Patrick Ewing - most overrated player of all time?

[Connor B]

David Lee stats, good though not incredible defense, only one first team all NBA, no MVPs, no rings, simply a college player turned very good though never amazing pro.

What's the big deal on this guy? I'd take prime Pau, Duncan at center, etc. over him always.

[Legends66NBA7]

ISH, where Pau Gasol would be taken over Patrick Ewing and a 29/11/4blk on 55%fg with great defense at the best peak... is considered "never amazing".



It's fine to saying Ewing was overrated (I don't think he's the most overrated, though), but a lot of what was written was just shock value.

[Young X]

You can't be serious, he hardly ever gets talked about anymore and when he does people just focus on his shortcomings instead of remembering how great he was. There's literally no argument for him being underrated, it's actually the other way around. :facepalm

[SilkkTheShocker]

More like most underrated. His second option for several seasons was John Starks. He was out of his prime once Houston, Sprewell, LJ, and Camby came aboard. Ewing wasnt a joke. Old, hobbled Ewing outplayed a prime Zo.

[ProfessorMurder]

:roll: Get the f*ck out of here you 8 year old. Nobody talks about him.

Prime Ewing would be the best player in the league right now... At worst, second best.

[Miserio]

Injuries ****ed him, in the 80s he was ridiculous.

[Patrick Chewing]

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/masonry/000/423/672/667.gif

[plowking]

:roll: Get the f*ck out of here you 8 year old. Nobody talks about him.

Prime Ewing would be the best player in the league right now... At worst, second best.

I was agreeing with everyone at how underrated he was, and then you throw this shit out there. Best in the league? GTFO you nothing.

[OldSkoolball#52]

Injuries ****ed him, in the 80s he was ridiculous.

Maybe thats part of it, because Im inclined to agree with OP based on what IVE seen of Ewing, which was pretty much all 90s Ewing. I dont know what the stats say, I always thought what I saw on the court was less impactful than what the hype would have you expect. Similar to how I always felt bout Jermaine O'neal except obviously Ewing was > JO.

[ProfessorMurder]

I was agreeing with everyone at how underrated he was, and then you throw this shit out there. Best in the league? GTFO you nothing.

Best or second best. Read much? He'd be in MVP talks every season.

He'd tear through every big out there right now.

[Xiao Yao You]

He was/is overrated but he was one of the top scorers in the league in his day. He wasn't the all around player that Hakeem and Robinson were though.

[Patrick Chewing]

He was/is overrated


Explain.


All he did was win in New York.

[Twiens]

I was agreeing with everyone at how underrated he was, and then you throw this shit out there. Best in the league? GTFO you nothing.

With the lack of quality bigs these days, its possible

[OldSkoolball#52]

Explain.


All he did was win in New York.


They managed to win without him at times in the playofs as well though, hence Bill Simmons' "Ewing Theory" that sometimes guys who do the "visible" things in the stat sheet get more credit than what their true impact is. Similar to how Denver was the same team without Carmelo, the Lakers have been the same team when Kobe is out etc.

[Trentknicks]

They managed to win without him at times in the playofs as well though, hence Bill Simmons' "Ewing Theory" that sometimes guys who do the "visible" things in the stat sheet get more credit than what their true impact is. Similar to how Denver was the same team without Carmelo, the Lakers have been the same team when Kobe is out etc.
I know Silk will destroy you for your post but this is really the definition of a poster who just reiterates the garbage posted on this board and never watched.

Knicks do not beat the Heat in 99 without Ewing, he was battling through injuries and held his own, if not outplayed a prime Alonzo Mourning at the time. Knicks got to a 1-1 series against Indiana in the ECF with Ewing and did manage to win another 3 games against them without Ewing. This was due to the clash in styles and the fact that Ewing sitting enabled the more mobile Camby, LJ & Kurt Thomas to play in the front court and the quicker pace enabled them to beat the Pacers.

Ewing was a warrior in every sense of the word and it's a shame posters like you are allowed to voice your recycled, misinformed garbage opinions on the issue.

[lucky001]

Rated just fine.

90's Centers.

Shaq > Hakeem > drob >= ewing >zo

Ewing and drob are interchageable

[Xiao Yao You]

Explain.


All he did was win in New York.

He was always put up with Hakeem and Robinson. He wasn't the all-around player that they were. 2nd tier in his day.

[Xiao Yao You]

Rated just fine.

90's Centers.

Shaq > Hakeem > drob >= ewing >zo

Ewing and drob are interchageable

Personally I'd put him with Zo. Zo was a better defensive player. Not as good offensively. I thought Daugherty was comparable too in his short run. Highly underrated.

[Patrick Chewing]

They managed to win without him at times in the playofs as well though


Just that one year though. Early through mid-90's, Knicks don't contend for title without him. He battled with Shaq, Pacers, and a resurgent Heat and still whooped them.

[OldSkoolball#52]

I know Silk will destroy you for your post but this is really the definition of a poster who just reiterates the garbage posted on this board and never watched.

Knicks do not beat the Heat in 99 without Ewing, he was battling through injuries and held his own, if not outplayed a prime Alonzo Mourning at the time. Knicks got to a 1-1 series against Indiana in the ECF with Ewing and did manage to win another 3 games against them without Ewing. This was due to the clash in styles and the fact that Ewing sitting enabled the more mobile Camby, LJ & Kurt Thomas to play in the front court and the quicker pace enabled them to beat the Pacers.

Ewing was a warrior in every sense of the word and it's a shame posters like you are allowed to voice your recycled, misinformed garbage opinions on the issue.



Youre throwing a temper tantrum because someone objectively thinks a bit less of a guy who plays for the team you shamelessly homer for than you do...


Are you by any chance 11 years old?

[OldSkoolball#52]

Just that one year though. Early through mid-90's, Knicks don't contend for title without him. He battled with Shaq, Pacers, and a resurgent Heat and still whooped them.


Yeah, I dont mean to in any way suggest he was some average role player or anything.

But as others mentioned, because of his era hes often placed with guys like Jordan, Hakeem, Robinson. I never personally thought him to be on THAT level.

[Trentknicks]

He was always put up with Hakeem and Robinson. He wasn't the all-around player that they were. 2nd tier in his day.
I know you enter every single Knicks thread, ever, with a negative opinion at the ready, but what puts Ewing behind Robinson?

He may not have been the passer Robinson was, but he had a more diverse offensive skillset and NEVER bitched it like Robinson did against Hakeem in 95. I've read Rodman's book and he stated several times that Robinson would complain and bitch to the Spurs coaching staff that he needed more help with Hakeem and even asked to switch and let Rodman take him.

Ewing led offensively retarded to the finals and were perennial contenders in a utterly stacked Eastern Conference at the time. Robinson never won anything as a first option and truthfully never achieved all that much without Duncan coming on board and leading the team. If you take away the 2 titles Duncan led Robinson too, there's no fragment of a legitimate argument to put Robinson ahead of Ewing.

[Trentknicks]

Youre throwing a temper tantrum because someone objectively thinks a bit less of a guy who plays for the team you shamelessly homer for than you do...


Are you by any chance 11 years old?
Im actually 29 and grew up watching Ewing in the 90s as a teenager. I frequently watched Ewing at the Garden, I'm not throwing a temper tantrum.

It's just clear you never actually watched him at any real length if your just reiterating a silly theory put forward by Simmons.

[Xiao Yao You]

I know you enter every single Knicks thread, ever, with a negative opinion at the ready

It's negative to say he was one of the best scorers in the game but not up with Hakeem and Robinson? Ewing>Carmelo. Is that negative too?


there's no fragment of a legitimate argument to put Robinson ahead of Ewing.

Superior numbers and game would be an argument.

[bizil]

Big Pat was a pure beast. His mix of inside dominance offensively and defensively, physicality, and midrange shooting and ranks right at the top of any center EVER! Hakeem, David, and Patrick were all beasts, but I feel Pat was the toughest and most physically intimidating. Peak value wise, I would say Hakeem and David were better. But no way in hell Pat is overrated. If anything slightly underrated as time goes on. He wasn't as athletic or fun to watch has Hakeem or David. But Pat was still a beast athletically and the meanest of the bunch. For most of Pat's prime was FIRMLY at top 10 player in the L no question. One of the premier 5-6 players EVER to never win a world title or MVP.

[tpols]

It's negative to say he was one of the best scorers in the game but not up with Hakeem and Robinson? Ewing>Carmelo. Is that negative too?



Superior numbers and game would be an argument.
Except robinson chokes and underfperforms in the playoffs, while Ewing plays like a warrior with tons of heart every game and of course outperforms him where it matters for their careers.


You wouldnt happen to be a big karl malone fan would you? I can see why you like robinson. :oldlol:

[andgar923]

So now he doesn't play defense?:facepalm

He was the anchor of one of the greatest defensive teams ever!

He was great at switching, playing screens, blocking shots, grabbing rebounds, his intensity was matched by very few. They consider this man a 'warrior' for a reason.

His injuries robbed him of his athleticism, but even then he was a beast.

Fools

[eliteballer]

89, 27 years old: 29 ppg, 11 rpg, 4 bpg. That was what he was before his knees gave out.

..and Robinson was clearly better than he ever was in that 94-96 stretch.

[bizil]

He was always put up with Hakeem and Robinson. He wasn't the all-around player that they were. 2nd tier in his day.

