Replace MJ on the '96 Bulls with '06 Kobe

[sportjames23]

Do the Bulls still win 70+ games? Can Kobe keep Rodman in check? Do they make it to the Finals and win it all?

[SilkkTheShocker]

Not only do they win it but they actually beat Orlando the season before.

[VIntageNOvel]

Do the Bulls still win 70+ games? Can Kobe keep Rodman in check? Do they make it to the Finals and win it all?

their regular season record maybe worse,
but they would still win it all

[I<3NBA]

what makes you think MJ kept Rodman in check? PJax kept everyone in check. you think Kobe kept Artest in check in LA?

and no. Bulls won't get past ECF. Pippen would actually make Kobe his bitch.

[Kblaze8855]

Possibly. I'll say 3 in 10 chance.

Nobody kept Rodman in check. They only cared that he play well during games. Which he would do no matter who he played with.

Probably.

The Bulls were better than they needed to be to win. The drop from Jordan to Kobe wouldnt be enough to keep them from greatness.

[SilkkTheShocker]

No, but seriously the Bulls wouldn't win the title. Payton would have shut his ass down even worse than he did Jordan. Plus there is always the chance Kobe quits like he did in the 06 playoffs

[sportjames23]

what makes you think MJ kept Rodman in check? PJax kept everyone in check. you think Kobe kept Artest in check in LA?

and no. Bulls won't get past ECF. Pippen would actually make Kobe his bitch.


Was Phil on the court? So, no, he didn't keep Rodman in check.

Dennis respected MJ, whereas he didn't respect David Robinson when he was on the Spurs. And I didn't say anything about Kobe keeping Artest in check.

[sportjames23]

No, but seriously the Bulls wouldn't win the title. Payton would have shut his ass down even worse than he did Jordan. Plus there is always the chance Kobe quits like he did in the 06 playoffs


You just beggin for Lebron to be brought into this, ain't you? :lol

[longtime lurker]

They miss the playoffs. Stupid thread is stupid.

[Doranku]

'06 Kobe was better than '96 Jordan at both ends of the floor, so yes to 70+ wins and a title.

[riseagainst]

You just beggin for Lebron to be brought into this, ain't you? :lol

:roll: :roll: :roll:

:applause: :applause:

[Young X]

'96 Jordan is better than any version of Kobe at almost every facet of the game, better statistically, more efficient, more consistent and he's less ball dominant than Kobe. There's no way they win 72 games with Kobe, I'd say they win 67 games and lose in the finals.

[rhythmic]

Possibly. I'll say 3 in 10 chance.

Nobody kept Rodman in check. They only cared that he play well during games. Which he would do no matter who he played with.

Probably.

The Bulls were better than they needed to be to win. The drop from Jordan to Kobe wouldnt be enough to keep them from greatness.

So you're saying 96' Jordan was better then 06' Kobe?
If Kobe had 96' Rodman & Pippen; I don't even want to imagine how much shit Kobe would catch from posters on this forum. I mean they make a huge deal about Gasol (who was 0-12 in the playoffs) prior to joining Kobe, and was looked at as just "another" star player.

In fact before Gasol joined Kobe, most people would have picked Chris Bosh over Pau Gasol in 2007. It really is sad how disrepected the guy is.

06' Kobe almost upset a heavily favored Suns squad with Odom + absolute trash on the roster. Jordan was getting swept in his more productive years with teammates better then Kobe's.

Yet somehow 96' Jordan would do better then 06' Kobe with the Bulls, riiiight.

[OldSchoolBBall]

They win 60-65 games instead of 72. They probabloy lose to Orlando or Seattle. People don't realize that Kobe's style of play, especially in '06, isn't as conducive to team basketball as Jordan's is, thus the offense wouldn't run as smoothly. It's not about numbers, it's about style of play. Jordan was playing a championship brand of ball while Kobe was not.

And yes, '96 Jordan was better than '06 Kobe. Better numbers, better defensively, and did so within a team context on a championship level team.

[DuMa]

they dont win the championship. thats all you should know and care about

[tpols]

They win 60-65 games instead of 72. They probabloy lose to Orlando or Seattle. People don't realize that Kobe's style of play, especially in '06, isn't as conducive to team basketball as Jordan's is, thus the offense wouldn't run as smoothly. It's not about numbers, it's about style of play. Jordan was playing a championship brand of ball while Kobe was not.

And yes, '96 Jordan was better than '06 Kobe. Better numbers, better defensively, and did so within a team context on a championship level team.
Didnt Phil give him the green light to go off though?

As soon as he got Gasol and his team improved he started playing a much more team oriented game.

Why would Phil give him the green light if he was on the stacked bulls? Doesn't make sense..

[Soundwave]

70 wins is an extremely tough feat to reach, Kobe has had the talent to hit 70 wins before with Shaq and other guys and has failed to do so.

Aside from 92-93 where I think a lot of the Bulls were just plain sick of each other, the Bulls won 60+ games every season with Jordan in the 1990s.

Even when he came back from basketball their record with Jordan went from being a barely .500 team to a 13-4 record which prorates to a 62 game win season.

Kobe's had his chances and some stacked teams to hit 70 or more, but hasn't been able to do it.

A '96 MJ hits 70+ with Shaq at least once or twice, especially that one year they had Shaq + GP + Mailman. Kobe only surpassed 60 wins twice with Shaq, most years they won in the high 50s together.

[tpols]

70 wins is an extremely tough feat to reach, Kobe has had the talent to hit 70 wins before with Shaq and other guys and has failed to do so.
They never cared about that regular season stuff.. Shaq came into seasons out of shape and slowly worked his way up for the playoffs. 2001 they only win 50 something and then have one of the most dominant playoff runs ever.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Prime / Peak Kobe is winning rings with these Bulls squads:

'94
'96
'97

Every other year required some unique MJ moment of pure heart, will, determination or domination that Kobe never reached in the playoffs.

I doubt they win as many regular season games in '96 and '97 though. Definitely win more with him replacing Pete Myers in '94. That team needed an elite scorer and closer to beat NYC.

[Soundwave]

They never cared about that regular season stuff.. Shaq came into seasons out of shape and slowly worked his way up for the playoffs. 2001 they only win 50 something and then have one of the most dominant playoff runs ever.

Great players, great leader make sure their team is ready to play every night. The Lakers were far more talented than most teams they played, so to me it's not an excuse.

Scottie Pippen and especially Dennis Rodman would zone out for stretches in the regular season too. MJ brought it pretty much every night because he knew that was expected of him.

Kobe IMO is a great individual talent, but he lacks the ability to really get his teammates to follow his lead. He reverts to a lot of bad tendencies (shot jacking) when things get tough.

[rhythmic]

They win 60-65 games instead of 72. They probabloy lose to Orlando or Seattle. People don't realize that Kobe's style of play, especially in '06, isn't as conducive to team basketball as Jordan's is, thus the offense wouldn't run as smoothly. It's not about numbers, it's about style of play. Jordan was playing a championship brand of ball while Kobe was not.

And yes, '96 Jordan was better than '06 Kobe. Better numbers, better defensively, and did so within a team context on a championship level team.

Do you want me to list how many times Jordan took 30+ shots with the Bulls?
Just stfu already, none of your shit even makes sense.

[rhythmic]

70 wins is an extremely tough feat to reach, Kobe has had the talent to hit 70 wins before with Shaq and other guys and has failed to do so.

Aside from 92-93 where I think a lot of the Bulls were just plain sick of each other, the Bulls won 60+ games every season with Jordan in the 1990s.

Even when he came back from basketball their record with Jordan went from being a barely .500 team to a 13-4 record which prorates to a 62 game win season.

Kobe's had his chances and some stacked teams to hit 70 or more, but hasn't been able to do it.

A '96 MJ hits 70+ with Shaq at least once or twice, especially that one year they had Shaq + GP + Mailman. Kobe only surpassed 60 wins twice with Shaq, most years they won in the high 50s together.

Sorry, you're wrong.
88'-93' Jordan was better then any version of Kobe.
06'-08' Kobe is better then any version of Jordan from 96' - 98'.
I think you guys are forgetting how dominant Kobe was in 2006. Jordan's playoff numbers were far inferior to his first 3-peat. It's not his fault either. He was getting old, plus he batted for the Sox for 2 years.

01' & 03' Kobe, 06'-08' Kobe is winning a title with the Bulls in 96'.
I have no idea if they win 72 games though. I guess 2003 Kobe could, because he actually played defense.

But I'm pretty sure he's winning a championship.

:facepalm

[Soundwave]

Do you want me to list how many times Jordan took 30+ shots with the Bulls?
Just stfu already, none of your shit even makes sense.

It's not the number of shots you take, one of the things MJ is really far superior to both Kobe and LeBron in is he understand the "flow" of the game far better than either of those players. He knew when to press for his shot, when to attack the defense, when his teammates needed him to shoot.

Kobe still forces things too much quite often, LeBron still shrinks once in a while when the going gets tough.

Larry Bird was great at this also.

[tpols]

Great players, great leader make sure their team is ready to play every night. The Lakers were far more talented than most teams they played, so to me it's not an excuse.

Scottie Pippen and especially Dennis Rodman would zone out for stretches in the regular season too. MJ brought it pretty much every night because he knew that was expected of him.

Kobe IMO is a great individual talent, but he lacks the ability to really get his teammates to follow his lead. He reverts to a lot of bad tendencies (shot jacking) when things get tough.
Why would the burden of leadership be on Kobe when those teams were Shaqs teams? Wouldn't Shaq be the leader?

MJ trying to whip Shaq into shape wouldn't have worked dude.. Shaqs stubborn and missed chunks of games at a time.

[Young X]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[rhythmic]

It's not the number of shots you take, one of the things MJ is really far superior to both Kobe and LeBron in is he understand the "flow" of the game far better than either of those players. He knew when to press for his shot, when to attack the defense, when his teammates needed him to shoot.

Kobe still forces things too much quite often, LeBron still shrinks once in a while when the going gets tough.

Larry Bird was great at this also.

So not true, I am sensing you are a big Jordan fan, right?
Well I watched Jordan plenty, and if you're going to sit there and tell me Jordan didn't jack shots a lot, then I'll flat out call you a liar. He took many bad shots after coming back from retirement in order to finds his legs. Especially when he started off slowly in games. He'll just take shot after shot; luckily for him, his team had a far better defense then any of Kobe's teams from 08' to 10'.

Dude had some MISERABLE performances, especially from 96' to 98'.
Dude would take ill advised shots just to get his rhythm back, just like Kobe has been notorious for doing.

[305Baller]

2nd round exit. Jordan had a way of having his players overachieve and play their butts off for him. Im not sure Kobe has that intangible.

[Soundwave]

Why would the burden of leadership be on Kobe when those teams were Shaqs teams? Wouldn't Shaq be the leader?

MJ trying to whip Shaq into shape wouldn't have worked dude.. Shaqs stubborn and missed chunks of games at a time.

It's fair to put some blame on Shaq too, but if we're going to presuppose that Kobe is on Jordan's level ... MJ would've won multiple 70 win seasons with Shaq and cruised to 60+ at least pretty much every year.

Fact is Kobe has had very talented rosters over the course of his career and he hasn't been able to get to 70 and probably won't. Miami probably won't either.

The amount of focus and harmony a team needs to have to top that barrier is insane.

[Dragonyeuw]

'06 Kobe was better than '96 Jordan at both ends of the floor, so yes to 70+ wins and a title.

Basketball is not as simple as 'swap Superstar x with superstar y', and no change in the space-time continuum. Your post assumes that 2006 Kobe is going to have the same chemistry with Pippen that Jordan did( which is impossible, as those two knew each other inside and out Basketball-wise), that the Bulls respond to Kobe's leadership the way they responded to Jordan's, that Kobe's game won't change to compensate for the superior talent on the 96 Bulls compared to the talent on the 06 Lakers. There's too many intangible dynamics involved in this scenario.

[rhythmic]

2nd round exit. Jordan had a way of having his players overachieve and play their butts off for him. Im not sure Kobe has that intangible.

Really? How so?
Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, Luke Walton, Kwame Brown, Smush Parker, Trevor Ariza, Sasha Vujavic had their best years playing with Kobe.

