Dwight Howard at PF

[SCdac]

how do you think that experiment will turn out?

he played PF his first couple seasons in the league but was younger, not quite as bulky.... Mchale is talking about experimenting in training camp

[Heavincent]

Howard and Asik is a pretty bad combination. Floor spacing will be horrible.

[CanYouDigIt]

Asik for Ryan Anderson

Asik for Boozer

Asik for anyone who can make a jumpshot and play PF

[Jameerthefear]

Asik for Ryan Anderson

Asik for Boozer

Asik for anyone who can make a jumpshot and play PF
Asik for Boozer? That's a terrible trade.

[CanYouDigIt]

Asik for Boozer? That's a terrible trade.
Sorry, I don't have my hawkfan avi on.

Still, the trade looks decent for both teams.

Bulls get a good backup for Noah and they can run a Twin Towers lineup against the Heat.

Rockets get a good at-the-rim and mid range scorer and rebounder in Boozer.

[Jameerthefear]

Sorry, I don't have my hawkfan avi on.

Still, the trade looks decent for both teams.

Bulls get a good backup for Noah and they can run a Twin Towers lineup against the Heat.

Rockets get a good at-the-rim and mid range scorer and rebounder in Boozer.
Boozer's contract is pretty bad, and he's declining. Not to mention he's a terrible defender and his offense doesn't make up too much of that...

[LongLiveTheKing]

The lane will be clogged with Asik and Howard.
Defense might be good unless the other team plays small ball.

[CarlosBoozer]

Boozer's contract is pretty bad, and he's declining. Not to mention he's a terrible defender and his offense doesn't make up too much of that...
You stupid child, the whole point of putting me with howard is so he can cover for my defense while I can concentrate on my offense, which is very effective.

[Trollsmasher]

Dat spacing:facepalm

[Jameerthefear]

You stupid child, the whole point of putting me with howard is so he can cover for my defense while I can concentrate on my offense, which is very effective.
Sorry Carlos :(

[daily]

After 3 days with Hakeem Mchale is already looking for ways to get the ball out of his hands

[xoneatom]

him playing pf will be like rondo without his passing ability. but I guess that's better than Bosh and Gasol shooting 3's :confusedshrug:

[bdreason]

Howard and Asik front court won't work in the modern NBA. Especially with two guards in Harden and Lin who need spacing.

[PickernRoller]

Dwight "No Jumper" Howard at PF? :lol :lol Lol good luck! :roll: :roll:

[russwest0]

This would be hilarious to watch in the playoffs.

OKC would just put KD at the 4 and the domination would ensue

[Real Men Wear Green]

It's not such a horrible idea. Spacing is a legit concern but what about the benefit of a potential twin tower defense? They could make it extremely hard to score in the paint and they could also win the mismatches most of the time. Howard is mobile and would do a better job of covering stretch 4s than that perimeter PF is going to do of covering him in the paint. It's not guaranteed to work well of course but that's why it's called an experiment. If it turns out to be more negative than positive they can just stop.

[razzredazzre]

I used to say they should try this out when the Lakers were struggling. Put Pau down the block more and let Howard play the four using his quickness.

It might work but mobile stretch PF's who can really shoot are gonna create a lot of match up problems.

Just think about it... Howard trying to guard Ryan Anderson or Josh Smith?

[Shade8780]

Why do the Pelicans even need Anderson? Davis is not a 5 and Anderson would be much more needed in Houston. Asik for Anderson is a perfect trade for both teams.

[Johnny Jones]

Why do the Pelicans even need Anderson? Davis is not a 5 and Anderson would be much more needed in Houston. Asik for Anderson is a perfect trade for both teams.
:facepalm

Davis is not a 5 right now but he is the team's future center. AD has a massive frame if he fills out he will be fine.

and we have a poor man's Asik in Greg Stiemsma.

Also, Anderson fits our team better than one might think. With Holiday/Gordon/Reke, we need to take an opposing big out of the paint so all 3 can go to work attacking the basket.. and Anderson does that with his shooting.

[PJR]

They have a decent enough combination of youth, athleticism, and perimeter shooting to be able to make if work on both ends of the floor.

[SCdac]

This would be hilarious to watch in the playoffs.

OKC would just put KD at the 4 and the domination would ensue

Agreed. putting somebody like KD or Josh Smith in at the 4 would be an easy way to take Dwight/Asik off the floor.

[Kblaze8855]

It would be fine. 4/5 combos have been made of non shooters without incident for 60 years. Even 4s with decent 15 footers arent exactly spacing the floor much when many of those jumpers are uncontested because their man doesnt respect them as a real scoring option.

Bynum and Sideshow bob are about to be on the floor together a lot. Bynum can shoot a bit but wont be asked to and Andy can hit an ugly 15 footer when left open....but hes left open. He isnt taking his man out of the paint with him. Even left alone hes not gonna punish you. You are more hurt giving their guards a lane than letting Andy have the 3 jumpers hes gonna take a night.

The 4s who shoot well enough that their teams will just whore you if you dont defend them.....not many of them.

PJ Brown could shoot. Kurt Thomas. Brandon Bass. Bass is a great shooter. And people still dont guard him terribly close.

Spacing is more of an issue with guards and swingmen. at the 4 there arent enough real shooters to force spacing no matter what.

Ibaka shoots his ass off the last few years. And guys just watch him do it. If you dont get the spacing anyway and just get 2 jumpers a night out of 90 possessions of offense...you might benefit more from totally shutting down the lane on defense as Dwight/Asik could do than by getting the 4 points a night you may by one of them being allowed an uncontested jumper every half.

It would work out fine. Just not vs all teams. But no lineup works vs all teams.

[Nastradamus]

Those guys have to guard Dwight too though.

[ILLsmak]

It's not such a horrible idea. Spacing is a legit concern but what about the benefit of a potential twin tower defense? They could make it extremely hard to score in the paint and they could also win the mismatches most of the time. Howard is mobile and would do a better job of covering stretch 4s than that perimeter PF is going to do of covering him in the paint. It's not guaranteed to work well of course but that's why it's called an experiment. If it turns out to be more negative than positive they can just stop.


Yea, this, how bad can spacing be? Everyone else could be legitwet, so we're talking about the PF sagging in toward the C. It'd be best to use Dwight as picker. They'd still beast on D and the boards.

Not every team has a wet PF. Dudes can also roll to the basket if someone helps off of them. And if PF goes off of dwight to help and Asik shoots a hook shot, that's rebs all day for Dwight.

Plus, they can just start it like that then change in the middle of the game. NO PF IN THE GAME WANTS TO SEE DWIGHT. Even if he doesn't catch the ball, he should focus on just banging his body into theirs.

-Smak

[SCdac]

It would be fine. 4/5 combos have been made of non shooters without incident for 60 years.

But how many of those non shooting PF/C combo's have won championships recently? ... That is the ultimate goal... Can you explain what you mean "without incident"? I've seen lots of crappy lineups that went down without incident, doesn't really prove that it works though (at a high level).

What happened 60 years ago, in particular, I think most would agree is not completely and utterly relevant to today's game and rules.

How about the last 10-20 years?

Heat - have Bosh, who utilizes his midrange often and drags the defender out
Mavs - Had Dirk, and Marion can shoot when/if he plays the 4.
Lakers - have Gasol and even Bynum has more range than Dwight
Celtics - had KG and Big baby can shoot
Heat - had Haslem who is a jump shooter for the most part
Spurs - Had Duncan and even Oberto/Nazr/Rasho could knock down a jumper
Pistons - had Sheed with lots of range
Shaq - had the most dominant center of the modern era, so probably didn't matter, but also had Horry, etc.
Bulls - had the GOAT so probably didn't matter
Rockets - Hakeem and Sampson had range

The Orlando Magic made it to the Finals with Rashard Lewis playing PF, somebody who shot upwards of 5 three's a game.

