LeBron says Dr J is TOP 3 All Time

[Trollsmasher]

MJ
Dr J
Bird

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/lebron-james-changed-man-the-decision-miami-heat-fox-sports-live-interview-081913

I guess I will have to put Dr J above Kobe then:confusedshrug:

[chazzy]

Lol

[LosBulls]

CORRECTION


Posts: 1,988

[fpliii]

MJ
Dr J
Bird

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/lebron-james-changed-man-the-decision-miami-heat-fox-sports-live-interview-081913

I guess I will have to put Dr J above Kobe then:confusedshrug:

He put Magic at 4 fwiw. Everybody is entitled to his own opinion (and declining to have a top 3, 4, 10, or whatever is an option as well).

[Trollsmasher]

9. LeBron
10. Hakeem
11. Oscar
12. Dr J
13. Kobe

Damn, Kobe's stock is failing fast. Two months ago he was still a TOP 10 player, now he is on his way out of the TOP 15:confusedshrug:

[Electric Slide]

Players opinions on this doesn't matter. They're being paid and watched for their physical attributes. Nobody cares about what they think although Lebron is one of the smarter players in the NBA. I don't think he has that much background or knowledge on the history of the game though.

[305Baller]

LeBron probably saw the same Dr. J documentary I did not long ago.

Great stuff :rockon:

[TheMilkyBarKid]

I do feel dr j is underrated due to a significant portion of his career being in the ABA, however top 3 is a stretch

[PickernRoller]

Not bad. I have Dr. J at 13 and Lebron at 15-16.

[poido123]

Kobe's peak is top 8 all time at the least.

When looking at a players peak together with their resume, it's hard to leave Kobe Bryant out of the top 10, irrespective of how much you dislike him.

[poido123]

MJ
Dr J
Bird

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/lebron-james-changed-man-the-decision-miami-heat-fox-sports-live-interview-081913

I guess I will have to put Dr J above Kobe then:confusedshrug:


Good to know the best player in the game, lacks knowledge of the history of the game...

Dr J should not be in anyones top 10 let alone top 3 :lol:

[Kiddlovesnets]

9. LeBron
10. Hakeem
11. Oscar
12. Dr J
13. Kobe

Damn, Kobe's stock is failing fast. Two months ago he was still a TOP 10 player, now he is on his way out of the TOP 15:confusedshrug:

Wow you had Kobe at 13th too, just like I always do.
:eek:

[pauk]

Dont know what criteria he went after if its his favorite players of all time or if its his opinion on most talented/skilled players of all time or a combination of both.... but in terms of accolades that top 3 doesnt make sense, except for MJ ofcourse...

[SamuraiSWISH]

Meh, opinions.

If it were up to me, my personal top five would be: MJ, LeBron, Bird, Kobe, Shaq

No agendas. Kobe mimicked MJ to greatness, believes him to be GOAT. LeBron idolized MJ, he inspired him to greatness. Bird at his peak was better than Magic, shame his prime and career got cut short due to injury. And Kobe hates Shaq and would never give him his props for basically being a better version of Wilt in the modern era.

Meaning he was, even if egotistical and childish, was a winner when he tried and could be a great teammate unlike Wilt.

All players put stamps on both sides of the ball, too. Bird, an often underrated defender and great rebounder. Made everyone better, like Magic, without the ball constantly in his hand ... and was obviously a superior scorer if needed.

My white boy Jerry West, personally from everything I've gathered would be an honorable mention along with Magic. Both just missing the top five.

MJ, Shaq, LeBron, Bird, Kobe

Then: Hakeem, West, and Magic

These guys to me are the greatest collection of individual talents. Everything I've read, studied. The most interesting group, too.

[plowking]

Kobe's peak is top 8 all time at the least.

When looking at a players peak together with their resume, it's hard to leave Kobe Bryant out of the top 10, irrespective of how much you dislike him.

Hell no. :oldlol:

I can list 8 right now off the bat that are better, and comfortably for that matter.
Bird, MJ, Kareem, Wilt, Lebron, Shaq, Hakeem and Russell.

[Rolando]

Lebron's a small forward so it is understandable that he looks up to guys who have played the same position in the past. His list makes sense from that perspective. With the exception of MJ, the rest are guys who are about his size and roughly play his position, Magic included.

