Was Kobe better than Jordan at any apsect of the game?

[Electric Slide]

????

[zoom17]

????
no :cheers:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobe's game from 16-23 out is at the very least on par.

[Jameerthefear]

3-pointers maybe.

[K Xerxes]

3 point shooting, but that's pretty much it.

Finishing, mid range, efficiency, overall scoring, passing, rebounding, man defense, team defense, leadership, IQ, shot selection, being a team mate etc etc go to MJ. MJ passes the eye and statistics tests on all of those.

The best way I can compare Kobe to MJ is that Kobe is kind of a glorified MJ lite. MJ lite would be too disrespectful to a top 10 all time player, but he's modelled his entire game after MJ but was obviously never as good.

[Donkey4trading]

Does the OP do anything other than make Kobe related threads?

Dudes becoming one of the biggest Kobe Stans on the forum

[9erempiree]

I say yes.

MJ had the better career but not all players have the same circumstances.

[DaSeba5]

3 point shooting

[longtime lurker]

Does the OP do anything other than make Kobe related threads?

Dudes becoming one of the biggest Kobe Stans on the forum

This. Jesus and the mods won't shut this thread down or ban this clown.

[9erempiree]

3 point shooting, but that's pretty much it.

Finishing, mid range, efficiency, overall scoring, passing, rebounding, man defense, team defense, leadership, IQ, shot selection, being a team mate etc etc go to MJ. MJ passes the eye and statistics tests on all of those.

The best way I can compare Kobe to MJ is that Kobe is kind of a glorified MJ lite. MJ lite would be too disrespectful to a top 10 all time player, but he's modelled his entire game after MJ but was obviously never as good.

It works both ways. Great players copy great players like MJ copied 3 peat Kobe during his comeback.

http://s21.postimg.org/ukf69h9w7/20040626_nets_st_115113.jpg

[zoom17]

It works both ways. Great players copy great players like MJ copied 3 peat Kobe during his comeback.

http://s21.postimg.org/ukf69h9w7/20040626_nets_st_115113.jpg

:facepalm :facepalm

[LongLiveTheKing]

It works both ways. Great players copy great players like MJ copied 3 peat Kobe during his comeback.

http://s21.postimg.org/ukf69h9w7/20040626_nets_st_115113.jpg
http://tajtorrence.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/michael-jordan-and-kobe-bryant.jpg
http://summerofzen.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/michael-jordan-fist_display_image.jpg
Kobe copied Jordan .

[zoom17]

http://tajtorrence.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/michael-jordan-and-kobe-bryant.jpg
Kobe copied Jordan .

BINGO:cheers:

[Trollsmasher]

It works both ways. Great players copy great players like MJ copied 3 peat Kobe during his comeback.

http://s21.postimg.org/ukf69h9w7/20040626_nets_st_115113.jpg
I have to say MJ's form looks much better in each of those pictures.

[9erempiree]

http://tajtorrence.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/michael-jordan-and-kobe-bryant.jpg
http://summerofzen.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/michael-jordan-fist_display_image.jpg
Kobe copied Jordan .

Like I said earlier, great players copy one another. Kobe copied MJ till 1998 and MJ copied Kobe during his comeback.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobe copied MJ till 1998.

:rockon:

[LongLiveTheKing]

Like I said earlier, great players copy one another. Kobe copied MJ till 1998 and MJ copied Kobe during his comeback.
How is it copying if Jordan had already done it before? He did it on the Bulls where Kobe copied him. Then Jordan continued doing it on the Wizards? How can you copy things you've already done? :biggums:

[9erempiree]

http://summerofzen.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/michael-jordan-fist_display_image.jpg


On a side note, look at that HGH body of MJ's compared to his younger years. Since taking HGH, MJ developed a different personality. Alcohol, gambling, yelling and fighting teammates. Also, with this new attitude came hair loss from HGH too.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/multimedia/photo_gallery/0904/hall.jordan/images/10.jpg

[Trollsmasher]

On a side note, look at that HGH body of MJ's compared to his younger years. Since taking HGH, MJ developed a different personality. Alcohol, gambling, yelling and fighting teammates. Also, with this new attitude came hair loss from HGH too.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/multimedia/photo_gallery/0904/hall.jordan/images/10.jpg
:applause:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

-marriage
-overall offensive performances against sub 100 rated defenses in the playoffs
-baseball
-winning titles with just 1 HOF teammate
- winning titles with no all defensive team teammates
- winning titles without elite shooters

:confusedshrug:

[zoom17]

On a side note, look at that HGH body of MJ's compared to his younger years. Since taking HGH, MJ developed a different personality. Alcohol, gambling, yelling and fighting teammates. Also, with this new attitude came hair loss from HGH too.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/multimedia/photo_gallery/0904/hall.jordan/images/10.jpg

:biggums:

[SuperPippen]

Kobe (at least in his prime) is more likely to get hot from long range than Jordan was.

That's about it.

[zoom17]

-marriage
-overall offensive performances against sub 100 rated defenses in the playoffs
-baseball
-winning titles with just 1 HOF teammate
- winning titles with no all defensive team teammates
- winning titles without elite shooters

:confusedshrug:

:facepalm

[Donkey4trading]

I've seen Jerry stachouse, Vince Carter, Tmac and plenty of others post up in the exact same way, same mannerism, same fist pump..

What's the point? People emulate what they watched growing up, and if they see it bein effective why not take a similar approach to the GOAT?

Maybe other players should have tried to emulate the GOAT? It worked out pretty well for Kobe.. Unfortunately what people fail to realize is that to effectively imitate the GOAT, you've got to have some GOAT esque talent to go with it

[magnax1]

On a side note, look at that HGH body of MJ's compared to his younger years. Since taking HGH, MJ developed a different personality. Alcohol, gambling, yelling and fighting teammates. Also, with this new attitude came hair loss from HGH too.

I think this post is supposed to be a joke.... but if not....
HGH doesnt cause a single one of those things that you listed.

[SuperPippen]

-marriage
-overall offensive performances against sub 100 rated defenses in the playoffs
-baseball
-winning titles with just 1 HOF teammate
- winning titles with no all defensive team teammates
- winning titles without elite shooters

:confusedshrug:

:facepalm

Here comes this idiot again. There is such a huge amount of holes in your "logic", it's insulting.


All HOFers are created equally now? There is no discernible difference between someone like MJ and someone like, say, Tommy Heinsohn, simply because they are both in the HOF? Get real.

You know something else Kobe is good at? Failing on stacked teams with multiple HOFes. Shaq, Payton, Malone, Nash, Dwight, Pau, all future HOFers, if not already HOFers, and all were on disappointing teams with Kobe. Sure, you could claim that this is faulty logic, but you don't seem to care about using faulty logic when it suits your agenda.

Crawl back under your rock.

[jzek]

No. He copied EVERYTHING from Jordan and he couldn't match the original in terms of MVPs, rings, and FMVPs! :oldlol:

[jzek]

-marriage
-overall offensive performances against sub 100 rated defenses in the playoffs
-baseball
-winning titles with just 1 HOF teammate
- winning titles with no all defensive team teammates
- winning titles without elite shooters

:confusedshrug:

Kobe failed to win titles TWICE (04 and last year) with 4 other Hall of Fame teammates :oldlol:

[funnystuff]

He was a better rapist.






















:D

[NumberSix]

Without checking the stats, I would guess free throw shooting.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:facepalm

Here comes this idiot again. There is such a huge amount of holes in your "logic", it's insulting.


All HOFers are created equally now? There is no discernible difference between someone like MJ and someone like, say, Tommy Heinsohn, simply because they are both in the HOF? Get real.

You know something else Kobe is good at? Failing on stacked teams with multiple HOFes. Shaq, Payton, Malone, Nash, Dwight, Pau, all future HOFers, if not already HOFers, and all were on disappointing teams with Kobe. Sure, you could claim that this is faulty logic, but you don't seem to care about using faulty logic when it suits your agenda.

Crawl back under your rock.

Blowing titles chances by missing an achilles tendon or facing statistically one of the greatest defenses of all time vs blowing title chances sitting the bench for the Birmingham Barrons. :confusedshrug:

[9erempiree]

Jordan's competitive nature was what really set him off. He knew the public knew he had a small ***** and to compensate for that small *****, his competitive nature was fierce.

[NumberSix]

Jordan's competitive nature was what really set him off. He knew the public knew he had a small ***** and to compensate for that small *****, his competitive nature was fierce.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:





:applause:

[zoom17]

Jordan's competitive nature was what really set him off. He knew the public knew he had a small ***** and to compensate for that small *****, his competitive nature was fierce.

your a queer

[NumberSix]

your a queer
He is, but it was pretty funny.

[dawsey6]

9erempiree is a pretty pretty funny troll. :lol

http://rack.3.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDEyLzA5LzA2LzE5XzQ2XzU4XzBfZmlsZQpwCXRodW1iCT g1MHg1OTA-CmUJanBn/e6f025b2.jpg

[juju151111]

-marriage
-overall offensive performances against sub 100 rated defenses in the playoffs
-baseball
-winning titles with just 1 HOF teammate
- winning titles with no all defensive team teammates
- winning titles without elite shooters

:confusedshrug:
-who cares his new wife is good
-Kobe Was horrible against them. Mj sample size too low.
-Pippen didn't make the all-star team in 91 or 98.
-Kobe had shaq and Gasol
-Wtf Kobe had Shaq and Gasol
-He does noting better

[9erempiree]

Not being funny, just telling the truth. You know that little man syndrome people like to talk about short people. Those guys are very outspoken like human chihuahuas. I think MJ compensated for his small appendage with that fierce competitive nature and that athletic ability.