The Thunder is not a great example, because they have a center who's extremely offensively impotent since joining them (he's never gotten back to 2010 form). Put Asik in place of Perkins and I think opponents have to respect Ibaka more because they can't camp out closer to the basket on Perkins.

[SCdac]

It's not such a horrible idea. Spacing is a legit concern but what about the benefit of a potential twin tower defense?

The only thing I worry about with this is fouls. Dwight is really foul prone. and Asik is not that much better, but better. If you can get either one of them in foul trouble, or consistently drag them out of the paint, I question if the defense will be reminiscent of the some of the best twin tower defenses we've seen. Howard's pick and roll defense is ok, mostly redeemed by his shot blocking abilities and not necessarily his ability to stay with the offensive player. I guess it boils down to having a good defensive system, which we def didn't see in Houston last season or Los Angeles.

[IGOTGAME]

But how many of those non shooting PF/C combo's have won championships recently? ... That is the ultimate goal... Can you explain what you mean "without incident"? I've seen lots of crappy lineups that went down without incident, doesn't really prove that it works though (at a high level).

What happened 60 years ago, in particular, I think most would agree is not completely and utterly relevant to today's game and rules.

How about the last 10-20 years?

Heat - have Bosh, who utilizes his midrange often and drags the defender out
Mavs - Had Dirk, and Marion can shoot when/if he plays the 4.
Lakers - have Gasol and even Bynum has more range than Dwight
Celtics - had KG and Big baby can shoot
Heat - had Haslem who is a jump shooter for the most part
Spurs - Had Duncan and even Oberto/Nazr/Rasho could knock down a jumper
Pistons - had Sheed with lots of range
Shaq - had the most dominant center of the modern era, so probably didn't matter, but also had Horry, etc.
Bulls - had the GOAT so probably didn't matter
Rockets - Hakeem and Sampson had range

The Orlando Magic made it to the Finals with Rashard Lewis playing PF, somebody who shot upwards of 5 three's a game.

The Thunder is not a great example, because they have a center who's extremely offensively impotent since joining them (he's never gotten back to 2010 form). Put Asik in place of Perkins and I think opponents have to respect Ibaka more because they can't camp out closer to the basket on Perkins.

The best teams win...not because of a particular style per Se, but because they are the best team. Put Lebron, CP3 on Houston and they will win with the non shooting 4/5 because they would just be better.

Also, just because a team doesn't win a title doesn't mean the lineup can't work. Only one team wins a year.

[SCdac]

The best teams win...not because of a particular style per Se, but because they are the best team. Put Lebron, CP3 on Houston and they will win with the non shooting 4/5 because they would just be better.

Also, just because a team doesn't win a title doesn't mean the lineup can't work. Only one team wins a year.

Not every team wins. Obviously.

But I think it's fair to assume the Rockets are building a roster with the intentions of making the WCF or Finals.

An experiment, as McHale puts it when talking about Dwight-Asik, either works to some degree or it doesn't work to some degree. We will probably find out long before the playoffs.

Having said that, "working" in this scenario I believe would be making a strong playoff run or winning a title, "not working" I think would be losing early in the playoffs, not making the playoffs, or losing deep in the playoffs because of a glaring problem directly related to this topic (lack of front court chemistry and effectiveness).

As for Lebron and CP3, I agree turning the Rockets into a fairy tail / NBA2K lineup would put them over the top... but let's be realistic.

I disagree that you think there are not some commonalities among winning teams and generally winning formulas to use. It is a "rule of law"? obviously not, but still worth acknowledging.

[IGOTGAME]

Not every team wins. Obviously.

But I think it's fair to assume the Rockets are building a roster with the intentions of making the WCF or Finals.

An experiment, as McHale puts it when talking about Dwight-Asik, either works to some degree or it doesn't work to some degree. We will probably find out long before the playoffs.

Having said that, "working" in this scenario I believe would be making a strong playoff run or winning a title, "not working" I think would be losing early in the playoffs, not making the playoffs, or losing deep in the playoffs because of a glaring problem directly related to this topic (lack of front court chemistry and effectiveness).

As for Lebron and CP3, I agree turning the Rockets into a fairy tail / NBA2K lineup would put them over the top... but let's be realistic.

I disagree that you think there are not some commonalities among winning teams and generally winning formulas to use. It is a "rule of law"? obviously not, but still worth acknowledging.

People say the same thing about those suns teams. But if had Lebron on them they win a title. All the sudden small ball wins. It's about the specific teams in question.

Bynum and Pau won a title and there was zero floor spacing unless you count teams giving Pau jumpers the same way they give them to Josh Smith.

[KG215]

People say the same thing about those suns teams. But if had Lebron on them they win a title. All the sudden small ball wins. It's about the specific teams in question.

Bynum and Pau won a title and there was zero floor spacing unless you count teams giving Pau jumpers the same way they give them to Josh Smith.
Ummm...Pau is a very solid shooter for a PF from 15-17 feet out.

[SCdac]

People say the same thing about those suns teams. But if had Lebron on them they win a title. All the sudden small ball wins. It's about the specific teams in question.

Bynum and Pau won a title and there was zero floor spacing unless you count teams giving Pau jumpers the same way they give them to Josh Smith.

Pau has steadily increased his usage of his jumper, probably even too much, but no doubt his range helped the Lakers offense in ways Duncan's jumper has helped the Spurs. It's not that teams "give him jumpers", it's that teams have to respect it and cover him when he roams outside of the paint (but within the 3 point line). Just having the ability to face-up opponents and fake the jumper makes a difference. For a host of reasons a high-low game with a PF or C who can shoot works.

[IGOTGAME]

Pau has steadily increased his usage of his jumper, probably even too much, but no doubt his range helped the Lakers offense in ways Duncan's jumper has helped the Spurs. It's not that teams "give him jumpers", it's that teams have to respect it and cover him when he roams outside of the paint (but within the 3 point line). Just having the ability to face-up opponents and fake the jumper makes a difference. For a host of reasons a high-low game with a PF or C who can shoot works.
I understand the concept of spacing and agree with it. However, teams didnt respect Pau's jumper. It was conceded. Especially in the playoffs.

[SCdac]

I understand the concept of spacing and agree with it. However, teams didnt respect Pau's jumper. It was conceded. Especially in the playoffs.

Was just now watching games from LAL-BOS 2010 on youtube and the Celtics closed in on Gasol pretty hard every time he got the ball in midrange. They didn't back off him daring him to shoot, like we've seen defenders do to, say, Rajon Rondo at times. Disagree with you that teams didn't respect Gasol's jumper but agree to disagree. Often times they had Lamar Odom at PF too, pushing Gasol to center, again emphasizing range and spacing.

[ILLsmak]

The only thing I worry about with this is fouls. Dwight is really foul prone. and Asik is not that much better, but better. If you can get either one of them in foul trouble, or consistently drag them out of the paint, I question if the defense will be reminiscent of the some of the best twin tower defenses we've seen. Howard's pick and roll defense is ok, mostly redeemed by his shot blocking abilities and not necessarily his ability to stay with the offensive player. I guess it boils down to having a good defensive system, which we def didn't see in Houston last season or Los Angeles.

as (forgot who) would say it's a "mute" point.

The reason is because if they foul then they sit on the bench, so they aren't playing together. The reason they are both starting is because of ego issues not because this is the best line up.

-Smak

[Real Men Wear Green]

The only thing I worry about with this is fouls. Dwight is really foul prone. and Asik is not that much better, but better. If you can get either one of them in foul trouble, or consistently drag them out of the paint, I question if the defense will be reminiscent of the some of the best twin tower defenses we've seen. Howard's pick and roll defense is ok, mostly redeemed by his shot blocking abilities and not necessarily his ability to stay with the offensive player. I guess it boils down to having a good defensive system, which we def didn't see in Houston last season or Los Angeles.
They won't be Duncan an Robinson but the Rockets shouldn't be worried about their place in history, they should be trying to put out the line-up that gives them the best chance to win games.