Props to Lebron!:applause:

[talkingconch]

MJ, Kareem, Dr J?

I guess Lebron gets bumped down more. @ 14 or 15 now

[BoutPractice]

Notice how he's not listing any bigmen. In fact he's only listing players that he's been directly compared to. He might be creating a narrative for himself in which he's a combination of these 4 players.

I will say that Dr. J is underrated. He's often associated with his 80s, when really he was arguably the best player of the 70s not named Jabbar, and certainly the best non bigman of the 70s, the most underappreciated era of the NBA.

If you combine his ABA and NBA resume, he's a 16 time All-Star, 4 time MVP, and 3 time champion. How many players in history have 4 MVPs and 3 championships or more? Off the top of my head, Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Dr. J. Mikan would've been on that list if they'd awarded MVPs at the time. So if awards were your main criterion for ranking players, Dr. J would have a reasonable case for top 5.

Not only that, but Dr. J led the ABA in scoring 3 years, had averages like 32/12/4 and 29/11/5 with 2.5 steals AND blocks, + 50% shooting. He was top 10, in fact almost top 5, in scoring, rebounding and assists, steals, blocks, TS% and EFG%... all at the same time, for several years. Obviously he was also an advanced stats monster.

His playoff stats were even more ridiculous: in his first season he averaged 33 points, 20 rebounds and 6.5 assists (!) over 11 games. In his fifth season, 35 points, 12 rebounds and 5 assists, with 2 steals and blocks as well as 53% shooting.

We've all seen how aesthetically-pleasing his game was, and how athletic he was... what gets lost is his incredible dominance as an all-around player. You can watch his performance in the 77 Finals, or even in some games against Larry Bird, to see just how good he was.

But beyond Julius Erving, LeBron's top 3 reminds us that the "consensus top 10" of bball geeks on forum such as this one really aren't a "consensus"... at all. For instance, if you ask the media, former players, or specialists, Hakeem is almost never in the top 10. Oscar Robertson almost always is, sometimes in the top 5. You'll see names like Dr. J and Jerry West far more often. Some will mention Mikan. The point is, there are many more potential ways to rank players than some here think. And it's not just players, it would be the same with say, a list of the great composers, writers, or generals in history.

[poido123]

Hell no. :oldlol:

I can list 8 right now off the bat that are better, and comfortably for that matter.
Bird, MJ, Kareem, Wilt, Lebron, Shaq, Hakeem and Russell.

Peak WITH resume is superior to Hakeem, I'd give peak Hakeem and the way he won his title a slight edge, but then you look at the whole body of work and Kobe gets the overall edge.

1 ring for Hakeem separates him from Kobe but not the only reason.

[Mr. Jabbar]

we all know lebron is an uneducated individual. noteworthy are the stories of him asking for already-cut spaghetti in a Italian restaurant, and overcooked meat on a prestigious steak one..

it doesn't surprise me one bit he doesn't know shit about the very sport he plays

[Soundwave]

dp

[Soundwave]

He said Jordan without hesitation but then took a while to come up with the second name.

I think Dr. J is underrated on this board, but that's probably ranking him a bit too high. I think LeBron would tend to favor wing players though and Dr. J certainly was a revolutionary player from the POV of advancing the athletic wing player prototype.

If Jordan is your no.1 by far, then there is some logic to Dr. J being no.2, because he paved the way for MJ in some ways.

Bird at 3 is a good choice IMO.

[#number6ix#]

Different strokes for different folks... Maybe he focused on skill instead of accolades... I never seen dr.j ball outside of a few games so I can't really speak on his game

[Soundwave]

Probably not coincidentally the two jersey numbers that LeBron has worn in the NBA are no.23 and no.6 (Dr. J's number).

[plowking]

we all know lebron is an uneducated individual. noteworthy are the stories of him asking for already-cut spaghetti in a Italian restaurant, and overcooked meat on a prestigious steak one..

it doesn't surprise me one bit he doesn't know shit about the very sport he plays

This.

[BoutPractice]

Different strokes for different folks... Maybe he focused on skill instead of accolades... I never seen dr.j ball outside of a few games so I can't really speak on his game
Actually it might be the opposite. I just showed that Dr. J has top 5 worthy accolades if you factor in the ABA: 4 MVPs and 3 championships. He was also individually dominant and the clear cut best player in his league, but it's the accolades that first make him stand out.

