The difference between LeBron and Jordan..straight to the facts and past the Nikecoms

[TonyMontana]

Here is the difference between LeBron and Jordan.

When Jordans Bulls lack interior defenders and rebounders, they become pretenders(As evidenced by Shaq/Horace shitting on them in 1995 when they had no great interior defenders/rebounders).

When LeBrons Heat lack interior defenders and rebounders, LeBron gets his ass in the post and starts getting 10+ boards and guarding David Wests. Because of LeBrons superior physical abilities he is more versatile and able to effect the game in more ways.

As it stands now LeBron is the only perimeter superstar in NBA History to win with a frontcourt that gets abused on a nightyly basis.

Don't even get me started on who is more valuable to their teams. :oldlol:

1993 Bulls with Jordan: 57-25
1994 Bulls w/o Jordan: 55-27

2010 Cavs with LeBron: 61-21
2011 Cavs w/o LeBron: 19- 63
:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

Jordan only had to be his teams go to scorer....LeBron has to be his teams go to scorer ON TOP of main playmaker/ball handler, top rebounder, top perimeter defender, top post defender. You name it and LeBron is the best on the Heat at it. And hes still racking up rings. :oldlol:

http://oi40.tinypic.com/2yoa150.jpg

[FiveRings]

Did not read.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/z%20Funny%20NBA%20Photos/Others%20Masterpiece/0%20queen%20lebron%20james/jordan-lebron-airball-miss.gif

[pauk]

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8hwwidcSs1r3f9ymo1_250.gif

[TheReal Kendall]

http://www.gifsforum.com/images/gif/did%20not%20read/grand/did-not-read-eccbc87e4b5ce2fe28308fd9f2a7baf3-2350.gif

[SilkkTheShocker]

In before excuses for Bosh's terrible postseason performance :oldlol:

[fpliii]

I'm not down with the W/L analysis or accolade comparisons, but you raise a good point about differences in responsibilities.

[TonyMontana]

I'm not down with the W/L analysis or accolade comparisons, but you raise a good point about differences in responsibilities.

The W/L shouldn't be looked at exclusively, but it is certainly supporting evidence.

Cleveland definitely started tanking midway through the year, but they did that because they were so bad anyway. Maybe not 19-63 bad, but it was a given without LeBron this team was irrelevant so they looked at the best interests of the franchise. People forget that going into this year Clevelands mindset was to show that they could play without LeBron and they were trying hard. That didn't last long.

Point being, Michaels Bulls were an elite NBA team with or without Michael. The 90s was an era where most teams only had one MVP caliber player, yet the Bulls had two of them(along with the best coach and rebounder in NBA History).

Even the current Heat are more similar to LeBrons Cavs than Michaels Bulls. This team is a long way from the "superteam" that formed in 2010. Wade was awful in these playoffs and Bosh makes 11 PPG 48% shooting centers look like Shaq. LeBron has just as many responsibilities as he did on Cleveland.

[Jameerthefear]

mods delete thread plz

[SilkkTheShocker]

"Miami Cavaliers" - Reggie Miller

[Le Shaqtus]

Didn't read.

Jordan GOAT.

:banana:

[fpliii]

The W/L shouldn't be looked at exclusively, but it is certainly supporting evidence.

Cleveland definitely started tanking midway through the year, but they did that because they were so bad anyway. Maybe not 19-63 bad, but it was a given without LeBron this team was irrelevant so they looked at the best interests of the franchise. People forget that going into this year Clevelands mindset was to show that they could play without LeBron and they were trying hard. That didn't last long.

Point being, Michaels Bulls were an elite NBA team with or without Michael. The 90s was an era where most teams only had one MVP caliber player, yet the Bulls had two of them(along with the best coach and rebounder in NBA History).

Even the current Heat are more similar to LeBrons Cavs than Michaels Bulls. This team is a long way from the "superteam" that formed in 2010. Wade was awful in these playoffs and Bosh makes 11 PPG 48% shooting centers look like Shaq. LeBron has just as many responsibilities as he did on Cleveland.

I followed you until the bolded. I haven't looked at it too closely, but it seems to be a bit much. Bosh is a bitch and was overrated from the start (he was without a doubt never a superstar), but Wade's been hurt the last two years. When Wade was healthy, this team won twenty something games in a row, which is absolutely insane. I think they definitely qualify as a superteam, at least on the same level as the first-threepeat Bulls. The second threepeat team was very likely deeper though.

