Anyone on here honestly think Jordan impacts a game more than Wilt or Shaq?

[K]

:oldlol:

Big men are just superior. Deal with it.

[fpliii]

Nobody thinks that (same with a few other bigs), it's nonsensical. But Jordan probably comes closest out of wings.

[Mass Debator]

How do us fans measure this?

[K]

Nobody thinks that (same with a few other bigs), it's nonsensical. But Jordan probably comes closest out of wings.

:(

It just bothers me when inferior players are ranked ahead because of rings.

[fpliii]

[QUOTE=K

[TheMarkMadsen]

[QUOTE=K

[I<3NBA]

can you imagine Jordan beating Shaq?

[Flash31]

[QUOTE=K

[Sarcastic]

can you imagine Jordan beating Shaq?


It's a team game played 5 on 5, not 1 on 1.

I think this concept escapes people quite often.

[TheGreatDeraj]

They impact the game differently.

Big guys can control the paint, wings control the perimeter.

Obviously Wilt would have more impact on controlling the paint with block shots or rebounding etc

Jordan is going to have more impact on the perimeter. Wilt isn't going to be closing out on three point shooters, or trapping perimeter players etc

A team needs impact from the paint and from the perimeter to be successful.

A star wing with role players that protect the paint and rebound can win a championship

A star big with role playing wings that can shoot and run the offense can win a championship.

[fpliii]

MJ impacted the game more than Shaq, If Shaq is more dominate then MJ, then how did Shaq only make the finals ONE time during the 90's when MJ was playing?

And its not like Shaq didn't have help.

If big men impact the game so much more than wings, then tell me, in a era that produced some of the greatest big men of all time (Shaq, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Hakeem) then why did none of these guys win rings when MJ was playing?

Why is it always an acceptable excuse for the ringless Malone & Barkley to say "oh they played in the Jordan era"

Shaq wasn't in his prime, Robinson had shit teams, and Barkley/Malone weren't traditional bigs since they didn't anchor their defenses. Hakeem made it twice and if his team was worth a damn he'd make it in 93 as well.

[fpliii]

They impact the game differently.

Big guys can control the paint, wings control the perimeter.

Obviously Wilt would have more impact on controlling the paint with block shots or rebounding etc

Jordan is going to have more impact on the perimeter. Wilt isn't going to be closing out on three point shooters, or trapping perimeter players etc

A team needs impact from the paint and from the perimeter to be successful.

A star wing with role players that protect the paint and rebound can win a championship

A star big with role playing wings that can shoot and run the offense can win a championship.

Wilt isn't, but other bigs have/are. Russell, Thurmond, Hakeem, Robinson, Garnett, Noah, etc. They're more versatile and generally more valuable than guys who just protect the paint.

[Flash31]

MJ impacted the game more than Shaq, If Shaq is more dominate then MJ, then how did Shaq only make the finals ONE time during the 90's when MJ was playing?

And its not like Shaq didn't have help.

If big men impact the game so much more than wings, then tell me, in a era that produced some of the greatest big men of all time (Shaq, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Hakeem) then why did none of these guys win rings when MJ was playing?

Why is it always an acceptable excuse for the ringless Malone & Barkley to say "oh they played in the Jordan era"

MJ impacted the game MORE than Shaq
you are stupid

Reason being Shaq got to one finals Jordan more in 90s
Shaq was a rookie whos team wasnt as great as Jordans
wasnt in his prime surrounded by going up against HOF
Type Centers
while Jordan had One of GOAT Defenders in Pippen
had great shooters and roleplayers
had Goat Defender in Rodman
and had good pf in Grant and solid bench
along with something called being Medias num 1 star and NBAs poster boy who was untouchable

What Elite HOF SG did Jordan face in 90s
Drexler and ?
Shaq went up against
Hakerm,Robinson,Ewing,Mourning,Malone

You go on about rookie Shaq,so how about
how come Jordan didnt get in the Finals ONE time in the 80s
same age as Shaq
What happened then

Individuals dont win Championships regardless of what ESPN and the media tries and has made you believe
Teams DO
otherwise Wilt would have won Everything
80s pistons wouldve won jack,60s Celtics arent winning,11 Mavs arent winning

Called a Team,The Bulls not Jordan vs Hakeem vs Shaq vs Payton

[jstern]

I think a Jordan and Lebron are just as impactful, because they do so much. To judge impact you have to consider how they played against the person guarding him. You might say, "Well Shaq averaged 12 rpg," but he's a center, he's expected to average around that amount, so you have to compare by how much he would out rebound a Luc Longley.

I mean in general a great center is going to impact the game more, but these are special circumstances. Very efficient perimeter players who can shut down the person they're guarding.

[Legends66NBA7]

[QUOTE=K

[SilkkTheShocker]

Wilt :facepalm

[fpliii]

I think a Jordan and Lebron are just as impactful, because they do so much. To judge impact you have to consider how they played against the person guarding him. You might say, "Well Shaq averaged 12 rpg," but he's a center, he's expected to average around that amount, so you have to compare by how much he would out rebound a Luc Longley.

I mean in general a great center is going to impact the game more, but these are special circumstances. Very efficient perimeter players who can shut down the person they're guarding.

So you're grading on a curve? Why punish a big because of the rebounding edge positionally?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Jordan had more impact. You don't have to hide him late in games. He isn't a liability at the free-throw line. He's more mentally prepared to win than both of those big games, and proved it. You also don't need someone else to get the ball in his hands. MJ was clutch too, also to be taken into account for impact.

MJ can get to any spot on the floor he wants to create his shot. Shaq can't do that. Let's not mention being a superior passer, etc.

In that regard both MJ and LeBron are just as much impact as both of those guys because they also put forth consistent effort on defense. Yes, big men naturally have more impact. So far there has been a few exceptions to the rule: MJ, LeBron, Bird, if you want to throw Kobe in there or Wade for a couple year stretches.

[Legends66NBA7]

In that regard both MJ and LeBron are just as much impact as both of those guys because they also put forth consistent effort on defense. Yes, big men naturally have more impact. So far there has been a few exceptions to the rule: MJ, LeBron, Bird, if you want to throw Kobe in there or Wade for a couple year stretches.

I'd say Magic too. In the future, Kevin Durant might be part of this group, as well, if he hasn't already. Older greats like Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Julius Erving, etc... have just as much impact.

Rick Barry probably led the weakest roster to an NBA title in 1975 with a rookie wing player as his second option.

And the way the current NBA has shifted, many more wing players can have much more impact than big men.

[Marchesk]

Wilt :facepalm

http://cdn1.tauntr.com/sites/default/files/Chamberlain.jpg

[Young X]

Yes absolutely. I HATE the whole "bigs impact the game more than guards" argument because it's not supported by any evidence.

Why does no big have better playoff numbers, performances and consistency that Jordan does?

Why does no big rank over him in objective metrics?

Why didn't any big lift his team to higher heights than Jordan did since their so much more impactful?

If you say guards can't impact the game defensively like bigs I agree with that, but I counter that with saying bigs can't impact the game offensively like Jordan or Magic.

I wonder if you guys would take Patrick Ewing over Jordan just because he was 7 feet. :rolleyes:

[BoutPractice]

Why didn't any big lift his team to higher heights than Jordan did since their so much more impactful?

Bill Russell?

[TheMarkMadsen]

MJ impacted the game MORE than Shaq



i agree

[Legends66NBA7]

Bill Russell?

Was going to say the same. Ditto for the playoff performances/consistency part. Russell's role changed when he got older, sort of like Tim Duncan is currently since his 09 season.

[Young X]

Bill Russell?I was mainly talking about single season.

Why are the 2 most successful teams in NBA history Jordan led teams?

Can someone convince me that Jordan wasn't the most impactful player besides the "he was only 6'6" (:rolleyes:) argument?

[Legends66NBA7]

Why are the 2 most successful teams in NBA history Jordan led teams?

You're going to hear the "watered down" era argument.

[TheMarkMadsen]

from 86-97 there was only 2 Championship teams that featured a big man who made the ALL NBA team..

The only 2 came when Jordan retired.. (Hakeem 94-95)

[Young X]

Going by this logic:

Would anyone here seriously take a healthy Dwight over Lebron just cuz he's taller?

[Marchesk]

Yes absolutely. I HATE the whole "bigs impact the game more than guards" argument because it's not supported by any evidence.

Why does no big have better playoff numbers, performances and consistency that Jordan does?

Why does no big rank over him in objective metrics?

Why didn't any big lift his team to higher heights than Jordan did since their so much more impactful?

If you say guards can't impact the game defensively like bigs I agree with that, but I counter that with saying bigs can't impact the game offensively like Jordan or Magic.