He wasn't second tier, just a bit behind those guys. Hakeem and David were as athletic and skilled as many SF's in the L. Pat was very athletic for a 7 footer but not like David and Hakeem. Plus when u combine scoring, defense, and boards, Pat was on their level in terms of numbers. It just came down to the athletic gifts and skills David and Hakeem had. U are talking the two most athletic and versatile centers ever in David and Hakeem. They could do things other 7 footers couldn't do. But Pat was on their tier. Second tier is guys like Sikma, Parish, etc.

[sportjames23]

You can't be serious, he hardly ever gets talked about anymore and when he does people just focus on his shortcomings instead of remembering how great he was. There's literally no argument for him being underrated, it's actually the other way around. :facepalm


Beat me to it. If anything, Ewing is criminally underrated now.

I remember when Ewing was considered as good as, or even better than, Olajuwon. Dream only moved past Ewing and Robinson in most experts eyes due to his back-to-back titles in '94 & '95. But who knows how things would've turned out if Starks didn't shit the bed in Game 7 in 1994. Yes, that series went seven games, with the final game being played in Houston, and the Rockets had to pull away at the end.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_NBA_Finals

[Xiao Yao You]

Except robinson chokes and underfperforms in the playoffs, while Ewing plays like a warrior with tons of heart every game and of course outperforms him where it matters for their careers.

You wouldnt happen to be a big karl malone fan would you? I can see why you like robinson. :oldlol:

No Karl was a choker and a child molester and an asshole by most accounts.


Plus when u combine scoring, defense, and boards

He wasn't the rebounder that they were.

[iamgine]

He wasn't second tier, just a bit behind those guys. Hakeem and David were as athletic and skilled as many SF's in the L. Pat was very athletic for a 7 footer but not like David and Hakeem. Plus when u combine scoring, defense, and boards, Pat was on their level in terms of numbers. It just came down to the athletic gifts and skills David and Hakeem had. U are talking the two most athletic and versatile centers ever in David and Hakeem. They could do things other 7 footers couldn't do. But Pat was on their tier. Second tier is guys like Sikma, Parish, etc.
Wouldn't Sikma, Parish, etc just be on the third tier? :lol

[GrapeApe]

On a related note, it's amazing the impact one game can have on a player's legacy (or the perception of it). If the Knicks win game 7 in '94, both Ewing and Hakeem would be viewed completely differently. I always respected Ewing despite hating the Knicks with every fiber of my being.

[Trollsmasher]

He was great, but his team and the league generally were too weak to oppose the stacked juggernauts from Chicago.

[Owl]

I know you enter every single Knicks thread, ever, with a negative opinion at the ready, but what puts Ewing behind Robinson?

He may not have been the passer Robinson was, but he had a more diverse offensive skillset and NEVER bitched it like Robinson did against Hakeem in 95. I've read Rodman's book and he stated several times that Robinson would complain and bitch to the Spurs coaching staff that he needed more help with Hakeem and even asked to switch and let Rodman take him.

Ewing led offensively retarded to the finals and were perennial contenders in a utterly stacked Eastern Conference at the time. Robinson never won anything as a first option and truthfully never achieved all that much without Duncan coming on board and leading the team. If you take away the 2 titles Duncan led Robinson too, there's no fragment of a legitimate argument to put Robinson ahead of Ewing.
Apart from more MVP shares, more/better All NBA selections, better stats, aged better and has consistently ranked as better than Ewing in GOAT lists (e.g. Pete Vecsey, Athlon, Elliot Kalb, Lacy Banks, Keith Thompson, Slam, Bill Simmons and Beckett).

Or if you want on court things: better passer, better shot blocker, better stealer, better defender in general, better scorer, better at drawing fouls and better rebounder.

"Offensively retarded" is both untrue and irrelevant because what's relevent is how good they were overall. Starks, Harper, Oakley and Mason were all probably above average starters at their position and very good defenders.

The Rodman stuff is hilarious because
a) you believe Dennis Rodman is a credible source
and
b) having brought brought up the Houston series for Robinson, you neglect to mention how the Knicks decided to let Anthony Mason (you know, Ewing's rubbish, useless scrub teammate from his awful supporting cast) cover Olajuwon.

Stuff like "Ewing took his team to the finals, Robinson's teams didn't go anywhere" c'mon they were both eliminated by Houston. All you're doing there is rewarding Ewing for playing in a weaker (at the top) conference.

Anyway generally I don't think Ewing is overrated except by those who think he is in the same league a Robinson. A simple look at their accolades playing in much the same time period confirms who was better and their advanced stats suggest it wasn't particularly close. Most (semi-recent) published rankings put him in the 30-40 all-time range (as time passes generally closer to 40) and that's probably the right ballpark for him.

I'll leave it there because I don't like to argue with people on topics included in their names because they tend not to be impartial (not a shot at anyone, just my experience).


Big Pat was a pure beast. His mix of inside dominance offensively and defensively, physicality, and midrange shooting and ranks right at the top of any center EVER! Hakeem, David, and Patrick were all beasts, but I feel Pat was the toughest and most physically intimidating. Peak value wise, I would say Hakeem and David were better. But no way in hell Pat is overrated. If anything slightly underrated as time goes on. He wasn't as athletic or fun to watch has Hakeem or David. But Pat was still a beast athletically and the meanest of the bunch. For most of Pat's prime was FIRMLY at top 10 player in the L no question. One of the premier 5-6 players EVER to never win a world title or MVP.
It depends on where you draw the tiers, and "toughest" is a bit, well how much of that is scowling, how much is anything that made a (positive) impact on the court. Not that he wasn't tough, but how did it manifest itself in a way that led to wins. But he was indeed consistently and clearly a top 10 player for a quite a while and frequently a top 5. He was unfortunate in his timing in terms of only getting 1 All-NBA first team due to Olajuwon and Robinson.

Baylor (technically has a ring but usually counted for these purposes), K Malone, Stockton, Barkley...
yeah Ewing's top 5 non-title winners. I'd put him ahead of Gervin, Iverson and Wilkins (who only positively impacted the game at one end).

Sad to say but Nash might be a contender for that list soon.

[JtotheIzzo]

Can we ban these dumb f*cking kids who start hate threads about players they have never seen?

This type of shit angers up the blood.

[Akhenaten]

Can we ban these dumb f*cking kids who start hate threads about players they have never seen?

This type of shit angers up the blood.


94 Finals:

19ppg on 23 FGA 36% FG :bowdown:

[SilkkTheShocker]

:roll: Get the f*ck out of here you 8 year old. Nobody talks about him.

Prime Ewing would be the best player in the league right now... At worst, second best.


Wow. Terrible post

[SilkkTheShocker]

With the lack of quality bigs these days, its possible

It's possible if LeBron died. That's about it.

[ProfessorMurder]

Wow. Terrible post

Wow, terrible response.

[guy]

He's very underrated if anything. He wasn't on the level of Jordan or Hakeem in his era, but he's generally considered part of the Drexler/Stockton/Payton level when he should probably be considered part of the Barkley/Malone/Robinson level. No one ever even talks about him now unless its to talk about how Jordan or Hakeem embarrassed him or to call the 90s Knicks overrated.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Wow, terrible response.

Not really. Your first comment was beyond stupid. But you tend to make a lot of those kind of comments. Ewing best player today? Dumb.

[Marchesk]

Not really. Your first comment was beyond stupid. But you tend to make a lot of those kind of comments. Ewing best player today? Dumb.

Top 5 though.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Top 5 though.

I would go as far as top 3 even. Ewing is vastly underrated.

[Dagouch]

Ewing had some battles back in the day. Their were times his shot was off but he always brought that intensity each and every game he played.

He was at times was underappreciated by Fans in NY but he did the best with what he was given.

Prime Ewing Today would be beasting on this so called Centers of today.

[Marchesk]

I would go as far as top 3 even. Ewing is vastly underrated.

What? Ewing > Melo? Say it isn't so.

[HurricaneKid]

Georgetown Ewing was one of the best college players ever. He came in to the NBA with such hype that 28 years later people accuse Stern of rigging the draft. A lot of people simply felt that his career didn't match the expectations he came into the league with. He was a very very good player but played on some plodding teams that lessened his statistical impact. His team success was limited by his lack of help; pulling John Starks off the checkout isle to become your second leading scorer isn't conducive to winning Championships. He did have a case of the yips in a few big moments though (see G7 ECF 1995).

Overall he had a great HoF career but so much more was expected.

[Sarcastic]

I think the most overrated player of all time is John Stockton. Most people would put him ahead of Ewing on an all time list, but during their primes Ewing was far ahead of Stockton as a player. It wasn't even close really.

[sportjames23]

94 Finals:

19ppg on 23 FGA 36% FG :bowdown:

And still almost beat Hakeem in the Finals, if not for Starks shooting 3 for 18 in Game 7.

[kNicKz]

David Lee stats

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

stopped reading

[KnicksWolves]

Either incredibly misinformed and under educated about the topic...in which case I don't know why you'd start a topic without first watching gameplay and doing research first...

Or

Trying to get a rise out of people...but by using...Patrick Ewing? Like anybody talks about him around these parts to even merit "overrated", lol.

[K Xerxes]

And still almost beat Hakeem in the Finals, if not for Starks shooting 3 for 18 in Game 7.

He didn't almost beat Hakeem; the Knicks almost beat the Rockets. Hakeem outplayed Ewing in that series, and that isn't really a question. Apart from outrebounding Hakeem, Hakeem dominated him.

