My top 20

[jongib369]

Keep in mind this is always changing...And I prefer tiers.

1. Wilt Chamberlain

2. Kareem

3. Jordan

4. Russell

5. Oscar

6. Bird

7. Magic

8. Shaq

9. Hakeem

10. West

11. Duncan

12. Moses

13. LeBron

14.Kobe

15. Malone

16. Baylor

17. Dr J

18. Barkley

19. Stockton

20. Spanoulis No not really Euroleague calm your nuts...Thurmond, Garnett or Robinson and a few others come to mind worhty

http://24.media.tumblr.com/76eeefb8a253d6a822d28dc624cadcb6/tumblr_mnvgi9MGUH1stdmcbo6_r1_250.gif


This list is so ****ing hard because most of these players have a case for top 10....Then on top of that, I value the center position so much it's difficult to take guards over them... Big whoops if I forgot to mention someone X)

[Jameerthefear]

ok

[KobesFinger]

What's your criteria?

[Shade8780]

ok

[thabisyo]

interesting list.....

[jongib369]

What's your criteria?
This is what I look at

Overall impact individually, ability to mesh with a team, Willingness to work with a coach. Amount of All star games, Defensive teams, MVP's. Basketball IQ, how much they distort an offense or defense etc etc. Just basic stuff. I pretty much dismiss the amount of rings or final losses though.

That has more to do with the level of play of the entire team, a competent coach, avoiding key injuries, not being out matched (Example the depth of the 60s celtics) etc... I don't need to preach what you know

Plus I do have some position bias(C, PF, PG > SG, SF) which is why I'd rank guys like Kareem and Wilt above Jordan. But to be clear, I don't think people who rate Jordan higher are wrong. I just think the center position is more important

I need to go but I'll explain more later

[thabisyo]

This is what I look at

Overall impact individually, ability to mesh with a team, Willingness to work with a coach. Amount of All star games, Defensive teams, MVP's. Basketball IQ, how much they distort an offense or defense etc etc. Just basic stuff. I pretty much dismiss the amount of rings or final losses though.

That has more to do with the level of play of the entire team, a competent coach, avoiding key injuries, not being out matched (Example the depth of the 60s celtics) etc... I don't need to preach what you know

Plus I do have some position bias(C, PF, PG > SG, SF) which is why I'd rank guys like Kareem and Wilt above Jordan. But to be clear, I don't think people who rate Jordan higher are wrong. I just think the center position is more important

I need to go but I'll explain more later

I call bullshit. The guys like Jordan and Lebron won without dominant big man, cause of that they have to go above centers and power forwards.

[Flush]

Spanuolis over Kidd, Nash, etc.


Interesding.

[b1imtf]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[dr.hee]

Jordan over Spanoulis?

:coleman:

[jongib369]

I call bullshit. The guys like Jordan and Lebron won without dominant big man, cause of that they have to go above centers and power forwards.
There are exceptions but I doubt those bulls or heat beat a team = to them with a GOAT big like Kareem or Wilt. Especially the heat

[jongib369]

Jordan over Spanoulis?

:coleman:
Yeah I may have to switch it up a bit to make this list legit...Kill bill would strike fear into MJ's heart.

[Shade8780]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/76eeefb8a253d6a822d28dc624cadcb6/tumblr_mnvgi9MGUH1stdmcbo6_r1_250.gif
****ing hell :roll: :roll:

[jongib369]

Oscar over bird was a tough one...

[jimmy77x]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l595ohurPB1qzracxo1_400.gif

[jongib369]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l595ohurPB1qzracxo1_400.gif

:roll:

[All Net]

MJ 3rd? :eek:

[jongib369]

MJ 3rd? :eek:
Yeah that's a tough one...MJ is my child hood favorite growing up in Chicago. Usually have him at 1 or 2.



And this is why I rank in tiers lmao

[branslowski]

Dumbest list I've seen in a while, West or Kobe and LeBron? Kobe not in top 10 when the very criteria you picked factual places him there?

Kobe Top 5 Alltime in:

Career Points
Playoff Points
Playoff Stls
All Star selections
All NBA first Teams
All Defensive First Teams
Total titles+Finals MVPs

He's also The greatest scoring guard ever and Top player (Although Duncan has a case) of the 2000 era.

You have Wilt, Russell era, Kareem, Magic, Bird Era, Jordan era, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq era


But if you wasn't focusing on Facts and reality, but just who you like more and opinion, then I'll just let you be happy with your dumb list.

[aj1987]

This literally has to be the worst list ever. Kobe not in the top 10 and West over Duncan?

[KobesFinger]

Dumbest list I've seen in a while, West or Kobe and LeBron? Kobe not in top 10 when the very criteria you picked factual places him there?

Kobe Top 5 Alltime in:

Career Points
Playoff Points
Playoff Stls
All Star selections
All NBA first Teams
All Defensive First Teams
Total titles+Finals MVPs

He's also The greatest scoring guard ever and Top player (Although Duncan has a case) of the 2000 era.

You have Wilt, Russell era, Kareem, Magic, Bird Era, Jordan era, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq era


But if you wasn't focusing on Facts and reality, but just who you like more and opinion, then I'll just let you be happy with your dumb list.

:no:

[jongib369]

Dumbest list I've seen in a while, West or Kobe and LeBron? Kobe not in top 10 when the very criteria you picked factual places him there?

Kobe Top 5 Alltime in:

Career Points
Playoff Points
Playoff Stls
All Star selections
All NBA first Teams
All Defensive First Teams
Total titles+Finals MVPs

He's also The greatest scoring guard ever and Top player (Although Duncan has a case) of the 2000 era.

You have Wilt, Russell era, Kareem, Magic, Bird Era, Jordan era, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq era


But if you wasn't focusing on Facts and reality, but just who you like more and opinion, then I'll just let you be happy with your dumb list.
Where do you personally rank Kobe? Did you miss that I said there was more to my ranking then what I stated, beyond just opinion?

Kobe has an argument for top 10. People ranking him above West is definetly a respectful position...But I'd be hard pressed to take anyone seriously ranking him top 5 or higher. You may consider my list dumb, but I'm sure there are plenty posters that would more or less agree with me, or at least understand my reasoning and switch a few things around...Like I said, it changes and I'm open to be proven wrong. But when you say stuff like

He's also The greatest scoring guard ever

especially in the rude way you put, it's hard to take you seriously and not laugh. Please explain to me how he's a better scoring guard over the likes of Jordan & West? Or how he affects the game over all more so than any in my top 10 (Stats he's accumulated over lots of TIME don't count...Like total points etc.)

[jongib369]

This literally has to be the worst list ever. Kobe not in the top 10 and West over Duncan?
Tell me why Kobe deserves to be ranked higher than anyone in my top 10 besides West

Not saying that in a condescending way, just interested in your opinion

[jongib369]

:no:
"He's also The greatest scoring guard ever"

http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/mj-laughing.gif

[KobesFinger]

^ exactly.

[jongib369]

http://oi42.tinypic.com/2ak9w6w.jpg

[Bandito]

Spanoullis at 20 :roll:

[aj1987]

Tell me why Kobe deserves to be ranked higher than anyone in my top 10 besides West

Not saying that in a condescending way, just interested in your opinion
5 Rings
2 FMVP's
1 MVP
15 All-Star selections
15 All-NBA Teams
12 All-Defensive Teams

Over 30,000 career points. Dude still properly balled in his 17th season. The guys is an amazing scorer (one of the greatest). A really good defender (even though he gets overrated at times).

[SwayDizzle]

Kobe is the undisputed 6th best all time right now, with the chance to go as high as 2nd with an additional ring +FMVP

[aj1987]

Kobe is the undisputed 6th best all time right now, with the chance to go as high as 2nd with an additional ring +FMVP
Duncan, Jordan, KAJ, Wilt, Magic, Shaq, Bird, and Russell are all better and higher than him.

[derb2k2]

that GIF lmaooooo

[branslowski]

Where do you personally rank Kobe? Did you miss that I said there was more to my ranking then what I stated, beyond just opinion?

Kobe has an argument for top 10. People ranking him above West is definetly a respectful position...But I'd be hard pressed to take anyone seriously ranking him top 5 or higher. You may consider my list dumb, but I'm sure there are plenty posters that would more or less agree with me, or at least understand my reasoning and switch a few things around...Like I said, it changes and I'm open to be proven wrong. But when you say stuff like

He's also The greatest scoring guard ever

especially in the rude way you put, it's hard to take you seriously and not laugh. Please explain to me how he's a better scoring guard over the likes of Jordan & West? Or how he affects the game over all more so than any in my top 10 (Stats he's accumulated over lots of TIME don't count...Like total points etc.)

I personally rank Kobe at 7.

Majority of the media, casual fans, and other outlets around the world generally rank Kobe between the 7-9 range.

On ISH:

Extreme Kobe stans have Kobe Top 3 or GOAT-stupid not factually right.

Extreme Kobe haters have Kobe outside of the Top 15- stupid, not factually right.

Everyone else on ISH (besides the 2 extremes) have Kobe between 7-10.


There's also been about 5 threads posted on ISH inwhich different media sites, sports sites exc in which none of them has Kobe no lower than 9.

I stated that factual wise Kobe's accomplishments stacks up to in the Top 5, but I didn't have him there.

So again, not listing Kobe in the top 10 is considered dumb and also a minority ranking in which no one with a brain would even take you serious anymore.


On the topic of best scoring guard? Yea, Jordan is great, but I think Kobe's the greatest pure scorer ever...I've seen him complete scoring feats I've never seen or heard any other guard ever doing. Still to this day I don't think a guard can drop 81pts in a game...Nor drop 4 straight 50pt games, nor out score a whole team byhimself thru 3 quarters (The same team Wade played in the Finals that yr). I never thought anyone was gonna break MJs scoring record at the worlds most famous arena, but Kobe did it in the most offensively pleasing way I've ever seen.....So, if you pick Jordan, cool, won't argue with you, to each its own, but to act as if It's absurd to think Kobe's a better scorer is obviously idiotic.


Anyway, enjoy ur list...I'm just telling you its dumb.

Also Oscar, West, played in a weaker defensive high offensive paced era, ofcource they gonna have insane numbers....Yet, All greats win multiple times...West 1 title, Oscar 1 title...Meanwhile Kobe 5 titles 2 Finals MVPs, meanwhile LeBron 2 titles 2 Finals MVPs and you place them ahead of them? You even place Oscar over Tim Duncan smfh! Yea, like I said. Dumb list.

And I like how career points in playoffs all of a sudden doesn't matter, gtfo wit that bulllllshit.

[RRR3]

You don't want to bring up playoffs if you're saying Kobe is the greatest scoring guard ever :lol

Not like he has a case over MJ anyways.

Don't make me bring up the stats :D

[aj1987]

On the topic of best scoring guard? Yea, Jordan is great, but I think Kobe's the greatest pure scorer ever...I've seen him complete scoring feats I've never seen or heard any other guard ever doing. Still to this day I don't think a guard can drop 81pts in a game...Nor drop 4 straight 50pt games, nor out score a whole team byhimself thru 3 quarters (The same team Wade played in the Finals that yr). I never thought anyone was gonna break MJs scoring record at the worlds most famous arena, but Kobe did it in the most offensively pleasing way I've ever seen.....So, if you pick Jordan, cool, won't argue with you, to each its own, but to act as if It's absurd to think Kobe's a better scorer is obviously idiotic.


All that scoring and still 5 PPG less than Jordan on 5% worse efficiency. You're talking about Kobe scoring 50 4 times in a row in the RS? Jordan dropped 41 PPG in the FINALS.

Jordan and Kobe both have 5 60 point games.
50+? Jordan has 39 and Kobe has 25.
40+? 211 vs 133

Jordan played 162 fewer games than Kobe has and scored 675 more points.
Jordan also dropped a 50 point game when he was almost 39!

So, when people say that Jordan is a better scorer than Kobe and that it's not even close, it's not.

[RRR3]

All that scoring and still 5 PPG less than Jordan on 5% worse efficiency. You're talking about Kobe scoring 50 4 times in a row in the RS? Jordan dropped 41 PPG in the FINALS.

Jordan and Kobe both have 5 60 point games.
50+? Jordan has 39 and Kobe has 25.
40+? 211 vs 133

Jordan played 162 fewer games than Kobe has and scored 675 more points.
Jordan also dropped a 50 point game when he was almost 39!

So, when people say that Jordan is a better scorer than Kobe and that it's not even close, it's not.
:applause:

[Odinn]

Sorry. But horrible list. Way too obsessed with nostalgia. And even with that Oscar at 5th - West at 10th - Baylor at 16th. That's a joke too.

[kshutts1]

Am I the only one that is wants to know why he prefers using tiers, yet volunteered his listing? Why would he not volunteer tiers if that's what he prefers?

[Kurosawa0]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Magic Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Tim Duncan
7. LeBron James
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Wilt Chamberlain
10. Shaquille O'Neal
11. Hakeem Olajuwon
12. Moses Malone
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Jerry West
15. Julius Erving
16. Elgin Baylor
17. Isiah Thomas
18. Kevin Garnett
19. Dirk Nowitzki
20. Dwyane Wade

[funnystuff]

5 Rings
2 FMVP's
1 MVP
15 All-Star selections
15 All-NBA Teams
12 All-Defensive Teams

Over 30,000 career points. Dude still properly balled in his 17th season. The guys is an amazing scorer (one of the greatest). A really good defender (even though he gets overrated at times).
Some people think that those 2 stats are impressive, i look at it and all i think is "sidekick".

[Bandito]

Some people think that those 2 stats are impressive, i look at it and all i think is "sidekick".
You were jumping ship when the Heat almost lost because lebron was getting dominated by the Boris Diaw.

[funnystuff]

You were jumping ship when the Heat almost lost because lebron was getting dominated by the Boris Diaw.
Never happened, but if you can provide that non existent link where you found me saying that, be my guest. :cheers:

[pauk]

Keep in mind this is always changing...And I prefer tiers.

