FoxSports Top 10 Players All Time Rankings

[branslowski]

1. Jordan
2. Magic (?)
3. Russel
4. Kareem
5.Bird
6. Wilt
7. Oscar (lol)
8. Kobe (should be 7, but majority of high IQ earth has him between the 7-9 range)
9. Shaq
10. Duncan

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/lists/Top-10-players-in-NBA-history#photo-title=Michael+Jordan+%25281984-2003%2529&photo=30219324

Those 10 are mostly the players every has in there 10...I think KAJ should of been at the 2 spot, I also think Oscar should of been 10 or 11....List is from 12', but it basically gives you what the general perception is of the top 10....

[kentatm]

Kobe is not top 10 and no way in hell is he above Duncan.

[Kblaze8855]

Im assuming people are about to use this as evidence that someone ranks Kobe over Duncan and disregard that it has Oscar and Bird over Kobe.

[SuperPippen]

Magic should certainly not be #2.

Kobe is fine at #7, but I wouldn't put him above Duncan or Shaq.

Oscar isn't top 10 material. I definitely respect the old timer and his skils - IMO, he'd be a superior version of Jason Kidd if he played today - but he's just not a top 10 player anymore (if that even matter, because he's still a legend). I'd sooner put West in the top 10.

[Scholar]

I don't hate that list, but I think they got it a bit out of order. I'd have preferred seeing Kareem #2 overall.

[branslowski]

Im assuming people are about to use this as evidence that someone ranks Kobe over Duncan and disregard that it has Oscar and Bird over Kobe.

Actually no...Picking either Duncan or Kobe you can't go wrong...Some will pull the Bigman argument, some will say Kobe consistantly dominated longer than Duncan, has been in top 3 player in the NBA argument more consistantly than Duncan, and Kobe was voted top player of his era by multiple outlets.

Also, this is more to show ppl the general 10. Players who are in Top 10....You don't have to accept the order, but yet accept the players.

[Legends66NBA7]

You don't have to accept the order, but yet accept the players.

Says who ? Why shouldn't Hakeem Olajuwon be in there ? What about Moses Malone ? LeBron James also has more than a case, why isn't he there ?

Arbitrary lists doesn't have the same exact players over and over again. Is there a consistent group (7-8 players) that shows up ? Sure, but not the exact same players shown in that list. I rarely ever see Oscar Top 10.

[christian1923]

I like magic at 2. Nba finals MVP in his rookie season :bowdown:

[Electric Slide]

LMAO at Kobe at #8. Guy should be lucky to be in the top 15.

[branslowski]

LMAO at Kobe at #8. Guy should be lucky to be in the top 15.

:facepalm

[SamuraiSWISH]

I don't feel comfortable with Russell's rankings, ever. I don't think he should be ranked as high as he often is ... but, whatever. FoxSports is dumb, how is LeBron not in the top ten already? He already has as many rings as Hakeem, and Wilt. And more than Oscar Robertson? While on an individual level being as impressive, if not more.

[Electric Slide]

:facepalm
He isn't better than

Jordan
Kareem
Russell
Lebron
Bird
Magic
Wilt
Duncan
KG
Shaq
Hakeem
Dirk
Dr. J
Oscar
West

You could argue the last 3 but those other 12 are clearly better than him. Then you got guys like Karl Malone, David Robinson, and Moses Malone who were arguably better.

[SilkkTheShocker]

LeBron is a better player than Kobe has ever been.

[rhythmic]

1) Jordan - undisputed
2) Kareem - winner in all stages of his career (HS, College & NBA)
3) Magic - best leader and floor general ever, amazing resume in a short career
4) Russell - greater winner of all-time
5) Wilt - most impressive statistical output in league history, freak of nature
6) Bird - similar career to Magic's, unfortunately back problems cut his career short.
7) Kobe - longevity, personal accolodes, 5 titles... a very complete resume.
8) Shaquille - most dominant peak of any player, ever. Very well-rounded resume.
9) Duncan - great leader & teammate, has achieved a lot of success & has been very consistent as a player. For a big man, has had a very long career.
10) LeBron - will easily break the top 5 barrier, if he continues at his pace. Only 28, has achieved so much. If not for 2007/2011 stumbles, he could be challenging Jordan for the #1 spot.

That's how I honestly see the top 10 list...

[rhythmic]

I don't feel comfortable with Russell's rankings, ever. I don't think he should be ranked as high as he often is ... but, whatever. FoxSports is dumb, how is LeBron not in the top ten already? He already has as many rings as Hakeem, and Wilt. And more than Oscar Robertson? While on an individual level being as impressive, if not more.

11 championships, 7-8 Finals MVP, 5 MVPs, probably 6-7 DPOTY awards.
A student of the game, brilliant individual at understanding the game. Plays his role to perfection as a leader; best anchor defensively of all-time.

How on earth do you not agree with his place in history?

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

kobe will always be number 1 in my heart.

[fpliii]

This probably reflects common perception (actually Most people I've asked still put Dr. J above Duncan too, I guess since Tim is more low key and only on these boards are ABA seasons ignored; not that I have a problem with it, just pointing this out). I'm not big on these lists, but it's interesting that Odcar had been the one whose legacy has taken the biggest hit, and Hakeem's has jumped the most among fans here and on other sites. Not that I have a problem with it, just an observation.

Truth be told there are a lot of great players so you're short changing at least 2-3 by making a top 10 list.

[Electric Slide]

Russell doesn't have any Finals MVP because there wasn't one then. He would have gotten more than 6 though. It was a different era and his defense had huge impact.

if Russell could win 5 MVPs, no question he would have won more Finals MVPs since he was an even better playoff performer.

[SHAQisGOAT]

1. Jordan
2. Magic (?)
3. Russel
4. Kareem
5.Bird
6. Wilt
7. Oscar (lol)
8. Kobe (should be 7, but majority of high IQ earth has him between the 7-9 range)
9. Shaq
10. Duncan


Magic at 2nd (also 3 spots over Bird when imho 1 is the only thing conceivable)
Kareem at 4th
Oscar at 7th
Kobe at 8th
Shaq at 9th
No Hakeem

:roll: :roll: What a sh!tty list

[SamuraiSWISH]

11 championships, 7-8 Finals MVP, 5 MVPs, probably 6-7 DPOTY awards.
A student of the game, brilliant individual at understanding the game. Plays his role to perfection as a leader; best anchor defensively of all-time.

How on earth do you not agree with his place in history?
I understand why others value him. I understand his impact on the history of the game as well.

Well there was no Finals MVPs in his era. And if there was, he didn't deserve 7 or 8 of those Finals MVPs. From what I've read, and seen there was a vast majority of those Finals where he was either the 4th or even 5th most productive player on offense. Obviously he had the defense on lock, but being great on one side of the ball exclusively isn't enough justification for me. People want to rank him that high because of the 11 rings. It's just his insanely stacked team and the fact that his HOF teammates rarely get mentioned, or that they played in an era with 8 teams. Where is the mention of the impact of Cousy? I just find ranking Russell difficult. Plus, all I've done is read about him. Haven't gotten to see a whole lot of him.