I love how people are labeling Pau this MVP caliber player all the sudden.
Before Kobe? 0-12 in the playoffs, showed no emotion, passion or competitiveness. Under Kobe's wing? 2 time NBA champion and is a sure HOF bound player.

I love the double standard there. :rolleyes:

[Young X]

'06 Kobe was better than '96 Jordan at both ends of the floor, so yes to 70+ wins and a title.^ What a joke of a post. :oldlol:

[KG215]

So you're saying 96' Jordan was better then 06' Kobe?
If Kobe had 96' Rodman & Pippen; I don't even want to imagine how much shit Kobe would catch from posters on this forum. I mean they make a huge deal about Gasol (who was 0-12 in the playoffs) prior to joining Kobe, and was looked at as just "another" star player.

In fact before Gasol joined Kobe, most people would have picked Chris Bosh over Pau Gasol in 2007. It really is sad how disrepected the guy is.

06' Kobe almost upset a heavily favored Suns squad with Odom + absolute trash on the roster. Jordan was getting swept in his more productive years with teammates better then Kobe's.

Yet somehow 96' Jordan would do better then 06' Kobe with the Bulls, riiiight.
It's also sad how disrespected Pau has become by Kobe fans and that they act like he was the exact same player in 2009 and 2010 that he was in Memphis.

[SilkkTheShocker]

2nd round exit. Jordan had a way of having his players overachieve and play their butts off for him. Im not sure Kobe has that intangible.

This is the effect Kobe has on teammates:

http://cdn.newsday.com/polopoly_fs/1.5682946.1373764550!/httpImage/image.JPG_gen/derivatives/display_600/image.JPG

[305Baller]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[305Baller]

This is the effect Kobe has on teammates:

http://cdn.newsday.com/polopoly_fs/1.5682946.1373764550!/httpImage/image.JPG_gen/derivatives/display_600/image.JPG

Cmon. Howard didnt want to be there... or just plain sucks. I dunno. He was terrible.

[Soundwave]

People really understate Jordan's calming effect on the Bulls too. It kept Rodman (at least for a year) in check and it compensated for Scottie's tendency to zone out now and again too.

Kobe doesn't have that, he still goes AWOL to this day and can be easily baited into going outside the team structure.

Shot selection is pretty much a robotic thing for Kobe, remember when he refused to shoot to teach Phil a lesson that one game? lol.

[KG215]

Exactly, Jordan had the less heralded team that ran more cohesively. And Jordan knew how to maximize his team. Kobe had way more talent to work with.
Well that's just not true...at all.

[tpols]

It's fair to put some blame on Shaq too, but if we're going to presuppose that Kobe is on Jordan's level ... MJ would've won multiple 70 win seasons with Shaq and cruised to 60+ at least pretty much every year.

Fact is Kobe has had very talented rosters over the course of his career and he hasn't been able to get to 70 and probably won't. Miami probably won't either.

The amount of focus and harmony a team needs to have to top that barrier is insane.
Eh.. You're not considering external factors outside Jordans control.

On the Bulls.. You had unselfish, consistent team play defense and rebounding from Scottie and Rodman.. A great team system, that was under Michael and Phil and knew their roles.


The Lakers were a two headed monster, and with shaq.. He isn't under Michael at least in his mind. Shaq isn't busting his ass on defense hustling out of his mind all season long just because Michael is in his ear. If anything his stubbornness leads him to resentment

Shaq isn't pippen or Rodman two guys who have no problem doing the dirty work and contributing to team play at all times Shaq will do the dirty work when he wants and when it's necessary like in the playoffs... But to assume Jordan makes him work like he did Scottie and Rodman is shortsighted imo..

[305Baller]

Well that's just not true...at all.

so totally true.

[magnax1]

Really, Id say 96 Jordan and 06 Kobe are pretty evenm 06 Kobe might be a bit better. 06 Kobe on the 96 Bulls would probably look a lot lioe 08 Kobe, but with a bit higher volume and efficiency of scoring. Jordan was probably the better defender. In fact in some ways 96 was his best defensive year, in that he really didnt gamble or overplay guys on defense.

[rhythmic]

It's also sad how disrespected Pau has become by Kobe fans and that they act like he was the exact same player in 2009 and 2010 that he was in Memphis.

I love Pau, but lets be honest here.
What exactly has he achieved before coming to LA?
Is it really unfair for me to say Kobe influenced Pau signficantly?
In terms of getting the most out of his talents? In terms of playing with heart, passion & intensity?

I don't know, 0-12 in the playoffs just sounds pathetic to me.
He was under the shadow before teaming up with Kobe, and in a span of half a decade he became a 1st ballot HOF.

Yet, I have to sit here and read shit like "Jordan maximized his teammates talent, and Kobe can't do the same."

:rolleyes:

Let me remind you that the Bulls won 54 games without Jordan; and 3 players from that roster made the All-Star squad. If you seriously don't think that Pippen (as a leader) was significantly better then Pau (as a leader in Memphis) by a ****ing mile, then you truly are riding Jordan's jock strap.

[Soundwave]

Eh.. You're not considering external factors outside Jordans control.

On the Bulls.. You had unselfish, consistent team play defense and rebounding from Scottie and Rodman.. A great team system, that was under Michael and Phil and knew their roles.


The Lakers were a two headed monster, and with shaq.. He isn't under Michael at least in his mind. Shaq isn't busting his ass on defense hustling out of his mind all season long just because Michael is in his ear. Shaq isn't pippen or Rodman two guys who have no problem doing the dirty work and contributing to team play. Shaq will do the dirty work when he wants and when it's necessary like in the playoffs... But to assume Jordan makes him work like he did Scottie and Rodman is shortsighted imo..

Rodman was a nut job that wasn't always "there". Pippen could be mentally weak at times. Kukoc was inconsistent.

They played "their roles" sure, but lets not underestimate the impact MJ had on getting them to understand their roles.

He commanded respect.

Kobe, for whatever reason, IMO just isn't able to get the same level of belief out of his teammates.

You put Rodman on a Kobe team and he's probably going crazy by game 40.

The fact that Phil constantly had to butt heads with Kobe all the time and you never really hear that about MJ, who bought in to Phil's system absolutely by 1991.

[Kblaze8855]

I think you guys are forgetting how dominant Kobe was in 2006.


Dominance isnt scoring 39 points in a loss. Its being a great scorer who took 29 shots because his team isnt very good.

Kobe scored the most hes scored in 06. He didnt learn anything new suddenly or display any talent that went away after that season.

He just had the greenest light possible.

06 Kobe and 09 Kobe are not just totally different levels of basketball. Its having a different set of teammates.

You tell 01 Kobe he can shoot 30 times a game for 3 months hes gonna do numbers. I never thought it was that big a deal. Swingmen were just eating the league up. Lebron 31ppg, Ai got to 33/7, Arenas 30ppg Redd like 27 Kevin Martin 25 or so...Melo 29 I think.

Odd few years.

[rhythmic]

Really, Id say 96 Jordan and 06 Kobe are pretty evenm 06 Kobe might be a bit better. 06 Kobe on the 96 Bulls would probably look a lot lioe 08 Kobe, but with a bit higher volume and efficiency of scoring. Jordan was probably the better defender. In fact in some ways 96 was his best defensive year, in that he really didnt gamble or overplay guys on defense.

Jordan was a better defense in 96' then Kobe in 06'.
Kobe was a better defender in 01', 03' & 08' then Jordan in 96', IMO.

But Kobe's offensive game in 06' was clearly superior to Jordan's in 96'.

[IGOTGAME]

Dominance isnt scoring 39 points in a loss. Its being a great scorer who took 29 shots because his team isnt very good.

Kobe scored the most hes scored in 06. He didnt learn anything new suddenly or display any talent that went away after that season.

He just had the greenest light possible.

06 Kobe and 09 Kobe are not just totally different levels of basketball. Its having a different set of teammates.

You tell 01 Kobe he can shoot 30 times a game for 3 months hes gonna do numbers. I never thought it was that big a deal. Swingmen were just eating the league up. Lebron 31ppg, Ai got to 33/7, Arenas 30ppg Redd like 27 Kevin Martin 25 or so...Melo 29 I think.

Odd few years.

Things did go away. He had a knee surgery the next season and was never the same athletically. Teams were able to guard him differently because he just couldn't make him pay the same way he could in 06.

[Segatti]

I think prime Kobe is better than second three peat Jordan, so yes, it's possible, but you never know.

[rhythmic]

Dominance isnt scoring 39 points in a loss. Its being a great scorer who took 29 shots because his team isnt very good.

Kobe scored the most hes scored in 06. He didnt learn anything new suddenly or display any talent that went away after that season.

He just had the greenest light possible.

06 Kobe and 09 Kobe are not just totally different levels of basketball. Its having a different set of teammates.

You tell 01 Kobe he can shoot 30 times a game for 3 months hes gonna do numbers. I never thought it was that big a deal. Swingmen were just eating the league up. Lebron 31ppg, Ai got to 33/7, Arenas 30ppg Redd like 27 Kevin Martin 25 or so...Melo 29 I think.

Odd few years.

Yes but he was dominant because he had the "greenest" light and still did damage on a consistent basis. The entire defensive scheme was about covering a single man, and yet for the entire season he torched teams every damn night.

Doing that in an era where zone defense is implemented was incredible. So yes, he did dominate the league that year with his scoring.

And please be more educated next time. If I give you 40 shots or lets say Marbury or Francis, and asked them to score 35 PPG like Kobe did, WHILE having the entire team knowing that damn well and putting 3/4 guys on him behind the 3 point arc, would they be able to do that?

**** no, and you know that damn well Jordan groupie.

[magnax1]

Dominance isnt scoring 39 points in a loss. Its being a great scorer who took 29 shots because his team isnt very good.

Kobe scored the most hes scored in 06. He didnt learn anything new suddenly or display any talent that went away after that season.

He just had the greenest light possible.

06 Kobe and 09 Kobe are not just totally different levels of basketball. Its having a different set of teammates.

You tell 01 Kobe he can shoot 30 times a game for 3 months hes gonna do numbers. I never thought it was that big a deal. Swingmen were just eating the league up. Lebron 31ppg, Ai got to 33/7, Arenas 30ppg Redd like 27 Kevin Martin 25 or so...Melo 29 I think.

Odd few years.
While its true he had a green light unlike any other year, he just wasnt as dominant scoring wise any other year (excluding part of 07) He both shot his highest scoring volume and efficiency of his career up to that point in 06. He definitely broke through in a sense that year, going from a great player to a legit MVP caliber player.

[Crystallas]

Was Phil on the court? So, no, he didn't keep Rodman in check.

Dennis respected MJ, whereas he didn't respect David Robinson when he was on the Spurs. And I didn't say anything about Kobe keeping Artest in check.

Uhhh no.


Nobody kept Rodman "in check". That is exactly why he behaved. The Spurs babysat Dennis, the Bulls didn't. You might have a few moments where players grabbed Dennis before he went off, but that is how teammates treat each other, regardless if you are Dennis or anyone.

[tpols]

Rodman was a nut job that wasn't always "there". Pippen could be mentally weak at times. Kukoc was inconsistent.

They played "their roles" sure, but lets not underestimate the impact MJ had on getting them to understand their roles.

He commanded respect.

Kobe, for whatever reason, IMO just isn't able to get the same level of belief out of his teammates.

You put Rodman on a Kobe team and he's probably going crazy by game 40.

The fact that Phil constantly had to butt heads with Kobe all the time and you never really hear that about MJ, who bought in to Phil's system absolutely by 1991.
Again Rodman isn't Shaq. Rodman is kind of like artest. Another crazy guy who didn't go crazy by game 40.. And actually played great for LA for a few years and has nothing but respect for kobe.

So that theory gone..


Problem isn't MJ or Kobe butting heads with Phil.. Again the problem is Shaq. He wasn't geared up for the regular season any way you want to slice it. He's known to have a big, fragile ego and wouldn't take shit from anybody. MJ wasn't going to make Shaq his pippen. Playoff dominance through sheer talent sure.. That other stuff is way out there though

[KG215]

I love Pau, but lets be honest here.
What exactly has he achieved before coming to LA?
Is it really unfair for me to say Kobe influenced Pau signficantly?
In terms of getting the most out of his talents? In terms of playing with heart, passion & intensity?
Again, this goes back to assuming Pau didn't grow and mature as a player from his last year in Memphis through the Lakers second championship in 2010. He was at an age players generally grow in those areas and improve their overall floor game. I've never said Kobe's influence had nothing to do with that, but I also feel that it's disingenuous to use "0-12 before Kobe" as evidence of the type of player Pau really was in LA.