[sportjames23]

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/237/621/c8a.gif

[CelticBaller]

http://www.interbasket.net/news/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/lebron_mj.jpg

[FiveRings]

"Miami Cavaliers" - Reggie Miller
Which team was more stacked than the Heat with their 3 starting All Stars this past season in your opinion? The Spurs with an old Duncan, injured Parker, and old Manu? The Thunder with Durant and no Westbrook or Harden? The Pacers lol?

[TonyMontana]

I followed you until the bolded. I haven't looked at it too closely, but it seems to be a bit much. Bosh is a bitch and was overrated from the start (he was without a doubt never a superstar), but Wade's been hurt the last two years. When Wade was healthy, this team won twenty something games in a row, which is absolutely insane. I think they definitely qualify as a superteam, at least on the same level as the first-threepeat Bulls. The second threepeat team was very likely deeper though.

But that is exactly the point. This isn't 2006 Wade, 2009 Wade, or even 2011 Wade. Despite Wades poor play, the Heat have won multiple championships....Because LeBron is playing like the player he has always been able to... One of the 5 greatest players in basketball history.

The only thing super about the Heat is LeBrons play. Their bigmen are probably among the worst of any champion in NBA History. Chris Bosh is a bigger name than Horace Grant, but you'd be a fool to take him over him. Solid interior defense and great rebounding. He played inside...Bosh plays 19 feet from the hoop.

Their 2nd option in the playoffs scored 14 PPG on 49% TS...a 6'3 guard with no range and that couldn't get to the line.... and they still win with these glaring deficiencies.

When you have a player like LeBron, sometimes you can get by regardless. After carrying this team to two rings his legendary dominance should be acknowledged by all NBA fans.

[poido123]

This is the reason why alot of people wanted this guy banned.

Him and 9empire starting up trolling threads, hopefully mods finally sort this out

[Dionysus]

mods delete thread plz

**** your mods wanker! Handle the facts, soak your pathetic mind in them and have a jolly good day you perpetulant bloke.

[fpliii]

But that is exactly the point. This isn't 2006 Wade, 2009 Wade, or even 2011 Wade. Despite Wades poor play, the Heat have won multiple championships....Because LeBron is playing like the player he has always been able to... One of the 5 greatest players in basketball history.

The only thing super about the Heat is LeBrons play. Their bigmen are probably among the worst of any champion in NBA History. Chris Bosh is a bigger name than Horace Grant, but you'd be a fool to take him over him. Solid interior defense and great rebounding. He played inside...Bosh plays 19 feet from the hoop.

Their 2nd option in the playoffs scored 14 PPG on 49% TS...a 6'3 guard with no range and that couldn't get to the line.... and they still win with these glaring deficiencies.

When you have a player like LeBron, sometimes you can get by regardless. After carrying this team to two rings his credit should be acknowledged by all NBA fans.

The one thing about Bosh is he's automatic from his spots (like literally 50%+ from long mid-range), so you have to respect his shots. He doesn't give you anything else really and is a huge liability vs some of the bigger centers, but it's nice to have. He's also improved as a help defender. Don't get me wrong, he was garbage in the playoffs (particularly vs Indy and SA), but I think he's a good player.

I agree during the playoffs they didn't play to their superteam potential. But don't you agree that during the streak, they would qualify as a superteam under any definition? I think they'll meet that if they can manage Wade's minutes (and he got the same OssaTron procedure done that he did before 08-09), and get anything out of Oden.

[TonyMontana]

This is the reason why alot of people wanted this guy banned.

Him and 9empire starting up trolling threads, hopefully mods finally sort this out

The only ones trolling are the guys that post random gifs. I could argue you are trolling since you posted nothing relating to the topic at hand.

All of my posts are based on substance. Just because you disagree/can't handle it doesn't mean its "trolling"

[Young X]

Just came in here to say that the Bulls from '85-'98 went from winning 6 titles, five 60 win seasons with Jordan, to losing 60% of their games without Jordan in the lineup and in '97 won with Jordan averaging the same amount of rebounds as Rodman while leading them in points, assists, steals and blocks in the playoffs. :pimp:

[KG215]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=286574

[fpliii]

Just came in here to say that the Bulls from '85-'98 went from winning 6 titles, five 60 win seasons to losing 60% of their games without Jordan in the lineup and in '97 won with Jordan averaging the same rebounds as Rodman while leading them in points, assists, steals and blocks in the playoffs. :pimp:

In 1.5x the minutes as Rodman. See I really like Jordan, and he's one of two legit GOAT candidates, but some of you guys take this too far. You can't force everyone to put him multiple levels above all other players ever, and it's fine if people don't. He's the GOAT non-big, and that's enough.