1. Wilt Chamberlain

2. Kareem

3. Jordan

4. Russell

http://replygif.net/i/1249.gif



5. Oscar

6. Bird

7. Magic

8. Shaq

http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/okHUg_79b6o283fiJLhSzA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTYzMA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en/blogs/sptusncaabexperts/85829184.jpg



9. Hakeem

10. West

11. Duncan

12. Moses

13. LeBron

14.Kobe

http://www.lolriot.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Kobe-Picking-On-Lebron-GIF.gif

[jongib369]

http://replygif.net/i/1249.gif



http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/okHUg_79b6o283fiJLhSzA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTYzMA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en/blogs/sptusncaabexperts/85829184.jpg



http://www.lolriot.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Kobe-Picking-On-Lebron-GIF.gif
haha! Love this

It's really hard to rank these guys

[jongib369]

Am I the only one that is wants to know why he prefers using tiers, yet volunteered his listing? Why would he not volunteer tiers if that's what he prefers?
Just for shits and gigs to be honest

[Bandito]

haha! Love this

It's really hard to rank these guys
But Spanoullis though?:facepalm He's good but he shouldn't be on anybody top players list.

[KG215]

Dumbest list I've seen in a while, West or Kobe and LeBron? Kobe not in top 10 when the very criteria you picked factual places him there?

Kobe Top 5 Alltime in:

Career Points
Playoff Points
Playoff Stls
All Star selections
All NBA first Teams
All Defensive First Teams
Total titles+Finals MVPs

He's also The greatest scoring guard ever and Top player (Although Duncan has a case) of the 2000 era.

You have Wilt, Russell era, Kareem, Magic, Bird Era, Jordan era, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq era


But if you wasn't focusing on Facts and reality, but just who you like more and opinion, then I'll just let you be happy with your dumb list.
No, he's not. Most total points does not automatically = best scoring _______ ever.

[Marchesk]

Sorry. But horrible list. Way too obsessed with nostalgia. And even with that Oscar at 5th - West at 10th - Baylor at 16th. That's a joke too.

West is a little bit underrated. He has a case for top 10 still.

[funnystuff]

If every superstar has taken as many shots as Kobe, Kobe would be like #87 on the all time points list.

[Collie]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Magic Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Tim Duncan
7. LeBron James
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Wilt Chamberlain
10. Shaquille O'Neal
11. Hakeem Olajuwon
12. Moses Malone
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Jerry West
15. Julius Erving
16. Elgin Baylor
17. Isiah Thomas
18. Kevin Garnett
19. Dirk Nowitzki
20. Dwyane Wade

This is better, but I would put Wilt over LBJ and Kobe, drop Isiah and Wade, replace them with Pettit (2X MVP, 1 ring - only player along with Wilt to beat Russell fair and square) and Hondo (multiple rings including 2 as the man).

[Owl]

There's also been about 5 threads posted on ISH inwhich different media sites, sports sites exc in which none of them has Kobe no lower than 9.

I stated that factual wise Kobe's accomplishments stacks up to in the Top 5, but I didn't have him there.

So again, not listing Kobe in the top 10 is considered dumb and also a minority ranking in which no one with a brain would even take you serious anymore
Slam 500 (2011) had Kobe 10. He's been productive since then but nothing amazing. A recently published book (albeit not by a major publishing house and with significant typos) put Bryant 14.

Whilst his career accomplishments (all-nba, all D, MVP Shares etc) could put him top 5 his career metrics and peak metrics could place him outside the top 20 (per minute metrics looking at his peak are particularly unfavourable).

[TheCorporation]

So you think the Center position is more important than SG/SF?

Well, that may be, depending on the player.

Example 1:

C: Shaquille O'Neal
SG: James Harden

Yes, the Center position is more important. Why? He is a better player, and has won 4 rings, 3 Finals MVPs, etc.

Example 2:

C: Wilt
SG: Jordan

Yes, the SG position is more important. Why? He is a better player, and has won 6 rings, 6 Finals MVPs, etc.

So, saying you rate players based on their position is stupid.

Is Divac better than Jordan? Hell Nah. But he is a CENTER MAYNE!!1! lol....

Your logic is :biggums:

[TheCorporation]

West is a little bit underrated. He has a case for top 10 still.

Not a chance.

[jongib369]

So you think the Center position is more important than SG/SF?

Well, that may be, depending on the player.

Example 1:

C: Shaquille O'Neal
SG: James Harden

Yes, the Center position is more important. Why? He is a better player, and has won 4 rings, 3 Finals MVPs, etc.

Example 2:

C: Wilt
SG: Jordan

Yes, the SG position is more important. Why? He is a better player, and has won 6 rings, 6 Finals MVPs, etc.

So, saying you rate players based on their position is stupid.

Is Divac better than Jordan? Hell Nah. But he is a CENTER MAYNE!!1! lol....

Your logic is :biggums:

Of course it depends on the player . The fact you think my logic is that tarded is almost insulting lmao. Not to insult you, but I think the point I was trying to make went over your head and or I didn't explain it well enough...I've got an idea that may prove my point but it's going to take a little bit of time for me to get the stats/put it all together....I'll PM you when Im done





Anyways...





"6 rings, 6 Finals MVPs, etc."

Jordan gets 1-3 rings tops IMO in the 60s with that same bulls team. Celtics will still dominate the era. Championships are a TEAM accomplishment. And if one team is more stacked you are usually shit out of luck

Imagine this...86 celtics, but replace Parish with either Tim Duncan or Hakeem to make a more modern comparison....Do the bulls have a chance in hell against that team? No, so you can't blame only Wilt for not winning as many rings

In that fantasy land where he only gets 1-3....Jordan is still top 3 for me...If not 1 or 2. Like I said I'm always changing my mind...Some may call it flip flopping but with something like this....Just goes to show you how great these guys are...

[TheCorporation]

Of course it depends on the player . The fact you think my logic is that tarded is almost insulting lmao. Not to insult you, but I think the point I was trying to make went over your head and or I didn't explain it well enough...I've got an idea that may prove my point but it's going to take a little bit of time for me to get the stats/put it all together....I'll PM you when Im done





Anyways...





"6 rings, 6 Finals MVPs, etc."

Jordan gets 1-3 rings tops IMO in the 60s with that same bulls team. Celtics will still dominate the era. Championships are a TEAM accomplishment. And if one team is more stacked you are usually shit out of luck

Imagine this...86 celtics, but replace Parish with either Tim Duncan or Hakeem to make a more modern comparison....Do the bulls have a chance in hell against that team? No, so you can't blame only Wilt for not winning as many rings

In that fantasy land where he only gets 1-3....Jordan is still top 3 for me...If not 1 or 2. Like I said I'm always changing my mind...Some may call it flip flopping but with something like this....Just goes to show you how great these guys are...

No, I don't think you're getting MY point. If a Center is so "important/dominant" then why did a SG in Michael Jordan accomplish more than any Center named Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, etc?

If a Center position is so much more important, why did Jordan's Bulls (sans a good center) gain so much success? What about LeBron's Heat? Same boat there. No Center needed. It's nice to have a Center, and they can be very important, but the fact remains. Give me the guy with 6 finals appearances, 6 finals MVPs, 11 consecutive scoring titles (that record will never ever be beaten) and a proven god/winner.

Wilt? LOL 2 rings in an era where he was up against 6'3 white guys. Choked with Jerry West too. Come on man, a position is only as important as the guy filling it.

You can take your "important" center spot with Joel Anthony. I will take the SF spot with LeBron James, since it's not as important or valuable. LOL

[TheCorporation]

Furthermore, yes, Jordan did have a great team around him. Pippen from his beginnings to his prime. Rodman, the best rebounder of all time. Kerr, Kukoc, Armstrong, Grant. And the best coach in sports history.

I think his teams were pretty good, wouldn't you say?

The only team that would give Jordan's Championship Bulls team a fit would be Shaq's Lakers.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Wilt? :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[TheCorporation]

Wilt? :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

I know, right?! I don't even know if I have Wilt in my top 5-10.

:lol

[SilkkTheShocker]

I know, right?! I don't even know if I have Wilt in my top 5-10.

:lol

Seriously.

DAT ERA :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Marchesk]

No, I don't think you're getting MY point. If a Center is so "important/dominant" then why did a SG in Michael Jordan accomplish more than any Center named Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, etc?

I guess six rings, six MVPs, and being the all-time scorer isn't enough, eh?

[Marchesk]

Wilt? :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/VS/Rivalry/02%20Stilt%20VS%20Alcindor/wiltvskareem.gif

[jongib369]

Furthermore, yes, Jordan did have a great team around him. Pippen from his beginnings to his prime. Rodman, the best rebounder of all time. Kerr, Kukoc, Armstrong, Grant. And the best coach in sports history.

I think his teams were pretty good, wouldn't you say?

The only team that would give Jordan's Championship Bulls team a fit would be Shaq's Lakers.
I'm so amazed at your logic I'm convinced you're just trolling. They were more stacked then any other team in that era along with good chemistry...Do you really think those Bulls could of beat an equally stacked team with a GOAT big?

Have you seen a single post about the injuries those lakers teams had? Or the fact they had possibly the most retarded coach ever when he joined the lakers...theres just SO much I could say I dont even want to say it LOL

:roll:

[zoom17]

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/VS/Rivalry/02%20Stilt%20VS%20Alcindor/wiltvskareem.gif

Wow one block he is the only one to block kareem:roll: :roll: :roll:

[TheCorporation]

I'm so amazed at your logic I'm convinced you're just trolling.

Ditto, Mr. "I ranked Wilt Chamberlin #1 among all NBA players, and Jordan #3."

Also, another one of your gems: I give Jordan credit for 1-3 rings because it Russell's era he would only win 1-3 rings. :roll: :roll: :roll:

[ProfessorMurder]

I don't really mind your list, but I think KG deserves a top 20 spot. Probably Dirk too.

That gif made me laugh.

[jongib369]

Keep in mind this is always changing...And I prefer tiers.

1. Wilt Chamberlain

2. Kareem

3. Jordan

4. Russell

5. Oscar

6. Bird

7. Magic

8. Shaq

9. Hakeem

10. West

11. Duncan

12. Moses

13. LeBron

14.Kobe

15. Malone

16. Baylor

17. Dr J

18. Barkley

19. Stockton

20. Spanoulis No not really Euroleague calm your nuts...Thurmond, Garnett or Robinson and a few others come to mind worhty


:rockon:

[jongib369]

Ditto, Mr. "I ranked Wilt Chamberlin #1 among all NBA players, and Jordan #3."

Also, another one of your gems: I give Jordan credit for 1-3 rings because it Russell's era he would only win 1-3 rings. :roll: :roll: :roll:
So not judging a player by how many rings he got, because it's a team accomplishment...Still ranking him 1-3 with me USUALLY ranking him above Wilt or tied when I use tiers is trolling? Riiiiiight

[jongib369]

Wow one block he is the only one to block kareem:roll: :roll: :roll:
He blocked the SKYHOOK twice in one play....An old fart on shit knees

[Marchesk]

Seriously.

DAT ERA :bowdown: :bowdown:

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view3/4813316/nba-dunks-from-the-1960s-o.gif

Unfortunately, the gif generation quality isn't so hot. 2:32 - 2:42 on youtube, we can thank Cavs for hours of watching grainy videos.

http://youtu.be/4seN0mugh1k?t=2m32s

[aj1987]

Wow! Dirk in the top 20, but no Wade?

[jongib369]

Ditto, Mr. "I ranked Wilt Chamberlin #1 among all NBA players, and Jordan #3."

Also, another one of your gems: I give Jordan credit for 1-3 rings because it Russell's era he would only win 1-3 rings. :roll: :roll: :roll:
http://b.vimeocdn.com/ts/343/064/343064634_640.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT9Oq3ISjfs

Don't make me blast you with itty bitty "bullets" packed with Knowledge mang

lmao

Quote from a movie if anyone is dumb enough to think I'm making a threat lmao

[jongib369]

Wilt? :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-GuSEDd2hObA/UQyP9qI4QSI/AAAAAAAAEEk/r0YvjdsPSmg/s800/Sam%2520Jones%2520Celtics%2520Fast%2520Break2.gif

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-E2QaFKrp2J8/UQyTgkZ-_6I/AAAAAAAAEFY/KPvgplP_TYQ/s800/JoeCaldwellDunk.gif

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-WPxPfxWt8vQ/UQyTpLxGKUI/AAAAAAAAEFo/AgnZwjF2kL4/s800/GusJohnsonDunk.gif[/QUOTE]

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Vy1F0VB7IwE/UQytNdg07JI/AAAAAAAAEJ0/tmfA9ARfGKI/s800/WiltFootwork1.gif

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/--3oPwC10q_M/UQyi5dbDtCI/AAAAAAAAEIU/4k4JlbkQNto/s800/Willis%2520Torching%2520Bill%2520Russell.gif

[jongib369]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view3/4813316/nba-dunks-from-the-1960s-o.gif

Unfortunately, the gif generation quality isn't so hot. 2:32 - 2:42 on youtube, we can thank Cavs for hours of watching grainy videos.

http://youtu.be/4seN0mugh1k?t=2m32s
Check out the GIFS I posted

[Marchesk]

That Gus Johnson dunk is just nasty.

[Marchesk]

Check out the GIFS I posted

Did you make those yourself?

[jongib369]

Did you make those yourself?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO4pAiCpaY4

Nope, unless I'm mistaken it was all done by Cavsftw.

[aj1987]

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-E2QaFKrp2J8/UQyTgkZ-_6I/AAAAAAAAEFY/KPvgplP_TYQ/s800/JoeCaldwellDunk.gif

:roll: @ #16.

[jongib369]

http://media.tumblr.com/17dc6cad3ad047962e9856c7caf8517a/tumblr_inline_mjzy92b4QW1qz4rgp.gif

[Psileas]

Keep in mind this is always changing...And I prefer tiers.

