A sad situation. When being unselfish hurts your standing in history.

[Kblaze8855]

3 guys come to mind....

1.

Doctor J....widely considered the best basketball player in the world when he was in the ABA. He comes to the NBA to join a team of...lets be real...asshole ballhogs. Hes playing with World B Free(an upcoming feature in my "**** it" players series), George Mcginnis(who missed the shot to tie game 6 of the 77 finals when he insisted he could beat his man), Darryl Dawkins who just wanted to show off, Doug Collins who was good but a scorer first and second, and even Kobes dad who ive heard was a bit of a ball stopper. Does he come in and insist on being the focal point and getting shots like in the ABA? No. He took 25 shots a game some years in the ABA. He took almost 1900 shots last season in the ABA. Dropped to 1300 in the NBA. The best attacker the world had ever seen gave up 500 shots to play his part and not rock the boat. And it worked. Not as well as him taking over perhaps...as they didnt win in his first few years. But they contended from day one. Make the finals and lose....while Doc decides to push his scoring back into the upper 30s. But he didnt really do it that often. He didnt want to tell these guys "Im Doctor ****ing J!" but nobody in the world could really stop him and every player you ask from the time knew it.

The only 2 season he got to 19 shots a game in the NBA....he won the MVP one year and finished second to Kareem the other. But Doc kept right along playing nice. Made 4 finals and did win a ring. But a meaner less teammate friendly Doctor J may have led a dynasty in philly.

And worse....he really tainted his legacy(a word ive come to hate) by giving off the impression that he was anything less than a monster in the NBA. People see his NBA numbers decline from the ABA and act like he just fell off playing the big boys. Myself sadly among them when I was younger.

But Doctor J was looked at with awe even by other all time greats. But he didnt take shine from his teammates. He let Toney shine...George...Moses...Collins...Dawkins...World B. Free, Cheeks, Jones, and later Barkley.

He didnt hurt anyones feelings nobody ever had a bad word to say about him and he falls from "A lot of people think hes the best player they ever saw" to getting laughs when someone ranks him top 10.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADC0ltClxWQ

Look around the 3 minute mark in there. That is how the world saw Doc when he retired. The opposing teams fans give him a standing ovation and the commentator compares him not to Wilt or Oscar or Magic...

He ranks him next to Jesse Owens and Joe Dimaggio. But you look at where hes ranked now...those 20-22ppg seasons and playing nice as his teammates shot them out of games get him knocked way down.


2.

Earl Monroe.

Earl is another guy spoken of almost as a god on the bullets and in college/HS/the streets. He was dropping 23-26 a game on the Bullets...led his team to the finals. Hes dropping 28, 28, and 22 a game in the playoffs on teams that made noise. Made one finals and lost in 7 to an all time great Knicks team another year(he put up 28 on 48% shooting in the series).

He gets into a contract dispute with his team and decides to jump to the ABA. At the last minute his team decides to extend him for like 3 years...at half what the ABA offered. And at the time the league owned you. They would have sued to keep him from playing in the ABA. And won. The Warriors did it with Rick Barry and made him sit out a season. The Lakers did it with Wilt when he was gonna be a player/coach in I think 74.

So hes stuck...but unhappy...so they are gonna trade him. But they showed him the respect of offering him a choice....he decided he was willing to go play as a role player on the Knicks.

The supposedly most selfish shot happy player in basketball willingly accepts a trade to go be a role player and score 11ppg while his nemesis Walt Frazier gets the shots and the love from history.

This guy went from all nba first team to not even being an all star for 3 years. Won a ring...but nobody cares.

He stays on the Bullets perhaps hes in a trio with Hayes and Unseld and instead of making 3 finals and winning one maybe they make 5-6 and win 4. He might be ranked top 15-20 all time right now...instead hes approaching "Who?" status aside from a really well known nickname.

3.

Wilt on the Lakers.

By all accounts Wilt was doing exactly what he was asked to do. He didnt turn his teammates into spectators by shooting a lot. He didnt statpad assists at the expense of making his own easy baskets. He just played all out help defense, made his man play honest to keep driving lanes open, would fling outlet passes 60 feet to start the break, he set epic picks to free up West and Goodrich, and he scored when asked or when he got the rebound right next to the basket.

So his team played amazing ball at one point not losing for 3 months and won the title and made a few other finals 2 of which were within a single play of going his way.


And now he gets hated on for not scoring more in his winning days...when he proved he could. He dropped 66 points on I think 29-35 shooting vs the Suns when SI ran an article questioning if he still could. This guy...who could probably still drop 40 a game....decided...to let his teammates shine, pass the ball, rebound, block shots, and let the non informed believe he was washed up. While his great rival Bill Russell(a commentator for CBS at the time) praised him for playing the role he himself played for the Celtics...but being better than him at it.

And 40 years later his PPG gets laughed at.





For all we talk about being unselfish we sure do knock guys who take a hit to their stats in the process of winning.

What modern players do you think are getting/will get that longterm treatment where maybe they would be better off having been more focused on themselves?

I could see Manu being one.

I think a lot of spurs fans overrated him.....but hes better than his numbers thats for sure.

And I cant see him even coming up as a great player down the line. 2 time all star having 15-16ppg seasons at 27-28? Hes kinda the new Earl Monroe except he never had his Bullets run to put people on notice that his lack of tangible production is by choice.

For a trait we all seem to admire why are so many unselfish players overlooked?

Maybe the assholes have it right. You get remembered for 22ppg and losing in the second round.

Being a 11ppg role player on a winner?

That just makes you Ron Harper...who was by the way a 20/6/5 2 steals a game player the year before he joined the Bulls...he recovered nicely from his injuries. But he becomes a 6ppg defensive role player months after he was a star on the Clippers. He had 30/9/8 in his last full game on the clippers and never had 30 again in his life. He might have had 10 20 point nights the rest of his career. But I kinda doubt it. Dude just turned to a straight up stopper and backup point playing totally selfless to win.

He goes from star to 6ppg and hes remembered as a role player. But he won 5 rings and didnt win them as some scrub. He just didnt choose to assert himself and rock the boat.

I try to remember players for what they can do more than what their role allows especially if they are playing an important role on a winner. But its hard sometimes.

Who do you see getting the Manu/Ron Harper treatment longterm?

And how much do you respect role players who decide to do it and arent forced into it by a lack of skills?

Do you give them a spot next to the guys they probably could be but arent ego driven enough to attempt to do it?

[Mamba]

another A+ post by Kblaze. :applause:

Dunking from the freethrow line back then when it is still considered an awe inspiring dunk these days sais enough on how athletic and ahead of his time his game was. The guy was ruling the ABA because he could do it any which way he wanted to.

Amazing post Kblaze simply amazing

[Scholar]

Who do you see getting the Manu/Ron Harper treatment longterm?

Current players who I think will receive this rep are:
Metta World Peace: went from 17+ PPG to >13 (even below 10 ppg the first couple seasons) after becoming a Laker. Dude probably won't be remembered for being a defensive beast.

Jason Terry: there was a time when the Jet dropped 20 a night without a problem. Now he's a bench player. Some will barely remember how much he mattered in the 2011 Finals, while others will barely remember him beyond his flying signature taunt.

Amare Stoudemire: go ahead and hate on him if you want, but he went from 26 PPG to now being a bench player. Injuries will do that to you, sure, but I think people will completely ignore Stoudemire's offensive presence in a few years. I think some will claim he didn't do shit once he left PHX, but the guy held (maybe still holds.. Idk) the record for most consecutive 30+ points for the Knicks. That's pretty damn impressive.

and...





Dwayne Wade.

Yes, DWade. Even though he's averaging 20+ PPG every year, you can already see people are referring to him merely as a sidekick. I don't think he'll get the proper respect he deserves when it's all said and done. People will just give credit to LeBron. And maybe some of it will be accurate (his injuries made him almost a no-show in the 2013 Playoffs/Finals), but you take Wade off this Heat roster and I doubt they appear in 3 straight Finals.