But yes, obviously playing with Kobe made life easier on him and I'm sure Kobe helped him mature to some extent, too. But just because a player failed as a 1st option (even though his supporting casts in Memphis were never anything more than average at best) doesn't mean he's that same player in a 2nd option role. Pau obviously thrived in that role and was arguably the best 2nd option on a contender during the Lakers run to 3 straight Finals.


I don't know, 0-12 in the playoffs just sounds pathetic to me.
He was under the shadow before teaming up with Kobe, and in a span of half a decade he became a 1st ballot HOF.
I've never claimed he was a 1st ballot HOFer. I think he'll eventually get into the HOF, though.


Let me remind you that the Bulls won 54 games without Jordan; and 3 players from that roster made the All-Star squad. If you seriously don't think that Pippen (as a leader) was significantly better then Pau (as a leader in Memphis) by a ****ing mile, then you truly are riding Jordan's jock strap.
Well, you might have a reason to be pissed off if I've even sorta kinda insinuated that, but I haven't.

[Kblaze8855]

While its true he had a green light unlike any other year, he just wasnt as dominant scoring wise any other year (excluding part of 07) He both shot his highest scoring volume and efficiency of his career up to that point in 06. He definitely broke through in a sense that year, going from a great player to a legit MVP caliber player.


Kobe was that in 03 if not 01. Far as the shooting...ill explain my thoughts on that with an unrelated post I made on Jordan vs Bird:



The "Yea he could shoot more to score more but he wouldnt shoot as well" case is the obvious one to make...but not to someone like me who doesnt need to see their numbers to judge them....because I sat there and saw it live. At times live in person.

For players on their level the numbers are pretty much what they decide to make them. I dont care any more that Bird scored 21-25 a game some years than I care that Jordan didnt score over 35 after the 80s even though he was just as good a scorer or better. It means NOTHING to me. At all.


If you look at how Bird(and Jordan) scored it should be clear that they could shoot more...and shoot a better percentage because of it. The Bird I remember was pretty much chilling taking shots as they came and going long stretches without actually setting out to create his own shot to score in a real isolation situation. If he just set out to get and make a shot...not to run offense and get guys open and take long jumpers and all....if he just decided to go score...he could easily shoot more and shoot better.

Jordan was the same way. He shot better putting up 35 a game than he did putting up 30. And it wasnt as simple as defenses getting a little better(though they did). He played more team ball. If Jordan or Bird set out to just make a shot for themselves 15 times a game and take 10 more in the flow they probably shoot better on those 25 shots than if they play in the flow and take 20 shots.

It wasnt by chance Bird shot the highest percentages of his career when he shot the most. he shot 52 and 53% in his highest shot attempt seasons.

Attacking Bird scores at a better rate than passive "one of the guys" bird just like attacking jordan did.

If Bird knows his team needs him to go out and score his ass off he could easily score more...and he wouldnt be shooting worse to do it. More of his shots would be on the block, and triple threat jumpers, and going across the lane than the 19 footers and quick shots that lowered his percentages.

I dont believe bird was incapable of doing late 80s Jordan scoring numbers any more than i believe first 3 peat jordan couldnt score 35-37 a game like 80s jordan did.

But we cant really discuss that too deeply because you arent talking about ability to apply skills to scoring. you are talking about shit like true shooting percentages and such because thats what people argue with...because people for the most part dont know what they are talking about and numbers cant be debated.

It makes it...simple. but I dont do simple at the expense of what I can see.

And ive seen Bird play within the flow of the offense for 30 minutes then just as I thought we would win....stop...and go one on one 4-5 times in a row and make 3 shots and get fouled on another and make the FTs to beat us.

He...like most great scorers....could score much more and on high percentages if they chose to(or needed to) disregard their teammates.

Guys like Jordan...bird...even Kobe, AI, and Gervin...all of them could shoot better than they do/did...if they just set out to get themselves the best shot again and again.


But playing in an offense...especially an offense with other capable players....it limits your reason to do that. So more of your shots end up being less effective jumpers or quick moves that wont work at the rate that a guy like Bird...or Jordan..or....Pierce...or a lot of guys...can really score.

Guys like Bird dont shoot 48% because some guy can stop them over half the time. And Jordan didnt shoot what he shot in the 90s because only half the time(or less) could he make the shot were he just working into the best position to score and then shooting/attacking like he did in the 80s.

They shoot what they shoot as much because of their team and the offense as anything.

Birds great teammates kept defenses honest...at the same time they greatly limited his chances to really set out to just make basket after basket as he was more than capable of.

So in the end...I dont care what his numbers were.

Similar thing with Kobe.

If Kobe set out to score on you....didnt wait to see how the play unfolds. Just decides hes gonna score...hes gonna do so at a rate better than he will playing passive.

Aggressive Kobe is harder to stop than one of the guys Kobe.

[IGOTGAME]

I think people underestimate how much Kobe lost with that knee surgery after after 06.

[rhythmic]

Again, this goes back to assuming Pau didn't grow and mature as a player from his last year in Memphis through the Lakers second championship in 2010. He was at an age players generally grow in those areas and improve their overall floor game. I've never said Kobe's influence had nothing to do with that, but I also feel that it's disingenuous to use "0-12 before Kobe" as evidence of the type of player Pau really was in LA.

But yes, obviously playing with Kobe made life easier on him and I'm sure Kobe helped him mature to some extent, too. But just because a player failed as a 1st option (even though his supporting casts in Memphis were never anything more than average at best) doesn't mean he's that same player in a 2nd option role. Pau obviously thrived in that role and was arguably the best 2nd option on a contender during the Lakers run to 3 straight Finals.


I've never claimed he was a 1st ballot HOFer. I think he'll eventually get into the HOF, though.


Well, you might have a reason to be pissed off if I've even sorta kinda insinuated that, but I haven't.

Of course we can only assume.
But in 08' Gasol played fantastic in the playoffs and had a pretty high win-share. That was the same year he was traded, he had such a sudden transformation?

I personally think it had more to do with Kobe motivating & pushing Pau to be the best he can & of course having Kobe command so much attention that it was easier for Pau to play well.

[Soundwave]

Again Rodman isn't Shaq. Rodman is kind of like artest. Another crazy guy who didn't go crazy by game 40.. And actually played great for LA for a few years and has nothing but respect for kobe.

So that theory gone..


Problem isn't MJ or Kobe butting heads with Phil.. Again the problem is Shaq. He wasn't geared up for the regular season any way you want to slice it. He's known to have a big, fragile ego and wouldn't take shit from anybody. MJ wasn't going to make Shaq his pippen. Playoff dominance through sheer talent sure.. That other stuff is way out there though

Kobe is a great player, no doubt, but I think it's obvious there is something about his game and/or personality that still to this day rubs teammates the wrong way.

In his 15th season or whatever we're still having this discussion about whether he needed to defer a little more to Dwight and why the Lakers are underperforming, etc. The fact that that's even an issue, I mean we can continue to blame Shaq and Dwight and Gasol and Malone/Payton, but at some point maybe there is just some truth Kobe being at fault for some of it too.

And Artest is a choir boy compared to Rodman, Jordan would've loved to have played with Artest.

Talent is one thing, but Jordan and Kobe impact their teammates in very different ways I think, as much as Kobe has tried to pattern his game after Jordan he's never been able to command the same respect from all his teammates.

Every year or two there seems to be some new issue with the Lakers and Kobe's role on the team versus some other player or that he suddenly needs more help and his teammates are suddenly worthless, etc. etc.

MJ bought into Phil's system by 1991 and never really had any hiccups after that, he fully embraced Rodman coming to the team and taking some of the spotlight away from him.

[magnax1]

I get what you're saying, and I agree in part, but its much more situational than just "Kobe could shoot more and still score as efficiently if he wanted" Ill elaborate when I get home. Im on a phone right now and its a pain to type out more than a few sentences.

[tpols]

Again, this goes back to assuming Pau didn't grow and mature as a player from his last year in Memphis through the Lakers second championship in 2010. He was at an age players generally grow in those areas and improve their overall floor game. I've never said Kobe's influence had nothing to do with that, but I also feel that it's disingenuous to use "0-12 before Kobe" as evidence of the type of player Pau really was in LA.

Its not saying that Pau sucks.. but you hear in these threads from jordan groupies that Kobe never made his teammates better, never was a good leader, always shot jacking taking away from others and diminishing their potential..

Where as Jordan is some god like figure who only had to raise his hand softly, lift his chin, and slowly close his eyes and everyone would bow down and follow his all knowing lead.


Fact is, Pau never did a damn thing without Kobe and his absolute best years came working inside and out with Kobe. He absolutely blew the lid off his potential in LAs triangle.

If Pau stayed in Memphis his whole career he wouldve been a 20/10 ish multiple all star type in the bosh, amare, brand, zbo tier never really going anywhere(again if he was always the best player on the team). He wouldve been a footnote in history. But because he played in a system that granted him a much more comfortable role with less defensive pressure and less offensive burden and with a player who genuinely worked with him for a handful of years.. he was able to break through his cieling and become an all time great player.

He was none of that off LA..

[rhythmic]

Kobe is a great player, no doubt, but I think it's obvious there is something about his game and/or personality that still to this day rubs teammates the wrong way.

In his 15th season or whatever we're still having this discussion about whether he needed to defer a little more to Dwight and why the Lakers are underperforming, etc. The fact that that's even an issue, I mean we can continue to blame Shaq and Dwight and Gasol and Malone/Payton, but at some point maybe there is just some truth Kobe being at fault for some of it too.

And Artest is a choir boy compared to Rodman, Jordan would've loved to have played with Artest.

Talent is one thing, but Jordan and Kobe impact their teammates in very different ways I think, as much as Kobe has tried to pattern his game after Jordan he's never been able to command the same respect from all his teammates.

Every year or two there seems to be some new issue with the Lakers and Kobe's role on the team versus some other player or that he suddenly needs more help and his teammates are suddenly worthless, etc. etc.

MJ bought into Phil's system by 1991 and never really had any hiccups after that, he fully embraced Rodman coming to the team and taking some of the spotlight away from him.

Bunch of bullshit, if you ask me.
Only Shaq & Dwight had problems with Kobe; all 3 of them have a huge ego, but probably smaller then Jordan's ego.

After all the shit Pau had to deal with the last 3-4 years in LA, he is still here and loves it here. He loves Kobe and has openly praised him countless times. Lamar Odom was near damn suicidal after LA traded him and has never recovered from his departure. Guy won 6th MOTY and the next year just vanished. Has he ever complained about Kobe??

Shaq has a huge ego, and even though him & Kobe clashed heads they still won 3 straight titles. So they had to have some sort of chemistry to do that well. Howard? Well, it's the same clown that got his coach fired and put all his teammates in Orlando on blast. So he's near damn irrelevant.

Your entire post is completely fabricated. Just stupid opinions.
Kobe played with Pau, a perfect 2nd option and they always have had a great relationship. Jordan never had to play with another legit 1st option (like Shaq) so we don't know how good of a "teammate" he is. He had arguably the best 2nd option of all-time by his side his entire career. He never had rough patches with his teammates because he was always the leader.

Problem with Howard/Shaq is that they wanted to lead, and so did Kobe.
Jordan was never in that type of situation, so why compare them?

[tpols]

Kobe is a great player, no doubt, but I think it's obvious there is something about his game and/or personality that still to this day rubs teammates the wrong way.

In his 15th season or whatever we're still having this discussion about whether he needed to defer a little more to Dwight and why the Lakers are underperforming, etc. The fact that that's even an issue, I mean we can continue to blame Shaq and Dwight and Gasol and Malone/Payton, but at some point maybe there is just some truth Kobe being at fault for some of it too.

And Artest is a choir boy compared to Rodman, Jordan would've loved to have played with Artest.

Talent is one thing, but Jordan and Kobe impact their teammates in very different ways I think, as much as Kobe has tried to pattern his game after Jordan he's never been able to command the same respect from all his teammates.