[wakencdukest]

Imagine Dwight and Ask in the fourth quarter of a playoff game against the Spurs. Popovitch will be drooling over the amount of fouls he could lay on these dudes.

[Kblaze8855]

But how many of those non shooting PF/C combo's have won championships recently? ...


How many teams of any kind have won recently?

What kind of question is that?

One team wins a year. Those teams usually win more than once with that core. Spurs, heat, Lakers, Bulls, Rockets....

The titles are won by very small groups of teams.

Asking if something works...is not the same as asking who won a ring doing it lately.





That is the ultimate goal... Can you explain what you mean "without incident"? I've seen lots of crappy lineups that went down without incident, doesn't really prove that it works though

Seems it does.

Basketball is complicated in ways but not so much as people want to pretend in discussions like this.

Dwight playing the 4 will cause nothing of note to happen. Not like hes not done it before. It is a non issue. Its a non issue no matter who the 5 next to him is.

That doesnt mean im saying dont talk about it. I dont care what anyone is interested in. What im saying is....

Darius Miles played point for the cavs
Barkley was a small forward in Philly
Shane Battier is a power forward now
Anthony Mason was a pointguard on the Knicks for a while
Shaq and Dennis Rodman played next to eachother and they had the best stretch of that season

Positions dont matter. Especially at the 4-5. Spacing is just a hot term on places like this these days. All about the spacing.

This shit will not matter. Its like people saying Lebron cant defend bigmen. Only he does...so what does it matter what anyone thinks he can do?

Dwight plays the 4. Has plenty of times. Im talking...for years. N omatter how they decide to go...he and Asik will play together.

At those times....NOTHING of note will happen.

Even if they start together the Rockets have shooters to spare. Some of them the type to play the 4. I liked Motiejunas when I watched them. Parsons is 6'9'' and will at some point be at the 4 no matter what anyone thinks makes sense. basketball games are too fluid to worry about shit like this.

How their lineup looks for 4 minutes before it changes just isnt that big a deal. Especially when its not exactly breaking new ground. Two bigmen who dont shoot?

Not exactly putting Dwight at the 2 and just seeing how it goes.

Its standard basketball.

Nothing newsworthy.

[DMAVS41]

All depends on the style they play.

If they played some zone on defense and slowed it down and played half court offensively I could see it actually being pretty effective....especially in the playoffs.

But a stretch 4 next to Dwight is simply way more valuable than Asik. Rockets should definitely trade Asik and Lin imo.

[Kblaze8855]

Why Lin?

I never got that. He isnt elite. He isnt even above average. but hes young and has shown potential. Why not at least give him a shot with Dwight?

[CanYouDigIt]

Why Lin?

I never got that. He isnt elite. He isnt even above average. but hes young and has shown potential. Why not at least give him a shot with Dwight?
Rockets have a promising PG in PatBe and they should capitalize on him. Lin is a 6th Man on the Championship Team with a Star Player's contract.

[HomieWeMajor]

1. Spread the floor
2. Run double PnR every time down the floor
3. Get dunk or 3 point shot every time
4. ??????????????
5. Championship!

[Kblaze8855]

Lin isnt promising? Was beverly lighting up the Dleague more impressive than Lin giving the Lakers 40 or wetting pullup 3s on the road for the win?

Lin is still young. he has room to improve and played well last year. Isnt a star but hes hardly a lost cause either. His contract is...whatever. They are gonna pay the money either way. Just a matter of who gets it.

[steve]

Rockets have a promising PG in PatBe and they should capitalize on him. Lin is a 6th Man on the Championship Team with a Star Player's contract.

Lin is making about $8 mil a year, that's hardly star money. On top that, he has a better track record of performing than Beverely does (Lin is also younger, but they're close enough that it's splitting hairs).

Also, thread's like this kind of make me laugh because of the extremes people immediately jump to. If you based your understanding off this thread, you'd think the Rockets were claiming to not only play Howard and Asik together but make sure they both play 36 minutes a game. When in reality the Rockets are only trying to maximize an asset they have on the roster. It doesn't do them any good to have Asik just sit on the bench and he's also a good enough player that they'll find as many minutes for him to make him enticing enough to teams when players start to get injured during the season and they can get the best deal for him. This means that they're probably going to find about 20 minutes a game for Asik and that'll probably result in playing with Howard for about 6 minutes or so a game, which won't effect the offense all that negatively (if it all) while making the defense that much stronger and strong that they'll still be a plus duo on the floor together.

[SCdac]

How many teams of any kind have won recently?

What kind of question is that?

One team wins a year. Those teams usually win more than once with that core. Spurs, heat, Lakers, Bulls, Rockets....

The titles are won by very small groups of teams.

Asking if something works...is not the same as asking who won a ring doing it lately.


Seems it does.

Basketball is complicated in ways but not so much as people want to pretend in discussions like this.

Dwight playing the 4 will cause nothing of note to happen. Not like hes not done it before. It is a non issue. Its a non issue no matter who the 5 next to him is.

That doesnt mean im saying dont talk about it. I dont care what anyone is interested in. What im saying is....

Darius Miles played point for the cavs
Barkley was a small forward in Philly
Shane Battier is a power forward now
Anthony Mason was a pointguard on the Knicks for a while
Shaq and Dennis Rodman played next to eachother and they had the best stretch of that season

Positions dont matter. Especially at the 4-5. Spacing is just a hot term on places like this these days. All about the spacing.

This shit will not matter. Its like people saying Lebron cant defend bigmen. Only he does...so what does it matter what anyone thinks he can do?

Dwight plays the 4. Has plenty of times. Im talking...for years. N omatter how they decide to go...he and Asik will play together.

At those times....NOTHING of note will happen.

Even if they start together the Rockets have shooters to spare. Some of them the type to play the 4. I liked Motiejunas when I watched them. Parsons is 6'9'' and will at some point be at the 4 no matter what anyone thinks makes sense. basketball games are too fluid to worry about shit like this.

How their lineup looks for 4 minutes before it changes just isnt that big a deal. Especially when its not exactly breaking new ground. Two bigmen who dont shoot?

Not exactly putting Dwight at the 2 and just seeing how it goes.

Its standard basketball.

Nothing newsworthy.

If anybody is making this overly complicated, I think it's you. And I love how you know, with conviction and certainty, what will happen and what will be a non issue. If that's not aloof, I don't know what is. But that's your MO. So whatever.

It's a non issue, not a big deal, to you.... doesn't mean its the same way for the Rockets coaching staff or for the rest of the observers of the game and ISH posters.

I don't think it takes a basketball expert to notice that a Howard-Asik lineup, or formerly Howard-Gortat lineup in Orlando, might not be ideal in the here and now. Also, I think it's fair to say Dwight is more of a natural center than not.

I clearly said in response to somebody else what I believe would be considered "working" or "not working". If you consider just any lineup that gets just any results "working", that's fine, by that logic any lineup ever fielded "worked"...but I'm operating under the assumption that every team (particularly teams with multiple AS's like Houston) is playing the game ultimately win a title or come as close as possible to it.

So, let me rephrase for those who need it.... do you think a Howard-Asik front court to start games will work in terms of championship aspirations?

Will it have to be for only 4 minutes at a time, is that what you're implying? Will it mean that Parson will play the 4 and Howard pushed to center very soon into the first quarter? Does it mean that it, in actuality, won't work for an extended amount of time?

If you don't want to talk about without sounding sour or insulted, there's 20 other threads on the first page to be sour and insulted in man....

I said already in the OP that Dwight played PF before (early in his career, in seasons where they missed the playoffs). You saying it again is redundant. Merely doing it doesn't mean it's working at a high level (you conveniently deleted that part when quoting me). That notion should be easy to grasp.