[Sarcastic]

He didn't almost beat Hakeem; the Knicks almost beat the Rockets. Hakeem outplayed Ewing in that series, and that isn't really a question. Apart from outrebounding Hakeem, Hakeem dominated him.


No he didn't. Ewing also outblocked him, and the only games where Hakeem shot well were games that the Rockets actually lost. The Rockets won the games when Olajuwon shot under 50%, and if it weren't for Sam Cassell's clutch 3, the Knicks probably win the series.

[Xiao Yao You]

I think the most overrated player of all time is John Stockton. Most people would put him ahead of Ewing on an all time list, but during their primes Ewing was far ahead of Stockton as a player. It wasn't even close really.

You are right but it wasn't close n John's favor.

[Sarcastic]

You are right but it wasn't close n John's favor.


MVP voters of the era disagree. Stockton's best finish for the award was 7th place. That was a bad year for Ewing who was usually in the top 5.

[Legends66NBA7]

No he didn't. Ewing also outblocked him,and the only games where Hakeem shot well were games that the Rockets actually lost. The Rockets won the games when Olajuwon shot under 50%, and if it weren't for Sam Cassell's clutch 3, the Knicks probably win the series.

Not true. Game 6 he shot very well.

Ewing shot horrible in every game except Game 5. Hakeem outplayed Ewing.

[Sarcastic]

Not true. Game 6 he shot very well.

Ewing shot horrible in every game except Game 5. Hakeem outplayed Ewing.


He outplayed him. He didn't dominate him. Knicks didn't lose the series because of Ewing. They lost because John Starks couldn't hit a shot in game 7, and Sam Cassell hit one of the clutchest shots of his career (I believe it was game 3).

[guy]

He outplayed him. He didn't dominate him. Knicks didn't lose the series because of Ewing. They lost because John Starks couldn't hit a shot in game 7, and Sam Cassell hit one of the clutchest shots of his career (I believe it was game 3).

Patrick Ewing went 6-20 in game 6, which was the game they were a 3-pointer away from winning the series. Collectively as a team they had problems, and Ewing was a part of that. He clearly had a bad series for his standards and expectations. 36% is horrible, and even worse for a center.

[Legends66NBA7]

He outplayed him. He didn't dominate him. Knicks didn't lose the series because of Ewing. They lost because John Starks couldn't hit a shot in game 7, and Sam Cassell hit one of the clutchest shots of his career (I believe it was game 3).

Ewing didn't help his matters for shooting below 40% in 5 of the 7 games, and 41% in another one. Hakeem's defense really caused problems for Ewing, he clearly got slowed down.

And I agree Starks making buckets was a bigger issue than Ewing, but it's not just Cassell's big shots that made a difference, but even Hakeem's block on Starks potential game winner in Game 6. If it goes in, Knicks win the title.

[Sarcastic]

Patrick Ewing went 6-20 in game 6, which was the game they were a 3-pointer away from winning the series. Collectively as a team they had problems, and Ewing was a part of that. He clearly had a bad series for his standards and expectations. 36% is horrible, and even worse for a center.


He also had 15 rebounds and 4 blocks. Yes he did shoot awful that series, but again that's not the reason they lost. The Knicks style was to play a dirty, defensive game. He shot poorly in the Indiana series, which they won.

[guy]

He also had 15 rebounds and 4 blocks. Yes he did shoot awful that series, but again that's not the reason they lost. The Knicks style was to play a dirty, defensive game. He shot poorly in the Indiana series, which they won.

What do you meant that's not the reason they lost? This is such a cliche term that makes no sense. There's not one single reason they lost. But clearly Ewing shooting 36% for the series, and 30% and 41% in there last two losses had a negative effect. Had he put up his regular season numbers, they probably win that series easily.

[Sarcastic]

Rik Smits outshot Ewing in the prior Indiana series. I guess he destroyed Ewing as well.

[Legends66NBA7]

Rik Smits outshot Ewing in the prior Indiana series. I guess he destroyed Ewing as well.

Rik Smits wasn't the Pacers 1st option like Hakeem was for the Rockets. Both Ewing and Hakeem are both #1 options and played a lot of minutes in that series, while Smits didn't get nearly as much attention and minutes compared to Reggie Miller.

Smits 16.3ppg on 51.4%fg; Ewing 22.3ppg on 45.9%fg

vs

Hakeem 26.9ppg on 50%fg; Ewing 18.9ppg on 36.3%fg

[Sarcastic]

I guess we all have different definitions of "dominate". To me, for a player to "dominate" another player, he has to beat him in all facets of the game. For a lot of other people it seems like "dominate" means to shoot better and be more efficient.


Toh-may-toh, Toh-mah-toh...

[Xiao Yao You]

MVP voters of the era disagree. Stockton's best finish for the award was 7th place. That was a bad year for Ewing who was usually in the top 5.

And? That had more to do with Stockton/Malone vs Ewing/Starks(or whoever), NY hype and the fact he was a scorer not an unselfish pg. Stockton is the conversation for best pg not named Magic ever. Ewing is not in the conversation of best big man ever.

[FreezingTsmoove]

2 years ago it was consensus around here that Dwight was a top 3 player. There is no doubt in my mind Prime Ewing would challenge Lebron right now for best player in the L right now if he played in this era.

[Sarcastic]

And? That had more to do with Stockton/Malone vs Ewing/Starks(or whoever), NY hype and the fact he was a scorer not an unselfish pg. Stockton is the conversation for best pg not named Magic ever. Ewing is not in the conversation of best big man ever.


Exactly. Stockton wasn't even the best player on his team. And by a wide margin.

And best PG not named Magic is pretty much meaningless. How many PGs are even in the top 20 all time? How many centers are in the top 20? The competition is laughable. The 7th best center of all time is probably around the second best PG of all time, which is Isiah Thomas.


Ewing was better than Malone for most of their prime. The only difference was Ewing was hurt, and Malone had the longevity and won MVPs late in his career. If in the late 80s the Jazz tried to trade Malone for Ewing straight up, the Knicks would laugh as would most of the rest of the basketball community. Stockton for Ewing would be something that a mental patient would ask.

[secund2nun]

Kobe is easily the most overrated of all time. Ewing is one of the more underrated players ever.

The list of most overrated of all time is full of old players from back then and overrated wing players like Kobe, Iverson, Melo, Rose, etc.

[secund2nun]

And? That had more to do with Stockton/Malone vs Ewing/Starks(or whoever), NY hype and the fact he was a scorer not an unselfish pg. Stockton is the conversation for best pg not named Magic ever. Ewing is not in the conversation of best big man ever.

And yet Ewing was still way better than Stockton ever was. He had a much bigger impact on the game aka he was much better.

Cs > PGs

[Xiao Yao You]

And yet Ewing was still way better than Stockton ever was. He had a much bigger impact on the game aka he was much better.

Cs > PGs

I'd take Stockton any day. He was special. Ewing wasn't.


Exactly. Stockton wasn't even the best player on his team. And by a wide margin.

I guess. I'd take John.


And best PG not named Magic is pretty much meaningless.

No it's not. Magic was in class by himself.


The 7th best center of all time is probably around the second best PG of all time, which is Isiah Thomas.

Not many centers I'd want over Isiah either. He was a winner. Carried the Pistons on his back in the biggest games.


Ewing was better than Malone for most of their prime.

Not even close!


The only difference was Ewing was hurt

Karl played through injuries. Did it year after year. Same with Stockton. You have to take that in to account. Karl was a better all around player. What did Ewing do better other than block shots?


If in the late 80s the Jazz tried to trade Malone for Ewing straight up, the Knicks would laugh as would most of the rest of the basketball community.

The Knicks have been a stupid franchise for a long time though.


Stockton for Ewing would be something that a mental patient would ask.

With their money they could have built quite a team around John.

[Iceman#44]

Some interesting Stats H2H, and i must say i love Patrick Ewing. Anyway, stats tell D-Rob got the best of him in their H2H


Patrick Ewing VS David Robinson: 19 games, 7-12 overall

Ewing (7 wins): 19.8 ppg, 10.4 rbs, 2.2 ast, 2.6 blk, 1.1 stl on .434 FG, .700 FT, 35.1 min

Robinson (12 wins): 23.2 ppg, 9.3 rbs, 2.6 ast, 2.8 blk, 1.7 stl on .506 FG, .667 FT, 36.0 min



Robinson scores 45 with 16 boards against Ewing on 10/12/1995, but it was a losing effort.

Ewing's high vs The Admiral is 37 points, on 26/03/1991, also for him a losing effort.

[LAZERUSS]

IMHO, Greg Oden was the most over-hyped high school player of all-time; the most over-rated college player of all-time; and his pro career has been a complete bust.

There have been many players who were better in every step of their careers than what the 6-11 Oden has been.

[wakencdukest]

Most people rank him as tied with Robinson for the third best center in the 90's, behind Shaq and Hakeem, which is where he belongs. I haven't heard anyone say otherwise lately. He is still good enough to be the best center in the league today by a longshot. How is that overrated?

[bdreason]

Yes, because everywhere I go people are talking about how great Patrick Ewing was. I bet 99% of people under the age of 30 don't even know who Patrick Ewing is. :oldlol:

[Soundwave]

And yet Ewing was still way better than Stockton ever was. He had a much bigger impact on the game aka he was much better.

Cs > PGs

Just make one freaking account dude. Spamming the board with 3-4 accounts is just f**king sad.