Every year or two there seems to be some new issue with the Lakers and Kobe's role on the team versus some other player or that he suddenly needs more help and his teammates are suddenly worthless, etc. etc.

MJ bought into Phil's system by 1991 and never really had any hiccups after that, he fully embraced Rodman coming to the team and taking some of the spotlight away from him.
You still have yet to address what I said about Shaq..

Jordan defintely was a better leader than Kobe.. more charismatic.. full of real confidence, but again none of that is going to matter with Shaq. He alwasy did things his own way and was entering his prime where he could finally win and get some individual respect/glory. you have still yet to explain how he would get Shaq to hustle extra hard in the regular season all year long.

Just a bunch of vague generalizations with no answer here

[305Baller]

You still have yet to address what I said about Shaq..

Jordan defintely was a better leader than Kobe.. more charismatic.. full of real confidence, but again none of that is going to matter with Shaq. And you have still yet to explain how he would get Shaq to hustle extra hard in the regular season all year long.

Just a bunch of vague generalizations with no answer here

there can be no real answer.

http://i.imgur.com/2mjrMNN.gif

[TheMarkMadsen]

It's crazy that some people put Gasol in the same class as Pippen

Pippen almost took a team to the finals twice. One as the undisputed best player and another while he was still a high level player.

[Nevaeh]

Prime / Peak Kobe is winning rings with these Bulls squads:

'94
'96
'97

Every other year required some unique MJ moment of pure heart, will, determination or domination that Kobe never reached in the playoffs.

I doubt they win as many regular season games in '96 and '97 though. Definitely win more with him replacing Pete Myers in '94. That team needed an elite scorer and closer to beat NYC.

Um, 97 Finals seemed to require a bit of "heart, will, and determination" also, with the "flu" game, and Jordan scoring 39 points in the deciding game 6 that the bulls only won by 4 points or so.

Seriously Swish, for someone who comes off as a confident analyst of the game, you sure act like you haven't watched too many of them sometimes.

:oldlol:

Always enjoy reading you though,.

:cheers:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Um, 97 Finals seemed to require a bit of "heart, will, and determination" also, with the "flu" game, and Jordan scoring 39 points in the deciding game 6 that the bulls only won by 4 points or so.

Seriously Swish, for someone who comes off as a confident analyst of the game, you sure act like you haven't watched too many of them sometimes.

:oldlol:

Always enjoy reading you though,.

:cheers:
You question my legitimacy, bruh?

Forgot about that Finals performance for some reason. Odd considering it's one of the most memorable performances of all time. MJ overcoming hangover and being poisoned by Utah pizza joint.

Epic destroying of mormonville. You're right though. So are we agreeing Kobe wins with'94 and '96 squad? Matching his reality based ring total as alpha and leader of the Lakers?

You need to take back those comments though :P

[TheReal Kendall]

It's crazy that some people put Gasol in the same class as Pippen

Pippen almost took a team to the finals twice. One as the undisputed best player and another while he was still a high level player.

People here underrates Pippen a lot on here.

I'm not saying he was MJ's equal but he was damn close and they were on the same team.

Pippen was probably the only man that could guard MJ

[Doranku]

They win 60-65 games instead of 72. They probabloy lose to Orlando or Seattle. People don't realize that Kobe's style of play, especially in '06, isn't as conducive to team basketball as Jordan's is, thus the offense wouldn't run as smoothly. It's not about numbers, it's about style of play. Jordan was playing a championship brand of ball while Kobe was not.

And yes, '96 Jordan was better than '06 Kobe. Better numbers, better defensively, and did so within a team context on a championship level team.

...Huh?

You're saying that if you replace '96 Jordan with Peak Kobe, they're going to lose to a Magic team missing Horace Grant that the Bulls w/ MJ swept by an average of like 10+ points a game?

Or that they'd lose to Seattle where Jordan had one of his worst playoff series' ever?

Please explain.

[Nevaeh]

You question my legitimacy, bruh?

Forgot about that Finals performance for some reason. Odd considering it's one of the most memorable performances of all time. MJ overcoming hangover and being poisoned by Utah pizza joint.

Epic destroying of mormonville. You're right though. So are we agreeing Kobe wins with'94 and '96 squad? Matching his reality based ring total as alpha and leader of the Lakers?

You need to take back those comments though :P


Nah, we're good Swish. I was just making an observation, that's all. You have a tendency to say 2 opposing things at the same time. Hey, we all have our "trademarks", or styles here at ISH so it's all good.

Yeah I brought up the 97 run, because it's most memorable for me, being that it's one of the few games (gm 6) that I taped "live" at the time, so I still watch it like a "movie" once in a while.

If you recall, Jordan was scoring most of his points "Durant style", where you think he's just doing a little bit of this and that, and before you know it, you realize that he was dominating the game the whole time. That version of MJ was, to me, the smoothest, most unshakable version of Jordan during the second 3 peat.

And yes, He was coming up big during that whole series. Remember his game winner and fist pump/ Pippen hug in game 1? Come on man, you can't be THAT old now.

:D

Edit:

As for Kobe in those other 2 years, it honestly depends on how much he buys into Phil's team system, and how he deals with playing in a more physical style of game, as opposed to the style he faced in '06. Where as Jordan seemed to relish in proving a point against physical defenses, Kobe has a tendency to be shaken by them. And as history has proven, he seems to run out of steam in the Finals, where as Jordan seemed to become more focused.

[sportjames23]

Uhhh no.


Nobody kept Rodman "in check". That is exactly why he behaved. The Spurs babysat Dennis, the Bulls didn't. You might have a few moments where players grabbed Dennis before he went off, but that is how teammates treat each other, regardless if you are Dennis or anyone.


Uhhh yeah. Dennis respected MJ. He respected Phil, too, just like he respected Chuck Daly and Isaiah Thomas. Yeah, Phil and Chuck let him be himself, but MJ and Isaiah checked him on the court.

[sportjames23]

It's crazy that some people put Gasol in the same class as Pippen

Pippen almost took a team to the finals twice. One as the undisputed best player and another while he was still a high level player.


Scottie did no such thing. The Bulls only got to--EVERYONE PAY ATTENTION because I'm tired of people repeating this fallacy--the SECOND ROUND in 1994. The weren't close to the Finals that year. I don't know why people keep repeating that bullshit.

Scottie's Bulls lost in Round 2 to the Knicks. NOT the Eastern Conference Finals, the Eastern Conference Semifinals.

As for him in Portland, that team was stacked and they still couldn't beat the Lakers.

[sportjames23]

People here underrates Pippen a lot on here.

I'm not saying he was MJ's equal but he was damn close and they were on the same team.

Pippen was probably the only man that could guard MJ


Not according to what's been said about their practices.

[chazzy]

You think he would be shooting that many shots on a good team? He tapers down his aggression depending on how well his teammates are. If you replace their best player with the 2nd best player ever at his position and they don't even make the finals, then maybe they aren't the greatest team ever

[funnystuff]

It's crazy that some people put Gasol in the same class as Pippen

Pippen almost took a team to the finals twice. One as the undisputed best player and another while he was still a high level player.
Pau should of been the FMVP of 2010, in no years was Pippen the "should of been FMVP"

[sekachu]

Do the Bulls still win 70+ games? Can Kobe keep Rodman in check? Do they make it to the Finals and win it all?




The bulls won't win 70 with 06kobe. He didn't have the type of leadership and intangible influence that MJ had. He wouldn't be the same offensive player in 96 due to more physical than in 06.

[sekachu]

...Huh?

You're saying that if you replace '96 Jordan with Peak Kobe, they're going to lose to a Magic team missing Horace Grant that the Bulls w/ MJ swept by an average of like 10+ points a game?

Or that they'd lose to Seattle where Jordan had one of his worst playoff series' ever?

Please explain.



If you compare 96 final stats to other previous years, sure that is one of his worst. In fact, he played well enough in final if you watched the game. He didn't force shots when he wasn't shooting well. He played defense, help pick and roll, create shot for his team which 06kobe was still learning it.

[305Baller]

Im not sure they get passed the Sonics without Jordan's leadership.

[tpols]

If you compare 96 final stats to other previous years, sure that is one of his worst. In fact, he played well enough in final if you watched the game. He didn't force shots when he wasn't shooting well. He played defense, help pick and roll, create shot for his team which 06kobe was still learning it.

Again..


You think he would be shooting that many shots on a good team? He tapers down his aggression depending on how well his teammates are. If you replace their best player with the 2nd best player ever at his position and they don't even make the finals, then maybe they aren't the greatest team ever

It's just not true that kobe didn't know how to facilitate or get his teammates involved before 2008.. The first thing he had to learn in his early years was how to set up Shaq and work the triangle. He was designated facilitator to start a lot of games.

And he played his best defense before 06 so I don't know what you mean by the bold.

[ProfessorMurder]

Pippen and Rodman wouldn't listen to or defer to Kobe.

[The Choken One]

Pippen and Rodman wouldn't listen to or defer to Kobe.
Thank you for you definitive answer, Nostradamus.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Pippen and Rodman wouldn't listen to or defer to Kobe.


Dennis Rodman agrees skip to about 52 seconds left in the video

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-sTlxfIEx2I&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D-sTlxfIEx2I

[secund2nun]

They would not even make the finals with Kobe.

Pippen and Rodman were great, but not that much of scorers. So you would need a super efficient wing like MJ, not a ineffecient chucker like Kobe.

[chazzy]

They would not even make the finals with Kobe.

Pippen and Rodman were great, but not that much of scorers. So you would need a super efficient wing like MJ, not a ineffecient chucker like Kobe.
96 Jordan shot around 56 TS% in the playoffs

[andgar923]

Prime / Peak Kobe is winning rings with these Bulls squads:

'94
'96
'97

Every other year required some unique MJ moment of pure heart, will, determination or domination that Kobe never reached in the playoffs.

I doubt they win as many regular season games in '96 and '97 though. Definitely win more with him replacing Pete Myers in '94. That team needed an elite scorer and closer to beat NYC.

No version of Kobe is winning with that Bulls team.

He wouldn't have a big man, specially in a big man heavy era.

His numbers would suffer even more because of it. Pip's role would be dimished since he'd want to have the ball at all times. Kobe isn't as good as MJ in the block no matter what his fans say. He also isn't as good moving without the ball (he basically camps out in the 3pt region 80% of the game).

Defensively the Bulls wouldn't be nowhere the same… .not close. It would be Pip trying to do all the work and eventually give up. Do people expect Bean to even attempt to play defense as consistently as MJ did?

Another thing, Mj played defense in an era and against players that cut and moved without the ball. He had to go through multiple screens, Kobe aint doing that, Kobe rarely closes out now that players are standing still. It would be a joke.

No big man
Pip's offensive role diminishes
Pip gets frustrated with Kobe (gives up)
Kobe's lack of defense

They lose in the playoffs early, let alone not coming close to 72 wins.

[andgar923]

As far as Rodman is concerned

[chazzy]

Dat nostalgia

[andgar923]

Dat nostalgia
Dat blind love and stupidity

[The-Legend-24]

Put 03 Kobe on that 96 Bulls team, and they win 75+ games.

The 90's were a weak era, Kobe easily wins with all those Bulls teams.

[andgar923]

Put 03 Kobe on that 96 Bulls team, and they win 75+ games.

The 90's were a weak era, Kobe easily wins with all those Bulls teams.

LOLLLL

You guys are funny

[tpols]

Dat blind love and stupidity
Oh the Fvcking irony:oldlol:

[Soundwave]

Put 03 Kobe on that 96 Bulls team, and they win 75+ games.

The 90's were a weak era, Kobe easily wins with all those Bulls teams.

03 Kobe won 50 games on the Lakers that year, he's not magically winning 75 on the Bulls, lol.

You'd have to give him Shaq + Magic + Bird + Pippen on his team for him to sniff 75.

[SamuraiSWISH]

[QUOTE=andgar923]No version of Kobe is winning with that Bulls team.

He wouldn't have a big man, specially in a big man heavy era.

His numbers would suffer even more because of it. Pip's role would be dimished since he'd want to have the ball at all times. Kobe isn't as good as MJ in the block no matter what his fans say. He also isn't as good moving without the ball (he basically camps out in the 3pt region 80% of the game).

Defensively the Bulls wouldn't be nowhere the same

[andgar923]

Oh the Fvcking irony:oldlol:

Sure

Just happens that the vast majority of the world happens to agree with almost everything I state about MJ, and only Kobe fans agree with what you morons believe.