Disagree with you that "positions don't matter" or that any PF is basically interchangeable with centers nowadays, or vica verca. As for spacing, I'm sure coaches are emphasizing spacing alot more than the average ISH poster, so I don't know what you're getting at if you think it's an ISH myth of some kind.

Scratching my head wondering if you're just playing devils advocate, actually think Dwight will fair no problem because of his skillset, think that an Dwight-Asik lineup is ideal, or anything in between.

Also I think you're confusing the "will it work for the Rockets?" question with "has a player ever played out of position in the history of the NBA"? Obviously players have played out of their position, and do what would seem like odd things, and it should be just as obvious that's not really what this thread's about.

[DMAVS41]

Why Lin?

I never got that. He isnt elite. He isnt even above average. but hes young and has shown potential. Why not at least give him a shot with Dwight?

For a number of reasons. But the main two being that they don't need him with Beverly and his contract is bad. If the Rockets trade both Lin and Asik...they will have room next summer to get another max type player in Houston. Which is exactly what they will need to win.

So you trade them both now to get something back and allow your team to move forward because neither Lin or Asik are part of the long term future of the Rockets.

This is a common mistake a lot of GM's make...unless the Rockets are confident they want to try to resign Asik in 2 years...they should trade him now. Simple as that. Same thing for Lin.

[ihatetimthomas]

Rockets have a promising PG in PatBe and they should capitalize on him. Lin is a 6th Man on the Championship Team with a Star Player's contract.

Beverley is really not a true pg. He had a great playoffs but he cannot run a team.

We all like to remember how bad Lin was in the playoffs but he was injured and wouldnt really even played any minutes in the final few games if it were th reg season. He was ineffective bc of it.

[Kblaze8855]

Listen...

Dwight is gonna play 30-35 minutes. The 13-18 minutes he isnt playing Asik will...plus...some of the time Dwight is in as well. We are talking about 5-10 minutes a night likely broken up in short bursts of several possessions many f which will end in Harden or Parsons taking a three in transition anyway.

If you wish to make it out to be some new idea or...unusual tactic...or something that is gonna make them a success or failure...fine.

I dont mindl Its at least real basketball discussion.

But ive been watching basketball too long to worry about what we call Dwight Howards position when hes gonna do the exact same thing either way.

The precious spacing will suffer, guards will be taking uncomfortable pullup jumpers on the other end, and 90% of the game will go on exactly as it would if it never happened.

Id Darko didnt fail to live up to expectations Dwight is probably a 4 his entire career with people making topics on if 6'9'' Dwight would have been as good as a center.

Im all for offseason time wasting though so feel free to continue.

[SCdac]

Lin is making about $8 mil a year, that's hardly star money. On top that, he has a better track record of performing than Beverely does (Lin is also younger, but they're close enough that it's splitting hairs).

Also, thread's like this kind of make me laugh because of the extremes people immediately jump to. If you based your understanding off this thread, you'd think the Rockets were claiming to not only play Howard and Asik together but make sure they both play 36 minutes a game. When in reality the Rockets are only trying to maximize an asset they have on the roster. It doesn't do them any good to have Asik just sit on the bench and he's also a good enough player that they'll find as many minutes for him to make him enticing enough to teams when players start to get injured during the season and they can get the best deal for him. This means that they're probably going to find about 20 minutes a game for Asik and that'll probably result in playing with Howard for about 6 minutes or so a game, which won't effect the offense all that negatively (if it all) while making the defense that much stronger and strong that they'll still be a plus duo on the floor together.

Obviously they're just trying to maximize assets and appease all their best players (Asik immediately wanted a trade, after all). So, doing something out of necessity is different than doing something because it's working or seemingly the right thing to do basketball-wise. Nobody is insinuating that Dwight and Asik will play every minute together or no minutes together, but rather what will probably be the best formula? and why? and will it have a positive/negative impact?

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

Asik for anyone who can make a jumpshot and play PF
don't they have that in Montiejunas? :confusedshrug:

How about Asik for a younger backup C (Camby is old) and/or 1st rnd pick (depending on team). I mean, Rockets roster is pretty well-covered in all areas. May as well just get a pick for the future.

[DMAVS41]

Obviously they're just trying to maximize assets and appease all their best players (Asik immediately wanted a trade, after all). So, doing something out of necessity is different than doing something because it's working or seemingly the right thing to do basketball-wise. Nobody is insinuating that Dwight and Asik will play every minute together or no minutes together, but rather what will probably be the best formula? and why? and will it have a positive/negative impact?

Asik is of high demand right now. I can't imagine Asik is in the Rockets long term plans...therefore they should trade Asik. It's that simple.

And the bonus is...if they move Asik and Line (very doable) they have enough to offer a near max or max (not sure) contract in the upcoming free agency period.

It not only allows the players on the team with a long term future to play more, but it opens up cap space for them to add what will likely be the missing piece to a title.

If I was the Rockets...I'd be on the phone offering Asik, Lin, and a a couple future picks for Aldridge....likely it would be a 3 team deal so somebody else could take Lin.

[The Choken One]

Asik is of high demand right now. I can't imagine Asik is in the Rockets long term plans...therefore they should trade Asik. It's that simple.

And the bonus is...if they move Asik and Line (very doable) they have enough to offer a near max or max (not sure) contract in the upcoming free agency period.

It not only allows the players on the team with a long term future to play more, but it opens up cap space for them to add what will likely be the missing piece to a title.

If I was the Rockets...I'd be on the phone offering Asik, Lin, and a a couple future picks for Aldridge....likely it would be a 3 team deal so somebody else could take Lin.
LA in Houston would be ridiculous. I'd jump on that band wagon...I'm a firm believer LA is the best PF in the league.

[kenny817]

Sorry, I don't have my hawkfan avi on.

Still, the trade looks decent for both teams.

Bulls get a good backup for Noah and they can run a Twin Towers lineup against the Heat.

Rockets get a good at-the-rim and mid range scorer and rebounder in Boozer.

You do know Asik came from the Bulls...right?

He left because he didn't want to be a backup anymore...he's too good for that

[niko]

Neither has a particularly good midrange game. If you play two players with no midrange game whose main benefit is standing under the basket, it's going to create problems. And it will create problems more so in the playoffs when teams will prepare for it. See Reggie Evans, awesome in the regular season, having to be benched for long periods of times in playoffs once Bulls schemed to leave him alone. Get to the playoffs, teams will play a zone and essentially leave one guy parked under the basket for whoever (Dwight or Asik) is there at the time.

I don't see it with two offensively limited guys.

[niko]

Asik is of high demand right now. I can't imagine Asik is in the Rockets long term plans...therefore they should trade Asik. It's that simple.

And the bonus is...if they move Asik and Line (very doable) they have enough to offer a near max or max (not sure) contract in the upcoming free agency period.

It not only allows the players on the team with a long term future to play more, but it opens up cap space for them to add what will likely be the missing piece to a title.

If I was the Rockets...I'd be on the phone offering Asik, Lin, and a a couple future picks for Aldridge....likely it would be a 3 team deal so somebody else could take Lin.
Asik, a horrible contract, and some shitty picks. Portland does that why?

[tpols]

It would be one thing if Dwight and asik were good passers/decision makers like bigs of the past.. Just dont see how the ball moves around in this set.


Bynum/pau/odom were all better passers.. not just goons.

[Heavincent]

It would be one thing if Dwight and asik were good passers/decision makers like bigs of the past.. Just dont see how the ball moves around in this set.


Bynum/pau/odom were all better passers.. not just goons.

Exactly. Asik and Howard are both raw, fundamentally challenged offensive players, so there's gonna be some problems on the offensive end with both of them on the floor.

[CanYouDigIt]

Asik for Bass and Crawford?

Celtics need a defensive big to replace the loss of KG, have Olynyk play PF and Asik play Center.