I believe his lack of testosterone forced him to take HGH and it shrunk his appendage.

[TheReal Kendall]

Jordan's competitive nature was what really set him off. He knew the public knew he had a small ***** and to compensate for that small *****, his competitive nature was fierce.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/kiss.gif

[juju151111]

Blowing titles chances by missing an achilles tendon or facing statistically one of the greatest defenses of all time vs blowing title chances sitting the bench for the Birmingham Barrons. :confusedshrug:
Rip and Prince stopped Kobe. Wade destroyed them. Lmao Kobe choked with prime Shaq Lmfao

[juju151111]

Jordan's competitive nature was what really set him off. He knew the public knew he had a small ***** and to compensate for that small *****, his competitive nature was fierce.
:roll: :lol :oldlol: :applause: Your a funny troll I give u that one.:applause: :applause:

[oh the horror]

Not being funny, just telling the truth. You know that little man syndrome people like to talk about short people. Those guys are very outspoken like human chihuahuas. I think MJ compensated for his small appendage with that fierce competitive nature and that athletic ability.

I believe his lack of testosterone forced him to take HGH and it shrunk his appendage.



Your steering the convo concerning this is revealing.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Not being funny, just telling the truth. You know that little man syndrome people like to talk about short people. Those guys are very outspoken like human chihuahuas. I think MJ compensated for his small appendage with that fierce competitive nature and that athletic ability.

I believe his lack of testosterone forced him to take HGH and it shrunk his appendage.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/lol.gif

[Yao Ming's Foot]

-who cares his new wife is good
-Kobe Was horrible against them. Mj sample size too low.
-Pippen didn't make the all-star team in 91 or 98.
-Kobe had shaq and Gasol
-Wtf Kobe had Shaq and Gasol
-He does noting better

Shaq OR Gasol

Pippen AND Rodman
Kareem AND Worthy
Parrish AND Mchale
Wade AND Bosh

Shaq and Gasol were never teammates.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Rip and Prince stopped Kobe. Wade destroyed them. Lmao Kobe choked with prime Shaq Lmfao

Wade didn't play the 04 Pistons in the playoffs. Prime Michael Redd, Jason Kidd and Ron Artest did however. Their field goal percentage was 33%.

[juju151111]

Shaq OR Gasol

Pippen AND Rodman
Kareem AND Worthy
Parrish AND Mchale
Wade AND Bosh

Shaq and Gasol were never teammates.
Kobe played with both. One happens to be considered MDE big man. The other is great Euro player with 2 chips. Shitted on defensive player of the year Dwight Howard in the finals. Mj scored 50+ on a sub 100 team with a ducked up wrist. Kobe has only like 1 or two 50 of games in the playoffs. Sad really

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Kobe played with both. One happens to be considered MDE big man. The other is great Euro player

falls apart right here :roll:

Anthony Parker is a great Euro player too. Its irrelevant.

[Element]

Shooting in general, post up game, handles, playmaking

Yes, shooting. Comparing their mid-range in prime is basically splitting hairs, though Kobe's edge in long range twos and threes gives him the edge overall. MJ was a top 3 shot maker ever but Kobe's arguably the GOAT at it along with Iverson.

Kobe has more moves in the post and has shot 60% out of there since he has begun implementing it in 08. He ranks around tops to top 3 in the L in post up PPS for like 5 straight years now. And that as a guard.

Handles? Yeah that's an easy one. Frobe has sick handles.

Playmaking. Yes. MJ had Pip as the primary playmaker. Kobe was playing both roles at the same time. Watch "Kobe Doin Work" to really understand how he works the triangle. MJ might've produced gaudier assists seasons but that's due to pace inflation and stat padding (remember this is the dude that would look at the stat sheet during every break in the action to see how close he was to a triple double).

[juju151111]

Wade didn't play the 04 Pistons in the playoffs. Prime Michael Redd, Jason Kidd and Ron Artest did however. Their field goal percentage was 33%.
They were the same team. Same defenders. The simple fact is Wade was way two fast for them to keep up in 05. Wade even drip 40+ on them in the playoffs with Shaq injured :rolleyes: I actually watched the series.

[Indian guy]

Better handle, mostly in terms of isolation play with a live dribble, although I would say he's slightly better at most other aspects of dribbling too. Having binged on his highlights lately, I would say he has better footwork too.

[Element]

They were the same team. Same defenders. The simple fact is Wade was way two fast for them to keep up in 05. Wade even drip 40+ on them in the playoffs with Shaq injured :rolleyes: I actually watched the series.

They weren't the same team since, uh, 04

Yes, same defenders but that would be like saying 13 Lakers are basically the same team as 09 Lakers because it's the same main players and they're the same defenders.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

They were the same team. Same defenders. The simple fact is Wade was way two fast for them to keep up in 05. Wade even drip 40+ on them in the playoffs with Shaq injured :rolleyes: I actually watched the series.

You could have been the ballboy for all I care. It doesn't change the simple fact the 05 Pistons allowed 5.8 more points per 100 possessions than 04 Pistons. That's not even in the same ballpark. :facepalm

[RRR3]

Shaq OR Gasol

Pippen AND Rodman
Kareem AND Worthy
Parrish AND Mchale
Wade AND Bosh

Shaq and Gasol were never teammates.

Pippen and Rodman combined, 1996 playoffs: 24.4 PPG on 41.5 FG%

Shaq, 2000 playoffs: 30.7 PPG on 56.6 FG%


Pippen and Rodman combined, 1997 playoffs: 23.4 PPG on 40.8 FG%

Shaq, 2001 playoffs: 30.4 PPG on 55.5 FG%


Pippen and Rodman combined, 1998 playoffs: 21.7 PPG on 40.4 FG%

Shaq, 2002 playoffs: 28.5 PPG on 52.9 FG%






Shaq gave Kobe more PPG on much greater efficiency than Jordan's two "legendary HOFers" gave him TOGETHER. Get mad.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Better handle, mostly in terms of isolation play with a live dribble, although I would say he's slightly better at most other aspects of dribbling too. Having binged on his highlights lately, I would say he has better footwork too.

Same. Of course MJ had impeccable footwork, but I believe Kobe's longevity has really given him the ability to hone in his skillset.

That reverse-pivot-spin is disgusting.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Pippen and Rodman combined, 1996 playoffs: 24.4 PPG on 41.5 FG%

Shaq, 2000 playoffs: 30.7 PPG on 56.6 FG%


Pippen and Rodman combined, 1997 playoffs: 23.4 PPG on 40.8 FG%

Shaq, 2001 playoffs: 30.4 PPG on 55.5 FG%


Pippen and Rodman combined, 1998 playoffs: 21.7 PPG on 40.4 FG%

Shaq, 2002 playoffs: 28.5 PPG on 52.9 FG%






Shaq gave Kobe more PPG on much greater efficiency than Jordan's two "legendary HOFers" gave him TOGETHER. Get mad.

Why would I be mad that two of the greatest defenders of all time didn't outproduce one of the greatest offensive players of all time?

You also forgot the 09-10 for some reason. :oldlol:

[daily]

Why would I be mad that two of the greatest defenders of all time didn't outproduce one of the greatest offensive players of all time?

You also forgot the 09-10 for some reason. :oldlol:

Shhh we're just gonna pretend that never happened OK?

[RRR3]

Why would I be mad that two of the greatest defenders of all time didn't outproduce one of the greatest offensive players of all time?

You also forgot the 09-10 for some reason. :oldlol:
Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom combined 2009 playoffs: 30.6 PPG on 56.8 FG%

Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom combined 2010 playoffs: 29.3 PPG on 51.2 FG%


Damn, if only Jordan could get the amazing help Kobe got.



Just for LOLZ


Wade and Bosh combined 2013 playoffs: 28.0 PPG on 45.8 FG%



:lol

[juju151111]

falls apart right here :roll:

Anthony Parker is a great Euro player too. Its irrelevant.
What's your point? Watch the Olympics where they choose the best and Gasol in the nba.

[RRR3]

Shhh we're just gonna pretend that never happened OK?
Gasol and Odom combined for more PPG and were much more efficient than Pippen and Rodman EVER did in BOTH 09 and 10. Same applies for them in comparison to Wade and Bosh in 13. B-b-b-but Kobe had no help:cry:

[juju151111]

They weren't the same team since, uh, 04

Yes, same defenders but that would be like saying 13 Lakers are basically the same team as 09 Lakers because it's the same main players and they're the same defenders.
That's like 4 years later. This was the following year where the Pistons made it to the finals. I watched the games and the Lakers were out of sync completely in those games and Kobe was trying to shoot over Prince who is 6'8 with long ass arms and bricking. Prince literally couldn't keep up with Wade Wats so ever. He was getting beat off the dribble everytime.

