Why Kobe is rated higher than Shaq all time [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

Ca$H

08-20-2013, 03:21 AM

Why would I post articles from analysts? In fact, why are we suppose to take credibility into what they think? A media guy is no different than an average fan other than having a journalism degree.

Kobe is overrated. Guy has only led his team to the title as the best player once but has rode dominant bigs to the title like Shaq from 00-02 and Gasol in 2010. He also jacked Gasol's 2010 Finals MVP.

When people post(troll) on message boards they can post the most outlandish things in the world without any repercussions to their image. People in the media have their actual names and faces attached to their articles so they don't get to hide behind anonymous usernames. The majority of mainstream media will not make up things just to troll because it will ruin their image/credibility. Look at Skip Bayless he really hated LeBron but even he had to concede that LeBron is currently the best because if he continued hating on LeBron it would completely ruin his credibility/journalistic integrity.

TheMilkyBarKid

08-20-2013, 03:22 AM

Another backfired thread by an ignorant kobe stan
Shaq> kobe
How does shaq's ass taste?

Electric Slide

08-20-2013, 03:23 AM

When people post(troll) on message boards they can post the most outlandish things in the world without any repercussions to their image. People in the media have their actual names and faces attached to their articles so they don't get to hide behind anonymous usernames. The majority of mainstream media will not make up things just to troll because it will ruin their image/credibility. Look at Skip Bayless he really hated LeBron but even he had to concede that LeBron is currently the best because if he continued hating on LeBron it would completely ruin his credibility/journalistic integrity.
Then chances are these idiots will just follow each other so they don't look bad which is what they do with Kobe.

They have no opinions which is just as bad.

Ca$H

08-20-2013, 03:25 AM

This is basketball. God given talent matters. If all you care about is skill then go watch golf.

All NBA Team? your main argument is a ****ing media award? :oldlol: Kobe has two chances at getting on the First team(2 guard spots), while Shaq only has 1.

Shaq would have been GOAT if he had Kobe's work ethic. Kobe would have been a role player with Shaq's work ethic. You can't deny it.

Jax

08-20-2013, 03:37 AM

Not in my book he's not.

havoc33

08-20-2013, 03:41 AM

Except Shaq's longevity was actaully better.

Kobe's longevity was overrated. He was a superstar from 01-10 but he had two shitty seasons that you don't even want to count, 2004 and 2005.

Shaq has the most consecutive 20/10 seasons of all-time and was a superstar from 1994-1995 to 2005.
How can anyone here even try to take you serious? Your constant and biased anti-Kobe posts are more than annoying, and I hope someone could ban your ass to oblivion. Furthermore, stating that Kobe's 2004 season was a shitty one just shows how little comprehension you have of basketball, and I suspect you didn't even follow the league back then. If you did, you were still sitting on mommy's lap while doing so. The fact that I'm quoting you probably only feeds your trolling nature, but I promise it'll be the last time.

Now, if you want have Shaq above Kobe in your ranking that's all fine by me, though I couldn't disagree more. Kobe has simply played on a higher level in a longer time than Shaq ever did, which is why Kobe's list of accolades is also superior to Shaq's. Kobe's arguably been a top 5 player from 2001 till 2013, and that is more than you ever can say of Shaq. 1st team selections, defensive selections, all star selections, championships... Kobe's got the advantage in almost any achievement possible, except Finals MVP's.

I will agree though that Shaq had a higher peak season than Kobe ever had. Shaq's 99-00 season is one of the most dominant seasons I've ever seen in basketball. Unfortunately, Shaq was back to his lazy ways already the next season, allowing Kobe to do much of the heavy work during the regular season and the Playoffs. Shaq had the potential to be the GOAT, but a lack of conditioning and dedication to the game caused him to miss out on achieving even more. The fact that a player of Shaq's caliber NEVER MADE THE ALL-DEFENSIVE FIRST TEAM says it all really. Tex Winter, one of the most knowledgeable people in basketball history, was in fact so sick of Shaq's lack of dedication on the defensive end, that he went on record saying that he would expose Shaq for the fraud that he was.

In the end, these are the reasons why Kobe is by most people ranked higher than Shaq. Kobe has been a constant excellence for over a decade now, and his accolades speaks for themselves. If anything, you could say that Kobe actually overachieved, as he never really had the physical gifts of Jordan, Shaq or Lebron. He had to rely on hard work and skill to make it to the top, which makes it even more impressive that he's managed to stay amongst the best for so long. This is ultimately why he's got so much respect from the greats as well, both Bird and Jordan have gone on record speaking very favorably of Kobe and his approach to the game.

kennethgriffin

08-20-2013, 03:41 AM

This is basketball. God given talent matters. If all you care about is skill then go watch golf.

All NBA Team? your main argument is a ****ing media award? :oldlol: Kobe has two chances at getting on the First team(2 guard spots), while Shaq only has 1.

only problem with that excuse is that for the most part over the last 13-15 years.. theres only been 2-3 good centers in the nba at a time

while kobes always had to deal with an unlimited amount of great pg's/sg's

kobe finished #1 in guard all nba 1st team voting 8 out of 11 times

and the only times he was out voted were against

- chris paul in 2013
- derrick rose in 2011
- jason kidd in 2002

all 3 were point guards

so not one single time did kobe bryant steal a 1st team all nba as "the 2nd best guy at his position"

all 11 times kobe made 1st team all nba. he was the top voted shooting guard

ETHERED

longhornfan1234

08-20-2013, 03:42 AM

Shaq > Kobe.

Superior peak, and won 3 championships as the man.

havoc33

08-20-2013, 03:52 AM

-Shaq relevant from 1992-2006
-Kobe relevant from 1999-2013

Looks similar to me. Kobe also has a bunch of epic failed seasons like 2005 and 2013 that shouldn't even count.

-Shaq Most 20-10 seasons all-time, yeah more of them than Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, whoever the **** you want to name.

And most importantly when both of them were in their prime during the threepeat, Shaq was far and away the better player. Kobe was as good as he ever was in 2001 and he didn't even compare to Shaq who was winning the Finals MVP putting 33 PPG and 16 RPG on 58% shooting vs the current DPOY. Kobe shot 41% vs Eric Snow. :roll:Funny how you point how good Shaq's stats were in the Finals, yet say NOTHING about who dominated the first three rounds against faaaar superior competition. If the Playoffs ended after the 2001 WCF, Kobe, not Shaq, would have received the MVP. Epic fail once again on your part. Also, it just proves your basketball ignorance that you put so much value into Finals MVP's, failing to realize that match-ups and strategy will play into it. I guess James Worthy was better and more important to the Lakers than Magic in 88 as well huh? Thought so.

And you can't be serious about Kobe's prime being in 2001.. kid, just stop will you.

sbw19

08-20-2013, 03:53 AM

Just out of curiosity what're the two's career playoff and finals statistical averages?

Ca$H

08-20-2013, 03:56 AM

Another backfired thread by an ignorant kobe stan
Shaq> kobe
How does shaq's ass taste?

I posted a link and a quote. You are calling the author of those rankings an ignorant Kobe stan?