[rmt]

Lin is making about $8 mil a year, that's hardly star money.


$8m is too much for Lin - it's a business decision so I don't think he's going anywhere. Only HOU would pay him that because it has such a big following from China and so many Chinese in Houston.

They'll need a 3rd star which seems like Parsons. McHale is probably enamored of having 2 good bigs on his team - don't think it'll work - need to trade Asik for a PF with a jump shot.

[bdreason]

Listen...

Dwight is gonna play 30-35 minutes. The 13-18 minutes he isnt playing Asik will...plus...some of the time Dwight is in as well. We are talking about 5-10 minutes a night likely broken up in short bursts of several possessions many f which will end in Harden or Parsons taking a three in transition anyway.

If you wish to make it out to be some new idea or...unusual tactic...or something that is gonna make them a success or failure...fine.

I dont mindl Its at least real basketball discussion.

But ive been watching basketball too long to worry about what we call Dwight Howards position when hes gonna do the exact same thing either way.

The precious spacing will suffer, guards will be taking uncomfortable pullup jumpers on the other end, and 90% of the game will go on exactly as it would if it never happened.

Id Darko didnt fail to live up to expectations Dwight is probably a 4 his entire career with people making topics on if 6'9'' Dwight would have been as good as a center.

Im all for offseason time wasting though so feel free to continue.


Howard and Asik isn't going to work. Can't think of a single team in the league that starts two similar players next to each other, and certainly no successful teams.

The people comparing these two guys to Pau and Bynum are crazy. Neither of these guys is even close to Pau in regards to midrange shooting and passing.

I really, really hope the Rockets do try and play Howard and Asik together, because that just improves my Warriors playoff position. :oldlol:

[zass]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/339048/gregg-popovich-approved-o.gif

[CanYouDigIt]

Listen...

Dwight is gonna play 30-35 minutes. The 13-18 minutes he isnt playing Asik will...plus...some of the time Dwight is in as well. We are talking about 5-10 minutes a night likely broken up in short bursts of several possessions many f which will end in Harden or Parsons taking a three in transition anyway.

If you wish to make it out to be some new idea or...unusual tactic...or something that is gonna make them a success or failure...fine.

I dont mindl Its at least real basketball discussion.

But ive been watching basketball too long to worry about what we call Dwight Howards position when hes gonna do the exact same thing either way.

The precious spacing will suffer, guards will be taking uncomfortable pullup jumpers on the other end, and 90% of the game will go on exactly as it would if it never happened.

Id Darko didnt fail to live up to expectations Dwight is probably a 4 his entire career with people making topics on if 6'9'' Dwight would have been as good as a center.

Im all for offseason time wasting though so feel free to continue.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/mj-laughing.gif

SHUT THE **** UP KBLAZE

[rezznor]

How many teams of any kind have won recently?

What kind of question is that?

One team wins a year. Those teams usually win more than once with that core. Spurs, heat, Lakers, Bulls, Rockets....

The titles are won by very small groups of teams.

Asking if something works...is not the same as asking who won a ring doing it lately.






Seems it does.

Basketball is complicated in ways but not so much as people want to pretend in discussions like this.

Dwight playing the 4 will cause nothing of note to happen. Not like hes not done it before. It is a non issue. Its a non issue no matter who the 5 next to him is.

That doesnt mean im saying dont talk about it. I dont care what anyone is interested in. What im saying is....

Darius Miles played point for the cavs
Barkley was a small forward in Philly
Shane Battier is a power forward now
Anthony Mason was a pointguard on the Knicks for a while
Shaq and Dennis Rodman played next to eachother and they had the best stretch of that season

Positions dont matter. Especially at the 4-5. Spacing is just a hot term on places like this these days. All about the spacing.

This shit will not matter. Its like people saying Lebron cant defend bigmen. Only he does...so what does it matter what anyone thinks he can do?

Dwight plays the 4. Has plenty of times. Im talking...for years. N omatter how they decide to go...he and Asik will play together.

At those times....NOTHING of note will happen.

Even if they start together the Rockets have shooters to spare. Some of them the type to play the 4. I liked Motiejunas when I watched them. Parsons is 6'9'' and will at some point be at the 4 no matter what anyone thinks makes sense. basketball games are too fluid to worry about shit like this.

How their lineup looks for 4 minutes before it changes just isnt that big a deal. Especially when its not exactly breaking new ground. Two bigmen who dont shoot?

Not exactly putting Dwight at the 2 and just seeing how it goes.

Its standard basketball.

Nothing newsworthy.

i trust kblaze's knowledge of basketball over 99% of the posters here

[bmd]

If Asik and Greg Smith can play at the same time, I see no reason why Dwight and Asik can't...

[SCdac]

i trust kblaze's knowledge of basketball over 99% of the posters here

I trust that he's been watching basketball for a long time, and no doubt he drops some serious gems in terms of knowledge here and there (and his videos are exceptional and backed with good tunes)... but I don't trust anybody who's become really jaded and/or thinks they know everything by virtue of being a certain age or merely watching the game a long time. Often times it's the older folks who are in love with their own opinion. Kblaze clearly comes to the defense of Dwight often, while often criticizing Malone, so even he has strong biases and it's clear as day. Point is... I take everybody's comments with a grain of salt.

[Kblaze8855]

22 minutes into the season Asik and Dwight will play togther....nothing worth reporting will happen....they will be up 8 when it starts and 9 when one of them sits and we will all stop caring about this bullshit that has happened 700 times a season for 60 years.

Not all teams have a bigman who can shoot.

Basketball was not designed to need one. No coach worth a damn cant work around it. Asik is gonna be on the block fooling nobody into thinking hes gonna get the ball Dwight and Lin/harden will be in a pick and roll and basketball will be played as it has been for ages. And on the other end they will have one of the best interior defenses in the league.

For 3 minute bursts.....two-three times a week.

Just like when the Bulls won plenty of games with Tyrus Thomas and Ben Wallace on the floor together. And neither of them are 20ppg scorers and they didnt have a 27ppg swingman to play off and a high powered offense in place.

This "not working" is just them winning 51 games instead of 54 and not winning the titles they probably wont win anyway.

You dont have an NBA coaching staff attempting to put it in place because its a laughable concept that doesnt make any sense to try.

I suspect Kevin Mchale knows a thing or two about bigmen and how to keep them out of each others way for a few plays at a time.

Its hardly figuring out how to work with stone hands Mutombo and Tyrone Hill who would forget how to hit his baseline jumper for weeks at a time.

Its a few minutes shared on top of the 15 or so Asik plays with Dwight sitting.

It just isnt gonna be that major either way.

[Kblaze8855]

but I don't trust anybody who's become really jaded and/or thinks they know everything by virtue of being a certain age or merely watching the game a long time.

I dont think I know all. I think I know more than most on most basketball issues because I care to investigate them.

If I seem jaded it probably is because ive heard too many "That wont work!" claims about things that on reflection were dumb to question to begin with.

Ive heard "Can a scoring champion win the title? and "Can a team that takes a lot of threes really win in the playoffs" and on and on.

I was on ISH reading dumb arguments about how guys like Peja and Rashard
Lewis would be the best non bigs the league and AI and Kobe wouldnt be able to maintain elite status once zones were allowed.

Aaaaaaaaaaaand...the golden age of swingmen quickly followed and Kobe and AI had 30ppg seasons before they even removed handchecking.

Always someone asking "Will this work?

or questioning how some great player is gonna cope with some percieved hardship. And every time...its a non story in retrospect.

When I see laughing emoticons in posts acting like a team that is likely to be great wont work....because of two very good bigs on the floor together for 190 seconds at a time...

Cant help but think back to decades of bullshit arguments over nothing.