As for the OP, Ewing would be the no.1B best player in the NBA today alongside LeBron if he was in his prime playing today. He'd murder this version of the NBA.

[LAZERUSS]

Not sure how Ewing would be considered over-rated. He was the 4th best center of his era, and probably ranked somewhere in the top-100 all-time (maybe even top-50, but I think that would be debatable.)

I'm not even convinced he is ranked in any top-10 center lists.

But he was a pretty damn good player.

[Legends66NBA7]

Not sure how Ewing would be considered over-rated. He was the 4th best center of his era, and probably ranked somewhere in the top-100 all-time (maybe even top-50, but I think that would be debatable.)

Top 50 is debatable for Patrick Ewing ? How do you explain that ?

I've always seen him in the Top 26-40 range.

[Duncan21formvp]

David Lee stats???:roll:

[LAZERUSS]

Top 50 is debatable for Patrick Ewing ? How do you explain that ?

I've always seen him in the Top 26-40 range.

To be honest, I haven't really given it a thought. But, where do you rank Willis Reed, who won one MVP, and two FMVP's? Where do you rank Bob McAdoo, who was a considerably better player at his peak, and who not only won one MVP, but was robbed of another, and came in second in one more season

[CelticBaller]

More like most underrated. His second option for several seasons was John Starks. He was out of his prime once Houston, Sprewell, LJ, and Camby came aboard. Ewing wasnt a joke. Old, hobbled Ewing outplayed a prime Zo.
This thread was killed quickly

[NBASTATMAN]

David Lee stats, good though not incredible defense, only one first team all NBA, no MVPs, no rings, simply a college player turned very good though never amazing pro.

What's the big deal on this guy? I'd take prime Pau, Duncan at center, etc. over him always.
:facepalm

[LAZERUSS]

Since I brought it up earlier...

Where does Ewing rank among the great centers?

As far as I am concerned, he was only the 4th best center of his era, behind Shaq, Hakeem, and D-Rob.

Then, as I mentioned above, does his career warrant a higher ranking than Willis Reed's or Bob McAdoo's?

And let's give Gilmore some credit for his ABA seasons, as well as his many outstanding NBA seasons. Was Ewing better than him?

Ewing certainly holds a longevity edge over Walton...but would you take a peak Ewing over a peak Walton?

Some might argue Dwight.

And some other's might argue Parish.

And how about Duncan? He has actually been a center for probably at least half of his career.

Thurmond would be an interesting argument. He was clearly a better defender, and a better rebounder.

Then there were Moses, KAJ, Russell, and Chamberlain. Ewing certainly has nothing on those guys.


I don't think Ewing has a case as a Top-10 center all-time.

[BoutPractice]

Obviously I don't know as much about 60s basketball as you do, but I think Ewing has a clear case for top 10 center of all time. The 60s and 90s were a golden age for centers, which in my opinion should work to the advantage of rather than against the great centers from those eras, as they showed what they were able to do against multiple HOFers and there was great competition for awards and honours.

Not only was Ewing an 11 time All Star, but he was also top 5 in MVP voting six times. As an example, in 88-89, the only players ahead of him were Magic, Jordan and Karl Malone. He was above Hakeem and Barkley. In 89-90, he was above David Robinson and Hakeem. In 92-93, above Robinson and Malone, and in 94-95, above Hakeem (in a year that undoubtedly belonged to Hakeem in the end).

My point being that he was frequently considered more valuable than players who actually won MVPs on years where said players were in their prime, including two players now seen as better than him, Robinson and Hakeem. This illustrates that Ewing was viewed as belonging to the upper class of centers, and in fact, players, from his era. Ewing was also consistently voted in the All NBA 2nd team (with either Hakeem and Robinson in the 1st), and once in the All NBA 1st team, a HUGE achievement for a 90s center.

Add to that excellent stats (one year stands out: 89-90 with 28.5 points, 11 rebounds and 4 blocks on 55% shooting), peer recognition, and the fact that Ewing came this close to leading a defensive-minded team with little star power aside from him to the title, and I think he's top 10.

Russell, Chamberlain, Kareem, Shaq, Moses, Hakeem, and David Robinson I will put above Ewing with no hesitation. But after that? Duncan isn't traditionally counted as a center, neither is Bob McAdoo to my knowledge, and Gilmore, while underrated, doesn't belong this high on the list. Dwight hasn't done anything exceptional yet other than being the best center in an era with few true centers and winning a few defensive player of the year awards... his Houston years will be where his legacy is written, but for now, I have him below Ewing. Thurmond has few achievements compared to other great centers. Save for one year, Parish wasn't individually dominant enough, his career just doesn't jump at you. Reed and Walton probably are top 10, based respectively on career accomplishments and peak value, but that would only take you to 9, still leaving a spot for Ewing.

[LAZERUSS]

Obviously I don't know as much about 60s basketball as you do, but I think Ewing has a clear case for top 10 center of all time. The 60s and 90s were a golden age for centers, which in my opinion should work to the advantage of rather than against the great centers from those eras, as they showed what they were able to do against multiple HOFers and there was great competition for awards and honours.

Not only was Ewing an 11 time All Star, but he was also top 5 in MVP voting six times. As an example, in 88-89, the only players ahead of him were Magic, Jordan and Karl Malone. He was above Hakeem and Barkley. In 89-90, he was above David Robinson and Hakeem. In 92-93, above Robinson and Malone, and in 94-95, above Hakeem (in a year that undoubtedly belonged to Hakeem in the end).

My point being that he was frequently considered more valuable than players who actually won MVPs on years where said players were in their prime, including two players now seen as better than him, Robinson and Hakeem. This illustrates that Ewing was viewed as belonging to the upper class of centers, and in fact, players, from his era. Ewing was also consistently voted in the All NBA 2nd team (with either Hakeem and Robinson in the 1st), and once in the All NBA 1st team, a HUGE achievement for a 90s center.

Add to that excellent stats (one year stands out: 89-90 with 28.5 points, 11 rebounds and 4 blocks on 55% shooting), peer recognition, and the fact that Ewing came this close to leading a defensive-minded team with little star power aside from him to the title, and I think he's top 10.

Russell, Chamberlain, Kareem, Shaq, Moses, Hakeem, and David Robinson I will put above Ewing with no hesitation. But after that? Duncan isn't traditionally counted as a center, neither is Bob McAdoo to my knowledge, and Gilmore, while underrated, doesn't belong this high on the list. Dwight hasn't done anything exceptional yet other than being the best center in an era with few true centers and winning a few defensive player of the year awards... his Houston years will be where his legacy is written, but for now, I have him below Ewing. Thurmond has few achievements compared to other great centers. Save for one year, Parish wasn't individually dominant enough, his career just doesn't jump at you. Reed and Walton probably are top 10, based respectively on career accomplishments and peak value, but that would only take you to 9, still leaving a spot for Ewing.

Well thought out post.

:cheers:

As a sidenote, McAdoo was a center in the first few years of his career (as was Elvin Hayes.) Obviously with his range and skill-set, he was also capable of playing PF (and really, SF as well.) BTW, he deserves some credit for a ring in at least his '82 season. And a case could be made that he was just as valuable as Kareem was in the Finals that year.

[TheBigVeto]

You're confusing Ewing with Kobe Bryant.

[poido123]

I thought OP was joking when I first opened this thread. Who overrates Ewing on ISH? Are you fcking kidding me?

This guy :roll:

[Stringer Bell]

Beat me to it. If anything, Ewing is criminally underrated now.

I remember when Ewing was considered as good as, or even better than, Olajuwon. Dream only moved past Ewing and Robinson in most experts eyes due to his back-to-back titles in '94 & '95. But who knows how things would've turned out if Starks didn't shit the bed in Game 7 in 1994. Yes, that series went seven games, with the final game being played in Houston, and the Rockets had to pull away at the end.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_NBA_Finals

Starks gets so much blame, but Ewing was horrible offensively in that series. He had one game in which he didn't shoot poorly. And he didn't get to the line either.

Ewing had chronically bad knees for most of his career, but was still an excellent player and one of the top centers for over a decade. I wonder how great he could have been if not for the bad knees.

[SugarHill]

David Lee stats? Are you retarded?

[MiseryCityTexas]

More like most underrated. His second option for several seasons was John Starks. He was out of his prime once Houston, Sprewell, LJ, and Camby came aboard. Ewing wasnt a joke. Old, hobbled Ewing outplayed a prime Zo.


Hell yeah. old ass hurt Ewing used to embarrass the shit out of prime Zo back in the day.

[oarabbus]

David Lee stats? Are you retarded?


Nah man, Warriors wouldn't have even made playoffs last couple years with a prime Ewing instead of DLee :lol

[Smoke117]

I know you enter every single Knicks thread, ever, with a negative opinion at the ready, but what puts Ewing behind Robinson?

He may not have been the passer Robinson was, but he had a more diverse offensive skillset and NEVER bitched it like Robinson did against Hakeem in 95. I've read Rodman's book and he stated several times that Robinson would complain and bitch to the Spurs coaching staff that he needed more help with Hakeem and even asked to switch and let Rodman take him.

Ewing led offensively retarded to the finals and were perennial contenders in a utterly stacked Eastern Conference at the time. Robinson never won anything as a first option and truthfully never achieved all that much without Duncan coming on board and leading the team. If you take away the 2 titles Duncan led Robinson too, there's no fragment of a legitimate argument to put Robinson ahead of Ewing.