[Mirko Cro Cop]

On a side note, look at that HGH body of MJ's compared to his younger years. Since taking HGH, MJ developed a different personality. Alcohol, gambling, yelling and fighting teammates. Also, with this new attitude came hair loss from HGH too.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/multimedia/photo_gallery/0904/hall.jordan/images/10.jpg
:facepalm

There is no scientific evidence suggesting any links b/w HGH use and hair loss. It would be anabolic-androgenic steroids that would cause him to lose his hair, and if he was really on HGH, then he was definitely on the juice.

And so are most top athletes in most sports whether you people like it or not.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Gasol and Odom combined for more PPG and were much more efficient than Pippen and Rodman EVER did in BOTH 09 and 10. Same applies for them in comparison to Wade and Bosh in 13. B-b-b-but Kobe had no help:cry:

It takes a special kind of idiot to boil down Dennis Rodman's (AKA the greatest rebounder/defender of all time) impact on a championship club to his scoring average and field goal percentage. I salute you.

[Young X]

Shooting in general, post up game, handles, playmaking

Yes, shooting. Comparing their mid-range in prime is basically splitting hairs, though Kobe's edge in long range twos and threes gives him the edge overall. MJ was a top 3 shot maker ever but Kobe's arguably the GOAT at it along with Iverson.

Kobe has more moves in the post and has shot 60% out of there since he has begun implementing it in 08. He ranks around tops to top 3 in the L in post up PPS for like 5 straight years now. And that as a guard.

Handles? Yeah that's an easy one. Frobe has sick handles.

Playmaking. Yes. MJ had Pip as the primary playmaker. Kobe was playing both roles at the same time. Watch "Kobe Doin Work" to really understand how he works the triangle. MJ might've produced gaudier assists seasons but that's due to pace inflation and stat padding (remember this is the dude that would look at the stat sheet during every break in the action to see how close he was to a triple double).This whole post is a joke. :oldlol:

[juju151111]

You could have been the ballboy for all I care. It doesn't change the simple fact the 05 Pistons allowed 5.8 more points per 100 possessions than 04 Pistons. That's not even in the same ballpark. :facepalm
Same players different year and no one was injured. Kobe got worked by tashawn prince. Lmfao.

[juju151111]

Pippen and Rodman combined, 1996 playoffs: 24.4 PPG on 41.5 FG%

Shaq, 2000 playoffs: 30.7 PPG on 56.6 FG%


Pippen and Rodman combined, 1997 playoffs: 23.4 PPG on 40.8 FG%

Shaq, 2001 playoffs: 30.4 PPG on 55.5 FG%


Pippen and Rodman combined, 1998 playoffs: 21.7 PPG on 40.4 FG%

Shaq, 2002 playoffs: 28.5 PPG on 52.9 FG%






Shaq gave Kobe more PPG on much greater efficiency than Jordan's two "legendary HOFers" gave him TOGETHER. Get mad.
Lmao he definitely mad:lol

[juju151111]

Shooting in general, post up game, handles, playmaking

Yes, shooting. Comparing their mid-range in prime is basically splitting hairs, though Kobe's edge in long range twos and threes gives him the edge overall. MJ was a top 3 shot maker ever but Kobe's arguably the GOAT at it along with Iverson.

Kobe has more moves in the post and has shot 60% out of there since he has begun implementing it in 08. He ranks around tops to top 3 in the L in post up PPS for like 5 straight years now. And that as a guard.

Handles? Yeah that's an easy one. Frobe has sick handles.

Playmaking. Yes. MJ had Pip as the primary playmaker. Kobe was playing both roles at the same time. Watch "Kobe Doin Work" to really understand how he works the triangle. MJ might've produced gaudier assists seasons but that's due to pace inflation and stat padding (remember this is the dude that would look at the stat sheet during every break in the action to see how close he was to a triple double).
Get me some of that crack your smoking.

[RRR3]

It takes a special kind of idiot to boil down Dennis Rodman's (AKA the greatest rebounder/defender of all time) impact on a championship club to his scoring average and field goal percentage. I salute you.
Dennis Rodman rebounds per 36 minutes during 3Peat

1996: 14.3
1997: 10.8
1998: 12.4


Shaq rebounds per 36 minutes during 3Peat

2000: 12.8
2001: 13.2
2002: 11.1



Interdasting.

[Young X]

^ :applause:

[juju151111]

Why would I be mad that two of the greatest defenders of all time didn't outproduce one of the greatest offensive players of all time?

You also forgot the 09-10 for some reason. :oldlol:
Gasol and Odom probably did better too and Shaq during the 3 peat was a good defender. In fact players rarly attack the rim when Shaq near by. Shaq was like 2nd dpoy in 2000:facepalm like I said You mad tho?

[RRR3]

According to YMF, Kobe has "never won a ring with an elite shooter".


2000 playoffs:

Rick Fox, 46.2 3P%
Glen Rice, 41.8 3P%
Derek Fisher, 41.4 3P%


2001 playoffs:

Derek Fisher, 51.5 3P%


2002 playoffs:

Robert Horry 38.7 3P%


2009 playoffs:

Lamar Odom, 51.4 3P%
Shannon Brown, 48.0 3P%
Trevor Ariza, 47.6 3P%


2010 playoffs:

Jordan Farmar, 40.0 3P%
Sasha Vujacic, 40.0 3P%





:biggums:

[juju151111]

Dennis Rodman rebounds per 36 minutes during 3Peat

1996: 14.3
1997: 10.8
1998: 12.4


Shaq rebounds per 36 minutes during 3Peat

2000: 12.8
2001: 13.2
2002: 11.1



Interdasting.
YMF just got raped by the one the they call Shaqfu. Prime Shaq was a monster.:applause:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Gasol and Odom probably did better too and Shaq during the 3 peat was a good defender. In fact players rarly attack the rim when Shaq near by. Shaq was like 2nd dpoy in 2000:facepalm like I said You mad tho?

Ah yes I remember that one year Shaq tried on defense too. :oldlol:

[juju151111]

Ah yes I remember that one year Shaq tried on defense too. :oldlol:
Wait so you are mad?:lol your getting Ether by everyone in this thread. I feel bad for you though. Shaq played defense more then one year. Shaq presence alone along with his top notch post defense was good and great rebounding. You mad?

[RRR3]

Since YMF loves DRTG so much....


Pippen DRTG during 3Peat:

1996: 96
1997: 101
1998: 99


Rodman

1996: 108
1997: 96
1998: 101


Shaq

2000: 104
2001: 96
2002: 99

[Yao Ming's Foot]

According to YMF, Kobe has "never won a ring with an elite shooter".


2000 playoffs:

Rick Fox, 46.2 3P%
Glen Rice, 41.8 3P%
Derek Fisher, 41.4 3P%


2001 playoffs:

Derek Fisher, 51.5 3P%


2002 playoffs:

Robert Horry 38.7 3P%


2009 playoffs:

Lamar Odom, 51.4 3P%
Shannon Brown, 48.0 3P%
Trevor Ariza, 47.6 3P%


2010 playoffs:

Jordan Farmar, 40.0 3P%
Sasha Vujacic, 40.0 3P%





:biggums:

By elite shooter I mean someone like Steve Kerr #1 career 3pt (45.4%) of all time not guys like Lamar Odom (31.2%) or Trevor Ariza (32.5%).

:facepalm

[juju151111]

Since YMF loves DRTG so much....


Pippen DRTG during 3Peat:

1996: 96
1997: 101
1998: 99


Rodman

1996: 108
1997: 96
1998: 101


Shaq

2000: 104
2001: 96
2002: 99
Drtg is nonesense especially individual Drtg. One player Carlos Boozer. The End.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Wait so you are mad?:lol your getting Ether by everyone in this thread. I feel bad for you though. Shaq played defense more then one year. Shaq presence alone along with his top notch post defense was good and great rebounding. You mad?

I'm mad at our education system's apparent inability to teach reading comprehension and writing. Very mad.

[juju151111]

By elite shooter I mean someone like Steve Kerr #1 career 3pt (45.4%) of all time not guys like Lamar Odom (31.2%) or Trevor Ariza (32.5%).

:facepalm
Who cares? He showed u their playoffs stats tho:facepalm.

[jstern]

Kobe had a better 3 point percentage during the regular season, though I think Jordan was more capable, since the one year he decided to shoot a lot of them and make them a part of his game he shot it better than all but one of Kobe's 17 years in the league, not counting his rookie year since the line was shorten. So if it only takes one try for Jordan to shoot the 3 better than Kobe in 15 season, imagine if he had made it part of his game.

So I guess no, there's nothing that Kobe was better than Jordan at. Including 3 pointers, if we look at who is more capable.

Kobe also gets a lot more space to shoot the 3, compare to the games that I see in the 80s where point guards had to basically turn their back as if they were posting up because of the tighter defense.

[Asukal]

He was a better rapist.

No, Jordan raped his competition. :banana:

And you guys don't bother with YMF, he is a known idiot. :roll:

[juju151111]

I'm mad at our education system's apparent inability to teach reading comprehension and writing. Very mad.
Yep, you definitely mad.:lol Shaq alone took out Pippen and Rodman:lol :roll: :cheers: Gasol and Odom performed better offensively then Rodman and Pippen too. Very interesting Mj HOF teammates. Amazing:biggums:

[tpols]

According to YMF, Kobe has "never won a ring with an elite shooter".


