Just hit me that Spur were on the short end of so many basketball miracles

[AintNoSunshine]

Was just watching Tmac's 13 in 45sec, and when I saw Duncan's face, I was like um where have I seen this face expression before?

then I remember there's Ray Allen's 3

then there's Fisher's .4

Some of the most memorable moments in basketball, did I miss any?

[iamgine]

They also created some miracles.

Tony Parker's last second shot for example.

[Young X]

Chokers.

[kamil]

Chokers.

Uh.... they have won a good number of CHAMPIONSHIPS in the last 10+ years.

[Young X]

^Still chokers.

[Legends66NBA7]

And despite all their shortcomings, they have been the most consistently successful franchise in all major (NBA, MLB, NFL, NHL) North American sports.

EDIT - I should say from the start of the Duncan era.

[deja vu]

Chokers.
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/520/981/86145331_crop_650x440.jpg

[KG215]

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/520/981/86145331_crop_650x440.jpg
Don't know why I'm just now figuring this out, but seeing this picture just made me realize Duncan was one rebound or one missed FT away from winning a championship and Finals MVP 14 years apart, which I think would've matched Kareem. But Duncan could've had the rare distinction of saying he won a championship and Finals MVP in 3 different decades.

[LAZERUSS]

Was just watching Tmac's 13 in 45sec, and when I saw Duncan's face, I was like um where have I seen this face expression before?

then I remember there's Ray Allen's 3

then there's Fisher's .4

Some of the most memorable moments in basketball, did I miss any?

Of course, no one was more surprised to hit the go-ahead shot before Fisher's "mirale" than Duncan, who threw up a prayer while being heavily-defended by Shaq (who came within a finger-nail of blockin it) from 20 feet out, all while falling down. BTW, the Lakers won that series, 4-2.

[Horatio33]

Ginobili fouling Dirk with the Spurs up 3 for the and 1. Spurs came from 3-1 down in that series and 20 points down in game 7 and Manu blew it.

[KyleKong]

Chokers.


http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/520/981/86145331_crop_650x440.jpg

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-21703-Tim-Duncan-Deal-With-It-gif-gbjX.gif

[KyleKong]

Ginobili fouling Dirk with the Spurs up 3 for the and 1. Spurs came from 3-1 down in that series and 20 points down in game 7 and Manu blew it.

Could you imagine if LeBron or Kobe did that?

[Eric Cartman]

Even with those 4 titles they are serious underachievers.

[KyleKong]

Even with those 4 titles they are serious underachievers.

In what respect? Let's look at the era's of franchise players during the tenure of their careers with their franchise team.

Jordan Era Bulls - 6

Kareem/Magic Era Lakers - 5

Duncan Era Spurs - 4

Bird Era Celtics - 3

Shaq Era Lakers - 3

Kobe Era Lakers - 2

LeBron Era Heat - 2

Zeke Era Pistons - 2

Allen/Pierce/KG Era Celtics - 1

The Spurs era with Duncan is right up there, man.

[DMAVS41]

In what respect? Let's look at the era's of franchise players during the tenure of their careers with their franchise team.

Jordan Era Bulls - 6

Kareem/Magic Era Lakers - 5

Duncan Era Spurs - 4

Bird Era Celtics - 3

Shaq Era Lakers - 3

Kobe Era Lakers - 2

LeBron Era Heat - 2

Zeke Era Pistons - 2

Allen/Pierce/KG Era Celtics - 1

The Spurs era with Duncan is right up there, man.

Luck matters. In 06.... Manu fouled Dirk to send the game 7 to OT. He doesn't do that and they are huge favorites to win the title. If Fisher doesn't make the shot... Who knows. If Manu or Leonard make 1 ft in game 6... Title.

Spurs were literally 2 plays from 6 titles

[KG215]

Even with those 4 titles they are serious underachievers.
True. There's really no other way to label 4 championships and 5 Finals appearances in 14 years as anything but "underachieving".

[Pursuer]

Luck matters. In 06.... Manu fouled Dirk to send the game 7 to OT. He doesn't do that and they are huge favorites to win the title. If Fisher doesn't make the shot... Who knows. If Manu or Leonard make 1 ft in game 6... Title.