I almost feel there should be separate lists. The top ten of the pre modern era game (pre 180) when the game was in it's infancy and developmental stages. That way players like Mikan and others don't get the shaft. Then have a separate top ten for the modern game. Because the game has changed a lot up until around the mid / late 70's. Since then it's been pretty consistent as the recognizable finalized sport we know it as today.

[longtime lurker]

1. Jordan
2. Magic (?)
3. Russel
4. Kareem
5.Bird
6. Wilt
7. Oscar (lol)
8. Kobe (should be 7, but majority of high IQ earth has him between the 7-9 range)
9. Shaq
10. Duncan

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/lists/Top-10-players-in-NBA-history#photo-title=Michael+Jordan+%25281984-2003%2529&photo=30219324

Those 10 are mostly the players every has in there 10...I think KAJ should of been at the 2 spot, I also think Oscar should of been 10 or 11....List is from 12', but it basically gives you what the general perception is of the top 10....

Great post. It's literally only on message boards have I seen Kobe ranked out of the top 10. Do you have ESPN's rankings of the top 10 players of all time? I think they had him at 7.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Amazing how overrated Kobe is. Nothing more than a scoring sideshow without the best frontcourt in the league. Also a sidekick and rapist. Lost a Finals series playing with 3 hall of fame teammates :oldlol:

[Electric Slide]

Great post. It's literally only on message boards have I seen Kobe ranked out of the top 10. Do you have ESPN's rankings of the top 10 players of all time? I think they had him at 7.
further proof he is overrated then.

[KG215]

Because he didn't deserve 7 or 8 of those Finals MVPs. There was a vast majority of those Finals where he was either the 4th or even 5th most productive player on offense. Obviously he had the defense on lock, but being great on one side of the ball exclusively isn't enough justification for me. People want to rank him that high because of the 11 rings. It's just his insanely stacked team and the fact that his HOF teammates rarely get mentioned, or that they played in an era with 8 teams. Where is the mention of the impact of Cousy? I just find ranking Russell difficult. Plus, all I've done is read about him. Haven't gotten to see a whole lot of him.

I wish I knew a little more about those Celtic teams and the era in general, but I get the feeling you're underrating and don't truly appreciate the things Russell brought to the table. From what I've read and learned over the last few years (granted, a lot of it has been from posters here providing quotes from players and coaches at the time, quotes from books, newspaper articles, etc.) his impact offensively goes beyond his pedestrian looking scoring numbers, and obviously he had an enormous defensive impact. I could be wrong, but after Cousy retired, the Celtics even ran a lot of their offense through Russell at the high post, and he was averaging 5-6 APG.

Finals MVP only existed one season of Russell's career, 1969, and that year it went to Jerry West on the losing team. However, in his other 10 championship seasons, if the award existed, I can't imagine him not reasonably deserving to win 7-8 Finals MVP's.

[fpliii]

I understand why others value him. I understand his impact on the history of the game as well.

Well there was no Finals MVPs in his era. And if there was, he didn't deserve 7 or 8 of those Finals MVPs. From what I've read, and seen there was a vast majority of those Finals where he was either the 4th or even 5th most productive player on offense. Obviously he had the defense on lock, but being great on one side of the ball exclusively isn't enough justification for me. People want to rank him that high because of the 11 rings. It's just his insanely stacked team and the fact that his HOF teammates rarely get mentioned, or that they played in an era with 8 teams. Where is the mention of the impact of Cousy? I just find ranking Russell difficult. Plus, all I've done is read about him. Haven't gotten to see a whole lot of him.

I almost feel there should be separate lists. The top ten of the pre modern era game (pre 180) when the game was in it's infancy and developmental stages. That way players like Mikan and others don't get the shaft. Then have a separate top ten for the modern game. Because the game has changed a lot up until around the mid / late 70's. Since then it's been pretty consistent as the recognizable finalized sport we know it as today.

• He likely doesn't win in 57, 64, 68, and we know he didn't in 69. The rest are definitely his (there have been many posts on this forum going into that).

• The teams had mediocre-to-poor offensive efficiencies, they won with their defenses. Cousy, Sharman and a great offensive center in Ed Macauley did nothing of note before Russ joined the team.

• 1980 is kinda arbitrary, since the 3 wasn't used very often. Why not 76 (post-merger) if you want to exclude the guys from 54-55 through 73-74 (namely Russell, Wilt, Oscar, West)? It's your rankings, so you can do what you want.

EDIT: Why does one have to be great offensively? No guards ever have enough of an impact on the other end to put them in the class of top defensive centers, and even Pippen comes up short (though he's the closest non-big). That's not even taking into account rebounding, which you can't take for granted (or compare to playmaking/ball handling, which are why point guards and wings have an advantage on offense).

[longtime lurker]

further proof he is overrated then.

:sleeping you want to log in with your other account and try again?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Lebron and/or Hakeem should be in most top 10 lists.

[branslowski]

Amazing how overrated Kobe is. Nothing more than a scoring sideshow without the best frontcourt in the league. Also a sidekick and rapist. Lost a Finals series playing with 3 hall of fame teammates :oldlol:

Best frontcourt:

Bynum 6ppg 3reb

Artest 11ppg 4reb 39%fg

Odom 9ppg 9reb

:roll:


Only Gasol was solid, put up David West numbers.

[Fresh Kid]

LMAO at Kobe at #8. Guy should be lucky to be in the top 15.
:biggums:

[SamuraiSWISH]

[QUOTE=fpliii]

[Fudge]

Loooool hilarious seeing Silkk log into his Electric Slide account right after he says some stupid shit. :roll:

[Vienceslav]

Are we stupid for ignoring Oscar all the time or is the world stupid for putting him in their top 10, because most of these list outside of this site seem to feature the Big O.

[KG215]

Only Gasol was solid, put up David West numbers.
No, Gasol put up 18-11-3-2 on 58% shooting with a 21.9 PER and .221 WS/48 in 2009; and 20-11-4-2 on 54% FG and a 24.0 PER and .224 WS/48 in 2010.

It's a slap in the face to belittle him by saying he "put up David West numbers" and diminish his impact to being just "solid".

[Legends66NBA7]

Pre-Modern Era (1947-1979) Top 10

Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Elgin Baylor
George Mikan
Bob Pettit
Bob Cousy

Modern Era (1980-present) Top 10

Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
Hakeem Olajuwon
LeBron James
Kobe Bryant
Moses Malone
Kevin Garnett


^No order in each, but does that sound about right ?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Are we stupid for ignoring Oscar all the time or is the world stupid for putting him in their top 10, because most of these list outside of this site seem to feature the Big O.
Why would he be in there? LeBron is the Big O translated into modern basketball, excepts he actually wins. Un-like Oscar. So, the Big O gets the Big Boot from the top ten of all-time. People get dizzy eyed with his season where he averaged a triple double. No one does the same for the likes of Nate Archibald when he amazingly led the league in scoring and assists in the same year.

[Fresh Kid]

Modern Era (1980-present) Top 10

Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
Hakeem Olajuwon
LeBron James
Kobe Bryant
Moses Malone
Kevin Garnett


^No order in each, but does that sound about right ?
No Isiah Thomas? :biggums:

[longtime lurker]

Are we stupid for ignoring Oscar all the time or is the world stupid for putting him in their top 10, because most of these list outside of this site seem to feature the Big O.

