Replace Lebron James with prime Larry Bird in 2011

[CavaliersFTW]

Larry freakin Bird with Wade and Bosh :bowdown: vs Dirk and Jason Terry (if you still think the Heat reach the Finals)

Are the Heat the same, better or worse with Larry Legend running the show?

[TheMarkMadsen]

Wouldn't even be fair.

Bird & Wade are a perfect combo

[scandisk_]

Wouldn't even be fair.

Bird & Wade are a perfect combo

BINGO!

[SHAQisGOAT]

Mavs would lose in 6 or less.

Larry's shooting, post-game, IQ, passing, rebounding, team D, physicality, hustle, clutchness, leadership, ability to play off-ball, style that could work with any star... Would be too much for Dallas really.

With DJ and Parish underperforming, Max getting old and doing the same, McHale not yet at his best and underperforming, Bird led them to a championship vs the showtime Lakers with Kareem, Magic, Worthy, McAdoo, Cooper, Scott, Rambis and Wilkes... Beating the Mavericks with Wade and Bosh by his side would be not much of a sweat.

BTW during the 1984 playoffs (and he was even better by 1986), with everyone underperforming, Bird led the team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, FG% and FT%, also 3rd in blocks and 3rd in 3P% shooting more 3s. And for the Finals it was pretty much the same. He was a forward, not even ball-dominant or the main ball-handler, with a USG% of 26 also.
Now think how ****ing crazy is that!

Got to say that Lebron already showed he could live up to the hype, we can't forget a series like that but let's not say he stopped there.

[asdf1990]

how exactly would that team get to the finals? would bird be able to shut down rose in crunch time while doing everything on the offensive end, while wade looked worse than a role player?

[TheReal Kendall]

how exactly would that team get to the finals? would bird be able to shut down rose in crunch time while doing everything on the offensive end, while wade looked worse than a role player?

Good question.

Lebron didn't shut Rose down though.

[bizil]

Bird in place of Bron in that particular series would have meant a ring for the Heat. Bird has one of the most complete scoring skillsets of all time. For players 6'9 and up, he likely has the best along with Durant. Bird is arguably the greatest shooter of all time, so the Mavs defensive scheme wouldn't' have had the same effect. The difference between Bird and Bron is Bird's shooting ability-scoring skillset opposed to Bron's defense, slashing, and freak athletic ability. In all other areas, the two are virtually neck and neck or a slight edge to one or the other. And yes Wade and Bird would complement each other perfectly on the offensive end. And both are great passers to boot. They can occupy totally different areas on the floor and dominate at will. Wade and Bron tend to have the same attack areas, even though they are both great passers who play great together as it is.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Murder she wrote for the Mavericks. If Shawn Marion had the baby nuts to call Bird a bitch, like he did LeBron ... Bird would give him 40 alone with his left hand and tell him about it play by play as it happens.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Miami Heat 2011 Champions, not that you need to replace him with anyone though, just take him out

[KOBE143]

Heat would be the champ easily.. Bird would avg 40hpg (HighfivePerGame) just like prime Scalabrine.. LeBron was the weakest link in that finals series.. You get rid or replace him with any player and the heat would probably beaten the Mavs.. Actually LeBron was not needed in the finals at all, dude was literally invisible in that series and worst, he choked all the time.. He's the main reason why the Heat lost..

[TheCorporation]

First off, Bird and company wouldn't have beaten Rose's Bulls.

Secondly, you forgot to mention Tyson Chandler, Jason Kidd, and JJ Barea.

[SamuraiSWISH]

First off, Bird and company wouldn't have beaten Rose's Bulls.
How so? He would've been the best player in the series.

[LongLiveTheKing]

Good question.

Lebron didn't shut Rose down though.
Lol 6%

[SamuraiSWISH]

Lol 6%
It's called shading Rose's rim penetration with multiple defenders. Bron just contested the only play Miami was giving him ... The jumper. Most overrated defensive job I've ever heard come from stans mouths.

[plowking]

It's called shading Rose's rim penetration with multiple defenders. Bron just contested the only play Miami was giving him ... The jumper. Most overrated defensive job I've ever heard come from stans mouths.

Of course. But when the Spurs do it to Lebron, its one player shutting him down. Makes sense. :oldlol:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Of course. But when the Spurs do it to Lebron, its one player shutting him down. Makes sense. :oldlol:
When did I claim LeBron got shut down? Bron's timid belief in his own abilities shut himself down. Difference being is Rose is 6' being asked to shoot over a 6'8, long armed, freak athlete, and stellar defender.

To Rose credit he had confidence and still tried to make stuff happen. And the Spurs were begging Bron to shoot with slow Boris Diaw sagging off him, who even on his best day is an average defender.

No difference in context here folks. Mind you Rose was 22, the same age Bron fans use as an excuse for his 2007 Finals performance.

[VIntageNOvel]

When did I claim LeBron got shut down? Bron's timid belief in his own abilities shut himself down. Difference being is Rose is 6' being asked to shoot over a 6'8, long armed, freak athlete, and stellar defender.

To Rose credit he had confidence and still tried to make stuff happen. And the Spurs were begging Bron to shoot with slow Boris Diaw sagging off him, who even on his best day is an average defender.

No difference in context here folks. Mind you Rose was 22, the same age Bron fans use as an excuse for his 2007 Finals performance.


ether :applause:

[retaxis]

real question is replacing 11 lebron with 12 and 13 lebron. easy win for the heats.