Spurs were literally 2 plays from 6 titles

No they weren't. Dallas series was conference semi-finals. Don't just assume they roll over the remaining opposition, if Dallas couldn't.

[Young X]

Ginobili fouling Dirk with the Spurs up 3 for the and 1. Spurs came from 3-1 down in that series and 20 points down in game 7 and Manu blew it.Don't forget losing to the 8th seeded Grizzlies with homecourt advantage.

... or choking away TWO 2-0 leads with homecourt advantage

... or failing to repeat because they (finally) actually faced good teams the next year (lol @ the Nets)

... or choking away a title while being up 5 with 30 seconds left

... or losing to the 50 win Mavs with homecourt advantage then getting swept the next year

... or missing 3 foot layups to tie game 7's

... or missing crucial FT's in crunchtime

Whenever they actually face good teams (rarely) they always fold. (Am I supposed to be impressed with them beating 45 win east teams in the finals? lol)

[Pursuer]

Don't forget losing to the 8th seeded Grizzlies with homecourt advantage.

... or choking away TWO 2-0 leads with homecourt advantage

... or failing to repeat because they (finally) actually faced good teams the next year (lol @ the Nets)

... or choking away a title while being up 5 with 30 seconds left

... or losing to the 50 win Mavs with homecourt advantage then getting swept the next year

... or missing 3 foot layups to tie game 7's

... or missing crucial FT's in crunchtime

Whenever they actually face good teams (rarely) they always fold. (Am I supposed to be impressed with them beating 45 win east teams in the finals? lol)


There's some truth to it. The best team they beat was '05 Pistons. That's why I thought that '05 Spurs were their best version.

[DMAVS41]

No they weren't. Dallas series was conference semi-finals. Don't just assume they roll over the remaining opposition, if Dallas couldn't.

They are for sure beating Suns ans match up much better against Heat.

[DMAVS41]

Don't forget losing to the 8th seeded Grizzlies with homecourt advantage.

... or choking away TWO 2-0 leads with homecourt advantage

... or failing to repeat because they (finally) actually faced good teams the next year (lol @ the Nets)

... or choking away a title while being up 5 with 30 seconds left

... or losing to the 50 win Mavs with homecourt advantage then getting swept the next year

... or missing 3 foot layups to tie game 7's

... or missing crucial FT's in crunchtime

Whenever they actually face good teams (rarely) they always fold. (Am I supposed to be impressed with them beating 45 win east teams in the finals? lol)

It's called not having overwhelming talent like other dynasties.... Actually makes the 16 year run more impressive in my opinion.

[Young X]

^ Yeah, but they were still facing teams worse than them.

Other than the Pistons, when have the Spurs ever beat a team that was on their level or better? Never.

[The_Yearning]

No they weren't. Dallas series was conference semi-finals. Don't just assume they roll over the remaining opposition, if Dallas couldn't.

Dallas rolled on Phoenix. Then they got cheated by the refs against Miami. Spurs would have cruised that Miami team.

[Young X]

The '11 Mavs, '06 Heat both had more impressive runs than the Spurs ever did. They actually beat good teams instead of beating up on injury/suspension riddled teams and then choking when finally facing teams on their level like the Spurs did.

[G-train]

The fact they have any titles is a miracle.
As getting Duncan was a miracle.

[kenny817]

No they weren't. Dallas series was conference semi-finals. Don't just assume they roll over the remaining opposition, if Dallas couldn't.

LMAO the Suns??? '06 Spurs would have swept them

Luckily Dirk is a GAWD so we didn't get to see it

[deja vu]

ISH, where winning 4 titles in less than a decade is "underachieving." :roll: :roll: :roll:

[deja vu]

^ Yeah, but they were still facing teams worse than them.

Other than the Pistons, when have the Spurs ever beat a team that was on their level or better? Never.
They beat the 3-peat Lakers, the Nash-led Suns and the Pistons.

[Young X]

They beat the 3-peat Lakers, the Nash-led Suns and the Pistons.That Laker team was worse than the Spurs. They were literally a two man team. The 2007 Suns with Amare's suspension weren't better than the Spurs either.

Like I said, other than the '05 Pistons, they've never beaten a team on their level or better.

They could beat:

a Dirk-less Mavs team

an Amare-less Suns team

a 50 win Cavs team in the finals

a 49 win Nets team in the finals

a 45 win, 8th seeded Knicks team in the finals (lol)


But choked when they finally faced teams as good or better than them. Point blank.