People on message boards have convinced themselves that Hakeem is certified top 10. Other lists from reputable sources have him and Oscar alternating in and out of the top ten. It's certainly debatable for Oscar to be top 10.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Pre-Modern Era (1947-1979) Top 10

Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Elgin Baylor
George Mikan
Bob Pettit
Bob Cousy

Modern Era (1980-present) Top 10

Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
Hakeem Olajuwon
LeBron James
Kobe Bryant
Moses Malone
Kevin Garnett


^No order in each, but does that sound about right ?
I like that much better.

Hondo not mentioned in pre-merger?

[NuggetsFan]

I don't get the Kobe hate these days. I never liked him, still not a fan really but he's put in his dues. Overrated by people who think he's top 5 but he's cemented himself in the top 10 IMO. He's just been doing it for so long. He's played with great players, as did everybody else on that list. 7-9 is perfect for him. Don't think I'll ever be able to put him above Shaq because I watched them both live on the same team, but I guess if you valued longevity really highly that would be your case.

MJ
Kareem
Russell
Wilt
Bird
Magic
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
Hakeem/LeBron

My non well thought out top 10. Probably different every month and besides MJ and Kareem at 1/2, 3-6 & 7-9 are pretty interchangeable.

[fpliii]

Pre and Post Merger top ten lists. It has more to do with the game being in it's developmental stages, compared to it's finalized stage. Otherwise, there is going to be people that get left out.

Again, it's your list so it's fine if you want to do that. I don't really care about ranking players, but I wouldn't separate post-shotclock era if I did one.

[Legends66NBA7]

I like that much better.

Hondo not mentioned in pre-merger?

I did a top of my head list, but yeah Hondo is a great pick.

I think I would put him over Cousy then, despite Cousy's MVP. Hondo is a better two way player, actually would have 2 Finals MVP's, the year in 68 was considered the best player in the Finals.


No Isiah Thomas?:biggums:

Who would you have him over ?

[fpliii]

Pre-Modern Era (1947-1979) Top 10

Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Elgin Baylor
George Mikan
Bob Pettit
Bob Cousy

Modern Era (1980-present) Top 10

Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
Hakeem Olajuwon
LeBron James
Kobe Bryant
Moses Malone
Kevin Garnett


^No order in each, but does that sound about right ?

No Dr. J or Havlicek? I think Mikan is a tough sell in the first list since he was a pre-shotclock guy. The NBA actually did a list in 1980:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_35th_Anniversary_Team

Mikan is there as a pioneer of the game (and even though he wasn't able to deal with a 24 second clock he was dominant in his day), but the other 10 would be the correct list (in whatever order you want) probably.

[longtime lurker]

No, Gasol put up 18-11-3-2 on 58% shooting with a 21.9 PER and .221 WS/48 in 2009; and 20-11-4-2 on 54% FG and a 24.0 PER and .224 WS/48 in 2010.

It's a slap in the face to belittle him by saying he "put up David West numbers" and diminish his impact to being just "solid".

Who's more solid? 27, 6 and 5 or 20, 11 and 4?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe is not top 10 and no way in hell is he above Duncan.
:wtf:

[Legends66NBA7]

No Dr. J or Havlicek? I think Mikan is a tough sell in the first list since he was a pre-shotclock guy. The NBA actually did a list in 1980:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_35th_Anniversary_Team

Mikan is there as a pioneer of the game (and even though he wasn't able to deal with a 24 second clock he was dominant in his day), but the other 10 would be the correct list (in whatever order you want) probably.

Dr J is pretty tough and I guess a flaw of these lists. I'm not including his ABA career and going just by NBA standards here, so he started in 1976. I can't really put him in the pre-merger for 3 seasons. If I did include ABA, then maybe there's a clear case.

I already explained Hondo above and have changed my mind in putting him over Cousy.

[Fresh Kid]

I did a top of my head list, but yeah Hondo is a great pick.

I think I would put him over Cousy then, despite Cousy's MVP. Hondo is a better two way player, actually would have 2 Finals MVP's, the year in 68 was considered the best player in the Finals.



Who would you have him over ?
either kg or moses malone

[DMAVS41]

No, Gasol put up 18-11-3-2 on 58% shooting with a 21.9 PER and .221 WS/48 in 2009; and 20-11-4-2 on 54% FG and a 24.0 PER and .224 WS/48 in 2010.

It's a slap in the face to belittle him by saying he "put up David West numbers" and diminish his impact to being just "solid".

this. don't pay attention to him. he hears someone talk about the Lakers dominant front line...and then he somehow removes Gasol from the equation.

makes no sense. and of course he is wrong about some numbers...odom averaged 10/9 and 12/9 in the playoffs during the title runs.

it doesn't even matter what they did honestly. Kobe had the best or one of the best supporting casts in the league at a time in which melo and howard was his main competition. all the truly great players like lebron, wade, dirk, and kg (09 injury) were off the playing field for him.

the Lakers beat one really quality team in their 2 year run...the 10 Celtics.

[fpliii]

Dr J is pretty tough and I guess a flaw of these lists. I'm not including his ABA career and going just by NBA standards here, so he started in 1976. I can't really put him in the pre-merger for 3 seasons. If I did include ABA, then maybe there's a clear case.

I already explained Hondo above and have changed my mind in putting him over Cousy.

Ah okay. I disagree with the ABA thing (unless you discredit the NBA at lead in the final four pre-merger seasons) but to each his own.

BTW you can put both Cousy and Hondo in there. You only have nine guys on your first list.

The only guy on the second list I'm not sure about is Moses (since his career is hurt playing some of his best years pre-1980, and I'm generally not as high on him). Maybe I'd go Dirk or Barkley instead (I'm actually very high on Stockton and Robinson too, but that's just me). Again everybody is entitled to his own list.

[rhythmic]

this. don't pay attention to him. he hears someone talk about the Lakers dominant front line...and then he somehow removes Gasol from the equation.

makes no sense. and of course he is wrong about some numbers...odom averaged 10/9 and 12/9 in the playoffs during the title runs.

it doesn't even matter what they did honestly. Kobe had the best or one of the best supporting casts in the league at a time in which melo and howard was his main competition. all the truly great players like lebron, wade, dirk, and kg (09 injury) were off the playing field for him.

the Lakers beat one really quality team in their 2 year run...the 10 Celtics.

Jesus christ. :facepalm

[SamuraiSWISH]

the Lakers beat one really quality team in their 2 year run...the 10 Celtics.
In 2008 the Spurs were legit, granted they didn't "win" a ring that season. I thought the 2009 Nuggets were pretty good. 2010 Thunder were pretty nice as well. Their youth gave LA problems more so than they would have any other team, even if they were a lower seed. But yea, I guess you're right.

[rhythmic]

In 2008 the Spurs were legit, granted they didn't "win" a ring that season. I thought the 2009 Nuggets were pretty good. 2010 Thunder were pretty nice as well. Their youth gave LA problems more so than they would have any other team, even if they were a lower seed. But yea, I guess you're right.

The Suns weren't good in 2010?
Kobe faced like 12 teams from 08-10' with over or close to 50 wins.

The hate towards the man on this forum is just sad now.

[All Net]

Oscar in the top 7?"