[Harison]

It wouldnt be fair to the competition. Bird would eat them alive.

[Nash]

Hmm, did Bird win every year with McHale, Parish and the rest of them guys?

[2010splash]

Overall the Heat are a worse team replacing LeBron with Bird. LeBron is the anchor that holds Miami's defense together. Without him, their defense completely falls apart, especially if you replace him with a crap ass defender like Bird.

And for anyone assuming that Bird automatically shines in the 2011 Finals, don't be so sure. Bird choked in the Finals twice during his prime years ('85, '87) and was actually a pretty underwhelming playoff performer for many seasons. I say they lose in either the ECF or the Finals. And absolutely no doubt that they lose in the Finals in 2012 and 2013 with Bird instead of LeBron (probably wouldn't even get that far).

Now the real question is how many titles would LeBron have if he was gift wrapped the most dominant front line in the league like Bird was within his first 2-3 seasons? Probably like 5 titles by now. And how many titles would Bird have leading Cavs teams with Boobie, Hughes, Sasha, Ilgauskas, Mo, Damon Jones and Marshall as his best teammates? He wouldn't even win 50 games once. :D

[Mr Exlax]

Larry freakin Bird with Wade and Bosh :bowdown: vs Dirk and Jason Terry (if you still think the Heat reach the Finals)

Are the Heat the same, better or worse with Larry Legend running the show?

I honestly don't think they make the Finals. Not a knock on Bird, but I don't know about his defense. I don't know if he could be his team's defensive anchor and even defending players bigger than him PFs and Centers at times. I don't know how great he was at being his team's PG. I know he can pass his ass off, but I didn't really watch him play in his prime so I don't know just how good he was at actually running plays for other people and all that. Like I've always said, LeBron does too much for a team. He masks too many holes. I'm not 100% certain that Larry Legend could do the same. Now I will say though if they did make it to the Finals, I could still see things playing out the same way. Dallas' defensive scheme was great. I would imagine that they could come up with some way to slow Larry down as well. I know he wouldn't be asked to guard Jason Terry at all so I wonder how different Miami would look on defense. Great topic OP.

[Haks]

Lmao Lebron is better than Bird than every facet of the game other than shooting and clutchness. With Bird the heat lose to the mavs in 4

[fpliii]

Lmao Lebron is better than Bird than every facet of the game other than shooting and clutchness. With Bird the heat lose to the mavs in 4

lol

[smush=mvp!]

http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt166/smushmvp/birdheat_zpsa70556d2.jpg (http://s608.photobucket.com/user/smushmvp/media/birdheat_zpsa70556d2.jpg.html)

Replaced.

[CavaliersFTW]

http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt166/smushmvp/birdheat_zpsa70556d2.jpg (http://s608.photobucket.com/user/smushmvp/media/birdheat_zpsa70556d2.jpg.html)

Replaced.
:bowdown:

That lineup would just be wicked, I think Bosh would be much more involved offensively with Bird as his front court partner too, Bird was highly effective in the post both passing and scoring, he'd let Bosh not only stretch like he currently does, but he'd also let him drive like he currently can't since that's Lebron and Wade's primary duties on the Heat. Bird could let both Wade and Bosh do some driving and shooting - he'd just plant himself on the high or low post with his great footwork and underrated lower body strength, see what the defense gives him and flick it to one of them rolling to the hoop or in rhythm for a shot and box out waiting for the rebound if needed. Offensively, they'd mesh better. Now, I do see some people questioning Bird's defense, I agree his man to man defense is not as good as Lebron's, he's not going to be assigned to the toughest offensive opponents like Lebron can be in a pinch, but Bird was a great system / team defender, it's not like he was ever a liability. I think with the freer flowing offensive with him in the line up it could certainly make up for the teams lesser defensive strength.

[I<3NBA]

http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt166/smushmvp/birdheat_zpsa70556d2.jpg (http://s608.photobucket.com/user/smushmvp/media/birdheat_zpsa70556d2.jpg.html)

Replaced.
goddamn. offensively, that is scary as hell. but defensively, the Heat would fall apart. without Lebron, Miami would not be able to run their small ball game. they would need a real center.

[BoutPractice]

It's about fit, not who's the best player.

The Heat is a small ball, drive and kick team that plays overaggressive defense and thrives on transition. Its identity fits LeBron and his qualities. If you gave them Bird instead of LeBron, they would have to completely rethink the way they play.

Offensively it would work but in a very different way: Wade would play more as a primary ballhandler and Bird would be an inside-outside option who's always dangerous without the ball. Defensively, however they wouldn't be able to overcommit as much, meaning they would be more handicapped by the lack of a rim protector. They would probably try to trade Bosh for a player like that, and if they did, would win multiple titles.

The same thing is true if you put LeBron on the 80s Celtics: it might be easier for the opposing team to pack the paint and double the big guys down low, while their defense would improve.

[pauk]

Larry Bird had his pitfalls aswell, even the Finals, most notably 1981 Finals which was worse than any Finals Lebron ever played....

Larry Bird 1981 Finals:

Game 1 - 19 pts
Game 2 - 18 pts
Game 3 - 8 pts
Game 4 - 8 pts
Game 5 - 12 pts

"Replace Larry Bird with Lebron James in 1981...?" What would happen?