The NBA we have today is the product of a merger between the ABA and the NBA... The Spurs, for example, were an ABA team and yet are seen as one of the greatest NBA franchises of all time. Ever since the merger, when we talk about NBA history, we have to include the ABA as well. That's why players like Artis Gilmore should have been in the HOF sooner.

[Psileas]

Right, Dr.J is top-3, yet LeBron wanted to change his number to 6 in order to create his own legacy. The value of such opinions...:facepalm

[jlip]

It seems as if the litmus test for greatness for basketball personalities (i.e. coaches and players) is often different from that of fans. While as fans we go back and look at career accomplishments (i.e. how many MVPs, championships, "was he 'the man' for those championships", all star selections, stats titles, etc.), basketball personalities tend to look at the greats and judge by perceived talent and performance. The fact that legend X has 1 more MVP and 2 more rings than legend Y doesn't mean as much to them in the debate.


I've said this before and I will keep saying it. Basketball personalities (i.e. coaches and players) do not determine greatness the way fans do. As fans we go to b-ball reference and see how many titles, "rings as the man", MVPs, all defensive teams, statistical titles, and other accolades a player has and then assess greatness. Basketball personalities don't do that. They don't say, "Well player X has 2 more "titles as 'the man' and one more MVP than player Y. So player X is better." That's just not what they do. Obviously a player has to have had an impressive career, but b-ball personalities weigh heavily their perceptions of players' "on the court" display of talent and abilities probably more than a couple of additional notches added to the players' resume".

..

[Dr.J4ever]

Notice how he's not listing any bigmen. In fact he's only listing players that he's been directly compared to. He might be creating a narrative for himself in which he's a combination of these 4 players.

I will say that Dr. J is underrated. He's often associated with his 80s, when really he was arguably the best player of the 70s not named Jabbar, and certainly the best non bigman of the 70s, the most underappreciated era of the NBA.

If you combine his ABA and NBA resume, he's a 16 time All-Star, 4 time MVP, and 3 time champion. How many players in history have 4 MVPs and 3 championships or more? Off the top of my head, Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Dr. J. Mikan would've been on that list if they'd awarded MVPs at the time. So if awards were your main criterion for ranking players, Dr. J would have a reasonable case for top 5.

Not only that, but Dr. J led the ABA in scoring 3 years, had averages like 32/12/4 and 29/11/5 with 2.5 steals AND blocks, + 50% shooting. He was top 10, in fact almost top 5, in scoring, rebounding and assists, steals, blocks, TS% and EFG%... all at the same time, for several years. Obviously he was also an advanced stats monster.

His playoff stats were even more ridiculous: in his first season he averaged 33 points, 20 rebounds and 6.5 assists (!) over 11 games. In his fifth season, 35 points, 12 rebounds and 5 assists, with 2 steals and blocks as well as 53% shooting.

We've all seen how aesthetically-pleasing his game was, and how athletic he was... what gets lost is his incredible dominance as an all-around player. You can watch his performance in the 77 Finals, or even in some games against Larry Bird, to see just how good he was.

But beyond Julius Erving, LeBron's top 3 reminds us that the "consensus top 10" of bball geeks on forum such as this one really aren't a "consensus"... at all. For instance, if you ask the media, former players, or specialists, Hakeem is almost never in the top 10. Oscar Robertson almost always is, sometimes in the top 5. You'll see names like Dr. J and Jerry West far more often. Some will mention Mikan. The point is, there are many more potential ways to rank players than some here think. And it's not just players, it would be the same with say, a list of the great composers, writers, or generals in history.
Thank you. Couldn't have put it better myself. For those who believe in nba superiority over the aba, i have one question: who would win ? The 1976 aba champ nets or the nba champ celtics?

[305Baller]

No one really knows how good J's prime was except a select few who saw the games in person since his prime was not televised.

The ABA seemed like an AND-1 type league, maybe there was no defense played but maybe Dr. J really was that good also.

Dr. J's play in the NBA warrants the notion that the overall game in the ABA was the latter and not the former.