2000 playoffs:

Rick Fox, 46.2 3P%
Glen Rice, 41.8 3P%
Derek Fisher, 41.4 3P%


2001 playoffs:

Derek Fisher, 51.5 3P%


2002 playoffs:

Robert Horry 38.7 3P%


2009 playoffs:

Lamar Odom, 51.4 3P%
Shannon Brown, 48.0 3P%
Trevor Ariza, 47.6 3P%


2010 playoffs:

Jordan Farmar, 40.0 3P%
Sasha Vujacic, 40.0 3P%





:biggums:
None of those guys are elite shooters though except maybe sasha.

Trevor ariza an elite shooter lol.. He's actually a terrible shooter who had a good run that he never came close to duplicating.

Rick fox and Derek fisher are not world class shooters.. You can make a list of a ton of role players who shot a good percentage in a certain year.


Elite shooters are guys like peja, ray allen, curry, etc.

Going off 3pt percentage Lebron shot better than reggie miller's career average. Great shooters typically are 90+ percent from the FT line. Gives good idea of their form and rythym. 3pt percentage doesn't account for how you're guarded

[juju151111]

None of those guys are elite shooters though except maybe sasha.

Trevor ariza an elite shooter lol.. He's actually a terrible shooter who had a good run that he never came close to duplicating.

Rick fox and Derek fisher are not world class shooters.. You can make a list of a ton of role players who shot a good percentage in a certain year.


Elite shooters are guys like peja, ray allen, curry, etc.

Going off 3pt percentage Lebron shot better than reggie miller's career average. Great shooters typically are 90+ percent from the FT line. Gives good idea of their form and rythym. 3pt percentage doesn't account for how you're guarded
What's your point? They made the shots.:facepalm

[RRR3]

None of those guys are elite shooters though except maybe sasha.

Trevor ariza an elite shooter lol.. He's actually a terrible shooter who had a good run that he never came close to duplicating.

Rick fox and Derek fisher are not world class shooters.. You can make a list of a ton of role players who shot a good percentage in a certain year.


Elite shooters are guys like peja, ray allen, curry, etc.

Going off 3pt percentage Lebron shot better than reggie miller's career average. Great shooters typically are 90+ percent from the FT line. Gives good idea of their form and rythym. 3pt percentage doesn't account for how you're guarded
Tell me more about how Glen Rice isn't an elite shooter.

[RRR3]

Derek Fisher is a career 40.5 3P% shooter in the playoffs (240 games). This includes playoff runs of 61.7%, 51.5%, and 44.0%.

[tpols]

Tell me more about how Glen Rice isn't an elite shooter.
Ok glen Rice is only sure fire one there.. And he was old way past his prime in one year out of the five championships.

[RRR3]

Ok glen Rice is only sure fire one there.. And he was old way past his prime in one year out of the five championships.
Doesn't really matte how good they were in other years if they were hitting shots at an elite rate during the years in question does it?

[SuperPippen]

Blowing titles chances by missing an achilles tendon or facing statistically one of the greatest defenses of all time vs blowing title chances sitting the bench for the Birmingham Barrons. :confusedshrug:

'13 Lakers never had title chances. They were a shitty team from the outset of the season.

The 2004 Pistons' great defense didn't deter Shaq from having a great series, and yet Kobe still played horribly.

And what does Jordan's baseball playing have to do with this? We're discussing Jordan's and Kobe's abilities as basketball players (albeit with a significant handcap, due to the fact that you're an idiot) and you bring up Jordan playing baseball? That has nothing to do with anything (although I repeat that I did not expect anything more logical due to your idiocy).


**** off with all of your crap. Or else just post another abysmal attempt at appearing rational, and be prepared to get shot down again.

[juju151111]

Ok glen Rice is only sure fire one there.. And he was old way past his prime in one year out of the five championships.
Derek Fisher isn't?

[RRR3]

I'd imagine Jordan is better than Kobe in baseball anyways, considering he was able to at least play in double A.

[tpols]

Derek Fisher is a career 40.5 3P% shooter in the playoffs (240 games). This includes playoff runs of 61.7%, 51.5%, and 44.0%.
He shot shockingly well in the early runs.. And then was not too good in 09 and 10..

Went from 60 and 50 like you said to 28 percent for a whole playoff run. He's a sub 80 percent ft shooter as well. His form is long and awkward.. Nothing close to elite. Although he is clutch and will hit them when they're needed.

[RRR3]

Derek Fisher is a career 82% FT shooter :biggums:

If you're referring to the playoffs, wow 79.8%, so much lower than .800 :oldlol:


Kobe didn't need Fisher to shoot well in 2009 considering he had THREE teammates who shot over 47% from downtown in the playoffs :biggums:

[juju151111]

He shot shockingly well in the early runs.. And then was not too good in 09 and 10..

Went from 60 and 50 like you said to 28 percent for a whole playoff run. He's a sub 80 percent ft shooter as well. His form is long and awkward.. Nothing close to elite. Although he is clutch and will hit them when they're needed.
So he is was good until he got old. Lol 240 at games with 50% is pretty amazing and he was clutch has hell.

[Scholar]

I say Kobe is the better shooter from midrange and farther.

Other than that, not really.

[I<3NBA]

Kobe is a better f@990t

[OldSchoolBBall]

3 point shooting. Flashy And-1 style handles that are more a function of ghis generation than him actually having better handles. I don't think he was more effective getting where he wanted to go on the court than Jordan despite that. That's it.

[plowking]

3 point shooting. Flashy And-1 style handles that are more a function of ghis generation than him actually having better handles. I don't think he was more effective getting where he wanted to go on the court than Jordan despite that. That's it.

Better handles too.

[SamuraiSWISH]

He was a better rapist.
Detroit, New York, Cleveland, Miami, Utah players and fans respectfully disagree.





















:D[/QUOTE]

[VIntageNOvel]

kobe more skillfull i.e. footwork, post game, 3 pt shooting
MJ much more better athlete (hes arguably top 3 athletic freak with shaq, and lebron (or wilt?))

MJ : taller, bigger version of wade with rondo hand, and still a better athlete

kobe try his hardest to catch up to MJ,
but theres a limit to where hardwork can bring you
Kobe need every single trick in the book to beat his opponent, and must train twice as hard,
while MJ doenst even need to, he can slip pass his opponent like nothing

[andgar923]

kobe more skillfull i.e. footwork, post game, 3 pt shooting
MJ much more better athlete (hes arguably top 3 athletic freak with shaq, and lebron (or wilt?))

MJ : taller, bigger version of wade with rondo hand, and still a better athlete

kobe try his hardest to catch up to MJ,
but theres a limit to where hardwork can bring you
Kobe need every single trick in the book to beat his opponent, and must train twice as hard,
while MJ doenst even need to, he can slip pass his opponent like nothing
:rolleyes:

[Mr. Jabbar]

OP didn't know Kobe is way better than Jordan at long range, OP age is rumored to be between 8-12. OP is phlaming phagg.ot.

[no pun intended]

At losing.

[andgar923]

At losing.
:oldlol:

[Ca$H]

I have to say MJ's form looks much better in each of those pictures.

Kobe's face looks much better than Jordan's face though.

[zoom17]

At losing.
:cheers:

[zoom17]

Kobe's face looks much better than Jordan's face though.

queer

[kamil]

Jordan's competitive nature was what really set him off. He knew the public knew he had a small ***** and to compensate for that small *****, his competitive nature was fierce.

How does one become so stupid to make up these kind arguments?

[bdreason]

I agree 3-point shooting is probably Kobe's only advantage. I'm not so sure MJ couldn't have been a better 3 point shooter if he really tried though. MJ was relentless on offense, and almost never settled for 3 point shots, especially early in his career.

[Nevaeh]

'13 Lakers never had title chances. They were a shitty team from the outset of the season.

The 2004 Pistons' great defense didn't deter Shaq from having a great series, and yet Kobe still played horribly.

And what does Jordan's baseball playing have to do with this? We're discussing Jordan's and Kobe's abilities as basketball players (albeit with a significant handcap, due to the fact that you're an idiot) and you bring up Jordan playing baseball? That has nothing to do with anything (although I repeat that I did not expect anything more logical due to your idiocy).


**** off with all of your crap. Or else just post another abysmal attempt at appearing rational, and be prepared to get shot down again.

Peeps quickly forget (or try their damndest to forget) how this team went 0-11 during the preseason last season, and how some peeps were legitimately predicting that they would struggle. Of course, any thing "negative" towards "Gods gift to the game", the Lakers, is considered "trolling" now.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

With that, RRR3's Ether is so strong, we may have to register it as a Lethal Weapon.

:oldlol:

http://lstly.s3.amazonaws.com/2010/146/6687725b-3f5f-4f5b-baac-b57b384c6160.jpg

[eliteballer]

He has more range.

He has better handles.

He's a better shooter off the dribble.

He has more moves because of the aformentioned things. They're also the reason he's a more explosive scorer.

He's more flexible(physically, according to Phil in his new book)

Everything else is close enough.

[Nevaeh]

He has more range.

He has better handles.

He's a better shooter off the dribble.

He has more moves because of the aformentioned things. They're also the reason he's a more explosive scorer.

He's more flexible(physically, according to Phil in his new book)

Everything else is close enough.