I love Larry Bird, he is one of my favorite players of all time, but i hate this agenda of yours... stop acting like Larry Bird was flawless and would guaranteed never ever underperform in a span of such few games... nobody in NBA history was flawless all the time.... not even Jordan....

[Rooster]

Larry Bird had his pitfalls aswell, even the Finals, most notably 1981 Finals which was worse than any Finals Lebron ever played....

Larry Bird 1981 Finals:

Game 1 - 19 pts
Game 2 - 18 pts
Game 3 - 8 pts
Game 4 - 8 pts
Game 5 - 12 pts

"Replace Larry Bird with Lebron James in 1981...?" What would happen?

I love Larry Bird, he is one of my favorite players of all time, but i hate this agenda of yours... stop acting like Larry Bird was flawless and would guaranteed never ever underperform in a span of such few games... nobody in NBA history was flawless all the time.... not even Jordan....

He was talking about prime Larry Bird.:facepalm

[Papaya Petee]

2010-2011 Wade was still elite and arguably the best player in the NBA. Aside from the Chicago series, he was brilliant the other 3 series.

If they could get passed the Bulls, the Heat would of beat the Mavericks in 5-6 games, with the way Wade was producing, if you added Larry Bird. Even if Bird averaged 20\8\7 which would be below average for him, the Heat would of won.

[pauk]

He was talking about prime Larry Bird.:facepalm

Larry Bird averaged 22-14-6, was the best player on the team which had the best record... i dont know which specific "prime" season you are talking about but Larry Bird was "prime" from the very first get go in the NBA imo, the guy was just constantly equally amazing from start to finish (at least until he started having back problems)...

[Champ]

Larry Bird had his pitfalls aswell, even the Finals, most notably 1981 Finals which was worse than any Finals Lebron ever played....

Larry Bird 1981 Finals:

Game 1 - 19 pts
Game 2 - 18 pts
Game 3 - 8 pts
Game 4 - 8 pts
Game 5 - 12 pts

"Replace Larry Bird with Lebron James in 1981...?" What would happen?

I love Larry Bird, he is one of my favorite players of all time, but i hate this agenda of yours... stop acting like Larry Bird was flawless and would guaranteed never ever underperform in a span of such few games... nobody in NBA history was flawless all the time.... not even Jordan....
Those stats are limited and misleading. Bird had a solid series in the '81, and IMO should've been given the MVP instead of Maxwell.

Bird averaged 15/15/7, along with 2.3 steals, making clutch plays down the stretch in games 1 and the clinching game 6.

He put up 18/21/9 in the close opening win, and set the tone for the series with a punishing, physical style of play - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDk9y0Vul5A

In the final game, he went for 26/13 and was the go-to option for the C's down the stretch, almost single-handedly keeping the Rocket's rally at bay on their own home court - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoXOAs4Gz5A

In only his second season he was already showing phenomenal leadership and clutch play, something that took Lebron years to develop.

[riseagainst]

Wade would go back to a 25ppg scorer in 2012 playoffs and 2013 playoffs. Bosh would be at least 20 in both.

Larry doesn't need to dominate the ball to put up his numbers. Since he's the best rebounder on his team, he'd average at least 12 rebounds every playoffs from 2011 to 2013. You talking about a dude who out-rebounded Moses Malone and still put up double digit rebounding numbers playing with other great rebounders on his team.

Bird's assist would be somewhere in the 9 range.

Scoring wouldn't even be an issue. He can put up 30+ppg or he can put up 20ppg and dominate the game with his rebounding and passing.

So basically, if we replace Lebron with Bird, we get better shooting, better passing, better rebounding, actually makes his teammates better and let Wade dominate the ball and effectively use Wade's abilities. Miami would 5 peat even with Wade's injuries like in 2012 and 2013. Not really even close.

[pauk]

That would also be the first time Larry Bird ever played all of the sudden with 2 new stars in his team, adjust to new teammates, adjust to new coach, adjust to new offense, adjust to new role, sacrifice much of his shots/balldomination/touches and other offensive tendencies, going through process of on-court chemistry problems because of that and having a guy (Wade) fighting for the alpha-role especially in the clutch & especially all of the sudden in Finals.... all of this in the middle of the worst time, the Finals....

Thats exactly what Lebron went through in 2011.... and a big reason to his & Miami's tendencies in the Finals that year.... and that is exactly what Larry Bird (or anybody else) would have gone through, unless they were more selfish than Lebron hence took things upon their own hands (Larry Bird sure was just as unselfish as Lebron though)....

So to really answer your question CavaliersFTW there is a possibility the outcome of that series & Larry Bird's performance could very likely be similar considering the realistic circumstances....

[Scholar]

Replace LeBron with Bird in 2011 and we have a completely different outcome, imo. Bird would be able to do everything Dirk Nowitzki did & then some. He'd easily be averaging close to a triple-double every game because I can't imagine he'd not get close to 10 boards and 10 assists playing alongside a prime Bosh and Wade.

[Frozen1]

With prime bird, miami would have won in 2011, and would have won much easier in 2012 and 2013.

Wade, bosh and bird would complement each other, and the fact bird is clutch and not a choker adds a lot to the equation.

Wade and bosh would be allowed to do their thing, and would not be relagated to be $20,000,000 role players.

Lebron and Wade are the same kind of player on different sizes. The thing is that lebron only can play on one way, having the ball on his hands, while wade is flexible to play off the ball also.

They were never meant to play together, and someone had to sacrifice.