Gotcha

[Trollsmasher]

Not sure about 70 wins, but they definitely win it all. There really was not much of a competition in '96 and the shortened three point line combined with a weak defenses makes it for me.

[tpols]

Sure

Just happens that the vast majority of the world happens to agree with almost everything I state about MJ, and only Kobe fans agree with what you morons believe.

Gotcha
Bulls make second round without MJ.. That's how good they were. You're saying if they totally upgrade at SG from nobody to the second best SG of all time and they somehow lose at the same spot or worse:oldlol:

Makes noo sense.. Kobe hogged from Shaq because he felt he wasn't getting any credit. Same wouldn't happen with pippen. He would never chuck out of insecurity with an unselfish do it all facilitator like pippen. So what you're saying makes no sense.. Just am expression of your deep love for MJ and disdain for the guy people have been praising as the next..


What's with this myth that kobe never played defense? In 06 he had to carry the whole offense so he didn't expend as much energy on D.. but in 08, 00-03, he went hard on defense because he had stacked enough teams to the point where he could play both ends effectively.. On the Bulls he would have plenty of offensive support.

Kobe has played in the same sets as Jordan.. Under the same coach.. Acting like he couldn't mesh with a team and everyone would automatically hate him.. That is a reflection of your own personal bias and emotion

[Soundwave]

Not sure about 70 wins, but they definitely win it all. There really was not much of a competition in '96 and the shortened three point line combined with a weak defenses makes it for me.

'96 Magic are better than any team the Heat faced this year. Probably the '96 Sonics too. Knicks were generally tough too. I think the '96 Magic would win the title in this year's NBA ... fairly easily at that.

[chazzy]

Dat blind love and stupidity
Forgot to include those as well

[andgar923]

Bulls make second round without MJ.. That's how good they were. You're saying if they totally upgrade at SG from nobody to the second best SG of all time and they somehow lose at the same spot or worse:oldlol:

Makes noo sense.. Kobe hogged from Shaq because he felt he wasn't getting any credit. Same wouldn't happen with pippen. He would never chuck out of insecurity with an unselfish do it all facilitator like pippen. So what you're saying makes no sense.. Just am expression of your deep love for MJ and disdain for the guy people have been praising as the next..


What's with this myth that kobe never played defense? In 06 he had to carry the whole offense so he didn't expend as much energy on D.. but in 08, 00-03, he went hard on defense because he had stacked enough teams to the point where he could play both ends effectively.. On the Bulls he would have plenty of offensive support.

Kobe has played in the same sets as Jordan.. Under the same coach.. Acting like he couldn't mesh with a team and everyone would automatically hate him.. That is a reflection of your own personal bias and emotion

LOL you obviously try to hard, and get emotional.

You can't transplant a player and put him in the same situation and expect the same outcome or better, because they were different players. They had similar traits but they approached the game differently.

Their chemistry wouldn't be the same, shit the Lakers are ALWAYS going through drama. Pip and Rodman aren't Gasol, they'd demand for a trade. You acting as if Kobe's never thrown his teammates under the bus, I can easily see Rodman just not showing up to games.

Kobe does not play in the post, even if they run similar sets, Kobe doesn't spend much time down there. Shit, he just started doing that more this year than he ever has.

Do you even watch Kobe play or just gawk at him?

He's LAZY on defense, always has been. Foo doesn't even close out 90% of the time, is always late on rotations, doesn't fight through screens etc.etc.

Kobe has blasted his point guards, he finally gets a true PG and guess what? he still needs to have the ball in his hands for most of the game. Pip aint just gonna stand there and watch Kobe heave a contested 3pt shot that bricks. Rodman wil love it tho, more offensive rebounds for him :lol Rodman will be averaging 10 offensive rebounds per game playing with him.

Phil even during their championship years demanded to trade KOBE!!!

:lol :lol

He gave up coaching him a number of times during the regular season as well, you really think they'd win without a Luc as their big man?

Get a clue

They just sneak by with Gasol in a weak big man era, he aint winning shit in a big man filled era.

He had a hard time guarding Miller who was about to retire, he has a hard time guarding players that move around like Rip, he can't guard Horny, prime Miller, or damn near every player from that era because they actually ran sets and not just play one on one all game. He also wouldn't have Shaq or a big man in the paint to cover up his mistakes. You think Rodman is a shot blocker?

Go to sleep boy

[andgar923]

Kobe couldn't even control Bynum and ya'll expect him to control Rodman? :lol :lol :lol

Do people not forget that he's given Phil his biggest losing streaks?

That Gasol has tuned him out and not given a f*ck about playing?

Then you have moments in which Artest refuses to pass him the ball.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

He ran away the most dominant player of our era.

You guys expect Pip to stick around? Rodman to even show up to games?

Did people forget Mike Brown benching Kobe?

Howard throwing shots at him?

Ya'll seriously think he can simply step into Mj's shoes and win? he aint even winning his teammate's respect, they're not going to war for him, ya'll serious?

[eliteballer]

Kobe would average 50 a game with the short 3 point line.

[andgar923]

Kobe would average 50 a game with the short 3 point line.
:lol :lol :lol

YOu mean more like 50 3pt shot attempts

[eliteballer]

Your the dude who said Rik Smits was better than Dwight...:lol

[tpols]

Andgar.. Literally nothing in your post makes sense. Totally incoherent with all those smilies.

How drunk are you right now?



Lakers had drama with Kobe Shaq.. Phil said Kobe was uncoachable because he stopped listening to him and started chucking when Shaq was getting all the glory.

Thing is pippen was not a better player naturally than Kobe. Shaq was. Pippen wasn't. So he wouldn't have the same insecurity issues he had with shaq with pippen.


Kobe recently.. For about four or more years, has not cared much about defense. He'll take an assignment here and there to prove he can still do it, but as far as consistency he's burnt out on it. Back when he actually built his defensive name, Kobe got after it on defense. Playing with a perimeter guy like pippen watching him play defense would probably inspire Kobe.. He'd take it as a challenge matching what pippen could do.

And the Rodman stuff is just bs.. Kobe played with metta, another crazy who used to hate Kobe when he was back on the Rockets and kings.. And then after playing with him nothing but respect.

Matt Barnes, ariza, metta, hell LA tried to get raja bell this past season(or was it 2012?).. Bunch of perimeter defenders that supposedly hated Kobe and his chucking, but went out of their way to play with him.

Players in the NBA have much much much more respect for kobe than you do.. You're just a biased Jordan homer whose opinion means little outside of a small circle on a message board.

Competitive types gravitate towards Kobe while softer passive types tend to shy away and resent. Rodman and pippen were as competitive as it gets.




And LOL at Kobe can't play in the post.. He's one of the most skilled midrange post guys ever. His skillet and shooting spots are the same as Jordans.. He wasn't quite as good as Jordan but who was? He was better than damn near everyone else.

Gtfo with your bullshit dude.

[andgar923]

Andgar.. Literally nothing in your post makes sense. Totally incoherent with all those smilies.

How drunk are you right now?



Lakers had drama with Kobe Shaq.. Phil said Kobe was uncoachable because he stopped listening to him and started chucking when Shaq was getting all the glory.

Thing is pippen was not a better player naturally than Kobe. Shaq was. Pippen wasn't. So he wouldn't have the same insecurity issues he had with shaq with pippen.


Kobe recently.. For about four or more years, has not cared much about defense. He'll take an assignment here and there to prove he can still do it, but as far as consistency he's burnt out on it. Back when he actually built his defensive name, Kobe got after it on defense. Playing with a perimeter guy like pippen watching him play defense would probably inspire Kobe.. He'd take it as a challenge matching what pippen could do.

And the Rodman stuff is just bs.. Kobe played with metta, another crazy who used to hate Kobe when he was back on the Rockets and kings.. And then after playing with him nothing but respect.

Matt Barnes, ariza, metta, hell LA tried to get raja bell this past season(or was it 2012?).. Bunch of perimeter defenders that supposedly hated Kobe and his chucking, but went out of their way to play with him.

Players in the NBA have much much much more respect for kobe than you do.. You're just a biased Jordan homer whose opinion means little outside of a small circle on a message board.

Competitive types gravitate towards Kobe while softer passive types tend to shy away and resent. Rodman and pippen were as competitive as it gets.




And LOL at Kobe can't play in the post.. He's one of the most skilled midrange post guys ever. His skillet and shooting spots are the same as Jordans.. He wasn't quite as good as Jordan but who was? He was better than damn near everyone else.

Gtfo with your bullshit dude.

Denial runs strong with Kobe fans.

[andgar923]

Your the dude who said Rik Smits was better than Dwight...:lol

Oh so only when it's convenient for you Kobe fans is Howard any good?

Meh.. you guys think Kobe is top 5, nobody takes ya'll serious.

Ya'll would take him over Magic… Laker fans (true Laker fans) hide in shame.

Kobe fans are the laughing stock of the sports world and have been for years.

[tpols]

Denial runs strong with Kobe fans.
Just reality brother:cheers:

You can choose to believe what you want though.. Even your fellow Jordan stans aren't as dumb and filled with hate as you are:oldlol:

[andgar923]

Just reality brother:cheers:

You can choose to believe what you want though.. Even your fellow Jordan stans aren't as dumb and filled with hate as you are:oldlol:

Hate?

There must be tons of haters then (if that's what you call reality).

When people criticize Kobe for obvious reasons the 'hate' card comes out.

Only parts of his game I questioned were the parts of his game that have always been criticized at times even from his own fan base. Yet I'm the 'hater'?

Yes Kobe is a good post player, but not the same as MJ and he doesn't operate from there at the same volume or level. Kobe is known to be notoriously bad at closing in, not trying hard on defense are you even gonna attempt to defend that?

I didn't bring up his one on one defense which can be good when he wants to be, but his consistency isn't there. And Kobe has always had a hard time guarding players that move are constantly moving, because he's well

[tpols]

Gasol gave up after he was pushed out of his comfort zone in the high post.. And replaced with the new golden child, finally healthy Andrew Bynum. From there his actual game fell apart. Kobe criticized him for no longer trying. So be it.

While he was in his role in the previous three years they made 3 straight Finals and won two chips together. There wasn't any hate between the two.. It was a situation that takes a couple sentences to explain. Not just.. A couple words, always Kobe's fault in your mind.


All of what you type is so skewed and out of touch with reality.. Like all Kobe's teammates hated him. He must've been REALLY good to win five rings with different casts coming and going every couple of years solely because they wanted to get away from him.

Imagine if they actually had respect and chemistry with him.. Would Kobe morph into bill Russell?

[Nevaeh]

Put 03 Kobe on that 96 Bulls team, and they win 75+ games.

The 90's were a weak era, Kobe easily wins with all those Bulls teams.

The 90s era didnt even see your boy starting on his own team. See, I was gonna be nice this weekend. But your "Stan Brigade" caused me to "Reality Check" y'all, once again. Don't You ever.....................ever, ever ever ever ever............... Forget that your boy couldn't even start in the "weak 90s...........MAN!!

[Indian guy]

When have Kobe-led teams ever demonstrated the night-to-night focus required to even challenge 70-wins? It seems like pretty much every season LA's being criticized for inconsistent effort. Since becoming the best player of his team in '03, Kobe has led LA to 1 60-win season in 11 seasons. One! And LA possessed 60-win talent for at least half of those seasons. Kobe neither possesses the leaderships skills nor the consistency in his own effort/level of play to lead a team to 70 wins. Championship? Sure, but he's not sniffing 70.

[Jacks3]

He got to 65 with Pau and a bunch of role-players but cant sniff 70?

lol ****ing idiot.

[Element]

They challanege 75+ wins

06 Kobe was tripled and doubled relentlessly and still completely dominated games with his scoring. His shot-making in that season was off any type of chart that the NBA had ever seen up to that point. He needed to score 37 a night during LA wins, that should probably do it for all those who say he "selfishly chucked up shots". Well what the fvck are you supposed to do if you see Smush Parker and Walton bricking consecutive open threes, Kwame blowing a dunk and Lamar having one of his 11/6/3 @ 36 FG% nights again?

Don't get me wrong Odom was good but he'd have three straight games with the aforementioned stat line and then three straight 20/11/5 nights. Dude just didn't have any semblance of consistency in his game.