Everything you posted would mean something if Kobe managed to shoot above 50% for at least one season. And manage a bit more than 2 lousy scoring titles in 17 (and counting) years of pro B-ball.

:rolleyes:

"Best Shot misser" in the Game? Hands down, I'll give you that much.

[Round Mound]

[B]Kobe More Flexible? :roll: There isn

[TheMan]

According to YMF, Kobe has "never won a ring with an elite shooter".


2000 playoffs:

Rick Fox, 46.2 3P%
Glen Rice, 41.8 3P%
Derek Fisher, 41.4 3P%


2001 playoffs:

Derek Fisher, 51.5 3P%


2002 playoffs:

Robert Horry 38.7 3P%


2009 playoffs:

Lamar Odom, 51.4 3P%
Shannon Brown, 48.0 3P%
Trevor Ariza, 47.6 3P%


2010 playoffs:

Jordan Farmar, 40.0 3P%
Sasha Vujacic, 40.0 3P%





:biggums:
Don't do him like that RRR3!

YMF got ethered:roll:

[funnystuff]

Kobe's face looks much better than Jordan's face though.
Whats this myth going around that Kobe is attractive? Dude is fking ugly. Looks like something straight from Mars.









































http://wilymomoonshot.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/kobe_face.jpg

[9erempiree]

Another thing Kobe is better than MJ at is making the playoffs. He has made it to more playoffs than MJ. That's one thing that is not mentioned. If you need to get to the Finals, you better take Kobe over MJ.

[daily]

queer (http://us.fotolog.com/zoom17/mosaic/)
:wtf:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kobe has more range, better shooting the three off the dribble which makes him the more explosive scorer. Not to be confused with better scorer. Disagree with the comment about handles, they both have great handle for being larger guards. Besides that? MJ is literally better at everything else. In some cases close but in a lot a sizable margin. He was just the absolute perfect combination of what essentially is the two best SGs since MJ, he was a mix of Wade and Kobe. The perfect basketball player at his peak. No question better than Kobe. Both Wade and Kobe are both MJ lites of different points of his career.

[RRR3]

Another thing Kobe is better than MJ at is making the playoffs. He has made it to more playoffs than MJ. That's one thing that is not mentioned. If you need to get to the Finals, you better take Kobe over MJ.
http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/mj-laughing.gif

[Legends66NBA7]

Couple of things that were already mentioned.

Kobe's game resembles more of Rick Barry than Jordan.

[SamuraiSWISH]

If you need to get to the Finals, you better take Kobe over MJ.
And then once you reach the Finals, trade back for Jordan. Or even Wade. Because Kobe obviously wets the bed in the Finals. He just doesn't play that great on the game's brightest stage.

If the Lakers can't get either of those guys, make sure Kobe is surrounded with one of the following: Shaq, Gasol, or Artest to bail him out of poor NBA Finals performances.

:applause:

[eliteballer]

Kobe has 2 bad finals and both of them had to do with physical issues...and Wade plays nothing like Jordan. Wade is extremely reliant on screens and his game has always been mostly slashing with a little jumpshooting thrown in.

Jordan was always a combination of off the ball shooting, slashing, and some post game.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kobe had arguably 4 bad Finals, 3 of them for sure (2004, 2008, 2010) ... and injuries weren't the excuse. He played poorly. Bad mentality, selfish, shot bad, played into good defenses hands and never adjusted ... couldn't get to the rim to make the game easier on himself and teammates.

Just not a very impressive NBA Finals performer. Oh well.

Wade in his prime played like a poor man's young MJ from '85 - '89. Insanely quick off the dribble, attacked the rim relentlessly. MJ had the better natural jumper ... but similar. Kobe in his prime played like either a very slightly better or around equal version '96 - '96 Jordan but with more ball in hand type looks than Jordan.

Prime MJ '90 - '93 was the perfect mixture of both. He could beat you with the jumper, post game, or he could take you to the rack and finish. No weakness. And MJ was always a better catch and shoot player than either of these guys. He didn't need the ball in his hands at all times.

Wade is the shot blocking, help defender like MJ, and when Kobe tries he has similar abilities to MJ's consistent man defensive abilities.

MJ is the best of both Wade and Kobe combined.

[NumberSix]

Kobe has 2 bad finals and both of them had to do with physical issues...and Wade plays nothing like Jordan. Wade is extremely reliant on screens and his game has always been mostly slashing with a little jumpshooting thrown in.

Jordan was always a combination of off the ball shooting, slashing, and some post game.
Only 2? C'mon son. :no:

[NumberSix]

I think Kobe's strength over Jordan was he was a more skilled player while Jordan was stronger athletically and mentally. Kobe had more skill, but Jordan had the better iq and strategic mind to apply his skills appropriately. Not to say Jordan didn't force things, but not to the degree Kobe has.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I think Kobe's strength over Jordan was he was a more skilled player
Which skills, in your opinion? This should be interesting.

[Electric Slide]

I liked Indian guy's assessment on this. Kobe probably had flashier handles and could create off the dribbler better but most of the time Kobe still took idiotic shots anyways. Jordan was better at protecting the ball though.

[NumberSix]

Which skills, in your opinion? This should be interesting.
I think he could handle the ball better, shoot better, more skilled passer (inb4 explosion), more diverse scoring repertoire.... Just in general, individual skills

Jordan obviously beats him physically. Kobe can't move like Jordan. Doesn't have his physical strength. Doesn't apply his skills in a maximized way. Doesn't apply his skills to team gameplay as much as he could.

[G-Funk]

how is Wade a top 25 player at best even comparable to the Goat? No jump shot, no post game

[red1]

how is Wade a top 25 player at best even comparable to the Goat? No jump shot, no post game
prime wade = prime kobe
kobe's career> wade's career

get your facts straight

[SamuraiSWISH]

I liked Indian guy's assessment on this. Kobe probably had flashier handles and could create off the dribbler better but most of the time Kobe still took idiotic shots anyways. Jordan was better at protecting the ball though.
Kobe's got the And 1 / Iverson era handles, no doubt. I don't think that makes him the better ball handler, either. MJ had his fair share of flashy moves with the ball in his hands. I say they're equal. Kobe's handle hasn't been the same since 2008 after all those finger injuries, anyway.

But otherwise, I like Indian Guy's assessment too. I do not feel Kobe is more skilled post player. I feel footwork wise they are equal in those regards. MJ got more separation due to his phsyical quickness advantages, though.

The only thing I can confidently say Kobe has on Jordan is range, and the ability to shoot the three off the dribble. Kobe's willingness to shoot that shot regularly is also why his approach makes him less efficient than Jordan.

Kobe along with MJ, Bird, Reggie, Jerry West are probably the best shot makers in league history. All could make difficult shots.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Is this another thread where people pretend the defenses Kobe faced in the Finals are not statistically superior in every way imaginable that the creampuffs Wade and Jordan faced?

:oldlol:

[IGOTGAME]

Kobe has Goat flexibility at the two guard spot.

[TonyMontana]

Kobe has 2 bad finals and both of them had to do with physical issues

Im counting more than 2.

00: 15.6 PPG 36.7% shooting 35.2 MPG
01: 24.6 PPG 41.5% shooting
02: 26.8 PPG 51.4% shooting
04: 22.6 PPG 38.1% shooting
08: 25.7 PPG 40.5% shooting
09: 32.4 PPG 43% shooting
10: 28.6 PPG 40.5% shooting

Out of 7 finals, Kobes shot better than 43% only one time. And its not a coincidence it was vs the weakest Finals opponent. :roll:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Is this another thread where people pretend the defenses Kobe faced in the Finals are not statistically superior in every way imaginable that the creampuffs Wade and Jordan faced?

:oldlol:
Wade, LeBron and Jordan faired better statistically against similarly ranked defenses as to the ones Kobe struggled with. See Wade torching Detroit in 2005, Kobe struggled with the summer before. Wade destroying Boston in 2010, Kobe struggled with again.

Difference? Those three guys played in the Eastern Conference. They faced them in the Eastern Conference Playoffs as opposed to the Finals. The Eastern Conference is usually the superior conference defensively.

LeBron is easily the better player compared to Kobe against elite defenses. Wade slightly better as well. Kobe feasts on shit opponents usually. See his 81 point game. Where were these outburts in the playoffs and Finals?

And for sheer entertainment, the "creampuff" defensive ranking for the teams Jordan faced in the Finals or en route to his 6 championships.

And for the people that don't need it explained, defensive ranking alone doesn't equate to a quality opponent. See the 2009 Magic, one of the worst Final's participants in sometime. So in some cases I added top ranked offensive rankings as well.

1991 Pistons: 4th ranked defense
1991 Lakers: 5th ranked defense (5th offense)
1992 Knicks: 2nd ranked defense
1992 Blazers: 3rd ranked defense
1993 Cavaliers: 6th ranked defense
1993 Knicks: 1st ranked defense
1993 Suns: 9th ranked defense (1st offense)
1996 Knicks: 4th ranked defense
1996 Sonics: 2nd ranked defense
1997 Hawks: 3rd ranked defense
1997 Heat: 1st ranked defense
1997 Jazz: 9th ranked defense (2nd offense)
1998 Pacers: 5th ranked defense
1998 Jazz: 17th ranked defense (1st offense)

[9erempiree]

Once these guys bring Wade in the argument, all credibility is thrown out.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Wade, LeBron and Jordan faired better statistically against similarly ranked defenses as to the ones Kobe struggled with. See Wade torching Detroit in 2005, Kobe struggled with the summer before. Wade destroying Boston in 2010, Kobe struggled with again.