We always talk about wade, but you also need to talk about bosh sacrificing. To fit lebron ball, he became a 3 point shooter center.

[riseagainst]

With prime bird, miami would have won in 2011, and would have won much easier in 2012 and 2013.

Wade, bosh and bird would complement each other, and the fact bird is clutch and not a choker adds a lot to the equation.

Wade and bosh would be allowed to do their thing, and would not be relagated to be $20,000,000 role players.

Lebron and Wade are the same kind of player on different sizes. The thing is that lebron only can play on one way, having the ball on his hands, while wade is flexible to play off the ball also.

They were never meant to play together, and someone had to sacrifice.

We always talk about wade, but you also need to talk about bosh sacrificing. To fit lebron ball, he became a 3 point shooter center.

this. The only thing Lebron and Wade completely fit with each other are their fastbreaks.

[Nash]

what did Lebron average in the finals 2011?

[2010splash]

Agreed. Bird would get lit up like a Christmas tree on defense. The Heat would have no chance with him instead of LeBron on defense. Not to mention they get worse offensively also, especially in transition. The Heat basically replace LeBron with a slower, weaker, more unathletic and far less dominant player. Worse scoring and playmaking and much worse defense. Keep in mind the injuries that severely limited the effectiveness of Wade/Bosh in the 2012 and 2013 playoffs. No way Bird could handle that kind of workload.

[MavsSuperFan]

Heat would win, Lebron's 4th quarter performance was laughably bad. I couldnt believe how much of a detriment Lebron was to his team down the stretch. Wade actually played good in that series.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/z%20Funny%20NBA%20Photos/Funny%20NBA%20Record/Lebron%20James/aka%20big%20choker/lebron-james-2011-nba-final-4q.jpg

That is just straight choking. So much fear in Lebron back then.

[305Baller]

NBA Champs.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Overall the Heat are a worse team replacing LeBron with Bird. LeBron is the anchor that holds Miami's defense together. Without him, their defense completely falls apart, especially if you replace him with a crap ass defender like Bird.

Larry Bird:
1980 - 1st in DWS, 6th in DRtg, Celtics become of the best defensive teams with him after being one of the worst, same team, no Parish or McHale yet
1981 - 1st in DWS, 10th in DRtg
1982 - 2nd in DWS, 6th in DRtg
1984 - 1st in DWS, 2nd in DRtg
1985 - 2nd in DWS, 9th in DRtg
1986 - 1st in DWS, 4th in DRtg

Hit me up when Lebron does that. If Bird played right now doing that, people would be drooling and he would make every all-defensive team. Really underrated defensive impact and back then it wasn't about the hype, and the league had a lot of great defensive forwards.


Larry Bird had his pitfalls aswell, even the Finals, most notably 1981 Finals which was worse than any Finals Lebron ever played....

Larry Bird 1981 Finals:

Game 1 - 19 pts
Game 2 - 18 pts
Game 3 - 8 pts
Game 4 - 8 pts
Game 5 - 12 pts

"Replace Larry Bird with Lebron James in 1981...?" What would happen?

I love Larry Bird, he is one of my favorite players of all time, but i hate this agenda of yours... stop acting like Larry Bird was flawless and would guaranteed never ever underperform in a span of such few games... nobody in NBA history was flawless all the time.... not even Jordan....


Worse than any Finals Lebron played.. Good one. :lol :lol

Bird had a bad shooting series, yes, but let's just forget the 15.3 rpg, the 7.0 apg and the 2.3 spg. Let's forget that he was only 2nd to Moses in rebounds (by 6 only), let's forget that he was 1st in assists out of all players (Max with plenty of easy baskets due to his playmaking and drawing of attention), and also led everybody in steals. Oh and most importantly, his team won, a team that had the 2nd worst record in the league before he got there, that only saw a major addition in Parish, and he was the alpha dog and leader, had just put up 26.7/13.4 rpg/4.6 apg on 55.4 %TS the series before vs the 76ers with Dr. J and Bobby Jones on him.
Also during that series he was guarding Paultz and Reid, both really below their standards.
He had no star-level help by his side, Tiny played like crap, Parish was consistent and helped here and there but that's it, Maxwell better as far as scoring yes but not even close to Bird in everything else and again he had lot of easy looks due to Bird's playmaking and all the attention he had.
15.3/15.3/7.0/2.3/0.5 on 41.9/81.3, as a 24 years old sophomore, leading a team to the Finals and they won.

Lebron in his 1st Finals: 22.0/7.0/6.8/1.0/0.5 on 35.6/69.0, they lost
Lebron in his 2nd Finals, in his 8 year as a pro: 17.8/7.2/6.8/1.7/0.5 on 47.8/60.0, they lost, he had D-Wade playing like a beast, and Bosh who was an established star before joining the Heat
:lol :lol

And just screw the clinching game 6 where he put up 26 pts, 13 rbs, 5 assts on 11/20 from the field and 4/5 from the line, clutch as hell in the 4th: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoXOAs4Gz5A

His game 1 was also classic, more phyiscal and agressiver than anything Lebron has ever did or faced. 18/21/9 he put up also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDk9y0Vul5A


That would also be the first time Larry Bird ever played all of the sudden with 2 new stars in his team, adjust to new teammates, adjust to new coach, adjust to new offense, adjust to new role, sacrifice much of his shots/balldomination/touches and other offensive tendencies, going through process of on-court chemistry problems because of that and having a guy (Wade) fighting for the alpha-role especially in the clutch & especially all of the sudden in Finals.... all of this in the middle of the worst time, the Finals....