And how much do you respect role players who decide to do it and arent forced into it by a lack of skills?

I think it's a great attribute to have. It shows the selflessness of these individual players, all of whom are striving for a bigger goal than merely receiving individual accolades.


Do you give them a spot next to the guys they probably could be but arent ego driven enough to attempt to do it?

Now this one is tough to answer...

I say these players are just as important as the star players. I still think Dr. J & DWade will be remembered as top 15-20 players of all-time. It's just sad that in a few years time, guys like Manu, Dr. J, etc., won't be remembered by the youth and by casual basketball fans. Eventually hardcore fans will move on, too. That's the world we live in, though. If you're all about the spotlight, you're forever remembered. If you step out of it, your fame dies rapidly.

[dr.hee]

Dwayne Wade.
Yes, DWade. Even though he's averaging 20+ PPG every year, you can already see people are referring to him merely as a sidekick. I don't think he'll get the proper respect he deserves when it's all said and done. People will just give credit to LeBron. And maybe some of it will be accurate (his injuries made him almost a no-show in the 2013 Playoffs/Finals), but you take Wade off this Heat roster and I doubt they appear in 3 straight Finals.


I'd add Chris Bosh. Yeah I know, he's not popular with a lot of people. But still, he's definitely capable of being more than basically a 3rd option. What is his current role? Black Ilgauskas?

[selrahc]

kobe should be added to this list. he probably couldve averaged 50ppg if he didnt pass so much.

[AboutBuckets]

I think Shawn Marion will be remembered for his ring season's rangy defense/rebounding/rounded versatile game rather than the dynamic open court player he was for those 2000's Suns teams.

[iamgine]

Dr J:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=308600

[Rooster]

Lamar Odom. The guy has that superstar game but he is very unselfish to a fault. If he was a little bit assertive, he would have consistent numbers and probably made the All Star team at least once.

[Young X]

What about KG?

[AlphaWolf24]

as far as Dr. J....

I always think of him as the premiere player of the early 80's....I know Magic and Bird changed the game.....but Dr. J was the standard!

He was that player that everyone in the league ( or youngsters on blacktop) wanted to be like.

Even when MJ first came into the league.....you could tell he modeled his game after J...even his off court persona...it was all J......everyone wanted to be Doctor J.

http://www.atariage.com/7800/boxes/b_OneOnOne_front.jpg

spent everyday after school playing this game at my boys house......Apple 2 E:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:


- I think he gets lost in the sauce now.....mainly because of Basketball's explosion in the 80's....Magic and Bird brought in a whole new fanbase who didn't watch J's whole career.....and then Jordan's era ...MJ overshadowed everyone.

- Dr. J kinda got forgotten about in a way...even if he did try and be more selfish.....I still think he would have been overshadowed a little.

now that I think about it.....He was the apple 2 E....the precedent , the innovator , maybe the funnest machine we ever had.:confusedshrug:

[I<3NBA]

Bosh.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

Thread lacks Worthy.

[inclinerator]

lebron

[fpliii]

:applause:

People really tend to ignore context when speaking of Dr. J during those first few NBA seasons. Spot on analysis, as always Kblaze.

[SCdac]

Not just Manu, I think both Manu and Parker (talking just Spurs players) would be looked at in different light had their careers/peaks been on their "own team". .... even if they were first round exit teams.

Kinda like Michael Redd had those Bucks, Ben Gordon was the best player on the Bulls for a little while. It's trial and error, but I def think Manu and Parker could have had a team like that some time in 2005-2010. Not a championship team but not horrible.

It's true though, being a role player (or better) on a highly successful team (think Rip Hamilton or Tayshaun Prince) will not exactly engrave you people's memory banks, for whatever reason.

I guess it's because we all regard "lead actor" higher than "supporting actor" when it comes time to start tallying votes.

[Twiens]

Bosh is the definition of this topic

[FatComputerNerd]

Definitely Bosh

[riseagainst]

Bosh. every lebronstan and heat bandwagoners are bagging this guy for taking many steps back and being turned into a 3 point shooter.

[SCdac]

I know I'm the minority on Bosh...

But I feel like he would have "hurt his legacy" way more had he joined the Heat 2-3 years earlier than he did (gave up on the Raptors really quickly) or 2-3 years later than he did (and the Heat still won championships without him).

His value to the Heat I'd argue has become underrated... which I guess points the gist of this thread.... but I'm of the camp that they needed/need him.

From my perspective, he proved himself in Toronto enough to know what he was independent of the Heat. Was a known commodity that teams were after. It wasn't like Manu, who never had that chance really.

If only Toronto had drafted LaMarcus Aldridge or Brandon Roy (however short lived his career was) instead of the non-rebounding non-defensive Bargs, maybe they woulda made more noise than they did.

But with the balance of being the head guy in Toronto (multiple AS appearances) and then a key cog to a championship team... I feel he played his cards better than even Lebron did. Lebron joined Wade (similar caliber player) yet Bosh was never held to that same standard because he's not an MVP, top-5 type player.

Will people remember Sheed more from Portland or from Detroit? .... I'd say Detroit, even if it wasn't the best version of him... In saying that, people remembering BOsh from the Heat will actually help him in ways.

[sdot_thadon]

Excellent post. Dr.J gets more marginalized by the year it seems and he was once the center of the basketball universe. The unselfishness in the nba did take away from his career greatly since some refuse to acknowledge his aba exploits. They basically translate his sacrifice into him being unable to dominate the same in the better league. Sucks that there was not much footage from his best years.

[9erempiree]

There's unselfish and play and there is stupidity and a failure to recognize that your teammate sucks and you need to step up and takeover.

That's what Erving's problem was, if the OP wants to start blaming his scrub teammates.

[L.Kizzle]

Clyde Drexler is the perfect example for this.

He wasn't that vocal as others, and shared the ball too much. He played with a bunch of good guys like Porter, Kiki, Kersey, Duck, Buck, ect. It's similar to the Doc J situation you posted about.

[pudman13]

The guy who comes to my mind is Dr. J's teammate, Bobby Jones, who accepted a role as a 6th man (for several years) to help his team win even though he had all-star ability as a starter (stlil has one of the greatest FG% of all time, yet was known primarily as a defensive player.) The guy was amazing--could defend anyone, could defend anybody, dunked almost as stunningly as J, but did it all with a lack of attitude and without any ego. The guy is almost completely forgotten today.

[sportjames23]

another A+ post by Kblaze. :applause:

Dunking from the freethrow line back then when it is still considered an awe inspiring dunk these days sais enough on how athletic and ahead of his time his game was. The guy was ruling the ABA because he could do it any which way he wanted to.

Amazing post Kblaze simply amazing


Truth.

Damn, Blaze, you brought the thunder with this thread. :cheers:

[Kblaze8855]

I dont know if Bosh is really hurt by it. He went from being a vin Baker/Derrick coleman type winning 25-40 games most years wit ha peak of 47 and a first round exit to one of the most watched players in the world on a likely dynasty that will get him remembered. He was heading down a Bob Lanier path at best. Known by real fans but not actually accomplishing much of anything.

Now hes on more of a Worthy path.

Doc, Earl, and wilt were all nba first team types who had won before they did the things in question. Doc ABA titles, Monroe had been t othe finals, and Wilt already had a ring.

Bosh probably increased his profile even with the reduced stats.

[Bandito]

I think Chris Bosh has that same problem. He is playing with two ball stoppers in Lebron and Wade and had to sacrifice a lot in order to make that team unstoppable, even playing out of position at center when he is obviously not one.

His stats went down from superstar stats 25 pts and 10 rbs to how much like 17 and 8 in the Heat? I respect Bosh a lot because of that fact. Without him the Heat don't win.