Difference? Those three guys played in the Eastern Conference. They faced them in the Eastern Conference Playoffs as opposed to the Finals. The Eastern Conference is usually the superior conference defensively.

LeBron is easily the better player compared to Kobe against elite defenses. Wade slightly better as well. Kobe feasts on shit opponents usually. See his 81 point game. Where were these outburts in the playoffs and Finals?

And for sheer entertainment, the "creampuff" defensive ranking for the teams Jordan faced in the Finals or en route to his 6 championships.

And for the people that don't need it explained, defensive ranking alone doesn't equate to a quality opponent. See the 2009 Magic, one of the worst Final's participants in sometime. So in some cases I added top ranked offensive rankings as well.

1991 Pistons: 4th ranked defense
1991 Lakers: 5th ranked defense (5th offense)
1992 Knicks: 2nd ranked defense
1992 Blazers: 3rd ranked defense
1993 Cavaliers: 6th ranked defense
1993 Knicks: 1st ranked defense
1993 Suns: 9th ranked defense (1st offense)
1996 Knicks: 4th ranked defense
1996 Sonics: 2nd ranked defense
1997 Hawks: 3rd ranked defense
1997 Heat: 1st ranked defense
1997 Jazz: 9th ranked defense (2nd offense)
1998 Pacers: 5th ranked defense
1998 Jazz: 17th ranked defense (1st offense)


Great offensive performances against top ranked defenses in an offensive friendly league <<<< great offensive performances against top ranked defenses in a a defensive friendly league.


I really want to write a detailed analysis in full when I find the time, but consider this brief breakdown of the best and worst opponent defenses for just Jordan, Wade, LeBron and Kobe. (These include series prior to 91 and were compiled before the 2010 playoffs, so slightly out of date).

These 4 guys have played a series against an opponent with a defensive rating better than 102 on 27 occasions in their careers:
3 times for Jordan - 3 series wins against 93 NY, 97 MIA, 98 IND, includes No Finals, 1 series against ratings better than 100
3 times for Wade - 3 series losses against 04 IND, 05 DET, 07 CHI, includes No Finals, 2 series against ratings better than 100
3 times for LeBron - 3 series losses against 07 SA, 08 BOS, 09 ORL, includes 1 Finals, 2 series against ratings better than 100
18 times for Kobe - 14 series wins, 4 series losses, includes 5 Finals, 13 series against ratings better than 100 including 4 Finals

These 4 guys have played a series against an opponent with a defensive rating worse than 106 on 29 occasions in their careers:
16 times for Jordan - Includes 1 Finals (2 other Finals in the 105s, 2 more in the 104s), 6 series against rating worse than 108
2 times for Wade - Includes 0 Finals (06 DAL at 105), No series against rating worse than 108
6 times for LeBron - Includes 0 Finals, 3 series against ratings worse than 108
5 times for Kobe - Includes 0 Finals, No series against ratings worse than 108

[eliteballer]

LOL @ using the 93 Suns as an example of a great defensive team...they might be the worst defensive team to EVER make the Finals.

[eliteballer]

and there is very little difference between them physically. Hell Jim Cleamons said he thought Kobe was a bit faster.

This is Jordan in real time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91Tmg96qq7k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIPQZTBr0r0


People have distorted views of him from years of poor quality highlight vids with ridiculous framerates and aspect ratios on youtube. You see videos of Wade that look like he was shot out of a cannon but he doesn't move like that in real life.

Before the rise of youtube with bad FPS videos years ago NO one said Jordan had some huge athletic advantage.

Compare that first Jordan video to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ0RFja2znY

and thats Jordan at what, 23 vs. Kobe at 21.

[9erempiree]

Seriously, we know MJ was great but let's not act like he's better than everyone at everything. It's sad when you can clearly see Kobe is better than MJ at a lot of things. MJ is better than Kobe at half the things and Kobe is better at half too.

I like how people bring up this ridiculous statement that MJ has better handles than Kobe because of bigger hands. Try dribbling a volleyball compared to a basketball. Big hands actually hurt your handles.

So many people are so ignorant.:facepalm

[9erempiree]

If anything MJ is a bland version of Kobe. Kobe is a flashier version of MJ.

[Asukal]

and there is very little difference between them physically. Hell Jim Cleamons said he thought Kobe was a bit faster.

This is Jordan in real time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91Tmg96qq7k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIPQZTBr0r0


People have distorted views of him from years of poor quality highlight vids with ridiculous framerates and aspect ratios on youtube. You see videos of Wade that look like he was shot out of a cannon but he doesn't move like that in real life.

Before the rise of youtube with bad FPS videos years ago NO one said Jordan had some huge athletic advantage.

Compare that first Jordan video to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ0RFja2znY

and thats Jordan at what, 23 vs. Kobe at 21.

Wow! Kobe so fast he got charged with rape. :roll: :roll: :roll:

[SuperPippen]

I hope you Kobe stans realize how much of a disservice you are doing to your deity Kobe Bryant with all of these futile Jordan comparisons

He isn't as good as Michael Jordan. He just isn't. That is the consensus reality. And no matter how much you try to delude yourselves and delude others into thinking that that's not the case, no matter how many attempts you make to bring up these misguided facts and statistics to aid your argument, he just isn't as great. You all subconsciously know this.

But Kobe is still a legend. He's still one of the most memorable, entertaining, greatest players of all time. He is his own player. And endlessly comparing him to an eve greater player will only make Kobe look worse by comparison. No body cares that player like Bird or Magic haven't accumulated as much acclaim or as many accolades as MJ, because they're still legends in their own right, amazing players who have carved out their own legacies and have established their greatness.

It's the same thing with Kobe. Accept the fact that he is his own legend, and stop making these idiotic comparisons. Quit obsessing over these "all-time GOAT rankings" and just enjoy the game.

[9erempiree]

I hope you Kobe stans realize how much of a disservice you are doing to your deity Kobe Bryant with all of these futile Jordan comparisons

He isn't as good as Michael Jordan. He just isn't. That is the consensus reality. And no matter how much you try to delude yourselves and delude others into thinking that that's not the case, no matter how many attempts you make to bring up these misguided facts and statistics to aid your argument, he just isn't as great. You all subconsciously know this.

But Kobe is still a legend. He's still one of the most memorable, entertaining, greatest players of all time. He is his own player. And endlessly comparing him to an eve greater player will only make Kobe look worse by comparison. No body cares that player like Bird or Magic haven't accumulated as much acclaim or as many accolades as MJ, because they're still legends in their own right, amazing players who have carved out their own legacies and have established their greatness.

It's the same thing with Kobe. Accept the fact that he is his own legend, and stop making these idiotic comparisons. Quit obsessing over these "all-time GOAT rankings" and just enjoy the game.

I would have to disagree and also agree.

I disagree the part about Kobe being less of a player than MJ. I believe he is equally as good and better. Nostalgia is a bitch and I don't think anyone wants to admit he's better than MJ. It's politically correct to say MJ is the best. People want to avoid confrontation and argument. When it can be argued that Kobe is better than MJ.

I agree with the fact that Kobe is his own player. I find it repulsive that MJ fans like to compare him to Kobe. It's like a way to keep their beloved MJ relevant in basketball discussion when the man is already long retired.

People like to bring up MJ like he's some god and say Kobe copied MJ. I can bring up plays and videos of Kobe doing moves that MJ never did or couldn't do.

When it comes down to these Kobe and MJ threads, I like to come to a common ground and say put their names in a hat and pick. Whomever, names come up is the better player because essentially you can make a case for one over the other.

These two will go down as the 2 greatest players in history.

[SuperPippen]

I would have to disagree and also agree.

I disagree the part about Kobe being less of a player than MJ. I believe he is equally as good and better. Nostalgia is a bitch and I don't think anyone wants to admit he's better than MJ. It's politically correct to say MJ is the best. People want to avoid confrontation and argument. When it can be argued that Kobe is better than MJ.

I agree with the fact that Kobe is his own player. I find it repulsive that MJ fans like to compare him to Kobe. It's like a way to keep their beloved MJ relevant in basketball discussion when the man is already long retired.

People like to bring up MJ like he's some god and say Kobe copied MJ. I can bring up plays and videos of Kobe doing moves that MJ never did or couldn't do.

When it comes down to these Kobe and MJ threads, I like to come to a common ground and say put their names in a hat and pick. Whomever, names come up is the better player because essentially you can make a case for one over the other.

These two will go down as the 2 greatest players in history.


:facepalm

I guess I was fool for expecting you to understand reason.

If you honestly think that Kobe has a case for the GOAT, whatever. Basic logic and reason would tell you differently, but ultimately, these are all just opinions.

But why do you insist on miring in delusion? YOU are the one who constantly creates threads belittling Jordan, YOU are the one who seemingly cannot do anything but worship Kobe while attempting to tarnish the legacies of other players, YOU are the one who has created at least 3 accounts on this website solely so you can slurp Kobe's jizz.