1. Wilt Chamberlain

2. Kareem

3. Jordan

4. Russell

5. Oscar

6. Bird

7. Magic

8. Shaq

9. Hakeem

10. West

11. Duncan

12. Moses

13. LeBron

14.Kobe

15. Malone

16. Baylor

17. Dr J

18. Barkley

19. Stockton

20. Spanoulis No not really Euroleague calm your nuts...Thurmond, Garnett or Robinson and a few others come to mind worhty

http://24.media.tumblr.com/76eeefb8a253d6a822d28dc624cadcb6/tumblr_mnvgi9MGUH1stdmcbo6_r1_250.gif


This list is so ****ing hard because most of these players have a case for top 10....Then on top of that, I value the center position so much it's difficult to take guards over them... Big whoops if I forgot to mention someone X)

Seems like people who don't want to piss off the legion of Wilt haters prefer tiers, but I'll say this is a great top-4, though I tend to place Kareem at #3-4. Oscar is too high, although he, at times, suffered the same fate with early Wilt, falling to the great Celtics dynasty in some prime seasons (also, to the unstoppable '67 Sixers). Magic, Bird and Shaq make my #5-7, but I'm not 100% positive that I have to rank Magic and Bird together or with a margin of 1 place (people claim they should be "connected" for some reason, as if Wilt-Russell or Malone-Stockton or Shaq-Duncan are usually "connected"). Kobe is a few positions too low and so is Dr.J.
The players in your top-18 constitute my choices as well, though, as I've shown, not in that order. Stockton would be a bit lower in my list. My top-20 would end with 2 of the Robinson-Pettit-Garnett-Dirk-Havlicek qientet.

[BoutPractice]

The best way to do it is tiers with specific, as opposed to global, criteria.

For instance, for individual dominance at their peak, you would have Jordan, Shaq, Wilt, and Kareem in the top tier...
For what I like to call the "biggest contribution to the most wins", guys like Magic, Russell and Duncan would move to the top tier, while a Dirk, for example, would be put in the same tier as other superstars generally thought to be above him...
For career accomplishments and longevity, the top tier would include Russell, Kareem and Jordan...
And for "greatness/legacy" (completely subjective but important qualities for most fans), it would include Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Magic and Bird.

[Kurosawa0]

This is better, but I would put Wilt over LBJ and Kobe, drop Isiah and Wade, replace them with Pettit (2X MVP, 1 ring - only player along with Wilt to beat Russell fair and square) and Hondo (multiple rings including 2 as the man).

I really have a hard time ranking Wilt and Shaq above guys who really cared. Wilt was a bad teammate and a coach killer for a big part of his career. That matters.

Here's the thing, what makes Hondo better than Scottie Pippen? I'd have them together in the 20-30 range.

I have Pettit further back with Mikan. Two greats that, let's be honest, may not be in the league today if you simply transplanted them to the modern era. That's my biggest complaint about having Russel at #2 like I do. What would a 6'8 center who couldn't really score be in today's game? Is he Ben Wallace?

[KG215]

I really have a hard time ranking Wilt and Shaq above guys who really cared. Wilt was a bad teammate and a coach killer for a big part of his career. That matters.

Here's the thing, what makes Hondo better than Scottie Pippen? I'd have them together in the 20-30 range.

I have Pettit further back with Mikan. Two greats that, let's be honest, may not be in the league today if you simply transplanted them to the modern era. That's my biggest complaint about having Russel at #2 like I do. What would a 6'8 center who couldn't really score be in today's game? Is he Ben Wallace?
Except Russell is actually 6'10" or 6'11" (listed) in today's NBA. He's taller than Dwight Howard who's listed at 6'11".

[LAZERUSS]

I really have a hard time ranking Wilt and Shaq above guys who really cared. Wilt was a bad teammate and a coach killer for a big part of his career. That matters.

Here's the thing, what makes Hondo better than Scottie Pippen? I'd have them together in the 20-30 range.

I have Pettit further back with Mikan. Two greats that, let's be honest, may not be in the league today if you simply transplanted them to the modern era. That's my biggest complaint about having Russel at #2 like I do. What would a 6'8 center who couldn't really score be in today's game? Is he Ben Wallace?

KG215 covered the height. Russell was an eyelash from 6-10. Furthermore, he was a world-class high-jumper.

As for his inability to score...

In the 59-60 Finals, he averged 20.7 ppg on .446 shooting (in a league that shot .395.)

In the 61-62 Finals, he averaged 22.9 ppg on a .543 FG% (in a league that shot .426, and a post-season that shot .411.) Included was a 30 point game seven (to go along with 40 rebounds.)

In the 62-63 Finals, Russell averaged 20.0 ppg on .467 shooting.

In the 64-65 Finals, Russell averaged 17.8 ppg on a ... hold on... .702 FG%.

And in the 65-66 Finals, Russell averaged 23.6 ppg, on a .538 FG%.


And I didn't list his apg, which surpassed 6 apg in the some of his post-seasons. Nor his rebounding, which stands at a career 24.9 rpg in his post-season career. Nor his defense, which has widely been acknowledged as the greatest ever played.

[DMAVS41]

The commonly accepted ranking criteria with my own preferences factoring in;

1. MJ
2. Russell
3. Magic
4. Duncan
5. Wilt
6. Kareem
7. Bird
8. Hakeem
9. Shaq
10. Kobe
11. Lebron
12. West
13. Oscar
14. Dirk
15. KG
16. Moses
17. Baylor
18. Pettit
19. Erving
20. Hondo

[Jameerthefear]

The commonly accepted ranking criteria with my own preferences factoring in;

1. MJ
2. Russell
3. Magic
4. Duncan
5. Wilt
6. Kareem
7. Bird
8. Hakeem
9. Shaq
10. Kobe
11. Lebron
12. West
13. Oscar
14. Dirk
15. KG
16. Moses
17. Baylor
18. Pettit
19. Erving
20. Hondo
never seen someone rank Duncan that high :o

[tpols]

The commonly accepted ranking criteria with my own preferences factoring in;

1. MJ
2. Russell
3. Magic
4. Duncan
5. Wilt
6. Kareem
7. Bird
8. Hakeem
9. Shaq
10. Kobe
11. Lebron
12. West
13. Oscar
14. Dirk
15. KG
16. Moses
17. Baylor
18. Pettit
19. Erving
20. Hondo
Duncan has no case over Kareem. And Dirk has very weak case over Moses..

[aj1987]

1. MJ
2. KAJ
3. Magic
4. Bill
5. Shaq
6. Wilt
7. Duncan
8. Bird
9. Kobe
10. Lebron
11. Hakeem
12. Oscar
13. West
14. Erving
15. Moses
16. Baylor
17. Barkley
18. Pettit
19. Wade
20. Hondo

[DMAVS41]

Duncan has no case over Kareem. And Dirk has very weak case over Moses..

I think a case absolutely can be made for Duncan on the Wilt/Kareem tier.

I put Dirk over Moses out of personal preference. Was never impressed with Moses the way a lot of people were. I'd rather have Dirk.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'll go 15, since 15-20 is really splitting hairs(then again, so is most of the top 10..)

1. MJ
2. Russell
3. KAJ
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Duncan
8. Shaq
9. Kobe
10. Lebron
11. Hakeem
12. Oscar
13. West
14. Doctor
15. Moses

[tpols]

I think a case absolutely can be made for Duncan on the Wilt/Kareem tier.

I put Dirk over Moses out of personal preference. Was never impressed with Moses the way a lot of people were. I'd rather have Dirk.
Nah..

Kareem most offensively skilled big man ever.. Great passer, great defender.. Duke it out with Walton, Wilt, Hakeem, Moses, Thurmond, pretty much golden age for big men and he was the best.

Considered the best player in the league for twice as many years as Duncan even had a case for..

Kareem is a much more dominant offensive player, while providing similar defensive impact. 7'2 lanky super skilled center who can defend the rim and rebound with the best of them.. The gap between their offense is twice as big as the gap between their defense. Much higher volume much higher efficiency, better control and commanding of an offense..

It'd be one thing if Duncan had much better intangibles or efficiency or clutchness but he really doesn't beat Kareem in any of those categories.. There's no way you can look at Tim Duncan's overall impact and say he dominated or controlled games more than KAJ.

Kareem better peak and better longevity as well.


Better accolades
More rings
Significantly better peak
Better longevity
More big man competition

Is there a single metric Duncan beats Kareem in? It's really not even close.

[branslowski]

Wade getting disrespected hard body :oldlol:

If you think about placing Dirk in ur top 20, how can you not have Wade?

Wade 3titles and a Finals MVP and for a 3+ year stretch was considered top 3 player in the game. Dirk has never ever been considered that among his peers and Dirk also has 1 title 1 Finals MVP.....Also lost HEAD TO HEAD vs Wade and Wade dominated. I like Dirk, but you can't place him in the top 20 and leave out Wade.

[tpols]

1. KAJ
1B. Jordan
1C. Russell
4. Bird
5. Wilt
6. Magic
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Hakeem
10. Duncan
11. Lebron
12. Moses
13. Oscar
14. West
15. Julius Irving
16. KG
17. Barkley
18. Wade
19. Dirk
20. Baylor

[tpols]

Wade getting disrespected hard body :oldlol:

If you think about placing Dirk in ur top 20, how can you not have Wade?

Wade 3titles and a Finals MVP and for a 3+ year stretch was considered top 3 player in the game. Dirk has never ever been considered that among his peers and Dirk also has 1 title 1 Finals MVP.....Also lost HEAD TO HEAD vs Wade and Wade dominated. I like Dirk, but you can't place him in the top 20 and leave out Wade.
Wade was a better player than Dirk ever was at his peak.. And will almost certainly finish above him when he's retired

[DMAVS41]

Wade getting disrespected hard body :oldlol:

If you think about placing Dirk in ur top 20, how can you not have Wade?

Wade 3titles and a Finals MVP and for a 3+ year stretch was considered top 3 player in the game. Dirk has never ever been considered that among his peers and Dirk also has 1 title 1 Finals MVP.....Also lost HEAD TO HEAD vs Wade and Wade dominated. I like Dirk, but you can't place him in the top 20 and leave out Wade.

Longevity. Only reason imo.

Same with me ranking Kobe over Lebron. Lebron clearly better player. Will trounce Kobe in rankings with any longevity. But I did the rankings as of now...not projecting.

[DMAVS41]

1. KAJ
1B. Jordan
1C. Russell
4. Bird
5. Wilt
6. Magic
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Hakeem
10. Duncan
11. Lebron
12. Moses
13. Oscar
14. West
15. Julius Irving
16. KG
17. Barkley
18. Wade
19. Dirk
20. Baylor

Solid list. Don't see any argument for Kobe over Hakeem or Duncan though...

Playoff stats;

Duncan 22/12/3 55% TS 24.9 PER
Hakeem 26/11/3 57% TS 25.7 PER

Kobe 26/5/5 54% TS 22.4 PER

Factor in the enormous gap in defensive and rebounding impact....

Just don't see many, if any, logical reasons to rank Kobe higher.

And certainly don't see any arguments for Barkley over Dirk based on your criteria.

[DMAVS41]

Nah..

Kareem most offensively skilled big man ever.. Great passer, great defender.. Duke it out with Walton, Wilt, Hakeem, Moses, Thurmond, pretty much golden age for big men and he was the best.

Considered the best player in the league for twice as many years as Duncan even had a case for..

Kareem is a much more dominant offensive player, while providing similar defensive impact. 7'2 lanky super skilled center who can defend the rim and rebound with the best of them.. The gap between their offense is twice as big as the gap between their defense. Much higher volume much higher efficiency, better control and commanding of an offense..

It'd be one thing if Duncan had much better intangibles or efficiency or clutchness but he really doesn't beat Kareem in any of those categories.. There's no way you can look at Tim Duncan's overall impact and say he dominated or controlled games more than KAJ.

Kareem better peak and better longevity as well.


Better accolades
More rings
Significantly better peak
Better longevity
More big man competition

Is there a single metric Duncan beats Kareem in? It's really not even close.

Much of this came in the 70's.

This is where PER actually matters because it is relative to the league and allows you to compare stats across eras.

I missed pre 1975 Kareem, but I'd take Duncan over him defensively overall.

Playoff career PER:

Kareem 23.0
Duncan 24.9

The rings argument doesn't even fly. Imagine Duncan playing 9 years with a transcendent all time great like Magic to take the load off of him. Hell, Duncan has 4 on his own.

[tpols]

Solid list. Don't see any argument for Kobe over Hakeem or Duncan though...
Well of course you don't. :oldlol:

My main reasoning comes from seeing them go head to head. Duncan provides more consistent baseline play in and out every game. But one thing that was always apparent was he couldn't take over games offensively in spurts like Kobe could to win games. Defense limits a team slowly but surely over time.. But it can be nullified by offensive explosions that put a game on ice at any given time.

Kobe has multiple insane series against Duncan and the Spurs 35/6/6 type series where he just shit on them and there's nothing that steady defense could do to stop it. There head to head playoff record is as lopsided as it gets.. Both in terms of team and individual.

So it's hard for me to say one player is clearly better than another when the other player pretty much owns his supposed superior most of the time they meet up.

Add superior longevity totals.. Things like most playoff points all time, top 3 scoring total of all time and counting.. Kobe's got slight edge in longevity, accolades, rings/winning, head to head playoff dominance.. He's got a case over Duncan.

Hakeem is tougher because he's a better player than Duncan peak wise so Kobe probably wouldn't have owned his teams as much.. And overall he's a better peak two way player than Kobe.. Hakeem was dominant offense and defense. Duncan was not dominant offensiv ly, just defensively.

[jongib369]

It's funny how pretty much EVERYONE ranks Bird and Magic right next to each other. :roll:

[tpols]

[/B]
Much of this came in the 70's.