[Kblaze8855]

Putting up 22/9 or 23/10 on teams that won 33, 33, 27, 47(first round loss), 41, 33, and 40 games or doing 18/8 or 17/9 on a team that goes to 3 straight finals and might win 3-5 rings?

Im thinking he comes out more respected being on the Heat. Hes no doubt a bigger star. Wilt on Philly, Monroe on the Bullets, and Doc in the ABa went from Wilt playing the best anyone ever had, Monroe leading a finals team and being all nba first team, and Doc being called the best player ever by some....

To Wilt being mocked in the media for falling off and laughed at over ppg for 40 years, Monroe being a 11-12ppg role player who didnt even make the ASG for 3 years, and Doc had people asking where the real Doctor J went and if he was overrated all along.

Bosh is gonna go from 23/9 50 games under .500 to being a multiple time champion on the most famous team of his era.

I suppose you could compare it to a monroe if Bosh had ever won anything. But generally speaking I think Boshs standing in history rises by going to the Heat.

Its like if Mcdyess were traded from Denver to the Lakers in 1999. Sure he does from ALL nba 21/11 star of his own team to being a distant #3. But in 30 years people would remember him being on that dynasty. Nobody is gonna know dudes name in 30 years now.

Though I suppose there is the Glen Rice possibility. Star to role player on a champion and people forget you were even there.

But I dont see it. Bosh went from good but nobody has reason to remember it to good on a famous dynasty. I think he wins long term. There was nothing but more losing for him in Toronto.

[chips93]

Lamar Odom. The guy has that superstar game but he is very unselfish to a fault. If he was a little bit assertive, he would have consistent numbers and probably made the All Star team at least once.


i think odom just doesnt have the aggression to he a great player, not neccessarily excessively unselfish

[Iceman#44]

Good, very good post. All true, especially on Earl The Pearl.


Monroe scores 24.3, 25.8, 23.4 and 21.4 ppg in his first 4 years in the League, including 22.1 ppg in 70-71 playoffs when he plays in the Finals with the Bullets. Then he won a title with the Knicks in 73 scoring just 14-15 points x game and nobody cares about him. Very sad.

And i always think about that 69-70 season for Wilt, when he broke his knee...
With the Lakers coach asking him to score again in big numbers, he was averaging 32.2 ppg, then his knee left him. Damn, im sure it would be one of his greatest season ever!

[embersyc]

Sheed Wallace deserves a mention in this thread.

[LAZERUSS]

Good, very good post. All true, especially on Earl The Pearl.


Monroe scores 24.3, 25.8, 23.4 and 21.4 ppg in his first 4 years in the League, including 22.1 ppg in 70-71 playoffs when he plays in the Finals with the Bullets. Then he won a title with the Knicks in 73 scoring just 14-15 points x game and nobody cares about him. Very sad.

And i always think about that 69-70 season for Wilt, when he broke his knee...
With the Lakers coach asking him to score again in big numbers, he was averaging 32.2 ppg, then his knee left him. Damn, im sure it would be one of his greatest season ever!

I don't know if it would have been Wilt's greatest season ever, but it is often overlooked in his career. Few here know that Wilt's new coach, Joe Mullaney, who had replaced the incompetent Butch Van Breda Kolf, came to Wilt before the season started, and asked him to become the focal point of the offense again.

And while it was only nine games in, when Chamberlain shredded his knee, the fact was, he was leading the league in scoring, at 32.2 ppg, grabbing 20 rpg, and shooting .579 from the floor. Interesting too, that teammate Jerry West who was averaging 30.8 ppg when Wilt went down, wound up leading the league in scoring at 31.2 ppg. So, LA likely could have had two 30+ ppg scorers that year.

And Wilt's numbers weren't skewed by one big game in those nine contests, either. He had games of 33, 35, 37, 38, 42, and 43 points, and in another, dominated rookie Kareem with a 25-20-5-3 game on 9-14 shooting from the floor. In fact, in the game in which he blew out his knee, he had scored 33 points on 13-14 shooting.

In any case, this could have been Wilt's eighth scoring title, and given the fact that Elvin Hayes would lead the league in rebounding, at 16.9 rpg, and Johnny Green would lead the league in FG% at .559, Chamberlain likely would have won his 12th rebounding title, and his tenth FG% title.

Of course, Chamberlain is not only the only player to ever lead the league in scoring, rebounding, and FG% in the same season, but he did it three times. This could have been his 4th.

[LAZERUSS]

V3.

Wilt on the Lakers.

By all accounts Wilt was doing exactly what he was asked to do. He didnt turn his teammates into spectators by shooting a lot. He didnt statpad assists at the expense of making his own easy baskets. He just played all out help defense, made his man play honest to keep driving lanes open, would fling outlet passes 60 feet to start the break, he set epic picks to free up West and Goodrich, and he scored when asked or when he got the rebound right next to the basket.

So his team played amazing ball at one point not losing for 3 months and won the title and made a few other finals 2 of which were within a single play of going his way.


And now he gets hated on for not scoring more in his winning days...when he proved he could. He dropped 66 points on I think 29-35 shooting vs the Suns when SI ran an article questioning if he still could. This guy...who could probably still drop 40 a game....decided...to let his teammates shine, pass the ball, rebound, block shots, and let the non informed believe he was washed up. While his great rival Bill Russell(a commentator for CBS at the time) praised him for playing the role he himself played for the Celtics...but being better than him at it.

And 40 years later his PPG gets laughed at.


The stupidity level on this forum amazes me.

Wilt gets bashed for scoring 30 ppg (with 31 rpg, and on a .555 FG%...and a .560 true TS%), while taking a cast of clowns to a game seven, one point loss, against the greatest dynasty in NBA history (and against the greatest defensive player in NBA history)...

and then gets reamed because he "only" puts up a 19 ppg, 23.2 rpg, .600 FG% Finals...which included a clinching game performance of 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 8 blocks...

because his teammates "carried" him.

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[Gifted Mind]

This thread is a disgrace without the mention of John Havlicek

[hateraid]

1.

Doctor J....widely considered the best basketball player in the world when he was in the ABA. He comes to the NBA to join a team of...lets be real...asshole ballhogs. Hes playing with World B Free(an upcoming feature in my "**** it" players series), George Mcginnis(who missed the shot to tie game 6 of the 77 finals when he insisted he could beat his man), Darryl Dawkins who just wanted to show off, Doug Collins who was good but a scorer first and second, and even Kobes dad who ive heard was a bit of a ball stopper. Does he come in and insist on being the focal point and getting shots like in the ABA? No. He took 25 shots a game some years in the ABA. He took almost 1900 shots last season in the ABA. Dropped to 1300 in the NBA. The best attacker the world had ever seen gave up 500 shots to play his part and not rock the boat. And it worked. Not as well as him taking over perhaps...as they didnt win in his first few years. But they contended from day one. Make the finals and lose....while Doc decides to push his scoring back into the upper 30s. But he didnt really do it that often. He didnt want to tell these guys "Im Doctor ****ing J!" but nobody in the world could really stop him and every player you ask from the time knew it.

The only 2 season he got to 19 shots a game in the NBA....he won the MVP one year and finished second to Kareem the other. But Doc kept right along playing nice. Made 4 finals and did win a ring. But a meaner less teammate friendly Doctor J may have led a dynasty in philly.

And worse....he really tainted his legacy(a word ive come to hate) by giving off the impression that he was anything less than a monster in the NBA. People see his NBA numbers decline from the ABA and act like he just fell off playing the big boys. Myself sadly among them when I was younger.

But Doctor J was looked at with awe even by other all time greats. But he didnt take shine from his teammates. He let Toney shine...George...Moses...Collins...Dawkins...World B. Free, Cheeks, Jones, and later Barkley.