Just like Bird always did and the team was always at the top? :lol
Bird never needed to handle the ball as half as Lebron to be dominant, Lebron got his shots. Bird could dominate and be impactful in any way, meshing up with anyone, unlike James.
Bird would put Wade in his place.


Wade would go back to a 25ppg scorer in 2012 playoffs and 2013 playoffs. Bosh would be at least 20 in both.

Larry doesn't need to dominate the ball to put up his numbers. Since he's the best rebounder on his team, he'd average at least 12 rebounds every playoffs from 2011 to 2013. You talking about a dude who out-rebounded Moses Malone and still put up double digit rebounding numbers playing with other great rebounders on his team.

Bird's assist would be somewhere in the 9 range.

Scoring wouldn't even be an issue. He can put up 30+ppg or he can put up 20ppg and dominate the game with his rebounding and passing.

So basically, if we replace Lebron with Bird, we get better shooting, better passing, better rebounding, actually makes his teammates better and let Wade dominate the ball and effectively use Wade's abilities. Miami would 5 peat even with Wade's injuries like in 2012 and 2013. Not really even close.

:applause:

[2010splash]

Larry Bird:
1980 - 1st in DWS, 6th in DRtg, Celtics become of the best defensive teams with him after being one of the worst, same team, no Parish or McHale yet
1981 - 1st in DWS, 10th in DRtg
1982 - 2nd in DWS, 6th in DRtg
1984 - 1st in DWS, 2nd in DRtg
1985 - 2nd in DWS, 9th in DRtg
1986 - 1st in DWS, 4th in DRtg

Hit me up when Lebron does that. If Bird played right now doing that, people would be drooling and he would make every all-defensive team. Really underrated defensive impact and back then it wasn't about the hype, and the league had a lot of great defensive forwards.

Are you seriously using defense to support Bird in a comparison against LeBron? :oldlol: :roll: :applause: :facepalm

Who cares about some useless stat like "DWS"? The fact that Bird ranks so high attests to how useless it is. Anyone who seriously believes Bird makes a fraction of the impact of LeBron defensively needs to quit watching hoops.

We're talking about a slow-footed, unathletic, mediocre man defender who could never shut down the opposing team's best scorer, could never guard positions 1-4, could never have the insane chase down blocks on fast breaks LeBron always has, could never protect the rim, etc.

Hit me up when Bird can lead a team featuring Mo, Ilgauskas, Hughes, Sasha, Varejao, Boobie, Damon and other junk to 66 and 61 wins instead of playing with the most dominant frontline of the 80's. LeBron is way better than Bird. Don't deny the truth. :cheers:

[tpols]

Are you seriously using defense to support Bird in a comparison against LeBron? :oldlol: :roll: :applause: :facepalm

Who cares about some useless stat like "DWS"? The fact that Bird ranks so high attests to how useless it is. Anyone who seriously believes Bird makes a fraction of the impact of LeBron defensively needs to quit watching hoops.

We're talking about a slow-footed, unathletic, mediocre man defender who could never shut down the opposing team's best scorer, could never guard positions 1-4, could never have the insane chase down blocks on fast breaks LeBron always has, could never protect the rim, etc.

Hit me up when Bird can lead a team featuring Mo, Ilgauskas, Hughes, Sasha, Varejao, Boobie, Damon and other junk to 66 and 61 wins instead of playing with the most dominant frontline of the 80's. LeBron is way better than Bird. Don't deny the truth. :cheers:
Bird is better rebounder, post defender, quicker hands in the paint and in general and of course very intelligent rotator. Miamis BIGGEST deficiency is low post defense and of course rebounding.. and Bird is better down low than Lebron is. Bangs harder, better anticipation, better hands for rebounds, better outlet passes to get transition moving. Bird covers huge holes for the team.

Lebrons defense is better, but Miamis defense is already elite without Lebron.. Chalmers, battier wade can lock up the perimeter, and Bosh/Anderson are good help defenders.. plus spo is a defensive coach first and foremost.


The value a team gets from Birds spacing and passing makes everyone on the teams life easier.

No more Bosh shooting 3s all game.. no more clumped defenders in the paint, allowing Wade to have more lanes.. better ball movement and a much better TEAM offense.

Miami with Bird destroys the spurs because the only reason the spurs hung around was because they were in Lebrons head making him scared to shoot and disrupting the whole flow of the offense. Doesnt happen with Bird.

[2010splash]

Bird is better rebounder, post defender, quicker hands in the paint and in general and of course very intelligent rotator. Miamis BIGGEST deficiency is low post defense and of course rebounding.. and Bird is better down low than Lebron is. Bangs harder, better anticipation, better hands for rebounds, better outlet passes to get transition moving. Bird covers huge holes for the team.

Lebrons defense is better, but Miamis defense is already elite without Lebron.. Chalmers, battier wade can lock up the perimeter, and Bosh/Anderson are good help defenders.. plus spo is a defensive coach first and foremost.


The value a team gets from Birds spacing and passing makes everyone on the teams life easier.

No more Bosh shooting 3s all game.. no more clumped defenders in the paint, allowing Wade to have more lanes.. better ball movement and a much better TEAM offense.