Don't waste your life idolizing someone who couldn't care less about you. Go out and get laid, virgin. Trust me, dedicating your time to having an actual life and interacting with real people is time much better spent than time trolling a message board and fantasizing about Kobe Bryant.

You are the most pathetic internet poster I've ever seen - and I used to post on 4chan. But things can always change, man.

[9erempiree]

If you honestly think that Kobe has a case for the GOAT, whatever. Basic logic and reason would tell you differently, but ultimately, these are all just opinions.



I find it funny that you tell me to use basic logic and reason but you are not doing the very same thing you are telling me to do.

Basic logic and reason would also tell you he is one of the greatest of all time.

You just said yourself, he is one of the greatest players of all time. So suddenly one of the greatest players of all time has no case for being greatest player of all time?

Ok. :facepalm

[Nevaeh]

Is this another thread where people pretend the defenses Kobe faced in the Finals are not statistically superior in every way imaginable that the creampuffs Wade and Jordan faced?

:oldlol:

Is this where you pretend that Kobe actually didn't take stupid shots against those same defenses, making them look better than they should have, considering he had a teammate who made those same defenses his b!tch?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/confusedshrug.gif

You've been Ethered to hell and back already dude, just let it go.

[comerb]

Free throws and 3s.

[comerb]

If anything MJ is a bland version of Kobe. Kobe is a flashier version of MJ.

If by flashier you mean Kobe takes a lot of stupid low % shots... sure.

[juju151111]

Is this another thread where people pretend the defenses Kobe faced in the Finals are not statistically superior in every way imaginable that the creampuffs Wade and Jordan faced?

:oldlol:
Didn't you get destroyed a few pages ago. Why you know coming back? Go sit your dumbass down.

[KingBeasley08]

damn YMF got ethered. shiiit

[LikeABosh]

Kobe is a look and Jordan. /Thread

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Didn't you get destroyed a few pages ago. Why you know coming back? Go sit your dumbass down.

Link?

Are you guys still going with that Odom and Ariza are "elite shooters" theory?

:oldlol:

[NBASTATMAN]

Kobe has 2 bad finals and both of them had to do with physical issues...and Wade plays nothing like Jordan. Wade is extremely reliant on screens and his game has always been mostly slashing with a little jumpshooting thrown in.

Jordan was always a combination of off the ball shooting, slashing, and some post game.


MJ transitioned from an on the ball player in his earlier days to off the ball to allow Pippen more duties. This is something Kobe has never been capable of doing. He has played with Payton and Nash yet he still needs the ball in his hands.. His inability to dominate without the ball is a biggie..


Kobe is a better dribbler and has a better jump shot from beyond 22ft.. There is no argument for Kobe as a better mid range shooter.. kOBE is also better at shooting miracle shots.. But not on MJ's level in terms of clutch shot making..

[NBASTATMAN]

Im counting more than 2.

00: 15.6 PPG 36.7% shooting 35.2 MPG
01: 24.6 PPG 41.5% shooting
02: 26.8 PPG 51.4% shooting
04: 22.6 PPG 38.1% shooting
08: 25.7 PPG 40.5% shooting
09: 32.4 PPG 43% shooting
10: 28.6 PPG 40.5% shooting

Out of 7 finals, Kobes shot better than 43% only one time. And its not a coincidence it was vs the weakest Finals opponent. :roll:


You forgot to point out that Kobe shot under 30 percent in the fourth quarter of his last 2 finals:hammertime:



VERY 2011 LEBRON LIKE

[alleykat]

Nope...maybe 3pt...cant beat the OG of your playing style...

Kobe should've picked sumone else's shoes to fill....would've stood out more and maybe made it higher on the top 10 list

Well if he is in ur top 10...

[Ca$H]

Whats this myth going around that Kobe is attractive? Dude is fking ugly. Looks like something straight from Mars.










































http://wilymomoonshot.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/kobe_face.jpg


:facepalm LOL at using that pic as an example. The quote you responded to was in reference to pics of young Kobe(his good looking peak)

Male supermodel Kobe with female supermodel Tyra Banks:

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_laes2xTgrH1qa2ol0o1_500.jpg

ESPN magazine cover or People Magazine's America Sexiest Man Alive Cover?

http://espn.go.com/i/magazine/covers/vol_04/04_02_1_lg.jpg

[julizaver]

BINGO:cheers:

We can see MJs enormous fingers, comparing to that of Kobe. :)))

[poido123]

Kobe attracts better looking girls, has flashier dribbling skills and gets hot offensively better than Jordan. Maybe throw in a slightly better 3pt shooter.

Other than that, nothing else IMO.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Im counting more than 2.

00: 15.6 PPG 36.7% shooting 35.2 MPG
01: 24.6 PPG 41.5% shooting
02: 26.8 PPG 51.4% shooting
04: 22.6 PPG 38.1% shooting
08: 25.7 PPG 40.5% shooting
09: 32.4 PPG 43% shooting
10: 28.6 PPG 40.5% shooting

Out of 7 finals, Kobes shot better than 43% only one time. And its not a coincidence it was vs the weakest Finals opponent. :roll:
All of those opponents except '00 Pacers and '09 Magic had a DRTG better than 100.

Jordan in his two playoff series vs a defense with a 100 DRTG:

'93 ECF vs New York: 32.2 ppg / .400 fg% / .400 3p%
'97 ECF vs Miami: 30.2 ppg / .386 fg% / .118 3p% (100.6 DRTG rating)

The GOAT shot 40% or under when he faced a similar defensive leveled team.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Kobe has 2 bad finals and both of them had to do with physical issues..

2? Try 4 or 5:

2000 - 19/6/4/37% FG (note: this is excluding the game where he hurt himself early and didn't return)

2001 - 25/8/6/41% FG

2004 - 23/3/4/38% FG

2008 - 26/5/5/40% FG

2009 - 29/8/4/41% FG

[Glide2keva]

Are we REALLY saying that Michael ****ing Redd was an all time great defender now? The depths that kobe stans will sink to to prop their boy up is ridculous.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Are we REALLY saying that Michael ****ing Redd was an all time great defender now? The depths that kobe stans will sink to to prop their boy up is ridculous.

Who said anything about Michael Redd's defense? I'm pretty sure I'm the only who mentioned him and its in reference to how his offensive numbers were impacted by the 04 Pistons in the playoffs. :facepalm

[The_Yearning]

http://tajtorrence.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/michael-jordan-and-kobe-bryant.jpg
Kobe copied Jordan .

Goddamn Kobe even copied the facial expression :facepalm

[rhythmic]

2? Try 4 or 5:

2000 - 19/6/4/37% FG (note: this is excluding the game where he hurt himself early and didn't return)

2001 - 25/8/6/41% FG

2004 - 23/3/4/38% FG

2008 - 26/5/5/40% FG

2009 - 29/8/4/41% FG

2000 - He twisted his ankle early in that series and struggled there after. Why are excluding the game he got hurt? He was hurt the REST of that series smart ass. The guy shot 12 for 47 after he tried to play through the injury, LA lost the game he didn't play in. He shot close to 47% if you don't include the two games he was hurt. Poor decision making on his part? Of course but he was still injured and couldn't get the proper elevation on his shots, therefore he struggled shooting. He shot 30 for 62 before his injury...that's 48 FG%.

2001 - Kobe shot 44 for 106 (42 FG%). His first and last games were bad, but he played great in games 2, 3 & 4. 25/8/6 on a solid 46%. He did struggle in game 1 though, I'll give you that. Philadelphia had the #5 defensive rating that year, and held opponents to .429 FG%.


2004 - Kobe played dreadfully. Besides game 2, where he shot 50%+ and hit the gamer winner, he was shooting in the low 30's in the rest of the games. He was just terrible, 38%. This & LeBron's 2007 finals are two of the worst (if not the worst) by a superstar in league history, no doubt about it. Detroit had the #2 defensive rating that year, and held opponents to .413 FG%

2008 - Another poor shooting performance for Kobe against a team that was 1st in defensive rating and held opponents to .419 FG%. Kobe shot 40%.

2009 - Kobe shot 58 for 135, that's 43 FG%. Not 41% like you mentioned, you agenda driven Jordan nut rider. Orlando had the #1 defensive rating that season by the way. Holding opponents to 43 FG%.

Now lets educate ourselves on how Kobe, Jordan & LeBron performed in the NBA finals, and against whom shall we? I mean numbers without context is just numbers, and therefore are really irrelevant for comparison.

Kobe

2010

Boston: 5th in DEF rating, 95.6 OPPG (5th) & .451 opponent FG% (9th)

2009

Orlando: 1st in DEF rating, 94.4 OPPG (6th) & .433 opponent FG% (3rd)

2008

Boston: 1st in DEF rating, 90.3 OPPG (2nd) & .419 opponent FG% (1st)

2004

Detroit: 2nd in DEF rating, 84.3 OPPG (2nd) & .413 opponent FG% (2nd)

2002

Nets: 1st in DEF rating, 92 OPPG (5th) & .429 opponent FG% (6th)

2001

Sixers: 5th in DEF rating, 90.4 OPPG (5th) & .429 opponent FG% (5th)

2000

Pacers: 13th in DEF rating, 96.7 OPPG (12th) & .446 (12th)

Jordan

1991

Lakers: 5th in DEF rating, 99.6 OPPG (2nd) & .462 opponent FG% (8th)

1992

Blazers: 3rd in DEF rating, 104.1 OPPG (12th) & .454 opponent FG% (3rd)

1993

Phoenix: 9th in DEF rating, 106.7 OPPG (18th) & .479 opponent FG% (17th)

1996

Seattle: 2nd in DEF rating, 96.7 OPPG (8th) & .438 opponent FG% (2nd)

FINALLY a defense that was somewhat similar to what Kobe faced 5/6 times in his career. Lets see how Jordan shot in this series shall we?
He shot 51 for 123 (41 FG%) :oldlol: BIG SHOCKER...