He didnt hurt anyones feelings nobody ever had a bad word to say about him and he falls from "A lot of people think hes the best player they ever saw" to getting laughs when someone ranks him top 10.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADC0ltClxWQ

Look around the 3 minute mark in there. That is how the world saw Doc when he retired. The opposing teams fans give him a standing ovation and the commentator compares him not to Wilt or Oscar or Magic...

He ranks him next to Jesse Owens and Joe Dimaggio. But you look at where hes ranked now...those 20-22ppg seasons and playing nice as his teammates shot them out of games get him knocked way down.




To the people who tell others that if they don't think Jordan is the GOAT then they were to young to watch him play. My dad thinks Dr.J was better. Those who think otherwise were too young to see him play

[bdreason]

I don't buy the Wilt example. His team was worse when he was scoring 40+ ppg. It's not surprising he won his first title when he tried to lead the league in APG, and his second title when he focused on team offense and defense. I think the real question with Wilt should be, if he hadn't been a selfish stat whore the majority of his career, could he have won more than just 2 titles?

[Kblaze8855]

Considering that he always did exactly what he was told....score the most ever....pass more than anyone as good as he was likely would....or stop shooting and defend and rebound...

Isnt is more an issue of if his early coaches knew how to best use him?

He didnt play himself 48.5 minutes a season and say he wanted 50ppg. his coach played him and told him to do it.

What is he supposed to do? Say **** off?

He scored his ass off, passed his ass off, and then did nothing but block shots, rebound, set picks, dunk gimme baskets, and fire outlet passes.

Whatever he was told to do he did. Better than anyone.

Its his fault he wasnt always asked to do the same thing every year?

[LAZERUSS]

I don't buy the Wilt example. His team was worse when he was scoring 40+ ppg. It's not surprising he won his first title when he tried to lead the league in APG, and his second title when he focused on team offense and defense. I think the real question with Wilt should be, if he hadn't been a selfish stat whore the majority of his career, could he have won more than just 2 titles?

Wilt came to a LAST PLACE team in his rookie season. They IMMEDIATELY jumped to a 49-26 record.

In Wilt's 61-62 post-season, he took essentially the same core of that last place team, single-handedly thru the first round of the playoffs, and then to a game seven, two point loss to a HOF-laden 60-20 Celtic team. Oh, and BTW, his teammates collectively shot .354 from the floor in that post-season. How do explain that?

Or Chamberlain taking a laughingstock roster in 63-64, with his second best player being Tom Meschery, to a 48-32 record, and then single-handedly carrying them past a Hawks team that was WAY better players 2-5 in the first round of the playoffs. And while his team lost to Boston in Finals, 4-1, the last two games were decided in the waning seconds. Oh, and BTW, the Celtics enjoyed an 8-2 edge in HOFers (and Wilt's lone HOF teammate was rookie Nate Thurmond, who played part-time, and out of his natural position, and shot poorly in doing so.)

Or Wilt being traded midway thru the 64-65 season, for three players, to a Sixers team that had gone 34-46 the year before, and failed to make the playoffs. And then single-handedly leading that 40-40 team to a first round romp over the loaded 48-32 Royals, and then to a game seven, one point loss to a 62-18 Celtic team that was at the height of it's dynasty. Oh, and with a 30 ppg 31 rpg, .555 FG% (.560 true TS%) series.

Or that the Warrior team he left would move Thurmond to the center spot, where he would go on to have a HOF career, and draft HOFer Rick Barry, and still could only go 35-45. Or that they would add players like Cyle Lee and Jeff Mullins to that roster, and that Meschery would now be their seventh best player, and in a year in which Thurmond averaged a 19-21, and Barry led the NBA in scoring at 35.6 ppg...they could still only go 44-37...or considerably worse than Wilt's last season there (and Chamberlain's 64 roster had nowhere near the talent that that 66-67 Warrior team had.)

Or that Wilt would lead the league in scoring, rebounding, and FG% in his 65-66 season, and also lead his team to the best record in the league. And during the regular season, in nine h2h's with Boston, averaged 28.3 ppg, 30.7 rpg, and shot .525 from the field...and his Sixers had a 6-3 record against the Celtics. And then in their '66 EDF's, Chamberlain averaged 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg, and shot .509 from the field...or nearly identical to what he did to them in the regular season...and yet his TEAM lost to the Celtics, 4-1. How come you ask? His teammates shot an overall .352 in that series. Now, how can you possibly blame Chamberlain for that?

[pudman13]

This thread is a disgrace without the mention of John Havlicek

That's a good point. When the Celtics were good his numbers were modest. When they were not and he had to carry the team, he averaged 28.9 PPG, 9.0 RPG and 7.5 APG, then 27.5, 8.2 and 7.5, averaging more than 45 minutes per game both seasons. In their championship seasons (including '74 and '76) he shared the glory.

[ProfessorMurder]

That's a good point. When the Celtics were good his numbers were modest. When they were not and he had to carry the team, he averaged 28.9 PPG, 9.0 RPG and 7.5 APG, then 27.5, 8.2 and 7.5, averaging more than 45 minutes per game both seasons. In their championship seasons (including '74 and '76) he shared the glory.

Bonkers numbers.

[Kblaze8855]

I saw some posts in another topic on DR.Js PER and was reminded of this. Dr.J had he chosen to do so...with all the running teams did back then...I bet he could have been a 34/9/6 player and be much more respected. Nobody could guard him. Bobby Jones 9-10 times all D first team mostly off man to man D...Doc hands him what....63 once? 35-40 a game in the finals?

I wish he unleashed that more often.

[Smoke117]

You could add Scottie Pippen to this list too. An unselfish player who put aside statistics to win championships and play team ball. Even when Jordan retired in the 94 season he only averaged 17.8 shots a game. He was such a great team player and one of those rare guys who made his teammates better because he never cared about taking 20+ shots even when Jordan was gone and the Bulls were his. The Bulls were so good in 94 for exactly that reason...that 94 Bulls team played some of the greatest most unselfish team ball ever. Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong basically had career years and made the all star team (which frankly BJ never should have lol) because the Bulls played some of the best team ball I've ever seen led by Scottie. They won 2 less games than the 93 season and likely had a chance at winning 60 and definitely more than the 93 team if Scottie didn't miss those 10 games which they wemy 4-6 and Grant himself the 2nd best player player on that 94 season didn't miss 12 games. In the 1993 season with Jordan, Pippen played 81 games, Jordan 78, and Grant 77. They won 2 more games when all three of their best players played almost every single game and won two less when Pippen missed 10 games (and they went 4-6 like i said) and Grant their 2nd best player missed 12 games himself. if Scottie payed 81 games and Grant 77 a 60 win season wasn't out of the picture. To this day i've never seen a team play such great team ball. They barely lost a step when Jordan left because of Pippen who was the consumate team player. He made everyone around him better while being the best scorer, by far the best defensive player, the best play maker/passer and was attacking the boards averaging 8.7rpg 2nd to Grant. He basically did everything for the team while being the ultimate unselfish team player.

[iamgine]

I saw some posts in another topic on DR.Js PER and was reminded of this. Dr.J had he chosen to do so...with all the running teams did back then...I bet he could have been a 34/9/6 player and be much more respected. Nobody could guard him. Bobby Jones 9-10 times all D first team mostly off man to man D...Doc hands him what....63 once? 35-40 a game in the finals?

I wish he unleashed that more often.
Meh, Mcadoo isn't really respected either despite having the numbers.

I kinda disagree with your assessment of Dr J. Other than his first season in the NBA, he only really gave up about 1-2 shots compared to his ABA years. That's perfectly reasonable. You have to take into account that he's playing much less minutes in the NBA.

Also, he's shooting less but his efficiency doesn't improve. Plus all his stats dropped when he got to the NBA. That indicates that he does fell off, if only by a little bit.