Miami with Bird destroys the spurs because the only reason the spurs hung around was because they were in Lebrons head making him scared to shoot and disrupting the whole flow of the offense. Doesnt happen with Bird.
You're smoking something fierce there buddy. Bird is a lame defensive player compared to LeBron in just about every respect. Way worse post defender, way slower hands, way less disruptive as a team defender, terrible transition defender, and a weak man-to-man defender as well. He's nowhere close to LeBron defensively because he doesn't wreak havoc by being anywhere and everywhere on the court and by guarding multiple positions.

And obviously there's no way Miami's defense is elite without LeBron. The whole thing would fall apart without him. Bosh is ok but gets abused by real bigs, a problem that Bird would do absolutely nothing to alleviate. The real issue here is that Bird cannot be put on another team's Derrick Rose, Tony Parker, Paul George, etc. and expect to shut them down. Those three would take a dump on Bird because he's too slow, unathletic, and not a good enough defender to stop them.

Imagine Bird trying to guard Parker or Rose. :roll: It would be absolutely comical. With Bird instead of LeBron, Miami gets crushed by the Spurs and quite honestly probably doesn't even make it far enough to play the Spurs in the Finals. Keep in mind that the Heat needed LeBron to basically lead the team in everything, carrying an unprecedented workload while leading a team with a 16/5/5/.498 TS second option and a 12/7/.524 TS third option to the title.

Bird would have no chance with that little help. We're talking about a guy who needs a dominant McHale/Parish beast of a frontline AND a silly loaded bench to win titles. You think he's winning it all with the help the Heat gave LeBron in 2012 and 2013? Get real man. Come on now.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Are you seriously using defense to support Bird in a comparison against LeBron? :oldlol: :roll: :applause: :facepalm

Who cares about some useless stat like "DWS"? The fact that Bird ranks so high attests to how useless it is. Anyone who seriously believes Bird makes a fraction of the impact of LeBron defensively needs to quit watching hoops.

We're talking about a slow-footed, unathletic, mediocre man defender who could never shut down the opposing team's best scorer, could never guard positions 1-4, could never have the insane chase down blocks on fast breaks LeBron always has, could never protect the rim, etc.

Hit me up when Bird can lead a team featuring Mo, Ilgauskas, Hughes, Sasha, Varejao, Boobie, Damon and other junk to 66 and 61 wins instead of playing with the most dominant frontline of the 80's. LeBron is way better than Bird. Don't deny the truth. :cheers:


These 12 year old ignorant kids :facepalm

[zoom17]

:facepalm These "replace" this player with another threads are getting annoying

[97 bulls]

Are you seriously using defense to support Bird in a comparison against LeBron? :oldlol: :roll: :applause: :facepalm

Who cares about some useless stat like "DWS"? The fact that Bird ranks so high attests to how useless it is. Anyone who seriously believes Bird makes a fraction of the impact of LeBron defensively needs to quit watching hoops.

We're talking about a slow-footed, unathletic, mediocre man defender who could never shut down the opposing team's best scorer, could never guard positions 1-4, could never have the insane chase down blocks on fast breaks LeBron always has, could never protect the rim, etc.

Hit me up when Bird can lead a team featuring Mo, Ilgauskas, Hughes, Sasha, Varejao, Boobie, Damon and other junk to 66 and 61 wins instead of playing with the most dominant frontline of the 80's. LeBron is way better than Bird. Don't deny the truth. :cheers:
Defensive rating and win share is a stat that must be put into context like every other.

Birds defensive ratings are high because he plays the oppositions weakest scorer. Its the same.reason Carlos Boozers ratings are high. Noah checks the teams best low post player. So Boozers man may end up with only five points, but its because hes no good. Not due to Boozers ability to shut him down

The same logic applies to Bird. If Bird plays the same position, hes gonna be killed by Rose. And team defense be damed. Cuz Thibs would iso one side of the floor as opposed to calling all those picks.

Which means Wade would have to expend energy guarding Rose. Casue Chalmers wouldnt be able to do so.

And this isnt a knock on Bird. The Celtics would have trouble if they had to stand around and wait for James kickouts off penetration. There wouldn't be any movement off the ball, and the Celtics would suffer as well.

Its why these comparisons are kinda silly

[97 bulls]

:facepalm These "replace" this player with another threads are getting annoying
They are. Because you blowup the whole dynamic of the team. Especially when you try to implement players with totally different styles.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Defensive rating and win share is a stat that must be put into context like every other.

Birds defensive ratings are high because he plays the oppositions weakest scorer. Its the same.reason Carlos Boozers ratings are high. Noah checks the teams best low post player. So Boozers man may end up with only five points, but its because hes no good. Not due to Boozers ability to shut him down

The same logic applies to Bird. If Bird plays the same position, hes gonna be killed by Rose. And team defense be damed. Cuz Thibs would iso one side of the floor as opposed to calling all those picks.

Which means Wade would have to expend energy guarding Rose. Casue Chalmers wouldnt be able to do so.

And this isnt a knock on Bird. The Celtics would have trouble if they had to stand around and wait for James kickouts off penetration. There wouldn't be any movement off the ball, and the Celtics would suffer as well.

Its why these comparisons are kinda silly


Of course Bird wouldn't be guarding someone like Rose lol, he was a forward, projected as a PF, he didn't have that type of lateral quickness, he was far from an athletic freak like Lebron, he wasn't as versatile on D like a Lebron James. Still he could hold his own on the perimeter, good post defender (better than James), and amazing team-defender (also, even better than Lebron). LBJ is above as an overall defender yes definitely, but Bird's defensive impact is way too much underrated.