I wonder if you guys would take Patrick Ewing over Jordan just because he was 7 feet. :rolleyes:

Or we can just say that Jordan was that good. Which is why he tends to get ranked over the GOAT bigs. Maybe Jordan (and Magic to an extent) are the exceptions.

But I can see it being argued both ways. You need guards to handle the ball, run the offense, keep the defense honest, and get it to the big guys.

[Marchesk]

Going by this logic:

Would anyone here seriously take a healthy Dwight over Lebron just cuz he's taller?

They're not on the same level. Lebron's already getting mention for top 10.

A better question is would you take a peak Hakeem over Lebron right now?

[NumberSix]

If Shaq is more dominate then MJ, then how did Shaq only make the finals ONE time during the 90's when MJ was playing?
The same reason why MJ made the finals ZERO times during the 80s. Because he's 1 person in a team sport you fcuking imbecile. :hammerhead:

[jstern]

So you're grading on a curve? Why punish a big because of the rebounding edge positionally?
The rebound thing was an example. The point was that you have to judge relative to their position. A center lives close to the basket, is taller, they're going to get more rebounds than a guard. But they don't have an advantage because they're going up against other centers in a similar position to them. So it would be silly to use the logic that a center is absolutely better than guard because they put up certain numbers higher on certain things but in reality is not that much higher than what's expected for that position. That seems to be the logic of some people here.

That's not to say that a great center in general doesn't impact the game more than the average guard.

I don't believe Shaq impacted a game more than Jordan, but many people here are using their confirmation bias to use it as proof that Jordan didn't impact the game as much as a Shaq, by looking at the positives that a center brings and ignoring everything that a Jordan brought.

[TheMarkMadsen]

The same reason why MJ made the finals ZERO times during the 80s. Because he's 1 person in a team sport you fcuking imbecile. :hammerhead:

Yeah except when you're talking about the 80's you're only talking about 84-89

When you're talking about Shaq and the 90's you're talking about from 92-99

Also Jordan only had rookie/young Pippen in the 80's..

Shaq had FIRST TEAM ALL NBA Penny Hardaway, Horace Grant, Nick Anderson & Dennis scott..

Penny in 94-95 Made 1st team, Shaq made 2nd team.. a First team All NBA player along with Horace Grant & Nick Anderson should be enough help for someone so dominate

[Orlando Magic]

Nobody that's rational, anyways.

[Soundwave]

Shaq wasn't able to stop his teams from imploding several times and lost several series' where he had the equal/better team.

Wilt ... wasn't much of a winner.

If *winning* is what we're talking about, Jordan trumps both. Rather easily.

As a guard you can control the game much more in clutch situations too ... the ball is in your hands, you control the game. Shaq/Wilt never really did that.

Grabbing rebounds/blocking shots is great, but push come to shove in a close game, MJ is simply more valuable than either as he's the greatest clutch performer in NBA history IMO.

As a singular force, I don't think there's ever been more of a difference maker than Jordan. You could outplay the Bulls and still end up losing because he could close out the game with a 2-3 minute stretch and knock you out.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Yeah except when you're talking about the 80's you're only talking about 84-89

When you're talking about Shaq and the 90's you're talking about from 92-99

Also Jordan only had rookie/young Pippen in the 80's..

Shaq had FIRST TEAM ALL NBA Penny Hardaway, Horace Grant, Nick Anderson & Dennis scott..

Penny in 94-95 Made 1st team, Shaq made 2nd team.. a First team All NBA player along with Horace Grant & Nick Anderson should be enough help for someone so dominate

You got owned son. Move on.

[Soundwave]

Personally too I don't think Wilt or Shaq ever wanted to *win* as bad as Jordan did.

Parts of basketball are about skill, parts are your physical prowess ... but what a lot of people on this board don't discuss (probably because a lot of them never really have played basketball at a relatively high level) is the part of the basketball that's about your will power.

How bad do you want it? How far can you push your body? What do you have in the tank when you jumper is off and your legs burn and your lungs burn? What then?

In those situations Jordan just had another level he could go to, his intangibles were off the charts.

Many times in clutch situations watching Bulls games I'd notice Jordan would get key rebounds for the Bulls.

Strip away basketball and at some point it's just a matter of will. Who wants it more. That's what I love about basketball too ... it will expose you if you don't have heart. All the flashy dunks, nice stat sheets, etc. will be exposed if you don't have the balls to back up your game.

[Marchesk]

In those situations Jordan just had another level he could go to, his intangibles were off the charts.

Many times in clutch situations watching Bulls games I'd notice Jordan would get key rebounds for the Bulls.

Strip away basketball and at some point it's just a matter of will. Who wants it more.

And that's what put Jordan over the top as the GOAT. He's ultra-competitive. And it seems like Pippen absorbed that from Mike. Probably the entire Bulls team to an extent.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Personally too I don't think Wilt or Shaq ever wanted to *win* as bad as Jordan did.

Parts of basketball are about skill, parts are your physical prowess ... but what a lot of people on this board don't discuss (probably because a lot of them never really have played basketball at a relatively high level) is the part of the basketball that's about your will power.

How bad do you want it? How far can you push your body? What do you have in the tank when you jumper is off and your legs burn and your lungs burn? What then?

In those situations Jordan just had another level he could go to, his intangibles were off the charts.

Many times in clutch situations watching Bulls games I'd notice Jordan would get key rebounds for the Bulls.

Strip away basketball and at some point it's just a matter of will. Who wants it more. That's what I love about basketball too ... it will expose you if you don't have heart. All the flashy dunks, nice stat sheets, etc. will be exposed if you don't have the balls to back up your game.
Someone who plays, and gets it. Nice input. It's not always the skill of the man, but the will of the man. Intangibles, heart. People on ISH just don't understand things that don't show up in stat sheets or highlight reels, bro. A lot of John Hollingers around these parts.


And that's what put Jordan over the top as the GOAT. He's ultra-competitive. And it seems like Pippen absorbed that from Mike. Probably the entire Bulls team to an extent.
Which highlights the fake ultra-competitiveness of Kobe. Or we wouldn't see him show ponying on defense, and being lazy on rotations. Saving himself for shot jacking PPG agenda on the other end, instead of going all out on both ends ... inspiring his teammates.

If he was actually as competitive as Mike, it would trickle down to his teammates. And they'd fall in line like soldiers for him. That's what leaders do. There wouldn't be these effort questions on his teams, or clashing agendas of players.

[TheMarkMadsen]

You got owned son. Move on.

:facepalm

Jordan had 4 years in the 80's to make the finals..

[Soundwave]

That was the thing with MJ he had all the skill in the world and was well blessed with extreme athleticism too, but both paled in comparision to his compete level and will.

Shaq? Was kinda like the big bully, was great when front running, but when he got socked in the face by someone willing stand up against him, often times the entire Lakers/Magic/etc. would crumble like a deck of cards around him.

Don't get me wrong, Shaq is amazing, I have him ranked higher on my GOAT list than most ... but there's definitely a difference there.

Shaq liked to win. Jordan had to win. His failures only drove him to become even more maniacal about winning. There's a big difference in that mind set.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Shaq? Was kinda like the big bully, was great when front running, but when he got socked in the face by someone willing stand up against him, often times the entire Lakers/Magic/etc. would crumble like a deck of cards around him.
I actually think LeBron is like that as well.

[TheMarkMadsen]

You got owned son. Move on.

...


He had almost no floor spacing to drive for most of the Finals.




http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2810003/Screen_Shot_2013-06-19_at_1.25.27_AM.png

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2809795/Screen_Shot_2013-06-19_at_1.31.41_AM.png

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2810131/Screen_Shot_2013-06-19_at_1.27.03_AM.png

Lebron plays with SHOOTERS, which is why he has open lanes..

to bad he doesn't open up Lanes for Dwade..

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2810051/Screen_Shot_2013-06-19_at_1.21.35_AM.png

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2810063/Screen_Shot_2013-06-19_at_1.23.20_AM.png


Thats what getting owned looks like

[Soundwave]

I actually think LeBron is like that as well.

Yeah in mentality, I've compared Shaq and LeBron too. They both kinda have a "I give up" point if you push them hard enough, they will give and generally their team collapses around them when that happens.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Yeah in mentality, I've compared Shaq and LeBron too. They both kinda have a "I give up" point if you push them hard enough, they will give and generally their team collapses around them when that happens.
Yea, they have a name for that sort of thing too.

[OldSchoolBBall]

At his peak ('89-'92) he certainly did.

[SamuraiSWISH]

At his peak ('89-'92) he certainly did.
:biggums:

You don't want to throw '93 in there for good measure? He was considered DPOY by coaches, put up 33 ppg. I'd say that season belongs in there. Possibly even 1996.

[TheReal Kendall]

They both impact the game in different ways.