People making things out to be more of a problem than they are like a topic on Rose having too loose a handle to beat NBa players off the dribble. Or reading about Lebrons broken mechanics likely having him out of the league in three years when ISH was watching him in the summer leaagues.

Its always....every time...a lot of talk about nothing. Barring injury or the impossible to predict most teams that should be good...are good.

The Rockets will be good. How good? We will see. But they are a good team even if Asik cant shoot and Howard cant either and they end up getting time together.

The rest is just more "This will never work" talk that almost always ends up being a lot of talk about a non issue.

They will play together a bit, the Rockets will probably win like 53 games, or 58 if they gel quickly, they will get knocked out by the clippers and this topic may get bumped with a "So what happened kblaze?!?!?!" because the Clippers have a 4 with range in Blake...who just uses it to miss jumpers the other team loves to see him take....so it doesnt spread the floor too well anyway.

Then next year Nash will be rumored to join the Nets and I can hear the 2014 version of the "Kidd and Parker in one backcourt? Lol. Pop is an IDIOT" topics I heard when the spurs were after him and people wanted to know how basketball works with 2 natural points in at once. As if they had not seen it 400 times.

I dont know if im jaded. But ive gotten a little tired of "How can that work?" topics when ive seen power forwards at the point, 2 guards play the 4, an average team beat 67 win team playing 2 points and 3 swingmen, and the pistons own teams with a lineup of 7 seven footers getting out of the paint for a 60% shooting 6'4'' small forward to operate on the block.

The game just isnt that rigid. The idea that anything cant work is just laughable to me. At least anything as often seen as....2 non shooting bigs getting a few minutes together.

There is no rule requiring conformity. And while I always appreciate a real basketball topic...

I just feel like a little more non conforming is needed to be asking "Can this work". Not that thats the question you asked. But it seems many are of the opinion that it cant. and I just dont get it.

And the moment the rockets win by 22 with Dwight and asik together forcing bad shots over the top of them as the other team fails to make a run to cut it close....its gonna be obvious that it was odd to question in the first place.

[SCdac]

I knew some long winded posts pertaining to the subject were coming from kblaze. Perdictable. But not unwanted. Everyone appreciattes knowledge but nobody appreciates douchish attitude especially from a "moderator". Just a shame you have to fish for them, criticize, or call him out to take a topic seriously. I'm at Dennys now eating a french toast slam so ill respond in a bit.

[Kblaze8855]

Ive been using the same "douchish attitude" since 2001 and it doesnt seem many people care. Maybe the few who take it more serious than its intended.

And I was at a place called Midnight Diner in Charlotte after leaving a strip club on friday. Great french toast. Ive not been to Dennys very often.

I remember a whole "Dennys hates black people" thing from the 90s and I guess I never got into them. Not because they hated black people. I know a lot of people hate black people but I buy their products. It just wasnt the place to eat when I was forming my late night meal loyalties.

[Graviton]

Dennys is the nastiest. shittiest restaurant chain in USA. Everything is either undercooked, overcooked or plain disgusting. Their food tastes like it's 2 months past expiration date. My local Dennys is always empty and looks/smells like the most depressing place in the city. Only time I ate there I felt like throwing up and burning the place down. Just cook at home, ANYTHING is better than their garbage.

[SCdac]

Denny's blows. I go more for proximity and convenience. And there's not many places open 24/7. I know the chick who's worked right now's shift, because she's been working it for years, and out of hundreds of waitresses she's hands down the best I ever had. The french toast is usually fine (an edible corporate take on what french toast should be) but tonight is was not even cooked fully (isolated incident I'm sure). some new cook apparently, who was also the manager? is that common? whatever. They were cool about it. there's other options in a city as big (and fat) as san antonio, about a thousand taquerias, but yea cooking at home is the way to go.

[SCdac]

22 minutes into the season Asik and Dwight will play togther....nothing worth reporting will happen....they will be up 8 when it starts and 9 when one of them sits and we will all stop caring about this bullshit that has happened 700 times a season for 60 years.


So basically, because the game will go on, it doesn't matter. Any kind of fluctuation in game play is meaningless because it's going to happen anyways? I'm not going under the assumption they'll be up 8 because who really knows. The stacked Lakers of last season should be a caution to assuming a team will be amazing. And Kobe is arguably as good as Harden last season. And the West is still relatively tough.


Not all teams have a bigman who can shoot.

And not all teams have what it takes to be in the upper echelon of any given season, for all kinds of reasons some of which may or may not be the production and cohesiveness of their bigs. But I fail to see how some teams being incomplete, or rather, unconventional in today's game means it's automatically a nonissue merely because it's happened before. Nobody's denied nearly every unconventional lineup has happened before (recently, I think back to GS Warriors assortment of small lineups in the past decade)


Basketball was not designed to need one. No coach worth a damn cant work around it. Asik is gonna be on the block fooling nobody into thinking hes gonna get the ball Dwight and Lin/harden will be in a pick and roll and basketball will be played as it has been for ages. And on the other end they will have one of the best interior defenses in the league.

Seems like you're glossing over any potential negatives while only recognizing positives (best interior d). You see it as a non-issue, I see it as a potential barrier to becoming elite. If we're talking origins, basketball was designed a long time ago, well before either of us were born, and no matter how many similarities remain it was alot different in say 1906. The kind of front court it takes to "go all the way" (that's what we're talking about) may not be static and at the same time may not have changed totally... There's no guarantee or foregone conclusion about the upcoming season's results. Unless your statement is "basketball will be played no matter what", which is obviously true... but the question is "will the Rockets be a great team (ie. not playoff fodder) using a ______ lineup for a significant portion of the game?" ... Completely valid question, however much you don't think so.


Just like when the Bulls won plenty of games with Tyrus Thomas and Ben Wallace on the floor together. And neither of them are 20ppg scorers and they didnt have a 27ppg swingman to play off and a high powered offense in place.

The Bulls eventually acquired Boozer, which I think was smart however defensively flawed he is, and in Thomas' tenure the Bulls were never an elite team and were some times bad. They're not an example of something that worked at the highest level, for reasons that may be a direct correlation to Tyrus/Wallace or not. It's obviously not "all the front court's fault" but I still don't see anything terribly impressive about a never-quite-got-it-together Thomas and an older Ben Wallace pairing. Give me Sheed-Wallace all day. There's lineups with bigs who didn't have range that have won before, but most of the most recent top teams have had some semblance of diversity in their front court.


This "not working" is just them winning 51 games instead of 54 and not winning the titles they probably wont win anyway.

You dont have an NBA coaching staff attempting to put it in place because its a laughable concept that doesnt make any sense to try.

I suspect Kevin Mchale knows a thing or two about bigmen and how to keep them out of each others way for a few plays at a time.

I suspect he does too, but that's why he called it an experiment. We don't know. It's not certain. Not all 50-win teams are worth talking about but some are. Alot of that (who's worth talking about) is because the make up of the roster, the way they play, coaching, individual talent, and other stuff. Meaning, the Rocket's record and results is entirely dependent on what they do on the court. In saying that, how their best players (who've never played together) mesh is relevant. If you're saying that because the Rockets won't even win a championship anyways it doesn't matter, that's cool, but there's more to the topic than that imo.


Its hardly figuring out how to work with stone hands Mutombo and Tyrone Hill who would forget how to hit his baseline jumper for weeks at a time.

Its a few minutes shared on top of the 15 or so Asik plays with Dwight sitting.

It just isnt gonna be that major either way.

Well, we don't really know. That's the whole point of a open question, gathering opinions, etc.

Questions were asked, legitimately, if Howard and Gortat can coexist on offense, like in this article (below) from 09 talking about different lineups for the Magic, when Van Gundy was reluctant to play them together. McHale doesn't have that choice I'm sure. None the less, Gortat became vocal in not willing to stay a back up. And Asik seems to have done quite a bit of posturing himself. Howard and Asik are more or less going to be forced to play together (or Asik will be traded), which may turn out excellently or may not. Nobody knows.

http://www.orlandopinstripedpost.com/2009/6/9/903425/can-dwight-howard-and-marcin

[SCdac]

I dont think I know all. I think I know more than most on most basketball issues because I care to investigate them.