DRtg's are high because he guarded the weakest scorer? WTF does that mean? I bet you don't even know what DRtg is.
Bird only started to considerably be hid on defense when he started to have back problems, so around 85 or 86. Time and time again he used to guard great offensive forwards, he held his own overall.

Of course everything must be put into context..
Boozer was 2nd (2012) in DRtg and 7th (2011) another time, 5th (2012) in DWS once and 9th (2010) another time, still he's far from a great defensive player, he was playing on one of the best, if not the very best, defensive team in the league. He had other teammates in the top 10 in DRtg (Noah or Gibson), and also at the top in DWS (Noah, Rose, Deng).
Also, and still, what he did was far from Bird (as a SF/PF):
1980 - 1st in DWS, 6th in DRtg, Celtics become of the best defensive teams with him after being one of the worst, same team, no Parish or McHale yet
1981 - 1st in DWS, 10th in DRtg
1982 - 2nd in DWS, 6th in DRtg
1984 - 1st in DWS, 2nd in DRtg
1985 - 2nd in DWS, 9th in DRtg
1986 - 1st in DWS, 4th in DRtg

Playoffs was more of the same.
Let's not compare because that clearly trumps what Boozer did, and all of that it's not by accident. Plus Bird averaged close to 2 steals and close to 1 block, per game, FOR HIS CAREER.
McHale was never once top 10 in either DRtg and DWS, nor other guys like Maxwell, Tiny or DJ, playing alongside Bird. Parish was there plenty but not as high as Bird overall, and funny because he stop being when Bird started to have problems with injuries.
Other forwards doing similar things for plenty of years like Bird were KG, Duncan, Pippen or Bobby Jones (no LBJ).. I guess that was because they were guarding the weakest scorer also.

He had crazy defensive awareness (as his overall IQ), two of the quickest hands, great at jumping into passing lanes, knew how to protect the paint, deceptively quick always, knew how to let his man go to then steal the ball or block the shot, knew how to lead his man into crowded area, knew how to draw charges, could stop fastbreaks, good at guarding the post even against great bigmen, and like I've said he held his own on the perimeter 1on1, plenty of games where the guy he was guarding did considerably worse. You could argue that his type of defensive impact through team D was better than many great on-ball perimeter defenders.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s

You always underrated Bird like a mother****er though, don't even know what you're saying plenty of times, don't know why I even try.

[TheCorporation]

How so? He would've been the best player in the series.

Bird is no LeBron. Chicago would've beaten a Bird lead Heat, sans LBJ. Did you see how Wade performed that series? Terribly. LBJ had to do it all that series, against the #1 defense in the league. Not to mention LBJ locked Rose down, Bird would have no chance to defend Rose like LBJ did.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Bird is no LeBron. Chicago would've beaten a Bird lead Heat, sans LBJ. Did you see how Wade performed that series? Terribly. LBJ had to do it all that series, against the #1 defense in the league. Not to mention LBJ locked Rose down, Bird would have no chance to defend Rose like LBJ did.

Yeah he's not, he's better.

Lmfao, in 1984 Bird led the Celtics to a championship vs the showtime Lakers with Kareem, Magic, Worthy, McAdoo, Wilkes, Scott, Cooper, Rambis and Scott, with his teammates really underperforming (and not just offensively).. As far as scoring, DJ with 17.6 ppg on 39.5%, Parish with 15.4 on 44.0%, McHale with 13.4 on 45.2%, just one example out of countless (that whole 1984 PS is a big example).. But he wouldn't be able to get past the Bulls with Bosh putting up 23.2 on 60.0%, Wade 18.3 on 39.4%? :lol Good one. In fact they would've been even better with him because he didn't need to be ball-dominant or take teammates out of their usual game, and he could create passes and easy buckets after just touching the ball. And the Bulls lost 4-1, how close was that??? lmfao
Why the f would he need to guard Rose? Again he was a forward, projected as a PF, didn't have the lateral quickness to be/guard guards, was not as versatile as a Lebron on D and far from an athletic freak like him also. The Heat had other players to guard Rose, Bird's offensive impact would be too big (and bigger than Lebron's) for someone like Rose to trump, plus Larry's defensive impact, mostly through help d, was also great.
Bird's overall impact > Lebron's overall impact...Including offense and defense.

[TheCorporation]

Yeah he's not, he's better.
Bird's overall impact > Lebron's overall impact...Including offense and defense.

You're insane.

LeBron vs the 2011 Chicago Bulls:

26-7-8 with 2.4 steals, 1.8 blocks and amazing defense on Rose.

This is 2011, not the 80's. Players are far more athletic, and defensive schemes are more complex now....

Bird would've gone down. Period.

[Bandito]

The Heat are so stacked they are probably still going to win the Finals both of these years. And Bird wouldn't even choke like Lebron did because he has the heart of Steel.

[zoom17]

They are. Because you blowup the whole dynamic of the team. Especially when you try to implement players with totally different styles.

Some of them are decent like replace to similar players that play the same style but most of them are dumb and annoying.

[SHAQisGOAT]

You're insane.

LeBron vs the 2011 Chicago Bulls:

26-7-8 with 2.4 steals, 1.8 blocks and amazing defense on Rose.

This is 2011, not the 80's. Players are far more athletic, and defensive schemes are more complex now....

Bird would've gone down. Period.