[deja vu]

That Laker team was worse than the Spurs. They were literally a two man team, the 2007 Suns with Amare's suspension weren't better than the Spurs either.

Like I said, other than the '05 Pistons, they've never beaten a team on their level or better.

They could beat:

a Dirk-less Mavs team

an Amare-less Suns team

a 50 win Cavs team in the finals

a 49 win Nets team in the finals

a 45 win, 8th seeded Knicks team in the finals (lol)


But choked when they finally faced teams as good or better than them. Point blank.
LOL. 2003 Spurs were basically a one-man team. Duncan had rookie Ginobili and sophomore Parker as 2nd and 3rd options. Still beat the Shaq and Kobe duo.

In 2007, they beat the 61-21 Suns. Amare was suspended for just one game. Not the Spurs' fault that Amare broke NBA rules. :lol

[thabisyo]

ISH, where winning 4 titles in less than a decade is "underachieving." :roll: :roll: :roll:

So what? if you winning less with such a packed team? The spurs were absolutely packed. The only way to stop them was through shaq, the rest of the time, they under achieved

[deja vu]

So what? if you winning less with such a packed team? The spurs were absolutely packed. The only way to stop them was through shaq, the rest of the time, they under achieved
How the heck are the Spurs packed? It's just Duncan and two borderline All-Stars. :roll:

Lakers, Celtics and Heat were way more stacked than the Spurs.

[Young X]

LOL. 2003 Spurs were basically a one-man team. Duncan had rookie Ginobili and sophomore Parker as 2nd and 3rd options. Still beat the Shaq and Kobe duo.

In 2007, they beat the 61-21 Suns. Amare was suspended for just one game. Not the Spurs' fault that Amare broke NBA rules. :lolAnd they were still a better team than the Lakers were, won 10 more games and had homecourt advantage. Stoudamire getting suspended = Suns not on Spurs level, which is my point. When they beat the Suns who did they face next? Two 50 win teams. :roll:

But the rare times they faced teams on their level (OKC, Miami) they choked in embarassing fashion.

[thabisyo]

How the heck are the Spurs packed? It's just Duncan and two borderline All-Stars. :roll:

Lakers, Celtics and Heat were way more stacked than the Spurs.

That team has two former FMVP with gold medalist. That team was stacked, it is just they are old. Except the 2005 pistons, they never beat a good team in the finals

[deja vu]

And they were still a better team than the Lakers were, won 10 more games and had homecourt advantage. Stoudamire getting suspended = Suns not on Spurs level, which is my point. When they beat the Suns who did they face next? Two 50 win teams. :roll:

But the rare times they faced teams on their level (OKC, Miami) they choked in embarassing fashion.
Duncan was beasting in 2003. On paper, Lakers were better than the Spurs but that didn't matter because Duncan was beasting. The West during that time had 6 50+ win teams, and still the Spurs prevailed.

Suns were favored to win it all in 2007 after the 67-15 Mavs choked in the 1st round. They had a 61-21 record and had 2-time MVP Nash. So Amare got suspended? Tough luck, those things happen and Phoenix got their just desserts. :lol

So shall we diminish the 2002 title too because the Lakers beat the 52-30 Nets in the finals? :roll:

2012 and 2013, Spurs were old and most people didn't give them a chance to win it all (before the season started).

[deja vu]

That team has two former FMVP with gold medalist. That team was stacked, it is just they are old.
Parker and Ginobili were borderline All-Stars. They make the All-Star team some years, some years they don't.

But hey, they're stacked just like the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, Garnett/Pierce/Allen Celtics, and LeBron/Wade/Bosh Heat. :roll:


Except the 2005 pistons, they never beat a good team in the finals
Western Conference Finals were the real Finals in 2002, 2003 and 2007. :lol Maybe 2000 and 2001 also. East was piss poor during those times.

[SpurrDurr]

That team has two former FMVP with gold medalist. That team was stacked, it is just they are old. Except the 2005 pistons, they never beat a good team in the finals

Main difference is that Duncan turned a small market team into a powerhouse for over 14 years while Lebron failed doing the same and bailed.

[deja vu]

In what respect? Let's look at the era's of franchise players during the tenure of their careers with their franchise team.