Of course, had Moses went to town a little sooner, we'd put Dr J up there with Bird/Magic.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

You could add Scottie Pippen to this list too. An unselfish player who put aside statistics to win championships and play team ball. Even when Jordan retired in the 94 season he only averaged 17.8 shots a game. He was such a great team player and one of those rare guys who made his teammates better because he never cared about taking 20+ shots even when Jordan was gone and the Bulls were his. The Bulls were so good in 94 for exactly that reason...that 94 Bulls team played some of the greatest most unselfish team ball ever. Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong basically had career years and made the all star team (which frankly BJ never should have lol) because the Bulls played some of the best team ball I've ever seen led by Scottie. They won 2 less games than the 93 season and likely had a chance at winning 60 and definitely more than the 93 team if Scottie didn't miss those 10 games which they wemy 4-6 and Grant himself the 2nd best player player on that 94 season didn't miss 12 games. In the 1993 season with Jordan, Pippen played 81 games, Jordan 78, and Grant 77. They won 2 more games when all three of their best players played almost every single game and won two less when Pippen missed 10 games (and they went 4-6 like i said) and Grant their 2nd best player missed 12 games himself. if Scottie payed 81 games and Grant 77 a 60 win season wasn't out of the picture. To this day i've never seen a team play such great team ball. They barely lost a step when Jordan left because of Pippen who was the consumate team player. He made everyone around him better while being the best scorer, by far the best defensive player, the best play maker/passer and was attacking the boards averaging 8.7rpg 2nd to Grant. He basically did everything for the team while being the ultimate unselfish team player.
Knowledgable basketball fans know that pippen was just as important to these teams or more important than MJ.
they replaced MJ and they only lose two more games... why?? Scottie Pippen.
ultimate Team player and winning player. could do everything, could drop 30-40 if needed, could dish 12 assists, could get 10 boards, could defend just about everyone.
the real star of the bulls dynasty:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[SHAQisGOAT]

The guy who comes to my mind is Dr. J's teammate, Bobby Jones, who accepted a role as a 6th man (for several years) to help his team win even though he had all-star ability as a starter (stlil has one of the greatest FG% of all time, yet was known primarily as a defensive player.) The guy was amazing--could defend anyone, could defend anybody, dunked almost as stunningly as J, but did it all with a lack of attitude and without any ego. The guy is almost completely forgotten today.

:applause:

[Reggie43]

Jeff Hornaceck for me never got his due because of playing with alltime greats Stockton and Malone.

[Kblaze8855]

Meh, Mcadoo isn't really respected either despite having the numbers.

I kinda disagree with your assessment of Dr J. Other than his first season in the NBA, he only really gave up about 1-2 shots compared to his ABA years. That's perfectly reasonable. You have to take into account that he's playing much less minutes in the NBA.

Also, he's shooting less but his efficiency doesn't improve. Plus all his stats dropped when he got to the NBA. That indicates that he does fell off, if only by a little bit.

Of course, had Moses went to town a little sooner, we'd put Dr J up there with Bird/Magic.

Bob was injured and never got back to his Braves/Clippers level.

And Doc...he isn't one who would start attacking and shoot worse. When he played passive he was left a lot of pullup jumpers and last minute shots that he didn't have to take when he was just coming right at you.

ABA Doc...and attacking NBA Doc...he didn't let the offense really even get set up. He would come down the court and go straight to the basket and get it done. Shooting less but having more of those shots be jumpers when he wasn't really a shooter is one reason his shooting didn't go up that much.

Even when he was old and I thought he was overrated...I didn't know much about prime Doc...just that an old guy who didn't score much was the most respected person in the league...even then...he could go to the basket on anyone and score with the best of them. But he would just play his role and score a couple times on jumpers early...chill and not be noticed for like 20 minutes...score 4 times in a row in transition in the 3rd...then not do shit in the 4th till 30 seconds were left then he might attack a little.

He was old but even then he clearly could have gone in. This is the Doctor J I knew:

http://youtu.be/P1C7FSrGKWw?t=3m36s


Last game of his career his last two baskets he drives into traffic and finishes with the left hand then comes down and wets a 3 and retires.

He always seemed on the verge of just taking over and scoring 40...but he wouldn't. He would score in bursts and then just go invisible.

Unselfish to a fault really. EVen when he was scoring...he wasn't just trying to kill you. 77 finals Doc...should have been every day Doc. He could have done it at will almost his entire career.

[Warners0]

Tim Duncan comes to mind

[iamgine]

An interesting thing is Dr J played with Bobby Jones, another guy who was also pure class, perhaps even more than doc.

[iamgine]

Will Dwyane Wade someday make this list?

Supposedly after losing in 2011, Wade and Lebron met up in the postseason and gave up his throne to Lebron so that they could win. Well now Lebron is Jordan and Wade is...less than Pippen.

[Dro]

GREAT thread Kblaze....Makes me feel like a fool for not putting Dr. J in my top 10...Growing up, he was always the best on the planet, way before MJ. So good that everyone thought he actually invented the dunk.

[BoutPractice]

Simmons always speaks of the "secret" and if there is a secret it's probably this: just because you can score on command doesn't mean you should always press the button. Playing the game the right way is about responding to the particular situation, the moment. Sometimes the moment calls for it, sometimes it doesn't. Players like Bird, Duncan, Magic, LeBron, Wilt at his best have understood this - you don't win by showing off but by showing up. If failing to show off hurts your legacy, then those who write your legacy are idiots.

[LAZERUSS]

If you combine Dr. J's ABA and NBA careers, he certainly has a strong case for a Top-10 all-time career.

And like MANY players, he hit his peak early in his career. Still, we will never know exactly how great a full NBA career would have turned out. The problem with his ABA career, is that it came in a league that was devoid of top-level talent. For all those that argue the NBA-ABA exhibition games as some kind of gauge, the reality was, by the early 70's, most all of the best players that the ABA had had, were in the NBA.

And it is no coincidence that the best players that played in both leagues, usually put up considerably better numbers in their ABA careers, particularly in terms of shooting efficiencies. Players like Barry, Hawkins, and Cunningham shot well above their normal NBA FG%'s.

Still, I would assume that a peak Erving would have put up greater numbers than what he eventually posted in his NBA career. But the other question would have been, would Erving, Barry, and Gilmore have won more NBA championships, had their careers been entirely played in the NBA? IMHO, they probably have only had a small three year window, from '73-74 thru the last year of the ABA, '75-76 (of course, Barry DID win a ring in '74-75, albeit, with a comparatively weak supporting cast.) I certainly don't believe that they would have won titles in the early 70's, when the loaded Knicks won two, and the '71 and '72 Lakers, two of the greatest teams of all-time, won the other two. Even Barry on a good Warriors roster in that span, likely would not have won a ring. Hell, he did join a stacked Warrior team in the 72-73 season, and while they shocked the heavily-favored Bucks in the first round of the playoffs, they were completely destroyed by the Lakers in the WCF's.

And Dr. J didn't win any NBA titles, until the arrival of Moses. And, as we all know, it was Moses who carried that team. In fact, Erving couldn't win a title in the '80 Finals, even when Kareem missed a game six in Philadelphia. And his favored '77 Sixers blew a 2-0 series lead, and lost the last four straight games to Walton's Blazers.

Still, there was no question that Erving was among the very best players in his NBA career. And he deserved his '81 MVP while leading the Sixers to the best record in the league (tied with Bird's Celtics at 62-20.) But, as was the case for his entire NBA career, he lost a chance at a title when his Sixers lost the last three games of the '81 ECF's to the Celtics, and by the unbelievable margins of 2, 2, and 1 point. And had they beaten Boston in that series, they likely would have romped in the Finals against Moses' 40-42 Rockets.

Overall, and including his ABA career, and I have the Doctor at anywhere between 8-15 on an all-time list.