This is where PER actually matters because it is relative to the league and allows you to compare stats across eras.

I missed pre 1975 Kareem, but I'd take Duncan over him defensively overall.

Playoff career PER:

Kareem 23.0
Duncan 24.9

The rings argument doesn't even fly. Imagine Duncan playing 9 years with a transcendent all time great like Magic to take the load off of him. Hell, Duncan has 4 on his own.
I'm sorry I can't boil down a whole career to one number..

[DMAVS41]

Well of course you don't. :oldlol:

My main reasoning comes from seeing them go head to head. Duncan provides more consistent baseline play in and out every game. But one thing that was always apparent was he couldn't take over games offensively in spurts like Kobe could to win games. Defense limits a team slowly but surely over time.. But it can be nullified by offensive explosions that put a game on ice at any given time.

Kobe has multiple insane series against Duncan and the Spurs 35/6/6 type series where he just shit on them and there's nothing that steady defense could do to stop it. There head to head playoff record is as lopsided as it gets.. Both in terms of team and individual.

So it's hard for me to say one player is clearly better than another when the other player pretty much owns his supposed superior most of the time they meet up.

Add superior longevity totals.. Things like most playoff points all time, top 3 scoring total of all time and counting.. Kobe's got slight edge in longevity, accolades, rings/winning, head to head playoff dominance.. He's got a case over Duncan.

Hakeem is tougher because he's a better player than Duncan peak wise so Kobe probably wouldn't have owned his teams as much.. And overall he's a better peak two way player than Kobe.. Hakeem was dominant offense and defense. Duncan was dominant offensiv ly, just defensively.

Head to head? What kind of nonsense is that? So you want to base a career off of what a sg does when he plays a pf/c on another team in the playoffs? LOL

And how many series have they played against each other without Shaq involved? Is it really just one?

Duncan has better stats. Impacts the game infinitely more on defense and rebounding. Won more titles as the best player of his team...more consistent in the regular season.

Higher overall win percentage...etc.

No logical reasoning...especially if you stay consistent with your Kareem criteria...which of course you aren't.

This is why I laugh when Kobe stans claim playing with Shaq hurts him in the rankings. Uh...no it doesn't....Kobe wouldn't even be thought of top 10 without those 3 rings...and no ****ing way is Kobe winning those years without playing with Shaq or Duncan on his team.

[fpliii]

It's funny how pretty much EVERYONE ranks Bird and Magic right next to each other. :roll:

I don't do rankings anymore, but I actually have Bird a level ahead of Magic (don't want to get into it here, when I have more free time I can post as to why I feel that way). Probably in the distinct minority here, and is likely considered sacrilege for a Lakers fan, but it is what it is.

[DMAVS41]

I'm sorry I can't boil down a whole career to one number..

I figured you would say that, but that isn't what I'm doing. I'm showing you that you can't make some of the claims you make because they just aren't objectively true.

I of course have no problem with someone ranking Kareem over Duncan...I might do that in a year as these lists are fluid for me as I watch old games and reflect...etc.

But you can't claim things like..."there isn't one metric that favors Duncan" or "it's not even close"

When the sum total of their objective impact statistically in the games that actually matter...actually favors Duncan. And I already told you that I personally think Duncan was the better defender.

Like I said...my own preference are in there. Just like yours are in yours, but your reasons, for example, of ranking Kobe over Duncan seem incredibly flawed and weak. And I think you know this...head to head just seems like one of the silliest things ever.

They don't even play the same position...

[LAZERUSS]

I don't do rankings anymore, but I actually have Bird a level ahead of Magic (don't want to get into it here, when I have more free time I can post as to why I feel that way). Probably in the distinct minority here, and is likely considered sacrilege for a Lakers fan, but it is what it is.

Many do, but I certainly don't. In fact, I have Magic way ahead of Bird on my "list."

Still, everyone is entitled to their (educated and researched) opinions.

[Marchesk]

I have Pettit further back with Mikan. Two greats that, let's be honest, may not be in the league today if you simply transplanted them to the modern era. That's my biggest complaint about having Russel at #2 like I do. What would a 6'8 center who couldn't really score be in today's game? Is he Ben Wallace?

Russell did more things better than Wallace, in addition to being a great defender and rebounder.

As for transplanting players across eras, since we don't have time machines, and they didn't grow up with today's advantages, the best you can do is look at how they did relative to their competition. Russell won more than anyone ever, with a lot of good teammates, and Wilt rewrote the record book, with not as many good teammates, but still played on two of the greatest teams ever. Meanwhile, Kareem has as many titles and MVPs as Jordan, while being the all-time scoring leader.

So those three have strong cases for being in the top 5.

[tpols]

Head to head? What kind of nonsense is that? So you want to base a career off of what a sg does when he plays a pf/c on another team in the playoffs? LOL

Duncan has better stats. Impacts the game infinitely more on defense and rebounding. Won more titles as the best player of his team...more consistent in the regular season.

Higher overall win percentage...etc.

No logical reasoning...especially if you stay consistent with your Kareem criteria...which of course you aren't.

This is why I laugh when Kobe stans claim playing with Shaq hurts him in the rankings. Uh...no it doesn't....Kobe wouldn't even be thought of top 10 without those 3 rings...and no ****ing way is Kobe winning those years without playing with Shaq or Duncan on his team.
How am I not staying Consistent?

Kareem more dominant offensively can control the game from in the most impactful way an individual can. Same with Kobe. Their both much more potent offensive threats than Duncan.. And in their primes they weren't slouches defensively either. Consistent.

Duncan was considered the best player in the league for maybe 3 seasons.. Same with Kobe. Consistent.

Better accolades and longevity for both Kobe(slightly) and KAJ. Consistent.

I brought up who they faced competition wise and how they fared against their elite peers. Consistent.

Only difference between KAJ/duncan and kobe/duncan comparison is peak play.. Where KAJ trounced both of them. Which is why he's at the top.

[fpliii]

Many do, but I certainly don't. In fact, I have Magic way ahead of Bird on my "list."

Still, everyone is entitled to their (educated and researched) opinions.

I'll start a thread on this around October. As I've said, too busy for the next month and change.

[DMAVS41]

How am I not staying Consistent?

Kareem more dominant offensively can control the game from in the most impactful way an individual can. Same with Kobe. Their both much more potent offensive threats than Duncan.. And in their primes they weren't slouches defensively either. Consistent.

Duncan was considered the best player in the league for maybe 3 seasons.. Same with Kobe. Consistent.

Better accolades and longevity for both Kobe(slightly) and KAJ. Consistent.

I brought up who they faced competition wise and how they fared against their elite peers. Consistent.

Only difference between KAJ/duncan and kobe/duncan comparison is peak play.. Where KAJ trounced both of them. Which is why he's at the top.

So you remove context from your rankings...that is fine...just needed to know.

I don't get this "considered" the best player argument. Duncan was just better than Kobe overall...and the objective measures show that. And when you factor that into the defensive impact of Duncan...it just trumps the "spurt scoring" you value so highly...as that same "spurt scoring" cost Kobe and the Lakers many playoff games and series.

Double edged sword.

Again...give Duncan the kind of help Kobe got. Can't even imagine the results. Context.

Which is why when you say Kobe's career was hurt by playing with Shaq...makes conversations like these even more laughable.

[DMAVS41]

Solid list. Don't see any argument for Kobe over Hakeem or Duncan though...

Playoff stats;

Duncan 22/12/3 55% TS 24.9 PER
Hakeem 26/11/3 57% TS 25.7 PER

Kobe 26/5/5 54% TS 22.4 PER

Factor in the enormous gap in defensive and rebounding impact....

Just don't see many, if any, logical reasons to rank Kobe higher.

And certainly don't see any arguments for Barkley over Dirk based on your criteria.

Spurt scoring just doesn't make up for the differences here. And this is before we even get into help and leadership and being a teammate...etc.

Areas in which Duncan destroys Kobe.

[jongib369]

Many do, but I certainly don't. In fact, I have Magic way ahead of Bird on my "list."

Still, everyone is entitled to their (educated and researched) opinions.
Yeah from what I remember you posted a bunch of stats of Bird not coming through in the clutch. You should make a post entitled

"Bird VS Wilt in must win situations"

[tpols]

Spurt scoring just doesn't make up for the differences here.
You don't understand basketball then.. Besides the obvious skewing of numbers using Kobe's stats from when he had a limited role that hav the nothing to do with what he was capable of in his prime, spurt scoring and offensive takeovers cannot be seen in PER.

If Duncan scores 5 points in each quarter it's not going to create as much separation between his team and the opponent as Kobe going off for 20 in one quarter. Kobe put Spurs series on ice and many others are by taking over games offensively.. Not just passively stacking points through out the course of the game. Duncan was never as dominant offensively as Kobe or KAJ were.

. Despite you using numbers completely out of context. Neither are indicative of their prime dominance.

[DMAVS41]

You don't understand basketball then.. Besides the obvious skewing of numbers using Kobe's stats from when he had a limited role that hav the nothing to do with what he was capable of in his prime, spurt scoring and offensive takeovers cannot be seen in PER.

If Duncan scores 5 points in each quarter it's not going to create as much separation between his team and the opponent as Kobe going off for 20 in one quarter. Kobe put Spurs series on ice and many others are by taking over games offensively.. Not just passively stacking points through out the course of the game. Duncan was never as dominant offensively as Kobe or KAJ were.

. Despite you using numbers completely out of context. Neither are indicative of their prime dominance.

Then that hurts Kobe's longevity if you ignore his younger years. LOL

I understand basketball just fine. And with your spurt scoring...comes the 7 of 25 chuck fests that shoot the Lakers out of playoff games. Kind of like the 03 Spurs series. The 04 Finals. 08 finals.

Especially when said players in question (duncan/hakeem) are also capable of dropping high point totals as well. Obviously not in the same way Kobe does in what you are talking about, but it's not like Duncan never dominates offensively or something.

And again...that defensive impact and objectively better statistics trump a guy that can either shoot you in or out of games.

And you can't just define the overall impact of a player like Duncan by essentially ignoring his best attribute. You can use word play to rationalize anything you like, but we all know Kobe was never as dominant overall as this;

25/15/5 58% TS 28.4 PER

No version of Kobe in any playoff run even comes close to that impact. And that is without really even factoring in Duncan's defensive impact....LOL

And that was a title run.

In fact, Kobe's best PER in the playoffs would be Duncan's 6th best...ROFL

Do you really think Kobe was ever as good as that in the playoffs? If so...what year?

[LAZERUSS]

Yeah from what I remember you posted a bunch of stats of Bird not coming through in the clutch. You should make a post entitled

"Bird VS Wilt in must win situations"

I havev posted something similar before, and won't do so now, but while Chamberlain was brilliant in his biggest post-season games, and series, Bird, as great as he was, was arguably the greatest "choker" of the all-time greats in his.

[tpols]

Then that hurts Kobe's longevity if you ignore his younger years. LOL

I understand basketball just fine. And with your spurt scoring...comes the 7 of 25 chuck fests that shoot the Lakers out of playoff games. Kind of like the 03 Spurs series. The 04 Finals. 08 finals.

Especially when said players in question (duncan/hakeem) are also capable of dropping high point totals as well. Obviously not in the same way Kobe does in what you are talking about, but it's not like Duncan never dominates offensively or something.

And again...that defensive impact and objectively better statistics trump a guy that can either shoot you in or out of games.
I never get why people say that.

You CAN bring up career totals and denounce using career stat comparisons out of context.

KAJ scored a bunch of points when he was old as hell. And those seasons skew his career average IF you're comparing him to someone who didn't follow the same career trajectory as him and trying to make a look they're similar offensively in their primes argument.



Adrian Peterson PER would demolish most older goat running backs right now.. And while he has GOAT potential, the main reason for such a difference would be he hasn't gotten old and had the subpar seasons that come along with it to drop this averages.

If you're going to compare how good players were, you use an even prime v. prime Window. Which you would NEVER want to do. :oldlol:

Careers use accolades, totals, winning and how good a player was. They are separate categories

[DMAVS41]

I never get why people say that.

You CAN bring up career totals and denounce using career stat comparisons out of context.

KAJ scored a bunch of points when he was old as hell. And those seasons skew his career average IF you're comparing him to someone who didn't follow the same career trajectory as him and trying to make a look they're similar offensively in their primes argument.



Adrian Peterson PER would demolish most older goat running backs right now.. And while he has GOAT potential, the main reason for such a difference would be he hasn't gotten old and had the subpar seasons that come along with it to drop this averages.

If you're going to compare how good players were, you use an even prime v. prime Window. Which you would NEVER want to do. :oldlol:

Careers use accolades, totals, winning and how good a player was. They are separate categories

You can break it down however you want....but you can't ignore the fact that Kobe wasn't nearly as good as Duncan early on in their respective careers.

You can do prime vs prime or peak vs peak with Duncan, Kobe, and Hakeem...by all means.

I ask again.

When was Kobe as good as 25/15/5 58% TS...again...that doesn't even factor in Duncan's absurdly huge defensive impact compared to Kobe. And this dominance came as by far the best player on his team as the main focal point for everything...so the other teams mainly tried to stop Duncan....so the attention BS argument Kobe fans spew off about as excuses for Kobe won't even fly here.

What year was Kobe as good as that in the playoffs? Please answer.

See...Kobe never was...not by any standard. And you'd think he'd have at least one year in which he was that good if you want to put him on that level. But he wasn't...and he could not have had more chances.

I mean...take a look at Duncan in 06;

26/11/3 63% TS 30.4 PER...LOL...

[fpliii]

I have Pettit further back with Mikan. Two greats that, let's be honest, may not be in the league today if you simply transplanted them to the modern era. That's my biggest complaint about having Russel at #2 like I do. What would a 6'8 center who couldn't really score be in today's game? Is he Ben Wallace?