Ca$H

08-20-2013, 03:59 AM

Then chances are these idiots will just follow each other so they don't look bad which is what they do with Kobe.

They have no opinions which is just as bad.

Like you previously stated these are people with college degrees. You most likely don't have a GED. So I am suppose to value your opinion over their opinions?

TonyMontana

08-20-2013, 04:02 AM

Funny how you point how good Shaq's stats were in the Finals, yet say NOTHING about who dominated the first three rounds against faaaar superior competition. If the Playoffs ended after the 2001 WCF, Kobe, not Shaq, would have received the MVP. Epic fail once again on your part. Also, it just proves your basketball ignorance that you put so much value into Finals MVP's, failing to realize that match-ups and strategy will play into it. I guess James Worthy was better and more important to the Lakers than Magic in 88 as well huh? Thought so.

And you can't be serious about Kobe's prime being in 2001.. kid, just stop will you.

You mean Kobe putting up stats against Sean Elliot while Shaq faced double teams from TWO MVP 7 footers in David Robinson and Tim Duncan?

:roll:

The award is "Finals MVP" not "first round MVP". If Kobe was anything close to being Shaqs equal he would have been able to pick up at least one of them away from Shaq. Even guys like Parker and Worthy were able to steal one from their teams alphas.

Kobe was at his best in 2001. And that best was still nowhere close to Shaq. I know it must be tough for you since you started watching basketball in 2006. :roll:

28.5 PPG on 46.4% shooting and his defense was at the best it ever was. After the threepeat Kobes defense fell off a cliff. Give me Fro Kobe over any other. The defense is the difference. All of his top offensive years are around the same at 45-46%.

havoc33

08-20-2013, 04:07 AM

I posted a link and a quote. You are calling the author of those rankings an ignorant Kobe stan?
Bill Simmons, who I consider more knowledgeable than any of us, wrote the EPIC Book of Basketball (it's 700 pages long), and left Shaq out of his top 10. Kobe is at 8.

Personally I have Shaq in my top 10, but there are certainly many knowledgeable basketball heads out there who'd take Kobe over Shaq.

kennethgriffin

08-20-2013, 04:10 AM

Just out of curiosity what're the two's career playoff and finals statistical averages?

kobes playoff average ( since 1996 )

25.6ppg, 5.1rpg, 4.7 apg

kobes playoff average as a starter ( since 1999 )

27.4ppg, 5.4rpg, 5.1 apg

kobes playoff average without shaq ( since 2006 )

29.1ppg, 5.4rpg, 5.1 apg

kobes playoff average in 3 nba finals without shaq ( 2008-2010 )

29.8ppg, 5.7rpg, 5.5 apg

shaqs playoff average

24.3ppg, 11.6rpg, 2.7apg

shaqs playoff average before playing with kobe ( before 1997 )

25.3ppg, 11.4rpg, 3.7apg

shaqs playoff average after playing with kobe ( after 2004 )

16.5ppg, 8.1rpg, 1.6apg

shaqs playoff average in his only title without kobe ( 2006 )

18.4ppg, 9.8rpg, 1.7apg

havoc33

08-20-2013, 04:26 AM

You mean Kobe putting up stats against Sean Elliot while Shaq faced double teams from TWO MVP 7 footers in David Robinson and Tim Duncan?

:roll:

The award is "Finals MVP" not "first round MVP". If Kobe was anything close to being Shaqs equal he would have been able to pick up at least one of them away from Shaq. Even guys like Parker and Worthy were able to steal one from their teams alphas.

Kobe was at his best in 2001. And that best was still nowhere close to Shaq. I know it must be tough for you since you started watching basketball in 2006. :roll:

28.5 PPG on 46.4% shooting and his defense was at the best it ever was. After the threepeat Kobes defense fell off a cliff. Give me Fro Kobe over any other. The defense is the difference. All of his top offensive years are around the same at 45-46%.Once again, you show that you know NOTHING about Laker basketball. It's a ****ing disgrace that people like you are even allowed to come with this shit. If you're going to dis someone, at least bring facts, not random shit that you have read on boards since you finished high school last year.

First off, Kobe's best defensive season was in 2000, not 2001. In 2001, he actually slipped considerably, especially after his ankle problems kicked in. I remember Phil Jackson saying he was getting "embarrassed out there a bit". His 2002 season was much better defensively than his 2001 campaign.

Now why don't you know this? It's blatantly obvious; because you didn't even watch basketball back then. You are a stupid stan who come in here and look at box scores, look at advanced stats and highlights, think you know it all. But when real talk comes to play, you don't know anything about the story behind those numbers, what preceded those highlights. It's embarrassing really.

And if you want to talk stats, both you and me know that fg% don't tell the whole story, and most definitely not in Shaq's case, as he couldn't hit a freethrow if his life depended on it. Fact is that during Shaq's peak, he had the best sidekick in the history of the game to help him out. A sidekick so good, he actually stole the spotlight from him a lot of times. Now is that saying something about Shaq's level of play, or Kobe's? You be the judge.

Just so you don't get it twisted, by no means am I saying that Kobe was better than Shaq during the threepeat, cause he was not. But by 2001 Kobe was a superstar in his own right, a top 5 player, and AT TIMES was playing at a higher level than Shaq did, as evident throughout the first three rounds of the 2001 Playoffs. You don't think Shaq benefited from playing with Kobe as well? Please. Shaq never achieved anything without having a dynamic guard next to him, as evident by Penny, Kobe and Wade. He always needed someone to close out games for him, as he was not reliable in the clutch. Much like Kobe didn't win without a quality big, it goes both ways of course.

TonyMontana

08-20-2013, 04:28 AM

Just out of curiosity what're the two's career playoff and finals statistical averages?

Playoffs
Shaq: 24.3 PPG 11.6 RPG 56.3% shooting
Kobe: 25.6 PPG 5.1 RPG 44.8% shooting

We can expect Kobes numbers to dip as he goes to his last years like Shaqs did. Actually nvm we might not, the Lakers arn't even going to be making the playoffs. :oldlol:

Shaq Finals
95: 28.0 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 6.3 apg, 2.50 bpg, .595 FG%
00: 38.0 ppg, 16.7 rpg, 2.3 apg, 2.67 bpg .611 FG%
01: 33.0 ppg, 15.8 rpg, 4.8 apg, 3.40 bpg, .573 FG%
02: 36.3 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 3.8 apg, 2.75 bpg, .595 FG%
04: 26.6 ppg, 10.8 rpg, 1.6 apg, 0.60 bpg, .631 FG%
06: 13.7 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 2.8 apg, 0.83 bpg, .607 FG%

Kobe Finals
00: 15.6 PPG, 4.6 RPG, 4.2 APG, 1.4 BPG, .367 FG%
01: 24.6 PPG, 7.8 RPG, 5.8 APG, 1.4 BPG, .415 FG%
02: 26.8 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 5.3 APG, .75 BPG, .514 FG%
04: 22.6 PPG, 2.8 RPG, 4.4 APG, .6 BPG, .381 FG%
08: 25 PPG, 4.5 RPG, 5 APG, .16 BPG 40 FG%
09: 32 PPG, 5.5 RPG, 7.4 AGP, 42% FG
10: 28 PPG, 8.0 RPG, 3.9 APG, 40.5% FG