I would say a guard of MJ's caliber impacts it more than a Big like Shaq due to the simple fact that Shaq has to rely on someone to throw him the ball on the block.

He can't consistently bring the ball up and do work on the perimeter.

MJ can do it all basically.

Barkley would be a another example of someone that can do it all also. He didn't have to rely on a guard to get him the ball.

You really can't go by wins cause MJ had a better team than young Shaq.

Wins and rings are a team accomplishment. No one man wins alone

[Young X]

Jordan from '88-'96 is the best, most impactful player to ever play the game. Period.

[TonyMontana]

The people that do are the ones that cant think for themselves.

Phil Jackson often goes underlooked in Jordan/Shaq comparisons. Jordan had Phil Jackson for the entire 90s while Shaq had bum coaches like Brian Hill, Kurt Rambis, and Del Harris. It is not a coincidence that the first year Shaq got a great coach like Phil, he put up the best season of any player in NBA History while Jordan had a guy like that his entire prime. Should Jordan have had Brian Hill and the Magic had Phil Jackson at head coach, we'd see the Magic with all of the banners in the 90s.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kM2OdZPVaw

Shaq is the best because his domination is effortless. You can practice as hard as you want, but you'll never be 7'1 with a 7'8 wingspan and be one of the top athletes in basketball history. All Shaq had to do was walk out there and hes guaranteed to be the best player on the court. If Jordan has a tough shooting night(much more common than a poor shooting night from Shaq) the same impact is not there because he doesn't rebound exceptionally well, he doesn't protect the rim, and he doesn't make his teammates better.

[I<3NBA]

It's a team game played 5 on 5, not 1 on 1.

I think this concept escapes people quite often.
okay. so how about we switch them with their championship squads?
Jordan in the 3 peat Lakers and Shaq in the 3peat Bulls. they play each other. who wins?

or how about we give them the exact same teammates and they play each other, who do you think wins?

[aj1987]

...

Thats what getting owned looks like

Picture 1: Neal is a horrible defender. Green is an average defender. From the picture, I can see green about to leave his defender, to help Splitter(?). Same with Neal. He's about to leave his man, to help Splitter, who's on Lebron.

Picture 2: The should be petrified to leave their defender. Chalmers and Miller were hitting their shots in the game. Miller hit a 3 to start the 4th (assisted by Lebron) and hit 2-2 for the game. He scored 8 on 4 shots. Chalmers hit a 3 (assisted by Lebron, again) in the opening seconds of the 4th as well. Chalmers, for the game, scored 20 points on 7/11 shooting. Including 4/5 from the three. The Spurs defenders would be stupid to actually sag off of them.

Picture 3: See 1 & 2. Neal is a horrible and lazy defender. Also, Miller was hitting his shots in the game.



Lebron plays with SHOOTERS, which is why he has open lanes..

to bad he doesn't open up Lanes for Dwade..
Picture 4 & 5: Wade scored 6 points in 4 minutes in the 3rd quarter. The same timeframe during which the pictures were taken. Lebron scored 5 points in the entire 3rd quarter. All of which were from FT's. Wade is one of the best finishers at the rim as well and has a much better post game than Lebron. That, coupled with the fact that Lebron's shot wasn't going in all game is why defenders might've ignored him on a couple of plays. Hence, the added defensive attention on Wade.
Also, Diaw was guarding Lebron. Diaw is also extremely lazy when it comes to defense, unless he's using his body to slow down players.

And yeah, what Silkk said is true (can't believe that I'm agreeing with him). The Spurs packed the paint the whole series. Neither Wade, nor Lebron were getting to the hoop consistently. There's a reason why the Spurs were rated the 3rd best defense in '13.

[SamuraiSWISH]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kM2OdZPVaw
My oh my ... all the offensive fouls. The elbows, the throwing of the weight.

So in essence, you just said coaches win in the NBA, and not players. A complete fallacy to anyone who pays attention to the sport.

[TonyMontana]

okay. so how about we switch them with their championship squads?
Jordan in the 3 peat Lakers and Shaq in the 3peat Bulls. they play each other. who wins?

or how about we give them the exact same teammates and they play each other, who do you think wins?

Im adding Shaq to the 94 Bulls that won 55 games without Jordan. Take note that this is a team that without Shaq took the Knicks to 7 games and lost the series on a controversial call. The Knicks would go on to lose in 7 games to Hakeems Rockets. They were a play away from winning a title.

C- Shaq
F- Horace Grant(28 years old)
F- Pippen
G- Pete Myers
G- BJ Armstrong

Best frontcourt of all-time? Toni Kukoc and Steve Kerr off the bench to provide spacing

vs...2001 Lakers with Jordan instead of Shaq(The team that went 15-1 in the playoffs)

C- Horace Grant(35 years old)
F- Robert Horry
F-Kobe Bryant
G- MJ
G- Derek Fisher

This would be an absolute blood bath. Shaqs Bulls would DESTROY them.

[TonyMontana]

My oh my ... all the offensive fouls. The elbows, the throwing of the weight.

So in essence, you just said coaches win in the NBA, and not players. A complete fallacy to anyone who pays attention to the sport.

Thats big boy ball for you. If you cant handle it get off the court.

Players matter, but to act like coaching is irrelevant is a joke. Phil Jackson is the best head coach in basketball history while Brian Hill is a guy that couldn't even get a .500 record in a single season as a coach postShaq. Here is his coaching record postShaq.

1997 Orlando: 24-25(was fired midseason because his players revolted against him LOL)

1998 Vancouver: 19-63
1999 Vancouvcer: 8-42
2000 Vancouver: 4-18(fired)

2006 Orlando: 36-46
2007 Orlando: 40-42

He is one of the worst coaches ever.

[SamuraiSWISH]

1998 Vancouver: 19-63
1999 Vancouvcer: 8-42
2000 Vancouver: 4-18(fired)

2006 Orlando: 36-46
2007 Orlando: 40-42
Do you realize the talent he had on those teams? As I said, in the NBA players win.

Players matter first, coaches influence. Of course a great coach helps, but great players can make even average coaches look good. Poor or average players can make great coaches look underwhelming. See Jerry Sloan.

Players. Talent wins in the pros. Not coaches.

And no, that isn't "big boy ball" ... that's called fouls that are being conveniently ignored.

Fact of the matter remains, if Shaq's dominance was so effortless, he would've won before Phil Jackson motivated him. Guy had star studded help and failed year after year.

And it wasn't the coaches fault. Excuses. Shaq is a career underachiever for being so "dominant" ...

Look at Montana ...

Shaq HAD Horace Grant, Penny Hardaway, and shooters / floor spacers in Nick Anderson and Dennis Scott and still didn't win.

[fpliii]

Damn, TonyMontana is feasting on this thread. He's going to town here.

I don't know if I'd take it to the same extremes, but a lot of what he's saying is true. I'll stop by later and see if this is still going strong.

[bdreason]

MJ is probably the only perimeter player I would include amongst the great bigs. I'm tempted to put Bird in that category as well.

[TheGreatDeraj]

At the end of games you want your best player taking the shot.

It is much easier for a guard to get open for the ball. It is also easier for a guard to get a shot off. And if they do get the shot off it's more likely the big guy is going to get fouled unless he is taking a jumper(not likely for shaq). So what if he gets fouled.


Big difference in a 85% guy and a 70% guy in the clutch.

Let's say you need two freethrows.

.85*.85 = 72.25% chance of making both freethrows

.7*.7 = 49% chance of making both freethrows - Big guy will hit both only about half of the time while the guard is at nearly 3 out of every four.

What if he gets fouled on back to back plays in the clutch?

.85^4=52% about half the time the guard will make all four

what about hitting at least 3 of the 4 free throws? That's certainly not ideal but still acceptable to put yourself in a good position to win.

P(k out of N) = (N!/k!(N-k)!*(p^k)*(q^(N-k))

n=4
k=3
p=.85
q=.15

P(3 out of 4) = (4!/3!(4-3)!*(.85^3)*(.15^(4-3))=36%

52%+36% = 88% chance of hitting at least 3 of the 4 freethrows. Nearly 9 out of every 10 games he would hit at least 3 of 4 clutch freethrows.

Only 12% of the time or about 1 every 10 games the guard would "choke" and miss two or more freethrows possibly costing them the game.




Now compare that to the big guy

.7^4=24% of the time the big will make all four


P(k out of N) = (N!/k!(N-k)!*(p^k)*(q^(N-k))

n=4
k=3
p=.7
q=.3

P(3 out of 4) = (4!/3!(4-3)!*(.7^3)*(.3^(4-3))=41% chance

24%+41% = 65% chance of hitting at least 3 of the 4 freethrows. 6-7 games out of every 10 games he would hit at least 3 of 4 clutch freethrows.