[Dr.J4ever]

If you combine Dr. J's ABA and NBA careers, he certainly has a strong case for a Top-10 all-time career.

And like MANY players, he hit his peak early in his career. Still, we will never know exactly how great a full NBA career would have turned out. The problem with his ABA career, is that it came in a league that was devoid of top-level talent. For all those that argue the NBA-ABA exhibition games as some kind of gauge, the reality was, by the early 70's, most all of the best players that the ABA had had, were in the NBA.

And it is no coincidence that the best players that played in both leagues, usually put up considerably better numbers in their ABA careers, particularly in terms of shooting efficiencies. Players like Barry, Hawkins, and Cunningham shot well above their normal NBA FG%'s.

Still, I would assume that a peak Erving would have put up greater numbers than what he eventually posted in his NBA career. But the other question would have been, would Erving, Barry, and Gilmore have won more NBA championships, had their careers been entirely played in the NBA? IMHO, they probably have only had a small three year window, from '73-74 thru the last year of the ABA, '75-76 (of course, Barry DID win a ring in '74-75, albeit, with a comparatively weak supporting cast.) I certainly don't believe that they would have won titles in the early 70's, when the loaded Knicks won two, and the '71 and '72 Lakers, two of the greatest teams of all-time, won the other two. Even Barry on a good Warriors roster in that span, likely would not have won a ring. Hell, he did join a stacked Warrior team in the 72-73 season, and while they shocked the heavily-favored Bucks in the first round of the playoffs, they were completely destroyed by the Lakers in the WCF's.

And Dr. J didn't win any NBA titles, until the arrival of Moses. And, as we all know, it was Moses who carried that team. In fact, Erving couldn't win a title in the '80 Finals, even when Kareem missed a game six in Philadelphia. And his favored '77 Sixers blew a 2-0 series lead, and lost the last four straight games to Walton's Blazers.

Still, there was no question that Erving was among the very best players in his NBA career. And he deserved his '81 MVP while leading the Sixers to the best record in the league (tied with Bird's Celtics at 62-20.) But, as was the case for his entire NBA career, he lost a chance at a title when his Sixers lost the last three games of the '81 ECF's to the Celtics, and by the unbelievable margins of 2, 2, and 1 point. And had they beaten Boston in that series, they likely would have romped in the Finals against Moses' 40-42 Rockets.

Overall, and including his ABA career, and I have the Doctor at anywhere between 8-15 on an all-time list.
The fact is the new MERGED NBA became a better league than either pre merged NBA or ABA. The ABA completely distinguished itself with it's share of All Stars, individual stats, division winners, and the team Doc beat with the Nets in the last ABA Finals, the Nuggets, had almost the best record in the newly merged NBA's first season.

You mention the 3 year window. That window were Doc's best years. His Nets team would have done a lot of damage in the NBA, and it's not just me saying this.

[Dr.J4ever]

The fact is the new MERGED NBA became a better league than either pre merged NBA or ABA. The ABA completely distinguished itself with it's share of All Stars, individual stats, division winners, and the team Doc beat with the Nets in the last ABA Finals, the Nuggets, had almost the best record in the newly merged NBA's first season.

You mention the 3 year window. That window were Doc's best years. His Nets team would have done a lot of damage in the NBA, and it's not just me saying this.
Regarding Moses. Yes Moses was the no. 1 option in the half court set, but Doc was clearly the best overall player of that Title team. He made that team work. Moses joined Doc's team, and Doc accommodated Moses in with his all around play. When Doc's game started to slow after that season, so did the Sixer's elite status.
I have a question. The early 80's Lakers also had KAJ as their number 1 option in the half court. Magic won games dumping the ball to Kaj for years during critical half court situations, but Magic was the better all around player, and gets full credit. Bird had that great front line. Why does Doc get half credit, just because he had Moses?

The fact is the early 80s was the decade of the big man, and they dominated. No non-center won the MVP til Doc won it in 1981 since the Big O. Proof that centers played a central role for title teams indeed.

Time to give doc his just due with that 83 team.

[LAZERUSS]

The fact is the new MERGED NBA became a better league than either pre merged NBA or ABA. The ABA completely distinguished itself with it's share of All Stars, individual stats, division winners, and the team Doc beat with the Nets in the last ABA Finals, the Nuggets, had almost the best record in the newly merged NBA's first season.

You mention the 3 year window. That window were Doc's best years. His Nets team would have done a lot of damage in the NBA, and it's not just me saying this.

The "Merged" league was basically taking FOUR ABA teams, and all of the remaining ABA talent, and adding it to the NBA. Again, most all of the best players in the history of the ABA, were back in the NBA by the early 70's. The only players who were not were Dr. J, Gilmore, David Thompson, Dan Issel, and George Gervin (who, like Moses, didn't hit his peak until his NBA years.)

The reality was, the NBA had lost a TON of talent to age and retirement by the mid-70's. Players like Bellamy, Thurmond, West, Oscar, Reed, and Wilt. And without West, Oscar, Reed, and Chamberlain, great teams like the early 70's Bucks, Knicks, and Lakers, were no longer super teams.

But I will agree with you that Dr. J's Nets might have won a title from '74 thru '76. The NBA had taken a nose-dive in that period, and in fact, even with the merger, the league was mired in a slump, until the arrival of Magic and Bird.

[Dr.J4ever]

Bob was injured and never got back to his Braves/Clippers level.

And Doc...he isn't one who would start attacking and shoot worse. When he played passive he was left a lot of pullup jumpers and last minute shots that he didn't have to take when he was just coming right at you.

ABA Doc...and attacking NBA Doc...he didn't let the offense really even get set up. He would come down the court and go straight to the basket and get it done. Shooting less but having more of those shots be jumpers when he wasn't really a shooter is one reason his shooting didn't go up that much.

Even when he was old and I thought he was overrated...I didn't know much about prime Doc...just that an old guy who didn't score much was the most respected person in the league...even then...he could go to the basket on anyone and score with the best of them. But he would just play his role and score a couple times on jumpers early...chill and not be noticed for like 20 minutes...score 4 times in a row in transition in the 3rd...then not do shit in the 4th till 30 seconds were left then he might attack a little.

He was old but even then he clearly could have gone in. This is the Doctor J I knew:

http://youtu.be/P1C7FSrGKWw?t=3m36s


Last game of his career his last two baskets he drives into traffic and finishes with the left hand then comes down and wets a 3 and retires.

He always seemed on the verge of just taking over and scoring 40...but he wouldn't. He would score in bursts and then just go invisible.

Unselfish to a fault really. EVen when he was scoring...he wasn't just trying to kill you. 77 finals Doc...should have been every day Doc. He could have done it at will almost his entire career.
Thank you for writing this thread. Whenever doc's name is mentioned, the heart beats a little faster. The memories, perhaps. My monicker, "justice for the ABA" is truly apt for this thread. I never saw the ABA doc, but having done my research today, it's high time ABA numbers are finally combined with NBA numbers.

The ABA made the newly merged NBA a better league in almost every aspect. The ABA's legacy is intact, and only pride, old grudges, legalities, and money is getting in the way.

I predict it will happen soon, and Doc's accomplishments and his true legend unseen in the NBA, and other ABA stars who never made it to the NBA will see the light of day.

[LAZERUSS]

Regarding Moses. Yes Moses was the no. 1 option in the half court set, but Doc was clearly the best overall player of that Title team. He made that team work. Moses joined Doc's team, and Doc accommodated Moses in with his all around play. When Doc's game started to slow after that season, so did the Sixer's elite status.
I have a question. The early 80's Lakers also had KAJ as their number 1 option in the half court. Magic won games dumping the ball to Kaj for years during critical half court situations, but Magic was the better all around player, and gets full credit. Bird had that great front line. Why does Doc get half credit, just because he had Moses?