And here are Kobe and Shaqs overall averages for all 3 threepeat titles from 00-02

Total average stats for 3 championships (15 games)=

Shaq=36 PPG, 15.4 RPG, 3.7 APG, 3 BPG 60% FG
Kobe=20 PPG, 6 RPG, 4.6 APG, 1 BPG 42% FG

:roll:

kennethgriffin

08-20-2013, 04:35 AM

Playoffs
Shaq: 24.3 PPG 11.6 RPG 56.3% shooting
Kobe: 25.6 PPG 5.1 RPG 44.8% shooting

We can expect Kobes numbers to dip as he goes to his last years like Shaqs did. Actually nvm we might not, the Lakers arn't even going to be making the playoffs. :oldlol:

Shaq Finals
95: 28.0 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 6.3 apg, 2.50 bpg, .595 FG%
00: 38.0 ppg, 16.7 rpg, 2.3 apg, 2.67 bpg .611 FG%
01: 33.0 ppg, 15.8 rpg, 4.8 apg, 3.40 bpg, .573 FG%
02: 36.3 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 3.8 apg, 2.75 bpg, .595 FG%
04: 26.6 ppg, 10.8 rpg, 1.6 apg, 0.60 bpg, .631 FG%
06: 13.7 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 2.8 apg, 0.83 bpg, .607 FG%

Kobe Finals
00: 15.6 PPG, 4.6 RPG, 4.2 APG, 1.4 BPG, .367 FG%
01: 24.6 PPG, 7.8 RPG, 5.8 APG, 1.4 BPG, .415 FG%
02: 26.8 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 5.3 APG, .75 BPG, .514 FG%
04: 22.6 PPG, 2.8 RPG, 4.4 APG, .6 BPG, .381 FG%
08: 25 PPG, 4.5 RPG, 5 APG, .16 BPG 40 FG%
09: 32 PPG, 5.5 RPG, 7.4 AGP, 42% FG
10: 28 PPG, 8.0 RPG, 3.9 APG, 40.5% FG

And here are Kobe and Shaqs overall averages for all 3 threepeat titles from 00-02

Total average stats for 3 championships (15 games)=

Shaq=36 PPG, 15.4 RPG, 3.7 APG, 3 BPG 60% FG
Kobe=20 PPG, 6 RPG, 4.6 APG, 1 BPG 42% FG

:roll:

ya but those indiana/philly/jersey series were probably the easiest 3 teams out of all 12 the lakers played

thats why shaq dominated them. cause they werent close.

kobe dominated the best teams LA faced cause all the games were usually tight. and a tight game means shaq gets sent to the line more, and theres more chance for hackashaq or a need for a clutch player to create something

that and he faced 2 guys on their death bed ( rick and deke ) and some canadian overweight guy named todd

this is why you gotta go by playoff stats and not finals. the real finals was the first 3 rounds

TonyMontana

08-20-2013, 04:37 AM

Once again, you show that you know NOTHING about Laker basketball. It's a ****ing disgrace that people like you are even allowed to come with this shit. If you're going to dis someone, at least bring facts, not random shit that you have read on boards since you finished high school last year.

First off, Kobe's best defensive season was in 2000, not 2001. In 2001, he actually slipped considerably, especially after his ankle problems kicked in. I remember Phil Jackson saying he was getting "embarrassed out there a bit". His 2002 season was much better defensively than his 2001 campaign.

Now why don't you know this? It's blatantly obvious; because you didn't even watch basketball back then. You are a stupid stan who come in here and look at box scores, look at advanced stats and highlights, think you know it all. But when real talk comes to play, you don't know anything about the story behind those numbers, what preceded those highlights. It's embarrassing really.

And if you want to talk stats, both you and me know that fg% don't tell the whole story, and most definitely not in Shaq's case, as he couldn't hit a freethrow if his life depended on it. Fact is that during Shaq's peak, he had the best sidekick in the history of the game to help him out. A sidekick so good, he actually stole the spotlight from him a lot of times. Now is that saying something about Shaq's level of play, or Kobe's? You be the judge.

Just so you don't get it twisted, by no means am I saying that Kobe was better than Shaq during the threepeat, cause he was not. But by 2001 Kobe was a superstar in his own right, a top 5 player, and AT TIMES was playing at a higher level than Shaq did, as evident throughout the first three rounds of the 2001 Playoffs. You don't think Shaq benefited from playing with Kobe as well? Please. Shaq never achieved anything without having a dynamic guard next to him, as evident by Penny, Kobe and Wade. He always needed someone to close out games for him, as he was not reliable in the clutch. Much like Kobe didn't win without a quality big, it goes both ways of course.

Yeah you caught me. I came up with Kobe having his defensive peak in 2001 from reading box scores. :roll:

What stat would I even look at to come to that assumption you pathetic little stan? Kobes defense in the threepeat era all in all was good. I picked 2001 because he was also as good as he'd ever be offensively. In 2000 he was a role player averaging 15 PPG in the Finals and in 2002 he shot 43% in the playoffs.

Kobe was good in 2001 because the Lakers steamrolled the competition and Kobe never had to play against any kind of real adversity.

Shall I bring up Kobes stats in elimination games and Game 7s when it's a do or die game? I think I will, just to show how mentally weak this "clutch god" is.

Kobe Bryant Elimination Game Averages:
22.3 PPG, 5.6 RPG, 3.7 APG, 1.2 SPG, .6 BPG, 3.0 TOPG, 41.4 FG%, 27.5 3P%, 77.9 FT%

Kobe Bryant G7 Stats:
21.4 PPG, 7.1 RPG, 5.1 APG, .9 SPG, 1.6 BPG, 2.0 TOPG, 39.5 FG%, 32.4 3P%, 70.2 FT%

LMFAO!

Absolutely pathetic numbers when his back his against the wall. And this guy is supposed to be mentally tough? :roll:

You could have replaced Kobe with any all-star guard in the league in those years and the Lakers cruise(maybe even win more if its someone that wont sabotage the team). With Shaq though the only guy you even have a CHANCE at replacing him with would be Duncan who was in his prime and one of the top 5 or so players of all-time. Give Shaq Phil Jackson and a decent guard and your on that championship cruise. Your guaranteed releance with Shaq. You won't catch him missing the playoffs and getting owned in the first round for 3 consecutive years of his prime. :roll:

TonyMontana

08-20-2013, 04:45 AM

ya but those indiana/philly/jersey series were probably the easiest 3 teams out of all 12 the lakers played

thats why shaq dominated them. cause they werent close.

kobe dominated the best teams LA faced cause all the games were usually tight. and a tight game means shaq gets sent to the line more, and theres more chance for hackashaq or a need for a clutch player to create something

that and he faced 2 guys on their death bed ( rick and deke ) and some canadian overweight guy named todd

this is why you gotta go by playoff stats and not finals. the real finals was the first 3 rounds

Wrong

Kobe choked in the Finals just like hes done his entire career. When the pressure is on he fades. See above for his statistics in Game 7s and elimination games. When your in the Finals you start to feel the heat.