That means 45% of the time or every 4 or 5 games out of 10 the big guy would "choke" and miss two or more freethrows possibly costing them the game.

[jstern]

Damn, TonyMontana is feasting on this thread. He's going to town here.

I don't know if I'd take it to the same extremes, but a lot of what he's saying is true. I'll stop by later and see if this is still going strong.

Do you really think that? Or do you think perhaps it seems that way to you because he's saying things you agree with?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Shaq NEEDED great guards to win.

Penny helped him get to the Finals, then Kobe propped him up in the clutch against tough opponents to win his 3x rings. And to finish it off Wade, another top five all-time SG dragged past his prime Shaq to another ring, this time he was a sidekick.

Jordan, LeBron didn't need a big man or low post scorer to win MULTIPLE rings. That is facts.

[fpliii]

Do you really think that? Or do you think perhaps it seems that way to you because he's saying things you agree with?

A little of both probably, but I'm also instigating. It's the offseason.

EDIT: But I do think there's a massive gap between the best bigs and non-bigs (in an all-time draft, 12 or 13 of the first 15 on my board would be big men). When I have more time on my hands I'll present my argument as thoroughly and clearly as I can.

[Soundwave]

Im adding Shaq to the 94 Bulls that won 55 games without Jordan. Take note that this is a team that without Shaq took the Knicks to 7 games and lost the series on a controversial call. The Knicks would go on to lose in 7 games to Hakeems Rockets. They were a play away from winning a title.

C- Shaq
F- Horace Grant(28 years old)
F- Pippen
G- Pete Myers
G- BJ Armstrong

Best frontcourt of all-time? Toni Kukoc and Steve Kerr off the bench to provide spacing

vs...2001 Lakers with Jordan instead of Shaq(The team that went 15-1 in the playoffs)

C- Horace Grant(35 years old)
F- Robert Horry
F-Kobe Bryant
G- MJ
G- Derek Fisher

This would be an absolute blood bath. Shaqs Bulls would DESTROY them.

I take the Lakers. Horry was really good IMO, he scaled his game back to compliment Shaq, but without Shaq I think he could step up and do more. Terrific defender too.

Kobe Bryant I'm sorry is a better player than Scottie Pippen. I love Pip, but Bryant is simply better when focused. I think Jordan would focus Kobe in a way and not let him wander so much.

Fisher is better than Steve Kerr or BJ Armstrong IMO.

Grant wasn't great but neither were Longley/Cartwright, though in this scenario the hypothetical "Jordan Lakers" would probably have signed some 7 foot stiffs to absorb some fouls.

I'd double Shaq all game long and wear Pippen down by sending Jordan and Bryant at him.

[TonyMontana]

A little of both probably, but I'm also instigating. It's the offseason.

EDIT: But I do think there's a massive gap between the best bigs and non-bigs (in an all-time draft, 12 or 13 of the first 15 on my board would be big men). When I have more time on my hands I'll present my argument as thoroughly and clearly as I can.

Yup. The amount of people on Earth that are 7 feet is extremely low, let alone ones that have the coordination to be a good basketball player.

The 20/10 centers that dominate on both ends always get picked first overall in the draft. Their skillset is incredibly rare, and INCREDIBLY valuable. Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Robinson, Ewing, Kareem, Bill Walton...

It's easier to find an all-star SG/SF than it is to find an all-star Center, let alone the ones where talking about(the all-time greats). Every given year there are 5+ extremely talented swingman. Sometimes there isn't even a single extremely dominant 7 footer in the entire league. When you have one on your team it is huge.

Just look at the average all-star in terms of position.. What is the bigger upgrade? James Harden to Michael Jordan? Or Brook Lopez to Shaquille O'Neal?

[fpliii]

Yup. The amount of people on Earth that are 7 feet is extremely low, let alone ones that have the coordination to be a good basketball player.

The 20/10 centers that dominate on both ends always get picked first overall in the draft. Their skillset is incredibly rare, and INCREDIBLY valuable. Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Robinson, Ewing, Kareem, Bill Walton...

It's easier to find an all-star SG/SF than it is to find an all-star Center, let alone the ones where talking about(the all-time greats). Every given year there are 5+ extremely talented swingman. Sometimes there isn't even a single extremely dominant 7 footer in the entire league. When you have one on your team it is huge.

Just look at the average all-star in terms of position.. What is the bigger upgrade? James Harden to Michael Jordan? Or Brook Lopez to Shaquille O'Neal?

Now I think this part is tricky. The league is very weak as far as big men are concerned, so I think if you choose a Dwight Howard instead (probably a bit too much) it's not as big of a gap. Dwight->Shaq is still a bigger upgrade than Harden->Jordan, but I think the difference between the gap from average C->Shaq and average SG->Jordan is much, much greater.

[TonyMontana]

I take the Lakers. Horry was really good IMO, he would be given a bigger role.

Kobe Bryant I'm sorry is a better player than Scottie Pippen. I love Pip, but Bryant is simply better. I think Jordan would also focus Kobe in a way and not let him wander so much.

Fisher is better than Steve Kerr or BJ Armstrong IMO.

Grant wasn't great but neither were Longley/Cartwright, though in this scenario the hypothetical "Jordan Lakers" would probably have signed some 7 foot stiffs to absorb some fouls.

The Lakers have no chance.

I recently watched the 1995 NBA Finals and nearly all of Hakeems points where in transition or when Shaq went to the bench. Horace Grant was the secondary defender on him and was absolutely incapable of guarding him in the post. And this was in his best years.... 35 year old Horace Grant guarding 2001 Shaq? Shaq would average 50 PPG+. And if you dont want Horace to guard him, who then? Mark Madsen?

Neither MJ nor Kobe would be able to exploit their matchup even close to degree that Shaq would, especially with Pippen guarding one of them. Again this is another testament to just how valuable a guy like Shaq is. Few guys can matchup with that just because of his physical abilities.

And Pippen > Kobe as a complimentary star. You think Kobe was butthurt playing second fiddle to Shaq? Imagine how he'd feel with Jordan. The game will turn into a dick measuring contest between those two to see who can chuck up more shots.

I don't think 35 year old Horace/Horry would be able to get a single rebound against Prime Shaq and Prime Horace, not to mention Jordan/Kobe are both powerless to combat the interior. None of those guys can pull a LeBron and overcome a frontcourt that gets abused nightly.

[Soundwave]

Yup. The amount of people on Earth that are 7 feet is extremely low, let alone ones that have the coordination to be a good basketball player.

The 20/10 centers that dominate on both ends always get picked first overall in the draft. Their skillset is incredibly rare, and INCREDIBLY valuable. Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Robinson, Ewing, Kareem, Bill Walton...

It's easier to find an all-star SG/SF than it is to find an all-star Center, let alone the ones where talking about(the all-time greats). Every given year there are 5+ extremely talented swingman. Sometimes there isn't even a single extremely dominant 7 footer in the entire league. When you have one on your team it is huge.

Just look at the average all-star in terms of position.. What is the bigger upgrade? James Harden to Michael Jordan? Or Brook Lopez to Shaquille O'Neal?

Bottom line is Shaq was surrounded by top tier talent all his career and he has two less championships than Jordan and really that 4th title he needed to be carried by Wade to get there. MJ never needed to be carried by anyone.

He just couldn't will his team to win in the same way.

He could be 8 feet tall, at some point it doesn't make a difference. Basketball isn't about who has the most physical gifts.

He could not control the game in the same way Jordan could. That's the most rare quality is a player who can control a game and single handedly tip the scales of winning/losing into his teams favor in the toughest situations.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I take the Lakers. Horry was really good IMO, he scaled his game back to compliment Shaq, but without Shaq I think he could step up and do more. Terrific defender too.

Kobe Bryant I'm sorry is a better player than Scottie Pippen. I love Pip, but Bryant is simply better when focused. I think Jordan would focus Kobe in a way and not let him wander so much.

Fisher is better than Steve Kerr or BJ Armstrong IMO.

Grant wasn't great but neither were Longley/Cartwright, though in this scenario the hypothetical "Jordan Lakers" would probably have signed some 7 foot stiffs to absorb some fouls.

I'd double Shaq all game long and wear Pippen down by sending Jordan and Bryant at him.
I'd say Paxson, BJ, and Fisher are all on the same level. Provide the exact same things, although Armstrong was the best defender of the three.

The rest, I agree with.

All they need as you said is stiffs to throw on Shaq. Double him, even if Shaq gets his ... make Pippen beat you. Who can't create, score, or finish like Kobe and Jordan. Hell, he couldn't create, score or finish like Penny.

To act like that Shaq / Pippen team would slaughter Jordan / Kobe's Lakers is absurd. MJ lead the Bulls past a very similar Shaq led team in 1996 in a dominating sweep. Are we going to even insinuate that Pippen was vastly superior to 1996 Penny Hardaway?