1997

Utah: 9th in DEF rating, 94.3 OPPG (8th) & .438 opponent FG% (6th)

1998

Utah: 17th in DEF rating, 94.4 OPPG (13th) & .439 opponent FG% (9th)
Jordan shot 70 for 164 (43 FG%)
That's against the 17th best ranked defense in the league. Just to buy you guys a clue, Kobe in 7th NBA finals, has never faced a defense as bad as Utah's was that year. Jordan shot 43%, and shot 41% against the toughest defense he's faced in his career during an NBA finals. Just to give you another clue, Kobe has faced a defense that was similar (or better) then Seattle's defense FOUR times in his 7 NBA finals appearances.

LeBron

2007

Spurs: 2nd in DEF rating, 90.1 OPPG (1st) & .443 opponent FG% (10th)
James shot 32 for 90 (36 FG%)

2011

Mavericks: 8th in DEF rating, 96 OPPG (10th) & .450 opponent FG% (8th)
James shot 43 for 90 (48%) in probably the most humiliating series by a "superstar" in league history. Guy shot like 25% in the 4th quarter and was too scared to attempt a shot when his teammates needed him the most.

2012

Thunder: 11th in DEF rating, 96.9 OPPG (17th) & .427 opponent FG% (4th)
LeBron shot 51 for 108 (47 FG%)

2013

Spurs: 3rd in DEF rating, 96.6 OPPG (11th) & .442 (8th)
LeBron shot 67 for 150 (45 FG%).
Had 2 great shooting games out of 7, for a 6'8 SF who shot 56% in the regular season against a defense that is inferior to FIVE teams Kobe faced in the NBA finals.

Sure LeBron & Jordan shot better then Kobe; but yet against a similar defense that Kobe faced FIVE times in his career, both Jordan and LeBron played poorly (shooting 36% & 41% respectively). Jordan even shot 43% against a pretty mediocre defense (Utah) in 98'.

Times these players faced a top 5 defense?

Kobe 6 out of 7 times
Jordan 3 out of 6 times
James 2 out of 4 times

But to get an even better picture of just how better the defense Kobe went up against then Jordan or LeBron, take a look at these staggering numbers jack asses.

Kobe: 4th in DEF rating, 91.9 PPG (5th) & .431 (5th)
Jordan: 8th in DEF rating, 99.3 PPG (10th) & .452 (8th)
LeBron: 6th in DEF rating, 94.9 OPPG (10th) & .441 (8th)

*The ranks are the accumulative effect of how the teams these players faced would rank against league averages during each respective season.

Top 5 teams these 3 players faced based on PPG:

1) Detroit (Kobe)
2) Spurs (LeBron)
3) Boston (Kobe) - 2008
4) Sixers (Kobe)
5) Nets (Kobe)

Top 5 teams these 3 players have faced based on FG%:

1) Detroit (Kobe)
2) Boston (Kobe) - 2008
3) Thunder (LeBron)
4) Nets (Kobe)
5) Sixers (Kobe)

Top 5 Teams based on defensive rating

1) Pistons (Kobe)
2) Boston - 2008 (Kobe)
3) Magic (Kobe)
4) Nets (Kobe
5) Spurs - 2007 (LeBron)

:roll: Enjoy the ETHER.

Best Regards,
Rt

[juju151111]

Link?

Are you guys still going with that Odom and Ariza are "elite shooters" theory?

:oldlol:
Go back to page 4 and start reading. You got destroyed. Lmao

[SamuraiSWISH]

Goddamn Kobe even copied the facial expression :facepalm
"My favorite player was Magic." ~ Kobe

[riseagainst]

Better handle, mostly in terms of isolation play with a live dribble, although I would say he's slightly better at most other aspects of dribbling too. Having binged on his highlights lately, I would say he has better footwork too.

:bowdown:

never thought I'd see this: Kobe has better footwork than MJ.

:bowdown:

[Stringer Bell]

Better long range shooter.


I think he could handle the ball better, shoot better, more skilled passer (inb4 explosion), more diverse scoring repertoire.... Just in general, individual skills

Jordan obviously beats him physically. Kobe can't move like Jordan. Doesn't have his physical strength. Doesn't apply his skills in a maximized way. Doesn't apply his skills to team gameplay as much as he could.

I don't know about the skilled passing and the diverse scoring repertoire. Jordan's repertoire, particularly in before baseball, was insanely diverse.

[7_cody]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[kamil]

:facepalm

There is no scientific evidence suggesting any links b/w HGH use and hair loss. It would be anabolic-androgenic steroids that would cause him to lose his hair, and if he was really on HGH, then he was definitely on the juice.

And so are most top athletes in most sports whether you people like it or not.

This is true. Actually, what kills your hair follicles is high levels of DHT (dihydrotestosterone). Its converted from testosterone. HGH would have to heighten T levels, but it doesn't do that. However T levels get converted to DHT thus hair follicle miniaturization and eventual complete baldness should hair loss be progressive. Considering that MJ's father was completely bald, its more than likely it was hereditary. If anything, HGH would actually help with hair loss as it could potentially help hair follicles as each individual hair follicle is a single organoid.

Only way MJ could have held onto his hair would have been through the use of DHT inhibitors like Finasteride, more commonly known as propecia. But since that wasn't available until around the mid 90s, it wouldn't have mattered. Minoxidil (active ingredient in Rogaine) could have potentially regrown some, but that wasn't available until late 80s either. By that time, MJ already lost a significant amount of hair. Its likely his hair loss was in a diffuse thinning pattern. Probably noticed it go thin everywhere so he shaved it all off. Where as guys like LeBron* it starts off with the hairline and then creeps back and starts to thin out everywhere else later on. I

Now, putting aside how stupid 9erempiree is and his claims that MJ had small d!ck syndrome, there's no way MJ would have taken Finasteride as it fvcks with hormones, sexual drive and can cause impotence. So he probably valued (as he should) a functioning d!ck rather than his hair. Minoxidil could have also had side effects such as rapid heart beat. Neither are a steroid however NBA could have potentially had regulations on the two and I'm sure team owners/managers would be against the use of Minoxidil considering its potential dangers to an athletes heart.

As for 9erempiree' clueless buttbuddy Trollsmasher, MJ's body in later years developed more as he trained much harder to overcome the Pistons. This is known, but those with an agenda against MJ will say otherwise. I see this often from LeBron* stans but they never say anything about the whopping difference in body size between LeBron* in his first few years vs. his* current years.

In summation: 9erempiree and Trollsmasher are both ignorant fools.

[Stringer Bell]

I hope you Kobe stans realize how much of a disservice you are doing to your deity Kobe Bryant with all of these futile Jordan comparisons

He isn't as good as Michael Jordan. He just isn't. That is the consensus reality. And no matter how much you try to delude yourselves and delude others into thinking that that's not the case, no matter how many attempts you make to bring up these misguided facts and statistics to aid your argument, he just isn't as great. You all subconsciously know this.

But Kobe is still a legend. He's still one of the most memorable, entertaining, greatest players of all time. He is his own player. And endlessly comparing him to an eve greater player will only make Kobe look worse by comparison. No body cares that player like Bird or Magic haven't accumulated as much acclaim or as many accolades as MJ, because they're still legends in their own right, amazing players who have carved out their own legacies and have established their greatness.

It's the same thing with Kobe. Accept the fact that he is his own legend, and stop making these idiotic comparisons. Quit obsessing over these "all-time GOAT rankings" and just enjoy the game.

It would have been nicer to just watch Kobe play and enjoy him for what he is instead of all these damn Jordan comparisons. It's like the Jordan worshippers got scared that Kobe would match Jordan's greatness, and Kobe's worshippers delude themselves into thinking that Kobe is MJ's equal (or better than him).

MJ is better than Kobe. So what? And then Lebron always has gotten MJ comparisons. I like doing comparisons, but the media and fans go overboard with it and it gets tiresome.

[justin12140]

I think Kobe has better footwork then Jordan did. Besides that hes a better shooter behind the 3 point line

[SamuraiSWISH]

Besides that hes a better shooter behind the 3 point line
Probably about it. Everything else is at worst a wash between the two.

[air mamba]

kobe's a better ball handler

just as good as a shot creator

and is a better overall shooter.

Jordan's better everywhere else but kobe keeps up with him in most things.

[OmniStrife]

Losing in the finals...?

[air mamba]

kobe's better looking, jordan is ugly and dont even get me started on lebron.

[nashwade]

people will always compare Kobe with MJ because Kobe models his play after MJ

and now there is another called Paul George trying the same gig

[julizaver]

I could only laugh about MJ copied Bryant.

MJ had an unique style.
Example, MJ doesn't do 360s dunks (although I have seen) because he considered them as D. Wilkins signature dunks.