Shaq was limited by some of the Western conference teams because EVERY team in the West had to worry about Shaq in those years. If you wanted to get to the Finals you had to have an answer for Shaq. He was the top player on the planet. So what you have is teams loading up on bigs hoping to contain him.

Blazers: Sabonis, Rasheed Wallace, Brian Grant, JO not to mention Pippen came down doubling Shaq the second he touched the ball.
SAC: Divac, Webber,
Spurs: Duncan, Robinson

Kobe didn't command a quarter of the respect that Shaq did. Teams were content throwing Sean Elliots on him and living with the results. :oldlol:

Also Mutombo was the 2001 Defensive Player of the Year when Shaq split his asshole open in the Finals. Far from "on his deathbed". Thats where he was after Shaq dominated him for another Finals MVP to be added to his collection.

kobeef24

08-20-2013, 04:51 AM

kobes playoff average ( since 1996 )

25.6ppg, 5.1rpg, 4.7 apg

kobes playoff average as a starter ( since 1999 )

27.4ppg, 5.4rpg, 5.1 apg

kobes playoff average without shaq ( since 2006 )

29.1ppg, 5.4rpg, 5.1 apg

kobes playoff average in 3 nba finals without shaq ( 2008-2010 )

29.8ppg, 5.7rpg, 5.5 apg

shaqs playoff average

24.3ppg, 11.6rpg, 2.7apg

shaqs playoff average before playing with kobe ( before 1997 )

25.3ppg, 11.4rpg, 3.7apg

shaqs playoff average after playing with kobe ( after 2004 )

16.5ppg, 8.1rpg, 1.6apg

shaqs playoff average in his only title without kobe ( 2006 )

18.4ppg, 9.8rpg, 1.7apg

This is great info but you've got to include their averages when they played together. Glad to see you're actually providing some good information now though. Personally I've got Shaq slightly ahead of Kobe right now, but it's close.

havoc33

08-20-2013, 05:06 AM

Yeah you caught me. I came up with Kobe having his defensive peak in 2001 from reading box scores. :roll:

What stat would I even look at to come to that assumption you pathetic little stan? Kobes defense in the threepeat era all in all was good. I picked 2001 because he was also as good as he'd ever be offensively. In 2000 he was a role player averaging 15 PPG in the Finals and in 2002 he shot 43% in the playoffs.

Kobe was good in 2001 because the Lakers steamrolled the competition and Kobe never had to play against any kind of real adversity.

Shall I bring up Kobes stats in elimination games and Game 7s when it's a do or die game? I think I will, just to show how mentally weak this "clutch god" is.

Kobe Bryant Elimination Game Averages:
22.3 PPG, 5.6 RPG, 3.7 APG, 1.2 SPG, .6 BPG, 3.0 TOPG, 41.4 FG%, 27.5 3P%, 77.9 FT%

Kobe Bryant G7 Stats:
21.4 PPG, 7.1 RPG, 5.1 APG, .9 SPG, 1.6 BPG, 2.0 TOPG, 39.5 FG%, 32.4 3P%, 70.2 FT%

LMFAO!

Absolutely pathetic numbers when his back his against the wall. And this guy is supposed to be mentally tough? :roll:

You could have replaced Kobe with any all-star guard in the league in those years and the Lakers cruise(maybe even win more if its someone that wont sabotage the team). With Shaq though the only guy you even have a CHANCE at replacing him with would be Duncan who was in his prime and one of the top 5 or so players of all-time. Give Shaq Phil Jackson and a decent guard and your on that championship cruise. Your guaranteed releance with Shaq. You won't catch him missing the playoffs and getting owned in the first round for 3 consecutive years of his prime. :roll:Thank you for proving my point. You point to stats, yet show very little understanding of context, or even basketball for that matter. Not that I blame you or anything, it's all you can do since you're a youngster. You have no foundation to base your reasoning on, except stats. You're like Mike Brown, a stats guy.

TonyMontana

08-20-2013, 05:09 AM

Thank you for proving my point. You point to stats, yet show very little understanding of context, or even basketball for that matter. Not that I blame you or anything, it's all you can do since you're a youngster. You have no foundation to base your reasoning on, except stats. You're like Mike Brown, a stats guy.

No reply to the content just as I thought.

Which Kobe stan is next?

Soundwave

08-20-2013, 05:12 AM

It's partly to do with the fact that we saw Shaq decline a lot in his last few years.

Kobe will go through that too and then things will even out.

Unbiased_one

08-20-2013, 07:51 AM

He has 8 first team All NBA selections so he was elite for 8 seasons.

In 94-95 shaq was 29/12 on 58% from the field. He was fairly obviously elite. 2nd team

In 93-94 shaq was 29/13 on 60% and was third team all-nba .

There are other seasons like that.

Shaq was on 14 all-nba teams. Cause he played centre, that means he was elite for at least 12 seasons ( I felt at least two were dodgy, but hey all superstars get dodgy award boosts...just look at the number of first teams Kobe's been on :lol)

Unbiased_one

08-20-2013, 07:57 AM

I hate all lakers except Kobe. I am the worst kind of fan.

I don't understand how a lakers fan doesn't know this: in the three peat years, teams lived (and died) by doubling and tripling shaq. Just go watch the games...the amount of open perimeter shots taken was ridiculous. Shaq opened the floor.

branslowski

08-20-2013, 07:59 AM

This is basketball. God given talent matters. If all you care about is skill then go watch golf.

All NBA Team? your main argument is a ****ing media award? :oldlol: Kobe has two chances at getting on the First team(2 guard spots), while Shaq only has 1.

Disses the All-NBA team that's a major honor because It's a "media award", the next day proceeds to talk about Lebrons MVPs, another "media" award....Just another day in the life of low iq haters, God Bless America..

NoGunzJustSkillz

08-20-2013, 08:07 AM

I don't get how Kobe is ranked higher.

Shaq DOMINATED in the truest sense of the word, something we hadn't seen since Wilt.

Not sure how Kobe's stock rose while Shaq's dropped.
if we're going strictly on peak/prime, shaq is #1 all-time.

NoGunzJustSkillz

08-20-2013, 08:08 AM

No reply to the content just as I thought.

Which Kobe stan is next?
lol @ this fcking bum. you ain't owning ANYBODY clown.

INDI

08-20-2013, 08:25 AM

Shaq > Kobe.

Superior peak, and won 3 championships as the man.

Funny thing about these debates is, kobe fans never bring defense into the equation. Defense is what seperates kobe from Shaq and will give him the bounce over Bird once he retires

PJR

08-20-2013, 08:42 AM

Total average stats for 3 championships (15 games)=

Shaq=36 PPG, 15.4 RPG, 3.7 APG, 3 BPG 60% FG
Kobe=20 PPG, 6 RPG, 4.6 APG, 1 BPG 42% FG[/B]

:roll:

http://www.kenoki.com/images/antonio-banderas-ooo.gif

DMAVS41

08-20-2013, 08:42 AM

Yeah you caught me. I came up with Kobe having his defensive peak in 2001 from reading box scores. :roll:

What stat would I even look at to come to that assumption you pathetic little stan? Kobes defense in the threepeat era all in all was good. I picked 2001 because he was also as good as he'd ever be offensively. In 2000 he was a role player averaging 15 PPG in the Finals and in 2002 he shot 43% in the playoffs.