And yes, Horry is being underrated in this comparison. He's essentially similar to Cliff Robinson. I'm sure he could produce the same.

Jordan would get the most out of Kobe, being his idol. Probably the only player in history Kobe would willingly fall in line for too. He respected his talents, and unlike Shaq, respected his intangibles and mentality. His desire or need to win.

[Soundwave]

I'd say Paxson, BJ, and Fisher are all on the same level. Provide the exact same things, although Armstrong was the best defender of the three.

The rest, I agree with.

All they need as you said is stiffs to throw on Shaq. Double him, even if Shaq gets his ... make Pippen beat you. Who can't create, score, or finish like Kobe and Jordan. Hell, he couldn't create, score or finish like Penny.

To act like that Shaq / Pippen team would slaughter Jordan / Kobe's Lakers is absurd. MJ lead the Bulls past a very similar Shaq led team in 1996 in a dominating sweep. Are we going to even insinuate that Pippen was vastly superior to 1996 Penny Hardaway?

And yes, Horry is being underrated in this comparison. He's essentially similar to Cliff Robinson. I'm sure he could produce the same.

Jordan would get the most out of Kobe, being his idol. Probably the only player in history Kobe would willingly fall in line for too. He respected his talents, and unlike Shaq, respected his intangibles and mentality. His desire or need to win.

Exactly ... make Scottie beat you. His jumper was hot/cold a lot of times. He would be totally gassed by the end of night trying to guard Jordan and Kobe, and the truth is he can't guard either.

That team would be horrid in the clutch too ... Pippen couldn't handle taking the big shot and Shaq is a massive liability.

Jordan/Kobe/Fisher/Horry would be insane to try and guard against in a tight game, they all are comfortable taking and making big shots.

[TonyMontana]

Now I think this part is tricky. The league is very weak as far as big men are concerned, so I think if you choose a Dwight Howard instead (probably a bit too much) it's not as big of a gap. Dwight->Shaq is still a bigger upgrade than Harden->Jordan, but I think the difference between the gap from average C->Shaq and average SG->Jordan is much, much greater.

Dwights been the best center in the league for years now, despite his down year last year which can be attributed to 1) Mike D'Antoni 2) playing with Kobe Bryant and 3) injuries to start the year. Duncan was the best last year, but I expect Dwight to reclaim his throne next year.

Thats like comparing LeBron->Jordan (the best wing in the league right now).



All they need as you said is stiffs to throw on Shaq. Double him, even if Shaq gets his ...


http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/mj-laughing.gif

[Soundwave]

MJ ain't losing to the Pistons in 04, nor would he need to have his ass carried by Wade in 06 (relative to the same age as Shaq).

Nor would he have let a feud with Kobe Bryant get so far out of control, Shaq was childish and should have taken control of the situation being the "older brother" as it were.

MJ probably thought Rodman was a nutcase, but he never let it interfere with the team harmony or tried to show up Dennis, because he's not that stupid. Bottom line is MJ was concerned with winning, not his ego.

Shaq could be the undisputed GOAT. He just didn't want it bad enough.

You give MJ the same talent to play with in his career from day 1 -- Penny/Grant/Anderson/3D, Kobe/Horry/Fox/Grant, Wade and LeBron later on ... he'd have 8 or 9 titles IMO.

The teams would obviously have to be built a little differently as you'd have to move in some OK 7 foot stiffs, but that's about it.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Exactly ... make Scottie beat you. His jumper was hot/cold a lot of times. He would be totally gassed by the end of night trying to guard Jordan and Kobe, and the truth is he can't guard either.

That team would be horrid in the clutch too ... Pippen couldn't handle taking the big shot and Shaq is a massive liability.

Jordan/Kobe/Fisher/Horry would be insane to try and guard against in a tight game, they all are comfortable taking and making big shots.
Bingo.

Pippen couldn't even get it done in Houston or in Portland ... with Shaq's Lakers on the ropes.

All of a sudden he's going to develop instincts, and even abilities he didn't posses his entire career, even in his prime?

Montana LOOKING for reasons to down grade the best player of all-time, and the best guard since he played.

As if MJ the competitive demon, and his wannabe clone would just stand idly by as Shaq got off on scrub centers, and both of these TENACIOUS on ball defenders would supposedly get eaten up by Pippen's good, hardly great, scoring capabilities in the half court set.

Right.

:oldlol:

[fpliii]

MJ ain't losing to the Pistons in 04, nor would he need to have his ass carried by Wade in 06 (relative to the same age as Shaq).

Dude that 04 Pistons squad after getting Sheed was the third best defense in NBA history (after the 64 and 65 Celtics). Even if you feel that MJ would've led his team to a win (I don't know how he fared against top defenses offhand), there's no way in hell you can say for sure that he "ain't losing". They didn't have any traditional superstars, but that Detroit team was insane.

[aj1987]

Hell, he couldn't create, score or finish like Penny.
Wipe that AirCum out of your eyes. Pippen has more 20 PPG seasons than Penny. Pippen is considered by some to be a top 30 GOAT.


Are we going to even insinuate that Pippen was vastly superior to 1996 Penny Hardaway?
Yes, he is. Pippen is a much much much better player than Hardaway. Pippen could score, pass, and rebound. He's also one of the greatest perimeter defenders ever.

Pippen without Jordan led the Bulls to a 55 win season with averages of 22/9/6/3/1 on 50%.

[Soundwave]

I think Jordan (we're talking in his late 20s/30s) would be a really good influence on Kobe.

MJ had a habit of getting his teammates to focus.

Shaq was his immaturity made the situation with Kobe 10x worse than it had to be. He was considerably older and should've known better. A leader doesn't behave the way Shaq did even if Kobe could rub people the wrong way.

Under MJ I think Kobe would learn "you have talent, you don't need to press so hard, you can score 30 at will every night".

[SamuraiSWISH]

Dude that 04 Pistons squad after getting Sheed was the third best defense in NBA history (after the 64 and 65 Celtics). Even if you feel that MJ would've led his team to a win (I don't know how he fared against top defenses offhand), there's no way in hell you can say for sure that he "ain't losing". They didn't have any traditional superstars, but that Detroit team was insane.
He faced comparable all-time time defenses in 1992 and 1993 to the 2004 Pistons. Bad Boy Pistons just as good, too. If Wade mashed on the same team the very next season. You don't think MJ would? Kobe struggled because he was jumper happy. MJ in his prime was a mix of Wade and Kobe. Meaning he was quick as hell and would take it to the rack like Wade, just as easily as he could rise up for the jumper and rain them down on you like Kobe. Flawless.

[Soundwave]

He faced comparable all-time time defenses in 1992 and 1993 to the 2004 Pistons. Bad Boy Pistons just as good, too. If Wade mashed on the same team the very next season. You don't think MJ would? Kobe struggled because he was jumper happy. MJ in his prime was a mix of Wade and Kobe. Meaning he was quick as hell and would take it to the rack, just as easily as he could rise up for the jumper.

The Bad Boy Pistons were better than the 04 Pistons.

04 Pistons would just be a bad imitation to MJ. They wouldn't be able to get away with half the stuff the Bad Boy Pistons were able to get away with either.

Lakers pissed that series away because Shaq and Kobe couldn't stand each other and that was basically the boiling point.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Lakers pissed that series away because Shaq and Kobe couldn't stand each other and that was basically the boiling point.
Basically. Kobe was selfishly gunning to prove he was the best player and wanted to win the Finals MVP. Shaq was still at times struggling with 6'8 Ben Wallace.

:oldlol:

And I agree the Bad Boy Pistons were better, but you can't upset the defensive rating folks. They're too limited to know the numerical ranking adjusts for pace. Slow the game down, take less shots and regardless you'll have a sub 100 defensive rating.


Pippen has more 20 PPG seasons than Penny.
Because Pippen never had any career altering injuries like Penny? Dat logic. Penny was the better offensive player. That much was obvious. He was only getting better too. Obviously Pippen is superior defensively.

[Soundwave]

Basically. Kobe was selfishly gunning to prove he was the best player and wanted to win the Finals MVP.

It was basically the culmination of 8 years of animosity between the two.

Shaq deserves some blame too. Kobe may have acted like a prick, but Shaq has the mentality of an overgrown 15-year-old and in his case, him being the older one, he should've known better.

That's actually what I think seperates MJ from Shaq and LeBron. Shaq and LeBron are manchildren. Physically blessed sure, but mentally they're like kids.

Jordan was a man. So was Bird. So was Magic. Kobe emulates it but tries too hard to copy it rather than finding for himself, though with age I think he has gotten closer to it.