Why are Pettit/Mikan always grouped together in these comparisons? Big George dominated his era, but before the shotclock was introduced the game was completely different (and its introduction, coupled with injuries, forced Mikan out of the game). Pettit played his entire career in a league with a shotclock and thrived, so it's weird to put them together. Is it because they're both white and played more than 45 years ago? If you have stylistic reasons for the comparison I'm interested in hearing, but it's just weird to me.

I won't get into the Russell thing since it's been beaten to death, but there's a lot wrong with those two sentences.

[KG215]

Why are Pettit/Mikan always grouped together in these comparisons? Big George dominated his era, but before the shotclock was introduced the game was completely different (and its introduction, coupled with injuries, forced Mikan out of the game). Pettit played his entire career in a league with a shotclock and thrived, so it's weird to put them together. Is it because they're both white and played more than 45 years ago? If you have stylistic reasons for the comparison I'm interested in hearing, but it's just weird to me.
With Mikan, sure, I can kind of understand where people come from with discrediting him, mainly for the reasons you noted. But Pettit? I mean, like you said, he played and thrived in the shot clock Russell/Wilt era. Was he not considered on or close to that same tier of Russell, Wilt, West, Baylor, and Oscar at the time?


I won't get into the Russell thing since it's been beaten to death, but there's a lot wrong with those two sentences.
Why do people always come back to Ben Wallace for Bill Russell? I'll never understand it, but that's a very common modern day comparison. For starters, Ben Wallace was something like 6'6" without shoes, yet people think he and Russell are around the same height; when, in fact, Russell is taller than Howard (without shoes) and a shade under 6'10", meaning he would probably be listed at 6'11" in today's NBA. And the 215 pound weight you see on BBR is, from what I've read, not even close to accurate. Pretty sure CavsFTW has pointed out he was in the 245 range or so in the middle of and late in his career. And, given the advanced training and weight lifting of today, I'm sure he'd probably bulk up to 250+ if he were a current era player.

And while I don't know how accurate this is, I don't think it's too far-fetched to say he was just as athletic as Dwight Howard, if not more athletic. So basically he was maybe/probably a slightly taller and slightly more athletic Dwight Howard. Which I still wouldn't agree with, because I think Russell was considerably more impactful overall than Howard, but the Ben Wallace comparisons have never made much sense to me.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Is Wilt even top 10?

[TheCorporation]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Shaquille O'Neal
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Bill Russell
6. LeBron James
7. Tim Duncan
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Larry Bird
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Wilt Chamberlin
12. Oscar Robertson
13. Doctor J
14. Kevin Garnett
15. Karl Malone
16. Scottie Pippen
17. Dwyane Wade
18. Charles Barkely
19. David Robinson
20. Dirk Nowitzki

[Psileas]

Why are Pettit/Mikan always grouped together in these comparisons? Big George dominated his era, but before the shotclock was introduced the game was completely different (and its introduction, coupled with injuries, forced Mikan out of the game). Pettit played his entire career in a league with a shotclock and thrived, so it's weird to put them together. Is it because they're both white and played more than 45 years ago? If you have stylistic reasons for the comparison I'm interested in hearing, but it's just weird to me.

I won't get into the Russell thing since it's been beaten to death, but there's a lot wrong with those two sentences.

This is what I wondered about myself. There's no other reason than the questionable quality of black and white videos of both. Pettit was, at times, guarded even by Russell and, although he rarely outplayed him, he sure had his way of usually not being embarassed.
We simply have no idea how Mikan would perform under these circumstances. He played like 30 games with a shot clock during his brief comeback and he wasn't anywhere near what he used to be just 1.5 seasons before then. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, since he returned without being really prepared, while his knees were not healthy, but I'll still guess Pettit was on another level.

[Psileas]

Why are Pettit/Mikan always grouped together in these comparisons? Big George dominated his era, but before the shotclock was introduced the game was completely different (and its introduction, coupled with injuries, forced Mikan out of the game). Pettit played his entire career in a league with a shotclock and thrived, so it's weird to put them together. Is it because they're both white and played more than 45 years ago? If you have stylistic reasons for the comparison I'm interested in hearing, but it's just weird to me.

I won't get into the Russell thing since it's been beaten to death, but there's a lot wrong with those two sentences.

This is what I wondered about myself. There's no other reason than the questionable quality of black and white videos of both. Pettit was, at times, guarded even by Russell and, although he rarely outplayed him, he sure had his way of usually not being embarassed.
We simply have no idea how Mikan would perform under these circumstances. He played like 30 games with a shot clock during his brief comeback and he wasn't anywhere near what he used to be just 1.5 seasons before then. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, since he returned without being really prepared, while his knees were not healthy, but I'll still guess Pettit was on another level.

[jongib369]

This is what I wondered about myself. There's no other reason than the questionable quality of black and white videos of both. Pettit was, at times, guarded even by Russell and, although he rarely outplayed him, he sure had his way of usually not being embarassed.
We simply have no idea how Mikan would perform under these circumstances. He played like 30 games with a shot clock during his brief comeback and he wasn't anywhere near what he used to be just 1.5 seasons before then. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, since he returned without being really prepared, while his knees were not healthy, but I'll still guess Pettit was on another level.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCgDx0Go2v0

Great mix of him, better than my own

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx69x0B7U00

[Marchesk]

Is Wilt even top 10?

http://www.dudesnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/wiltviking.jpg

[jongib369]

Is Wilt even top 10?
http://15.media.tumblr.com/PwCIEKd8Nmi8ogy24kYFqtrFo1_500.jpg

[Marchesk]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Shaquille O'Neal
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Bill Russell
6. LeBron James
7. Tim Duncan
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Larry Bird
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Wilt Chamberlin
12. Oscar Robertson
13. Doctor J
14. Kevin Garnett
15. Karl Malone
16. Scottie Pippen
17. Dwyane Wade
18. Charles Barkely
19. David Robinson
20. Dirk Nowitzki

Seems like someone is missing from the list.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/d11571d86585123e260048ec3376f9c6/tumblr_mim8xrMdwV1renuivo1_500.gif

[branslowski]

Dmavs did shock me with placing Kobe at 10....He has a clear bias against Kobe so U was expecting him to place Kobe at 25 or somethin...Even though the facts have Kobe at 7-9.....Shocking none the less...And Lebron currently is better than Kobe due to age.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Dmavs did shock me with placing Kobe at 10....He has a clear bias against Kobe so U was expecting him to place Kobe at 25 or somethin...Even though the facts have Kobe at 7-9.....Shocking none the less...And Lebron currently is better than Kobe due to age.

Prime LeBron >>>> Prime Kobe

[branslowski]

Prime LeBron >>>> Prime Kobe

Not true, but expected post from you.....I do agree with you on ur Wilt stance though.

[red1]

Prime LeBron >>>> Prime Kobe
Would you consider a 26 year old player in his 8th year to be in his prime?







http://ihatelebronjames.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/LeBron-Choke.jpg

[KG215]

Not true, but expected post from you.....I do agree with you on ur Wilt stance though.
At the very least it's debatable, but I think LeBron the last 4 years has been better than Kobe was from 2006-2010.

[Fresh Kid]

Prime LeBron >>>> Prime Kobe
:roll:

[branslowski]

At the very least it's debatable, but I think LeBron the last 4 years has been better than Kobe was from 2006-2010.

:lol ok....

[b1imtf]

:lol ok....
Say what again

[KG215]

:lol ok....
Apparently you think that's some off the wall, outlandish thought...but it's not. I personally don't have LeBron ahead of Kobe all-time, yet, but I absolutely do have peak/prime LeBron ahead of peak/prime Kobe.

[branslowski]

Say what again

Wats really the point of arguing stupidity wen u know someone has a dumb bias?

[KG215]

Wats really the point of arguing stupidity wen u know someone has a dumb bias?
It's neither dumb or a bias. I just don't think Kobe, from 2006-2010, was as good as LeBron from 2009-2013. There's definitely nothing "dumb" about that.

[b1imtf]

Wats really the point of arguing stupidity wen u know someone has a dumb bias?
I was referring to your avatar :roll:

[branslowski]

Apparently you think that's some off the wall, outlandish thought...but it's not. I personally don't have LeBron ahead of Kobe all-time, yet, but I absolutely do have peak/prime LeBron ahead of peak/prime Kobe.

Look, It's not super off the wall...LeBron is the truth, I even made a thread back in 09' wen I said he may be the GOAT one day, but if ur living in a "What have u done for me lately" world, then I feel you, but if you watched prime Kobe, you would know, game by game, he was a more feared player than LeBron ever was....Look objectively at Bron vs the Spurs in the Finals.....You really think Spurs would of let Kobe shoot wide open jumpers and place washed up Boris Diaw on Kobe??? Really think about that bro...N I didn't even attack u for ur "Durant is a top 5 All-time perimeter player" comment u made the other day, just solely because I have no agenda towards other players.

I mean come on bro...Really...:lol

[K Xerxes]

:lol ok....

The fact that so many non-LeBron stans agree that prime/peak LeBron is better means the ridiculous laughing off responses aren't meaningful. You can stick to the (ironic) bias crap until judgement day, but the writing is on the wall. LeBron still has a few years in his prime to put the final nails in the coffin.

Nothing wrong with you believing Kobe is better, but it is certainly debatable. There's a difference between Silk spamming every thread with 'LeBron >>>>> Kobe' and a Durant stan like KG215 saying LeBron is better, or MJ stans, or whoever else coming from a more reasoned approach.

[KG215]

Look, It's not super off the wall...LeBron is the truth, I even made a thread back in 09' wen I said he may be the GOAT one day, but if ur living in a "What have u done for me lately" world,
I don't even know what this is supposed to mean. The fact is, LeBron has been playing at a level the last 3-4 years that's only been matched or surpassed by a few players, and in my opinion Kobe is not one of those players.


then I feel you, but if you watched prime Kobe, you would know, game by game, he was a more feared player than LeBron ever was....
And this very debatable, but getting into would be arguing semantics.


Look objectively at Bron vs the Spurs in the Finals.....You really think Spurs would of let Kobe shoot wide open jumpers and place washed up Boris Diaw on Kobe??? Really think about that bro...
No, they wouldn't, but it was a "pick your poison" with LeBron. Either way, I've repeatedly said that LeBron was underwhelming in the Finals by "all-time great" standards. But if you want to start nitpicking Finals performances, there's a few I could use against Kobe.

But I wouldn't, because it's ignorant to use one series to come to the conclusion Player A was better or more feared than Player B.


N I didn't even attack u for ur "Durant is a top 5 All-time perimeter player" comment u made the other day, just solely because I have no agenda towards other players.
There's be nothing to attack since I never said Durant was a top 5 all-time perimeter player. I said he was arguably a top 5 perimeter scorer all-time.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Oscar's ranking ...

Can't take list seriously.

[branslowski]

The fact that so many non-LeBron stans agree that prime/peak LeBron is better means the ridiculous laughing off responses aren't meaningful. You can stick to the (ironic) bias crap until judgement day, but the writing is on the wall. LeBron still has a few years in his prime to put the final nails in the coffin.

Nothing wrong with you believing Kobe is better, but it is certainly debatable. There's a difference between Silk spamming every thread with 'LeBron >>>>> Kobe' and a Durant stan like KG215 saying LeBron is better, or MJ stans, or whoever else coming from a more reasoned approach.

:lol No...Just stop it.

Also that last statement you made has to be the dumbest of Alltime...So because a Durant stan and a Jordan stan (both who has for some reason been in tons of Kobe related threads trying to tell ppl Kobe isnt this good because blah blah) said LeBron>>>Kobe in prime I'm suppose to listen?:oldlol:

So I guess because a Melo fan on this forum and a Derrick Rose stan on this forum said LeBron is overrated, that all LeBron stans should agree with it because It's fact right?...

[AintNoSunshine]

This is what I look at

Overall impact individually, ability to mesh with a team, Willingness to work with a coach. Amount of All star games, Defensive teams, MVP's. Basketball IQ, how much they distort an offense or defense etc etc. Just basic stuff. I pretty much dismiss the amount of rings or final losses though.

That has more to do with the level of play of the entire team, a competent coach, avoiding key injuries, not being out matched (Example the depth of the 60s celtics) etc... I don't need to preach what you know

Plus I do have some position bias(C, PF, PG > SG, SF) which is why I'd rank guys like Kareem and Wilt above Jordan. But to be clear, I don't think people who rate Jordan higher are wrong. I just think the center position is more important

I need to go but I'll explain more later


and then I look at your avatar :roll: :roll: :roll:

[DMAVS41]

Dmavs did shock me with placing Kobe at 10....He has a clear bias against Kobe so U was expecting him to place Kobe at 25 or somethin...Even though the facts have Kobe at 7-9.....Shocking none the less...And Lebron currently is better than Kobe due to age.

A few things;

1. Lebron has simply been a better and more dominant than Kobe. It's not age. Almost every objective measure of basketball dominance proves this. Kobe has never been as good as Lebron was in the 12 playoffs.

Playoff averages;

28/9/7 57% TS 27.3 PER
26/5/5 54% TS 22.4 PER

The 2nd guy above better have something crazy good over the top guy in order for him to be considered a better playoff performer. But Kobe doesn't have that. Lebron has been better in the clutch in the playoffs, better in game winning situations, better in elimination games, and much better in game 7's. And...Lebron has a greater defensive impact as well.

What Kobe has over Lebron is longevity...nothing more at this point. Even on accolades it's pretty even. 4 mvp's, 2 titles, 2 finals mvp's vs 1 mvp, 5 titles, 2 finals mvp's is just about even. I don't think that stuff matters all that much without context...etc..., but if you look objectively at the two players...the only thing holding Lebron back is longevity at this point.