The fact that he was a better/greater player is pretty legitimate to me. Ewing is behind Robinson, period. Even different tiers, possibly.

[masonanddixon]

He'd look silly against Dirk, Duncan, and garnett

[CJ Mustard]

:oldlol: The guy was a monster/freak in the late 80's early 90's. He came into the league as a defensive juggernaut and managed to turn himself into a great offensive big to go along with it. He never had a good supporting cast around him in his prime and he was injury plagued throughout his career. Despite all this, he still made deep Playoffs runs and a Final appearance and damn near won a title as the best player. He is underrated in NBA history if anything.

[Real14]

What????????????:biggums:

[FatComputerNerd]

Ewing was a monster

[Real14]

Ewing was a monster
Exactly. If it weren't for John Starks, Ewing would have a ring.

[bigt]

Wow serious? Patrick Ewing was a fantastic player who played in an era with some seriously tough competition at his position (anyone who can go toe to toe with the likes of Hakeem and Shaq and still be considered great is damn good). Not to mention while other superstars had some great teams alongside them Ewing had to deal with Starks as a second option :oldlol:

Ewing was legit, and it's a credit to him how he changed his game to adapt to what New York needed. He wasn't an offensive player coming into the league. But he damn well became one.

[c5terror]

It's possible if LeBron died. That's about it.
Aside from scoring and handle
Ewing > Lebron
Provide details if disagree.

[Elosha]

Ewing should not be underestimated. He was the anchor for the Knicks that gave the Bulls such huge trouble in 92 and 93. He was actually quite explosive and athletic in his younger years, and he developed a wide variety of post moves, sweeping drives (traveled sometimes) and a smooth jumper up to 20 feet. In many ways he was more skilled offensively than players such as David Robinson and Shaq, but he wasn't as big or physically dominant.

Also, Patrick had some pretty clutch moments throughout his playoff career, and he was truly a warrior. One of the most competitive centers I've ever seen. Just had a real zeal for the game and lots of confidence in his game. He lost out to Hakeem in 94, but he never stopped fighting and he was never cowed and defeated against Olajuwon, unlike the Admiral.

He'd be quite a force in today's league, although he'd have to adjust to defensive three seconds, inside out play and even more guard dominance. But he'd likely be the best offensive center today and a solid defender/rebounder as well.

[AirFederer]

Has OP ever seen Ewings NICKS play????????
Name a player with more heart than him! ♥️
Like a boss on two sides of the floor! So many of today's "superstars" do not play any meaningful D.

This thread is shameful for ISH :facepalm

[Smoke117]

Ewing should not be underestimated. He was the anchor for the Knicks that gave the Bulls such huge trouble in 92 and 93. He was actually quite explosive and athletic in his younger years, and he developed a wide variety of post moves, sweeping drives (traveled sometimes) and a smooth jumper up to 20 feet. In many ways he was more skilled offensively than players such as David Robinson and Shaq, but he wasn't as big or physically dominant.

Also, Patrick had some pretty clutch moments throughout his playoff career, and he was truly a warrior. One of the most competitive centers I've ever seen. Just had a real zeal for the game and lots of confidence in his game. He lost out to Hakeem in 94, but he never stopped fighting and he was never cowed and defeated against Olajuwon, unlike the Admiral.

He'd be quite a force in today's league, although he'd have to adjust to defensive three seconds, inside out play and even more guard dominance. But he'd likely be the best offensive center today and a solid defender/rebounder as well.


Oh yeah...that 18.9ppg on .367%(22.8 shots!) was super impressive by Ewing in the 94 finals. Much better than the 23.8ppg on .449%( 16.3 shots) Robinson put up in the WCF the next season. :rolleyes:

[Round Mound]

Oh yeah...that 18.9ppg on .367%(22.8 shots!) was super impressive by Ewing in the 94 finals. Much better than the 23.8ppg on .449%( 16.3 shots) Robinson put up in the WCF the next season. :rolleyes:

But You Forget Ewing Outrebounded and Outshotblocked Hakeem.

[L.Kizzle]

The fact that he was a better/greater player is pretty legitimate to me. Ewing is behind Robinson, period. Even different tiers, possibly.
Different tiers this is Ewing not Mutombo. Wrong Hoya.

[La Frescobaldi]

Since I brought it up earlier...

Where does Ewing rank among the great centers?

As far as I am concerned, he was only the 4th best center of his era, behind Shaq, Hakeem, and D-Rob.
Correct. Although it is true that the '90s weren't really a Golden Era for centers as many have said. There were 4 true enough.... but then it rapidly plunged into mediocrity and worse.



Then, as I mentioned above, does his career warrant a higher ranking than Willis Reed's or Bob McAdoo's?
Not better than them either - although Ewing's defense was always much better than Mac, he couldn't destroy a team's entire defensive strategy like McAdoo always did. The only way I'm taking Ewing over McAdoo is if my team is just loaded up with lethal scorers and I need great defense.



And let's give Gilmore some credit for his ABA seasons, as well as his many outstanding NBA seasons. Was Ewing better than him?
Worth debating.



Ewing certainly holds a longevity edge over Walton...but would you take a peak Ewing over a peak Walton?
No, not even close.



Some might argue Dwight.

And some other's might argue Parish.

Ewing was better than both these guys to me.




And how about Duncan? He has actually been a center for probably at least half of his career. Duncan was always better.


Thurmond would be an interesting argument. He was clearly a better defender, and a better rebounder.
Maybe. Debatable. I'm not certain Nate's team defense was better; it was his man defense that was so...... surreal. Nate was only marginally ahead of Walton as far as being constantly, chronically injured so...



Then there were Moses, KAJ, Russell, and Chamberlain. Ewing certainly has nothing on those guys.
Of course not.


I don't think Ewing has a case as a Top-10 center all-time.

He's right there, though, in a debate with the bottom of that list. There's not too many other centers out there that ever had Ewing's impact.

[secund2nun]

Just make one freaking account dude. Spamming the board with 3-4 accounts is just f**king sad.

As for the OP, Ewing would be the no.1B best player in the NBA today alongside LeBron if he was in his prime playing today. He'd murder this version of the NBA.

I realize it's a year later but I only have one account.

[HurricaneKid]

There were 4 true enough.... but then it rapidly plunged into mediocrity and worse.


Funny because Brad Daugherty beat out Ewing at least once or twice on the All-NBA teams.

Ewing came in as probably the most highly regarded college player of the last 40 years and was revered for his defense. He ended up with ONE 1st team All-NBA selection and ZERO first team All-NBA defense.

He simply wasn't close to DRob and Dream. I really don't consider Shaq a competitor as their peaks never truly crossed. And his game wouldn't translate as well to today as his fleet footed competitors. So yes, his career ended up as a bit of a disappointment even if it still was a great career and his skills were great for the age he played in but wouldn't allow him to compete in today's age.

[L.Kizzle]

Funny because Brad Daugherty beat out Ewing at least once or twice on the All-NBA teams.

Ewing came in as probably the most highly regarded college player of the last 40 years and was revered for his defense. He ended up with ONE 1st team All-NBA selection and ZERO first team All-NBA defense.

He simply wasn't close to DRob and Dream. I really don't consider Shaq a competitor as their peaks never truly crossed. And his game wouldn't translate as well to today as his fleet footed competitors. So yes, his career ended up as a bit of a disappointment even if it still was a great career and his skills were great for the age he played in but wouldn't allow him to compete in today's age.
False, Brad never beat out Ewing

Pat 2nd Team to Hakeem in 88 and 89.
Pat 1st Team in 90.
Pat 2nd Team in 91, 92 (Brad makes his only all nba team this season as a 3rd team member) and 93. Behind Robinson twice and Hakeem.
Pat 2nd Team 97 behind Hakeem.

[HurricaneKid]

False, Brad never beat out Ewing

Pat 2nd Team to Hakeem in 88 and 89.
Pat 1st Team in 90.
Pat 2nd Team in 91, 92 (Brad makes his only all nba team this season as a 3rd team member) and 93. Behind Robinson twice and Hakeem.
Pat 2nd Team 97 behind Hakeem.

I stand corrected. Looks like he beat out Dream and not Ewing. Parish and Mutumbo beat him out though.

15 NBA seasons. 1 1st team all NBA selection. 6 2nd team selections. 8 seasons without making the All-NBA team at all.

[MiseryCityTexas]

A hurt and hobbled patrick ewing is still better than a 100 percent healthy kendrick perkins

[Pointguard]

Correct. Although it is true that the '90s weren't really a Golden Era for centers as many have said. There were 4 true enough.... but then it rapidly plunged into mediocrity and worse.

Mutombo and Mourning weren't close to mediocrity and both should make HOF. Kevin Willis was an 18/13 guy there for a good 4 or 5 years. Divac and Daugherty were among the better all around centers in the game. Daugherty a good 20/10 guy. Plus their wasn't a time when there were 4 better centers playing simultaneously. Nor was there a time when there were nine good centers overlapping.

Smits, Cartwright and Seikley would be average to good, and not mediocre in most other time periods.

[La Frescobaldi]

Mutombo and Mourning weren't close to mediocrity and both should make HOF. Kevin Willis was an 18/13 guy there for a good 4 or 5 years. Divac and Daugherty were among the better all around centers in the game. Daugherty a good 20/10 guy. Plus their wasn't a time when there were 4 better centers playing simultaneously. Nor was there a time when there were nine good centers overlapping.