[TonyMontana]

MJ ain't losing to the Pistons in 04, nor would he need to have his ass carried by Wade in 06 (relative to the same age as Shaq).

Nor would he have let a feud with Kobe Bryant get so far out of control, Shaq was childish and should have taken control of the situation being the "older brother" as it were.

MJ probably thought Rodman was a nutcase, but he never let it interfere with the team harmony or tried to show up Dennis, because he's not that stupid. Bottom line is MJ was concerned with winning, not his ego.

Shaq could be the undisputed GOAT. He just didn't want it bad enough.

You give MJ the same talent to play with in his career from day 1 -- Penny/Grant/Anderson/3D, Kobe/Horry/Fox/Grant, Wade and LeBron later on ... he'd have 8 or 9 titles IMO.

The teams would obviously have to be built a little differently as you'd have to move in some OK 7 foot stiffs, but that's about it.

:oldlol:
Where to begin with this undeducated post.

Lets begin with the 2004 Pistons, the best defense in modern NBA History.
Shaq: 26.6 PPG 10.8 RPG 63.1% shooting Top WS in the series

Considering this was a Shaq slightly past his prime, and that he was primarily being defended by Ben Wallace, who won the DPOY for the previous two years and would go on to win the two seasons after this for a total of 4 .... and that there was also help from the other Wallace since the Lakers had zero impact from the 4 position....... :facepalm

Pretty good numbers. The Lakers lost because basketball is a team game and here are the rest of the main players. (in order of the next leading scorers)

Kobe: 22.6 PPG 38.1% shooting
Fisher: 6.4 PPG 30.6% shooting
Devean George: 5.8 PPG 39.3% shooting
Payton: 4.2 PPG 31.2% shooting

:facepalm

As far as Jordan "getting along with Rodman", why would they have problems? Because Rodman is weird off the court? The fact of the matter is that Rodman LOVES Jordan and sucks him off every chance he gets. Why would Jordans ego(possibly the largest in all of sports) be upset at a guy that does all the dirty work for the team and on top of it worships the ground he walks on?

Are Shaq and Kobe feuding if Kobe accepts his role as Robin? One can argue that Kobe sabotaged that 2004 series with all of his terrible shots. Deep down Kobe would have rather lost that series than seen Shaq get another Finals MVP and he remineded that he is Robin.

And Jordan isn't winning any rings on the Magic if you switch him and Shaqs teams in the 90s. Shaq, Phil Jackson, Rodman,Pippen vs Jordan, Penny, BRIAN HILL, Horace(who was hurt when the Bulls beat the Magic in 96). Phil would take Shaqs game to another level and we'd see the legend known as Peak Shaq much sooner than 2000.

[SamuraiSWISH]

It was basically the culmination of 8 years of animosity between the two.

Shaq deserves some blame too. Kobe may have acted like a prick, but Shaq has the mentality of an overgrown 15-year-old and in his case, him being the older one, he should've known better.

That's actually what I think seperates MJ from Shaq and LeBron. Shaq and LeBron are manchildren. Physically blessed sure, but mentally they're like kids.

Jordan was a man. So was Bird. So was Magic. Kobe emulates it but tries too hard to copy it rather than finding for himself, though with age I think he has gotten closer to it.
Word for word agreed.

[aj1987]

Because Pippen never had any career altering injuries like Penny? You that dumb? The only thing Pippen has on Penny is his impact on defense. On offense, Penny was better ... and was still improving before injuries robbed him of his abilities.
The best season Penny ever had was in '96. His third year. He averaged 22/4/7/2/1 on 51%. After that, he was constantly injured.

Pippen is a much much better player than Hardaway. It's not even close. Give Shaq MJ's Bulls, he would've won the same number of rings.

[Soundwave]

:oldlol:
Where to begin with this undeducated post.

Lets begin with the 2004 Pistons, the best defense in modern NBA History.
Shaq: 26.6 PPG 10.8 RPG 63.1% shooting Top WS in the series

Considering this was a Shaq slightly past his prime, and that he was primarily being defended by Ben Wallace, who won the DPOY for the previous two years and would go on to win the two seasons after this for a total of 4 .... and that there was also help from the other Wallace since the Lakers had zero impact from the 4 position....... :facepalm

Pretty good numbers. The Lakers lost because basketball is a team game and here are the rest of the main players. (in order of the next leading scorers)

Kobe: 22.6 PPG 38.1% shooting
Fisher: 6.4 PPG 30.6% shooting
Devean George: 5.8 PPG 39.3% shooting
Payton: 4.2 PPG 31.2% shooting

:facepalm

As far as Jordan "getting along with Rodman", why would they have problems? Because Rodman is weird off the court? The fact of the matter is that Rodman LOVES Jordan and sucks him off every chance he gets. Why would Jordans ego(possibly the largest in all of sports) be upset at a guy that does all the dirty work for the team and on top of it worships the ground he walks on?

Are Shaq and Kobe feuding if Kobe accepts his role as Robin? One can argue that Kobe sabotaged that 2004 series with all of his terrible shots. Deep down Kobe would have rather lost that series than seen Shaq get another Finals MVP and he remineded that he is Robin.

And Jordan isn't winning any rings on the Magic if you switch him and Shaqs teams in the 90s. Shaq, Phil Jackson, Rodman,Pippen vs Jordan, Penny, BRIAN HILL, Horace(who was hurt when the Bulls beat the Magic in 96). Phil would take Shaqs game to another level and we'd see the legend known as Peak Shaq much sooner than 2000.

Maybe Shaq should've acted like a grown adult instead of an oversized junior high kid in the lockerroom. It's not all Kobe's fault, and it pains me to say that because I'm no Kobe fan.

I like Shaq a lot, but mentally his mindset could often times be clouded by immaturity, something that was never an issue with Jordan.

And I think around Kobe, his immaturity just exasberated the situation far more than it had to be. Shaq was older and already had tons of accolades in his career, yet he manufactured feuds with Penny and Kobe for really no reason.

Shaq had tons of talent every season outside of his rookie year, yet only managed 3 titles as the no.1 option.

He underachieved in his career IMO, and that simply boils down to the fact that he didn't want it bad enough. There's no good reason he shouldn't be a 6/7/8 time NBA champion. He was surrounded by all the talent in the world, and about '96 or so, Hakeem was declining big time too, so he didn't really even have much in the way of direct competition at his position.

I never understood the Shaq/Kobe Lakers. At all. You guys had it all, but squandered it by arguing like a bunch of little bitches.

[TheMan]

The same reason why MJ made the finals ZERO times during the 80s. Because he's 1 person in a team sport you fcuking imbecile. :hammerhead:
Name me one NBA 1st teamer Jordan played with from 84-89? Shaq had Penny...now I know for sure you didn't watch 90's NBA or you would know Penny was an absolute beast pre-injuries. Easily a better player than anyone Jordan played with in the 80s.

[TheMan]

You got owned son. Move on.
Now you just went full retard:oldlol:

[TheMan]

:facepalm

Jordan had 4 years in the 80's to make the finals..
and going up against 3 of the greatest teams in NBA history ( 80's Celtics, Pistons and Lakers) without so much as one All Star teammate.

These guys don't understand context:rolleyes:

[tgan3]

[QUOTE=K

[Soundwave]

Why don't you ask Shaq himself? Or LeBron? Or Kobe? Or Magic?

http://nesn.com/2010/11/michael-jordan-larry-bird-top-shaquille-oneals-list-of-favorite-nba-players/

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/08/21/lebron-says-three-greatest-nba-players-jordan-dr-j-bird-video/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUwitHvclwc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wcr3PR3AQw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJo5e6sxUz4

All say he's the greatest. But of course some 15-year-old on a message board who probably can't even make his high school basketball team knows better :lol

People who've actually played basketball understand the mental side of the game is harder to master than the physical side of it. That's why he gets pretty much universal respect from the other greats.

[The Choken One]

Agreed.

KAJ = GOAT imo. Jordan is second, though.