If I seem jaded it probably is because ive heard too many "That wont work!" claims about things that on reflection were dumb to question to begin with.

Ive heard "Can a scoring champion win the title? and "Can a team that takes a lot of threes really win in the playoffs" and on and on.

I was on ISH reading dumb arguments about how guys like Peja and Rashard
Lewis would be the best non bigs the league and AI and Kobe wouldnt be able to maintain elite status once zones were allowed.

Aaaaaaaaaaaand...the golden age of swingmen quickly followed and Kobe and AI had 30ppg seasons before they even removed handchecking.

Always someone asking "Will this work?

or questioning how some great player is gonna cope with some percieved hardship. And every time...its a non story in retrospect.

When I see laughing emoticons in posts acting like a team that is likely to be great wont work....because of two very good bigs on the floor together for 190 seconds at a time...

Cant help but think back to decades of bullshit arguments over nothing.

People making things out to be more of a problem than they are like a topic on Rose having too loose a handle to beat NBa players off the dribble. Or reading about Lebrons broken mechanics likely having him out of the league in three years when ISH was watching him in the summer leaagues.

Its always....every time...a lot of talk about nothing. Barring injury or the impossible to predict most teams that should be good...are good.

The Rockets will be good. How good? We will see. But they are a good team even if Asik cant shoot and Howard cant either and they end up getting time together.

The rest is just more "This will never work" talk that almost always ends up being a lot of talk about a non issue.

They will play together a bit, the Rockets will probably win like 53 games, or 58 if they gel quickly, they will get knocked out by the clippers and this topic may get bumped with a "So what happened kblaze?!?!?!" because the Clippers have a 4 with range in Blake...who just uses it to miss jumpers the other team loves to see him take....so it doesnt spread the floor too well anyway.

Then next year Nash will be rumored to join the Nets and I can hear the 2014 version of the "Kidd and Parker in one backcourt? Lol. Pop is an IDIOT" topics I heard when the spurs were after him and people wanted to know how basketball works with 2 natural points in at once. As if they had not seen it 400 times.

I dont know if im jaded. But ive gotten a little tired of "How can that work?" topics when ive seen power forwards at the point, 2 guards play the 4, an average team beat 67 win team playing 2 points and 3 swingmen, and the pistons own teams with a lineup of 7 seven footers getting out of the paint for a 60% shooting 6'4'' small forward to operate on the block.

you seem cool but going on about past slights and grievances as some relevance to a single thread asking simply "how do you think the "experiment" will turn out (McHale's quote)?" which is about as open ended and non conclusive as it gets .... is the very definition of jaded. Listen to yourself. If you're "tired of..." and "always hearing" this or that, and it's been happening for decades, that's on you, because it's not going to change. I don't really care to dissect this, I'd rather stick to basketball discussion, but at least give a topic a chance before your developed cynicism jumps out. As a jew, I'll tell you now, that's much easier said than done.

None the less, your prediction for the Rockets is 53-58 wins, which is fair and essentially what I have them at as well. 55 wins, second round exit (roughly) But I don't consider them contenders, much in ways like I didn't think the Phoenix Suns or Golden State Warriors of the mid-2000s were contenders. Or the mid 2000's Rockets for that matter. How much Howard can/is willing to improve his range makes all the difference imo because I think he's been, for somebody of his talent, too guardable the last 5 years. He's not a great playmaker, and some confidence at the FT line would help keep teams (literally) off his back. One can say he's been missing a superstar alongside him, but I don't think it's that... Let me ask you this, as their roster currently stands, what do you think it will take for the Rockets to win a championship and how much will the offensive cohesiveness and production matter if they do win it?

[chips93]

Howard and Asik isn't going to work. Can't think of a single team in the league that starts two similar players next to each other, and certainly no successful teams.

The people comparing these two guys to Pau and Bynum are crazy. Neither of these guys is even close to Pau in regards to midrange shooting and passing.

I really, really hope the Rockets do try and play Howard and Asik together, because that just improves my Warriors playoff position. :oldlol:

denver played farried and koufos together

valanciunas and amir johnson in toronto

both made it work by just having 3 very talented perimeter players.



id agree it will be an issue for the rockets this year though.

[DCL]

if you put dwight at the 4, then you need a 5 who can shoot pretty well to bring some spacing back. but if the 5 is on the outer perimeter and the 4 is in the paint, then the 5 is basically the power forward and the 4 is the center, so it doesn't really work because dwight would be playing the same way. dwight, with his skill sets, can only play one position in today's nba. you can't force to make him versatile. he can't even make a wide open 10 footer.

[Kblaze8855]

I think the main issue I have is decades of people acting like somewhat unusual lineups wont work before....they work fine. I just dont get how anyone is still perplexed especially at something as basic as 2 non shooting bigmen. Feels like after all we have seen result in great teams that something so normal as that shouldnt even be worth asking about.

Which again...doesnt mean I hate the question. I'll discuss anything about basketball. I just dont know how longtime fans have not seen too much to still think the game so rigid.

My countless "Well what about when...." things may not make a point you care for but there are just too many.

I remember people telling me I was an idiot to believe the suns could still win with a small forward at the 5 in Boris Diaw. Then they win like 54 games with no Amare and Diaw is handing out back to back triple doubles, guarding Yao, and playing point center.

I just wonder where the imagination went.

These are not hard things to picture working.

I just dont get how anyone is so sure it wont that they make "Lol....NEVER work!" posts with all the laughing emoticons.

It really just makes me wonder how short memories are.

We had a team make the finals with its best lineup being 2 pointguards(one of them the worst shooter at the point ive ever seen), a short 2 guard at the 3, and two people who cant catch a ball and average 7ppg aside from putbacks.

I remember the sonics and knicks running full court presses forcing centers to bring the ball up at times. I remember getting a laugh out of I think Vlade Divac hustling up the floor with the ball going coast to coast when someone on the Lakers got trapped in the backcourt. Vlade ran the floor like a guard stepped around a guy and made the layup.

Perhaps ive seen too much ball. A thousand situations flood my mind in these things and I just cant believe im the only one. This game has too many variations for me to think a team with contending talent wont contend because of a small wrinkle in normal lineups for 7-8 minutes.

I kinda wanna see this team play someone like the Bucks or new Pistons and let Dwight and asik play heavy minutes together.

Josh Smith is gonna miss 11 uncontested jumpers as the crowd chants "Noooooooo!", Jennings will go 5-26, and ill have a good laugh no matter who wins.


I want to see teams drive on the Rockets. Might have to see the floater make a comeback.

[Legends66NBA7]

Dennys is the nastiest. shittiest restaurant chain in USA. Everything is either undercooked, overcooked or plain disgusting. Their food tastes like it's 2 months past expiration date. My local Dennys is always empty and looks/smells like the most depressing place in the city. Only time I ate there I felt like throwing up and burning the place down. Just cook at home, ANYTHING is better than their garbage.

The Denny's I've been to in my area isn't bad. I love their appetizers, it gets pretty hectic around the night time, though, especially on the weekend and you go in at 2-3 in the morning.

[Mr Exlax]

We're only going to do it in the Preseason I would think. Working with Hakeem and McHale though he might develop a pretty reliable midrange jumper. I mean, he's got that ugly ass elbow one down pat.

[ZenMaster]

I dont think I know all. I think I know more than most on most basketball issues because I care to investigate them.

If I seem jaded it probably is because ive heard too many "That wont work!" claims about things that on reflection were dumb to question to begin with.

Ive heard "Can a scoring champion win the title? and "Can a team that takes a lot of threes really win in the playoffs" and on and on.