Jordan Era Bulls - 6

Kareem/Magic Era Lakers - 5

Duncan Era Spurs - 4

Bird Era Celtics - 3

Shaq Era Lakers - 3

Kobe Era Lakers - 2

LeBron Era Heat - 2

Zeke Era Pistons - 2

Allen/Pierce/KG Era Celtics - 1

The Spurs era with Duncan is right up there, man.
LOL, according to some posters' logic, Bird's Celtics and Shaq's Lakers are underachievers. :roll:

80's Celtics were way more stacked than the Spurs yet won only 3 titles. :lol Underachievers.

[AintNoSunshine]

Even with those 4 titles they are serious underachievers.


:facepalm

[TheMilkyBarKid]

Main difference is that Duncan turned a small market team into a powerhouse for over 14 years while Lebron failed doing the same and bailed.
Because lebron had a coach as good as pop, a teammate as good as david Robinson and the cavs drafted as well as the spurs right?

[DMAVS41]

That Laker team was worse than the Spurs. They were literally a two man team. The 2007 Suns with Amare's suspension weren't better than the Spurs either.

Like I said, other than the '05 Pistons, they've never beaten a team on their level or better.

They could beat:

a Dirk-less Mavs team

an Amare-less Suns team

a 50 win Cavs team in the finals

a 49 win Nets team in the finals

a 45 win, 8th seeded Knicks team in the finals (lol)


But choked when they finally faced teams as good or better than them. Point blank.

Yea, but the Spurs amount of talent they actually had is over-rated. The Spurs were actually "stacked" or "packed"...I guess that is the new word now...from roughly 05 through 07. That's honestly about it.

And if not for a legendary Dirk road game 7...and a stupid Manu foul...they likely 3 peat.

But really other than 05 through 07...they didn't have the kind of overwhelming talent to 3 peat. You could throw 08 in there when healthy, but Manu was hurt most of the year and was noticeably hobbled in the WCF.

But I still don't see the issue.

From 03 through 07...they won 3 titles. That is 3 titles in 5 years. Made the WCF 4 times in 6 years from 03 through 08.

What more is expected from a small market team on a limited pay roll with only 1 superstar/ all nba player for nearly every year?

Just 4 titles, 5 finals appearances, a NBA record 14 straight seasons over 50 wins, and oh yea...the best win percentage of the last 16 years.

The Patriots in the NFL are a great comparison. Duncan/Brady...surrounded by good, but not overwhelmingly great talent. A genius coach...

It's hard to dominate in the playoffs if you only have 1 dominant player. Been that way throughout NBA history and I have no idea why people can't figure it out.

[TimmyDuncan]

Spurs miracles :
- 99' Sean Elliott memorial day miracle
- 05' Big shot Rob heroics
- 13' Parker's game 1 game winner

They won aginst team as good as them : 05' Piston, 08' Hornets, 03' Lakers

They could have won 6 or 7 titles as they could have won 1 or 2.

[guy]

Luck matters. In 06.... Manu fouled Dirk to send the game 7 to OT. He doesn't do that and they are huge favorites to win the title. If Fisher doesn't make the shot... Who knows. If Manu or Leonard make 1 ft in game 6... Title.

Spurs were literally 2 plays from 6 titles

Thats a huge exaggeration. In 04, the Spurs could've easily still lost to the Pistons, and thats if they get past the Twolves, which isn't a given, and its not even a given that they would've still beat the Lakers who could've still won game 6 and forced a game 7 where anything can happen. In 06, while I'm sure the Spurs would've beat the Suns, beating the Heat was no guarantee. In 13 though, they clearly were 1 play away from a title.

[SCdac]

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/adrumaddict/Spurs1997FirstPickinDraft-1.jpg

Spurs have been plenty lucky :cheers:

[Marchesk]

Luck matters. In 06.... Manu fouled Dirk to send the game 7 to OT. He doesn't do that and they are huge favorites to win the title. If Fisher doesn't make the shot... Who knows. If Manu or Leonard make 1 ft in game 6... Title.

Spurs were literally 2 plays from 6 titles

Where would Duncan be getting ranked with 6 titles?