I'm sure TonyMontana does have an agenda here, but he's raised a valid point. His posting history/reputation hurts his credibility in this thread in the eyes of most, but a lot of what he's said is spot on.

[poido123]

**** your mods wanker! Handle the facts, soak your pathetic mind in them and have a jolly good day you perpetulant bloke.

Here's a worthless poster if I've ever seen one.

I haven't seen you post in a while, must of been banned.

[Trollsmasher]

Looks like some posters can't handle the truth...

'93 Jordan was at 5,5 RAPM. He really did not add that much to that team.

[Trentknicks]

Interesting point you make about Jordan's Bulls getting dominated by the Shaq/Grant frontcourt.

If the Heat took 7 games to beat a West/Hibbert front court, how do you think they'd go against a trio of Penny/Grant/Shaq :roll:

dickhead

[TonyMontana]

The one thing about Bosh is he's automatic from his spots (like literally 50%+ from long mid-range), so you have to respect his shots. He doesn't give you anything else really and is a huge liability vs some of the bigger centers, but it's nice to have. He's also improved as a help defender. Don't get me wrong, he was garbage in the playoffs (particularly vs Indy and SA), but I think he's a good player.

I agree during the playoffs they didn't play to their superteam potential. But don't you agree that during the streak, they would qualify as a superteam under any definition? I think they'll meet that if they can manage Wade's minutes (and he got the same OssaTron procedure done that he did before 08-09), and get anything out of Oden.

Yeah Bosh is probably one of the best long two point shooters in the league. That is still an overrated skill. His entire game is going to be based on whether he is making those long two pointers(a bad shot to begin with). Whne your an elite defense/rebounder you don't need to worry about your shots going in. Just being on the court and running around doing what you do is going to be an extremely instrumental tool to the teams success.

And I do think Bosh is a great defender vs the pick and roll. Hes really quick on his feet for a 6'11 guy. Thats probably my favorite thing about his game.

Wade got most of the headlines after Game 4 of the Finals, but to me Bosh was the MVP of that game. He was boxing out like a boss, blocking/altering tons of shots, and playing inside all game. He had 20 points, 13 rebounds, 2 blocks on 8-14 shooting. It was a great game. His problem is he hardly ever plays like that.

I'm not too concerned with the regular season. LeBron alone guarantees 50+ regular season wins, and against these bottom feeding teams the Heat can get out on the run and just rape teams. This is when a guy like Wade flourishes. When he can just get in the open court. In the halfcourt(aka the playoffs) his deteriorated skills get greatly exposed. He doesn't provide spacing, and when he doesn't get to the line either he is a liability offensively.

[Dionysus]

Here's a worthless poster if I've ever seen one.

I haven't seen you post in a while, must of been banned.

Jeff or whoever banned me for some racial and "trolling" bullshit claim. Makes 6th time I was banned for something they view as trolling. Mods here are garbage.

[PickernRoller]

Jeff or whoever banned me for some racial and "trolling" bullshit claim. Makes 6th time I was banned for something they view as trolling. Mods here are garbage.

6th time and you still coming back?

http://static4.fjcdn.com/comments/Oh+lawd+what+_7d7bde0415aa2a8ce63f0a717f7d8d24.jpg

[Young X]

In 1.5x the minutes as Rodman.The minutes aren't the point, I'm not trying to compare their rebounding abilities. :oldlol: The fact is, Rodman got injured and Jordan helped the Bulls out on the boards just as much as he did which goes against his point. Dude said Jordan only had to be his teams scorer and they were pretenders without rebounding, and I showed that the Bulls still won with Jordan damn near leading his team in every category in the playoffs.

[fpliii]

Yeah Bosh is probably one of the best long two point shooters in the league. That is still an overrated skill. His entire game is going to be based on whether he is making those long two pointers(a bad shot to begin with). Whne your an elite defense/rebounder you don't need to worry about your shots going in. Just being on the court and running around doing what you do is going to be an extremely instrumental tool to the teams success.