Kobe was good in 2001 because the Lakers steamrolled the competition and Kobe never had to play against any kind of real adversity.

Shall I bring up Kobes stats in elimination games and Game 7s when it's a do or die game? I think I will, just to show how mentally weak this "clutch god" is.

Kobe Bryant Elimination Game Averages:
22.3 PPG, 5.6 RPG, 3.7 APG, 1.2 SPG, .6 BPG, 3.0 TOPG, 41.4 FG%, 27.5 3P%, 77.9 FT%

Kobe Bryant G7 Stats:
21.4 PPG, 7.1 RPG, 5.1 APG, .9 SPG, 1.6 BPG, 2.0 TOPG, 39.5 FG%, 32.4 3P%, 70.2 FT%

LMFAO!

Absolutely pathetic numbers when his back his against the wall. And this guy is supposed to be mentally tough? :roll:

You could have replaced Kobe with any all-star guard in the league in those years and the Lakers cruise(maybe even win more if its someone that wont sabotage the team). With Shaq though the only guy you even have a CHANCE at replacing him with would be Duncan who was in his prime and one of the top 5 or so players of all-time. Give Shaq Phil Jackson and a decent guard and your on that championship cruise. Your guaranteed releance with Shaq. You won't catch him missing the playoffs and getting owned in the first round for 3 consecutive years of his prime. :roll:

Dat clutch ft shooting!!!!!!!!

ROFL...in all honesty...that actually does show signs of mental weakness and real choking.

His ft shooting drops considerably in game 7's...

joeyjoejoe

08-20-2013, 09:32 AM

36, 15 on 60% or 20, 6 on 42% wow that's a tough one lmao

secund2nun

08-20-2013, 11:18 AM

Shaq was 5 times the player than 7th seed Kobe ever was. Kobe= myth who can't win a playoff series with prime Odom in all 3 chances he got.

And Kobe is a underwhelming finals performer while Shaq has elite finals.

Vienceslav

08-20-2013, 11:26 AM

Kobe= myth who can't win a playoff series with prime Odom in all 3 chances he got.

That's a thing now?
I though we were still on the Gasol4FMVP.:roll:

secund2nun

08-20-2013, 11:34 AM

That's a thing now?
I though we were still on the Gasol4FMVP.:roll:

Both are relevant. There are many facts that must continuously be brought up that expose the mythical creature named Kobe Bryant.

Unbiased_one

08-20-2013, 11:46 AM

I don't even understand this thread...shaq was a way better peak player and exhibits similar longevity. If you had to draft one for their career, you would take shaq every time. The only reason shaq isn't regarded more highly is that he was on a number of different teams. Kobe's been a laker his whole career. If he had had a similar career in Indiana no one would regard him as greater than shaq (or even close).

guy

08-20-2013, 12:33 PM

The only reason shaq isn't regarded more highly is that he was on a number of different teams.

And really, people make too much of a big deal out of that. When he left Orlando, it was the Magic that f*cked up, not Shaq. They lowballed him like sh*t, and even the fans disrespected him when they agreed with management.

When he left LA, sure he was at fault. But its arguable if he was even the most at fault. Either way, had he been drafted from LA instead of Orlando or had Orlando not royally **** up, he probably stays with the same team for at least the first 12 seasons of his career.

Then by the time he left Miami, who cares? He was basically a role player at that point. And then he was a role player in Phoenix, Cleveland, and Boston as well. He moved around his last few years in the league, because thats what role players do. Move around.

You can say Shaq was at least an elite/star player from 93-06, 14 seasons, not much different from Kobe who's been an elite/star player from 00-13, 14 seasons as well. Kobe stayed on the same team the whole time. Shaq left two of his teams during that timeframe, only one of which he should have any fault for.

rhythmic

08-20-2013, 12:41 PM

Because Kobe has a more impressive resume; winning wise & career accolades. No doubt, Shaquille had the greater peak and more impact on the court, I will never dispute that.

I have Kobe 7th & Shaquille 8th.
I feel as though Kobe is also a much better leader, much greater work ethic, far better closer & more determined to succeed. For those reason I'll take his career over Shaq's. If I had to pick between them two to start a team and had them for the next 10 years? Shaquille without hesitation.

KG215

08-20-2013, 12:45 PM

And really, people make too much of a big deal out of that. When he left Orlando, it was the Magic that f*cked up, not Shaq. They lowballed him like sh*t, and even the fans disrespected him when they agreed with management.

When he left LA, sure he was at fault. But its arguable if he was even the most at fault. Either way, had he been drafted from LA instead of Orlando or had Orlando not royally **** up, he probably stays with the same team for at least the first 12 seasons of his career.

Then by the time he left Miami, who cares? He was basically a role player at that point. And then he was a role player in Phoenix, Cleveland, and Boston as well. He moved around his last few years in the league, because thats what role players do. Move around.

You can say Shaq was at least an elite/star player from 93-06, 14 seasons, not much different from Kobe who's been an elite/star player from 00-13, 14 seasons as well. Kobe stayed on the same team the whole time. Shaq left two of his teams during that timeframe, only one of which he should have any fault for.
The only ones I see ever making a big deal about it are Kobe fans. Like you said, there are understandable explanations for why he left Orlando and LA and only people with an agenda use his last few years as a journeyman as a way to disparage his career.

Heavincent

08-20-2013, 12:50 PM

Dat clutch ft shooting!!!!!!!!

ROFL...in all honesty...that actually does show signs of mental weakness and real choking.

His ft shooting drops considerably in game 7's...

And you claim you're "objective" :oldlol:

Ridiculous.

tpols

08-20-2013, 01:01 PM

Because he has a better career resume.. has been a superstar on two totally different repeat teams, and has won more with less help.

Ill take prime Dwayne Wade and Penny Hardaway over Pau Gasol.

rhythmic

08-20-2013, 01:04 PM

Magic 32

08-20-2013, 01:05 PM

Maby we punish him for wasting his potential.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPifae15xyM

he took off most of 2001-2004

Prime years. Loved his muffins more than succes.

sc19

08-20-2013, 01:10 PM

3 Fmvps > 2.

daily

08-20-2013, 01:19 PM

The only ones I see ever making a big deal about it are Kobe fans. Like you said, there are understandable explanations for why he left Orlando and LA and only people with an agenda use his last few years as a journeyman as a way to disparage his career.

Shaq became a double edged sword for the Laker fanbase. As a fan you liked having him as a Laker but his off the court left a lot to be desired. His showing up in camp out of shape was a pisser, his waiting to get off season procedures done until the last minute compounded things. When he turned on ownership and Kobe he lost what little support from the fanbase he had.

Shaq was frustrating because in one hand you had Kobe doing everything he could to win on and off the court and then you had Shaq, one of the greatest to ever play who seemingly didn't give a crap and went out of his way to make sure everyone knew it.