The fact is the early 80s was the decade of the big man, and they dominated. No non-center won the MVP til Doc won it in 1981 since the Big O. Proof that centers played a central role for title teams indeed.

Time to give doc his just due with that 83 team.

Moses was just so dominant, though. Even his defense is often under-rated. And he was overwhelming in both scoring, and rebounding. My god, they slaughtered the league on the glass in '83. Kareem, on the other hand, had his last quailty all-around season in '81, and after that, he couldn't rebound, or defend, to save his life. Clearly, it was Magic who made the Lakers go.

[LAZERUSS]

And Chamberlain gets ripped by the "Wilt-bashers" no matter what he did. I have read the same posters who claimed he was a "selfish stats-padder" slam him for not leading his title teams in scoring (in the post-season anyway.)

And Bill Simmons, a known "Wilt-hater", has gone out of his way to disparage Chamberlain's career with complete nonsense. He labeled Wilt as "selfish" when Chamberlain went on to lead the league in assists, but somehow he forgot to mention the fact that Wilt also led that team to the best record in the league (and by a country mile, too.)

[Dr.J4ever]

The "Merged" league was basically taking FOUR ABA teams, and all of the remaining ABA talent, and adding it to the NBA. Again, most all of the best players in the history of the ABA, were back in the NBA by the early 70's. The only players who were not were Dr. J, Gilmore, David Thompson, Dan Issel, and George Gervin (who, like Moses, didn't hit his peak until his NBA years.)

The reality was, the NBA had lost a TON of talent to age and retirement by the mid-70's. Players like Bellamy, Thurmond, West, Oscar, Reed, and Wilt. And without West, Oscar, Reed, and Chamberlain, great teams like the early 70's Bucks, Knicks, and Lakers, were no longer super teams.

But I will agree with you that Dr. J's Nets might have won a title from '74 thru '76. The NBA had taken a nose-dive in that period, and in fact, even with the merger, the league was mired in a slump, until the arrival of Magic and Bird.
I completely agree with your last paragraph. I tell you, Magic and Bird are slightly overrated because of business reasons. The NBA saw an opportunity with the old Laker/Celtic rivalry and a white knight(literally) in Bird battling a pass first player in Magic. A complete opposite from the pre-Magic/Bird era that was perceived as too black by many Americans and too "ghetto".

The NBA hyped up this rivalry, and Doc and his other ABA exploits, which didn't have video anyway, became slowly forgotten. If Doc's peak happened in the 80s when the NBA was starting to become interesting again, Doc would be perceived completely differently.

[LAZERUSS]

I completely agree with your last paragraph. I tell you, Magic and Bird are slightly overrated because of business reasons. The NBA saw an opportunity with the old Laker/Celtic rivalry and a white knight(literally) in Bird battling a pass first player in Magic. A complete opposite from the pre-Magic/Bird era that was perceived as too black by many Americans and too "ghetto".

The NBA hyped up this rivalry, and Doc and his other ABA exploits, which didn't have video anyway, became slowly forgotten. If Doc's peak happened in the 80s when the NBA was starting to become interesting again, Doc would be perceived completely differently.

The ABA made some solid contributions to NBA basketball. The biggest, of course, being the 3pt shot. But beyond that, the game became more "above-the-rim", and spectacular (not necessarily better, though.)

And Dr. J was clearly ahead of his time. The ESPN generation believes that MJ took the game to another level, but the fact was, Erving was playing like Jordan, long before Michael was.

Magic and Bird rejuvenated a declining sport, though. I still remember the '72 WCF's and Finals being broadcast live on TV. And yet, by the late 70's (and I believe even in Magic's rookie season), the night games were tape-delayed.

And I know I will catch some flak for this, but I really believe that some of that decline was Kareem's fault. When KAJ came into the league he was seen as the next GOAT. And, in fact, in his first three seasons he was well on his way to establishing himself as THE GOAT. But, beginning with his '72 post-season, his career slowly declined each year. He seemed to lose motivation, and seldom put up the huge games that he had early in his career. In fact, it got so bad, that even the movie "Airplane" took a shot at his "laziness."

[Dr.J4ever]

The "Merged" league was basically taking FOUR ABA teams, and all of the remaining ABA talent, and adding it to the NBA. Again, most all of the best players in the history of the ABA, were back in the NBA by the early 70's. The only players who were not were Dr. J, Gilmore, David Thompson, Dan Issel, and George Gervin (who, like Moses, didn't hit his peak until his NBA years.)

The reality was, the NBA had lost a TON of talent to age and retirement by the mid-70's. Players like Bellamy, Thurmond, West, Oscar, Reed, and Wilt. And without West, Oscar, Reed, and Chamberlain, great teams like the early 70's Bucks, Knicks, and Lakers, were no longer super teams.

But I will agree with you that Dr. J's Nets might have won a title from '74 thru '76. The NBA had taken a nose-dive in that period, and in fact, even with the merger, the league was mired in a slump, until the arrival of Magic and Bird.
From Wikipedia, "the nba-aba rivalry"

"Immediate results of the ABA

[Dr.J4ever]

[QUOTE=Dr.J4ever]From Wikipedia, "the nba-aba rivalry"

"Immediate results of the ABA

[LAZERUSS]

[QUOTE=Dr.J4ever]From Wikipedia, "the nba-aba rivalry"

"Immediate results of the ABA

[Dr.J4ever]

Again, both Gervin and Moses' careers were in their infancy in their ABA seasons. I don't really count either as ABA 'stars." And out of the rest of those "all-stars", really only Gilmore, Thompson, Issel, and of course Dr. J, were truly impact stars. The bulk of the rest of the ABA players that joined the NBA, were the average, to below-average, players who would have battled the same types from the NBA, for the same positions.

Again, the ABA was on it's last legs by it's last season. Franchises were folding, and as I have mentioned several times, their best players were already playing in the NBA. You have to realize that the '76 ABA started out with only nine teams, and early on, it had already dwindled to seven. So, when the merger added FOUR teams, that meant that there were only about 36 other players that would have been fighting for NBA roster positions. And the bulk of those were below average players.
Yes, the ABA was on it's last legs FINANCIALLY. No doubt.Still, what Wiki says stands.. Not only that, here's more required reading on this weekend:lol

"Legacy

Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame member Julius Erving: "In my mind, the NBA has just become a bigger version of the ABA. They play the style of game that we did. They sell their stars like we did. The only difference is that they have more resources and can do it on a much grander scale than we in the ABA ever could."[85]

Denver Nuggets, San Antonio Spurs and Philadelphia 76ers head coach Doug Moe: "One of the biggest disappointments in my life was going into the NBA after the merger. The NBA was a rinky-dink league - listen, I'm very serious about this. The league was run like garbage. There was no camaraderie; a lot of the NBA guys were aloof and thought they were too good to practice or play hard. The NBA All-Star Games were nothing - guys didn't even want to play in them and the fans could [sic] care less about the games. It wasn't until the 1980s, when David Stern became commissioner, that the NBA figured out what the hell they were doing, and what they did was a lot of stuff we had in the ABA - from the 3-point shot to All-Star weekend to the show biz stuff. Now the NBA is like the old ABA. Guys play hard, they show their enthusiasm and there is a closeness in the league. Hell, the ABA might have lost the battle, but we won the war. The NBA now plays our kind of basketball."[86]

Sportswriter Bob Ryan: "When writers such as Jim O'Brien and Peter Vescey wrote that the two leagues were very close, that some ABA teams were among the top five of all pro basketball teams, I thought they had no objectivity and that they were too close to the teams they were writing about to really understand pro basketball. Then came the merger, and Denver and San Antonio won division titles. What could I say? Guys like Jim O'Brien were right."[90]

[LAZERUSS]

Yes, the ABA was on it's last legs FINANCIALLY. No doubt.Still, what Wiki says stands.. Not only that, here's more required reading on this weekend:lol