And I do think Bosh is a great defender vs the pick and roll. Hes really quick on his feet for a 6'11 guy. Thats probably my favorite thing about his game.

Wade got most of the headlines after Game 4 of the Finals, but to me Bosh was the MVP of that game. He was boxing out like a boss, blocking/altering tons of shots, and playing inside all game. He had 20 points, 13 rebounds, 2 blocks on 8-14 shooting. It was a great game. His problem is he hardly ever plays like that.

I'm not too concerned with the regular season. LeBron alone guarantees 50+ regular season wins, and against these bottom feeding teams the Heat can get out on the run and just rape teams. This is when a guy like Wade flourishes. When he can just get in the open court. In the halfcourt(aka the playoffs) his deteriorated skills get greatly exposed. He doesn't provide spacing, and when he doesn't get to the line either he is a liability offensively.

1) The one problem is, you have to make difficult shots at some point. This is why a three-or-drive guy like Harden gets exposed against top playoff defenses (same with pick-and-rolls in general). It's sorta like game theory, you need to figure out what the opposition is gonna give you, they have to figure out what you think they're gonna give you, and so on. Defenses are fine conceding a low percentage shot, and that's why you need to take them and make them. Straight post-ups are incredibly inefficient in general, as are long-range two pointers. If you can beat the other team in those departments, they'll have to live with it. Look at the last two playoffs...LeBron won last year by dominating in the post, and this year by finally taking the long jumpers they gave him. The Spurs were afraid of him driving (so they had Leonard guide him into Duncan), and also blocked off the three-point shooters so he couldn't make long swing passes.

2) Because he's been hurt. Wade in his career has destroyed teams in the half court in the playoffs, and has always been a great slasher in tight space. I think if he's healthy, he gives you that boost.

[Eric Cartman]

Aw yes, this abomination of a thread is back.

[fpliii]

The minutes aren't the point, I'm not trying to compare their rebounding abilities. :oldlol: The fact is, Rodman got injured and Jordan helped the Bulls out on the boards just as much as he did which goes against his point. Dude said Jordan only had to be his teams scorer and they were pretenders without rebounding, and I showed that the Bulls still won with Jordan damn near leading his team in every category in the playoffs.

Against Atlanta early in the playoffs MJ was big, and picked up the slack. Same with Scottie in the Finals. They went against a bruising front-line in Miami in the ECF, and Rodman showed up. I think the OP was trying to convey a difference in player responsibility (though he obviously had an agenda too). Jordan when he finally had a team around him was asked to do what he did best: score first, and help get the best out of his teammates. LeBron is being asked to guard big post players, and rebound with seven footers.

Versatility and added responsibility != better by any means, but there is a difference. Different players have different roles.

[daily]

http://oi40.tinypic.com/2yoa150.jpg

Lebron James age 28, 10 seasons, 765 games
Michael Jordan age 28, 8 seasons, 589 games

http://i41.tinypic.com/6y0dut.jpg

[poido123]

:facepalm

[Johnny Jones]

Lebron James age 28, 10 seasons, 765 games
Michael Jordan age 28, 8 seasons, 589 games

http://i41.tinypic.com/6y0dut.jpg
:applause:

[CelticBaller]

Lebron James age 28, 10 seasons, 765 games
Michael Jordan age 28, 8 seasons, 589 games

http://i41.tinypic.com/6y0dut.jpg
:lol

[DaHeezy]

The real trolls of the thread are the ones posting "did not read" or insulting this thread. I think OP has very valid points and in no way did he pull some sort of argument out his ass. Isn't that the premise of Jordan stans is that they only post "facts"? Well Tony didn't post anything that wasn't true. Instead of the Jordaneers rationally debating they go on the defense and call this a troll thread. Typical move :facepalm

[Nash]

This is a good thread, backed with an OP who uses facts and is willing to take the discussion with people who disagree. Then we have the real trolls, or spammers, who come in here and act as if OP is the troll and ask for a perfectly good thread with good discussion material to be closed.

[Trollsmasher]

Lebron James age 28, 10 seasons, 765 games
Michael Jordan age 28, 8 seasons, 589 games

http://i41.tinypic.com/6y0dut.jpg
What is the purpose of this? It's not like LeBron is going to shorten his career by few years so MJ can catch up with him.