Also, in response to you comments about Lebron against the Spurs. Of course the Spurs wouldn't dare Kobe to shoot like that...HE'S A BETTER SHOOTER/SCORER THAN LEBRON. I don't understand why Kobe stans can't figure this out. Shooting/scoring is not the only thing that matters to begin with, but it's not like Kobe just torches everyone. He's a playoff career 54% TS player that can shoot you out of games as well. But that is besides the point...it seems everyone wants to judge Kobe on what he could/can do...and not what he does. What good is it if Kobe can score better or shoot better....if he's going to bail out a defense 3 to 5 times a game more than Lebron ever does by settling and chucking? That is the point...what does Kobe do with all that attention defenses pay to him deep on the perimeter? He still manages to chuck up 22 or more shots in his prime in the playoffs. That is the best kept secret by other teams...you can double and triple Kobe and he still won't make you pay by passing...because all he does is look at the basket...he even said so himself.

So that spurt scoring tpols talks about and your range shooting you talk about...what does it really mean if said player scores less points and is less efficient...and refuses to pass frequently enough to really take advantage of the way teams play him.

2. What facts do you speak of? Kobe is 7-9....I'm assuming that means you have;

MJ, Russell, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Bird ahead of him...and that leaves Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Lebron, and Kobe fighting for the 3 spots from 7 to 9.

Lets take a look at playoff numbers;

Lebron - 28/9/7 57% TS 27.3 PER...37.4 Peak PER
Duncan - 22/12/3 55% TS 24.9 PER....31.8 Peak PER
Hakeem - 26/11/3 57% TS 25.7 PER....39.0 Peak PER
Shaq - 24/12/3 57% TS 26.1 PER....31.0 Peak PER

So how again is Kobe factually in the top 9? He's not...and all of the guys above impact the game more than the stats in a bigger way than Kobe ever did.

Kobe is factually top 11.

And I'm still waiting to hear from tpols when Kobe was better than Duncan in 03;

25/15/5...1 steal...3 blocks...58% TS 28.4 PER

[tpols]

And I'm still waiting to hear from tpols when Kobe was better than Duncan in 03;

25/15/5...1 steal...3 blocks...58% TS 28.4 PER

Kobe has regular seasons of

35/5/5, 56TS.. leading into playoffs 28/6/5, 59TS
32/6/5, 58TS.. leading into playoffs 33/5/5, 56TS

Has Duncan EVER displayed offensive dominance on par with 06-07 Kobe Bryant? Fvck no.. Do you want to run through 30, 40, 50, 60 point games? How about games over 5, 6, 7, 8, 10 assists? Playoff points? Top playoff point/assists in their primes?


In his true prime from 06-09, Kobe shot in the playoffs 51 eFG, and 57TS.
02-05 Duncan shot 50eFG, 55TS.

Kobe, in his offensive prime was both more efficient than Duncan, and has like 6 or 7 seasons higher PPG and Assist totals than Duncans highest in either category. More efficient on way more volume.

And this is on top of being a better crunchtime performer than Duncan. As an offensive player, Kobe is far more dominant than Duncan. And elite individual offense on a Kobe Bryant level is the hardest thing to replace in basketball besides a big mans ability to be both an elite rebounder and defend the rim. Which is why I feel Duncans defense and rebounding help close the gap between the gap in their offensive capabilities. Kobe was still an elite defender for a good chunk of years.. top 3 perimeter defender in the entire league for quite a while. But still that evens it out a bit more.

Tie goes to Kobe though.. for more accolades, probably better longevity(especially if breaks all time scoring record or moves into 2nd), most playoff points, gotta be up there for playoff assists, displayed great ability to have superstar impact on two totally different teams that led to multiple championships(as did duncan though on this one).

And probably the biggest tie breaker of them all comes from the fact that we saw them battle in their primes..

In 01, when Kobe was just entering his prime he drops

45/10
28/7/6
36/9/8
24/2/11

on prime tim duncan and the spurs, Im not going to sit back and act like Kobe isnt straight winning games for his team and outplaying Tim Duncan right now. So unlike what you say DMAVs there were multiple years where Kobe outplayed Duncan.. regular season, playoffs, head to head.. Kobe has proven multiple times he can impact games on Tim Duncans level or above it, just in a different way.

[kshutts1]

Dmavs did shock me with placing Kobe at 10....He has a clear bias against Kobe so U was expecting him to place Kobe at 25 or somethin...Even though the facts have Kobe at 7-9.....Shocking none the less...And Lebron currently is better than Kobe due to age.

Ranking Kobe behind someone does not qualify as a "bias". Kobe's my favorite active player, but I'm hard pressed to say that he has ever been better than Lebron is now.
I may not agree with DMavs, and I certainly don't have to, but he's also not a troll that obviously hates on a player. Just calls it like he sees it. If only we had more posters that could dislike a player but still be objective.

[KG215]

Ranking Kobe behind someone does not qualify as a "bias". Kobe's my favorite active player, but I'm hard pressed to say that he has ever been better than Lebron is now.
I may not agree with DMavs, and I certainly don't have to, but he's also not a troll that obviously hates on a player. Just calls it like he sees it. If only we had more posters that could dislike a player but still be objective.
Yet when I say it, it's a joke, and only because I'm biased.

I'm willing to be current/prime LeBron is better than prime/peak Kobe is a popular belief among the majority of objective NBA fans.

[kshutts1]

And since this has turned in to the thread in which everyone posts their top 20..

1-7:
Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Magic
Bird
Shaq

8-14:
Duncan
Hakeem
Kobe
Lebron
Oscar
West
KG

14-wherever I stop (never done tiers this far, so bear with me [edit: holy cow this tier is a mess]):
Barkley
Malone
Malone
Dr. J
Wade
Iverson
DRob
Thomas
Clyde

Note -- Dirk can't be in the same tier as Barkley, as I consider Barkley the clearly more dominant/better player. So Dirk, not forgotten, is in the next tier.


Impossible (for me) to rank:
Pettit
Cousy
Baylor
Worthy
Unseld
Thurmond
... and others with similar career characteristics... typically older generations, and great players, albeit rarely "the greatest" of their generation. Therefore, information is less likely to come to me, and I'm not about to do hours of research for a ranking on a forum.


I may have forgotten some people. I am not the most thorough person.

[kshutts1]

Yet when I say it, it's a joke, and only because I'm biased.

I'm willing to be current/prime LeBron is better than prime/peak Kobe is a popular belief among the majority of objective NBA fans.
Not sure if you bolded my post because you feel if I once called it "a joke" or if my post was just there and easy to use.

Regardless, I agree that current Lebron is better than Kobe has ever been. But I don't agree that, if both careers ended today, that either player has a strong case to be ranked inarguably ahead of the other.

[Skip Bayless]

I'm willing to be current/prime LeBron is better than prime/peak Kobe is a popular belief among the majority of objective NBA fans.

I've entertained many basketball discussions with many old school objective basketball historians and fans, and from what I've seen and from what I've heard, Kobe's peak and level of play from 05'-09' was better than LeBron at his best. You feared Kobe during that time if you were an opponent, just as many coaches and players feared Jordan. LeBron isn't feared to that point, not saying he isn't feared, but not to the level of the Jordan's, the Wilts, and the Kobe's. Those guys could just beat your entire team by themselves, those guys also feared nothing, those guys were never afraid to take over and the opposition knew that.

I've watched Jordan install fear into the top perimeter defenders he played against, guys like Ehloe, Dumars, Payton, (I can go on) were top defenders who Jordan made fear them. I've seen Bryant install fear and dominate the likes of Bruce Bowen, Shane Battier, and Ron Artest. Those guys have a cold blooded monster resolving inside of them, and I just still haven't seen LeBron install that same fear. Those intangibles speaks even louder than a final boxscore read of stat paded numbers, it does.

Not a knock on LeBron, but those guys peaks were better, and you could visibly see it if you understood the game of basketball.

To the thread starter, not the greatest top 20 list made there, but I respect it, and I've seen worst list made.

[kshutts1]

I've entertained many basketball discussions with many old school objective basketball historians and fans, and from what I've seen and from what I've heard, Kobe's peak and level of play from 05'-09' was better than LeBron at his best. You feared Kobe during that time if you were an opponent, just as many coaches and players feared Jordan. LeBron isn't feared to that point, not saying he isn't feared, but not to the level of the Jordan's, the Wilts, and the Kobe's. Those guys could just beat your entire team by themselves, those guys also feared nothing, those guys were never afraid to take over and the opposition knew that.

I've watched Jordan install fear into the top perimeter defenders he played against, guys like Ehloe, Dumars, Payton, (I can go on) were top defenders who Jordan made fear them. I've seen Bryant install fear and dominate the likes of Bruce Bowen, Shane Battier, and Ron Artest. Those guys have a cold blooded monster resolving inside of them, and I just still haven't seen LeBron install that same fear. Those intangibles speaks even louder than a final boxscore read of stat paded numbers, it does.

Not a knock on LeBron, but those guys peaks were better, and you could visibly see it if you understood the game of basketball.

To the thread starter, not the greatest top 20 list made there, but I respect it, and I've seen worst list made.

Why? I don't care if someone "fears" Lebron or not. Fact is, his teams win, and have won, more often than not. And as long as he's healthy, his team is a championship contender.

[KG215]

When someone says "Player A isn't/wasn't as feared as Player B" it makes almost no sense to me. How do we have anyway of knowing that unless we were actually in various locker rooms interviewing and talking to various coaches and players?

In my opinion LeBron just dominates the game, on both ends of the floor, at a higher level than Kobe ever did. The only thing Kobe might have an advantage in is scoring, and even that's debatable as LeBron has proven over his career that he can score at a similar volume on better efficiency. Now, I think Kobe was a more potent scorer in his prime, but LeBron is the better all-around offensive player and better defender; and both have had similar peaks in terms of winning, but I think LeBron is going to surpass that by winning at least one more title, MVP, and Finals MVP. I think when it's all said and done, we're going to be looking at a 7-10 year stretch where LeBron accumulated 3-5 rings, 3-5 Finals MVP's, and 5+ MVP's; on top of being arguably the best perimeter defender in the league (better than Kobe defensively, although 3-peak Kobe was a very good defender), and putting up 27-8-7 type stat-lines.


But that's just prime vs. prime and/or peak vs. peak. When it comes to all-time rankings, although I'm starting to wean myself off of a defined top 10/15/20/25, and go more towards a tier system, I still have Kobe ahead of LeBron.

[DMAVS41]

Kobe has regular seasons of

35/5/5, 56TS.. leading into playoffs 28/6/5, 59TS
32/6/5, 58TS.. leading into playoffs 33/5/5, 56TS

Has Duncan EVER displayed offensive dominance on par with 06-07 Kobe Bryant? Fvck no.. Do you want to run through 30, 40, 50, 60 point games? How about games over 5, 6, 7, 8, 10 assists? Playoff points? Top playoff point/assists in their primes?


In his true prime from 06-09, Kobe shot in the playoffs 51 eFG, and 57TS.
02-05 Duncan shot 50eFG, 55TS.

Kobe, in his offensive prime was both more efficient than Duncan, and has like 6 or 7 seasons higher PPG and Assist totals than Duncans highest in either category. More efficient on way more volume.

And this is on top of being a better crunchtime performer than Duncan. As an offensive player, Kobe is far more dominant than Duncan. And elite individual offense on a Kobe Bryant level is the hardest thing to replace in basketball besides a big mans ability to be both an elite rebounder and defend the rim. Which is why I feel Duncans defense and rebounding help close the gap between the gap in their offensive capabilities. Kobe was still an elite defender for a good chunk of years.. top 3 perimeter defender in the entire league for quite a while. But still that evens it out a bit more.

Tie goes to Kobe though.. for more accolades, probably better longevity(especially if breaks all time scoring record or moves into 2nd), most playoff points, gotta be up there for playoff assists, displayed great ability to have superstar impact on two totally different teams that led to multiple championships(as did duncan though on this one).

And probably the biggest tie breaker of them all comes from the fact that we saw them battle in their primes..

In 01, when Kobe was just entering his prime he drops

45/10
28/7/6
36/9/8
24/2/11

on prime tim duncan and the spurs, Im not going to sit back and act like Kobe isnt straight winning games for his team and outplaying Tim Duncan right now. So unlike what you say DMAVs there were multiple years where Kobe outplayed Duncan.. regular season, playoffs, head to head.. Kobe has proven multiple times he can impact games on Tim Duncans level or above it, just in a different way.

I didn't say...show me when Kobe has been more dominant in terms of scoring. I said...show me a year in the playoffs in which Kobe was as good overall or as dominant overall as 03 Duncan. And of course you can't do that by any objective measure.

Also, look at what Kobe did in the 06 playoffs. Not sure you want to use that for an argument. Blows a 3-1 series lead...can't dominate offensively like you claim he can...then quits in a game 7. See....where is that spurt scoring you speak of? One game over 30 against the pathetic Suns defense?

Again...objectively based on stats alone...Duncan has 5 years in the playoffs better than Kobe's best year.

And to the clutch stuff. Kobe is an awful 7 of 29 on playoff game winners. He has struggled in crunch time to make the right basketball play...especially in the playoffs.

The last stats I saw had Duncan's Spurs winning the 2nd most close games in the NBA (both regular season/playoffs) from 04 to 11. Only the Dirk led Mavs won more. The Spurs were also top 3 in offensive efficiency.

If your argument is solely...Kobe is a better and more dominant scorer. Yep...totally agree. So why don't you rank Kobe over Bill Russell? You keep going off what Kobe can/could do...rather than what he's actually done.

And what Kobe has done...is average 26/5/5 on 54% TS for his career in the playoffs. Very good...perhaps even great numbers over 220 playoff games. But nothing truly crazy like you imply.

You are too biased by Lakers vs Spurs series. Two players that don't even play the same position...with one player have peak/prime Shaq at his side.

Duncan has been the best player on his team from day 1. They've now won over 50 games 14 straight seasons...a NBA record. The Duncan led Spurs have won over 50 in 15 of his 16 seasons...the one time they didn't...they went 37-13 in the lockout season. Duncan has a better overall win percentage. He's won a title without an all-nba teammate each time he won the title. He was the best player on all 4 of his title teams.