[Deuce Bigalow]

Pre-Modern Era (1947-1980)
1. Bill Russell
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Jerry West
5. Oscar Robertson
6. Elgin Baylor
7. Bob Petitt
8. Julius Erving
9. George Mikan
10. John Havlicek/Rick Barry/Bob Cousy

Modern Era (1981-present)
1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Larry Bird
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Kobe Bryant
6. Tim Duncan
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Lebron James
9. Kevin Garnertt
10. Charles Barkley/Karl Malone/Dirk Nowitzki

[SamuraiSWISH]

The Suns weren't good in 2010?
I don't think they were as impressive as these teams:

2008 Spurs
2009 Nuggets
2010 Celtics

How am I hating on Kobe? I don't hate Kobe at all.

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[rhythmic]

2009/10:

Oklahoma: 50-32
Utah: 53-29
Phoenix: 54-28
Boston: 50-32

2008/09:

Utah: 48-34
Rockets: 53-29
Nuggets: 54-28
Magic: 59-23

2007/08:

Nuggets 50-32
Utah: 54-28
Spurs: 56-26
Celtics: 66-16


Yeah the easiest road to three straight finals ever, right? :rolleyes:
Kobe isn't LeBron people, do your homework!

[DMAVS41]

2009/10:

Oklahoma: 50-32
Utah: 53-29
Phoenix: 54-28
Boston: 50-32

2008/09:

Utah: 48-34
Rockets: 53-29
Nuggets: 54-28
Magic: 59-23

2007/08:

Nuggets 50-32
Utah: 54-28
Spurs: 56-26
Celtics: 66-16


Yeah the easiest road to three straight finals ever, right? :rolleyes:
Kobe isn't LeBron people, do your homework!


If you take the Lakers relative to that competition...it's not difficult at all. The Lakers were huge favorites in every series except the 10 Finals...just like I said. And I love hearing about how good the 10 Thunder were. Kobe was hurt and playing awful in half that series and the Lakers still won in 6...that is called a huge margin of error buddy.

[KG215]

Who's more solid? 27, 6 and 5 or 20, 11 and 4?
What are you talking about? Is the 27-6-5 supposed to be Kobe? I'm not trying to say Gasol was better or "more solid" than Kobe. I'm just saying it's disingenuous to say Gasol was just "solid" and flatout wrong to say he put up David West numbers.

[Legends66NBA7]

Ah okay. I disagree with the ABA thing (unless you discredit the NBA at lead in the final four pre-merger seasons) but to each his own.

BTW you can put both Cousy and Hondo in there. You only have nine guys on your first list.

The only guy on the second list I'm not sure about is Moses (since his career is hurt playing some of his best years pre-1980, and I'm generally not as high on him). Maybe I'd go Dirk or Barkley instead (I'm actually very high on Stockton and Robinson too, but that's just me). Again everybody is entitled to his own list.

Oh, I hear ya.

I'm going to a more comprehensive list later on, looking at the full picture to see who fits where. Should have interesting results.

[SamuraiSWISH]

If you take the Lakers relative to that competition...it's not difficult at all. The Lakers were huge favorites in every series except the 10 Finals...just like I said.
Well records doesn't always mean shit.

Look at the 2010 records. All those teams in the West had better records than the 2010 Celtics.

None of those teams were close to being as good as that Celtic team.

[DMAVS41]

Well records doesn't always mean shit.

Look at the 2010 records. All those teams in the West had better records than the 2010 Celtics.

None of those teams were close to being as good as that Celtic team.

Totally agree.

[rhythmic]

It's not hate to simply say that Kobe had more help than any of the other truly elite players. If you want to put Howard in there in 11...I guess you could, but did the 09 Magic scare the Lakers at all?

The margin of error for the Lakers in 09 and 10 was quite large...similar to the margin of error, but not quite as big, as the 13 Heat.

How exactly did he have more help then anyone else?
He had Pau Gasol who was 0-12 in the playoffs as a leader and Lamar Odom, WHO ELSE DID HE HAVE?

Ariza, Artest, Farmar, Sasha, who?
Qhy do you overexeggerate things to make it look like Kobe wasn't carrying his team on his shoulders every year until the NBA finals. Go rewatch the tapes, check the box scores; do what you have to do, because you clearly don't remember the million momentum killing shots Kobe hit against those WC teams over and over again.

Yes he didn't do as great in the NBA finals but he also faced terrific defensive squads, and his teammates (like Gasol & Artest) helped him out a lot.

But don't make it out like Gasol, Odom & Artest/Ariza is a gift from god.
Give me a break, Bynum hardly contributed anything from 08'-10' due to injuries and Ariza came back in 08' against the Celtics after being injured and was hardly 70% in those games.

[KG215]

If you take the Lakers relative to that competition...it's not difficult at all. The Lakers were huge favorites in every series except the 10 Finals...just like I said. And I love hearing about how good the 10 Thunder were. Kobe was hurt and playing awful in half that series and the Lakers still won in 6...that is called a huge margin of error buddy.
This is something I've tirelessly gone back-and-forth with the Kobe fanboys that like to point out how "weak" of a #2 option Gasol was (historically speaking) when they won back-to-back in '09 and '10. And before I get started (again), I'm not now, nor have I ever belittled Kobe'splay those two years. I just get annoyed when someone says "Yeah, but Kobe won back-to-back with Pau Gasol as his #2!" because it ignores context and how the rest of the league was constructed at the time.

Historically speaking, no, Kobe probably didn't have the most impressive second banana or a historically good supporting cast; but, at the same time, the main competition wasn't historically strong either. In the East you had the Howard/Turkoglu/Lewis Magic and LeBron/Mo Williams Cavs. The only legit team that I think would be a good to great team and championship contender in any era were the Celtics. And in the West you had the Melo/Billups Nuggets and Nash/Stoudemire Suns. I can give you the Spurs but Duncan was starting to slow down a bit by 2009 and 2010, although his big drop-off wouldn't come until 2011 and 2012, before he found the fountain of youth this year.

[Doranku]

this. don't pay attention to him. he hears someone talk about the Lakers dominant front line...and then he somehow removes Gasol from the equation.

makes no sense. and of course he is wrong about some numbers...odom averaged 10/9 and 12/9 in the playoffs during the title runs.

it doesn't even matter what they did honestly. Kobe had the best or one of the best supporting casts in the league at a time in which melo and howard was his main competition. all the truly great players like lebron, wade, dirk, and kg (09 injury) were off the playing field for him.

the Lakers beat one really quality team in their 2 year run...the 10 Celtics.

And who exactly is LeBron's competition?

37 year old Duncan? :roll:

[Heavincent]

The Lakers were beatable in 09 and 10. They weren't this completely dominant and ultra stacked team that people such as DMAVS make them out to be. Talent wise, there were teams in the playoffs that weren't too far off. The league just had more parity back then.

[longtime lurker]

What are you talking about? Is the 27-6-5 supposed to be Kobe? I'm not trying to say Gasol was better or "more solid" than Kobe. I'm just saying it's disingenuous to say Gasol was just "solid" and flatout wrong to say he put up David West numbers.

No I'm just asking in your opinion what you would consider 27,6 and 5 if 20, 11 and 4 is more than solid.