[INDI]

MJ
Dr J
Bird

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/lebron-james-changed-man-the-decision-miami-heat-fox-sports-live-interview-081913

I guess I will have to put Dr J above Kobe then:confusedshrug:

Glad to know that bron knows he isnt the best small forward ever

[The Choken One]

Not surprised...giving how intelligent LeBron is.

[bizil]

I feel to this day that when u throw in his ABA career that Doc is STILL THE GOAT SF. If u are talking strictly NBA then i think its Bird and Bron as the top two, with Bron about to snatch #1 from Bird. Gotta realize ABA was absorbed by the NBA of course. And the NBA used many of the ABA concepts to globalize the game. But in terms of the GOAT basketball players of all time, I got Doc in my top 7-8 to ever do it. It's a shame the ABA careers actually penalize the overall rankings of the greats to a degree. If I had to pick one athlete PERIOD to be the ambassador for a league, it would be Dr.J. He had it all from his talent, demeanor, and exciting style of play.

[kennethgriffin]

lebron isn't a very good student of the game.


like when he picked #6 and said the nba should retire #23

all the while not even knowing bill russell wore number 6

then saying he would never pick russell over jordan because his 11 rings are no better than any 1 of jud buechler's


dr j even wore #6. if he thinks hes the 2nd best player ever instead of jordan. why'd he pick that number than? maybe cause all he saw was some ABA dunking highlights when he wore #32 LOL


dr J is at best top 14-15 all time

[316MIA]

:lol I cracked up at him putting not only Bird over Magic but Dr. J after Jordon??? Wtf :lol

[SHAQisGOAT]

:lol I cracked up at him putting not only Bird over Magic but Dr. J after Jordon??? Wtf :lol

Bird > Magic

[fpliii]

dr J is at best top 14-15 all time

:facepalm

http://remembertheaba.com/ABAStatistics/ABANBAExhibitions.html

So I'm guessing you're docking Kareem for playing in a split league, that lost to the ABA in their h2h contests, before the 73-74, 74-75, and 75-76 seasons?

[steve]

No one really knows how good J's prime was except a select few who saw the games in person since his prime was not televised.

The ABA seemed like an AND-1 type league, maybe there was no defense played but maybe Dr. J really was that good also.

Dr. J's play in the NBA warrants the question that the overall game in the ABA was the latter and not the former.

The no defense thing was more perception than anything else. The ABA was more of a running/wide open league and shots were taken quicker in the shot clock than they were in the NBA at the time. But you still had excellent defenders both inside and on the wing in the ABA (especially in the second half of the league's existence) who impacted the game. The best example is a player like Artis Gilmore whose defensive impact didn't change at all once he switched from the ABA to the NBA.

[Spaulding]

Wow so many people so mad about a persons top 3.

[305Baller]

http://www.trbimg.com/img-52155b33/turbine/sfl-miami-heat-julius-erving-s082113-001/574/574x525

[305Baller]

Magic responds:

"Lebron is entitled to his opinion, but I still think that he and I have a similar game and that's why I LOVE to watch him play!"

That quickly was followed by, "NBA Championship rings are all that matter; Jordan 6, Me 5, Bird 3, LeBron 2 and Dr. J 1."

[SamuraiSWISH]

Magic responds:

"Lebron is entitled to his opinion, but I still think that he and I have a similar game and that's why I LOVE to watch him play!"

That quickly was followed by, "NBA Championship rings are all that matter; Jordan 6, Me 5, Bird 3, LeBron 2 and Dr. J 1."
No, what matters is rings within context. Were you the BEST player on said team when winning that championship?

Otherwise, why no mention of Kobe ... he matches Magic's 5? Wade matches Bird's 3?

Magic wasn't the best player on all his team's championships, neither was Kareem, neither was Kobe, neither was Wade, neither was Shaq, neither was Russell.

[305Baller]

Tell it to Magic.

[TheReal Kendall]

No, what matters is rings within context. Were you the BEST player on said team when winning that championship?

Otherwise, why no mention of Kobe ... he matches Magic's 5? Wade matches Bird's 3?

Magic wasn't the best player on all his team's championships, neither was Kareem, neither was Kobe, neither was Wade, neither was Shaq, neither was Russell.

True.

Going by what Magic said then Russell is the GOAT

[SamuraiSWISH]

True.