Phil's gameplan was for Kobe to score as much as possible. The 96 Bulls had 3 better defensive players than anyone outside of Kobe in their starting lineup already in Pip, Dennis and Harper. The Lakers offense in 06 ranked 7th in the leauge, you think it was because of their bottom of the L 3PT shooting or his supporting cast? The Bulls on defense stay the same, since Kobe in his prime always played elite D when his offensive burden wasn't "average 37/5/6 or we lose". His average in losses is pretty telling, 33 @ 41 FG% which means LA only went as far as his scoring. That version of Kobe is more athletic than 96 MJ and a better scorer as he faced much more defensive pressure and still put up better numbers.

Having all the options the Bulls had, plus Pippen as a primary playmaker to relieve the pressure off of Kobe, don't you think he'd do well in that type of environment, at the peak of his abilities? Plus he'd be free to clear out for a
post up (Sorry MJ stans but Kobe has been Top 3 in PPS and Tops in shooting percentge since Synergy started counting them) under 96 rules. Any team back
in 06 attempting to play Kobe one on one resulted in a scoring binge. And them
there's the shortened 3pt line hahaha


They easily win it all. And they challenge 75 plus wins. And almost every player and coach in the league has deep respect for him and players that have hated him in the past like Artest, Barnes, Ariza and Raja Bell all went out of their way to try to play for his team.

[OldSchoolBBall]

'06 Kobe was better than '96 Jordan at both ends of the floor, so yes to 70+ wins and a title.

Err, no he wasn't.

Per 40 minutes:

Jordan: 32.3 pts/7.0 reb/4.6 ast/2.3 stl/.6 blk/49.5% FG/58.2% TS/29.4 PER/124 ORtg

Kobe: 35.3 pts/5.2 reb/4.2 ast/1.8 stl/.4 blk/45.0% FG/55.9% TS/28.0 PER/114 ORtg

Keep in mind that Jordan was doing this completely in the team context on a championship level team, while Kobe was just gunning for the best possible numbers. Defensively, it isn't even close and I won't dignify that assertion with a response.

[Jacks3]

They easily still win 70+. The 96 Bulls were insanely stacked.

Look at their offensive rebounding percentage. 36.9%! 6.3% higher than league average. LOL.

[Shade8780]

MJ was 32 in '96 and just past his prime, and Kobe was 27 in '06 hitting his prime. A better comparison would be 2011 Kobe on the '96 Bulls.

[OldSchoolBBall]

When have Kobe-led teams ever demonstrated the night-to-night focus required to even challenge 70-wins? It seems like pretty much every season LA's being criticized for inconsistent effort. Since becoming the best player of his team in '03, Kobe has led LA to 1 60-win season in 11 seasons. One! And LA possessed 60-win talent for at least half of those seasons. Kobe neither possesses the leaderships skills nor the consistency in his own effort/level of play to lead a team to 70 wins. Championship? Sure, but he's not sniffing 70.

Disagree that they win a title, but your other points are spot on. Even looking past the focus/leadership deficit for Kobe as compared to Jordan, he was just a much more erratic player. Higher variance. Could go for 45 on 16-26 FG on night and then 20-24 pts on 8-27 FG the next two games. This doesn't lend itself well to consistency on a team. When a team doesn't know what to expect from you on any given night, that team is less effective.

[Carbine]

Nobody knows what would happen, but I think the Bulls would be well positioned to win a title.

The version of '06 Laker Kobe we remember is not the same version that would have been had he played on a championship caliber team. He would be more in line with '08 Kobe except a little better.

[RRR3]

Damn Jordan put up 30/7/4/2/1 on 50/43/83 that year :bowdown: at age 32 :applause:

Followed up with 31/5/4/2 on 46/40/82 in the playoffs. :applause:

[MaxFly]

They would likely win a title.

[rhythmic]

When have Kobe-led teams ever demonstrated the night-to-night focus required to even challenge 70-wins? It seems like pretty much every season LA's being criticized for inconsistent effort. Since becoming the best player of his team in '03, Kobe has led LA to 1 60-win season in 11 seasons. One! And LA possessed 60-win talent for at least half of those seasons. Kobe neither possesses the leaderships skills nor the consistency in his own effort/level of play to lead a team to 70 wins. Championship? Sure, but he's not sniffing 70.

You're a ****ing moron.
He won 65 games with Gasol, Ariza & Odom.
Not exactly Pippen, Rodman & Kokuc is it dickhead?

Seriously this guy alongside LeBron23 and that dickhead Spurs fan are the 3 worse posters on this forum.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Nope, not even gonna make it to NBA Finals. That Bulls team was great largely because of Jordan, replacing him with another SG just aint gonna work. Same reason why you cant replace Shaq with Illgauskas and still expect the Lakers to 3-peat in 2000-2002. The difference between Jordan and any other SGs is not much less than the difference between Shaq and Illgauskas.

[Carbine]

Nope, not even gonna make it to NBA Finals. That Bulls team was great largely because of Jordan, replacing him with another SG just aint gonna work. Same reason why you cant replace Shaq with Illgauskas and still expect the Lakers to 3-peat in 2000-2002. The difference between Jordan and any other SGs is not much less than the difference between Shaq and Illgauskas.

I nominate this as one of the worst posts I've ever read here.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I nominate this as one of the worst posts I've ever read here.

Yup when Jordan was replaced by a D leaguer they only won 50 or so games

[SamuraiSWISH]

Damn Jordan put up 30/7/4/2/1 on 50/43/83 that year :bowdown: at age 32 :applause:

Followed up with 31/5/4/2 on 46/40/82 in the playoffs. :applause:
Nah bud he was 32 - 33 years old.

Loki and Indian Guy ethering this thread with knowledge bombs.

[RRR3]

Nah bud he was 32 - 33 years old.

Loki and Indian Guy ethering this thread with knowledge bombs.
Kobe at the same age: 25/5/5/1/0 on 45/32/83.
Playoffs: 23/3/3/2/0 on 45/29/82, swept by Mavericks :facepalm


"B-b-b-but Kobe is just as good as MJ!"

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kobe at the same age: 25/5/5/1/0 on 45/32/83.
Playoffs: 23/3/3/2/0 on 45/29/82, swept by Mavericks :facepalm


"B-b-b-but Kobe is just as good as MJ!"

What were Kobe stats as a 34 year old?

[DMAVS41]

The same 06 Kobe that couldn't dominate the Suns and quit in a game 7?

Nah...not winning the title...LOL

[TheMarkMadsen]

[QUOTE=andgar923]As far as Rodman is concerned

[RRR3]

What were Kobe stats as a 34 year old?
Not as good as Jordans.

[Heavincent]

They'd most likely win the title.

[Heavincent]

The same 06 Kobe that couldn't dominate the Suns and quit in a game 7?

Nah...not winning the title...LOL

Harper
Kobe
Pippen
Rodman
Longley

6th man: Kukoc

Honestly, that seems pretty similarly constructed to the 09 and 10 Lakers. Pippen plays the side kick role that Pau had, Longley would have a similar role to Bynum, and Kukoc is the skilled big coming off the bench, like Odom. Oh yeah, and the same coach.

But yeah, going from the best SG ever to the 2nd best SG ever would really crippled their titles chances...I think it's time to admit you're a Kobe detractor. Everyone knows it.

[RRR3]

Harper
Kobe
Pippen
Rodman
Longley

6th man: Kukoc

Honestly, that seems pretty similarly constructed to the 09 and 10 Lakers. Pippen plays the side kick role that Pau had, Longley would have a similar role to Bynum, and Kukoc is the skilled big coming off the bench, like Odom. Oh yeah, and the same coach.

But yeah, going from the best SG ever to the 2nd best SG ever would really crippled their titles chances...I think it's time to admit you're a Kobe detractor. Everyone knows it.
Jordan isn't just the best SG ever, he's the best PLAYER ever.

[Heavincent]

Jordan isn't just the best SG ever, he's the best PLAYER ever.

Never said otherwise.

[StarJordan]

If kobe couldn't win 72 with shaq and malone, how was he going to be able to win 72 with luc longley for center?

[StarJordan]

The 90's were a weak era

The 90s kicked kobe's ass. He and shaq couldn't win a title in the 90s.

[KG215]

The 90s kicked kobe's ass. He and shaq couldn't win a title in the 90s.
Yeah...if only 18 and 19 year old Kobe could've helped Shaq get through the West and take down the Jordan/Pippen Bulls. It really opens your eyes that he couldn't do it.

I accuse Kobe fanboys for being terrible at either ignoring or not using context, and this falls under the same category. Anyone wanting to try and use Kobe not winning a title with Shaq to point out how tough the 90's were, is completely and ignorantly ignoring context. There are better ways to correct the people that claim the 90's was a weak era.

[ProfessorMurder]

Says Rodman wouldn't respect or listen to Kobe after a video is posted where Dennis Rodman while under oath calls Kobe the "MJ of this era, a great leader, extremely smart and that KOBE HAS LEARNED TO BRING HIS Teammates in with him"

So Dennis Rodman calls Kobe the Mj of this era, great leader & great teammate yet you somehow think he wouldn't respect him. :roll:

andgars opinion on how Dennis Rodman views Kobe>> Dennis Rodmans opinion on how he views Kobe

Starts with about a minute left in the video.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-sTlxfIEx2I&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D-sTlxfIEx2I

Maybe you should stop spewing nonsense about how the opinions of a man you've never met when he's under oath contradicting everything you've said about how he wouldn't respect Kobe.

Sounds like Rodman respects the hell out of Kobe

That must be why he showed Kobe and the Lakers so much respect when he played with them.

That must be why he said he'd stop drinking and partying 8,000 times.

That must be why he thinks he's capable of being a global ambassador to hostile countries.

We can clearly take what he says at face value.

If he didn't even listen to Jordan, didn't have a relationship with him outside of basketball, would show up 45 minutes before games after partying and gambling all night, and you think Kobe is going to have any semblance of control? Rodman would eat him alive. Kobe just snipes at weak ass teammates like Gasol through the media, and the media LOVED Rodman.

You really think Pippen, who quit against the Knicks because the shot was drawn up for someone else would really be cool with deferring to Kobe?

Get a clue man. Kobe can't hack it with anyone with a strong personality. F*ck, even 'goofy' Dwight Howard basically told him to f*ck off and left the team.

[andgar923]

That must be why he showed Kobe and the Lakers so much respect when he played with them.

That must be why he said he'd stop drinking and partying 8,000 times.

That must be why he thinks he's capable of being a global ambassador to hostile countries.

We can clearly take what he says at face value.

If he didn't even listen to Jordan, didn't have a relationship with him outside of basketball, would show up 45 minutes before games after partying and gambling all night, and you think Kobe is going to have any semblance of control? Rodman would eat him alive. Kobe just snipes at weak ass teammates like Gasol through the media, and the media LOVED Rodman.

You really think Pippen, who quit against the Knicks because the shot was drawn up for someone else would really be cool with deferring to Kobe?

Get a clue man. Kobe can't hack it with anyone with a strong personality. F*ck, even 'goofy' Dwight Howard basically told him to f*ck off and left the team.

All they do is look at stats, but fail to realize that it took more than talent for the Bulls to win, and MJ was their leader.

Kobe fans fail to realize small shit like that.

They keep repeating the same bullshit "the bulls without MJ won 50 games" but fail to realize it was because they played team game. They had chemistry and ran the triangle to perfection. Kobe would kill all that as soon as he steps in their locker room. The triangle would turn to shit, team chemistry will die, Pip will ask for a trade, Kukoc would wander off, Kobe would trash every player in that team during interviews and they'll refuse to play with him.

Do Kobe fans ignore what happened just last season?????

They aint winning jack shit with any version of Kobe

[andgar923]

Yeah...if only 18 and 19 year old Kobe could've helped Shaq get through the West and take down the Jordan/Pippen Bulls. It really opens your eyes that he couldn't do it.

I accuse Kobe fanboys for being terrible at either ignoring or not using context, and this falls under the same category. Anyone wanting to try and use Kobe not winning a title with Shaq to point out how tough the 90's were, is completely and ignorantly ignoring context. There are better ways to correct the people that claim the 90's was a weak era.