I have Kobe over Shaq for those very reasons, two elite level talents. One has given his sole to be where he is today and continues to do so, one rode his physical talent as far as his sloppy work ethic would allow and then he checked out.

You can't put Shaq over many of the greats because he didn't want it bad enough, work ethic and longevity are part of what makes a player great and when you lack in those areas, when you have to throw out the last 8 years (44%) of a guys career because he was reduced to being a role player because he lacked work ethic you can't have him in the all time great discussion

PJR

08-20-2013, 01:19 PM

How can one player be above a another player, who was directly responsible for a significant portion of the team success achieved in first said player's career?

Shaq still has more Finals MVP to date than Kobe. And he's been retired for two seasons. :oldlol:

Shaq was CLEARLY better, and clearly more impactful when they played together? So where's the argument? Makes no sense.

Because he has a better career resume.. has been a superstar on two totally different repeat teams, and has won more with less help.

Ill take prime Dwayne Wade and Penny Hardaway over Pau Gasol.

I'll take 2009 or 2010 Pau Gasol over 2000 21 year old Kobe, though.

Heavincent

08-20-2013, 01:20 PM

I'll take 2009 or 2010 Pau Gasol over 2000 21 year old Kobe, though.

http://www.kenoki.com/images/antonio-banderas-ooo.gif

DMAVS41

08-20-2013, 01:27 PM

And you claim you're "objective" :oldlol:

Ridiculous.

I'm claiming that the "objective" decline in ft shooting in elimination games and game 7's is a sign that Kobe lets the pressure get to him on some level.

That is kind of odd to see that kind of dip in something like ft shooting.

Do you dispute that? Or are you going to continue to get raped in debates and then attack me and KG215?

:cheers:

PJR

08-20-2013, 01:30 PM

http://www.kenoki.com/images/antonio-banderas-ooo.gif

21pg
4.4 rpg
4.5 apg
44% shooting
19 PER

vs

18ppg
10.8 rpg
2.0 bpg
58% shooting
21.9 PER

:confusedshrug:

Heavincent

08-20-2013, 01:30 PM

I'm claiming that the "objective" decline in ft shooting in elimination games and game 7's is a sign that Kobe lets the pressure get to him on some level.

That is kind of odd to see that kind of dip in something like ft shooting.

Do you dispute that? Or are you going to continue to get raped in debates and then attack me and KG215?

:cheers:

I don't have a problem with KG215. But I think it's funny how you claim to be objective and unbiased, yet claim that Kobe is mentally weak and chokes under a pressure, which is obviously ridiculous.

The % maybe dropped, but I can't remember him ever missing a big FT.

DMAVS41

08-20-2013, 01:32 PM

I don't have a problem with KG215. But I think it's funny how you claim to be objective and unbiased, yet claim that Kobe is mentally weak and chokes under a pressure, which is obviously ridiculous.

The % maybe dropped, but I can't remember him ever missing a big FT.

I actually never claimed that. I said it was a sign of it. Which I think it is.

Do you dispute that? What reasons can you offer for a player seeing such a large drop in ft shooting in games with no margin of error?

daily

08-20-2013, 01:35 PM

I'm claiming that the "objective" decline in ft shooting in elimination games and game 7's is a sign that Kobe lets the pressure get to him on some level.

That is kind of odd to see that kind of dip in something like ft shooting.

Do you dispute that? Or are you going to continue to get raped in debates and then attack me and KG215?

:cheers:

Or maybe it's a sign that after an 82 game season and 20+ playoff games usually playing abnormal amounts of minutes throughout those playoffs his legs are shot.

Nah couldn't be anything like that, that would be unheard of for an NBA player to actually be worn down in what's usually the most physical games of a very very long season

Heavincent

08-20-2013, 01:36 PM

I actually never claimed that. I said it was a sign of it. Which I think it is.

Do you dispute that? What reasons can you offer for a player seeing such a large drop in ft shooting in games with no margin of error?

Name me one instance in which Kobe missed a big FT down the stretch that cost his team the game.

Ray Allen shot like 70% from the line in the 2012 playoffs. Must be a choker...

Magic 32

08-20-2013, 01:38 PM

I'll take 2009 or 2010 Pau Gasol over 2000 21 year old Kobe, though.

You better prey your team has home court advantage.

http://oi39.tinypic.com/biw60o.jpg
http://oi42.tinypic.com/2eqgyer.jpg

http://oi40.tinypic.com/dmbo2a.jpg

And that's without being healthy for the last round.

DMAVS41

08-20-2013, 01:43 PM

Name me one instance in which Kobe missed a big FT down the stretch that cost his team the game.

Ray Allen shot like 70% from the line in the 2012 playoffs. Must be a choker...

So free throws aren't big in game 7's? Or elimination games?

So he was missing on purpose...or it's just a coincidence that Kobe misses more free throws in win or go home games.

I never called him a choker. I said it was a sign of the pressure getting to him. Which it is.

Heavincent

08-20-2013, 02:02 PM

So free throws aren't big in game 7's? Or elimination games?

So he was missing on purpose...or it's just a coincidence that Kobe misses more free throws in win or go home games.

I never called him a choker. I said it was a sign of the pressure getting to him. Which it is.

Or:

Or maybe it's a sign that after an 82 game season and 20+ playoff games usually playing abnormal amounts of minutes throughout those playoffs his legs are shot.

Nah couldn't be anything like that, that would be unheard of for an NBA player to actually be worn down in what's usually the most physical games of a very very long season

Again, name me one instance in which Kobe's FT shooting cost them the game. On the other hand, I can think of countless instances of him hitting clutch FT's to seal the game in the playoffs.

Ray Allen shot 92% in the 2012 regular season, but only 71% in the playoffs...must have been the pressure getting to him, huh?

tpols

08-20-2013, 02:12 PM

How can one player be above a another player, who was directly responsible for a significant portion of the team success achieved in first said player's career?

Shaq still has more Finals MVP to date than Kobe. And he's been retired for two seasons. :oldlol:

Shaq was CLEARLY better, and clearly more impactful when they played together? So where's the argument? Makes no sense.

I'll take 2009 or 2010 Pau Gasol over 2000 21 year old Kobe, though.
But you sure as hell won't take him over 01 and 02 kobe. :oldlol:

The guy he needed to repeat...

branslowski

08-20-2013, 02:20 PM

Or:

Again, name me one instance in which Kobe's FT shooting cost them the game. On the other hand, I can think of countless instances of him hitting clutch FT's to seal the game in the playoffs.

Ray Allen shot 92% in the 2012 regular season, but only 71% in the playoffs...must have been the pressure getting to him, huh?

You know Kobe never cost us at the line....You also know Dmavs won't miss any chance to down Kobe...It is wat it is....Even Jordan had a crazed hater writing books about him, and Bron had a sports analyst dedicated to nitpicking negatives (Skip Bayless):oldlol:

DMAVS41

08-20-2013, 02:21 PM

Or:

Again, name me one instance in which Kobe's FT shooting cost them the game. On the other hand, I can think of countless instances of him hitting clutch FT's to seal the game in the playoffs.

Ray Allen shot 92% in the 2012 regular season, but only 71% in the playoffs...must have been the pressure getting to him, huh?