[Heavincent]

This is a good thread, backed with an OP who uses facts and is willing to take the discussion with people who disagree. Then we have the real trolls, or spammers, who come in here and act as if OP is the troll and ask for a perfectly good thread with good discussion material to be closed.

You're only a little bit less of a moron than the OP.

[Nash]

You're only a little bit less of a moron than the OP.
You're still at it, huh? Everything Lebron does is bad and so are the people who enjoy his game.

[TonyMontana]

Lebron James age 28, 10 seasons, 765 games
Mic hael Jordan age 28, 8 seasons, 589 games


So we should hold it against LeBron that he was good enough to dominate NBA players straight out of high school? :roll:

Out of all the prep to pros players, LeBron is the only one dominating immediately. From that first game vs the Sacramento Kings we could tell hes special.


The real trolls of the thread are the ones posting "did not read" or insulting this thread. I think OP has very valid points and in no way did he pull some sort of argument out his ass. Isn't that the premise of Jordan stans is that they only post "facts"? Well Tony didn't post anything that wasn't true. Instead of the Jordaneers rationally debating they go on the defense and call this a troll thread. Typical move :facepalm


This is a good thread, backed with an OP who uses facts and is willing to take the discussion with people who disagree. Then we have the real trolls, or spammers, who come in here and act as if OP is the troll and ask for a perfectly good thread with good discussion material to be closed.

:cheers:

Part of the reason they resort to personal attacks instead of counterarguments is because everything I say is based on facts and they simply have no other alternative.

I was disappointed by the threads deletion, but luckily someone else corrected that persons mistake. :cheers:

[Heavincent]

You're still at it, huh? Everything Lebron does is bad and so are the people who enjoy his game.

How am I anti-Lebron?

[sportjames23]

Difference between Lebron and Jordan?

2 < 6

Lebron = 2 for 4

Jordan = 6 for 6

[Dionysus]

Tony Montana owning this thread.:applause:

Get real people of this forum, LeBron James is simply a better player than Jordan ever was.

[TonyMontana]

Difference between Lebron and Jordan?

2 < 6

Lebron = 2 for 4

Jordan = 6 for 6

So according to you, Jordan losing in the first round is better than LeBron losing in the Finals because it doesn't go against his Finals record.

:oldlol:

When this is the logic going through my oppositions head I already know I won.

[Trollsmasher]

Tony Montana owning this thread.:applause:

Get real people of this forum, LeBron James is simply a better player than Jordan ever was.
Don't derail the thread:no:

[97 bulls]

Here is the difference between LeBron and Jordan.

When Jordans Bulls lack interior defenders and rebounders, they become pretenders(As evidenced by Shaq/Horace shitting on them in 1995 when they had no great interior defenders/rebounders).

When LeBrons Heat lack interior defenders and rebounders, LeBron gets his ass in the post and starts getting 10+ boards and guarding David Wests. Because of LeBrons superior physical abilities he is more versatile and able to effect the game in more ways.

As it stands now LeBron is the only perimeter superstar in NBA History to win with a frontcourt that gets abused on a nightyly basis.

Don't even get me started on who is more valuable to their teams. :oldlol:

1993 Bulls with Jordan: 57-25
1994 Bulls w/o Jordan: 55-27

2010 Cavs with LeBron: 61-21
2011 Cavs w/o LeBron: 19- 63
:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

Jordan only had to be his teams go to scorer....LeBron has to be his teams go to scorer ON TOP of main playmaker/ball handler, top rebounder, top perimeter defender, top post defender. You name it and LeBron is the best on the Heat at it. And hes still racking up rings. :oldlol:

http://oi40.tinypic.com/2yoa150.jpg
Very interesting. But youre not looking at this objectively.

Ill grant that James is more versatile than Jordan on the defensive side of the ball. However, Jordan is just as vsrsitle on offense. And there are many areas on offense where James game is raw. He post game sucks. Jordan is considered by many to be the best non big post player ever. James midrange jumper is suspect at best. Again, Jordan is arguably the best midrange shooter as well.

I also feel Jordan is a better team player than James. Both Bosh and Wade have been forced to suppress their talents for James to thrive. Jordan adjusted his game in an effort to allow his teammates to thrive.

And while its true James has accomplished more than James at the same age, Its also true Jordan has never been credited with his team failing like James in 2011. Jordan has also never had a championship as bad as James in 07. Jordan has never lost as a favorite as well.