Smits, Cartwright and Seikley would be average to good, and not mediocre in most other time periods.
I wouldn't vote for either one of them.
And yes, there was stronger leagues at the C. In a much smaller league there was Russell, Chamberlain, Thurmond, Reed, Unseld - all vastly better than those guys. Maybe Mourning at his best would have made a team in the late '60s but he's the only one on that list. Early '70s was even stronger, still all those guys and you had Russell replaced by Jabbar, Cowens, Big E played center a few years, McAdoo, Lanier & Rule, with Bill Walton not far behind still at UCLA and Artis Gilmore and Malone showing up in '76.

[La Frescobaldi]

I stand corrected. Looks like he beat out Dream and not Ewing. Parish and Mutumbo beat him out though.

15 NBA seasons. 1 1st team all NBA selection. 6 2nd team selections. 8 seasons without making the All-NBA team at all.

he was, as I said up front, never one of the top centers in his day. So how would he make the ALL-NBA team?

[L.Kizzle]

I stand corrected. Looks like he beat out Dream and not Ewing. Parish and Mutumbo beat him out though.

15 NBA seasons. 1 1st team all NBA selection. 6 2nd team selections. 8 seasons without making the All-NBA team at all.
Those other seasons included Hakeem Robinson and Shaq who were beating him out. Not like Rik Smits and Kevin Willis were beating him out. Parish never beat him he was 3rd team in 89 and Pat 2nd team. Deke made 3rd in in 98 and Pat only played like 20 games that season. His last all star/all nba worthy season was 97 when he avg 22/11 and was all nba 2nd and an all star. His last productive season was 2000 he avg 15/7 in 60+ games.

So a healthy Ewing was only getting beat out by Shaq Robinson and Hakeem on All NBA Teams. Kareem and Moses beat him out his first 2 seasons but he only played a total of 50 games and 63 games. Deke and Zo didn't start making teams until Pat was gone from his peak. Brad only made it because the Rockets missed playoffs in 92.

[Round Mound]

I cant`stand the amount of disrespect Patrick Ewing is recieving in this thread. :rolleyes:

[Stringer Bell]

Exactly. If it weren't for John Starks, Ewing would have a ring.

If it weren't for Ewing throwing up miss after miss after miss throughout the series, he would have a ring.

There probably wouldn't have even been a game 7 for Starks to screw up in if Ewing hadn't had such a horrendous finals (offensively). Ewing did his part on the defensive end with his blocks, and rebounded well, but his shooting was just awful. And he didn't get to the line either to make up for it.

[Marchesk]

So yes, his career ended up as a bit of a disappointment even if it still was a great career and his skills were great for the age he played in but wouldn't allow him to compete in today's age.

:facepalm

Ewing would hands down be the best center in today's era.

[swagga]

:facepalm

Ewing would hands down be the best center in today's era.

agree, some retarded takes in thread :facepalm

[swagga]

If it weren't for Ewing throwing up miss after miss after miss throughout the series, he would have a ring.

There probably wouldn't have even been a game 7 for Starks to screw up in if Ewing hadn't had such a horrendous finals (offensively). Ewing did his part on the defensive end with his blocks, and rebounded well, but his shooting was just awful. And he didn't get to the line either to make up for it.

son when you go against the dream and you get doubled because you don't have a secondary or tertiary solid scoring option (lol starks ) that's what happens.

ewing/dream/shaq/duncan were the best Cs in the last 25 years.

[G0ATbe]

:facepalm It's MJ and it's not close.

[HurricaneKid]

:facepalm

Ewing would hands down be the best center in today's era.

Ewing is hot garbage >5 ft from the basket defensively. He might be the best offensive C in today's game but he didn't have the feet that Dream and the Admiral did that would allow him to keep up on the other side of the floor.

When we look at players in the past we look at them through the lens of today's game. So now that mobility and shooting are emphasized we look for those attributes when comparing players.

You guys and your "there are no good Cs anymore" drive me crazy. The game has changed. Big plodding Cs that destroyed the league in the past simply can't play in the current game. And Ewing fits right in there.

[HurricaneKid]

son when you go against the dream and you get doubled because you don't have a secondary or tertiary solid scoring option (lol starks ) that's what happens.

ewing/dream/shaq/duncan were the best Cs in the last 25 years.

Robinson >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ewing

And I got lazy/cheap with the >.

[imdaman99]

I grew up on 90s Knicks... and at the time I didn't appreciate Ewing because of all the guarantees he made and they always came up short. But I miss him like crazy now, at least the Knicks would go deep into the playoffs with him. And it's true John Starks had a bad game 7 and was possibly the biggest reason they didn't win...but he was coming off a memorable game 6 where he was going to win the Knicks the series if Hakeem didn't block him in the final seconds. Sad times :(

[imdaman99]

Robinson >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ewing

And I got lazy/cheap with the >.
Man I'm sure you've already been asked this but what exactly did Robinson win without Duncan leading the way?

Fck the individual accolades.

[swagga]

Ewing is hot garbage >5 ft from the basket defensively. He might be the best offensive C in today's game but he didn't have the feet that Dream and the Admiral did that would allow him to keep up on the other side of the floor.

When we look at players in the past we look at them through the lens of today's game. So now that mobility and shooting are emphasized we look for those attributes when comparing players.

You guys and your "there are no good Cs anymore" drive me crazy. The game has changed. Big plodding Cs that destroyed the league in the past simply can't play in the current game. And Ewing fits right in there.

niggga is you retarded? :biggums: :biggums: :biggums:
ewing is one of the greatest defensive players in the history of the game.

[Burgz V2]

this is such a ridiculous thread.

[Dragic4Life]

Sorry but Kobe has that title on lockdown since 2004.

[Thorpesaurous]

I actually agree that Ewing is overrated historically. The problem is the guy who was among the best jump shooting bigs ever, and who's catch and shoot game would've absolutely made him a beast in the current league, because he could both post up and keep the lane clear because he was totally functional outside to fifteen feet, especially on the baseline ... is not the same guy who was a defensive, rebounding, end changing monster in his first four years in the league (and throughout his GTown days). He did have the one real monster year I wanna say in 81, which is the closest we saw to his development meet his physical gifts, but then he got hurt and never really got it back.

Either iteration would be the best center in the league right now however.

[HurricaneKid]

niggga is you retarded? :biggums: :biggums: :biggums:
ewing is one of the greatest defensive players in the history of the game.

Not even in the ballpark of his peers. DRob/Dream >>>>>>> those slow feet.

[2LeTTeRS]

Not even in the ballpark of his peers. DRob/Dream >>>>>>> those slow feet.

How old are you? You sound like you only saw old Ewing (after 95 or so). Prime Ewing was every bit the athlete of any big currently in the league not named Dwight, Deandre, or Drummond.

[HurricaneKid]

How old are you? You sound like you only saw old Ewing (after 95 or so). Prime Ewing was every bit the athlete of any big currently in the league not named Dwight, Deandre, or Drummond.

I'm plenty old. I saw Ed Pinckney beat him in the National Championship game despite losing to him 3 times previously that year (has some history of the yips in big moments too, kinda weird to have people point to the Admiral on that note).

Its the youngsters that don't get how he was expected to be a transformative superstar for the league and ended up being a really great HoF level player but never one that was even the best C in the league.

See if you are comparing him athletically to Spencer Hawes, fine he is on a much higher plane. But if we are suggesting he is an all-timer and athletically not even DJ, well that doesn't compute.

Cs that can't play away from the basket are increasingly pushed out of their comfort zones by the opposition. Just look at ATL putting Antic out there and forcing hibbert to embarrass himself out at the 3 pt line. Or Pop needing to take Duncan out at the end of G6 in the 2013 Finals because he didn't want Bosh to get an open look.

[ArbitraryWater]

I'm plenty old. I saw Ed Pinckney beat him in the National Championship game despite losing to him 3 times previously that year (has some history of the yips in big moments too, kinda weird to have people point to the Admiral on that note).

Its the youngsters that don't get how he was expected to be a transformative superstar for the league and ended up being a really great HoF level player but never one that was even the best C in the league.

See if you are comparing him athletically to Spencer Hawes, fine he is on a much higher plane. But if we are suggesting he is an all-timer and athletically not even DJ, well that doesn't compute.

Cs that can't play away from the basket are increasingly pushed out of their comfort zones by the opposition. Just look at ATL putting Antic out there and forcing hibbert to embarrass himself out at the 3 pt line. Or Pop needing to take Duncan out at the end of G6 in the 2013 Finals because he didn't want Bosh to get an open look.

Wow... Usually these older, knowledgable guys who've been on ISH for a decent time have full rep bars..

24'd rn, will rep tommorow

[HurricaneKid]

Wow... Usually these older, knowledgable guys who've been on ISH for a decent time have full rep bars..

24'd rn, will rep tommorow

I'm rather proud of voicing some unpopular opinions.

[kNicKz]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view3/1290449/picard-facepalm-o.gif

[Stringer Bell]

son when you go against the dream and you get doubled because you don't have a secondary or tertiary solid scoring option (lol starks ) that's what happens.

ewing/dream/shaq/duncan were the best Cs in the last 25 years.

The Knicks backcourt outplayed the Rockets backcourt. Harper had a very good series, Starks was up and down, but they played better than the Rockets guards throughout the 7 games. Kenny Smith just got dominated by Harper. Olajuwon didn't get much offensive help either in that series. The 95' Rockets gave Hakeem a lot more help offensively than they did in this one.