[CavaliersFTW]

Lets begin with the 2004 Pistons, the best defense in modern NBA History.
Shaq: 26.6 PPG 10.8 RPG 63.1% shooting Top WS in the series

You mean against 6-7 w/o shoes Ben Wallace? So when Shaq plays against a 6-7 center who plays good defense it is considered great competition but when Wilt plays against 6-9 and 5/8ths w/o shoes Bill Russell who is the greatest defensive player in NBA history he's playing against "weak/undersized" competition? :oldlol:

[gts]

Ben Wallace: 6-7 w/o shoesSilly reply, Wallace wore shoes when he played, as did Shaq

2001-02 NBA Defensive Player of the Year
2002-03 NBA Defensive Player of the Year
2004-05 NBA Defensive Player of the Year
2005-06 NBA Defensive Player of the Year

2001-02 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2001-02 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2002-03 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2002-03 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2003-04 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2003-04 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2004-05 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2004-05 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
2005-06 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2005-06 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
2006-07 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)

Defensive Rating
1999-00 NBA 96.3 (8)
2000-01 NBA 94.0 (5)
2001-02 NBA 92.9 (1)
2002-03 NBA 90.0 (1)
2003-04 NBA 87.5 (1)
2004-05 NBA 94.0 (3)
2005-06 NBA 95.2 (3)
2006-07 NBA 94.8 (2)
Career NBA 95.8 (5)

Edit; Nevermind, didn't realize you were trying to turn this into another lets salvage Wilt's reputation thread

[fpliii]

Silly reply, Wallace wore shoes when he played, as did Shaq

Right, but listed heights aren't accurate or consistent, while heights without shoes are. Besides, if you feel the height in shoes are accurate, then what's your issue with height without shoes? The # of inches difference should be the same, no?

[CavaliersFTW]

Silly reply, Wallace wore shoes when he played, as did Shaq
So did "6-9" Bill Russell, who was 6-9 and 5/8ths w/o shoes... I'm pointing out that Ben Wallace is a lot shorter than his list height. He didn't wear 2 inch thick shoes either, he wasn't 6-9 even with his shoes on.

[gts]

Right, but listed heights aren't accurate or consistent, while heights without shoes are. Besides, if you feel the height in shoes are accurate, then what's your issue with height without shoes? The # of inches difference should be the same, no?

That's actually not my point. He was trying to downgrade Shaq via Wallace because of Wallace's height. The person he responded to made no mention of height whatsoever yet his response was to turn it into a height discussion instead of actually debating the posters argument that Ben Wallace is a very good defender.

Typical bait and switch move. I can't discuss the topic on it's merit so I'll just change the topic :lol

Now he's off on Bill Russell and how it relates to Wilt tangent

[deja vu]

MJ impacted the game more than Shaq, If Shaq is more dominate then MJ, then how did Shaq only make the finals ONE time during the 90's when MJ was playing?

And its not like Shaq didn't have help.

If big men impact the game so much more than wings, then tell me, in a era that produced some of the greatest big men of all time (Shaq, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Hakeem) then why did none of these guys win rings when MJ was playing?

Why is it always an acceptable excuse for the ringless Malone & Barkley to say "oh they played in the Jordan era"
This. Bigs get overrated all the time. The 90s was the best center era yet only Hakeem and Robinson won titles. Hakeem did it when MJ was retired and Robinson got it when Duncan joined him.

[secund2nun]

The truth is that the best big men ever were better than Jordan. Give Hakeem or Shaq a cast that was good enough to win 55 games and reach game 7 of the ECSF with a D-leaguer replacing them and they would own the league.

Hakeem or Shaq + Pippen + Phil Jackson as HC= game over.

The NBA has chosen to overrate wing players and underrate big men because the wing players are more "sexy". Jordan was at least among the best ever, but not the best like people claim he is. In certain cases like Melo, Kobe, or Rose they are complete frauds.

[secund2nun]

This. Bigs get overrated all the time. The 90s was the best center era yet only Hakeem and Robinson won titles. Hakeem did it when MJ was retired and Robinson got it when Duncan joined him.

Bigs get underrated all the time. Bigs ruled the 2000s with Shaq, Duncan, Dirk, and KG.

Robinson had a weak cast. Same with Hakeem. Give Hakeem or Robinson prime Pippen and Phil Jackson as HC and they would win rings.

[LAZERUSS]

MJ clearly was one of the, if not the, greatest "impact" players of all-time. But as has been pointed, a high-scoring MJ couldn't even carry a team to a .500 record, and only went 1-9 in his first ten playoff games. How good were his title teams? He led his 57-25 Bulls to a title in '93, and retired. Replaced by only Toni Kukoc and his 11 ppg, and the legendary Pete Myers, the '94 Bulls went 55-27, and lost a close seventh game to a 56-26 Knicks team, that would lose a close seventh game to the 58-24 Rockets. They were a title-contending team WITHOUT Jordan.

And how about a PRIME Kareem. Only won one ring in the decade of the 70's, the last half of which was the worst title teams in NBA history. Hell, he played on two straight losing teams in the middle of decade.

Hakeem? He was pasted in he first round of the playoffs in over HALF of his career (and I mean destroyed...they were annihilated in most of the rounds.) He won one title when MJ took the year off (and once again, the Bulls were nearly their equal without him), and the second title in a Finals in which his teammates blew away Shaq's (and in fact, Hakeem's teammates had a FAR higher true TS% than what Hakeem had...as did Shaq.)

Shaq played on SIX teams that were SWEPT.

Oscar, with Lucas, wee lucky to play .500, and couldn't make it past the first round.

West and Baylor, averaging 75 ppg in the playoffs...couldn't win. In fact, the two went 0-7 together.

Moses, with Dr. J and quality rosters...one title.

Bird, with HOF-laden lineups his entire career... three rings, and seven times eliminated with HCA. Hell, they were even swept by lessor teams.

Kobe...34-48 one season, and a first round exit in another, when playing without a quality big man. And some of the worst beatings in his last playoff games of each season, of any player in NBA history.

Lebron. Considered a "choker" until he finally won a ring (and then another one), and only after joining up with Wade, Bosh, and talented benchs (with some of the most "clutch performaces of all-time off those benchs.)

And yes, Chamberlain, who was paired up with some of the worst rosters in NBA history, and then even with good one's, watched his teammates blow chunks all over the floor in their biggest games. His name is plastered all over the Record Book...and "only" two rings. Of course, going up against HOF-laden teams like the Celtics of the 60's, and the Knicks of the 70's was a huge contributing factor, as well. But even Russell's vaunted Celtics were demolished in '67 when Wilt was finally paired up with quality teammates, who actually played reasonably well in the post-season. In a series in which Chamberlain just crushed Russell in every facet of the game.

The fact is...one man can't do it all.

[secund2nun]

Im adding Shaq to the 94 Bulls that won 55 games without Jordan. Take note that this is a team that without Shaq took the Knicks to 7 games and lost the series on a controversial call. The Knicks would go on to lose in 7 games to Hakeems Rockets. They were a play away from winning a title.

C- Shaq
F- Horace Grant(28 years old)
F- Pippen
G- Pete Myers
G- BJ Armstrong

Best frontcourt of all-time? Toni Kukoc and Steve Kerr off the bench to provide spacing

vs...2001 Lakers with Jordan instead of Shaq(The team that went 15-1 in the playoffs)

C- Horace Grant(35 years old)
F- Robert Horry
F-Kobe Bryant
G- MJ
G- Derek Fisher

This would be an absolute blood bath. Shaqs Bulls would DESTROY them.

+1

The truth. If Shaq was added to that 55 wins Bulls team they would easily win the title. How people cannot see this is beyond me. Chicago had a really good coach and a really good system in place with really good talent.

[Soundwave]

LOL, Shaq played with tons of super talented players, he never played on a mediocre team outside of his rookie season.

He should have 5-6 rings+ as the no.1 option, he just didn't want it bad enough. The assertion that poor Shaq somehow didn't have enough talent around him is laughable, Stern rigged the freaking '93 draft so the Magic could get another no.1 overall for starters and ever since then his teams have been stacked.

You can't coach desire. Great player, but he left a lot on the table, and his immaturity and his leadership are highly questionable, a lot of his teams folded like a cheap tent a little too often for a great player. Losing is one thing, but Shaq got embarrassed out of the playoffs several times.

Being the older teammate he should've realized the feud with Kobe Bryant would tear apart what had the potential to be the NBA's greatest dynasty, but he just let it escalate even further. Stupid.

I would take Shaq over Wilt and Russell and LeBron, but not Jordan.

Mental toughness, desire, clutch ability cannot be ignored when trying to win championships.

[Marchesk]

+1

The truth. If Shaq was added to that 55 wins Bulls team they would easily win the title. How people cannot see this is beyond me. Chicago had a really good coach and a really good system in place with really good talent.

I guess my only question is to what extent Pippen would replace Jordan in the clutch. Because that's not going to be Shaq.

That Orlando team which beat Chicago when MJ returned was pretty good. I don't know how you say Shaq didn't have a quality team around him. They still got swept in the finals and then the next season against the Bulls. Those early Lakers teams with Shaq had good players. They were favored to make the finals at least one year when the Jazz swept them.

[Marchesk]

I would take Shaq over Wilt and Russell and LeBron, but not Jordan.

It would be a really tough choice. The tempation to take a GOAT big would be hard to resist. But Jordan had that rare kind of competitiveness.

How about this. You get to take Jordan and Russell, let someone else have Magic and Shaq or Lebron and Wilt (just to make Silk happy). I'll take the two greatest winners.