I also see you neglected Jordan's 84 gold medal. As well as the Bronze medal our US team had to settle for in 04 due to James inability to be like Jordan. Why?

[poido123]

So according to you, Jordan losing in the first round is better than LeBron losing in the Finals because it doesn't go against his Finals record.

:oldlol:

When this is the logic going through my oppositions head I already know I won.


I think people are ready to let this go. Are you?

[Dionysus]

1993 Bulls with Jordan: 57-25
1994 Bulls w/o Jordan: 55-27

2010 Cavs with LeBron: 61-21
2011 Cavs w/o LeBron: 19- 63
:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:



Most telling stat ever.

LeBron has to do it all and is far more valuable than Jordan ever was.

Only thing MJ had to do (like Kobe) is shotjack and take all the glory, while Pippen gaurded the teams best opposing player (see finals vs Magic Johnson), Rodman and company played interior defense and rebounded for the team. I swear, without the Nike push and kids buying shoes, he wouldn't even be considered the Greatest.

We are currently watching the greatest in LeBron "King" James, can I get a witness!

[Dionysus]

Don't derail the thread:no:

How? By stating a realistic truth? Blow me wanker.

[97 bulls]

Most telling stat ever.

LeBron has to do it all and is far more valuable than Jordan ever was.

Only thing MJ had to do (like Kobe) is shotjack and take all the glory, while Pippen gaurded the teams best opposing player (see finals vs Magic Johnson), Rodman and company played interior defense and rebounded for the team. I swear, without the Nike push and kids buying shoes, he wouldn't even be considered the Greatest.

We are currently watching the greatest in LeBron "King" James, can I get a witness!
Then explain how the Heat can win 47 games in 10, then get James AND CHRIS BOSH and only improve to 58. The Bulls went from 55 wins in 94, got Jordan back along with Rodman and won 72 win

[jzek]

The difference is that Jordan is 6 for 6 in the finals. :bowdown:

[TonyMontana]

Very interesting. But youre not looking at this objectively.

Ill grant that James is more versatile than Jordan on the defensive side of the ball. However, Jordan is just as vsrsitle on offense. And there are many areas on offense where James game is raw. He post game sucks. Jordan is considered by many to be the best non big post player ever. James midrange jumper is suspect at best. Again, Jordan is arguably the best midrange shooter as well.

I also feel Jordan is a better team player than James. Both Bosh and Wade have been forced to suppress their talents for James to thrive. Jordan adjusted his game in an effort to allow his teammates to thrive.

And while its true James has accomplished more than James at the same age, Its also true Jordan has never been credited with his team failing like James in 2011. Jordan has also never had a championship as bad as James in 07. Jordan has never lost as a favorite as well.

I also see you neglected Jordan's 84 gold medal. As well as the Bronze medal our US team had to settle for in 04 due to James inability to be like Jordan. Why?

Scoring is the one area I will give to Jordan. He is the best scorer in NBA History at 30 PPG 50% shooting in the modern era. However versatality is overrated. It's all about production and I don't care how it comes, but as long as it comes. I'll take a dunk every play if I can get it.

When you compare Jordans scoring output(30 PPG on 50% shooting) to LeBrons (28 PPG on 49% shooting) they are closer than one would think. LeBrons size advantage(which translates to better rebounding and defensive ability) and the ability to make the game easier for guys more than makes up for Jordans 2 PPG and 1% shooting advantage.

Jordan is definitely not a better team player than LeBron. When he retired(the first time) BJ Armstrong, Horace Grant, and Scottie Pippen all had career years and went on to make the all-star team. Nothing he does on the court makes the game easier for guys compared to a guy like LeBron. LeBron has the best vision and passing of a guy his size since Magic Johnson. All the veteran shooters want to come to Miami because they know their going to get open looks.

And finally guys enjoy playing with LeBron. Thats not true with Jordan. The dude was a prick and although respected by his teammates I bet a lot hated him as well. Pippen, Jordans most acclaimed teammate has gone on air multiple times saying LeBron is better. That tells you something.

The success for the Bulls goes to team personnel. The team was stacked and built to dominate. Is there any question Miami wouldn't be a better team if a 6'3 declining guard with no range in Wade is switched with Pippen(for his entire prime), a 6'8 swingman who is probably the best nonbig defender in NBA History on top of being a 20 PPG scorer. How about if Bosh, a piss poor rebounder and one on one defender is switched with a guy like Rodman, who ensures his team wins the rebounding battle every night?