Ewing was a great player, especially impressive when you consider how productive he was with chronically bad knees, but he was awful on offense in this series, and certainly deserves his share of blame for the loss instead of everyone just blaming Starks because he was horrendous in game 7.

[Cali Syndicate]

I stand corrected. Looks like he beat out Dream and not Ewing. Parish and Mutumbo beat him out though.

15 NBA seasons. 1 1st team all NBA selection. 6 2nd team selections. 8 seasons without making the All-NBA team at all.

Parish was never selected ahead of Ewing, and Mutombo was hitting his prime when he was getting voted in while Ewing was entering his mid 30's. Ewing may only have 6 all NBA selections and only 1 first team selection, but he was losing them to players like Kareem, Malone, Olajuwan, Robinson and Shaq. Obviously he wasn't on these players level but Ewing is regardless arguably a top 10 center of all-time. If you don't think he would dominate the center position if he played right now, you're mistaken. Sure the game has changed but teams play to their strengths and any team with Ewing right now would utilize him as a considerable strength. What argument would there be that putting prime Ewing on any team right now wouldn't make them immensely better. Cause he's "flat footed"?

Ewing is severely underrated. mainly because he doesn't have any rings. But that's blame on the Knicks FO, Ewing played his part superbly.

[icewill36]

yea he pretty much never had any help until he was old.

[Pointguard]

I'm plenty old. I saw Ed Pinckney beat him in the National Championship game despite losing to him 3 times previously that year (has some history of the yips in big moments too, kinda weird to have people point to the Admiral on that note).
It wasn't that Pickney beat out Ewing. That Villanova team just would not miss a shot. I never seen any team hit like 80% against a great defense like that. But in college, Ewing beats Hakeem team for the championship and was one bad pass away from beating Jordan/Worthy as well. If he was over ranked it was because of his college career which was more dominant that Hakeem or Jordan's.


Its the youngsters that don't get how he was expected to be a transformative superstar for the league and ended up being a really great HoF level player but never one that was even the best C in the league.

At the pro level he had bad coaches. In his first year I think Hubie Brown had him playing PF, with Cartwiright at center. Ewing was trapping guards at half court? Which pulled him away from the terror at center he was supposed to be. The lethal jump shot was not in his college repertoire, but it took him out of the deep post some. And the Knicks just never had a coach who pitted him deeper under the basket. If the team was constructed with quicker defensive players rather than burly beat you up players, I think our Knicks would have faired better.

[La Frescobaldi]

It wasn't that Pickney beat out Ewing. That Villanova team just would not miss a shot. I never seen any team hit like 80% against a great defense like that. But in college, Ewing beats Hakeem team for the championship and was one bad pass away from beating Jordan/Worthy as well. If he was over ranked it was because of his college career which was more dominant that Hakeem or Jordan's.

At the pro level he had bad coaches. In his first year I think Hubie Brown had him playing PF, with Cartwiright at center. Ewing was trapping guards at half court? Which pulled him away from the terror at center he was supposed to be. The lethal jump shot was not in his college repertoire, but it took him out of the deep post some. And the Knicks just never had a coach who pitted him deeper under the basket. If the team was constructed with quicker defensive players rather than burly beat you up players, I think our Knicks would have faired better.

Maybe. It's an imponderable. But they were looking to duplicate that Pistons defense brutality as kind of a Jordan Rules but even more... because Oakley.

I really do wish we could watch Kevin Durant try to pull that wave-your-arm-at-the-defender-for-a-free-throw on Chuck. Or even Buck Williams or A. Houston either. Those guys would have broke it right off and very politely handed it back to him.
"Here you are, sir. You may shoot your free throws now.. b1tch."

[Paul George 24]

Lebron Is The Most Overrated Player In Nba History

[SHAQisGOAT]

Pretty long thread... To sum it up and answer the OP: just no, if anything you're underrating Ewing and his career there. Go look at him play, especially/mostly before injuries, also... Dude had the height, the athleticism, the jumper, knew how to work in the post, played great D, good rebounder...
Especially stuff like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AGjAKNwzcE

[L.Kizzle]

Ewing from 87-91 was different than Ewing from 92-96.

Most of yall probably remember him from his volleyball kneepad days.

[Pointguard]

Pretty long thread... To sum it up and answer the OP: just no, if anything you're underrating Ewing and his career there. Go look at him play, especially/mostly before injuries, also... Dude had the height, the athleticism, the jumper, knew how to work in the post, played great D, good rebounder...
Especially stuff like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AGjAKNwzcE
Great post.

Ewing before the injuries wasn't behind Robinson. Ewing had more dependable moves and more consistency in the post. Ewing really peaked in '90. And could get around very quickly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGiQQI8nZAE

Ewing and Olajuwon in 1990 as well. Love the clash of the titans.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KufUO_R7oVA
They (Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson) were a bit more agile/mobile than my current favorite big men at power forward KG, Dirk and Duncan.

Here are the Knicks giving Shaq a hard time. A lot of animosity in this clip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfAlPBRwthk Shaq was really hard on Ewing later on.

But if Ewing's shot was on before '92 he was a little better than the other three. But on an average night he was just below them. Shaq and Hakeem had higher levels that they stayed on.

[HurricaneKid]

It wasn't that Pickney beat out Ewing. That Villanova team just would not miss a shot. I never seen any team hit like 80% against a great defense like that. But in college, Ewing beats Hakeem team for the championship and was one bad pass away from beating Jordan/Worthy as well. If he was over ranked it was because of his college career which was more dominant that Hakeem or Jordan's.

At the pro level he had bad coaches. In his first year I think Hubie Brown had him playing PF, with Cartwiright at center. Ewing was trapping guards at half court? Which pulled him away from the terror at center he was supposed to be. The lethal jump shot was not in his college repertoire, but it took him out of the deep post some. And the Knicks just never had a coach who pitted him deeper under the basket. If the team was constructed with quicker defensive players rather than burly beat you up players, I think our Knicks would have faired better.

I think he had a great career. But yeah, expectations have a lot to do with how you feel about something after the fact. You can blame the coaching but his career ended up being less than almost everyone had figured coming in.

[2LeTTeRS]

I'm plenty old. I saw Ed Pinckney beat him in the National Championship game despite losing to him 3 times previously that year (has some history of the yips in big moments too, kinda weird to have people point to the Admiral on that note).

You might have a point If:

a) Ewing didn't lead the Howays to a title in the collegiate level (including beating Jordan and the Tarheels and Hakeem's Houston team).
b) any other star in that era dominated by winning multiple college titles

The you might have a point. But given the way that things actually played out you simply don't.


Its the youngsters that don't get how he was expected to be a transformative superstar for the league and ended up being a really great HoF level player but never one that was even the best C in the league.

See if you are comparing him athletically to Spencer Hawes, fine he is on a much higher plane. But if we are suggesting he is an all-timer and athletically not even DJ, well that doesn't compute.

There is so much wrong with this I don't even know where to start. You state that he wasn't even "the best in the league" while neglecting to mention that he played in the golden era of centers, while also overrating the importance of athleticism, and downplaying just how athletic Ewing is.

For a big man even in this era Ewing would have elite length, strength and bulk with above average speed, leaping ability and mobility. Can you say the same for Spencer Hawes?

Hell I'd even say that Ewing is plenty more athletic than even a prime Tim Duncan, and look how he is playing during this so-called advanced era.


Cs that can't play away from the basket are increasingly pushed out of their comfort zones by the opposition. Just look at ATL putting Antic out there and forcing hibbert to embarrass himself out at the 3 pt line. Or Pop needing to take Duncan out at the end of G6 in the 2013 Finals because he didn't want Bosh to get an open look.

So you claim you saw young Ewing and compare him to Hibbert? Bullshit. Hibbert isn't half the athlete Ewing was.

Additionally how certain are we that Pop had to take Duncan out? Pop made the decision in '13 to sit Duncan and it bit him in the ass. When given the chance the following season, it sure looked to me like he decided the to bet on the "unathletic" Duncan and it won him a title.

If Duncan is athletic enough at 38 to win a title; prime Ewing would do just fine.

[Done_And_Done]

As much as I wanna diarhea deficate all over this thread, it has brought quite a few decent posts to the table. That David Lee likening though...

[Stringer Bell]

He lost out to Hakeem in 94, but he never stopped fighting and he was never cowed and defeated against Olajuwon, unlike the Admiral.



Oh yeah...that 18.9ppg on .367%(22.8 shots!) was super impressive by Ewing in the 94 finals. Much better than the 23.8ppg on .449%( 16.3 shots) Robinson put up in the WCF the next season. :rolleyes:

Ewing was definitely outplayed and defeated by Hakeem, just like Robinson was.

Robinson got absolutely abused by Hakeem and made to look like a fool while trying to guard him. Ewing (and the Knicks) played better defense on Hakeem and Hakeem averaged "only" 27 a game, but Ewing's offense was terrible while Robinson's was merely subpar.

1994 Finals:

Olajuwon: 26.9 PPG on 21.4 FGA, 50% FG, 9.1 RPG, 3.6 APG, 1.6 SPG, 3.9 BPG.
Ewing: 18.9 PPG on 22.9 FGA, 36% FG, 12.4 RPG, 1.7 APG, 1.3 SPG, 4.3 BPG.