"Legacy

Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame member Julius Erving: "In my mind, the NBA has just become a bigger version of the ABA. They play the style of game that we did. They sell their stars like we did. The only difference is that they have more resources and can do it on a much grander scale than we in the ABA ever could."[85]

Denver Nuggets, San Antonio Spurs and Philadelphia 76ers head coach Doug Moe: "One of the biggest disappointments in my life was going into the NBA after the merger. The NBA was a rinky-dink league - listen, I'm very serious about this. The league was run like garbage. There was no camaraderie; a lot of the NBA guys were aloof and thought they were too good to practice or play hard. The NBA All-Star Games were nothing - guys didn't even want to play in them and the fans could [sic] care less about the games. It wasn't until the 1980s, when David Stern became commissioner, that the NBA figured out what the hell they were doing, and what they did was a lot of stuff we had in the ABA - from the 3-point shot to All-Star weekend to the show biz stuff. Now the NBA is like the old ABA. Guys play hard, they show their enthusiasm and there is a closeness in the league. Hell, the ABA might have lost the battle, but we won the war. The NBA now plays our kind of basketball."[86]

Sportswriter Bob Ryan: "When writers such as Jim O'Brien and Peter Vescey wrote that the two leagues were very close, that some ABA teams were among the top five of all pro basketball teams, I thought they had no objectivity and that they were too close to the teams they were writing about to really understand pro basketball. Then came the merger, and Denver and San Antonio won division titles. What could I say? Guys like Jim O'Brien were right."[90]

I agree with at least some of the above. The ABA was a more "entertaining" league, and the NBA did go on to adopt some of that culture.

But my main point was that the overwhelming number of the best players in the world were still playing in the NBA before that merger. And it is reflected in the fact that those players that played in both leagues, generally played considerably better in the ABA...and particularly in terms of efficiency. Gilmore had been a dominating center in the ABA. He was "just" among the best in his NBA career (albeit, HIS efficiency shot thru the roof in his NBA career.)

Obviously the ABA added "star power" to the NBA. But, the reality was, had their never been an ABA, the best players that had played in the ABA, most certainly would have been playing in the NBA. The real question was, would they have put up those dominant seasons that they had in the ABA, in the NBA? And again, I don't count Gervin or Moses, since both came into their primes in their NBA careers.

[Dr.J4ever]

I agree with at least some of the above. The ABA was a more "entertaining" league, and the NBA did go on to adopt some of that culture.

But my main point was that the overwhelming number of the best players in the world were still playing in the NBA before that merger. And it is reflected in the fact that those players that played in both leagues, generally played considerably better in the ABA...and particularly in terms of efficiency. Gilmore had been a dominating center in the ABA. He was "just" among the best in his NBA career (albeit, HIS efficiency shot thru the roof in his NBA career.)

Obviously the ABA added "star power" to the NBA. But, the reality was, had their never been an ABA, the best players that had played in the ABA, most certainly would have been playing in the NBA. The real question was, would they have put up those dominant seasons that they had in the ABA, in the NBA? And again, I don't count Gervin or Moses, since both came into their primes in their NBA careers.
I just can't agree with "overwhelming number"..What I quoted in Wiki completely contradicts that. You yourself said that the "3 year window" where ABA title teams could have beaten NBA title teams is really a smoking gun to prove that BY THE TIME BOTH LEAGUES WERE MERGED, there was rough parity between both leagues.

Coincidentally, Doc's best years took place during that 3 year window. Also, the higher numbers put up by ABA stars can just be attributed to style of play and faster paced action in the ABA.

[Dr.J4ever]

The ABA made some solid contributions to NBA basketball. The biggest, of course, being the 3pt shot. But beyond that, the game became more "above-the-rim", and spectacular (not necessarily better, though.)

And Dr. J was clearly ahead of his time. The ESPN generation believes that MJ took the game to another level, but the fact was, Erving was playing like Jordan, long before Michael was.

Magic and Bird rejuvenated a declining sport, though. I still remember the '72 WCF's and Finals being broadcast live on TV. And yet, by the late 70's (and I believe even in Magic's rookie season), the night games were tape-delayed.

And I know I will catch some flak for this, but I really believe that some of that decline was Kareem's fault. When KAJ came into the league he was seen as the next GOAT. And, in fact, in his first three seasons he was well on his way to establishing himself as THE GOAT. But, beginning with his '72 post-season, his career slowly declined each year. He seemed to lose motivation, and seldom put up the huge games that he had early in his career. In fact, it got so bad, that even the movie "Airplane" took a shot at his "laziness."
Maybe so. David Stern did mention about the perceived notion at the time that the NBA was "too black" , or "ghetto", or problems with drugs. Bird, a literal "white knight", and Magic who played with enthusiasm and effort saved the day. A lot of hype placed on this rivalry for obvious business reasons.

[IncarceratedBob]

Cant believe people mention Bosh

He's garbage and shouldn't be remembered throughout history

[elementally morale]

I nominate Joe Dumars and Toni Kukoc.

[Gotterdammerung]

I kinda disagree with your assessment of Dr J. Other than his first season in the NBA, he only really gave up about 1-2 shots compared to his ABA years. That's perfectly reasonable. You have to take into account that he's playing much less minutes in the NBA.

Also, he's shooting less but his efficiency doesn't improve. Plus all his stats dropped when he got to the NBA. That indicates that he does fell off, if only by a little bit.

Julius Erving had tendinitis in both knees once he got to the NBA in 1976, and didn't really recover until 1979.

[Miller for 3]

Wade and Bosh. Two top 5 players who could have 3 rings now (instead only have .15) but their stats and ring count is low because they play with a huge ballhog that only beat one 50 win team in the PS before joining the super stacked Heat

Kobe - Let Shaq pretend to be the alpha dog, when in truth it was Kobe. We saw how much Kobe carried him, as Shaq won only 1 asterick rings despite playing with Penny, 3D, Wade, Payton, Malone, Walker, Nash, STAT, Marion, Lebron, Jamison, Williams, Rondo, KG, Pierce, and Garnett.

Then he put his 40ppg scoring to rest and let Pau/Odom feel important by letting them score a few baskets each game while he carried them to two ships

Durant- Could average 45-50ppg but lets Ibaka and Chuckbrook chuck up terrible shots each game just so his beloved idiot coach won't get fired. And of course, he plays with the worst starter in the league, Perkins (worth -10 wins alone)

[La Frescobaldi]

Sam Jones & John Havlicek live submerged by Bill Russell mythology which is totally unfair. Havlicek got a lot more credit for his work in the '70s but Sam is totally forgot. That guy was the real deal, the truest superstar level player who gave all that up to win.

Another guy who gets criminally underrated is Bill Walton. Lot of this thread talking about the late '70s being a lower level quality NBA league it just isn't true.
Sure the league got weakened bad by a bunch of bench-level-at-best players from the ABA showing up, such as whole entire doormat teams called Nets and Pacers (we are talking start-up Grizzlies/Raptors level), and the media PR was bad at that time too. But the NBA was still very high level in the late '70s, and Walton is one huge reason why that fact is true. Always a team player, who could completely take over games. Look how he destroyed Kareem in his MVP level days and later on again (admittedly aged but so was Walton, with his legs) with great ease in '86 Finals.

Somebody else talked about Pippen and yes that is a fact right there. Pip was incredible. Lots of guys at his level of talent would have gave Michael Jordan a swirly flush in the locker room for pulling the stuff he did but Pippen did the opposite, kept the team mentality smooth and the wins streaming in.

[97 bulls]

I feel Pippen gets slighted. Give him ten years of having the best team built around his skillset and hed would've been a perennial MVP and DPOY candidate.

That 94 Bulls team wouldve won the championship had they aquired a decent SG to replace Jordan.

[ImKobe]

Kobe from 2000-2002