Oh ok didn't know I was arguing with a 12 year old ignorant kid/troll.. Moving on.

[2010splash]

These 12 year old ignorant kids :facepalm
Sounds like you want to turn a blind eye towards Bird's countless choke jobs in the playoffs. Contrary to popular myth, Bird was not some clutch god in the playoffs. Heck, Bird was a far greater choker than LeBron in the playoffs (and that's no slight to Bird, since LeBron is one of the all-time greatest in the playoffs).

'82, '83, '85, '87, '88, '90, '91 were all unimpressive playoff runs and/or Finals meltdowns by Bird. People like you act like Bird was Jordan or something. The dude had maybe 2-3 dominant playoff runs (none of which were even better than LeBron's best) and you act like he's some GOAT level player.

[colts19]

Oh ok didn't know I was arguing with a 12 year old ignorant kid/troll.. Moving on.
This. My God some of these young kids are just plain Stupid.

[Doranku]

You're smoking something fierce there buddy. Bird is a lame defensive player compared to LeBron in just about every respect. Way worse post defender, way slower hands, way less disruptive as a team defender, terrible transition defender, and a weak man-to-man defender as well. He's nowhere close to LeBron defensively because he doesn't wreak havoc by being anywhere and everywhere on the court and by guarding multiple positions.

And obviously there's no way Miami's defense is elite without LeBron. The whole thing would fall apart without him. Bosh is ok but gets abused by real bigs, a problem that Bird would do absolutely nothing to alleviate. The real issue here is that Bird cannot be put on another team's Derrick Rose, Tony Parker, Paul George, etc. and expect to shut them down. Those three would take a dump on Bird because he's too slow, unathletic, and not a good enough defender to stop them.

Imagine Bird trying to guard Parker or Rose. :roll: It would be absolutely comical. With Bird instead of LeBron, Miami gets crushed by the Spurs and quite honestly probably doesn't even make it far enough to play the Spurs in the Finals. Keep in mind that the Heat needed LeBron to basically lead the team in everything, carrying an unprecedented workload while leading a team with a 16/5/5/.498 TS second option and a 12/7/.524 TS third option to the title.

Bird would have no chance with that little help. We're talking about a guy who needs a dominant McHale/Parish beast of a frontline AND a silly loaded bench to win titles. You think he's winning it all with the help the Heat gave LeBron in 2012 and 2013? Get real man. Come on now.

You wrote more paragraphs in this post than you've seen full games of Larry Bird play. You don't even know what you're arguing. :roll:

[poido123]

You're smoking something fierce there buddy. Bird is a lame defensive player compared to LeBron in just about every respect. Way worse post defender, way slower hands, way less disruptive as a team defender, terrible transition defender, and a weak man-to-man defender as well. He's nowhere close to LeBron defensively because he doesn't wreak havoc by being anywhere and everywhere on the court and by guarding multiple positions.

And obviously there's no way Miami's defense is elite without LeBron. The whole thing would fall apart without him. Bosh is ok but gets abused by real bigs, a problem that Bird would do absolutely nothing to alleviate. The real issue here is that Bird cannot be put on another team's Derrick Rose, Tony Parker, Paul George, etc. and expect to shut them down. Those three would take a dump on Bird because he's too slow, unathletic, and not a good enough defender to stop them.

Imagine Bird trying to guard Parker or Rose. :roll: It would be absolutely comical. With Bird instead of LeBron, Miami gets crushed by the Spurs and quite honestly probably doesn't even make it far enough to play the Spurs in the Finals. Keep in mind that the Heat needed LeBron to basically lead the team in everything, carrying an unprecedented workload while leading a team with a 16/5/5/.498 TS second option and a 12/7/.524 TS third option to the title.

Bird would have no chance with that little help. We're talking about a guy who needs a dominant McHale/Parish beast of a frontline AND a silly loaded bench to win titles. You think he's winning it all with the help the Heat gave LeBron in 2012 and 2013? Get real man. Come on now.


I haven't seen all of Bird's career, but I have watched many games on Youtube and read alot.

Bird was not a good man defender, but a good team defender, so if he was in Lebron's place, he would still be very effective on offense, but they would struggle on defense because of the makeup of that team. Put Bird on a Chicago or Pacers? They would never lose.

For all of Bird's lack of athleticism, he was elite in everything he was able to do. Exceptional skills, shooter, basketball IQ and toughness. I wouldn't sell him short and say he couldn't win with Miami, but if he was in a team that plays good team defense, with a defensive big man to anchor the defense, he would thrive.

[97 bulls]

I haven't seen all of Bird's career, but I have watched many games on Youtube and read alot.

Bird was not a good man defender, but a good team defender, so if he was in Lebron's place, he would still be very effective on offense, but they would struggle on defense because of the makeup of that team. Put Bird on a Chicago or Pacers? They would never lose.

For all of Bird's lack of athleticism, he was elite in everything he was able to do. Exceptional skills, shooter, basketball IQ and toughness. I wouldn't sell him short and say he couldn't win with Miami, but if he was in a team that plays good team defense, with a defensive big man to anchor the defense, he would thrive.
Offensively, the Heat lose nothing. Maybe even gain because Bird is much better in the post and doesnt need to dominate the ball like James. Its defense that Bird would suffer. Or, Wade would need to spend more energy on defense. Which effects his offense.

[97 bulls]

Im curious as to know who defends Kevin Durant in 2012 and Derick Rose in 2011?