[KG215]

If you take the Lakers relative to that competition...it's not difficult at all. The Lakers were huge favorites in every series except the 10 Finals...just like I said. And I love hearing about how good the 10 Thunder were. Kobe was hurt and playing awful in half that series and the Lakers still won in 6...that is called a huge margin of error buddy.
Not to mention OKC was relying on 20 and 21 year olds as their best players who were getting their first taste of the playoffs. Durant played like shit, and Harden and Ibaka were nowhere close to being major factors. Westbrook played well (for a 21 year old in his first playoffs), but opposing PG's torching the Lakers was, and still is, a pretty common theme.

[KG215]

No I'm just asking in your opinion what you would consider 27,6 and 5 if 20, 11 and 4 is more than solid.
It'd depend on the efficiency of the 27-6-5 player. Because Gasol was giving the Lakers 20-11-4-2 on really good efficiency.

Still, the 27 PPG player's efficiency would have to be pretty terrible for him to not at least be on par with the 20-11-4-2 player, because 7 more PPG is a pretty big difference, and I'm a pretty firm believer that scoring is the most important aspect in basketball; and that truly great scorers are more lethal and more likely to lead their teams deep into the playoffs.

[rhythmic]

Totally agree.

You know it's very amusing to me to see people like you always call out us Kobe "stans", yet you guys say the dumbest shit ever.

1) Garnett & Pierce missed a combined 24 games in 09/10'
2) Doc Rivers kept his starting five's minutes low because they were an older team
3) They were conserving energy for the playoffs, where they've elevated their game significantly.

But what do I know, I'm just a stupid Laker fan. :rolleyes:

[DMAVS41]

And who exactly is LeBron's competition?

37 year old Duncan? :roll:

What? I'm not propping Lebron or his competition this year...LOL...love how you can't refute my point so you just come up with a red herring.

I even compared it to Lebron this year...LOL

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[longtime lurker]

It'd depend on the efficiency of the 27-6-5 player. Because Gasol was giving the Lakers 20-11-4-2 on really good efficiency.

Still, the 27 PPG player's efficiency would have to be pretty terrible for him to not at least be on par with the 20-11-4-2 player, because 7 more PPG is a pretty big difference, and I'm a pretty firm believer that scoring is the most important aspect in basketball; and that truly great scorers are more lethal and more likely to lead their teams deep into the playoffs.

Thanks for your answer. Only reason I brought that up that according to some people putting up 27, 6 and 5 is considered being carried while 20,11, and 4 is considered the one doing the carrying.

[talkingconch]

why are lebron stans so stupid? most of the world knows kobe is top 9. lol @ lebron should be in top 10. idiots

[Jacks3]

they didn't have the most talent.

08: celtics, spurs, and nuggets were all more talented
09: nuggets and magic had more
10: celtics were more talented. suns were right there. so were the jazz.

the difference is that the lakers had a top 2 player in the world putting together legendary post-seasons (30/6/6/2/57% TS/26 PER). he was the best player by thousands of miles in almost every series.

:bowdown:

[branslowski]

David West 19ppg 8reb 50%

Gasol 18ppg 11reb 53%

Not a huge difference really..


And the season a year before that:

David West 21ppg 8reb 47%fg(West takes more perimeter jumpers)

Gasol 19ppg 9reb 56%

Not really any distance.

Gasol= David West and Chris Bosh....Not a diss since those players are solid.

[pegasus]

If you take the Lakers relative to that competition...it's not difficult at all. The Lakers were huge favorites in every series except the 10 Finals...just like I said. And I love hearing about how good the 10 Thunder were. Kobe was hurt and playing awful in half that series and the Lakers still won in 6...that is called a huge margin of error buddy.
Wasn't the series tied at 2-2 when Kobe had his knee drained and started playing like himself again? I even recall him asking to be put on WB and shutting him down.

[rhythmic]

Who had more help? That is the question. It's not so much about how great some players on the Lakers were. Although you under-rate the **** out of what Ariza did that year.

Look at the competition. All the truly elite guys didn't have that kind of help. I'm not saying it was terrible competition, but 09 and 10 outside the Celtics just wasn't that tough.

Okay lets analyze 2008 season then...

Utah: D.Williams had Boozer, Kirilenko, Milsap, Okur, Korver, Harpring.
Nuggets: Anthony had Martin, Iverson, Nene, Camby & JR Smith
Suns: Nash had Amare, Barbosa, Marion, Bell, Shaq, Hill & DIaw
Hornets: Paul had West, Chandler, Peja & Bonzi
Spurs: Duncan had Parker, Manu & Finley
Houston: Ming had McGrady, Scola, Battier, C.Landry & Alston.
Dallas: Dirk had J. Howard, Kidd, Terry, D. Harris & Stackhouse
Lakers: Kobe had Odom, Gasol, Fisher, Ariza, Farmar & Sasha

Should we compare their respective numbers?
Or are you seriously trying to diminsh the fact that Kobe was BY FAR the best player/leader in 2008 out of all those superstars. Kobe is what made LA so good, there is no ifs, and or buts about it buddy.

If you keep on yapping, I'll go further and show you that Kobe's teammates weren't anything special in comparison to other superstar's supporting cast.

[Heavincent]

Wasn't the series tied at 2-2 when Kobe had his knee drained and started playing like himself again? I even recall him asking to be put on WB and shutting him down.

Yup his defense on Westbrook was probably the most important aspect of the series.

DMAVS is a stat nerd though.

[branslowski]

Wasn't the series tied at 2-2 when Kobe had his knee drained and started playing like himself again? I even recall him asking to be put on WB and shutting him down.

You gotta remember, everyone didn't really watch the series, so they wouldn't know the on court intangibles the players had, especially if you only a boxscore nerd.

[K Xerxes]

You gotta remember, everyone didn't really watch the series, so they wouldn't know the on court intangibles the players had, especially if you only a boxscore nerd.

Considering that you're quoting Gasol's and West's boxscore numbers to somewhat equate their production and also ignoring all context, you've just defined irony. Well done.

[KG215]

David West 19ppg 8reb 50%

Gasol 18ppg 11reb 53%

Not a huge difference really..


And the season a year before that:

David West 21ppg 8reb 47%fg(West takes more perimeter jumpers)

Gasol 19ppg 9reb 56%

Not really any distance.

Gasol= David West and Chris Bosh....Not a diss since those players are solid.
Now how about looking up their playoff stats and then get back to me.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Wasn't the series tied at 2-2 when Kobe had his knee drained and started playing like himself again? I even recall him asking to be put on WB and shutting him down.
That's the reason they won the series. Westbrook was destroying Fisher and co. and was the entire reason OKC was making it a series. Artest had Durant shook with the physicality. Once Kobe got his knee drained and they put him on Westbrook, lights out and series was over.

[branslowski]

Considering that you're quoting Gasol's and West's boxscore numbers to somewhat equate their production and also ignoring all context, you've just defined irony. Well done.

I watched their games though, Gasol had a better impact, where did I say he didn't?:hammerhead:

I was callin Gasol the Best Skilled Big Man ever only behind Hakeem.