And again...Kobe at his best...has never dominated like Duncan did at his best.

So...we have Duncan being statistically better in the playoffs for his career. We have Duncan winning a higher percentage of games (with less help mind you). We have Duncan being able to dominate a game defensively. Duncan is a better teammate. Duncan is less selfish and a better leader.

Imagine putting Duncan with prime/peak Magic Johnson (probably not even the equivalent of Shaq)...and then removing Shaq from the league so Duncan didn't have to go against the other best player of his prime...instead he gets to play with him...LOL. Seriously...imagine the results from 98 through 05...and then giving him top 3 supporting casts another 4 or 5 years after that.

They'd be just too good. Why? Because Duncan was better than Kobe was.

[tpols]

If your argument is solely...Kobe is a better and more dominant scorer. Yep...totally agree. So why don't you rank Kobe over Bill Russell? You keep going off what Kobe can/could do...rather than what he's actually done.

You still dont get it... he was a better playmaker than Duncan too. Look at the assist numbers. Kobe, by the nature of his position is a better playmaker, scorer, facilitator.. every macro aspect of OFFENSE Kobe is better and more dominant than Duncan in.

Its not just scorer.:oldlol: Its the whole offensive package. Higher volume + higher efficiency in primes + better playmaking.. the whole offensive package is more dominant and harder for defenses to adjust to.

Kobe from 06-09 was more efficient than Duncan from 02-05 when he won his two MVPs. A SG considered a chucker is MORE efficient than the big fundamental always make the right decision tim duncan. And thats because despite his shortcomings in shot selection, Kobe was a more dominant/talented/skilled offensive machine than Duncan ever was.


And Russell was a greater defender, rebounder, leader, passer and overall impact player than Duncan was.. and he pretty handily dominated a bunch of HOF competitors to the tune of 11 straight rings.. ANYONE that is the leader of a decade long championship team is going to get GOAT talk. Pretty simple.




And to the clutch stuff. Kobe is an awful 7 of 29 on playoff game winners. He has struggled in crunch time to make the right basketball play...especially in the playoffs.
Notice I didnt say clutch for that reason.:oldlol: I said crunchtime.. as in end of the game. Where Kobe is a top performer every year and was a huge crunchtime performer in the early 2000s before we got the stats on it. He was easily better in this facet of the game. A facet only a dominant offensive player can excel in which is why you see guys like Lebron and Kobe every year on the list but duncan nowhere to be found.



You are too biased by Lakers vs Spurs series. Two players that don't even play the same position...with one player have peak/prime Shaq at his side.
The point is that Kobe can be the best player on the floor any given night against Tim Duncan.

He buried the Spurs in 08 as well after Shaq was long gone.. so you cant really use that as an excuse. It can happen at anytime.



Duncan has been the best player on his team from day 1.
And he wouldve been the second best if he started his career on the Lakers.:confusedshrug:



And again...Kobe at his best...has never dominated like Duncan did at his best.
Flawed way of judging CAREERS.

By that token Hakeem would be a top 5 GOAT.. since he has a playoff run widely considered to be the best all time and another thats considered top 5ish.

But thats not the only criteria for judging players. Its one of a few in the 'how good was said player' subcategory.. careers have many more things attached to them.




We have Duncan winning a higher percentage of games (with less help mind you). We have Duncan being able to dominate a game defensively. Duncan is a better teammate. Duncan is less selfish and a better leader.
And hes a worse offensive player/threat by a long shot, and not comparable in crunchtime.. Duncan fills holes where they need to be plugged but he doesnt dominate, at his peak, in any given game, at the level Kobe Bryant has.


And the higher winning percentage argument is always funny to me. Duncan averaged 12/9 and his team won OVER 60 goddamn games.

Why should Duncan get credit for his TEAM's winning percentage when people dont give Kobe credit for rings he was BETTER than Duncan for? Kobe averages 29/7/6, doesnt count.. Shaq.

Duncan averages 12/9.. look at the spurs winning percentage! That Tim Duncan:cheers:

Its hypocrisy at its highest level.

[branslowski]

You still dont get it... he was a better playmaker than Duncan too. Look at the assist numbers. Kobe, by the nature of his position is a better playmaker, scorer, facilitator.. every macro aspect of OFFENSE Kobe is better and more dominant than Duncan in.

Its not just scorer.:oldlol: Its the whole offensive package. Higher volume + higher efficiency in primes + better playmaking.. the whole offensive package is more dominant and harder for defenses to adjust to.

Kobe from 06-09 was more efficient than Duncan from 02-05 when he won his two MVPs. A SG considered a chucker is MORE efficient than the big fundamental always make the right decision tim duncan. And thats because despite his shortcomings in shot selection, Kobe was a more dominant/talented/skilled offensive machine than Duncan ever was.


And Russell was a greater defender, rebounder, leader, passer and overall impact player than Duncan was.. and he pretty handily dominated a bunch of HOF competitors to the tune of 11 straight rings.. ANYONE that is the leader of a decade long championship team is going to get GOAT talk. Pretty simple.




Notice I didnt say clutch for that reason.:oldlol: I said crunchtime.. as in end of the game. Where Kobe is a top performer every year and was a huge crunchtime performer in the early 2000s before we got the stats on it. He was easily better in this facet of the game. A facet only a dominant offensive player can excel in which is why you see guys like Lebron and Kobe every year on the list but duncan nowhere to be found.



The point is that Kobe can be the best player on the floor any given night against Tim Duncan.

He buried the Spurs in 08 as well after Shaq was long gone.. so you cant really use that as an excuse. It can happen at anytime.



And he wouldve been the second best if he started his career on the Lakers.:confusedshrug:



Flawed way of judging CAREERS.

By that token Hakeem would be a top 5 GOAT.. since he has a playoff run widely considered to be the best all time and another thats considered top 5ish.

But thats not the only criteria for judging players. Its one of a few in the 'how good was said player' subcategory.. careers have many more things attached to them.




And hes a worse offensive player/threat by a long shot, and not comparable in crunchtime.. Duncan fills holes where they need to be plugged but he doesnt dominate, at his peak, in any given game, at the level Kobe Bryant has.


And the higher winning percentage argument is always funny to me. Duncan averaged 12/9 and his team won OVER 60 goddamn games.

Why should Duncan get credit for his TEAM's winning percentage when people dont give Kobe credit for rings he was BETTER than Duncan for? Kobe averages 29/7/6, doesnt count.. Shaq.

Duncan averages 12/9.. look at the spurs winning percentage! That Tim Duncan:cheers:

Its hypocrisy at its highest level.

ETHERED:eek:

[rmt]

You still dont get it... he was a better playmaker than Duncan too. Look at the assist numbers. Kobe, by the nature of his position is a better playmaker, scorer, facilitator.. every macro aspect of OFFENSE Kobe is better and more dominant than Duncan in.

Its not just scorer.:oldlol: Its the whole offensive package. Higher volume + higher efficiency in primes + better playmaking.. the whole offensive package is more dominant and harder for defenses to adjust to.

Kobe from 06-09 was more efficient than Duncan from 02-05 when he won his two MVPs. A SG considered a chucker is MORE efficient than the big fundamental always make the right decision tim duncan. And thats because despite his shortcomings in shot selection, Kobe was a more dominant/talented/skilled offensive machine than Duncan ever was.


And Russell was a greater defender, rebounder, leader, passer and overall impact player than Duncan was.. and he pretty handily dominated a bunch of HOF competitors to the tune of 11 straight rings.. ANYONE that is the leader of a decade long championship team is going to get GOAT talk. Pretty simple.

Notice I didnt say clutch for that reason.:oldlol: I said crunchtime.. as in end of the game. Where Kobe is a top performer every year and was a huge crunchtime performer in the early 2000s before we got the stats on it. He was easily better in this facet of the game. A facet only a dominant offensive player can excel in which is why you see guys like Lebron and Kobe every year on the list but duncan nowhere to be found.

The point is that Kobe can be the best player on the floor any given night against Tim Duncan.

He buried the Spurs in 08 as well after Shaq was long gone.. so you cant really use that as an excuse. It can happen at anytime.

And he wouldve been the second best if he started his career on the Lakers.:confusedshrug:

Flawed way of judging CAREERS.

By that token Hakeem would be a top 5 GOAT.. since he has a playoff run widely considered to be the best all time and another thats considered top 5ish.

But thats not the only criteria for judging players. Its one of a few in the 'how good was said player' subcategory.. careers have many more things attached to them.

And hes a worse offensive player/threat by a long shot, and not comparable in crunchtime.. Duncan fills holes where they need to be plugged but he doesnt dominate, at his peak, in any given game, at the level Kobe Bryant has.


You pick and choose your criteria depending on the players. In a comparison between Duncan and Russell, Russell is not that much better than Duncan as a "defender, rebounder, leader, passer and overall impact" as the difference in their offense. But because you CANNOT argue against 11 RINGS when 5 rings is the reason so many of Kobe's fans revere him, Russell is an untouchable. Wonder what you'd have said if Manu hit one more free throw and Duncan was a 5 ring, 4 FMVP winner putting up 30/17 and 24/12 in games 6 and 7. Different story, isn't it - and oh so close.

What I think you're missing is that Duncan (very much like Russell) did "fills holes where they need to be plugged". Where I disagree with your "but he doesnt dominate, at his peak, in any given game, at the level Kobe Bryant has" is that in 03 he did - his team mates were young, inexperienced and he put on a dominant run leading them in points, rebounds, assists and blocks throughout the entire playoffs. Sounds so simple - just does what the team needs him to do. Listen to some of Russell's interviews - fascinating - his philosophy and quips are diametrically opposite to Kobe's. BTW, guess who Russell's favorite active player is.

Kobe's sole emphasis on offense and the resulting glory to the casual fan (because that's what they look at most) has made him so single-minded to the detriment of winning. His "this is still my team" and the resulting burst of offense alienated Dwight. Look at the Lakers team last year - who wants to play with Kobe?

Casual fans look mainly at scoring - serious fans should see beyond the scoring and notice the leadership, camaraderie, allowing young players to grow and develop, taking a back seat so others can shine but stepping in when they struggle.

I can't believe that a 17 year veteran, a top 10 player would say, "Look you guys as my teammates, yell at me. Tell me if your open" Kobe told me this. "I'm programmed, I see nothing but that basket. It could be open, there could be 3 guys guarding it, but I see nothing but that basket. Yell at me. Say 'hey look I was open'. It doesn't affect me all. I have no problems when you tell me 'hey Kobe I was open', or 'Kobe that's not the play we drew up'."

What this is is sheer selfishness. If you're so dominant on offense, isn't the point to open up your team mates, isn't that what he should be keenly aware of - looking for open team mates, but no, he's so hell-bent on KAJ's scoring record that all that goes out the window.

And it does take a TEAM to win. Your last bit about Duncan and the __/__ and they still win is YEARS AND YEARS of developing that team/trust/camaraderie so that they can win even when he has 1 sub-par year among 16. Yes, they won in the regular season but got booted in the first round in the playoffs. It's no coincidence that the Spurs reach the Finals in a resurgent year for Duncan. People can spout all they want about this being Parker's team, but the difference in their offense is not much while the difference in defense between TP and TD is significant.

[DMAVS41]

ETHERED:eek:

Are you joking?

It's all about what Kobe can/could do...not what he's done. You two morons are hell bent on judging Kobe on hypotheticals and not his actual career.

Here is what Kobe's career actually is in the 220 most important games;

26/5/5 54% TS 22.4 PER

Here is what Duncan's career actually is in the 211 most important games;

22/12/3 55% TS 24.9 PER

And again, that doesn't even begin to touch on Duncan's number 1 attribute...his ability to anchor an elite defense.

You can talk about spurt scoring...etc, but it doesn't make up for the consistency and dominance at both ends from Duncan.

Also, about the crunch time stuff. I know he said "crunch time"...which is why I responded with the Spurs being an elite crunch time team and having a better record in close games than any teams other than the Mavs and Hornets from 06 through 11. Duncan doesn't factor into that? LOL...he's their best player.

And a huge part of that was Duncan's impact on both ends, but more specifically on defense. The Spurs boasted the best defensive efficiency rating in clutch situations in 06 through 11...and probably before that as well. Who else you gonna credit for that? It's Duncan.

Do you really need to be reminded of this?
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

What tpols and you don't get...is that Duncan's impact goes way beyond his stats...that is why you can't figure out how the Spurs remain really good even when Duncan isn't putting up great numbers. He impacts the game in so many ways and doesn't need to dominate the ball or stats to be a huge positive. He can fill the gaps of the team so to speak.

It's really not hard.

Duncan has been more consistent. He's been more dominant. He's done better given his circumstances...hell, even without factoring in circumstances he's done better given 14 straight 50 win seasons...higher win percentage...etc.

Basically your argument is this;

Kobe was better offensivley...therefore Kobe is better overall. I ask about a guy like Russell...

And it's...11 rings...blah blah blah

But you contradict yourself. The gap between Russell and Duncan on offense is bigger than the gap between Duncan and Kobe. So all of your arguments don't hold water if you take Russell over Duncan and Kobe. Duncan is a top 10 defender of all time. He's also a really damn good 22 ppg playoff scorer over 211 playoff games 16 seasons. He's 34th all time in playoff ppg average. It's not like he's some inept offensive player.

[KG215]

And hes a worse offensive player/threat by a long shot, and not comparable in crunchtime.
And Kobe is a worse defensve player by a long shot. There's just not significant enough/eye-popping data that give fans something easy to read and comprehend to understand how great Duncan is defensively. He's anchored some of the best defenses in NBA history in terms of DRtg relative to league average. That has to count for quite a bit, doesn't it?

Not to mention I don't think the gap between Kobe and Duncan offensively is nearly as big as you believe or make it out to be. I'll concede Kobe is the better offensive player, but I don't think the gap is that big; at least not as big as the gap between their defense.