[Young X]

Yea, but the Spurs amount of talent they actually had is over-rated. The Spurs were actually "stacked" or "packed"...I guess that is the new word now...from roughly 05 through 07. That's honestly about it.Yeah, but they were still a better overall team than the teams they were facing and were beating teams worse or less "stacked" than them. Look at their 2007 run, they beat a 45 win Grizzlies team, a Suns team with their 2nd best player suspended, a 50 win Jazz team and a 50 win Cavs team. None of those teams are comparable to the Spurs. Same thing with their 2003 run.

When they finally face teams comparable to them they choke. Frauds.

[SpurrDurr]

Yeah, but they were still a better overall team than the teams they were facing and were beating teams worse or less "stacked" than them. Look at their 2007 run, they beat a 45 win Grizzlies team, a Suns team with their 2nd best player suspended, a 50 win Jazz team and a 50 win Cavs team. None of those teams are comparable to the Spurs. Same thing with their 2003 run.

When they finally face teams comparable to them they choke. Frauds.

You clearly are a butthurt fan, did Timmy abuse of your team?

[deja vu]

I don't know why you try to diminish the Spurs titles. Sure, they did beat up some weaker teams in the playoffs, but so did a lot of championship teams.

We're not going to diminish the early '00s Lakers or the current Heat titles because they were far superior to the rest of the league. Come to think of it, the 2013 Heat champs faced only one 50+ win team in the playoffs, so shall we diminish that accomplishment too?

[nightprowler10]

Even with those 4 titles they are serious underachievers.
I would take this as a compliment if I was a Spurs fan.

[Young X]

All I'm saying is... Why couldn't they beat teams on their level? And why do they continue to choke against those teams?

[SCdac]

those unlucky bastards!

http://blacksportsonline.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/nba_g_horry_duncan_300.jpg

[Crown&Coke]

they were lucky when it counted.

They got the #1 overall pick two different times and had a pair of dudes available that changed the landscape of their team. 2x

I think they have done alright considering.

They got super lucky JKidd picked Jersey that one time too. Otherwise they probably give up on Parker, who got some hardware a couple years later

[embersyc]

Spurs are also lucky that Sheed left Robert ****ing Horry wide ****ing open.

Sheed is my favorite player, but still sour about that one.

[rmt]

Thats a huge exaggeration. In 04, the Spurs could've easily still lost to the Pistons, and thats if they get past the Twolves, which isn't a given, and its not even a given that they would've still beat the Lakers who could've still won game 6 and forced a game 7 where anything can happen. In 06, while I'm sure the Spurs would've beat the Suns, beating the Heat was no guarantee. In 13 though, they clearly were 1 play away from a title.

I think they'd have had a great chance against the 06 Heat. Bowen to put on Wade. Rasho, Nazr and Duncan to defend Shaq. Horry for Antoine Walker. Meanwhile, who's to defend Manu (I guess Posey) but an old Payton/Williams guarding Parker? They'd also have trouble guarding Spurs' excellent 3pt shooters (Bowen, Barry, Manu, Horry, Finley).

YoungX, no one ever knocks the Lakers for beating the 02 Nets - yet they knock the Spurs for beating an older, more experienced 03 Nets. Likewise, Spurs beat the 05 Pistons which a year earlier (without McDyess) had beaten the 04 Lakers. Yet you don't hear this put-down of the Lakers' opponents.

[kNicKz]

So what? if you winning less with such a packed team? The spurs were absolutely packed. The only way to stop them was through shaq, the rest of the time, they under achieved

2011 heat

[ILLsmak]

Luck matters. In 06.... Manu fouled Dirk to send the game 7 to OT. He doesn't do that and they are huge favorites to win the title. If Fisher doesn't make the shot... Who knows. If Manu or Leonard make 1 ft in game 6... Title.

Spurs were literally 2 plays from 6 titles

yup and it's not even to do with miracles as much as mistakes. It's not fair to call them chokers, but when you make one or more huge mistakes at the end of a big game, you have to say those mistakes cost you.

The Spurs did some crazy shit but I don't think it should overshadow how terribly they played at times in the Finals this year. Manu was throwing the game on purpose as far as I'm concerned.

-Smak

[embersyc]

Likewise, Spurs beat the 05 Pistons which a year earlier (without McDyess) had beaten the 04 Lakers.

Whoa, 04 Pistons didn't have Dyess true, but that team had such a stacked bench:

Mehmet Okur
Mike James
Lindsey Hunter
Corliss Williamson
Elden Campbell

to name a few.

[Young X]

YoungX, no one ever knocks the Lakers for beating the 02 Nets - yet they knock the Spurs for beating an older, more experienced 03 Nets. Likewise, Spurs beat the 05 Pistons which a year earlier (without McDyess) had beaten the 04 Lakers. Yet you don't hear this put-down of the Lakers' opponents.Yeah, but the Lakers that same year beat two teams comparable to them in the previous rounds without homecourt advantage. Unlike the Spurs, they proved year in and year out they can beat the elite teams in the NBA instead of choking against them. That's also why they repeated and the Spurs didn't.

That's why I respect the '05 Spurs run way more than their other runs. That was the only year they beat a team on their level instead of choking/underperforming against them like they usually do.

[tpols]

All I'm saying is... Why couldn't they beat teams on their level? And why do they continue to choke against those teams?
Because they were never dominant despite their very impressive 4 ring count.

Not a single repeat
Not even ever two finals in a row...


They literally snatched up titles at weak points between other more dominant teams.. Kobe Shaq destroy them 3 in a row.. They catch Lakers as they're exiting their prime.. Win a few then take a backseat to LA and Okc for multiple years.

The Spurs most impressive playoff run, was 2013 because of very high competition and better performances. Not any of the ones they won rings in. :oldlol:

[rmt]

Because they were never dominant despite their very impressive 4 ring count.

Not a single repeat
Not even ever two finals in a row...


They literally snatched up titles at weak points between other more dominant teams.. Kobe Shaq destroy them 3 in a row.. They catch Lakers as they're exiting their prime.. Win a few then take a backseat to LA and Okc for multiple years.

The Spurs most impressive playoff run, was 2013 because of very high competition and better performances. Not any of the ones they won rings in. :oldlol:

Tpols, does any team have control over which team they play? Or do they play whoever is in front of them? You act as if they could have chosen to play tougher competition in their championship years.

And when Spurs beat them in 03, Lakers are "exiting their prime" but they reach the Finals vs Pistons the next year. C'mon which is it?

[tpols]

Tpols, does any team have control over which team they play? Or do they play whoever is in front of them? You act as if they could have chosen to play tougher competition in their championship years.

And when Spurs beat them in 03, Lakers are "exiting their prime" but they reach the Finals vs Pistons the next year. C'mon which is it?
I'm just saying.. The Spurs this past year and playoffs looked better and on a mission more an any of their other teams. Danny Green a role player shattered the 3 pt record.. Parker was great throughout the majority of the playoffs, Duncan was quarterbacking the d shutting down memphis and Miami bigs.. That 3pt barrage perimeter attack + great fundamental defense was the best combo of offense/defense I've ever seen from them..

Plus they should have won against the best team they ever faced in the finals

[rmt]

I'm just saying.. The Spurs this past year and playoffs looked better and on a mission more an any of their other teams. Danny Green a role player shattered the 3 pt record.. Parker was great throughout the majority of the playoffs, Duncan was quarterbacking the d shutting down memphis and Miami bigs.. That 3pt barrage perimeter attack + great fundamental defense was the best combo of offense/defense I've ever seen from them..

Plus they should have won against the best team they ever faced in the finals

All that means is that they over-achieved. Danny Green had no business breaking the 3pt record, Leonard and Duncan played above expected. If not for Parker's miracle shot, they wouldn't have had the game lead cushion they had for the series. And with Parker's subsequent injury and ineffectiveness after, it really should not have 7 games if not for Lebron's reluctance to shoot the ball. They gave him space the whole series long and it wasn't till game 7 that he decided to shoot. I never thought they'd win the series because all it took for them to win was for him to step up and shoot, and Pop didn't do them any favors by sticking with Manu instead of Diaw.

No way this team looked better than the Spurs during 05-07 when the the big 3 were closest to their primes and they were surrounded with vets like Bowen, Barry and Horry instead of newbies like Green, Leonard and Splitter. Their defense back then was spectacular - they could stop opponents on the other end when they needed to. And back then when anyone was stinking up the joint (like Manu) or if they didn't play defense, Pop sat them. Not so now, when defensive sieves like Neal get significant playing time.