[KG215]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[Heavincent]

His point, and my point though, is that who had a better second option than Kobe in '09 and '10? I think it's similar to the 3-peat Lakers. Shaq, the best player in the game, had the best second option (by a decent margin) of all the contenders, while not having as strong of a 3-8 or 3-9 as everyone else. Kobe, arguably the best and at worst the second best player in '09 and '10, had probably the best second option of all the contenders, while not having quite as strong of a 3-8 or 3-9 as the other contenders.


Um...lets not compare 3 peat Kobe to Gasol.

[K Xerxes]

I watched their games though, Gasol had a better impact, where did I say he didn't?:hammerhead:

I was callin Gasol the Best Skilled Big Man ever only behind Hakeem.

You literally just that Gasol = West and Bosh after quoting boxscore stats, and that it's not a diss because it's still solid.

That's like me quoting some of Dominique Wilkins' numbers next to Kobe's and just saying 'ah close enough, they're the same'.

[branslowski]

Now how about looking up their playoff stats and then get back to me.

I used the regular season because of a more game sample...So I'll do the year they both were in the playoffs: (Also, mind you, I'm a Gasol fan, but ppl acting like he was Shaq or something is dumb)

Playoffs same year:

Gasol 18.3 ppg 10.8reb 58% Solid sidekick numbers

West 18ppg 7reb 40%

Both offensive production on par...West shoots more perimeter shots, and besides being nearly even with Gasol, he shits on any player Kobe has ever played with since Shaq....

Gasol>>West IMO, but to act as if they were on different levels during the sametime is dumb...

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[KG215]

I used the regular season because of a more game sample...So I'll do the year they both were in the playoffs: (Also, mind you, I'm a Gasol fan, but ppl acting like he was Shaq or something is dumb)

Playoffs same year:

Gasol 18.3 ppg 10.8reb 58% Solid sidekick numbers

West 18ppg 7reb 40%

Both offensive production on par...West shoots more perimeter shots, and besides being nearly even with Gasol, he shits on any player Kobe has ever played with since Shaq....

Gasol>>West IMO, but to act as if they were on different levels during the sametime is dumb...
:facepalm

[longtime lurker]

David West 19ppg 8reb 50%

Gasol 18ppg 11reb 53%

Not a huge difference really..


And the season a year before that:

David West 21ppg 8reb 47%fg(West takes more perimeter jumpers)

Gasol 19ppg 9reb 56%

Not really any distance.

Gasol= David West and Chris Bosh....Not a diss since those players are solid.

You would be right, but then you'd completely be ignoring playmaking and defense from Gasol. Gasol>>West, but then again I don't think it's some huge insult calling Gasol solid.

[KG215]

Um...lets not compare 3 peat Kobe to Gasol.
Right, because I was basically saying '09 and '10 Gasol = 3-peat Kobe.

[rhythmic]

:facepalm Yes people, Pau Gasol was the 2nd option that Kobe was to Shaq. :oldlol:

Lets pretend like Nash didn't have Amare, Ming didn't have McGrady, Garnett didn't have Pierce (Finals MVP), Duncan didn't have Manu, D. Williams didn't have Boozer.

Newsflash idiots; here's the All-NBA teams in 2008.

Bryant
James
Paul
Garnett
Howard

(1st Team)

Duncan
Nash
Nowitzki
Stoudemire
D.Williams

(2nd Team)

Boozer
Manu
McGrady
Ming
Pierce

Funny, how Manu, Stoudemire, Boozer, McGrady & Pierce all make All-NBA (as 2nd options on their teams), yet somehow Kobe had BY FAR the best 2nd option during the 3peat.

[rhythmic]

Who the **** is talking about 08? The Lakers lost...

We were talking about 09 and 10. I agree the 08 competition was harder...and the Lakers lost.

You are making my point for me!!!!!!!!!!

Lakers made it to the NBA finals, took a 66 win Boston squad (who was fully healthy) to 6 games without their starting center and an injured starting SF.

Dumbass.
My point is, Kobe still beat 3 great WC teams who had just as much supporting cast as him.

I'll do 09 & 10 tomorrow, as I'm leaving work soon and won't have time to complete the analysis.

[KG215]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[longtime lurker]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[rhythmic]

Right, because I was basically saying '09 and '10 Gasol = 3-peat Kobe.

Holy shit. :cry: Hopeless. :facepalm

[rhythmic]

What NBA teams to Gasol make during the 3 peat? I'm curious to know.

08/09 = 3rd All-NBA
09/10 = 3rd All-NBA

:oldlol:

[KG215]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[rhythmic]

Funny, because I get the same impression reading most of your posts.

Then quit replying to my posts and sending me private messages ******, I don't give a shit what you say or think.

You're a shit poster and I've said that to you for a year now.
You're the idiot that is comparing 01'-02' Kobe to 09'-10' Gasol, only a pure moron with no knowledge of the game would ever aknowledge such stupidity.

[longtime lurker]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[branslowski]

I always thought 1st trumps 3rd but hey who am I to argue :lol

:roll: At the end of the day, we all believe my boy Gasol was solid... But the "Kobe got carried" statement and the "stacked" statement is ridiculously dumb.

[KG215]

Then quit replying to my posts and sending me private messages ******, I don't give a shit what you say or think.

You're a shit poster and I've said that to you for a year now.
You're the idiot that is comparing 01'-02' Kobe to 09'-10' Gasol, only a pure moron with no knowledge of the game would ever aknowledge such stupidity.
Shit poster huh? guess we have something in common. And I'm not comparing 3-peat Kobe to '09 and '10 Gasol the way you think I am but u guess that's on me. I should've known doing some simple reading and critical thinking would be beyond your intellectual abilities.

[Legends66NBA7]

:facepalm

Seriously, only on ISH can a 18% fg difference be "on par".

:oldlol:

[Legends66NBA7]

Shit poster huh? guess we have something in common. And I'm not comparing 3-peat Kobe to '09 and '10 Gasol the way you think I am but u guess that's on me. I should've known doing some simple reading and critical thinking would be beyond your intellectual abilities.

What is the comparison between 3 peat Bryant and 08-10 Gasol ? I skimmed through the thread and didn't see the debate.

[longtime lurker]

:roll: At the end of the day, we all believe my boy Gasol was solid... But the "Kobe got carried" statement and the "stacked" statement is ridiculously dumb.

Gasol was integral to the Lakers championships. That's all that needs to be said. Even the man Kobe has been quoted saying no Gasol, no championships. The problem is posters are these message boards that would rather pass a kidney stone than give Kobe any kind of credit. They literally try to use every excuse in the book except Kobe for why the Lakers won. It's pretty pathetic really.

[CanYouDigIt]

http://boards.420chan.org/wooo/src/1376779350997.jpg

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[TonyMontana]

Lol @ comparing David West and Chris Bosh to Pau Gasol.

David West is a mediocre defender since he isn't very long. In his prime he was a pick and pop shooter offensively(similar to Miami Bosh).

Chris Bosh pretty good help defender, but terrible in man because he is a sissy. Offensively his niche role is shooting long two-pointers, does nothing else of note.

Meanwhile Pau Gasol, a legit 7 foot frame. An elite team help defender on top of man defender in his prime. OFFENSIVELY you can throw the ball to him in the post and run your offense through him. You can't run an offense through Bosh or West. Amazing passer, in his prime he had the best low post moves in the entire NBA.