Duncan fills holes where they need to be plugged but he doesnt dominate, at his peak, in any given game, at the level Kobe Bryant has.
And this is just pure ignorance.

[DMAVS41]

You pick and choose your criteria depending on the players. In a comparison between Duncan and Russell, Russell is not that much better than Duncan as a "defender, rebounder, leader, passer and overall impact" as the difference in their offense. But because you CANNOT argue against 11 RINGS when 5 rings is the reason so many of Kobe's fans revere him, Russell is an untouchable. Wonder what you'd have said if Manu hit one more free throw and Duncan was a 5 ring, 4 FMVP winner putting up 30/17 and 24/12 in games 6 and 7. Different story, isn't it - and oh so close.

What I think you're missing is that Duncan (very much like Russell) did "fills holes where they need to be plugged". Where I disagree with your "but he doesnt dominate, at his peak, in any given game, at the level Kobe Bryant has" is that in 03 he did - his team mates were young, inexperienced and he put on a dominant run leading them in points, rebounds, assists and blocks throughout the entire playoffs. Sounds so simple - just does what the team needs him to do. Listen to some of Russell's interviews - fascinating - his philosophy and quips are diametrically opposite to Kobe's. BTW, guess who Russell's favorite active player is.

Kobe's sole emphasis on offense and the resulting glory to the casual fan (because that's what they look at most) has made him so single-minded to the detriment of winning. His "this is still my team" and the resulting burst of offense alienated Dwight. Look at the Lakers team last year - who wants to play with Kobe?

Casual fans look mainly at scoring - serious fans should see beyond the scoring and notice the leadership, camaraderie, allowing young players to grow and develop, taking a back seat so others can shine but stepping in when they struggle.

I can't believe that a 17 year veteran, a top 10 player would say, "Look you guys as my teammates, yell at me. Tell me if your open" Kobe told me this. "I'm programmed, I see nothing but that basket. It could be open, there could be 3 guys guarding it, but I see nothing but that basket. Yell at me. Say 'hey look I was open'. It doesn't affect me all. I have no problems when you tell me 'hey Kobe I was open', or 'Kobe that's not the play we drew up'."

What this is is sheer selfishness. If you're so dominant on offense, isn't the point to open up your team mates, isn't that what he should be keenly aware of - looking for open team mates, but no, he's so hell-bent on KAJ's scoring record that all that goes out the window.

And it does take a TEAM to win. Your last bit about Duncan and the __/__ and they still win is YEARS AND YEARS of developing that team/trust/camaraderie so that they can win even when he has 1 sub-par year among 16. Yes, they won in the regular season but got booted in the first round in the playoffs. It's no coincidence that the Spurs reach the Finals in a resurgent year for Duncan. People can spout all they want about this being Parker's team, but the difference in their offense is not much while the difference in defense between TP and TD is significant.

Didn't see this until I posted.

Pretty much this.

I will never understand how someone arguing from the point of view that tpols is...will continue to use 2011 as evidence for anything. The Spurs won regular season games and then lost in 6 in the first round of the playoffs. That is evidence for Duncan being far more important when the going gets tough than he gets credit for.

Like you said, do people think it's just random that the Spurs found their way to finals and within seconds of another title the same year Duncan got back to playing the best ball he has since 08 probably...maybe even 07?

I don't put much stock in regular season anyway, but somehow it's now a negative that Duncan led teams have won over 50 (or at least on pace to) every single year of his career. It's now everyone else other than Duncan when you bring up his better win percentage overall?

It's absurd. Duncan has been the best player on his team from the jump. Kobe spent 8 years being the 2nd best guy on his team...and when he tried to be the best...Duncan's weak 03 team destroyed him in the playoffs.

Just for fun...lets take a look at how each player performed in a do or die game 7 in 06. The year tpols claims Kobe was at the peak of his powers;

Kobe - 24/4/1 66% TS...quit in 2nd half (dat unstoppable spurt scoring...rofl)

Duncan - 41/15/6 60% TS...Duncan scores 11 in highly contested 4th qtr. Duncan's team almost for sure wins if not for Manu making one of the dumbest plays in NBA history

And that is kind of the "so close" aspect you brought up earlier. Duncan is literally a horrible Manu foul in 06 and a Manu made ft in game 6 in 13 from being a 6 time champion and 5 time finals mvp.

Would that make Duncan better? Nope...he is who he is.

Oh...and on that ring counting criteria...why is Havlicek not over Kobe tpols? 8 rings...1 finals mvp. Seems like you'll be wanting to bring up stuff like PER and stats. Hmmmm

[DMAVS41]

And Kobe is a worse defensve player by a long shot. There's just not significant enough/eye-popping data that give fans something easy to read and comprehend to understand how great Duncan is defensively. He's anchored some of the best defenses in NBA history in terms of DRtg relative to league average. That has to count for quite a bit, doesn't it?

Not to mention I don't think the gap between Kobe and Duncan offensively is nearly as big as you believe or make it out to be. I'll concede Kobe is the better offensive player, but I don't think the gap is that big; at least not as big as the gap between their defense.


And this is just pure ignorance.


there is this;

http://asubstituteforwar.wordpress.com/2011/05/09/kobe-bryant-the-most-overrated-defender-imaginable/

but Kobe fans won't like real data so tpols will just ignore it.

and a bunch of other data as well that is ignored for no good reason.

when was the last time there was an article written or nba rumors going around about "Nobody wants to play with Duncan"

LOL...

[tpols]

And Kobe is a worse defensve player by a long shot. There's just not significant enough/eye-popping data that give fans something easy to read and comprehend to understand how great Duncan is defensively. He's anchored some of the best defenses in NBA history in terms of DRtg relative to league average. That has to count for quite a bit, doesn't it?

Not to mention I don't think the gap between Kobe and Duncan offensively is nearly as big as you believe or make it out to be. I'll concede Kobe is the better offensive player, but I don't think the gap is that big; at least not as big as the gap between their defense.


And this is just pure ignorance.
I gave duncan credit for that.

Read the top post quote on this page.

Kobe was more offensively brilliant productive and explosive than duncan in his prime. Again emphasis on prime because he took a while to develop as a player coming out of HS.. just like KG tmac jermaine oneal etc took time to develop.

And ob the other side duncan was far more impactful defending the rim and securing loose balls.


They are opposite styles but both have their advantages.

Its accolades..head to head performances..slight longevity where I give kobe the small nod in a goat ranking career list.

Its dmavs saying theres NO case at all and proclaiming his opinion as fact..not me. This is my opinion.. i will not make it out to be law like others.



And its funny KG..how you respond to me when dmavs has duncan over kareem abdul jabbar and wilt chamberlain. Two bigs who were great defensively and waaaaay better offensively.. shits a joke and a half

[tpols]

And no the difference in offense is not slight.. in their primes youre looking at a 5+ ppg difference on better overall efficiency. Signifigantly more assits and better playmaking.

If you look at 30 40 50 etc point games and above 5 6 7 10 etc assists kobe crushes.

Duncan will never match 33 ppg on 58TS for a whole season.. hes never shown the offensive firepower kobe has..

And he was a top 3 perimeter defender in his prime as well..were not talking steve nash defense lol. Most people on this site didnt watch basketball when kobe was good.


Kobe is one of the greatest offensive players of all time..duncan is not at all. Theyre on totally separate tiers offensively.. and obviously vice versa for defensively

[fpliii]

I gave duncan credit for that.

Read the top post quote on this page.

Kobe was more offensively brilliant productive and explosive than duncan in his prime. Again emphasis on prime because he took a while to develop as a player coming out of HS.. just like KG tmac jermaine oneal etc took time to develop.

And ob the other side duncan was far more impactful defending the rim and securing loose balls.


They are opposite styles but both have their advantages.

Its accolades..head to head performances..slight longevity where I give kobe the small nod in a goat ranking career list.

Its dmavs saying theres NO case at all and proclaiming his opinion as fact..not me. This is my opinion.. i will not make it out to be law like others.



And its funny KG..how you respond to me when dmavs has duncan over kareem abdul jabbar and wilt chamberlain. Two bigs who were great defensively and waaaaay better offensively.. shits a joke and a half

That's why these lists are all over the place, everybody has drastically different criteria. Some guys go with a straight resume/accolades and longevity/records, others just care about the absolute quality of a player and try to compare to guys in a vacuum, taking into account context and the like; most are somewhere in between.

[KG215]

I gave duncan credit for that.

Read the top post quote on this page.

Kobe was more offensively brilliant productive and explosive than duncan in his prime. Again emphasis on prime because he took a while to develop as a player coming out of HS.. just like KG tmac jermaine oneal etc took time to develop.

And ob the other side duncan was far more impactful defending the rim and securing loose balls.


They are opposite styles but both have their advantages.

Its accolades..head to head performances..slight longevity where I give kobe the small nod in a goat ranking career list.

Its dmavs saying theres NO case at all and proclaiming his opinion as fact..not me. This is my opinion.. i will not make it out to be law like others.



And its funny KG..how you respond to me when dmavs has duncan over kareem abdul jabbar and wilt chamberlain. Two bigs who were great defensively and waaaaay better offensively.. shits a joke and a half
The reason I responded to you is because I just saw that small tidbit of your post quoted by rmt. I admittedly (which was stupid of me) haven't read the entirety of your posts and DMAV's posts since you two started arguing.

I don't agree with Duncan over Kareem, and probably not Wilt, but I can sort of see a case for him being ahead of Wilt if you put a lot of stock in championships.

On another note, the more and more I see these silly arguments, over little things, on whether a player should be #7 or #9 on some made-up list, the more and more I get away from even caring about defined top 10's/20's/50's. I'm leaning more towards a tiered system and, in that case, I'd probably have Duncan and Kobe in the 2nd tier and Kareem and Wilt in the 1st tier.

When it comes to trying to define who's #1, #2, #3, etc., everyone is going to have their own set of criteria and biases will go into their rankings, which inevitably leads to fans and "haters" of some player (on this site it's LeBron and Kobe 99.9% of the time) getting into silly, needless arguments. And in this case, comparing a big and a guard from the same era, it almost feels pointless to compare them since they never guarded each other or anything when they played. I personally would take Duncan over Kobe, but part of that reason is because I have a big man bias, and Duncan inherently impacts the game more than Kobe ever did in my opinion. Not by a big margin or anything, but he was still a 24-13-4-3 player in his prime while anchoring defenses at a level matched or surpassed by only a few other big men in NBA history.

[DMAVS41]

I gave duncan credit for that.

Read the top post quote on this page.

Kobe was more offensively brilliant productive and explosive than duncan in his prime. Again emphasis on prime because he took a while to develop as a player coming out of HS.. just like KG tmac jermaine oneal etc took time to develop.

And ob the other side duncan was far more impactful defending the rim and securing loose balls.


They are opposite styles but both have their advantages.

Its accolades..head to head performances..slight longevity where I give kobe the small nod in a goat ranking career list.

Its dmavs saying theres NO case at all and proclaiming his opinion as fact..not me. This is my opinion.. i will not make it out to be law like others.



And its funny KG..how you respond to me when dmavs has duncan over kareem abdul jabbar and wilt chamberlain. Two bigs who were great defensively and waaaaay better offensively.. shits a joke and a half

You were the one claiming that with Kareem...not me.

I said I don't see how, under your criteria, Kobe should be above Duncan...and you illustrated that with your explanation and then ranking Russell so highly...etc.

Still don't see the consistency. You basically have a bias towards offensive guys...or at least you want to, but then you turn around and rank Kobe over Hakeem.

Yet Hakeem is definitely the better playoff scorer...demands more doubles and opens things up for teammates more.

Again...Hakeem averaged more ppg on better overall efficiency...only 1.5 less assists for a center.


So on what criteria are you ranking Kobe over Hakeem? Seems like you are just all over the place.

[tpols]

The reason I responded to you is because I just saw that small tidbit of your post quoted by rmt. I admittedly (which was stupid of me) haven't read the entirety of your posts and DMAV's posts since you two started arguing.

I don't agree with Duncan over Kareem, and probably not Wilt, but I can sort of see a case for him being ahead of Wilt if you put a lot of stock in championships.

On another note, the more and more I see these silly arguments, over little things, on whether a player should be #7 or #9 on some made-up list, the more and more I get away from even caring about defined top 10's/20's/50's. I'm leaning more towards a tiered system and, in that case, I'd probably have Duncan and Kobe in the 2nd tier and Kareem and Wilt in the 1st tier.

When it comes to trying to define who's #1, #2, #3, etc., everyone is going to have their own set of criteria and biases will go into their rankings, which inevitably leads to fans and "haters" of some player (on this site it's LeBron and Kobe 99.9% of the time) getting into silly, needless arguments. And in this case, comparing a big and a guard from the same era, it almost feels pointless to compare them since they never guarded each other or anything when they played. I personally would take Duncan over Kobe, but part of that reason is because I have a big man bias, and Duncan inherently impacts the game more than Kobe ever did in my opinion. Not by a big margin or anything, but he was still a 24-13-4-3 player in his prime while anchoring defenses at a level matched or surpassed by only a few other big men in NBA history.
and I agree with this reasoning. An OPINION.. Duncan nd kobe are in the same range iys what you value that determines the order.

As long as its not crazy and you provide a reasoning..all good in my book. Its idiots like dmavs who present their opinion as fact that I cant stand.

[DMAVS41]

Duncan has no case over Kareem. And Dirk has very weak case over Moses..

Hey.

This was you presenting your opinion as fact....

I merely said that I don't see your criteria as consistent and on that basis can't rank the way you did. Like Kobe over Duncan because of offense/scoring... and then turn around and rank Russell so high and also Kobe over a better offensive force like Hakeem.

Of course someone can rank anyway they like... I even explained my rankings were personal preference. I just don't find you consistent and again, you stated your opinion as fact to start this whole deal.