We are already comparing Kobe in the playoffs to his elimination game play...so it's a false equivalent. Kobe shoots 82% for his career in the playoffs.

In elimination games and game 7's...he shoots considerably worse.

You can't use "tired legs" as the excuse when Kobe has shot 82% with tired legs his entire career.

Heavincent

08-20-2013, 02:25 PM

We are already comparing Kobe in the playoffs to his elimination game play...so it's a false equivalent. Kobe shoots 82% for his career in the playoffs.

In elimination games and game 7's...he shoots considerably worse.

You can't use "tired legs" as the excuse when Kobe has shot 82% with tired legs his entire career.

First of all, much smaller sample size. It doesn't take much to drop 10% when the sample size is so much smaller.

And again, you've yet to name me a time when Kobe's FT shooting cost them the game...because it never happened.

DMAVS41

08-20-2013, 02:27 PM

First of all, much smaller sample size. It doesn't take much to drop 10% when the sample size is so much smaller.

And again, you've yet to name me a time when Kobe's FT shooting cost them the game...because it never happened.

What do you mean...it never happened? He saw a 12% drop in free throws in game 7's. Are those not important?

Or how about elimination games? In which he has a losing record...those aren't important?

You make no sense. I never said it's a big enough sample size to call Kobe a choker or even indicate much.

I said it's a sign that something gets to him...just seems odd to see a noticeable drop in something like ft shooting.

Heavincent

08-20-2013, 02:35 PM

What do you mean...it never happened? He saw a 12% drop in free throws in game 7's. Are those not important?

Or how about elimination games? In which he has a losing record...those aren't important?

You make no sense. I never said it's a big enough sample size to call Kobe a choker or even indicate much.

I said it's a sign that something gets to him...just seems odd to see a noticeable drop in something like ft shooting.

It never cost them the game, such as Manu Ginobli in this year's finals, as an example.

When you consider the dramatically smaller sample size, a 12% drop really isn't that significant. And it doesn't indicate anything really. It's just him...simply missing a FT. Why does it have to be more complicated than that? You're really reaching here.

DMAVS41

08-20-2013, 02:38 PM

It never cost them the game, such as Manu Ginobli in this year's finals, as an example.

When you consider the dramatically smaller sample size, a 12% drop really isn't that significant. And it doesn't indicate anything really. It's just him...simply missing a FT. Why does it have to be more complicated than that? You're really reaching here.

I agree.

It's Kobe missing free throws at a higher rate in games in which if he loses...he's out of the playoffs.

Infer what you want from that. I never stated it means Kobe is not clutch. I think it does indicate something. You don't. I don't really care to debate it.

ILLsmak

08-20-2013, 02:41 PM

36 15 3 3 on 60%. I watched all of that shit and looking at those numbers it's like WATTTT.

-Smak

TonyMontana

08-20-2013, 02:54 PM

Because he has a better career resume.. has been a superstar on two totally different repeat teams, and has won more with less help.

Ill take prime Dwayne Wade and Penny Hardaway over Pau Gasol.

And I'll take Prime Shaq(who Kobe won the majority of his rings with) over any all-star guard. :roll:

Or maybe it's a sign that after an 82 game season and 20+ playoff games usually playing abnormal amounts of minutes throughout those playoffs his legs are shot.

Nah couldn't be anything like that, that would be unheard of for an NBA player to actually be worn down in what's usually the most physical games of a very very long season

It is not just the FT percentages. All of his stats suffer. His line is absolutely pathetic when his back is against the wall. Find me another all-time great whos that pathetic when its a do or die game.

Can anyone recall a moment Kobe kept the Lakers season alive and dominated, willing them back to victory? Games like LeBrons Game 6 vs Boston? LeBrons Game 6 and 7 vs the Spurs? :roll:

All Kobes got is quitting vs the Suns, the Mavs, the Pistons when things don't go his way. Boo ****ing hoo. :oldlol:

Theres a reason Kobe has no playoff moments despite how popular he is. It's because all of his success comes when his team is stacked and the games are one-sided. Give his team a weak frontcourt to overcome or an oppenent with equal talent and Kobe crumbles. :oldlol:

Magic 32

08-20-2013, 03:00 PM

Can anyone recall a moment Kobe kept the Lakers season alive and dominated, willing them back to victory? Games like LeBrons Game 6 vs Boston? LeBrons Game 6 and 7 vs the Spurs? :roll:

No, because Kobe never allowed his team to be in that position in the first place.

Lebron's 4th qtr against the Spurs was only needed because he laid an egg in the first 3.

Theres a reason Kobe has no playoff moments despite how popular he is. It's because all of his success comes when his team is stacked

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tZMt700tetE/TnbGgfD0gXI/AAAAAAAAABU/_31gkyI58ww/s1600/Vomit.gif

TonyMontana

08-20-2013, 03:02 PM

No

Alright good, didn't think so.

:roll:

DMAVS41

08-20-2013, 03:07 PM

No, because Kobe never allowed his team to be in that position in the first place.

Lebron's 4th qtr against the Spurs was only needed because he laid an egg in the first 3.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tZMt700tetE/TnbGgfD0gXI/AAAAAAAAABU/_31gkyI58ww/s1600/Vomit.gif

Wait...so game 4 of the NBA finals didn't happen?

That wasn't a big game? The Lakers weren't down 2-1 going into that game? The Lakers didn't blow a 24 point lead at home with Kobe going 6 of 19?

See...this is the point a lot of us non Kobe stans are trying to make. If Kobe was as good as you all claim..and as dominant...what the **** is he doing in that game? It's the biggest game of the year...if they lose...the series is essentially over. And they are up 24...and Kobe can't do anything to help stop the collapse?

And you want to turn around and be able to say Kobe was by far the best player in 08....and so forth? See our point?

And see why you can't claim Kobe never allowed his team to get down like that? That game and series really should have been a defining moment for Kobe...even if the Lakers still lost...Kobe should have been able to do more...and that game combined with losing by 40 in a do or die game 6 is just awful.

Magic 32

08-20-2013, 03:08 PM

Alright good, didn't think so.

:roll:

I can live with these ones....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICpiCZxB_0Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ug-5iOVGHs0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfYGBHi7ya0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Lp5aQq4zI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPzC-eAQ_Ck

So could MJ.

Magic 32

08-20-2013, 03:11 PM

Wait...so game 4 of the NBA finals didn't happen?

That wasn't a big game? The Lakers weren't down 2-1 going into that game? The Lakers didn't blow a 24 point lead at home with Kobe going 6 of 19?

See...this is the point a lot of us non Kobe stans are trying to make. If Kobe was as good as you all claim..and as dominant...what the **** is he doing in that game? It's the biggest game of the year...if they lose...the series is essentially over. And they are up 24...and Kobe can't do anything to help stop the collapse?

And you want to turn around and be able to say Kobe was by far the best player in 08....and so forth? See our point?

And see why you can't claim Kobe never allowed his team to get down like that? That game and series really should have been a defining moment for Kobe...even if the Lakers still lost...Kobe should have been able to do more...and that game combined with losing by 40 in a do or die game 6 is just awful.