Different planet than guys like West and Bosh. :oldlol: Its like these guys dont even watch the players play. I would love to trade Bosh for Prime Gasol.

[jzek]

ONLY reason Kobe is in the top 10 is because Shaq gifted him with 3 rings which brings his total to 5. If you subtract those rings from his resume, he's not top 10 material.

[CanYouDigIt]

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[riseagainst]

Loooool hilarious seeing Silkk log into his Electric Slide account right after he says some stupid shit. :roll:

:roll:

[KG215]

What is the comparison between 3 peat Bryant and 08-10 Gasol ? I skimmed through the thread and didn't see the debate.
I was saying that the '09 and '10 Lakers were similar in that they maybe had the best "dynamic duo" of the contenders, but their 3-8 or 3-9 players weren't as good as the other contenders. Which I think was the case with the 3-peat Lakers, except Shaq was clearly the best/most dominant player in the league while it was debatable between Kobe and LeBron; and Kobe was clearly the best #2 in 2001 and 2002, and it's debatable that Gasol was the best #2 among contenders in '09 and '10. But the 3-peat Lakers weren't particularly deep compared to other contenders 3-8.

I wasn't, not even a little bit, trying to say '09 and '10 Gasol was as good as 3-peat Kobe. I mean is it too far-fetched to say '09 and '10 Gasol was arguably the best #2 on a contender? LeBron had Mo Williams, Dwight had Hedo and Shard, and Carmelo had Billups. I guess maybe Nash and/or Amare (whoever you considered the #2 in '09 and '10) might've been better, but the only team I feel that for sure had a better #2 than Gasol were the Celtics when healthy...which obviously wasn't the case in 2009.

And I probably should've clarified, but I'm basing this a lot on what Gasol did in the playoffs those two years, especially in 2010. And before some other Kobe fan jumps down my throat, I don't think Gasol should've won the Finals MVP in 2010. I should know better, too, because if you say one little thing that Kobe fans construe as a knock or slight to Kobe, there's going to be at least 2 or 3 that come at you and jump down your throat. I've been in enough arguments with them to know that I should word any Kobe related post as carefully as possible.

[AlphaWolf24]

Bird and Oscar over Kobe???

http://31.media.tumblr.com/545395c894ee7e1cd8ebacaad8f38245/tumblr_mkjfaw5wVd1rt5fkyo1_250.gif
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[AlphaWolf24]

1. Jordan
2. Magic (?)
3. Russel
4. Kareem
5.Bird
6. Wilt
7. Oscar (lol)
8. Kobe (should be 5..no lower then 6, but majority of high IQ earth has him between the 3-6 range)
9. Shaq
10. Duncan

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/lists/Top-10-players-in-NBA-history#photo-title=Michael+Jordan+%25281984-2003%2529&photo=30219324

Those 10 are mostly the players every has in there 10...I think KAJ should of been at the 2 spot, I also think Oscar should of been 10 or 11....List is from 12', but it basically gives you what the general perception is of the top 10....


Fixed......It is Criminal how Larry Bird get put ahead of Kobe....( I know he and Magic had fueled the best era of hoop)...but as a alltime Player...Kobe should def be ahead of him.

[secund2nun]

That list is a f***** joke! Kobe is not even a top 20 player of all time, let alone better than massively superior players like Duncan, Shaq, and Lebron.

How stupid people are. Just suck the jizz out of the media's **** all day long.

[branslowski]

That list is a f***** joke! Kobe is not even a top 20 player of all time, let alone better than massively superior players like Duncan, Shaq, and Lebron.

How stupid people are. Just suck the jizz out of the media's **** all day long.

You try to hard....

[305Baller]

Wheres Dr. J? Hmmm???!?!?!?!

[LA Lakers]

Solid list but where is Hakeem The Dream? Magic or Kareem should be at number 2. Wilt at 3 Bird at 4 Russell at 5.

[qrich]

David West 19ppg 8reb 50%

Gasol 18ppg 11reb 53%

Not a huge difference really..


And the season a year before that:

David West 21ppg 8reb 47%fg(West takes more perimeter jumpers)

Gasol 19ppg 9reb 56%

Not really any distance.

Gasol= David West and Chris Bosh....Not a diss since those players are solid.

Shit, this should be fun

Maggette: 22/6/3 with 1 steal/3 turnovers on 14 shots per game in 37 minutes per.
Bryant: 28/6/6 with 1 steal/4 turnovers on 20 shots per game in 41 minutes per.

There wasn't really any distance between Bad Porn and Kobe.


Corey Maggette...most underrated player of all time :bowdown:
http://clippers.topbuzz.com/albums/corey-maggette/maggette_dunk_2006_10_25_Corey_Slams_It_Home.sized .jpg

[branslowski]

Solid list but where is Hakeem The Dream? Magic or Kareem should be at number 2. Wilt at 3 Bird at 4 Russell at 5.

Yea, Hakeem is like 10th for me.

[TheMilkyBarKid]

I cant take this list seriously with kobe ahead of shaq, duncan and hakeem. Also magic and oscar are too high for my liking.

[Noyze]

How the **** is Kobe above Duncan???

[air mamba]

Not a bad list, at least they have all the people who are expected to make this list, but they certainly used a different criteria in ranking them.

Give em some credit, its hard making a top 10 list cause there are at least 15 greats who have an argument, but you only have ten spots, the other 5 just have to settle for the top 15.

[0000000]

Regardless of the order, those are the top 10 players of all time with the exception of Oscar IMO. I'd put LeBron instead of him.
If you're going to rank them, it's really splitting hairs and it's just too difficult.

[kurple]

Of topic.

What happened to Branslowski? I used to be a decent poster

[kurple]

How the **** is Kobe above Duncan???
or Shaq

[NumberSix]

Anyone who puts Kobe above Shaq is automatically discredited. Go put Pippen above Jordan or Wade above LeBron while you're at it.

[Unbiased_one]

I don't feel comfortable with Russell's rankings, ever. I don't think he should be ranked as high as he often is ... but, whatever. FoxSports is dumb, how is LeBron not in the top ten already? He already has as many rings as Hakeem, and Wilt. And more than Oscar Robertson? While on an individual level being as impressive, if not more.

Russell was in the league for 13 seasons. He won 11 titles. The two losses were once when he was injured and once against the greatest single season of all time. His team missed the playoffs the year before he got there and the year after he left. He is clearly #1 in my books.

[KG215]

Of topic.

What happened to Branslowski? I used to be a decent poster
I don't know, but eh's turned into an annoying, shitty poster the last few months. Seeing all the green rep he's got, I'm guessing he used to be a good poster, kills it in the OTC, or has a bunch of alts and reps himself. I like to assume the best about people initially, so I'm guessing he did actually used to be a good poster, I just don't remember him. But he went full blown "Kobetard" at some point in the last few months or year.

[branslowski]

I don't know, but eh's turned into an annoying, shitty poster the last few months. Seeing all the green rep he's got, I'm guessing he used to be a good poster, kills it in the OTC, or has a bunch of alts and reps himself. I like to assume the best about people initially, so I'm guessing he did actually used to be a good poster, I just don't remember him. But he went full blown "Kobetard" at some point in the last few months or year.

