks the basket so much more than anyone else, right?

Westbrook scored 43 points attacking the basket all day and was sent to the line twice. Meanwhile no one even comes close to touching Wade on a layup attempt and he flails his legs and goes to the line. The way the the refs were sucking Miamis dick that year was sad to watch. It's like after the choke job they set out a goal. Miami and LeBron will win at all costs to stop the massive backlash. And it worked.

Wade and LeBron both by far had the most free throw attempts in the playoffs that year. Without the perennial treatment they probably don't even get past the Pacers. For sure they don't beat Boston.

I remember OKC having a 10 pt lead on MIA in like game 2 or 3 and then KD jab steps and doesn't even touch Wade and is sent to the bench in foul trouble and then OKC loses all momentum and the lead and KD is coming back in down by a few points, having to fight back without getting any 50/50 (aka Miami) calls.

lol all Durant has to do is barrel down the court and throw his scrawny arms in the air and boom free throws lol

[russwest0]

lol all Durant has to do is barrel down the court and throw his scrawny arms in the air and boom free throws lol

Which is why he couldn't buy a call in the Finals. Every single 50/50 call that year went to Miami. With the calls just splitting 50/50 they probably don't beat the Pacers, for sure don't get past Boston, and in the Finals, (that they shouldn't have been in) it'd be a completely different series.

[All Net]

Get the feeling he will be underrated in future all time rankings. Guess it depends if and when he can be in a position to keep making the finals or not as his playoff stats are very good for somebody his age.

[dunksby]

LeBron dickriders in full effect, you can't give an elite player credit in here :lol

[WolfGang]

Well, if Goatbrook wouldn't have gotten hurt then the Thunder would have made it to the finals twice in a row because of two 24 year olds. Honestly, I don't think he will ever win a MVP award.

With todays competition, he will win at least two championships. By the time Durant is 30, Lebron will be 35 and Wade will be completely useless. It is a team sport after all so the Thunder still need to make moves and keep Goatbrook.

He has a long time. I'd say his max potential is top 10-15.

[Lebron23]

He's a great player. He might win an NBA title someday. Thunder needs to acquire a dominant low post presence.

[Unbiased_one]

Which is why he couldn't buy a call in the Finals. Every single 50/50 call that year went to Miami. With the calls just splitting 50/50 they probably don't beat the Pacers, for sure don't get past Boston, and in the Finals, (that they shouldn't have been in) it'd be a completely different series.

Well OKC committed 14 more fouls and Miami attacked the rim 37 more times in the series so it doesn't seem like there was a huge disparity to me :lol

[BoutPractice]

With no rings, probable top 20, possible top 15.

With a few rings, probable top 15, possible top 10.
This would seem to be the "expected career path" for him.

Durant is a player you need to think of in terms of probabilities, because with his otherworldly talent and physical profile, there's a small but not completely negligible probability he just... reaches a level of play almost unprecedented in all of NBA history. He'll never be a genius passer but other than that he's the only player other than LeBron who doesn't seem to have a ceiling.

[DMAVS41]

He's a 29/8/4 59% TS player in the playoffs for his career. That is absurdly good for a 24 year old.

He'll go down in the top 25 all time no matter what unless he gets hurt or his production just falls off dramatically...etc.

Where he ends up all time depends on how many titles he wins and how his all around game develops.

He's under-rated right now...he's an all time great talent/player already.

[SamuraiSWISH]

He's impressive. To me he's essentially a better version of Dirk. Very good playoff performer. Decent in the Finals. With that said, his ppg numbers are padded like crazy. He gets so many free throws because he's so weak, refs are forced to make calls. Needs to work on defense, rebounding, and passing.

[fos]

Maybe I'm crazy but I'd take Durant over Lebron.

[Frozen1]

Great scorer, however has very little offensive impact compared to what his numbers suggest. He gets in great positions to score by moving without the ball. Him scoring the ball a ton doesn't make life easier for his teammates because he doesn't command a lot of attention the way he plays. The Grizzlies basically played him straight up with Prince and Allen and didn't bother to double team him once.

He's getting easier shots and more calls than any other superstar in the game. 50% AST'd rate and his FT draw rate is absolutely astromonical and really really questionable to say the least. With the ball, he's way too turnover prone to run an offense by himself which is why he's best used WITH a Westbrook or Rondo or whoever and not like Kobe or LeBron.

His defense is shoddy at best. Still has to be hidden behind Sefolosha. Advanced metrics don't prove shvt in that department.

Easily the second best player in the game but that's because Kobe and Wade are old, CP3 is past his prime and plays little minutes, Carmelo is still Carmelo and no one else is really close.

http://i.imgur.com/ZnqQ5.gif

[SamuraiSWISH]

Great scorer, however has very little offensive impact compared to what his numbers suggest. He gets in great positions to score by moving without the ball. Him scoring the ball a ton doesn't make life easier for his teammates because he doesn't command a lot of attention the way he plays. The Grizzlies basically played him straight up with Prince and Allen and didn't bother to double team him once.

He's getting easier shots and more calls than any other superstar in the game. 50% AST'd rate and his FT draw rate is absolutely astromonical and really really questionable to say the least. With the ball, he's way too turnover prone to run an offense by himself which is why he's best used WITH a Westbrook or Rondo or whoever and not like Kobe or LeBron.

His defense is shoddy at best. Still has to be hidden behind Sefolosha. Advanced metrics don't prove shvt in that department.

Easily the second best player in the game but that's because Kobe and Wade are old, CP3 is past his prime and plays little minutes, Carmelo is still Carmelo and no one else is really close.
:applause:

Missed this. Absolutely Perfect.

[Electric Slide]

He has probably the worst ball security I've ever seen from a superstar.

[Le Shaqtus]

He has probably the worst ball security I've ever seen from a superstar.

Dwight Howard.

[NumberSix]

He has probably the worst ball security I've ever seen from a superstar.
It's irrelevant when you get to shoot free throws every time you dribble the ball off your own foot.

[KG215]

Originally Posted by Element
Great scorer, however has very little offensive impact compared to what his numbers suggest. He gets in great positions to score by moving without the ball. Him scoring the ball a ton doesn't make life easier for his teammates because he doesn't command a lot of attention the way he plays. The Grizzlies basically played him straight up with Prince and Allen and didn't bother to double team him once.

He's getting easier shots and more calls than any other superstar in the game. 50% AST'd rate and his FT draw rate is absolutely astromonical and really really questionable to say the least. With the ball, he's way too turnover prone to run an offense by himself which is why he's best used WITH a Westbrook or Rondo or whoever and not like Kobe or LeBron.

His defense is shoddy at best. Still has to be hidden behind Sefolosha. Advanced metrics don't prove shvt in that department.

Easily the second best player in the game but that's because Kobe and Wade are old, CP3 is past his prime and plays little minutes, Carmelo is still Carmelo and no one else is really close.
There's also plenty of things wrong with this if we're talking about 2013 Durant. Some of it was more true even through 2012, but not as much anymore. His defense is not "shoddy" and he wasn't just the second best player because other guys are past their prime. 2013 Durant was better than any version of CP3 or Melo, and not too far off from the best versions of Kobe and Wade.

And the part about "not bothering to double team him once" is just blatantly and flatout wrong. Against both Houston and Memphis (after Russ got hurt) he was almost exclusively double teamed and, in rarer instacnes, triple teamed.