Wait, are we talking about championship runs or what??

You want 3 straight GREAT games in a row against the 08 Celtics?

He kept them alive in game 2, 3 and 5.

DMAVS41

08-20-2013, 03:16 PM

Wait, are we talking about championship runs or what??

You want 3 straight GREAT games in a row against the 08 Celtics?

He kept them alive in game 2, 3 and 5.

It it's only championship runs...the Lakers were tied with OKC at 2-2 in 2010.

Kobe in game 5? 13/3/7 on 4/9 shooting. Lakers won by 24. That is called having a huge margin of error. And again...I'm not arguing this is specific to Kobe. I'm saying that this nonsense that Kobe never let his team get in trouble is absurd. He, just like every player, had times and games of playing like ass and still winning. And that is in response to the whole "Lakers can't do anything without Kobe" argument that is always spewed on here.

And stop bringing up Lebron. Lebron has been blessed with loaded teams the last 3 years. That doesn't change anything in the past.

I'm not arguing that Lebron hasn't had great teams...so I don't get the point.

Magic 32

08-20-2013, 03:22 PM

It it's only championship runs...the Lakers were tied with OKC at 2-2 in 2010.

Kobe in game 5? 13/3/7 on 4/9 shooting. Lakers won by 24. That is called having a huge margin of error.

2-2 with home court is "up against the wall" ??

Lakers had a perminant 10+ lead after 10 min.

Kobe basically rested knee and played a quit 32 min.

Then he went out and killed the OKC in game 6

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8VxT07X6Mo

TonyMontana

08-20-2013, 03:25 PM

Lakers Records during Shaq/Kobe Years

With Shaq AND Kobe: 261-101(.721)
With Shaq NO Kobe: 32-10(.762)
NO Shaq WITH KOBE: 23-25(.479)
With neither playing: 2-6(.250)

below.500 ball without Shaq, team is elite with or without Kobe.

Yeah lets act like their impacts were comparable at the slighest. :oldlol:

Magic 32

08-20-2013, 03:28 PM

DMAVS41

08-20-2013, 03:29 PM

2-2 with home court is "up against the wall" ??

Lakers had a perminant 10+ lead after 10 min.

Kobe basically rested knee and played a quit 32 min.

Then he went out and killed the OKC in game 6

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8VxT07X6Mo

Did I say "up against the wall"

Stop speaking for me. I said it was a big game...and Kobe had very little to no impact. No different than any other player...hell, the Mavs won game 6 against the Heat in the 11 finals with Dirk playing horribly in the first half and being a negative.

It happens.

That is your problem. You can't ever admit that Kobe, at times, played poorly and still won. And had a pretty large margin of error in 09 and 10 at times. Compare Kobe's margin of error in 09 to Lebron's or Dirk's for example.

Do you actually think they are the same?

For example. If Dirk was hurt in the Portland series in 2011...I just don't think the Mavs can win. It's called having a smaller margin of error. So think about that.

Magic 32

08-20-2013, 03:36 PM

Did I say "up against the wall"

Stop speaking for me. I said it was a big game...and Kobe had very little to no impact. No different than any other player...hell, the Mavs won game 6 against the Heat in the 11 finals with Dirk playing horribly in the first half and being a negative.

It happens.

That is your problem. You can't ever admit that Kobe, at times, played poorly and still won.

Stop speaking for me.

Look at the posts and tell me when the subject changed from "up against the wall" performances during championship runs, to whatever you are talking about.

Of course Kobe won games where he didn't play well.

305Baller

08-20-2013, 03:40 PM

Shaq>Kobe. Im 70 percent sure.

TheMarkMadsen

08-20-2013, 03:43 PM

Alright good, didn't think so.

:roll:

2000 WCF game 7.

2001 WCF enore series.

Know your history son

Inb4 "Shaq 2000 WCF game 7"

Fudge

08-20-2013, 03:49 PM

TonyMontana's argument in a nutshell:

:roll: :roll:

That's all I see.

gts

08-20-2013, 03:58 PM

In a career that has spanned more than 17 years, 1,459 games, over 54,000 minutes it's incredibly entertaining to see Kobe's detractors reduced to breaking down his career to a few missed FTs here and there or a few bad stretches. :lol

what a bunch of loonballs, keep it up. You don't have a clue of what you're talking about but you do have a comedy value that can't be replicated.

zoom17

08-20-2013, 04:13 PM

Most people have shaq rated higher than kobe anyway sensible fans do.

Ca$H

08-20-2013, 05:04 PM

Most people have shaq rated higher than kobe anyway sensible fans do.

I'll just listen to professional journalists that get paid for their opinions not random fans.

Tking714

08-20-2013, 05:18 PM

No clue. In an all time draft there's no one that Id take over Shaq. Except MAYBE Jordan

zoom17

08-20-2013, 05:21 PM

I'll just listen to professional journalists that get paid for their opinions not random fans.

:facepalm Its the truth most people have shaq rated higher than ballhog kobe.

SwayDizzle

08-20-2013, 05:25 PM

Damn straight Kobes is higher ranked than Shaq.

Let's just keep things very basic.

If Shaq himself says Kobe is better than him, then for pete's sake, he's better. And Shaq said this during his own prime.

You guys fail to see how special of a player Kobe is because you hate his character. His bball skills are unparalleled. Do you even comprehend the fact that Kobe is one of the best post-up players (if not the best) in the league right now? A perimeter superstar is also the best at posting up. loooool at all these weak ass centers these days.

zoom17

08-20-2013, 05:37 PM

http://www.kenoki.com/images/antonio-banderas-ooo.gif

where is this from?

Magic 32

08-20-2013, 05:38 PM

where is this from?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daDhTiGc0fw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sRuyeorO9CQ

Electric Slide

08-20-2013, 05:38 PM

where is this from?
http://www.kenoki.com/images/antonio-banderas-ooo.gif

Ca$H

08-20-2013, 07:07 PM

:facepalm Its the truth most people have shaq rated higher than ballhog kobe.

Shaq is a better basketball player than Kobe but Kobe has had the better career. The cumulative data doesn't support Shaq having the better career.

Stringer Bell

12-27-2013, 04:47 PM

People often underplay Shaq's longevity (and Hakeem also).

Shaq was a huge impact player as soon as he entered the league. The next year, he was 2nd in scoring and 1st in FG%. His last season as an elite player was the 04-05 season when he finished 2nd in MVP voting (although he did manage to make All-NBA first team the next year).

1992/93 to 2004/05, that's 13 seasons as an elite player.

Kobe's real breakout year was 2000/01. He was still an excellent player in 99/00, so that's be nice and count that year.

1999/00 to 2012/13. 14 seasons. Wow, big difference.

Shaq is greater all-time and was the better player at his peak. But I agree in Kobe having a much stronger work ethic, which is why I respect him more.
Shaq would take the regular season to get in shape. Not saying he didn't work on free-throws, but he actually said in his book "it's a good thing I have one weakness, FT shooting, otherwise I'd be so unstoppable that my ego would be out of control", or something like that.

Apparently, pick-and-roll defense was not a weakness of his either.