Thought that his age would be a factor. It usually is to excuse Kobe, but is conveniently brought up when it's convenient for his fans to boast.

Fact is he simply wasn't good enough.

Could he play in the 90s? we've seen him struggle and complain to refs when he gets played physically. He throws tantrums and screams at the refs with every missed shot in desperation even tho replays will confirm nobody touched him.

His fg% and decision making is already shitty, imagine him with players pressuring him all the time, every night?

They can post highlights of a game here and there when he played good, but his average stats speak for themselves, and that's WITH Shaq on his team creating tons of space for him.

Ironically enough, whenever Kobe has a bad game his fans start to cry "he was getting hammered" or "the refs hate him, he gets no calls".

They don't even know how much they shoot themselves in the foot when they cry like that. They're basically admitting that he can't play against physical in your face defense.

[Sarcastic]

No chance. 1996 Bulls were a product of Jordan's leadership. Neither Kobe nor LeBron could ever come close to that.

[andgar923]

No chance. 1996 Bulls were a product of Jordan's leadership. Neither Kobe nor LeBron could ever come close to that.

You brought up Bron.

I can see him being a better leader than Kobe and the Bulls running the triangle very well, except for one big flaw in his game.

The triangle offense needs a strong post foundation. The post up player controls a big chunk of the offense, whether by passing or scoring. And Bron simply isn't a good post up player. He's not even a really good passer from the post since he's not comfortable playing there. He still takes time to read the defense, something MJ did instinctively. Kobe is much better than Bron in the post and even he'd have issues performing at Mj's level with any consistency. Even if MJ wasn't scoring, the defense would be scrambling as soon as he touched the ball, MJ simply picked their defense apart. If his pass didn't lead directly to an assist, it created a chain that eventually led to a good shot. Bron can't do that.

Another issue Bron has is moving without the ball.

Ball movement is essential in the triangle offense, both Kobe and MJ are lethal, sadly Bron isn't.

[plowking]

I don't know if its just me, or everyone, but reading andgar's post is what most teachers must feel like when they read a student's paper or exam and clearly know that the kid doesn't have a clue what they're talking about, and are bullshitting the whole thing.

[andgar923]

I don't know if its just me, or everyone, but reading andgar's post is what most teachers must feel like when they read a student's paper or exam and clearly know that the kid doesn't have a clue what they're talking about, and are bullshitting the whole thing.

You're just an idiot.

You must not get tired riding my d*ck tho, since you're always on it.

[KG215]

Thought that his age would be a factor. It usually is to excuse Kobe, but is conveniently brought up when it's convenient for his fans to boast.

Fact is he simply wasn't good enough.

Well, as roughly 100 Kobe stans can attest to, I'm far from a Kobe fan. If you don't think being 18-20 years old had more to do with Kobe not being able to win in Jordan's era than "not being good enough" then you're an even more delusional Jordan fan than I thought.


Could he play in the 90s? we've seen him struggle and complain to refs when he gets played physically. He throws tantrums and screams at the refs with every missed shot in desperation even tho replays will confirm nobody touched him.

His fg% and decision making is already shitty, imagine him with players pressuring him all the time, every night?

They can post highlights of a game here and there when he played good, but his average stats speak for themselves, and that's WITH Shaq on his team creating tons of space for him.

Ironically enough, whenever Kobe has a bad game his fans start to cry "he was getting hammered" or "the refs hate him, he gets no calls".

They don't even know how much they shoot themselves in the foot when they cry like that. They're basically admitting that he can't play against physical in your face defense.
Put your biases/hate aside. Kobe absolutely could play in the 90's. He wouldn't be as good or as successful as Jordan, even if he was given similar teams/circumstances, but he'd still be pretty damn good.

[KG215]

You're just an idiot.

You must not get tired riding my d*ck tho, since you're always on it.
Yet you're the one trying to rationalize and speculate on why Kobe wouldn't hack it in the 90's. Doing so by basing it on, well, nothing really.

I mean just because you don't like him or don't like the constant comparisons to your favorite player doesn't mean you have to resort to trying to convince people that Kobe might not be able to play in the 90's.

[andgar923]

Well, as roughly 100 Kobe stans can attest to, I'm far from a Kobe fan. If you don't think being 18-20 years old had more to do with Kobe not being able to win in Jordan's era than "not being good enough" then you're an even more delusional Jordan fan than I thought.


Put your biases/hate aside. Kobe absolutely could play in the 90's. He wouldn't be as good or as successful as Jordan, even if he was given similar teams/circumstances, but he'd still be pretty damn good.
I know you're not a Kobe stan, nor a Kobe fan.

I also didn't say he couldn't play, simply what you attested to as well

[andgar923]

Yet you're the one trying to rationalize and speculate on why Kobe wouldn't hack it in the 90's. Doing so by basing it on, well, nothing really.

I mean just because you don't like him or don't like the constant comparisons to your favorite player doesn't mean you have to resort to trying to convince people that Kobe might not be able to play in the 90's.

C'mon.. "nothing"?

We've seen him struggle vs physical defense.
We've seen him struggle vs defense set up similar to how they played in the 90s.

And.. he's played in the 90s (even tho the rules were already starting to become puss&fied).

So I doin't see how this is based on "nothing".

The game has been changed to make it easy on perimeter players, yet he still forces shit and cries at the tiniest amount of contact.

:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

[eliteballer]

Thought that his age would be a factor. It usually is to excuse Kobe, but is conveniently brought up when it's convenient for his fans to boast.

Fact is he simply wasn't good enough.

You're blaming a teenage rookie/sophomore for not being able to win the title??:lol

When everyone is calling you mentally challenged...it's usually a sign.

[eliteballer]

yes, Kobe, one of the best players on a planet of 6 billion people...would not be able to play in the 90's...:roll:

...because he didn't drop 33 in a half as a 20 year old, or drop 34 on the Bulls as a 19 year old, or average 15 a game in 20 min off the bench as a 18-19 year old...all in the 90's.

[Nevaeh]

They challanege 75+ wins

06 Kobe was tripled and doubled relentlessly and still completely dominated games with his scoring. His shot-making in that season was off any type of chart that the NBA had ever seen up to that point. He needed to score 37 a night during LA wins, that should probably do it for all those who say he "selfishly chucked up shots". Well what the fvck are you supposed to do if you see Smush Parker and Walton bricking consecutive open threes, Kwame blowing a dunk and Lamar having one of his 11/6/3 @ 36 FG% nights again?

Don't get me wrong Odom was good but he'd have three straight games with the aforementioned stat line and then three straight 20/11/5 nights. Dude just didn't have any semblance of consistency in his game.

Phil's gameplan was for Kobe to score as much as possible. The 96 Bulls had 3 better defensive players than anyone outside of Kobe in their starting lineup already in Pip, Dennis and Harper. The Lakers offense in 06 ranked 7th in the leauge, you think it was because of their bottom of the L 3PT shooting or his supporting cast? The Bulls on defense stay the same, since Kobe in his prime always played elite D when his offensive burden wasn't "average 37/5/6 or we lose". His average in losses is pretty telling, 33 @ 41 FG% which means LA only went as far as his scoring. That version of Kobe is more athletic than 96 MJ and a better scorer as he faced much more defensive pressure and still put up better numbers.

Having all the options the Bulls had, plus Pippen as a primary playmaker to relieve the pressure off of Kobe, don't you think he'd do well in that type of environment, at the peak of his abilities? Plus he'd be free to clear out for a
post up (Sorry MJ stans but Kobe has been Top 3 in PPS and Tops in shooting percentge since Synergy started counting them) under 96 rules. Any team back
in 06 attempting to play Kobe one on one resulted in a scoring binge. And them
there's the shortened 3pt line hahaha


They easily win it all. And they challenge 75 plus wins. And almost every player and coach in the league has deep respect for him and players that have hated him in the past like Artest, Barnes, Ariza and Raja Bell all went out of their way to try to play for his team.

Dude, your entire post is predicated on how Kobe is great offensively, but you're totally forgetting that the 96 Bulls were ranked the Number 1 DEFENSIVE team that year also. And we all know that Kobe wasn't giving a single damn about defense this particular year.

This is what has, and always will, separate them as players. And even if you wanna go the "Oh my God, the points" route, Kobe was still only shooting 45% that year, like he usually does, which would kill team chemistry quicker than any Dennis Rodman antic ever could.

The 96 Bulls were "focused" with MJ as the leader. With 06 Kobe as leader, this team would be too erratic to even think about approaching 70 wins.

[tpols]

It's sad guys like andgar don't get called out for their bullshit more.. His thoughts and opinions are as far out in left field as any trolls(Tony, silk, kenneth) but because he doesn't post sensationally or with the purpose of trying to rile people up, he doesn't catch as much heat.

But most of his posts are retarded.

[tpols]

Dude, your entire post is predicated on how Kobe is great offensively, but you're totally forgetting that the 96 Bulls were ranked the Number 1 DEFENSIVE team that year also. And we all know that Kobe wasn't giving a single damn about defense this particular year.

This is what has, and always will, separate them as players. And even if you wanna go the "Oh my God, the points" route, Kobe was still only shooting 45% that year, like he usually does, which would kill team chemistry quicker than any Dennis Rodman antic ever could.

The 96 Bulls were "focused" with MJ as the leader. With 06 Kobe as leader, this team would be too erratic to even think about approaching 70 wins.
Like.. 10 times its been explained that 06 Kobe was given a green light to go off on offense and conserve on defense because of his teams lack of firepower.

You know.. Like drose on the Bulls or AI on the sixers.. If you have one lone superstar and role players best strategy is to have him carry th the offense and the rest carry the d.

Except on the 96 bulls he'd have plenty of offensive help. So like during the threepeat or 08/09 he would have been able to give effort on both ends.


And MJ shot 46 percent in the playoffs. 1 percent difference is going to make the whole team cave in on itself? So absurd..

[Indian guy]

nor LeBron could ever come close to that.

LeBron has 3 65+ win seasons over the last 5 years, featuring superior records against the loaded West than East all 3 years(before the 'Least' accusations start). If there's anyone besides MJ who can lead a team to 70 wins, it's LeBron.

[andgar923]

So I guess when all else fails label me a troll I suppose.

We know this much, and this cannot be spun or refuted (although we all know Kobe fans will still do so):

A. Kobe's teammates are usually at odds with him and he can't control his team.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/229541/Buss-Dwight-Didnt-Want-To-Play-With-Kobe-For-2-3-More-Years

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8753097/andrew-bynum-philadelphia-76ers-says-kobe-bryant-stunted-development-los-angeles-lakers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GEbgtvOfr8



His coaches have issues with him

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_moV7hS-po8

http://forums.lakersground.net/togo/thread.php?topic_id=116216

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/lakers/2004-10-12-jackson-book_x.htm

Kobe can't play vs physical defense, he gets frustrated easily:

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/fouls/sort/technicalFouls
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/fouls/sort/technicalFouls/year/2012
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/fouls/sort/technicalFouls/year/2011
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/fouls/sort/technicalFouls/year/2010

And on and on, almost all of those techs is because he gets frustrated when he gets played physically. Most of the time it's either a non foul or a slight touch.

The question was raised whether or not he could play in the 90s, well there is some evidence that he'd have a harder time than you Kobe fans think.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZbyNqHh3iM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TevcYKbxa-I

His shot selection is still immature and very inconsistent as we can see.

Oh, and that's just me getting started.

Go ahead try to twist and refute shit I already know what your lame predictable excuses are gonna be.

But I guess I'm a "troll" because you f@gs disagree with me. All of my arguments are based on evidence (and there's more, just getting warmed up).

For the record, I didn't bring up Kobe in the 90s nor his failures in the 90s. I simply added more to the discussion because Kobe fans always use it as an excuse, yet they TRASH Bron with every chance they get, or dismiss his accomplishments.

Some posters already posted statistical evidence that show he wasn't as good as MJ. But of course that doesn't matter to ya'll.

So when evidence is in front of your face yet ya'll argue and try to spin it, who really is the "TROLL" here?

Kobe = Great all time player

But like Chuck said "he aint Michael Jordan"

[TheMarkMadsen]

That must be why he showed Kobe and the Lakers so much respect when he played with them.

That must be why he said he'd stop drinking and partying 8,000 times.

That must be why he thinks he's capable of being a global ambassador to hostile countries.