[deja vu]

Shaq was extremely dominant but he couldn't win it all without a great perimeter player like Kobe and Wade. Not to diss Shaq's achievements, because I think his peak was one of the best in history.

I don't think a player like Pippen is good enough to be Shaq's sidekick. He's a good offensive player, but not great. When teams collapse on Shaq late in games, you need someone to step up and hit those shots. I just don't think Pippen is that kind of guy, though he's a beast on defense.

Even if you put Shaq on the '94 Bulls, I still don't think they beat the Rockets. Hakeem always gave Shaq fits.

[DJ Leon Smith]

MJ clearly was one of the, if not the, greatest "impact" players of all-time. But as has been pointed, a high-scoring MJ couldn't even carry a team to a .500 record, and only went 1-9 in his first ten playoff games. How good were his title teams?

The way you've led into this question it seems like a more relevant one to ask would be "how bad were his teams early in his career?"

[Akhenaten]

Shaq aint winning SH*T with Pippen as another poster alluded to, he needed wings who were PROLIFIC scorers to win titles. This is a man who got swept out the playoff MULTIPLE times with 1st team ALL NBA talent.

You clowns cant be serious with SNAQ vs MJ.

An inordinate amount of value is place on what bigs bring to the table, but they're obvious weaknesses are glossed over.


I will take the greatest guard/wing over the greatest guard for one simple reason; A big man's ability to dominate the game on offense is DEPENDENT on his team mates. He has to have guys who space the floor and he has to have the ball DELIVERED to him.

A wing is doesnt have to wait to be fed he can go get his ANYTIME, ANYWHERE.

To put it simply

Wade/Kobe
Jordan
Lebron
Magic
Bird

would obliterate a team of;

SHAQ
WIlt
Kareem
Russell
Ewing/Robinson


in a 7 gm series....OBLITERATE

[b1imtf]

You mean against 6-7 w/o shoes Ben Wallace? So when Shaq plays against a 6-7 center who plays good defense it is considered great competition but when Wilt plays against 6-9 and 5/8ths w/o shoes Bill Russell who is the greatest defensive player in NBA history he's playing against "weak/undersized" competition? :oldlol:
Retard:roll:

[Pointguard]

The 90's had the greatest number of great centers, all very skilled centers, and to be honest, Jordan would have nearly shut them out if his peak coincided. Still he had 7 years of Shaq with some of most productive seasons along with peak Hakeem, Ewing and Robinson. Nothing else needs to be said.

[Akhenaten]

The 90's had the greatest number of great centers, all very skilled centers, and to be honest, Jordan would have nearly shut them out if his peak coincided. Still he had 7 years of Shaq with some of most productive seasons along with peak Hakeem, Ewing and Robinson. Nothing else needs to be said.


ya know?

cats really trying to sit here making these bullcrap arguments
Jordan OWNED, literally OWNED the era with the greatest bigs while having Wennington, Purdue, old azz Cartwright and trash azz Longley

Yall cant be serious

[gts]

ya know?

cats really trying to sit here making these bullcrap arguments
Jordan OWNED, literally OWNED the era with the greatest bigs while having Wennington, Purdue, old azz Cartwright and trash azz Longley

Yall cant be serious

Name them

[aj1987]

Shaq aint winning SH*T with Pippen as another poster alluded to, he needed wings who were PROLIFIC scorers to win titles. This is a man who got swept out the playoff MULTIPLE times with 1st team ALL NBA talent.
Kobe averaged 21 PPG in the '00 title run on 44% with only 4 assists.
Shaq? 31/15/3 on 57%



A wing is doesnt have to wait to be fed he can go get his ANYTIME, ANYWHERE.
To put it simply

Wade/Kobe
Jordan
Lebron
Magic
Bird

would obliterate a team of;

SHAQ
WIlt
Kareem
Russell
Ewing/Robinson


in a 7 gm series....OBLITERATE
LOL! If those guys' jumper is off, the bigs would shit on them. Even if it isn't off, who's defending the bigs? Bird on Ewing/Robinson/Russell? They would eat him alive. Magic/Lebron on Kareem/Wilt/Shaq?

[secund2nun]

I guess my only question is to what extent Pippen would replace Jordan in the clutch. Because that's not going to be Shaq.

That Orlando team which beat Chicago when MJ returned was pretty good. I don't know how you say Shaq didn't have a quality team around him. They still got swept in the finals and then the next season against the Bulls. Those early Lakers teams with Shaq had good players. They were favored to make the finals at least one year when the Jazz swept them.

That Orlando team was not good, especially the team Chicago beat after MJ returned. Penny, who was outrageously overrated even in his prime, was a shell of himself by then. It was a one man show. Take Shaq off of that team and they are a lottery team, certainly a far cry from a 55 win team.

Those early Lakers team did not have much talent either. Kobe was very young. It was mainly Shaq carrying that team. The only reason they were favored was because of Shaq.

[secund2nun]

The 90's had the greatest number of great centers, all very skilled centers, and to be honest, Jordan would have nearly shut them out if his peak coincided. Still he had 7 years of Shaq with some of most productive seasons along with peak Hakeem, Ewing and Robinson. Nothing else needs to be said.

Hakeem was a one man show. Ewing was a one man show along with Robinson.

Jordan, on the other hand, had a cast that was good enough to win 55 games and reach game 7 of the ecsf against NY (should have won the series if not for a bad call) WITHOUT HIM.

[Marchesk]

Those early Lakers team did not have much talent either. Kobe was very young. It was mainly Shaq carrying that team. The only reason they were favored was because of Shaq.

Eddie Jones and Nick Van Exel? They won 53 games the year before Shaq arrived and then won 56, 61, and were 31-19 in the strike season.

The 1995-96 Magic team won 60 games. Shaq had Hardaway, Dennis Scott and Nick Anderson at 21.7, 17.5 and 14.7 ppg. Don't act like he didn't have any support.

Over those four seasons, 1 on Orlando and 3 on LA where his teams were winning 56+ games a season, they got swept three times and were ousted 4-1 the other time.

Maybe it's just not having Phil? I don't know. I'm not seeing that Shaq matters more to winning than MJ in this picture.

I do know that Shaq won titles with two very good SGs. Kobe was averaging 22.5, 28.5 and 25.2 as Shaq's second option. That's a pretty good scoring second option.

I'm not downplaying how impactful Shaq was. But we're comparing him to MJ, and I'm not buying that's he's more valuable to winning titles.

[Soundwave]

Eddie Jones and Nick Van Exel? They won 53 games the year before Shaq arrived and then won 56, 61, and were 31-19 in the strike season.

The 1995-96 Magic team won 60 games. Shaq had Hardaway, Dennis Scott and Nick Anderson at 21.7, 17.5 and 14.7 ppg. Don't act like he didn't have any support.

Over those four seasons, 1 on Orlando and 3 on LA where his teams were winning 56+ games a season, they got swept three times and were ousted 4-1 the other time.

Maybe it's just not having Phil? I don't know. I'm not seeing that Shaq matters more to winning than MJ in this picture.

I do know that Shaq won titles with two very good SGs. Kobe was averaging 22.5, 28.5 and 25.2 as Shaq's second option. That's a pretty good scoring second option.

I'm not downplaying how impactful Shaq was. But we're comparing him to MJ, and I'm not buying that's he's more valuable to winning titles.

Yes, the Lakers were already becoming a young, exciting team before Shaq got there. Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel, Elden Campbell, Cedric Ceballos were bringing back people to the Forum, getting Shaq just sealed it.

And Orlando had tons of scoring options, Nick Anderson and Dennis Scott could go for 20+ any given night on top of Orlando, you're absolutely right.

Absolute bullsh*t that he didn't have talent, he's had all the talent in the world from basically his second seasons onwards when Stern rigged the draft for the Magic and never would have left for LA unless he knew he was going to land himself into another good situation with a solid supporting cast.

[Dro]

Yes absolutely. I HATE the whole "bigs impact the game more than guards" argument because it's not supported by any evidence.

Why does no big have better playoff numbers, performances and consistency that Jordan does?

Why does no big rank over him in objective metrics?

Why didn't any big lift his team to higher heights than Jordan did since their so much more impactful?

If you say guards can't impact the game defensively like bigs I agree with that, but I counter that with saying bigs can't impact the game offensively like Jordan or Magic.

I wonder if you guys would take Patrick Ewing over Jordan just because he was 7 feet. :rolleyes:
:applause:

[fpliii]

Very likely not, but if anyone's close to being the exception, it's probably MJ.

[Unbiased_one]

I cannot believe that people seriously think that prime Jordan affected the game more than prime shaq....

[riseagainst]

Young X already owned this thread.

:applause: :applause: