Is Dirk in the same tier as Duncan?

[MastaKilla]

:confusedshrug:

It got interesting after 2011, before that I think majority of people would have said he's a great player but not on Duncan's level...what about now?

[Jameerthefear]

nah.

[Heavincent]

No.

[thabisyo]

:confusedshrug:

It got interesting after 2011, before that I think majority of people would have said he's a great player but not on Duncan's level...what about now?

:lol

Ill have Barkley over that clown... He was lucky in 2011. To put him with Duncan is just disrespectful now inspite of what Duncan did in the finals

[Real Men Wear Green]

No. TD has 4 rings to Nowitzki's one and 2 MVPs to Nowitzki's one. Nowitzki may have a decent edge as a scorer but Duncan annihilates him defensively. There were a few recent years when Nowitzki was better but for most of their careers Duncan has had the edge, including this year's mild resurgence.

[kenny817]

Dirk = one man show, great ownership

Duncan = Ginobili, Parker, Pop, great ownership

[iamgine]

:confusedshrug:

It got interesting after 2011, before that I think majority of people would have said he's a great player but not on Duncan's level...what about now?
Dirk has gotten to (or even exceed) Duncan's level in short burst but overall not really.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Dirk = one man show, great ownership

Duncan = Ginobili, Parker, Pop, great ownership
For a number of years Nowitzki played with Steve Nash and Michael Finley. Two All-Star, with Nash winning MVPs later in his career. Let's not act like he hasn't had help.

[SilkkTheShocker]

It's closer than people want to believe. Dirk led a team picked to lose every round to a title. Chandler, Terry, Old Kidd, barea, etc .... Does that really sound like a stacked team? Don't get me wrong, they put the work in to win that title. We already know TD can win a title with minimal help (03). But how many teams did Dirk play on where people would say they were stacked? Maybe the 2003 and 2004 teams. But nothing really else sticks out. The first year Dirk played with a legit center they won a title.

[Real Men Wear Green]

It's closer than people want to believe. Dirk led a team picked to lose every round to a title. Chandler, Terry, Old Kidd, barea, etc .... Does that really sound like a stacked team? Don't get me wrong, they put the work in to win that title. We already know TD can win a title with minimal help (03). But how many teams did Dirk play on where people would say they were stacked? Maybe the 2003 and 2004 teams. But nothing really else sticks out. The first year Dirk played with a legit center they won a title.
Nowitzki had a great run that year. But it was only one year.

[deja vu]

For a number of years Nowitzki played with Steve Nash and Michael Finley. Two All-Star, with Nash winning MVPs later in his career. Let's not act like he hasn't had help.
This. Dirk didn't play only in 2011. :roll:

[IGOTGAME]

Duncan IMO is on the tier with Bird and Magic....I feel like he is severely underrated, especially as a defender.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Nowitzki had a great run that year. But it was only one year.
It's only one year. But I don't think Duncan was much better than Dirk really. TD has the accolades and was better in his prime. But when it comes to overall talent they aren't far off. TD was always in a better situation.

[iamgine]

It's only one year. But I don't think Duncan was much better than Dirk really. TD has the accolades and was better in his prime. But when it comes to overall talent they aren't far off. TD was always in a better situation.
I don't think anyone would say they're far off but it's not very close too.

[SilkkTheShocker]

This. Dirk didn't play only in 2011. :roll:
Please, that team was nothing special. They wouldn't have even made the playoffs without Dirk.

[deja vu]

It's closer than people want to believe. Dirk led a team picked to lose every round to a title. Chandler, Terry, Old Kidd, barea, etc .... Does that really sound like a stacked team? Don't get me wrong, they put the work in to win that title. We already know TD can win a title with minimal help (03). But how many teams did Dirk play on where people would say they were stacked? Maybe the 2003 and 2004 teams. But nothing really else sticks out. The first year Dirk played with a legit center they won a title.
Yes, Dirk did lead a surprising team to a title. Big props to him; he played like a man possessed out there. But he had huge choke jobs in his career. He had a 67-15 team and won MVP that year, but lost in the first round to the 8th seeded Golden State.

[dr.hee]

Nowitzki had a great run that year. But it was only one year.

First of all, I'd rate Dirk below Duncan. That being said...the thing with 2011 is that his overall production was pretty much his career postseason average. He was his usual self, so while I'd say his 2011 run gets just as much overrated as the rest of his career gets underrated by a lot of people. Duncan is the most obvious choice if you wanna start a successful franchise with a PF, but after that it's a tossup between a few players, and Dirk is definitely one of them.

[IGOTGAME]

It's only one year. But I don't think Duncan was much better than Dirk really. TD has the accolades and was better in his prime. But when it comes to overall talent they aren't far off. TD was always in a better situation.

It's easier to put Tim Duncan in good situations then Dirk. Dirk is a power forward that gives you zero defensive presence and for the majority of his career had no post game. This made coaches have to adjust their personnel to work around him. With Duncan, he was a plus in every category and could morph into whatever the team needed in any given moment.

[Legends66NBA7]

:confusedshrug:

It got interesting after 2011, before that I think majority of people would have said he's a great player but not on Duncan's level...what about now?

It was a discussion in 2011 between Nowitzki vs Garnett vs Barkley vs K.Malone vs Pettit vs Hayes vs McHale, etc... Duncan wasn't really part of that discussion, as most agreed that he's clearly above Dirk in terms of tiers.

And really, what in the last 2 years had Dirk done to be on Duncan's tier ? Especially, since Duncan's last 2 overall seasons were better than Dirk's.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Yes, Dirk did lead a surprising team to a title. Big props to him; he played like a man possessed out there. But he had huge choke jobs in his career. He had a 67-15 team and won MVP that year, but lost in the first round to the 8th seeded Golden State.

Duncan has a lot of black marks on his r

[Cone]

Nowitzki had a great run that year. But it was only one year.

If youre trying to say dirk has had only one good playoff run, then you are fuxking retarded

Dirk is so underrated its sad. Alot of great things he has done has gone unnoticed...

Arguably the 2nd best pf of all time

[Legends66NBA7]

Yes, Dirk did lead a surprising team to a title. Big props to him; he played like a man possessed out there. But he had huge choke jobs in his career. He had a 67-15 team and won MVP that year, but lost in the first round to the 8th seeded Golden State.

That's only 1 choke job you mentioned.

Which other one's did you have in mind ? I don't recall any other, unless you were referring to the 2005 run too.

[SilkkTheShocker]

If youre trying to say dirk has had only one good playoff run, then you are fuxking retarded
Garnett fans typically try downplay anything Dirk does.

[deja vu]

[QUOTE=SilkkTheShocker]Duncan has a lot of black marks on his r

[AintNoSunshine]

Obvious answer is NO

[ProfessorMurder]

Dirk is one of my favorites, but I think Duncan and KG were better. They're all definitely in the conversation depending on what you value and who you like. It's not like Duncan/KG/Dirk are THAT far apart in terms of skill and talent.

Same with Barkley, Malone, McHale.

[deja vu]

That's only 1 choke job you mentioned.

Which other one's did you have in mind ? I don't recall any other, unless you were referring to the 2005 run too.
2006. They were up 2-0 over the Heat and could have went up 3-0. Dirk missed a free throw in the final seconds that would have sent the game into overtime.

[Cone]

Yes, Dirk did lead a surprising team to a title. Big props to him; he played like a man possessed out there. But he had huge choke jobs in his career. He had a 67-15 team and won MVP that year, but lost in the first round to the 8th seeded Golden State.

One series...

Duncan lost to an 8th seed and had the biggest choke in all of sports this past years finals.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Duncan didn't "choke" as much as Dirk. Yeah, the Spurs did got bounced out of the first round by the Grizzlies and Duncan did miss that layup, but people are willing to give him a pass because he's already old and past his prime. Dirk basically had a team favored to win a title and won MVP, but got bounced out of the first round by an 8th seed. :roll: Man, that's the worst kind of choke job. Your team had a 67-15 record which was one of the best in NBA history, so you're supposed to massacre the 8th seed.

That said, I actually like Dirk and enjoy watching him play. He did redeem himself in 2011 so people forget about his choke jobs.
No point in even debating with someone that is talking out their ass. No offense. But you have no idea what your talking about it.

[SilkkTheShocker]

One series...

Duncan lost to an 8th seed and had the biggest choke in all of sports this past years finals.
Hey man, he still didnt "choke as much as Dirk" :oldlol: I swear, TD gets more excuses and breaks than anyone.

[Young X]

I'm not saying he is, but going by the idiotic "He won with a weak supporting cast!!!" argument, Dirk and the Mavs 2011 run was more impressive than any of the Spurs runs because they actually faced and beat teams on their level instead of beating 50 win teams and choking against teams on their level like the Spurs do every year.

[Cone]

Garnett fans typically try downplay anything Dirk does.


They always do lol. KG is mad overrated on this board

[NumberSix]

The defensive gap is much greater than the offensive gap, so you have to give it to Duncan.

[IGOTGAME]

One series...

Duncan lost to an 8th seed and had the biggest choke in all of sports this past years finals.
Guy is way past his prime. I'm not gonna go at guy for shit that happened after he could have retired.

[deja vu]

I'm not saying he is, but going by the idiotic "He won with a weak supporting cast!!!" argument, Dirk and the Mavs 2011 run was more impressive than any of the Spurs runs because they actually faced and beat teams on their level instead of beating 50 win teams and choking against teams on their level like the Spurs do every year.
You're a retard. :roll:

[Cone]

Hey man, he still didnt "choke as much as Dirk" :oldlol: I swear, TD gets more excuses and breaks than anyone.

:roll:

[deja vu]

One series...

Duncan lost to an 8th seed and had the biggest choke in all of sports this past years finals.
Duncan is already old and past his prime when it happened. When Dirk choked his 67-15 team, he was league MVP.

I love both guys though. No homo. :roll:

[Young X]

Guy is way past his prime. I'm not gonna go at guy for shit that happened after he could have retired.It happens all the time tho, the Spurs always choke when they face teams just as good as them. See: 2004 Lakers, 2002 Lakers, 2006 Mavs, 2009 Mavs, 2012 OKC, 2013 Heat, etc.

[deja vu]

Hey man, he still didnt "choke as much as Dirk" :oldlol: I swear, TD gets more excuses and breaks than anyone.
That's what winning 4 titles do to you. :lol

Now tell me how many times Duncan choked during his prime.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Guy is way past his prime. I'm not gonna go at guy for shit that happened after he could have retired.
So he shouldn't get crap for missing game tying layup in game 7 of the Finals over a player that is 3-4 inches shorter than him? That's is a huge choke IMO. And I know how well he played on the last two games. But that was huge

[IGOTGAME]

So he shouldn't get crap for missing game tying layup in game 7 of the Finals over a player that is 3-4 inches shorter than him? That's is a huge choke IMO. And I know how well he played on the last two games. But that was huge

Nope. The fact that his team was even in that position says enough about him. 2013 heat were a much more talented team....

[Jameerthefear]

So he shouldn't get crap for missing game tying layup in game 7 of the Finals over a player that is 3-4 inches shorter than him? That's is a huge choke IMO. And I know how well he played on the last two games. But that was huge
Okay? That doesn't change this argument overall though, or what he's done in his career.

[dr.hee]

Nope. The fact that his team was even in that position says enough about him. 2013 heat were a much more talented team....

True. But wouldn't the same argument apply to the 2006 Mavs? I mean they didn't suck...but if you saw the roster on paper, did they look like a contender a few freethrows away of leading 3-0 in the finals?

[SilkkTheShocker]

That's what winning 4 titles do to you. :lol

Now tell me how many times Duncan choked during his prime.
Duncan is still arguably the best PF in the league. His fans always want to shield him from any kind of criticism. When he plays amazing we hear how underrated he is and how skill beats athleticism anyday. When his team chokes people hide behind his age. Same shit last year and the year before.

[tpols]

No. TD has 4 rings to Nowitzki's one and 2 MVPs to Nowitzki's one. Nowitzki may have a decent edge as a scorer but Duncan annihilates him defensively. There were a few recent years when Nowitzki was better but for most of their careers Duncan has had the edge, including this year's mild resurgence.
Dirk has a HUGE edge as an offensive player in general. High volume, way way better overall efficiency.. Both can act as pick setters and play off ball to benefit their teammates.. Wouldn't say one is a much better passer than the other.. Both great rebounders(Dirk in the playoffs).. It really comes down to whether you want a dominant offensive player or a dominant defensive one. Dirk has played Duncan dead even in whole series.. He's OUTPLAYED Kevin garnett...

And somehow he isn't close to Duncan's level? Career wise of course not.. But op seems to be asking if he was ever on his level or better as him.. And he was multiple times

[SilkkTheShocker]

Nope. The fact that his team was even in that position says enough about him. 2013 heat were a much more talented team....
I'm sorry, but in my book that is a choke. Kobe has been playing even longer and if he missed that shot, he would have been absolutely cruficied. And I don't even care for the dude, obviously. But there is definitely a double standard with Spurs players. Parker also seems to be immune from criticism.

[Real Men Wear Green]

If youre trying to say dirk has had only one good playoff run, then you are fuxking retardedIf you are literate then you can tell that's not what I wrote.
Arguably the 2nd best pf of all time
I don't fuxk with this kind of stupidity.
Dirk has a HUGE edge as an offensive player in general. High volume, way way better overall efficiency..22.6 ppg vs. 20.2...maybe Nowitzki has an efficiency edge in some advanced shooting metric but Duncan shoots better from the field. So This statement of yours is "way way" off.
Both great rebounders(Dirk in the playoffs).. No. Duncan averages 3 more rebounds, career. Duncan was a great rebounder. Nowitzki's career 8 is a number that makes him a solid rebounder. He is not and never was great on the glass.
It really comes down to whether you want a dominant offensive player or a dominant defensive one.No, It comes down to whether you want an excellent post scorer, All-league defender and great rebounder or a great perimeter scorer, poor-to-average defender and solid rebounder. Your representation of the facts is off-base.
Dirk has played Duncan dead even in whole series.. He's OUTPLAYED Kevin garnett... You're talking about some H2H match-ups and I'm not even sure your statement is accurate (to be fair I do remember Nowitzki getting the better of KG in a series, tho KG still played great)...but I don't care enough to look it up because this discussion is about careers.

And somehow he isn't close to Duncan's level? No, he isn't.

[SCdac]

for the sheer fact that Duncan had an immediate championship-level esque impact puts him in an a higher tier of players to me, especially when counting the rest of his career and career-winning % which continues to put him above.

Dirk is an all-time great player, top-30 easily, but I feel like he didn't have the same overall impact/dominance in his first 4-6 years as Duncan did if we measure their careers side by side. In Duncan's 6th season he was picking up his second Finals MVP on a team similar to Dirk's in 2011. Couple years later he picked up his third Finals MVP. In that span of years (97-05), Spurs were 21-11 against the Mavs when both Duncan/Dirk played (playoffs included).

but yes , Duncan was clear ROTY in 1998 and could hold his own with the best pretty much from day one. Was the 5th rookie ever to be named to an All-Defense team and made All-NBA First team as well (first rookie since Bird). The following season, at 22 years old, in the playoffs he went through KG's team, Shaq's team, and Sheed's team then averaged 27 RPG / 14 RPG / 2 BPG playing 46 minutes a game in the NBA Finals at Madison Square Garden and Alamodome.

Duncan was a monster from the beginning (a scorer, defensive force, great playmaker all in one), albeit a quiet killer who didn't gloat. His rookie and sophomore season were not even his best, yet that version of him would be the best player in the game today (between him and Lebron only).

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/adrumaddict/duncanblockingstockton.jpg

[creepingdeath]

No, but that's not a slight at all. Duncan is a top 7 player of all time, while Dirk cracks the top 20.

[RoseCity07]

I think what Dirk did in 2011 was more impressive than anything Duncan did in any season. Dirk absolutely dominated like Wade did in 2006. He could not be stopped. Duncan is better because he got it done 4 times in the finals. I'd rather have four championships than one.

Dirk in 2011 was just one really special year.

[R.I.P.]

Honestly after watching an NBA stories about Dirk

[IGOTGAME]

[QUOTE=R.I.P.]Honestly after watching an NBA stories about Dirk

[DMAVS41]

People are really forgetting how soft Dirk was earlier in his career...Duncan came in the league ready to win championships.

This is kind of true...kind of not. Duncan was an elite player from day 1...Dirk took until his 4th year to be a legit championship first option in my opinion.

But I don't think Dirk was really ever soft.

In 02 he outplayed KG in a series and then played the 02 Kings very well...averaging 28/13/2 in the 02 playoffs overall on 58% TS

To answer the question.

Hell no. Duncan is a sure fire top 6 or 7 player of all time. Dirk is a top 20 player of all time. They are absolutely on a different tier.

But Dirk isn't a "choker"...Dirk had 1 season truly in his entire playoff career in which that could even be mentioned...the 07 Warriors. That is it. People bringing up 06 have lost their minds...the Mavs exceeded expectations by upsetting the Spurs...and that "choker" had 37/15 in a road game 7 and made the game winning shot and free throw.

I know it doesn't fit the "Dirk choker/soft" narrative, but it's total BS. The Mavs have actually overachieved in the playoffs throughout Dirk's run with multiple upsets. They have one true underachieving run...the 07 year.

And again I ask people to look at the facts:

Dirk/Terry/Howard/Harris/Stackhouse/Diop/George/Croshere...that is what the 07 Mavs were. Judge them on what players they had...not the fact that Dirk was basically perfect in the regular season and added an absurd amount of wins to a team that grossly over-achieved.

They played a team that played a nightmare style and happened to catch fire. A team with:

Baron Davis/Stephen Jackson/Jason Richardson/Matt Barnes/Biedrins/Al Harrington/Monta Ellis/Pietrus

Using that series against as anything more than an anomaly is silly. Blame Dirk for playing like ass, but don't blame him for having a shit coach that lost his mind while playing a team with easily more talent.

Dirk isn't on Duncan's level because Duncan could dominate the game in more ways and happened to not only be a great offensive player, but one of the 10 best defensive players as well. Duncan is in the elite of the elite category reserved for only a handful of players in history. Dirk simply wasn't good enough to ever be in that group.

[mlp]

duncan while great is just lucky that he was drafted by the spurs
for many other teams he would have put up good stats (think garnett) but maybe won 1 title
just look at the performance of the 2004 olympia team led by him
but as it turned out he had more success and on this board this means he was better :cheers:

[boozehound]

Dirk is a mediocre to weak defender. He basically only plays half the game. His outside shot is the only clear thing he does better than timmy, who is elite as an offensive pivot and a defender. They are several tiers apart (all time) IMO

[rmt]

[QUOTE=R.I.P.]Honestly after watching an NBA stories about Dirk

[DMAVS41]

What you are missing is that Dirk needed a defensive (big man) presence beside him. Mavs getting Dampier and PHX getting Shaq were moves to defend Duncan. I disagree that they'd have the same amount of championships - big men cost a lot - eat up cap space - and teams had to have them to defend a player like Duncan (or Shaq). With Duncan, the Spurs have an elite player on BOTH sides of the court - no need to spend as much on other big men (Oberto, Nazr, Horry, Kurt Thomas, Malik, Bonner, Blair) and then Parker and Manu could get their big contracts. The exception earlier on was Rasho who was needed because Shaq was in his prime.

Mavs went through Dampier and Diop before getting lucky with the missing piece they needed to win a ring with (Chandler).

Yea, but this implies they couldn't win with Damp and Diop. And they did actually...the Mavs beat the Spurs in 06 without that "missing piece"

What a team can't do...is win in the playoffs without a legit 2nd guy and without a defensive center as good as 11 Chandler...or something to that extent.

So I of course agree that Duncan has a built in advantage over Dirk because he provides that...implying that the Mavs couldn't win without that is silly. Give the 06 Mavs a better 2nd guy and they win. Give the 07 Mavs a all nba 2nd guy and I'd bet anything they beat the Warriors. Dirk doesn't go down in 03 they are 50/50 to win title...etc.

I mean...even with that...a guy like Duncan needs slightly less help to win overall...especially if you factor in competition level.

[Sarcastic]

It's closer than people want to believe. Dirk led a team picked to lose every round to a title. Chandler, Terry, Old Kidd, barea, etc .... Does that really sound like a stacked team? Don't get me wrong, they put the work in to win that title. We already know TD can win a title with minimal help (03). But how many teams did Dirk play on where people would say they were stacked? Maybe the 2003 and 2004 teams. But nothing really else sticks out. The first year Dirk played with a legit center they won a title.


That title had more to do with Lebron choking than Dirk winning. If Lebron just outplayed Jason Terry, then Dwyane Wade has a second Finals MVP and 4 rings. Outplaying Jason Terry shouldn't be that much to ask of someone on the top 10 GOAT list.

[Segatti]

That title had more to do with Lebron choking than Dirk winning. If Lebron just outplayed Jason Terry, then Dwyane Wade has a second Finals MVP and 4 rings. Outplaying Jason Terry shouldn't be that much to ask of someone on the top 10 GOAT list.

Do you realize that the only reason Dwyane Wade went off was because the entire Mavs defense was focused on slowing down Lebron, or you're just that stupid?

[Sarcastic]

Do you realize that the only reason Dwyane Wade went off was because the entire Mavs defense was focused on slowing down Lebron, or you're just that stupid?


:roll: :roll: :roll:

Did you watch? He wasn't even trying. He barely took any shots in the 4Q.

[SCdac]

Dirk vs. KG is a much more debatable comparison, two guys who lost alot in the first/second round, relied so much on their jumpers, but also won a championship in the latter part of their careers when Shaq and Duncan started to age and come down to earth as dominant forces. Duncan is quite clearly in a higher tier than Dirk and it goes beyond merely who their franchises surrounded them with.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

KG is closer to Duncan than Dirk.

Switch the circumstances between Duncan and KG and I feel you are also looking at switched careers. As far as PFs go, I have Duncan and KG on tier 1 (with Barkley and Malone, maybe Pettit) and Dirk on tier 2 (with Hayes, McHale, etc).

[DMAVS41]

Dirk vs. KG is a much more debatable comparison, two guys who lost alot in the first/second round, relied so much on their jumpers, but also won a championship in the latter part of their careers when Shaq and Duncan started to age and come down to earth as dominant forces. Duncan is quite clearly in a higher tier than Dirk and it goes beyond merely who their franchises surrounded them with.

I agree that KG and Dirk is the comparison to make and Duncan is on a different tier than both.

But you implying that Duncan or Shaq was the problem with the Mavs not winning is silly. Hence you forget 06 and 09. Not to mention the Mavs never once played Shaq in the playoffs in the West...LOL. The problem with the Mavs was always two things. Not having that legit 2nd guy...and not having a quality center.

And the 03 Spurs could have been replaced by literally any team making the WCF and they still would have beaten a Dirk-less Mavs team.

Unless I'm forgetting a year...the Mavs lost to the Spurs 3 times in the playoffs...and beat the Spurs 2 times.

The first year in 01...the Mavs were hardly title contenders...so it wasn't the Spurs that kept the Mavs from winning...it was simply the fact that they weren't a title contending team.

03 was really the only year it prevented the Mavs from winning the title...and again...Dirk got hurt..any WCF team is beating the Dirk-less Mavs.

Am I forgetting a year? Mavs lost to the Spurs in 01, 03, and 10. Beat them in 06 and 09. I feel like it was 4 losses, but can't think straight today I guess.

Put it this way...the 11 Mavs are quite easily beating the 06 Heat in the finals.

[SCdac]

But you implying that Duncan or Shaq was the problem with the Mavs not winning is silly. Hence you forget the 06 series.

Which series is "the series"? The series in which Dirk's team barely beat the Spurs (it literally went to OT, of Game 7 and proved the teams were very even 60+ win teams. Diop came up huge in defending TD in OT. Unsung hero) or the series in which Dirk's team collapsed under Shaq's team and Shaq got his 4th ring?...

http://tucsoncitizen.com/morgue/files/2006/06/l16143-2.jpg

We probably have such different interpretations on so many series and players, I don't care to beat it to death, but I don't think it's outlandish to say the decade in which Dirk most played in (his physical prime, guess you could say) pretty much belonged to the Lakers and Spurs (or Duncan, Shaq, Kobe) regardless of the actual win-losses (some of which I included in my initial post).

[SilkkTheShocker]

KG is closer to Duncan than Dirk.

Switch the circumstances between Duncan and KG and I feel you are also looking at switched careers. As far as PFs go, I have Duncan and KG on tier 1 (with Barkley and Malone, maybe Pettit) and Dirk on tier 2 (with Hayes, McHale, etc).

Dirk >>> KG

[DMAVS41]

Which series is "the series"? The series in which Dirk's team barely beat the Spurs (it literally went to OT, of Game 7 and proved the teams were very even 60+ win teams. Diop came up huge in defending TD in OT. Unsung hero) or the series in which Dirk's team collapsed under Shaq's team and Shaq got his 4th ring?...

http://tucsoncitizen.com/morgue/files/2006/06/l16143-2.jpg

We probably have such different interpretations on so many series and players, I don't care to beat it to death, but I don't think it's outlandish to say the decade in which Dirk most played in (his physical prime, guess you could say) pretty much belonged to the Lakers and Spurs (or Duncan, Shaq, Kobe) regardless of the actual win-losses (some of which I included in my initial post).


No. Listen. The Mavs lost to the Spurs 3 times. The Mavs beat the Spurs twice. The Mavs lost to a Shaq team once. The Mavs beat a Kobe team once.

That is the actual record.

And again...1 of the losses to the Spurs came in a year in which the Mavs had made the playoffs for the first time in years...and were absolutely not contenders. So by no means did the Spurs/Duncan prevent this.

The Spurs definitely prevented it in 03, but again...what WCF team is not beating a Dirk-less Mavs team? And if they don't...the Mavs are certainly losing in the finals without Dirk...and neither Shaq nor Duncan would have been there.

I brought up 06 because it was clear that the problem was not Duncan or Shaq. You even allude to it in your post when you talk about Diop doing a good job on Duncan in OT. So I find it funny you shoot yourself in the foot there. Take a look at what Shaq did in the finals:

17/7
5/6
16/11
17/13
18/12
9/12

I'd of course argue that Shaq's impact was better than those numbers, but come one. It wasn't Shaq...it was Wade. It was a flaw in the Mavs team and coach.

That is my point. You can't claim that Duncan/Shaq/Kobe prevented the Mavs from winning when they clearly didn't. In fact, I'd argue that the Mavs prevented the Spurs from winning the title as often as the Spurs did to the Mavs. I think it was clear that if the Mavs beat the Spurs in 03...they win the title. I think it was also clear that if the Spurs beat the Mavs in 06...they win the title. Only difference? Dirk got hurt and missed the final 3 games of the 03 series.

Total Mavs record against the guys you mention? Kobe 1-0, Shaq 0-1, Duncan 2-3.

The point is simple. The main issue holding the Mavs back was internal...not external. The Mavs needed a legit 2nd guy from 04 on....or a Chandler type center. They had neither until 11. That was their issue....not their 3-4 record against the guys you mention...with 1 of the losses coming in a year in which the Mavs weren't even remotely contenders...and another coming in the WCF when Dirk got hurt.

[SCdac]

The point is simple. The main issue holding the Mavs back was internal...not external. The Mavs needed a legit 2nd guy from 04 on....or a Chandler type center. They had neither until 11.

Yes, they needed more under Dirk's watch, I get it. Cubans millions of dollars over the cap weren't enough. dude all I see is a wall of excuses, constantly propping up the same things, constantly discounting the same things, and conveniently never criticizing Dirk or acknowledging core reasons why he was not the same kind of driving force top-10 players were – some of which played in the same era. We disagree on so many points, I don't have time to help you take off the the Dirk-fanboy goggles. I think Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe are all 3 a tier or two above Dirk, and generally speaking the league made moves to catch up to the Spurs/Lakers in the last decade not the Dirk-lead Mavs.

Can you wrap your head around the concept of a "Duncan-effect" or "Shaq-effect" in that teams built rosters to guard those guys, and, on the court, them having a significant effect even without being scoring stars ? Steve Kerr changed the face of the Suns, by trading for Shaq, just to counter the Spurs and turn the Suns into what seemed like a winning model at the time. In saying that, it's not a coincidence Shaq in 06 (and the year before) turned the Heat from "good with Wade" into "elite with Wade". Box scores don't show the true effect of just-out-of-prime Shaq.

As mentioned Dirk is an all-time great, but I think him, Garnett, and a couple other great PF's are better comparisons.

[Legends66NBA7]

As mentioned Dirk is an all-time great, but I think him, Garnett, and a couple other great PF's are better comparisons.

I mentioned it on the 2nd page:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8923351&postcount=19

It's a battle for #2 spot between 5-7 PF's (realistically 5).

[JimmyMcAdocious]

Dirk >>> KG

Dirk isn't even above Pettit all time, much less Garnett. Unless you are speaking about their basketball talent, which I disagree even more.

[DMAVS41]

Yes, they needed more under Dirk's watch, I get it. Cubans millions of dollars over the cap weren't enough. dude all I see is a wall of excuses, constantly propping up the same things, constantly discounting the same things, and conveniently never criticizing Dirk or acknowledging core reasons why he was not the same kind of driving force top-10 players were – some of which played in the same era. We disagree on so many points, I don't have time to help you take off the the Dirk-fanboy goggles. I think Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe are all 3 a tier or two above Dirk, and generally speaking the league made moves to catch up to the Spurs/Lakers in the last decade not the Dirk-lead Mavs.

Can you wrap your head around the concept of a "Duncan-effect" or "Shaq-effect" in that teams built rosters to guard those guys, and, on the court, them having a significant effect even without being scoring stars ? Steve Kerr changed the face of the Suns, by trading for Shaq, just to counter the Spurs and turn the Suns into what seemed like a winning model at the time. In saying that, it's not a coincidence Shaq in 06 (and the year before) turned the Heat from "good with Wade" into "elite with Wade". Box scores don't show the true effect of just-out-of-prime Shaq.

As mentioned Dirk is an all-time great, but I think him, Garnett, and a couple other great PF's are better comparisons.

Again you lose the argument and shift the topic. I agree Shaq and Duncan are on a different tier than Dirk. Considering Dirk is 1-0 against Kobe in the playoffs and Kobe never prevented Dirk from winning anything...he's not a part of this discussion.

You claimed that Shaq and Duncan declining is what led to the Mavs winning. I disputed that. I showed you the actual times these guys met in the playoffs.

And your point about the Shaq/Duncan effect shoots your own foot yet again. That would be reason to have a quality center to battle them...something the Mavs never got until Chandler. ROFL...could you make my points for me any better?

The point is that the Mavs problems were internal...not external. Dirk getting hurt in 03 was not because they played Duncan...shit just happens. The Mavs not winning the title in 01 was not because of Duncan. They simply weren't a title contending team. So your points, as usual, hold no water.

Of course Dirk needed more help. So would have any other player in history. You think Shaq is consistently winning with that help? Hell no...take a look at orlando or early Lakers...Shaq needs a lot of help and elite coaching to win. Duncan? Hell no...he'd no doubt have more success than Dirk, but he's not consistently winning with those rosters...he basically has a .500 record against Dirk in the playoffs with more help to begin with...LOL

You can't just change the argument. You presented an argument claiming Shaq and Duncan were responsible for the Mavs not winning. In a couple years...sure. But the same can be said against the Spurs for example. The Spurs didn't win in 06 or 09 because of the Mavs. So all you are left with is grasping at 01 to swing it in favor of Duncan/Spurs...a year in which the Mavs were underdogs to get out of the first round and were probably well over 100 to 1 to win the title. LOL

Which brings us back to the main point. The Mavs lacked things on the roster...and even lacking certain things were still able to beat the Duncan led Spurs twice in the playoffs with a 2-3 overall record. Give Dirk the same kind of help that Shaq and Duncan had...and coaching for that matter...and I see no reason why the Mavs don't win in 06 and potentially other years as well. Hell, 03 was a tossup before Dirk got hurt if you remember. Series likely goes 7...Dirk has never lost a game 7. I'll take the Mavs.

Logic and reason sucks...doesn't it.

Basically you just want to be able to blame Dirk for the failings of Cuban and Nellie Jr. Blame Dirk for having to play without a center and without a reliable 2nd option for all of his best years other than 03.

How is that Dirk's fault? You are telling me it is easier to get Shaq...Kobe Bryant than it is to get Dirk a paul pierce type player or a quality center.

It's not hard. Put Dirk, Ray Allen, and a guy like current Noah on the same team in their primes...which wouldn't even be historically special at all...and you are going to get the kind of results you keep insisting.

Again...I'm not arguing that Dirk is on the Duncan/Shaq tier...I'm arguing against your silly assertion that is was Shaq/Duncan that prevented the Mavs from winning a bunch of titles. This is just factually incorrect...what prevented the Mavs from winning titles was not having the historical championship supporting casts that most other players have. Clearly Duncan needs less to win...that isn't what this is about.

I just love this...I ranked Duncan 4th all time on my current list and I get accused of not respecting him enough...****ing absurd.

[Myth]

Dirk is to Duncan as Barkley is to Jordan.

[SCdac]

The Mavs not winning the title in 01 was not because of Duncan.

Except for the fact Duncan averaged 27 ppg / 17 rpg / 4 apg against em and Spurs nearly swept them out of the playoffs.

I don't deny that the Mavs were not heavy favorites, but lets be real it was Shaq and Duncan's league at the time even if Dirk's team had been a little better or even 03 good or 11 good.

The Spurs/Duncan and Lakers/Shaq dominance extends into the regular season and when they rise to the top in inevitably pushes weaker teams and players to the bottom if not directly indirectly. Spurs had the Mavs number from Dirk's rookie season till about 06 as Duncan had plantar fasciitis

[SilkkTheShocker]

Dirk isn't even above Pettit all time, much less Garnett. Unless you are speaking about their basketball talent, which I disagree even more.

:oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

Except for the fact Duncan averaged 27 ppg / 17 rpg / 4 apg against em and Spurs nearly swept them out of the playoffs.

I don't deny that the Mavs were not heavy favorites, but lets be real it was Shaq and Duncan's league at the time even if Dirk's team had been a little better or even 03 good or 11 good.

The Spurs/Duncan and Lakers/Shaq dominance extends into the regular season and when they rise to the top in inevitably pushes weaker teams and players to the bottom if not directly indirectly. Spurs had the Mavs number from Dirk's rookie season till about 06 as Duncan had plantar fasciitis

When you say they had their number...what are you referring to? Regular season game?

The Spurs beat the Mavs in 01 and 03...and then lost in 06. That is a 2-1 record...and one of the years...the Mavs were first time in the playoffs. Dirk's first trip to the playoffs...not expected to win round 1...so it's a non issue.

In 03...Dirk got hurt in the WCF series against your Spurs. I must laugh at you using the injury excuse for Duncan in 06 when he actually played...and played great...while not mentioning Dirk missing 3 plus games in that series.

Remember this isn't Duncan/Shaq vs Dirk. If that is your only point. Totally agree. Duncan and Shaq are on a different tier.

But all the evidence suggests that give Dirk and Duncan roughly equal help head to head in a series...and it's going to be tight...with Duncan being better of course, but not so much better that he could win if Dirk had the kind of help Shaq did...or Lebron did in 11 or 12. Or what KG had in 08...or what Kobe had in 09 and 10. Give Dirk that kind of help/coaching and properly built team and you are going to get a great team.

And you act like 06 and 09 didn't happen. The Spurs were at the height of their powers from 05 through 07. They lost one series...and it was to Dirk. And it took a player almost matching Duncan in a game 7 with 37/15/3 from Dirk and 41/15/6 from Duncan.

You see my point? It wasn't external...it was internal. Give Dirk better help and you'd get better results. Simple as that. It's not like when he went up against Duncan and Shaq they just dominated him or something. That just didn't happen. Hell, even in 01...Dirk had games of 30/9 and 42/18 after struggling the first few games of that series against Duncan. In 03 the Mavs won game 1 on the road with Dirk going for 38/15/2.

The Mavs also lost to the Kings, Suns, Thunder, Hornets, and Nuggets during that time. Was Melo just too good in 09? See my point? It was internal...

It's not about me knocking Duncan or Shaq. Again...I have Duncan in the top 4 all time right now. It's about you not seeing the real issue for the Mavs.

You keep wanting to blame a guy that put up 26/10/3 on 58.4% TS in the playoffs for his career. A guy that has never lost a game 7. A guy that is on the short list of best elimination game player ever.

And his best teammate from 04 to present was probably Jason Terry...think about that.

[Kblaze8855]

Duncan is to Dirk what Lebron is to Melo. I considered Kevin Durant but Durant is closer to Lebron than Dirk is to Duncan.

Melo could at any moment outplay Lebron but history wont need to ask who was better. There is at least a chance of history leaving a Lebron/Durant debate depending on the next 7-8 years.

The Dirk/Duncan debate never really got off the ground. Duncan came out the gate too good and stayed there too long.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Barkley > Mailman > KG > Dirk
Hakeem > Shaq > D-Rob > Duncan = Ewing > Zo

[JimmyMcAdocious]

:oldlol:

1 championship each.
Pettit 2 MVPs to Dirk's 1
Pettit was all NBA 1st team 10 times. Dirk, 4 times.
11 all-stars each. (Pettit won the all-star MVP 4 times - a record until Kobe tied it, Dirk 0)

The only man to beat Russell and those dynasty Celtics? Pettit. He dropped, then a record, 50 points in the decisive Game 6.

And Pettit did that in 11 seasons. Dirk is going into his 16th.

What argument does Dirk have over Pettit?

[DMAVS41]

1 championship each.
Pettit 2 MVPs to Dirk's 1
Pettit was all NBA 1st team 10 times. Dirk, 4 times.
11 all-stars each. (Pettit won the all-star MVP 4 times - a record until Kobe tied it, Dirk 0)

The only man to beat Russell and those dynasty Celtics? Pettit. He dropped, then a record, 50 points in the decisive Game 6.

And Pettit did that in 11 seasons. Dirk is going into his 16th.

What argument does Dirk have over Pettit?

Pettit definitely has a case over Dirk. The Power Forwards from like 2 to 7 could really be in any order.

I personally have it Duncan/Dirk/KG/Pettit/Malone/Barkley/McHale

[SamuraiSWISH]

On what merits is Dirk over KG? LOL

[Kblaze8855]

The basketball world pretends Bob didnt exist because hes white, lanky, and was balding. He just doesnt look like we should count what he did.

Put Bobs accomplishments in Nate thurmonds body hes probably top 15 on most lists. 2 MVPs, 10 straight all nba first teams, 30/20 averages, and a title?

He had the same basic career as Moses Malone. We just pretend it never happened because he looks unimpressive to fans used to their athletes having hair transplants, being on HGH, and lifting weights since 14..

[DMAVS41]

Duncan is to Dirk what Lebron is to Melo. I considered Kevin Durant but Durant is closer to Lebron than Dirk is to Duncan.

Melo could at any moment outplay Lebron but history wont need to ask who was better. There is at least a chance of history leaving a Lebron/Durant debate depending on the next 7-8 years.

The Dirk/Duncan debate never really got off the ground. Duncan came out the gate too good and stayed there too long.

I think I agree with this...although I'd bet that the difference in the range where Duncan ends up all time and where Dirk ends up all time will be much smaller than the difference between Melo and Lebron.

Lets stay Duncan finishes in the top 5 to 10 range. Dirk finishes in the top 20 to 25 range ( I think higher, but for sake of argument lets ignore that).

A difference of roughly 10 to 15 spots.

Lebron ends up in the 5 to 10 range. Melo ends up where? 50 to 60 range at best?

So on that standard it's a bigger difference.

[Kblaze8855]

Well that just depends on who you ask.

You poll the 96 top 50 voters(most are still around) again.....make them work to make a ranking...

I doubt Dirk ends up mugh higher than a guy like Dave Cowens or Willis reed.

And im not sure he should be. Im not sure that modern players coming in younger and playing longer with better medical care means guys who stack more such and such just go over old guys who played 12 years and got just as much done but didnt have the time to do it over and over and over.

Given all the modern awards Reed may have been MVP, AS MVP, finals MVP, and DPOY. Hes another guy we just pretend didnt exist. Cowens too. 2 rings...MVP...68 win team(lost like Dirks though...to the Knicks I believe). Elite defender and rebounder whil being way more skilled than people who dont look into it assume. Ive seen Cowens going coast to coast several times. Good handles...good jumper. Hooks with both hands. Floaters. Crazy hustle.

But hes gotta beat out Kareem for an all NBA spot and for a while Wilt too. Not like Dirk ever beats out 21-30 year old Kareem for one spot.

Its tricky really.

To me how many times you win a ring doesnt do that much anymore. Once you prove you had what it takes....once you do all there is to be done?

You win a ring as the best player and win the MVP...

I have to wonder...what else can we ask?

You take KG, Dirk, Cowens, Reed, and even a Rick Barry...I dont need to fight over the exact spot.

I dont know if Dirk is gonna play Kareem in his prime to a standstill and win game 7 for a ring. I dont know if Cowens can do what Dirk has(I know he couldnt the same way). I dont know if Rick Barry gets the 05 Wolves 3-4 more wins. I suspect he wouldnt. But I dont know if KG has the approach to be leaned on to score as much as Barry was when he was powering teams a notch from ordinary to the title.

Outside the true elites...not much to break it up to me.

Someone wants to rank Hondo over KG, Dirk, Scottie Pippen, or whoever....im not worried about it.

Shit Walt Frazier had a hell of a career. So did Dolph Schayes who is another we pretend never existed(largely due to shooting percentages and being a skinny white guy).

Most of these guys didnt just accomplishment much the others didnt. Once you are the MVP and a champion on that level as a player(nto a role player)...**** it.

Id probably take Bill Walton over a lot of the people mentioned in here......

[SCdac]

The Mavs also lost to the Kings, Suns, Thunder, Hornets, and Nuggets during that time. Was Melo just too good in 09? See my point? It was internal...

yeah the Mavs lost a bunch of times to a bunch of teams while Dirk was their best player, we know. Roughly 9 second & first round exits combined? The beatings were not done exclusively by Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe (obviously), but in many cases it was done by teams that eventually lost to the Lakers or Spurs, as teams lead by Duncan, Shaq, and Kobe were often the least common denominator... hence talking up their effect, direct and indirect, on the league.... When talking "tiers", it's fair to see what kind of impact players had over many years and see retrospectively how paths bled into each other and who usually ended up on top. Dirk, in essence, had to wait 13 seasons to end up on top, for reasons both in and out of his control. Had Dirk won in the midst of Duncan and Shaq's prime, surely that would have had different implications, imo

[DMAVS41]

yeah the Mavs lost a bunch of times to a bunch of teams while Dirk was their best player, we know. Roughly 9 second & first round exits combined? The beatings were not done exclusively by Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe (obviously), but in many cases it was done by teams that eventually lost to the Lakers or Spurs, as teams lead by Duncan, Shaq, and Kobe were often the least common denominator... hence talking up their effect, direct and indirect, on the league.... When talking "tiers", it's fair to see what kind of impact players had over many years and see retrospectively how paths bled into each other and who usually ended up on top. Dirk, in essence, had to wait 13 seasons to end up on top, for reasons both in and out of his control. Had Dirk won in the midst of Duncan and Shaq's prime, surely that would have had different implications, imo

Hmmm...so you think competition level matters a whole lot...and again...well...Dirk beat Duncan in the heart of his prime.

But...I don't think that is a good look for you as the Spurs could not have faced easier competition the years they won. So I wouldn't make that argument.

Dirk's run in 11..the Mavs faced a tougher road to the title than any Duncan led team. Not even close really. But I'm sure you'll need to prop up some BS Nets, Knicks, or Cavs team in the finals...LOL

Again you make my point for me. Nothing changed with Dirk. His help changed. Dirk wasn't the problem...he just needed normal championship level help...and when he got even close to that...the results were excellent.

Dirk didn't need the league to just open up and gift him titles like it did with the Duncan led Spurs. Lockout year, joke finals in 03 after Dirk gets hurt in WCF, 07...horrid competition. 05 only legit year on your criteria...kind of sad.

And again...Duncan was only 3-2 against Dirk in the playoffs...and I'd argue he had the better team every time but 03. And it took Dirk going out with an injury.

Again...not a good look.

Who beat the Duncan Spurs at the height of their powers? Dirk
Who beat the Lebron/Wade Heat at the height of their powers? Dirk

Nobody else can even beat this joker 13 Heat...not your Spurs at least.

But at least you have come off the nonsense that Shaq/Duncan prevented the Mavs from winning. Now you are just saying that Shaq/Duncan were better than Dirk..no shit.

Again...was that your only point? That Shaq/Duncan were better than Dirk? I have Duncan ranked 4th all time. Shaq 7th...and Dirk like 15th or something. The reason I have it like that is because I thought they were better.

So I have no idea what you are going on about. You just talked out of your ass and I guess assumed that Duncan had a better record against Dirk and that Shaq/Kobe were even relevant...which they weren't.

[DMAVS41]

Well that just depends on who you ask.

You poll the 96 top 50 voters(most are still around) again.....make them work to make a ranking...

I doubt Dirk ends up mugh higher than a guy like Dave Cowens or Willis reed.

And im not sure he should be. Im not sure that modern players coming in younger and playing longer with better medical care means guys who stack more such and such just go over old guys who played 12 years and got just as much done but didnt have the time to do it over and over and over.

Given all the modern awards Reed may have been MVP, AS MVP, finals MVP, and DPOY. Hes another guy we just pretend didnt exist. Cowens too. 2 rings...MVP...68 win team(lost like Dirks though...to the Knicks I believe). Elite defender and rebounder whil being way more skilled than people who dont look into it assume. Ive seen Cowens going coast to coast several times. Good handles...good jumper. Hooks with both hands. Floaters. Crazy hustle.

But hes gotta beat out Kareem for an all NBA spot and for a while Wilt too. Not like Dirk ever beats out 21-30 year old Kareem for one spot.

Its tricky really.

To me how many times you win a ring doesnt do that much anymore. Once you prove you had what it takes....once you do all there is to be done?

You win a ring as the best player and win the MVP...

I have to wonder...what else can we ask?

You take KG, Dirk, Cowens, Reed, and even a Rick Barry...I dont need to fight over the exact spot.

I dont know if Dirk is gonna play Kareem in his prime to a standstill and win game 7 for a ring. I dont know if Cowens can do what Dirk has(I know he couldnt the same way). I dont know if Rick Barry gets the 05 Wolves 3-4 more wins. I suspect he wouldnt. But I dont know if KG has the approach to be leaned on to score as much as Barry was when he was powering teams a notch from ordinary to the title.

Outside the true elites...not much to break it up to me.

Someone wants to rank Hondo over KG, Dirk, Scottie Pippen, or whoever....im not worried about it.

Shit Walt Frazier had a hell of a career. So did Dolph Schayes who is another we pretend never existed(largely due to shooting percentages and being a skinny white guy).

Most of these guys didnt just accomplishment much the others didnt. Once you are the MVP and a champion on that level as a player(nto a role player)...**** it.

Id probably take Bill Walton over a lot of the people mentioned in here......

Nah, people that actually know the history of the game have Dirk somewhere between 15 and 25.

Melo, at best, right now is around 75.

So on that standard...the difference between Melo and Lebron is a lot greater than the difference between Dirk and Duncan.

[zoom17]

:confusedshrug:

It got interesting after 2011, before that I think majority of people would have said he's a great player but not on Duncan's level...what about now?

Hell no not even close Duncan>>>>> Dirk

[Dbrog]

It happens all the time tho, the Spurs always choke when they face teams just as good as them. See: 2004 Lakers, 2002 Lakers, 2006 Mavs, 2009 Mavs, 2012 OKC, 2013 Heat, etc.

Spurs were not favored in any of these series except the Mavs series. 2006 Mavs went to the finals and probably shoulda won the chip. Nothing bad about losing to them...even though it coulda gone differently if not for the stupid ginobli foul. In 2009 it was basically just Duncan and Parker vs a deep Mavs squad. I don't know what you're playing at here.

[Dbrog]

Dirk didn't need the league to just open up and gift him titles like it did with the Duncan led Spurs. Lockout year, joke finals in 03 after Dirk gets hurt in WCF, 07...horrid competition. 05 only legit year on your criteria...kind of sad.


Trying not to nitpick here because I think there was a lot of truth in the rest of this post, but this section is simply inaccurate.

1999-Spurs had a good team, yes, but they beat a very well rounded Blazers team in the WCF and basically the same Lakers that 3 peated the years after. Far from "gifted" a ring IMO.

2003 - You talk about the weak finals, but the Spurs ended the dynasty Lakers. What else could you possibly ask for? That Lakers team was the greatest team since this new Heat team (btw, congrats Dirk for basically doing what Duncan did in 99'). Also, that Mavs team was super scrappy that year. I mean they knocked out the Blazers and Kings. Pretty crazy IMO since I thought they had a worse team (props to Dirk again). Not to mention, Duncan had very little help this year. Really just '11 Dirk, '03 Duncan and '94 Hakeem are the only dudes I know of who led such weak casts to chips. Impressive.

2005 - Spurs knocked out a Suns team with basically 4 allstars on it. Then barely pulled one out on one of the greatest defensive teams of alltime '05 Pistons. Certainly earned this year as well.

2007 - Can't argue with this one. Very easy road IMO. Could see it as a gift.

[SCdac]

Dirk's run in 11..the Mavs faced a tougher road to the title than any Duncan led team. Not even close really.

Yeah man going through Hall of Fame big men like 21 year old Serge Ibaka, Lamarcus Aldridge, Pau Gasol, and the mighty Chris Bosh was real impressive... No doubt Dirk had an amazing offensive run (like he's had before) and even guarded Bosh well, but all the best opponents in that run were swingmen, that's my point. Evolved league. It's not quite reminiscent of Duncan going through Shaq twice in championship years and ending the 3-peat Lakers, or Hakeem going through Robinson then Shaq in the Finals.

If you don't agree that the league and crop of elite big men had significantly changed in complexion by 2010-2011 versus when Dirk was 20-30 years old and in his physical prime, that's fine. Dirk and the deep Mavs capitalized on their 2011 season in a concise manner so it's not a slight. His offensive run was excellent, and he had the defenders to deal with Lebron and Durant around him. Some team has to win it and the Mavs did it. The Spurs were close to winning it last season, and I didn't consider them a particularly strong team "all-time". The Heat nowadays pretty much win if Lebron decides to show up or not.

[Kblaze8855]

Nah, people that actually know the history of the game have Dirk somewhere between 15 and 25.


People who know the history of the game have a lot more people in mind than come up on ISH lists made by 24 year olds. Even in 96 there were people who had been covering the league since the 70s who said they had guys top 20 who didnt make the top 50 list.

This obsession with 5 and 10 digit levels has nothing to do with the sport.

I remember Jsic used to argue long and hard that antione Walker was top 20 like 12-13 years ago and I couldnt figure out what the need was to cut it off at a round number.

The shit is meaningless. Dirk to you is top 20(probably higher) but at the top of his game he gets worked and put out of the playoffs by eternally recovering Baron Davis as he puts up 8 on 2-11 shooting?

On the floor your 15 years of accomplishments dont matter. And people who watched these guys tend to remember that quite well. They rarely even get the almanac facts right.

To be ranked highly forever by history you need either an absurd resume of winning....or a game that inspires awe and makes people talk about how great you were forever....

Lacking that you are Dave Cowens. Or Dirk. Or Rick Barry. Or walt frazier. And funny thing is 2 of them won more than Dirk(at least as far as rings...the only thing that matters). And people dont care about them anyway.

Dirk doesnt have that hook to his game. Nothing to last in the minds. And one ring?

Dirk isnt gonna be that well remembered.

He doesnt even have the guarding Oscar top of the key knocking it away and diving for it moment like Dave to get replayed forever.

Dirk will be a "He couldnt do that today" player in 12-15 years.

Like all white guys who arent Larry Bird. And like Larry bird to idiots. Of which there are many.


I bet I know the history of the game better than 99% of normal fans. Mostly because it just interests me. But the more I learn the less sure I am where I rank anyone.

Short of the elites...its pretty whatever. Especially when we get into guys ive not seen much of. How do I look saying Dirk goes over Dolph when ive seen 34 seconds of highlights and call some 20 year old uneducated for putting Jr Smith over Andrew toney?

I look at resumes alone 1 ring, 1 MVP, and some 50 win seasons dont stand out that much. 4 first teams? Im to pretend that Cowens, Drob, Ewing, and Reed didnt have 1 spot to earn not 2?

I just dont think he holds up over time. No hook.

You need a hook. best shooting bigman wont do any more for him than it did Jerry Lucas before him.

You go poll 100 long time writers/fans/players I dont believe Dirk beats Patrick Ewing right now.

Take it to mean what you will. I just dont see it. He has nothing that just demands inclusion with the big boys. Add another 20 years of rings and MVPs? The new ring smell will have worn off. He becomes "And so on".

As in "The great forwards of all time...Larry Bird, Dr.J, Tim Duncan, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Elgin Baylor and so on".

Hes not making the short list long term. I dont think Kg will either.

Dave Cowens all. People dont know Dave Cowens. Just that they may have heard the name.

His MVP and two rings as a 20/15/5 great defender, leader, and total player dont mean shit.

Dirks MVP and 1 wont either. 1 ring lets you fade. Shit 2 can too. Its dynasty or your rings barely matter.

Nobody gives a shit about Elvin Hayes 78 ring or no....

[JellyBean]

No. Dirk is not even in Duncan's neighborhood.

[Kblaze8855]

I'll put it this way.

If Duncan goes into the HOF one year there is gonna be an NBA special and a full day of his best games no matter who else goes in with him.

If Dirk and Melo go in with him...its gonna be Duncan gets a special...Dirk and Melo get a 2 minute highlight package each.

Different levels if you are gonna worry about tiers in sections of 10 spots as if it has something to do with basketball.

But equally irrelevant to the big boys.

You are either one of the chosen few or you are another of the greats who gets into the HOF without his speech being played on ESPN.

Im sure when Dave retired people had him way over George Gervin.

Doesnt mean he would go way over him today.

[Myth]

Hakeem > Shaq > D-Rob > Duncan = Ewing > Zo

Robinson didn't have the mentality that Duncan did to dominate deep in the playoffs, and Ewing was simply just not as good. I could see Hakeem > Shaq > Duncan > D-Rob > Ewing > Zo.

[KyleKong]

Dirk is a GOAT Power Foward

Duncan is a GOAT player.

[Segatti]

I'll put it this way.

If Duncan goes into the HOF one year there is gonna be an NBA special and a full day of his best games no matter who else goes in with him.

If Dirk and Melo go in with him...its gonna be Duncan gets a special...Dirk and Melo get a 2 minute highlight package each.

Different levels if you are gonna worry about tiers in sections of 10 spots as if it has something to do with basketball.

But equally irrelevant to the big boys.

You are either one of the chosen few or you are another of the greats who gets into the HOF without his speech being played on ESPN.

Im sure when Dave retired people had him way over George Gervin.

Doesnt mean he would go way over him today.

Dirk in the same tier as carmelo? GTFO :facepalm

[Myth]

Dirk in the same tier as carmelo? GTFO :facepalm

I hope you are implying that Dirk is a tier above Melo.

[DMAVS41]

I'll put it this way.

If Duncan goes into the HOF one year there is gonna be an NBA special and a full day of his best games no matter who else goes in with him.

If Dirk and Melo go in with him...its gonna be Duncan gets a special...Dirk and Melo get a 2 minute highlight package each.

Different levels if you are gonna worry about tiers in sections of 10 spots as if it has something to do with basketball.

But equally irrelevant to the big boys.

You are either one of the chosen few or you are another of the greats who gets into the HOF without his speech being played on ESPN.

Im sure when Dave retired people had him way over George Gervin.

Doesnt mean he would go way over him today.


You lose me with this.

Are you implying that if you aren't top 10 all time...every player is essentially meaningless in the history of the game.

That we can't differentiate between a guy like Dirk and a guy like Melo?

Come on now...maybe down the road Melo does something to warrant such a comparison, but not now by any standard.

Dirk has done historic NBA things...like being one of four players to average over 25/10 in the playoffs for his career. leading a franchise to 50 wins or more for 11 straight years (been done only 4 times in NBA history)

has a mvp. a title. a finals mvp. led a team to like the 8th best record ever.

playoff career numbers and success that destroys Melo.

The gap between them is huge.

The notion that Melo and Dirk matter equally in the history of the game is just complete bullshit.

[bdreason]

Dirk isn't in the same tier as Duncan. Never has been, and never will be.

[Cali Syndicate]

Duncan dominated the game In ways that dirk could never touch. Dirks an offensive phenomenon on an evolution of the game kinda tip though, i mean a 7 footer with such touch? Just wow. :applause:

But Duncan is basically mr basketball though. He just plays the game right, and is among the very best to ever do it.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Robinson didn't have the mentality that Duncan did to dominate deep in the playoffs, and Ewing was simply just not as good. I could see Hakeem > Shaq > Duncan > D-Rob > Ewing > Zo.
All Duncan had on D-Rob was better coaching, better supporting cast. Ewing absolutely was as good or better, particularly before the devastating knee injuries that immobilized him. D-Rob was definitely more impressive and dominant to me. Duncan is overrated, Ewing underrated. He did just as much with less offensive help. Duncan is a center, and is maybe top three I've ever seen.

[eklip]

Duncan is a top 10 all-time player and Dirk isn't. I don't think there is much to discuss.

They are different players, but I like watching them both.

Game 7 in 2006:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXrTFwZ0K2g
Dirk: 37 PTS, 15 REB, 3 AST, 1 STL, 1 BLK, 0 TOV, .684 TS%
Duncan: 41 PTS, 15 REB, 6 AST, 1 STL, 3 BLK, 3 TOV, .601 TS%

Game 5 in 2001 (Elimination game):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WEAEzfN0kA
Dirk: 42 PTS, 18 REB, 2 AST, 6 STL, 1 BLK, 3 TOV, .658 TS%
Duncan: 32 PTS, 20 REB, 3 AST, 1 STL, 5 BLK, 5 TOV, .536 TS%

I love the contrast of styles.

[Kblaze8855]

You lose me with this.

Are you implying that if you aren't top 10 all time...every player is essentially meaningless in the history of the game.

That we can't differentiate between a guy like Dirk and a guy like Melo?

Come on now...maybe down the road Melo does something to warrant such a comparison, but not now by any standard.

Dirk has done historic NBA things...like being one of four players to average over 25/10 in the playoffs for his career. leading a franchise to 50 wins or more for 11 straight years (been done only 4 times in NBA history)

has a mvp. a title. a finals mvp. led a team to like the 8th best record ever.

playoff career numbers and success that destroys Melo.

The gap between them is huge.

The notion that Melo and Dirk matter equally in the history of the game is just complete bullshit.

You think that I....a person who has been pointing out the lesser known greats here forever...thinks all non top 10 players are meaningless?

I said nothing that could be taken that way.

I said there is one clear level to me. The elites.

After that I have no real need to break guys up into meaningless tiers. Just call them all time greats and leave it there.

And no I dont think Dirk is gonna be terribly more remembered than Melo or that anyone is gonna be too aware of what hes done MVP/title aside. Which as ive explained....for guys not on a dynasty people dont seem that impressed by. Not to the point they dont bump guys who accomplished less up right next to them.

What actually happened and what people thought at the time don't favor in as much as the good story and being flashy and popular.

I point to our own top 100. The ISH list. On that list Pistol Pete is I think top 50 or very close. While Lou Hudson isnt even on it. But Pete...was Lous sidekick. Lou had more playoff success before Pete arrived than Pete had in his career. He was an all star more times....and was respected. While Pete according to his own GM...wasnt wanted by the rest of the league. Which is why he ended up in New Orleans trying to sell tickets for an expansion team next to his alma mater.

But history gives Pete top 50 status and top 20-30 to many. Lou Hudson...only list I ever saw include him was Slams top 500 who had him at 126. And they by the way had Dave Cowens 44 and Gervin 45....not that an MVP winner with 2 rings and great respect from his peers being next to a guy who did nothing but score and lose in the playoffs is in any way suggestive on the Dirk/Melo issue.....


WIthout that hook....that something that stands out...guys like Dirk, Cowens, Reed, Barry, Unseld, Schayes, and yes....one of my favorites...KG...just dont get that longterm love.

Feel free to not like it. I dont much like it.

But in 30 years there will be no great difference between Dirk and Gary Payton. Just two hall of famers. Nobody is gonna care if one is #28 and one is #41 to you(im sure the next 30 years will add some elites).

Only the guys who earned the right to be discussed among the very very best have their spots secure. And as time goes by and that level swells to 15-20 as it will....a few of those wont even be.

People have already started hating on Oscar Robertson while every person who ever put eyes on him in his prime has him top 10 and most top 5-6.

When Oscar starts to fall the Dirks sure as hell arent safe. Know who is safe?

MJ
Kareem
Wilt(Kids on the internet will never take his name out of every GOAT convo not had by them)
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
Kobe
Lebron(in a few years hes pretty untouchable)
Hakeem


And it doesnt even look good for Jerry West. Or Baylor. Moses was forgotten 5 years after he retired. Karl and Barkley are holding on for now and I suspect they will last a good while. Isiah? Eh. Stockton?

Last longer than Dirk. But not by much.

Longterm its just the elites and the guys who arent....but are still great.

Which is why George Gervin, Pistol Pete, and Patrick Ewing sit right next to MVPs who won multiple rings.

Dirk isnt gonna change that because of some 25/10 playoff average he wont even retire with(and nobody would care if he did). History ****s the non elites. And it always will.

In the long run Melo is Gervin and Dirk is Dave Cowens. Maybe someone who looks close ranks them far apart. But history is unclear and nobody is even having the argument. Because the difference between #26 and #38 doesnt matter.

[dr.hee]

@Kblaze

I agree with pretty much everything you've said. But I'd add that while all your points are valid, there's more to the "ranking" thing than the public perception of a player or how "history" might remember them. Of course, outside of the undisputed all time greats, the differences between resumes and so on kinda blurries.

But what I'm left with...let's assume for a moment you're right and Dirk won't be remembered much more than Melo. Alright, but should it be that way? Let's say in 10-20 years it's going to be like that. But aside from popular opinion, polls and so on...I still can't see how you could possibly compare these two. Just can't. And I'm not talking about how certain achievements, stats, titles and so on make an impression on fans regarding their personal rankings and so on. Strictly looking at the way these player impacted the game. Can you really put Melo in the same Category as Dirk? Personally, I don't see it. Even if the "public" will have that opinion, is it necessarily true?

And again, I agree with everything you've said. But if I set aside all the things I should be "impressed" with, I'm still left with my subjective view that if I could pick any PF besides Duncan to run a franchise with for the next decade, Dirk definitely has a case to be considered as the next option. I'm not talking in terms of "he's the 2nd best PF of all time". But he's in the conversation of PFs you'd pick to build a team around if you can't have Duncan. And I just don't see how the same can be said for Melo compared to other SFs.

[DMAVS41]

You think that I....a person who has been pointing out the lesser known greats here forever...thinks all non top 10 players are meaningless?

I said nothing that could be taken that way.

I said there is one clear level to me. The elites.

After that I have no real need to break guys up into meaningless tiers. Just call them all time greats and leave it there.

And no I dont think Dirk is gonna be terribly more remembered than Melo or that anyone is gonna be too aware of what hes done MVP/title aside. Which as ive explained....for guys not on a dynasty people dont seem that impressed by. Not to the point they dont bump guys who accomplished less up right next to them.

What actually happened and what people thought at the time don't favor in as much as the good story and being flashy and popular.

I point to our own top 100. The ISH list. On that list Pistol Pete is I think top 50 or very close. While Lou Hudson isnt even on it. But Pete...was Lous sidekick. Lou had more playoff success before Pete arrived than Pete had in his career. He was an all star more times....and was respected. While Pete according to his own GM...wasnt wanted by the rest of the league. Which is why he ended up in New Orleans trying to sell tickets for an expansion team next to his alma mater.

But history gives Pete top 50 status and top 20-30 to many. Lou Hudson...only list I ever saw include him was Slams top 500 who had him at 126. And they by the way had Dave Cowens 44 and Gervin 45....not that an MVP winner with 2 rings and great respect from his peers being next to a guy who did nothing but score and lose in the playoffs is in any way suggestive on the Dirk/Melo issue.....


WIthout that hook....that something that stands out...guys like Dirk, Cowens, Reed, Barry, Unseld, Schayes, and yes....one of my favorites...KG...just dont get that longterm love.

Feel free to not like it. I dont much like it.

But in 30 years there will be no great difference between Dirk and Gary Payton. Just two hall of famers. Nobody is gonna care if one is #28 and one is #41 to you(im sure the next 30 years will add some elites).

Only the guys who earned the right to be discussed among the very very best have their spots secure. And as time goes by and that level swells to 15-20 as it will....a few of those wont even be.

People have already started hating on Oscar Robertson while every person who ever put eyes on him in his prime has him top 10 and most top 5-6.

When Oscar starts to fall the Dirks sure as hell arent safe. Know who is safe?

MJ
Kareem
Wilt(Kids on the internet will never take his name out of every GOAT convo not had by them)
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
Kobe
Lebron(in a few years hes pretty untouchable)
Hakeem


And it doesnt even look good for Jerry West. Or Baylor. Moses was forgotten 5 years after he retired. Karl and Barkley are holding on for now and I suspect they will last a good while. Isiah? Eh. Stockton?

Last longer than Dirk. But not by much.

Longterm its just the elites and the guys who arent....but are still great.

Which is why George Gervin, Pistol Pete, and Patrick Ewing sit right next to MVPs who won multiple rings.

Dirk isnt gonna change that because of some 25/10 playoff average he wont even retire with(and nobody would care if he did). History ****s the non elites. And it always will.

In the long run Melo is Gervin and Dirk is Dave Cowens. Maybe someone who looks close ranks them far apart. But history is unclear and nobody is even having the argument. Because the difference between #26 and #38 doesnt matter.

This is just an argument from public perception. That has nothing to do with reality.

I personally don't think the basketball community in 30 years would remember Dirk/KG and Payton/Melo similarly, but lets ignore that. Even if they did...that would not change reality.

And if you are going to claim that the difference between Dirk and Duncan is the same as the difference between Lebron and Melo...you only can go off of reality...appealing to what public perception may or may not be in the future seems meaningless.

But even now, just factually Dirk is closer to Duncan than Melo is to Lebron on the all time rankings on any list I've ever seen.

When you posted that I thought you were more talking about the matchups in which Melo could possibly play Lebron even or outplay him even though it's clear Lebron is better. Seems like you are more talking about overall games.

Just don't see the evidence for a poor playoff performer like Melo with virtually no playoff success being in the class of a guy like Dirk. Again...just factually that doesn't hold water. And on the rankings...the difference between them all is obvious. Duncan, Lebron top 10 or so (the elites)...Dirk top 25 or so...2nd tier elites. Melo....top 75 maybe...I honestly don't know. I actually think history will remember Melo very poorly unless something changes in his game or his wins a mvp or title.

Put it his way...all of them retiring tomorrow and I could not disagree more with your take that Melo and Dirk will be remembered the same. But again, even that happened, it wouldn't make it true...and nothing would support it. It would just be a wrong public perception.

[branslowski]

You think that I....a person who has been pointing out the lesser known greats here forever...thinks all non top 10 players are meaningless?

I said nothing that could be taken that way.

I said there is one clear level to me. The elites.

After that I have no real need to break guys up into meaningless tiers. Just call them all time greats and leave it there.

And no I dont think Dirk is gonna be terribly more remembered than Melo or that anyone is gonna be too aware of what hes done MVP/title aside. Which as ive explained....for guys not on a dynasty people dont seem that impressed by. Not to the point they dont bump guys who accomplished less up right next to them.

What actually happened and what people thought at the time don't favor in as much as the good story and being flashy and popular.

I point to our own top 100. The ISH list. On that list Pistol Pete is I think top 50 or very close. While Lou Hudson isnt even on it. But Pete...was Lous sidekick. Lou had more playoff success before Pete arrived than Pete had in his career. He was an all star more times....and was respected. While Pete according to his own GM...wasnt wanted by the rest of the league. Which is why he ended up in New Orleans trying to sell tickets for an expansion team next to his alma mater.

But history gives Pete top 50 status and top 20-30 to many. Lou Hudson...only list I ever saw include him was Slams top 500 who had him at 126. And they by the way had Dave Cowens 44 and Gervin 45....not that an MVP winner with 2 rings and great respect from his peers being next to a guy who did nothing but score and lose in the playoffs is in any way suggestive on the Dirk/Melo issue.....


WIthout that hook....that something that stands out...guys like Dirk, Cowens, Reed, Barry, Unseld, Schayes, and yes....one of my favorites...KG...just dont get that longterm love.

Feel free to not like it. I dont much like it.

But in 30 years there will be no great difference between Dirk and Gary Payton. Just two hall of famers. Nobody is gonna care if one is #28 and one is #41 to you(im sure the next 30 years will add some elites).

Only the guys who earned the right to be discussed among the very very best have their spots secure. And as time goes by and that level swells to 15-20 as it will....a few of those wont even be.

People have already started hating on Oscar Robertson while every person who ever put eyes on him in his prime has him top 10 and most top 5-6.

When Oscar starts to fall the Dirks sure as hell arent safe. Know who is safe?

MJ
Kareem
Wilt(Kids on the internet will never take his name out of every GOAT convo not had by them)
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
Kobe
Lebron(in a few years hes pretty untouchable)
Hakeem


And it doesnt even look good for Jerry West. Or Baylor. Moses was forgotten 5 years after he retired. Karl and Barkley are holding on for now and I suspect they will last a good while. Isiah? Eh. Stockton?

Last longer than Dirk. But not by much.

Longterm its just the elites and the guys who arent....but are still great.

Which is why George Gervin, Pistol Pete, and Patrick Ewing sit right next to MVPs who won multiple rings.

Dirk isnt gonna change that because of some 25/10 playoff average he wont even retire with(and nobody would care if he did). History ****s the non elites. And it always will.

In the long run Melo is Gervin and Dirk is Dave Cowens. Maybe someone who looks close ranks them far apart. But history is unclear and nobody is even having the argument. Because the difference between #26 and #38 doesnt matter.

Well said.

Although what will keep Dirk close to being remebered and ranked high is the fact that:

1. His game sometimes look exactly like Larry Bird's (yes It's prob more because they're both tall white skinned shooters, but in reality and perception it is what it is).

2. He beat the Super Team Heat in their first ever Finals together. (Defeating a soon to be top 10 player in LeBron has to be remembered by most).

3. He's one of the most skilled PF of All-time.


Also, he's not nitpicked and hated on like the Kobe's and LeBron's of the world, so no one will remeber him choking and losing to an 8th seed or giving up a 2-0 lead in the Finals...

But also in reality, there's more ppl who know of Melo than they do of Dirk. Melo is just way more popular.

http://www.nba.com/2013/news/04/09/knicks-carmelo-anthony-takes-over-lead-for-top-selling-jersey-april-2013/index.html#$/2013/news/04/09/knicks-carmelo-anthony-takes-over-lead-for-top-selling-jersey-april-2013/index.html

^^^^^^He also topped the league in Jersey sales a few months ago....(1. Melo, 2. LeBron, 3. Durant, 4. Kobe)

[Fresh Kid]

I like dirk, but even I think he's overrated, simply cuz he's a one ring wonder, if melo had a ring he would be better than dirk easily:coleman:

[DirkNowitzki41]

Its sad how underrated dirk is. Top 20 player and melo, pettite have no chance against him. Neither does Kg.

Theres more to dirks career than 2007 and 2011...

[LJJ]

if melo had a ring

http://i.imgur.com/UB1eV.gif

[Scholar]

I can't put Dirk on the same tier as Duncan. Dirk is for sure a more entertaining player, but I think Duncan belongs in the discussion with guys like Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Hakeem & Shaq. Dirk is a great player, but his name doesn't belong up there in the top 10 realm.

[Scholar]

Its sad how underrated dirk is. Top 20 player and melo, pettite have no chance against him. Neither does Kg.

Theres more to dirks career than 2007 and 2011...

I can agree with this. He's definitely a top 20-25 player of all-time. To be honest, I can't really think of too many players I'd pick over Dirk, but we're talking about whether Dirk is on the same tier with Duncan. I strongly doubt it. Duncan is a GOAT candidate (anyone in the top 10 is a candidate, really). Dirk is one of the best players to pick up a basketball, but his name can't be mentioned up there among the GOAT candidates.

[TheBigVeto]

No.
But Dirk is still 2nd GOAT PF after Duncan.

[fandarko]

Dirk has a HUGE edge as an offensive player in general. High volume, way way better overall efficiency.. Both can act as pick setters and play off ball to benefit their teammates.. Wouldn't say one is a much better passer than the other.. Both great rebounders(Dirk in the playoffs).. It really comes down to whether you want a dominant offensive player or a dominant defensive one. Dirk has played Duncan dead even in whole series.. He's OUTPLAYED Kevin garnett...

And somehow he isn't close to Duncan's level? Career wise of course not.. But op seems to be asking if he was ever on his level or better as him.. And he was multiple times

Career wise, Duncan's ahead of Dirk. But in terms of pure basketball skill, he is not a superior player. He certainly is more versatile because of his defensive presence and is thus more desirable than Dirk as a franchise changer, but Dirk is a much better offensive player, an unstoppable killer if you will. Overall, the edge goes to Duncan, but it's a very small edge.

[Kblaze8855]

Career wise, Duncan's ahead of Dirk. But in terms of pure basketball skill, he is not a superior player. He certainly is more versatile because of his defensive presence and is thus more desirable than Dirk as a franchise changer, but Dirk is a much better offensive player, an unstoppable killer if you will. Overall, the edge goes to Duncan, but it's a very small edge.

Unstoppable killer seven footers dont put up 11 points getting eliminated by a team playing 2 points and 3 small forwards. Dirk is unstoppable in isolation when hes hot. But if he could just go 11 WCF at will he would at least have won already in 06 when the Heat stormed back from down 13 in 5 minutes to prevent going down 0-3. He could have made like 3 shots and had 2 rings by now. Or just the FT to force OT but thats a whole other issue.....



Dirk was not more likely than Duncan to get you a shot you needed. Duncan put up 25/15/5 on a 20+ game title run. He was hanging 38/16 games on champions, having near quadruple doubles in the finals, converting important and 1s at a rate ive seen next to nobody match, making threes to force OT, miracle floaters that nobody rememberes because of .4 left, and passing better than Dirk as well. Duncan was always prone to step it up when he had to. Which is a big reason he has 4 rings. Dirk could match or beat his scoring numbers but it wasnt in any kinda unstoppable fashion or in any way that made his team more likely to win.

Duncan was never a volume scorer but 30-40 point games with 12-15 rebounds and 4-5 blocks were not uncommon out of him in his prime in the playoffs.

In 03 he had early playoff games of

15/20/10
23/17/6/5
12/13/7/(blowout win)

Later all these games came in a row:

36/9/5
27/14/5
37/16/4
40/15/7/5
32/15/5/3
34/24/6/6/2
21/20/7/4
23/15/6


Then he had an off night of 18/11 in a big win but bounced back with 32 points, 20 rebounds, 6 assists, 7 blocks, and 3 steals on 65% shooting in game 1 of the finals.

And in games 3-6 he had

21/16/7/3
23/17/7
29/17/4/4
21/20/10/8

Which I suppose makes his 19/12 game 2 easy to forgive....if it needed it.

Duncan in his prime was great at everything. He was great at basketball. Dirk in his prime was a scorer and good but not exceptional rebounder.

He was damn near 30 before he could pass like Duncan could as a rookie. Duncan was better than Dirk at every single aspect of the game but shooting. Guess you could call bal handling a wash. Ive seen both make a move or two but nothing to make a big deal of.

But he had him beat at everything the game asks a player to do other than shoot from distance.

Dirk has a very obvious and amazing skill that makes him appear more skilled than he is to people who probably dont consider defense and non shooting offense skill based.

Dirk is maybe the best tough midrange shot maker in history. He could score 40 on the same people Duncan did. But he isnt just some all around master of the game.

Tim Duncan was great at everything you want out of a title level centerpiece.

Take away any single skill from Duncan hes still probably a 10 time all star instead of 14-15. Knock any single skill Duncan has down to average and hes still going to the HOF. Take away Dirks jumper why is he on the floor? Everything he does is based on him being a threat to shoot. Hes not quick enough to drive on players playing off him. But they cant because he can shoot. Hes not a special rebounder. Play him 38 minutes he will get you 9 like any 7 footer. But hes far from a guy you play....for his rebounding. He was an awful defender and then an underrated one who was above average....but not so much so that you play him for his defense. Hes a good ball handler for his size but not so much so you put the ball in his hands to play point center like Diaw in Phoenix with Nash on the bench. By the time he became a great passer he would have been out of the league minus his jumper.

Which doesnt matter on the bottom line. But it does when the issue is most skilled.

If one skill is the reason you get PT....you arent more skilled than Tim Duncan.

Not like Tim was some jumping jack athlete impacting the game with his physical gifts more than his skill. He was always a good athlete who won with brains and skill.

Skill in everything you can ask a 4 to do.

[tpols]

Dirk averages over 10 rebounds per game in the playoffs. In his prime he gave you an easy 12 every game.. Not Tim Duncan rebounding, but for a perimeter oriented player.. Dirk grabbed boards.

Can't say a 12 rpg player in his prime isn't exceptional. Not Duncan level but better than almost every other PF in the league. Would like to see a list of guys at 10+ per game and routine 12. Guarantee it would be a list of players considered top tier rebounders.. Except for Dirk I guess.


And that analysis has already been done with KG. Better passer, ball handler, rebounder, shot blocker, post defender, finisher, pretty much better than Dirk at everything but shooting. But how did Dirk destroy KG in a series? With that shooting. :oldlol: It eclipsed all of the disadvantages ten fold.

Dirk's shooting is more dominant than any one of the attributes KG or Duncan beats him in. Efficient unstoppable offense is still efficient unstoppable offense even if it is in one very simple form. The most simple form there is..

Being the best big man shooter in the history of the game makes for a combination of offense that is so versatile and unique that it can take over games by itself. Dirk post 05 took relatively weak teams to multiple finals and a ring.. He hung 27/13 to a still fully capable Duncan's 32/11 in 06.

This a guy that can't rebound out rebounding Tim Duncan for an entire 7 game series.



Dirk gives you 27ppg on 60+ percent overall efficiency and double digit boards with clutch ability.

Duncan gives you 22-23 ppg on sub 55 percent overall efficiency, slightly more dominant rebounding, and great Defense.



Dirk's advantage in shooting singlehandedly makes him a far more dominant offensive player by any metric. So it doesn't matter if it's just shooting if he can dominate games with it.

[SpurrDurr]

Dirk averages over 10 rebounds per game in the playoffs. In his prime he gave you an easy 12 every game.. Not Tim Duncan rebounding, but for a perimeter oriented player.. Dirk grabbed boards.

Can't say a 12 rpg player in his prime isn't exceptional. Not Duncan level but better than almost every other PF in the league. Would like to see a list of guys at 10+ per game and routine 12. Guarantee it would be a list of players considered top tier rebounders.. Except for Dirk I guess.


And that analysis has already been done with KG. Better passer, ball handler, rebounder, shot blocker, post defender, finisher, pretty much better than Dirk at everything but shooting. But how did Dirk destroy KG in a series? With that shooting. :oldlol: It eclipsed all of the disadvantages ten fold.

Dirk's shooting is more dominant than any one of the attributes KG or Duncan beats him in. Efficient unstoppable offense is still efficient unstoppable offense even if it is in one very simple form. The most simple form there is..

Being the best big man shooter in the history of the game makes for a combination of offense that is so versatile and unique that it can take over games by itself. Dirk post 05 took relatively weak teams to multiple finals and a ring.. He hung 27/13 to a still fully capable Duncan's 32/11 in 06.

This a guy that can't rebound out rebounding Tim Duncan for an entire 7 game series.



Dirk gives you 27ppg on 60+ percent overall efficiency and double digit boards with clutch ability.

Duncan gives you 22-23 ppg on sub 55 percent overall efficiency, slightly more dominant rebounding, and great Defense.



Dirk's advantage in shooting singlehandedly makes him a far more dominant offensive player by any metric. So it doesn't matter if it's just shooting if he can dominate games with it.

I agree that Dirk is a better offensive player but Duncan FG% is way higher than Dirk either in regular season and playoffs while Dirk beasts him in free throw shooting. I don't take into consideration Tim 3pt % since he averaged less than 10 attempts per season.

[tpols]

I agree that Dirk is a better offensive player but Duncan FG% is way higher than Dirk either in regular season and playoffs while Dirk beasts him in free throw shooting. I don't take into consideration Tim 3pt % since he averaged less than 10 attempts per season.
Yea Duncan has higher FG, but Dirk shoots like Nash from 3 and at the FT line which gives him overall better efficiency

[Kblaze8855]

Dirk averages over 10 rebounds per game in the playoffs. In his prime he gave you an easy 12 every game.. Not Tim Duncan rebounding, but for a perimeter oriented player.. Dirk grabbed boards.

Can't say a 12 rpg player in his prime isn't exceptional. Not Duncan level but better than almost every other PF in the league. Would like to see a list of guys at 10+ per game and routine 12. Guarantee it would be a list of players considered top tier rebounders.. Except for Dirk I guess.


Dirk has averaged LESS than 9 rebounds in 9 seasons. 10 really but im not counting his rookie season. And exactly at 9 in one of the others. For 10 years....a decade of seasons...Dirk is 9 or less. Calling him a 12 rebound a game player like elite rebounders actually are because he averaged it exactly 2 times in the playoffs(8 and 5 game runs) in a 15 year career is like calling Lamar Odom a 19/11 player because it happened in the playoffs....before.

Tim Duncan was actually a 12-13 rebound a game player. You know...while playing basketball in the world that actually exists.




And that analysis has already been done with KG. Better passer, ball handler, rebounder, shot blocker, post defender, finisher, pretty much better than Dirk at everything but shooting. But how did Dirk destroy KG in a series? With that shooting. :oldlol: It eclipsed all of the disadvantages ten fold.

Dirk's shooting is more dominant than any one of the attributes KG or Duncan beats him in. Efficient unstoppable offense is still efficient unstoppable offense even if it is in one very simple form. The most simple form there is..

Being the best big man shooter in the history of the game makes for a combination of offense that is so versatile and unique that it can take over games by itself. Dirk post 05 took relatively weak teams to multiple finals and a ring.. He hung 27/13 to a still fully capable Duncan's 32/11 in 06.

This a guy that can't rebound out rebounding Tim Duncan for an entire 7 game series.



Dirk gives you 27ppg on 60+ percent overall efficiency and double digit boards with clutch ability.

Duncan gives you 22-23 ppg on sub 55 percent overall efficiency, slightly more dominant rebounding, and great Defense.



Dirk's advantage in shooting singlehandedly makes him a far more dominant offensive player by any metric. So it doesn't matter if it's just shooting if he can dominate games with it.


Let me know if I took this the wrong way since im hoping I did...

You telling me Dirk is more dominant than Tim Duncan because of his shooting?

That what all that bolded bit means? His shooting is more dominant than anything Duncan does?

Let me know if I understood you there before I reply because im fairly sure there has to be a misunderstanding.

I seem to remember Duncan winning...quite a bit. On teams that depended on him...utterly...on both ends. But im gonna wait for clarity.

And either way...

Lets say his shooting does make him more effective(and it doesnt)....

How would it make him more skilled?

Hate to go to the old standby but...Shaq. Underrated skills....but hes not as skilled as a gang of people less effective.

Would that make it untrue to say those more skilled players....are more skilled?

What does skill mean to you when one guy has more basketball ability than another guy at EVERY aspect of the sport but one....but you still call the other guy more skilled?

I feel like we need a new word here.

If im a better passer than the next guy...who is a better shooter, ball handler, rebounder, man to man and off the ball defender, and post player.....

If I use my passing to lead my team to 50 wins and his team wins 34...

Am I more skilled?

Or do we just need to split skill up from being effective and not use one to measure the other?

[rmt]

Dirk has averaged LESS than 9 rebounds in 9 seasons. 10 really but im not counting his rookie season. And exactly at 9 in one of the others. For 10 years....a decade of seasons...Dirk is 9 or less. Calling him a 12 rebound a game player like elite rebounders actually are because he averaged it exactly 2 times in the playoffs(8 and 5 game runs) in a 15 year career is like calling Lamar Odom a 19/11 player because it happened in the playoffs....before.

Tim Duncan was actually a 12-13 rebound a game player. You know...while playing basketball in the world that actually exists.




Let me know if I took this the wrong way since im hoping I did...

You telling me Dirk is more dominant than Tim Duncan because of his shooting?

That what all that bolded bit means? His shooting is more dominant than anything Duncan does?

Let me know if I understood you there before I reply because im fairly sure there has to be a misunderstanding.

I seem to remember Duncan winning...quite a bit. On teams that depended on him...utterly...on both ends. But im gonna wait for clarity.

And either way...

Lets say his shooting does make him more effective(and it doesnt)....

How would it make him more skilled?

Hate to go to the old standby but...Shaq. Underrated skills....but hes not as skilled as a gang of people less effective.

Would that make it untrue to say those more skilled players....are more skilled?

What does skill mean to you when one guy has more basketball ability than another guy at EVERY aspect of the sport but one....but you still call the other guy more skilled?

I feel like we need a new word here.

If im a better passer than the next guy...who is a better shooter, ball handler, rebounder, man to man and off the ball defender, and post player.....

If I use my passing to lead my team to 50 wins and his team wins 34...

Am I more skilled?

Or do we just need to split skill up from being effective and not use one to measure the other?

Don't mind Tpols. This is the same argument he uses with Kobe. There is no replacing a big man who is great on BOTH sides of the floor. People can break down skill for skill all they want - in the end, it's what impact the player has on the both sides of the floor (defense is after all half of the game). And players like Duncan (or KG) who impact both ends of the court are rare. The skills argument ends with Shaq.

[tpols]

Dirk has averaged LESS than 9 rebounds in 9 seasons. 10 really but im not counting his rookie season. And exactly at 9 in one of the others. For 10 years....a decade of seasons...Dirk is 9 or less. Calling him a 12 rebound a game player like elite rebounders actually are because he averaged it exactly 2 times in the playoffs(8 and 5 game runs) in a 15 year career is like calling Lamar Odom a 19/11 player because it happened in the playoffs....before.

Tim Duncan was actually a 12-13 rebound a game player. You know...while playing basketball in the world that actually exists.




Let me know if I took this the wrong way since im hoping I did...

You telling me Dirk is more dominant than Tim Duncan because of his shooting?

That what all that bolded bit means? His shooting is more dominant than anything Duncan does?

Let me know if I understood you there before I reply because im fairly sure there has to be a misunderstanding.

I seem to remember Duncan winning...quite a bit. On teams that depended on him...utterly...on both ends. But im gonna wait for clarity.

And either way...

Lets say his shooting does make him more effective(and it doesnt)....

How would it make him more skilled?

Hate to go to the old standby but...Shaq. Underrated skills....but hes not as skilled as a gang of people less effective.

Would that make it untrue to say those more skilled players....are more skilled?

What does skill mean to you when one guy has more basketball ability than another guy at EVERY aspect of the sport but one....but you still call the other guy more skilled?

I feel like we need a new word here.

If im a better passer than the next guy...who is a better shooter, ball handler, rebounder, man to man and off the ball defender, and post player.....

If I use my passing to lead my team to 50 wins and his team wins 34...

Am I more skilled?

Or do we just need to split skill up from being effective and not use one to measure the other?
I said rebounding in the playoffs.. If you look at Dirk's regular season numbers, and then his playoff numbers, scoring rebounding anything you look at.. Everything goes up.

It is very very obvious that Dirk either has an extra gear he can flip on for the playoffs or he just cruises through the regular season. Either way, I'm going to look at how he performed when it actually mattered.. And in his prime he was a double digit rebounding lock and routinely was one of the highest rebounders in the playoffs year after year.


As far as Dirk's shooting being more dominant than any one of Duncan's or kgs skills, it's true. I'm taking Dirk's shooting over the marginal 2 rpg difference in their playoff career rebounding. I'm taking that shooting over their defense.. Rather take my chances finding a Tyson Chandler type player than a guy who can get me 25+ on 60 TS.. That just doesn't happen often. In the past decade you have Shaq, LeBron, Dirk and Durant to eclipse that. It's not something that's easily replaceable. And Dirk was the most efficient one out of all four of those guys(so far) in the playoffs. And the most clutch.

I'm not saying Dirk's shooting makes him better than Duncan. I'm saying Dirk's shooting is more dominant than any one skill Duncan shows promise in. Overall they really are close impact players.. We've seen them play head to head in the playoffs, both in their primes, and they pretty much played each other to a draw.

Duncan has had better teams and coaching and an overall more stable system than Dirk. I'm not sure Dirk ever wins in 03.. But his offense alone from 05-11 could've netted the Spurs 2+ rings easy. The team has been stacked with talent and perfectly coached and gelled for the longest time.


As far as your hypothetical goes it doesn't matter whose more skilled..

I fear not the man who has practiced 1000 kicks once, but the man who has practiced one kick 1000 times
-Bruce lee

I'll take the guy who can dominate the game in any one way to elevate his team over the guy who does everything at an average level(this doesn't really apply to Duncan as much as it does to your hypothetical since there never was that big a disparity in wins between the two)

[Kblaze8855]

When the question is who is more skilled how is "it doesn't matter" an answer? Just say nothing if you don't care what the answer is. I never said the more skilledplayer is always better. But we don't need to pretend the skills don't exist and not answer the question.

You even read the post i replied to in the first place?

Far as the rest....I'm on my phone at the moment. May get back to that later

[tpols]

When the question is who is more skilled how is "it doesn't matter" an answer? Just say nothing if you don't care what the answer is. I never said the more skilledplayer is always better. But we don't need to pretend the skills don't exist and not answer the question.

You even read the post i replied to in the first place?

Far as the rest....I'm on my phone at the moment. May get back to that later
Maybe I shouldn't have said it doesn't matter.. I was thinking impact not how many skills you can accumulate.

Guess I should've said I'll take the guy with genius in one subject than above average in all.

I believe it takes more diligence patience thinking to master one thing..

[Carbine]

If you think replacing Duncan with Dirk from 05-11 is 2 rings easy..... you don't understand defense.

'05 - you really think a Dirk/Nesterovic/ front court gets it done? They go from the best defense to middle of the pack. They won because they could win games on both ends.

'06 - same story

'07 - same story, except now it would be Francisi Elson/Oberto/Dirk front court

'08 - Same story, but just Oberto/Dirk in the front court

'09 - Matt Bonner/Kurt Thomas/Dirk front court

'10 - Blair/Bonner/Mcdyess/Dirk front court

'11 - Add Splitter

The theme of this.....is every year they are soft as hell up front. Do you know how hard it is to win and not be good on defense? Have soft ass front courts like those listed above?

But they would win 2 easily....

[tpols]

You're assuming the smartest best run FO in the entire league would build around Dirk in the exact same way they'd build around Duncan. :facepalm

They couldve spent money on some tough big men instead of all the shooters they signed.. A void Dirk would very easily fill.

[Carbine]

Maybe I shouldn't have said it doesn't matter.. I was thinking impact not how many skills you can accumulate.

Guess I should've said I'll take the guy with genius in one subject than above average in all.

I believe it takes more diligence patience thinking to master one thing..

If this pertains to Duncan/Dirk....

Since when is Duncans total defense above average? He's arguably the best anchor of his era.

His rebounding, elite.

His total offensive IMPACT, elite (a tier below the best of all time)

Duncan is a genius in one subject, and elite in the other two. Dirk is a genius in one subject, very good in another and borderline failed the third subject.

[tpols]

If this pertains to Duncan/Dirk....

Since when is Duncans total defense above average? He's arguably the best anchor of his era.

His rebounding, elite.

His total offensive IMPACT, elite (a tier below the best of all time)

Duncan is a genius in one subject, and elite in the other two. Dirk is a genius in one subject, very good in another and borderline failed the third subject.
No it doesn't apply to them.. Kblaze had a hypothetical where a great passer led a team to 50 wins and a guy better at eve thing else led his team to 30 wins.

[miles berg]

Look, I'm the biggest Dirk fan probably in the entire world, he is amazing, he is underrated, he is better than most players that he is compared to...

...but not Duncan. Duncan is Magic/Shaq/Larry/Hakeem level good.

Dirk is definitely in the next tier, top 20 all time.

But Duncan? Duncan is a lock for the top 10 players all time.

[RRR3]

ITT: Tpols and Silkk propping up Dirk to make their boys (Kobe and LBJ) look better for getting destroyed by Nowitzki in 2011 :oldlol: :oldlol:

[SilkkTheShocker]

ITT: Tpols and Silkk propping up Dirk to make their boys (Kobe and LBJ) look better for getting destroyed by Nowitzki in 2011 :oldlol: :oldlol:

Are you serious? I have said numerous times that Dirk's championship team is one of the weakest of all-times. If I had a Dirk agenda I would be talking about how stacked they were. That isn't the case. That team was nothing special on paper.

Don't make me post your pics. :oldlol: We all know what happened last time

[IGOTGAME]

You're assuming the smartest best run FO in the entire league would build around Dirk in the exact same way they'd build around Duncan. :facepalm

They couldve spent money on some tough big men instead of all the shooters they signed.. A void Dirk would very easily fill.

Dirk is way harder to build a team around then Duncan, add in the fact that Duncan had 0 post game for a long time.

[IGOTGAME]

Duncan's post game was always above average brah.
Typo. Meant to say dirk brah.

[TheMarkMadsen]

ITT: Tpols and Silkk propping up Dirk to make their boys (Kobe and LBJ) look better for getting destroyed by Nowitzki in 2011 :oldlol: :oldlol:


IMO for lakers fans 2011 is..easily forgotten.

Coming off 3 finals, 2 rings. PJ looked ready to go at the beginning of the season, Pau all but gave up in the playoffs, Kobe was looking older than ever and the Mavs were ON FIRE, Teryy shot 69% from 3 and Peja was on fire aswell while Dirk was Dirk

It was easier to take than most playoff exits

[TheMarkMadsen]

Are you serious? I have said numerous times that Dirk's championship team is one of the weakest of all-times. If I had a Dirk agenda I would be talking about how stacked they were. That isn't the case. That team was nothing special on paper.

Don't make me post your pics. :oldlol: We all know what happened last time


Is that how insecure you are? Somebody says your boasting Dirk to prop up Lebron and you respond by threatening to post real life pics..

That escalated quickly didn't it? Must have hit a button with you..

Do you have any real life pictures of yourself? Probably not since that would require somebody wanting to be around you long enough to actually take a picture

[SilkkTheShocker]

Is that how insecure you are? Somebody says your boasting Dirk to prop up Lebron and you respond by threatening to post real life pics..

That escalated quickly didn't it? Must have hit a button with you..

Do you have any real life pictures of yourself? Probably not since that would require somebody wanting to be around you long enough to actually take a picture

So you....

1. Write a paragraph in response to something that had nothing to do with you
2. You got mad enough to personally attack me

Looks like im in your head still.

[Carbine]

You're assuming the smartest best run FO in the entire league would build around Dirk in the exact same way they'd build around Duncan. :facepalm

They couldve spent money on some tough big men instead of all the shooters they signed.. A void Dirk would very easily fill.

The Mavs tried to find a defensive center for years and none of them won a title until Chandler came.

What makes you think the Spurs would have any more luck? you call them the smartest, best run FO in the entire league.....which they are, but they're not immune to making huge mistakes either.....

Go back and see what they did with a gigantic amount of cap space in the summer of 2003 after winning a title and get back to me.

They let Scola go for nothing.

It's far from a given that a maxed out cap, small market team can go out and find themselves a Chandler type center for Dirk.

[Fresh Kid]

Are you serious? I have said numerous times that Dirk's championship team is one of the weakest of all-times. If I had a Dirk agenda I would be talking about how stacked they were. That isn't the case. That team was nothing special on paper.

Don't make me post your pics. :oldlol: We all know what happened last time
how iz dirk 2011 championship one of tha weakest bro? how?:lol

[Pointguard]

Dirk averages over 10 rebounds per game in the playoffs. In his prime he gave you an easy 12 every game.. Not Tim Duncan rebounding, but for a perimeter oriented player.. Dirk grabbed boards.

Can't say a 12 rpg player in his prime isn't exceptional. Not Duncan level but better than almost every other PF in the league. Would like to see a list of guys at 10+ per game and routine 12. Guarantee it would be a list of players considered top tier rebounders.. Except for Dirk I guess.


And that analysis has already been done with KG. Better passer, ball handler, rebounder, shot blocker, post defender, finisher, pretty much better than Dirk at everything but shooting. But how did Dirk destroy KG in a series? With that shooting. :oldlol: It eclipsed all of the disadvantages ten fold.

Dirk's shooting is more dominant than any one of the attributes KG or Duncan beats him in. Efficient unstoppable offense is still efficient unstoppable offense even if it is in one very simple form. The most simple form there is..

Being the best big man shooter in the history of the game makes for a combination of offense that is so versatile and unique that it can take over games by itself. Dirk post 05 took relatively weak teams to multiple finals and a ring.. He hung 27/13 to a still fully capable Duncan's 32/11 in 06.

This a guy that can't rebound out rebounding Tim Duncan for an entire 7 game series.



Dirk gives you 27ppg on 60+ percent overall efficiency and double digit boards with clutch ability.

Duncan gives you 22-23 ppg on sub 55 percent overall efficiency, slightly more dominant rebounding, and great Defense.



Dirk's advantage in shooting singlehandedly makes him a far more dominant offensive player by any metric. So it doesn't matter if it's just shooting if he can dominate games with it.
During Dirks career he's rarely been an elite scorer in the league. He was never the scorer Durant has been the past three years who is very clutch and more efficient from the field. Never had scoring years like Barley or Malone who were far better rebounders. Barkley was a more explosive scorer as well.

[Sarcastic]

Dirk ends his career with 0 rings, and this isn't even a question if Lebron didn't tank 2011 for fear of Wade winning FMVP. That choke job ended up boosting Dirk's career way more than it ever shoud've been.

[Legends66NBA7]

how iz dirk 2011 championship one of tha weakest bro? how?:lol

Why don't you actually explain why they aren't a weak championship team ?

There are only 3 I see worse and that's the 75 Warriors, 94 Rockets, and 03 Spurs. Mavericks are overall more better because of their veteran presence, IMO, than those teams and it's pretty close between the 94 Rockets and 03 Spurs.

75 Warriors might be the weakest overall championship team.


Dirk ends his career with 0 rings, and this isn't even a question if Lebron didn't tank 2011 for fear of Wade winning FMVP. That choke job ended up boosting Dirk's career way more than it ever shoud've been.

It's not a real question to begin with, but it's more than debate with other PF's that he gets compared too.