1995 WCF:

Olajuwon: 35.3 PPG on 27.7 FGA, 56% FG, 12.5 RPG, 5.0 APG, 1.3 SPG, 4.2 BPG.
Robinson: 23.8 PPG on 16.3 FGA, 45% FG, 11.3 RPG, 2.7 APG, 1.5 SPG, 2.2 BPG.

The bottom line is that both of them were outplayed by Hakeem, pretty badly, regardless if Ewing "never stopped fighting" or whatever cliches are used. Ewing also never stopped missing.

The 1994 Finals were closer, all games decided by less than 10 points, and Houston winning very close games in 3 and 6, which made Ewing's brickfests so damaging since the games were very winnable (of course, Ewing's blocks, boards, and defensive presence helped make those games winnable so credit him for that).

Olajuwon got more help offensively in 95' against the Spurs. That was perhaps the beginning of Big Shot Rob, with him hitting a game winner in game 1 against the Spurs, down by 1. He was killing the Spurs with his 3-point shooting.

I don't know who is the most overrated player ever, but nowadays Ewing doesn't exactly gets loads of praise upon him for the most part, so it's not him. He does however, get too much of a pass for his horrible offensive performance in the 94' Finals while everyone blames Starks. Even after Starks's game 7 miss-a-thon, he still ended up with a higher FG percentage (a much higher TS%) than Ewing for the series and at least was able to get to the line.

[SmackOrH.A.K]

he'd be the best center in the league right now.

too bad he played in the era of hakeem, d-rob, & shaq

[HurricaneKid]

You might have a point If:

a) Ewing didn't lead the Howays to a title in the collegiate level (including beating Jordan and the Tarheels and Hakeem's Houston team).
b) any other star in that era dominated by winning multiple college titles

The you might have a point. But given the way that things actually played out you simply don't.



There is so much wrong with this I don't even know where to start. You state that he wasn't even "the best in the league" while neglecting to mention that he played in the golden era of centers, while also overrating the importance of athleticism, and downplaying just how athletic Ewing is.

For a big man even in this era Ewing would have elite length, strength and bulk with above average speed, leaping ability and mobility. Can you say the same for Spencer Hawes?

Hell I'd even say that Ewing is plenty more athletic than even a prime Tim Duncan, and look how he is playing during this so-called advanced era.



So you claim you saw young Ewing and compare him to Hibbert? Bullshit. Hibbert isn't half the athlete Ewing was.

Additionally how certain are we that Pop had to take Duncan out? Pop made the decision in '13 to sit Duncan and it bit him in the ass. When given the chance the following season, it sure looked to me like he decided the to bet on the "unathletic" Duncan and it won him a title.

If Duncan is athletic enough at 38 to win a title; prime Ewing would do just fine.

You seem to be taking this wrong. I think he is probably the best college player in my lifetime. Which is why people expected his NBA career to be better.

Yes, he played in the golden age of the C. The rules of the game provided them the advantages in that age. I was making the point that they no longer do so and we appoint players of the past with rankings based on today's game. And he would struggle away from teh basket in this age. Its not really all that arguable. He was several years older than Robinson but within 3 years of DRob coming into the league he was definitively the better player for the remainder of their time together in the league.

I was not the one that compared him to Hawes. I said if you are going to compare him to guys like Hawes he can't be in an alltime great conversation. I think Ewing was a far better athlete than that. But he wasn't the speediest fellow.

Ewing does not have better than average mobility compared to the full time C in the league - Dwight Howard, Tim Duncan (prime?? Are you out of your mind??), etc.

How certain are we? Pop made his calculations, Vogel made his, both took out elite rim defenders when perimeter defense became important. I don't know who you are but for now I'm going to assume:

Pop, Vogel >>>>>>>>>>>>> some guy that thinks Ewing's athleticism > Peak Duncan.

[Real14]

he'd be the best center in the league right now.

too bad he played in the era of hakeem, d-rob, & shaq
Too bad John Starks was off those last two games:banghead:

[HurricaneKid]

Too bad John Starks was off those last two games:banghead:

Too bad Ewing was off all 7.

[Real14]

Too bad Ewing was off all 7.
Not really, but starks needed to hit those shots man. Ewing and Hakeem would each have 1 ring.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Ewing is better than every center the league has seen since Shaq declined in 2006.

[tpols]

How certain are we? Pop made his calculations, Vogel made his, both took out elite rim defenders when perimeter defense became important. I don't know who you are but for now I'm going to assume:

Pop, Vogel >>>>>>>>>>>>> some guy that thinks Ewing's athleticism > Peak Duncan.

lol both those coaches got burnt on those decisions.. literally cost them playoff ball games. Great examples.

[Round Mound]

Ewing is better than every center the league has seen since Shaq declined in 2006.

:applause:

[MiseryCityTexas]

Didn't Patrick Ewing's Knicks knock Larry Bird's Celtics out of the play-offs? Jordan has never done that.

[L.Kizzle]

Didn't Patrick Ewing's Knicks knock Larry Bird's Celtics out of the play-offs? Jordan has never done that.
Dennis Johnson had retired.
Bird was a year away from retirement
McHale 2 years
Parish old as shit
Reggie Lewis was good.

[Stringer Bell]

Too bad John Starks was off those last two games:banghead:

Starks had an excellent game 6. Game 7 he was awful.

Ewing shot poorly in 6 of the 7 games, including a dreadful game 3. Games 3 and 6 were as close as you could get and Ewing's offense was awful. Missing from all over and not getting to the line. Even after Starks went 2-18 in game 7, and also 3-18 in game 1, he still ended up with better offensive numbers than Ewing.

Ewing did do a very good job at blocking shots and rebounding though.


Not really, but starks needed to hit those shots man. Ewing and Hakeem would each have 1 ring.

Ewing needed to hit his shots. He was the franchise player and laid a giant turd offensively.

Starks had a better series offensively than Ewing.

[NBASTATMAN]

:roll: Get the f*ck out of here you 8 year old. Nobody talks about him.

Prime Ewing would be the best player in the league right now... At worst, second best.

At worst a top 3 player with Lebron and Durant 1 and 2

[bizil]

I don't see how Big Pat is overrated! He's FOR SURE a top 10 GOAT center. And for sure one of the 50 greatest players of all time. But I think what hurts Pat is the fact that he really didn't revolutionize the center position like Mikan, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Robinson, or Shaq before him. I would say Moses and Pat probably redefined the center position the least out of the great centers. But Moses was more dominant than Pat in terms of numbers and overall career resume. So unless u are putting Pat in the top 6-7 centers ever, I don't think he's overrated. He's usually rated in the top 35 players of all time, which is fair.

At his best, u got a great scorer, great rebounder, and great defender at the center position. Which is AWESOME because GUESS HOW MANY CENTERS are like that today? NONE!!! The only centers that blended all three as well were Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, and David. Even with Shaq and Moses, I think Pat was a better defender.

[Lebron23]

He's getting underrated. If Ewing had a better sidekick than John Stacks his knicks would have beaten Jordan Bulls. Put Pippen with Ewing's Knicks and they would be winning championship.

[Roundball_Rock]

Probably rated. Top 35-40 all-time.

[SamuraiSWISH]

He's getting underrated. If Ewing had a better sidekick than John Stacks his knicks would have beaten Jordan Bulls. Put Pippen with Ewing's Knicks and they would be winning championship.
Not if Mike has an adequate sidekick.

Give him Stacey Augmon, and Mookie Blaylock and it’s GAME OVER for NYC again.

:oldlol:

[Gimmedarock]

He’s an old school center so it’s a given he’s overrated. Embid would feast on old school centers.

[Carbine]

I'm not sure his defense would be nearly as valuable today as it was back then, but you have to judge the players in which era they played in.

He was a monster on defense in those days. He was for the most part a reliable #1 scorer in the playoffs. That's a pretty great combination right there.

I'd take him over David Robinson, for example

[Roundball_Rock]

I'm not sure his defense would be nearly as valuable today as it was back then, but you have to judge the players in which era they played in.

He was a monster on defense in those days. He was for the most part a reliable #1 scorer in the playoffs. That's a pretty great combination right there.

I'd take him over David Robinson, for example

52.8% TS as a center from 88'-97' is reliable playoff scoring? His playoff scoring was 22.5 PPG during that time frame. He was 51.5% TS for 22.4 PPG during his best window for chips, 1992-1995. This is horrific for a center.

Ewing was very inefficient compared to his star center peers in the playoffs (Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Mourning, Daughtery).

[Carbine]

For the most part.

He was prone to bad series, but for the most part he was reliable to get you the 25+ a night.

What's his contemporaries shooting, 55 TS in the playoffs?

The 2 percent difference means pretty much nothing to me. He was also going against the great Chicago defenses in the playoffs yearly, Hakeem, played the Bad Boy pistons early in his career, etc.

You're going to see regression there from regular season efficiency. The west, for example, didn't have these defensive juggernaughts every year that Hakeem had to play against. Maybe I'm wrong, I'm sure you'll correct me if I am.

[Roundball_Rock]

Playoff TS% for "prime" years (RS level in parentheses):

Ewing 88’-97’: 52.8% (56.3%)
Robinson 90’-98’: 54.9% (59.0%)
Shaq 94’-05’: 56.7% (58.4%)
Mourning 94’-00’: 54.8% (58.7%)
Daughtery 88'-94': 58.8% (59.4%)
Hakeem 86’-97’: 57.8% (55.8%)

He is 6% behind best in class. Robinson is the biggest decliner but he is coming from a high level so still finishes 2.1% better than Ewing.