I was on ISH reading dumb arguments about how guys like Peja and Rashard
Lewis would be the best non bigs the league and AI and Kobe wouldnt be able to maintain elite status once zones were allowed.

Aaaaaaaaaaaand...the golden age of swingmen quickly followed and Kobe and AI had 30ppg seasons before they even removed handchecking.

Always someone asking "Will this work?

or questioning how some great player is gonna cope with some percieved hardship. And every time...its a non story in retrospect.

When I see laughing emoticons in posts acting like a team that is likely to be great wont work....because of two very good bigs on the floor together for 190 seconds at a time...

Cant help but think back to decades of bullshit arguments over nothing.

People making things out to be more of a problem than they are like a topic on Rose having too loose a handle to beat NBa players off the dribble. Or reading about Lebrons broken mechanics likely having him out of the league in three years when ISH was watching him in the summer leaagues.

Its always....every time...a lot of talk about nothing. Barring injury or the impossible to predict most teams that should be good...are good.

The Rockets will be good. How good? We will see. But they are a good team even if Asik cant shoot and Howard cant either and they end up getting time together.

The rest is just more "This will never work" talk that almost always ends up being a lot of talk about a non issue.

They will play together a bit, the Rockets will probably win like 53 games, or 58 if they gel quickly, they will get knocked out by the clippers and this topic may get bumped with a "So what happened kblaze?!?!?!" because the Clippers have a 4 with range in Blake...who just uses it to miss jumpers the other team loves to see him take....so it doesnt spread the floor too well anyway.

Then next year Nash will be rumored to join the Nets and I can hear the 2014 version of the "Kidd and Parker in one backcourt? Lol. Pop is an IDIOT" topics I heard when the spurs were after him and people wanted to know how basketball works with 2 natural points in at once. As if they had not seen it 400 times.

I dont know if im jaded. But ive gotten a little tired of "How can that work?" topics when ive seen power forwards at the point, 2 guards play the 4, an average team beat 67 win team playing 2 points and 3 swingmen, and the pistons own teams with a lineup of 7 seven footers getting out of the paint for a 60% shooting 6'4'' small forward to operate on the block.

The game just isnt that rigid. The idea that anything cant work is just laughable to me. At least anything as often seen as....2 non shooting bigs getting a few minutes together.

There is no rule requiring conformity. And while I always appreciate a real basketball topic...

I just feel like a little more non conforming is needed to be asking "Can this work". Not that thats the question you asked. But it seems many are of the opinion that it cant. and I just dont get it.

And the moment the rockets win by 22 with Dwight and asik together forcing bad shots over the top of them as the other team fails to make a run to cut it close....its gonna be obvious that it was odd to question in the first place.

I might be mistaken but I believe I've heard you use that one yourself in an old discussion about TS% and missing mid-range game of modern NBA.

[Kblaze8855]

So. Think its fairly obvious that the Rockets can use them together just fine. Even without the all important "spacing".

And I say that knowing they are about to play the Clippers and be pick/popped to death by Paul and Blake but I don't care.

Ive watched some of every game they have played. That two centers lineup shuts down the lane and they have been fine on offense too.

Only question is will they win in the playoffs....which...was the only question no matter what lineup they put out there. They were destined to be good to great. How anyone thought Asik/Dwight together could ruin that is beyond me.

And again...I am prepared for laughing emoticons quoting this post when Blake is left open for 11 midrange jumpers.

But hes gonna miss 7 anyway.

[Kblaze8855]

Little article on it:




The issue for the Rockets (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/teams/houston-rockets) was how coach Kevin McHale would use Howard with Omer Asik (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/players/51517/omer-asik), the big man Houston signed to $25 million in the summer of 2012. Neither player stretches the floor on offense, nor is either comfortable guarding smaller, mobile fours on the perimeter. But so far, the two have played together and it's working.
There was no question that the combination would dominate the glass and in three games that's exactly what has happened. In 34 minutes on the floor together, the Howard-Asik combo is rebounding at a 57.4 percent rate, per NBA.com (http://stats.nba.com/teamLineups.html?TeamID=1610612745&GroupQuantity=2&PerMode=Totals&MeasureType=Advanced) stats.

all your rebound are belong to us
— Daryl Morey (@dmorey) October 31, 2013 (https://twitter.com/dmorey/statuses/395774247429099520) Well, not all of them but yes, a lot of rebounds belong to the Rockets. Howard leads the way, pulling in 17 per game and Asik is collecting 11.3. Houston, as a team, is second in the NBA in rebounding at 48.3 per contest.
The pairing's defense is a bit of a wildcard as neither player is comfortable guarding smaller, mobile forwards on the perimeter, but so far that hasn't been too much of a problem. Through three games, the Howard-Asik combo has a defensive rating of 87.9, per NBA.com (http://stats.nba.com/teamLineups.html?TeamID=1610612745&GroupQuantity=2&PerMode=Totals&MeasureType=Advanced) stats.
Rockets small forward Chandler Parsons (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/players/132514/chandler-parsons) said after Saturday night's 104-93 win against the Jazz (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/teams/utah-jazz) that Houston has a chance to be great defensively with Howard and Asik. (h/t Fox Sports Southwest (http://www.foxsportssouthwest.com/nba/houston-rockets/story/Parsons-Harden-lead-Rockets-over-Jazz?blockID=957563&feedID=3742)):

"We have the potential to be a very good defensive team. With those two big guys behind us, it makes us want to be more aggressive and we were out in passing lanes, disrupting their offense and making them uncomfortable," Parsons said
The offense has stagnated a bit with the two on the floor as teams are able to collapse the floor and suck away spacing. That's because neither Howard nor Asik has the ability to stretch the floor with an outside shot.
Houston may also run into the same problem that the Clippers (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/teams/los-angeles-clippers) face wherein its two big guys can't finish games because of poor free throw shooting. Neither player is even close to an average shooter from the charity stripe and it'd be tough for McHale to leave them in late to close out games.
But the combination is working on defense and is murdering the glass. Houston is cooking on all cylinders early as it has won its first three games of the season. It's a weird thing to see two centers listed in the starting lineup but if it keeps working, then McHale will keep using it. We better get used to it.




They are rebounding all over....but Dwight is straight up robbing teammates in position. Yells out "I got it!" 5 times a night when someone else had position first. And they just bow down to him....

[RoseCity07]

I remember Aldridge's eyes would light up when Howard was guarding him. I think a lot of good PF's like to use their quickness on Howard. It's a good move for the Rockets because Howard is probably faster than Asik, and thus more able to keep up with elite PFs. I bet the Rockets will play Howard at center against a team with a weak PF and a more skilled big man.

[LosBulls]

Denny's blows. I go more for proximity and convenience. And there's not many places open 24/7. I know the chick who's worked right now's shift, because she's been working it for years, and out of hundreds of waitresses she's hands down the best I ever had. The french toast is usually fine (an edible corporate take on what french toast should be) but tonight is was not even cooked fully (isolated incident I'm sure). some new cook apparently, who was also the manager? is that common? whatever. They were cool about it. there's other options in a city as big (and fat) as san antonio, about a thousand taquerias, but yea cooking at home is the way to go.
Different Denny's variate. Some are horrible but the one by where I live at or well most of the Denny's in the Chicago area are very good.

You can tell apart the good ones from the bad ones by just looking at the amount of people that go there.

[SCdac]

Did this experiment fail already? :oldlol:

[Kblaze8855]

They say they arent trading anyone so we will have to see how the next several months go.

[SCdac]

They say they arent trading anyone so we will have to see how the next several months go.

I'd like to see it work.... or get Asik on the Spurs!

Dwight should be improving his range and skills, regardless of his team.

I don't understand why he's not. (other than maybe not being capable)

A Howard/Asik pairing is questionable particularly if there's no chemistry.

Still plenty of season left, though.