:oldlol: Always been a logical poster dumbass. Your personal dislike for Kobe makes you think that because I speak knowledge to u haters.

No alt accounts here. Objective posters (Kblaze, Shaqattack, RBA, exc) know da deal. You don't. I've crushed comp wit facts, got repped for it, I've had solid post dude. Just deal wit it.

Will continue to own.

[zoom17]

Anyone who puts Kobe above Shaq is automatically discredited. Go put Pippen above Jordan or Wade above LeBron while you're at it.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[CavaliersFTW]

Either Russell is GOAT, or Wilt. Michael, and Kareem, and any other GOAT candidate didn't dominate like Wilt nor win like Russell. They are just lesser versions of something "in between".

[HurricaneKid]

LeBron James also has more than a case, why isn't he there ?


Because this is from before he won his FIRST title.

LOL@ Kobe fans grabbing lists 18 mos old, back when people thought he was better than LeBron...

[aj1987]

Either Russell is GOAT, or Wilt. Michael, and Kareem, and any other GOAT candidate didn't dominate like Wilt nor win like Russell. They are just lesser versions of something "in between".
MJ dominated (not as much as Wilt) and won (not as much as Russell). The reason he's the GOAT is because he both dominate and win. Wilt dominated, but he didn't win like Jordan. Russell won, but didn't dominate the league like Jordan. Neither Wilt not Russell have any case over Jordan for being the GOAT.


Stupid list. Shaq is top 5 and Duncan is #8.

[fpliii]

MJ dominated (not as much as Wilt) and won (not as much as Russell). The reason he's the GOAT is because he both dominate and win. Wilt dominated, but he didn't win like Jordan. Russell won, but didn't dominate the league like Jordan. Neither Wilt not Russell have any case over Jordan for being the GOAT.


Stupid list. Shaq is top 5 and Duncan is #8.

What the ****? The object of the game isn't individual scoring.

MJ is a strong GOAT candidate but it's absolutely insane/ignorant/disrespectful to categorically dismiss Russell.

:facepalm

Posts like this, ugh.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

MJ dominated (not as much as Wilt) and won (not as much as Russell). The reason he's the GOAT is because he both dominate and win. Wilt dominated, but he didn't win like Jordan. Russell won, but didn't dominate the league like Jordan. Neither Wilt not Russell have any case over Jordan for being the GOAT.


Stupid list. Shaq is top 5 and Duncan is #8.

Jordan was also more dominant in the playoffs.

[tpols]

MJ dominated (not as much as Wilt) and won (not as much as Russell). The reason he's the GOAT is because he both dominate and win. Wilt dominated, but he didn't win like Jordan. Russell won, but didn't dominate the league like Jordan. Neither Wilt not Russell have any case over Jordan for being the GOAT.


Stupid list. Shaq is top 5 and Duncan is #8.
How the fvck did Russel not dominate?

[Owl]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[Owl]

How the fvck did Russel [sic] not dominate?
Well from the early 60s on he was consistently the worst (true) shooting 30+ mpg center (or second to Thurmond) and had the lowest usage amongst that group. So scoring wise he was a substantial drag on his team's offense. No other top 10 all time figure has such a clear flaw in their game.

Given the lack of proven causation between Boston's entire defensive prowess and Russell (he's going to get credit for a fair bit, but K.C. was considered the decades best defensive guard, Sanders the best defensive forward, Havlicek became an automatic all-Defense first team once that team was created), it's difficult to prove his level of impact and thus his individual "dominance".

It depends what is meant by dominate: clearly his team won a lot and he was their best player for, at least, the majority of that run, but one could argue that he didn't dominate, or that it is difficult to prove that he (distinguished from the Boston Celtics) did.

[aj1987]

What the ****? The object of the game isn't individual scoring.

MJ is a strong GOAT candidate but it's absolutely insane/ignorant/disrespectful to categorically dismiss Russell.

:facepalm

Posts like this, ugh.
The only thing that MJ was good at was scoring? Dude dominated on both sides of the court. Anyways, as I said, MJ dominated on both sides of the floor and he won a LOT as well.

As Kuniva said, MJ was a monster in the playoffs. FFS, the guy averaged 40 PPG in the Finals. Not sure if anyone has ever done it.

Russell did win 11 rings, but his teams were insanely stacked. Replace Russell with KG/Duncan/Wilt, they might win the same number of rings (if not more, in Wilt's case). Russell was a damn good player and a top 5 GOAT, but he's just not on MJ's level, IMO.


How the fvck did Russel not dominate?
MJ was a more dominant player than Russell. MJ is arguably the greatest scorer and the greatest perimeter defender. Russell, as good as he was, wasn't an offensive threat. Also, I never said Russell didn't dominate. I said MJ was more dominant than Russell.

[fpliii]

The only thing that MJ was good at was scoring? Dude dominated on both sides of the court. Anyways, as I said, MJ dominated on both sides of the floor and he won a LOT as well.

Never said or implied that, but that and ball-handling are the only things he has on Russell. A non-big can't dominate defensively based on size disadvantages. MJ was a great, complete player for a wing but he doesn't scrape the surface of Russell's defense/rebounding.


As Kuniva said, MJ was a monster in the playoffs. FFS, the guy averaged 40 PPG in the Finals. Not sure if anyone has ever done it.

I don't know offhand, maybe Baylor and West did? Or came close. Very impressive obviously though. Jordan was the best combination of volume/efficient scoring we've seen, most likely.


Russell did win 11 rings, but his teams were insanely stacked. Replace Russell with KG/Duncan/Wilt, they might win the same number of rings (if not more, in Wilt's case). Russell was a damn good player and a top 5 GOAT, but he's just not on MJ's level, IMO.

Could not disagree more about all of this. To each his own though.


MJ was a more dominant player than Russell. MJ is arguably the greatest scorer and the greatest perimeter defender. Russell, as good as he was, wasn't an offensive threat. Also, I never said Russell didn't dominate. I said MJ was more dominant than Russell.

I don't think Jordan has a case for best perimeter defender, but he's one of the best. Russell wasn't a scoring threat (though he did set the still-standing record for FG% in the 65 Finals, and had a 30-40 game to close out in G7 of the 62 Finals), but he was a good offensive player (one of the best ever big passers, could run the floor, great outlet passer from defensive rebounds/blocks, and put backs on offensive rebounds.

You're certainly entitled to your own opinion and apologies if I was hostile, but wings can never come close to impacting the game as much as bigs. Jordan came as close as anybody, but he's not the definite GOAT in my opinion.

[aj1987]

You're certainly entitled to your own opinion and apologies if I was hostile, but wings can never come close to impacting the game as much as bigs. Jordan came as close as anybody, but he's not the definite GOAT in my opinion.
I've always said this, GOAT lists are extremely subjective and personal bias is a huge part of the rankings. I think Russell is one of the greatest players of all time (have him in my top 4).

I can see where you're coming from though. Russell was arguably the greatest player of that era and he has 11 rings. It's pretty damn hard comparing Guards and bigs.

[jlip]

Bill Russell doesn't just have 11 rings. He's not "just the greatest winner". He also has 5 MVPs which is tied for 2nd most in NBA history. He also has statistical titles and owns various statistical records. What else is a GOAT candidate supposed to do?