Going by what Magic said then Russell is the GOAT
Not really, because for many of those rings he was like the 3rd, 4th, even 5th best contributor on the other side of the ball.

[Kblaze8855]

Bill not being the leading scorer does not mean anyone else was the best player and I suspect whoever you claim was better than him would agree. John Havlicek sure as hell would and hes the only one with a case as Bill got older. And he said he missed Bill more on offense than defense.

There is no question who the key player was on all 11 of those rings. None. At all. And by the time he had fallen off enough to even ask the question Sam Jones had slowed as well and Bill was player/coach. You are a teams best player AND the coach there is no question whos team it is.

And nobody on the celtics ever finished ahead of him im MVP voting after his rookie season when he missed half the year to play in the olympics(In Australia...so the summer was in our winter).

Full season Bill...nobody on his team ever finished ahead of him in MVP voting and it was the players voting.

Anyone but Bill being that teams #1 is just 40 years later talk. Its clear who the players thought. He got more MVP voting points in his last season than anyone else on the Celtics got his entire post rookie career.

The league knew what it was.

[Noyze]

Ok, I like Dr. J too...

But there's no way in hell he's better then Kareem, Wilt, Tim Duncan, Magic, Hakeem & Shaq. You could make a debate for the ones I didn't mention but he's not even close to the ones listed above. I'm talking about "skill" not just accomplishments. Not even close.

[fpliii]

Not really, because for many of those rings he was like the 3rd, 4th, even 5th best contributor on the other side of the ball.

lol ironic when speaking about the Magic man. Also, offense != scoring.

[scm5]

Dr. J picked Kobe over Lebron and put Kobe in the top 5 all-time.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1663779-julius-erving-picks-spurs-over-heat-in-finals-says-hed-take-kobe-over-lebron

[Fresh Kid]

why he picked number 6 then?:lol what a bitch:oldlol:

[kennethgriffin]

http://i40.tinypic.com/358xr49.png

tired of the agenda moderators have against me

they delete every single one of my successful threads

i should have around 10k+ posts. but theyve deleted my entire history on here seemingly

they let kobe haters run wild. but anything regarding lebron or jordan not in a positive way is shut down

this place will be run into the ground pretty soon because jeff only hires lebron fans with agenda's

there is no parity here anymore. it was a good 5 years. ( for the most part )

so long

[Fresh Kid]

http://i40.tinypic.com/358xr49.png

tired of the agenda moderators have against me

they delete every single one of my successful threads

i should have around 10k+ posts. but theyve deleted my entire history on here seemingly

they let kobe haters run wild. but anything regarding lebron or jordan not in a positive way is shut down

this place will be run into the ground pretty soon because jeff only hires lebron fans with agenda's

there is no parity here anymore. it was a good 5 years. ( for the most part )

so long
say it aint so bro:cry:

[Pra]

Right, Dr.J is top-3, yet LeBron wanted to change his number to 6 in order to create his own legacy. The value of such opinions...:facepalm

Miami retired #23 boss. Didn't MJ Idolize Dr. J as a kid? Maybe Bron idolize's both of them(MJ/Dr. J), just like Kobe/Bron fans idolize their favorite players and have them ranked differently on their top 20 player list.

[Hoopz2332]

Interview of Lebron from highschool he mentions

Jordan
Magic
Bird

..and Dr J:cheers:

3:03

ESPN's LeBron James High School Video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGRZP35sTFI

[Psileas]

Miami retired #23 boss. Didn't MJ Idolize Dr. J as a kid? Maybe Bron idolize's both of them(MJ/Dr. J), just like Kobe/Bron fans idolize their favorite players and have them ranked differently on their top 20 player list.

LeBron had made his decision to change to #6 public before announcing his decision to play for Miami. But, whatever the reason for changing, how can you claim that you'll make your own legacy with a certan number that has already been worn by 2 of the game's GOAT legends? Especially if you have idolized one of them. Why didn't he follow young Kobe's example, by picking a number that hadn't already become legendary?

[longtime lurker]

Dr. J picked Kobe over Lebron and put Kobe in the top 5 all-time.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1663779-julius-erving-picks-spurs-over-heat-in-finals-says-hed-take-kobe-over-lebron

Ouch :oldlol: that's gotta hurt for Lebron fans.