We can clearly take what he says at face value.

If he didn't even listen to Jordan, didn't have a relationship with him outside of basketball, would show up 45 minutes before games after partying and gambling all night, and you think Kobe is going to have any semblance of control? Rodman would eat him alive. Kobe just snipes at weak ass teammates like Gasol through the media, and the media LOVED Rodman.

You really think Pippen, who quit against the Knicks because the shot was drawn up for someone else would really be cool with deferring to Kobe?

Get a clue man. Kobe can't hack it with anyone with a strong personality. F*ck, even 'goofy' Dwight Howard basically told him to f*ck off and left the team.

You know you're a troll when you claim Dennis Rodman doesn't respect Kobe, and then you see a video of Rodman all over Kobes nuts talking about how much he likes him, and you still claim Dennis Rodman wouldn't respect him.

Ill take d Rods opinion on how he feels over your opinion on how he feels every day of the week

[andgar923]

You know you're a troll when you claim Dennis Rodman doesn't respect Kobe, and then you see a video of Rodman all over Kobes nuts talking about how much he likes him, and you still claim Dennis Rodman wouldn't respect him.

Ill take d Rods opinion on how he feels over your opinion on how he feels every day of the week

That's different than actually PLAYING with him.

We saw Dwight do the same about Kobe.

Playing with somebody will always be different.

[TheMarkMadsen]

That's different than actually PLAYING with him.

We saw Dwight do the same about Kobe.

Playing with somebody will always be different.


Rodman liked playing with Jordan, calls Kobe the Jordan of the era..says Kobes a great teammate and has learned how to bring is teammates in

You've been claiming Rodman wouldn't respect Kobe but its obvious that the respect is there.

I show you evidence straight from the horses mouth, all you're doing is making baseless assumptions. Rodman isn't Dwight, he's a career winner not a career whiner.

[andgar923]

Rodman liked playing with Jordan, calls Kobe the Jordan of the era..says Kobes a great teammate and has learned how to bring is teammates in

You've been claiming Rodman wouldn't respect Kobe but its obvious that the respect is there.

I show you evidence straight from the horses mouth, all you're doing is making baseless assumptions. Rodman isn't Dwight, he's a career winner not a career whiner.
Again, all that goes out the window when they play together.

Kobe is simply a player that's hard to play with and coach

[TheMarkMadsen]

[QUOTE=andgar923]Again, all that goes out the window when they play together.

Kobe is simply a player that's hard to play with and coach

[andgar923]

It's a "fact"that Kobes hard to play with and coach?

Do you have anything to back that up that outweighs the 5 championships that seem to suggest otherwise..or are you just a pathetic troll?

And do you still wanna sit here and say Rodman doesn't respect Kobe? :lol

When actual evidence is presented just fall back on claiming a 5x champion is hard to play with/coach.

You idiot, I just posted links that prove he's hard to play with and coach.:facepalm

[TheMarkMadsen]

You idiot, I just posted links that prove he's hard to play with and coach.:facepalm


So your examples for Kobe being hard to play with is Bynum shooting a 3, Byum wanting to be the 1st option, and the dwightmare leaving?

Great examples. :applause:

That really shows the world that a 5x champion is hard to play with.

You too dumb to realize that I'd be better off conceding and letting you think Kobes hard to play with that way I could say that even as a difficult player to get along with he was still able to stack championships doing it his way, and if he would have been "easier to play with" he could have doubled his ring count.

Your post look like ground beef cause they're just getting slaughtered.

[andgar923]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSi2zWaF9vE

[andgar923]

So your examples for Kobe being hard to play with is Bynum shooting a 3, Byum wanting to be the 1st option, and the dwightmare leaving?

Great examples. :applause:

Howard would rather take a paycut and go play with another star than play with Kobe. Dwight was the one looking to team up with other stars, so it isn't so much about his ego (although he is a b*tch and I side with Kobe) it's just the fact that he didn't wanna play with him. Couldn't even wait the time for him to retire, that's how badly he didn't wanna play.

[andgar923]

Furthermore, Phil DEMANDED to trade him not just once but twice. And lord knows how many times he mentioned or gave hints at his desire not to coach him anymore. We've seen in his book entries how his frustration grew and grew and grew.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Furthermore, Phil DEMANDED to trade him not just once but twice. And lord knows how many times he mentioned or gave hints at his desire not to coach him anymore. We've seen in his book entries how his frustration grew and grew and grew.

Is this the same Phil Jackson who out if retirement to coach Kobe not once but twice..?

:applause:

Please continue

[TheMarkMadsen]

Furthermore, Phil DEMANDED to trade him not just once but twice. And lord knows how many times he mentioned or gave hints at his desire not to coach him anymore. We've seen in his book entries how his frustration grew and grew and grew.

Is this the same Phil Jackson who out if retirement to coach Kobe not once but twice..?

:applause:

Please continue

[TheMarkMadsen]

Furthermore, Phil DEMANDED to trade him not just once but twice. And lord knows how many times he mentioned or gave hints at his desire not to coach him anymore. We've seen in his book entries how his frustration grew and grew and grew.

Is this the same Phil Jackson who out if retirement to coach Kobe not once but twice..?

:applause:

Please continue

[TheMarkMadsen]

Furthermore, Phil DEMANDED to trade him not just once but twice. And lord knows how many times he mentioned or gave hints at his desire not to coach him anymore. We've seen in his book entries how his frustration grew and grew and grew.

Is this the same Phil Jackson who out if retirement to coach Kobe not once but twice..?

:applause:

Please continue

[andgar923]

Is this the same Phil Jackson who out if retirement to coach Kobe not once but twice..?

:applause:

Please continue

I'm sure money, Jeanie Buss and stake in the Lakers' organization didn't have anything to do with it.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I'm sure money, Jeanie Buss and stake in the Lakers' organization didn't have anything to do with it.


But if Kobe was so hard to coach and play with why would Phil come back twice to coach him? It totally contradicts the point you're so desperately attempting to make.

Why would PJ come back in 05 if Kobe was such a problem when the rest of the team was garbage?

[andgar923]

But if Kobe was so hard to coach and play with why would Phil come back twice to coach him? It totally contradicts the point you're so desperately attempting to make.

Why would PJ come back in 05 if Kobe was such a problem when the rest of the team was garbage?

You ****, Phil said it in his AUTOBIOGRAPHY.

[Akhenaten]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[TheMarkMadsen]

You ****, Phil said it in his AUTOBIOGRAPHY.

Yes get mad an throw insults

What was that again a few pages back about D Rod not respectin Kobe?

You're best evidence for Kobe being hard to play with is Bynum shooting a 3, and Bynum claiming he wanted to be the 1st option, and that it was being hindered due to playing with a definitive #1 option like Kobe..

From the article you posted: "I thought it really helped me a lot obviously at first, because he draws so much attention it's hard for guys to double team and key on you, so it helped me tremendously"

And how does Kobe respond to Bynums comments?

"For sure, because when you're playing with me you obviously have to sacrifice something," Bryant said. "Same thing with me and Shaq (Shaquille O'Neal). You kind of off-set each other to a certain extent"

What a horrible teammate!!

I guess Shaq was a hard player to play with too since Kobe wanted to be the first option ala Bynum!

[RRR3]

Is this the same Phil Jackson who out if retirement to coach Kobe not once but twice..?

:applause:

Please continue
More like does it four times.









YASEEWHATIDIDTHAR

[plowking]

Again, all that goes out the window when they play together.

Kobe is simply a player that's hard to play with and coach… those are FACTS jack.

This idiot.

Seriously. Stop pretending you know shit. Stop pretending you can analyze basketball on and off the court. You really don't know shit.
You make baseless, vague, safe comments in every one of your posts. All slurping Jordan, and saying how the rest isn't up to par. You really know jack shit when it comes to basketball.

This comment proves it. Go read up on Rodman, better yet his autobiography, and you'll actually learn something. You're way off base, and you look dumber every time you post.

[EnoughSaid]

Wouldn't Pippen be the alpha dog of the team?

[SilkkTheShocker]

No way would Pippen be willing to be Kobe's #2 the same way he was with MJ. Kobe just doesn't command that type of respect out of his teammates like Jordan or LeBron do.

[branslowski]

This idiot.

Seriously. Stop pretending you know shit. Stop pretending you can analyze basketball on and off the court. You really don't know shit.
You make baseless, vague, safe comments in every one of your posts. All slurping Jordan, and saying how the rest isn't up to par. You really know jack shit when it comes to basketball.

This comment proves it. Go read up on Rodman, better yet his autobiography, and you'll actually learn something. You're way off base, and you look dumber every time you post.

Damn..:oldlol:

[chazzy]

That's different than actually PLAYING with him.

We saw Dwight do the same about Kobe.

Playing with somebody will always be different.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_hGJ3GhPGwJY/SwL2Zqxt_9I/AAAAAAAABoI/y3GtYlqIVqI/s400/9.jpg

[guy]

Sure I'd say they win the championship. This is probably the best version of Kobe on Jordan's best team. If there was only one "Kobe winning championship on Jordan's Bulls" scenario this would probably be it.

With that said, no way they win 70+. They maybe capable of it, but it wouldn't happen. Kobe's good teams for whatever reason are prone to not showing consistent effort, and I imagine that has something to do with his leadership style. Like someone else said, as talented of the teams he's played on since he became a full-fledged superstar in 01, he's only had 1 season where his team won over 60 games and every single year there always seems to be an issue where there effort is questioned. They were very much a turn it off/turn it on type of a team.

Jordan's good teams in the 90s on the other hand really only had 1 year where there effort was questionable and that was 1993. I think it has a lot with what Phil alluded to in his book when he said Jordan knew better how to gauge the emotional climate of a team and adjust better to personalities then Kobe did. Completely disagree with those that say players like Pippen and Rodman wouldn't respect Kobe, but given what Phil said, I doubt they mesh as well. Jordan rarely, if ever, called out his teammates publicly in the media, something which Kobe has done constantly. I don't think Rodman takes that type of stuff that well given how he was sensitive towards that type of public criticism, which is what he endured in San Antonio. They gave him a long leash as long as he produced and did his job when it mattered most, which I doubt Kobe would have the patience for. And I could definitely see Pippen sensitive towards any public criticism from Kobe given the fact that he was already sensitive toward the fact that he didn't get as much credit as he thought he deserved because he wasn't the leader of that team. Does it make that big of a difference? Maybe not, but enough that they wouldn't be as good and wouldn't win 70 games.

[Legends66NBA7]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_hGJ3GhPGwJY/SwL2Zqxt_9I/AAAAAAAABoI/y3GtYlqIVqI/s400/9.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=SlGP09AqPiE#t=1508

[Dragonyeuw]

Sure I'd say they win the championship. This is probably the best version of Kobe on Jordan's best team. If there was only one "Kobe winning championship on Jordan's Bulls" scenario this would probably be it.



IMHO I don't think either is true. If I was to take 'one' Kobe who you could say 'put him on the 90's Bulls, does he win the title?' it would be his MVP year. In terms of all-around play, commitment to defense, balance between scoring and facilitating, that's the best Kobe to me. And he was just as capable in 08 of putting up 06 numbers, he simply didn't need to with better talent around him.

I'm not even sure if the 96 Bulls, record aside, is the best of Jordan's Bulls. I would take the 92 Bulls with MJ at the peak of his powers, Pippen entering his prime. I'd take Rodman over Grant overall, but that 3-headed doberman defense of Jordan/Pippen/Grant was ruthless.

[guy]

IMHO I don't think either is true. If I was to take 'one' Kobe who you could say 'put him on the 90's Bulls, does he win the title?' it would be his MVP year. In terms of all-around play, commitment to defense, balance between scoring and facilitating, that's the best Kobe to me. And he was just as capable in 08 of putting up 06 numbers, he simply didn't need to with better talent around him.

I'm not even sure if the 96 Bulls, record aside, is the best of Jordan's Bulls. I would take the 92 Bulls with MJ at the peak of his powers, Pippen entering his prime. I'd take Rodman over Grant overall, but that 3-headed doberman defense of Jordan/Pippen/Grant was ruthless.

I wouldn't argue with 06 vs. 08 Kobe. They are obviously very close.

I think Jordan's best supporting cast was in 96, but arguably not the best Bulls team overall since Jordan was better during the first three-peat.