Then explain how the Heat can win 47 games in 10, then get James AND CHRIS BOSH and only improve to 58.

Because the Heat only had two starters from the team that won 47 games, and one of them was Carlos Arroyo.

[Young X]

Nothing he does on the court makes the game easier for guys compared to a guy like LeBronIf this was true, why did the best offensive players Jordan play with have the most efficient seasons of their career playing with Jordan? You shouldn't use this argument considering that Wade and Bosh got worse playing with Lebron. (Not saying it's his fault, just saying you can't use that argument.)

[Suguru101]

Tony, this thread is golden. You made sensible points backed by facts, and even though some of the points you made were a bit out of some people comfort zone's, no one can call it trolling, just that you came to a different conclusion than them.

I have gained respect for you, hope to see more of this in the future. :applause:

P.S: I think 2014 LeBron will have a chance at surpassing 1992 Jordan(GOAT) in terms of individual play. But i think 2013 LeBron, even though he at times showed that he could play at a GOAT level, wasn't consistent enough a shooter.

This season is where we will see if LeBron can put it all together and have a "peak/summit" year where his skill-set and athleticism are at their best balance, and he just dominates consistently.

[Suguru101]

If this was true, why did the best offensive players Jordan play with have the most efficient seasons of their career playing with Jordan? You shouldn't use this argument considering that Wade and Bosh got worse playing with Lebron. (Not saying it's his fault, just saying you can't use that argument.)

Wade and Chris Bosh had their most efficient seasons this year, playing with a Prime LeBron. So stop that right there...

[TonyMontana]

If this was true, why did the best offensive players Jordan play with have the most efficient seasons of their career playing with Jordan? You shouldn't use this argument considering that Wade and Bosh got worse playing with Lebron. (Not saying it's his fault, just saying you can't use that argument.)

1994 Pippen: 22.0 PPG 8.7 RPG 5.6 APG 49.0% shooting

How is that not Pippens best year(the one year of his prime without Jordan).

Wade was fine in 2011 when he was still elite. Problem with him is he has just declined, nothing to do with LeBron. LeBron had one year of prime Wade as opposed to Jordan having Pippen in his best years and for nearly an entire decade.

Bosh put up big numbers as the focal point on a bad team, not impressed. In 2006 Mike James averaged 20 PPG on the Raptors team along with Bosh who put up 22.5 PPG and 9.2 RPG. That team went 27-55.


Tony, this thread is golden. You made sensible points backed by facts, and even though some of the points you made were a bit out of some people comfort zone's, no one can call it trolling, just that you came to a different conclusion than them.

I have gained respect for you, hope to see more of this in the future. :applause:

P.S: I think 2014 LeBron will have a chance at surpassing 1992 Jordan(GOAT) in terms of individual play. But i think 2013 LeBron, even though he at times showed that he could play at a GOAT level, wasn't consistent enough a shooter.

This season is where we will see if LeBron can put it all together and have a "peak/summit" year where his skill-set and athleticism are at their best balance, and he just dominates consistently.

:cheers:

[oh the horror]

Yawn.

[Doranku]

Mods why is this thread still open? :wtf:

[97 bulls]

Scoring is the one area I will give to Jordan. He is the best scorer in NBA History at 30 PPG 50% shooting in the modern era. However versatality is overrated. It's all about production and I don't care how it comes, but as long as it comes. I'll take a dunk every play if I can get it.
Its no more overrated than implying James is a better better due to defensive versatility. If the only thing that matters is impact, then fine, Jordan was a great defender. Youre contradicting yourself bro

When you compare Jordans scoring output(30 PPG on 50% shooting) to LeBrons (28 PPG on 49% shooting) they are closer than one would think. LeBrons size advantage(which translates to better rebounding and defensive ability) and the ability to make the game easier for guys more than makes up for Jordans 2 PPG and 1% shooting advantage.
Thast not what the stats say. Check the stats of Larry Hughes, Mo Williams, Wade and Bosh. With James and the previous season.


Jordan is definitely not a better team player than LeBron. When he retired(the first time) BJ Armstrong, Horace Grant, and Scottie Pippen all had career years and went on to make the all-star team. Nothing he does on the court makes the game easier for guys compared to a guy like LeBron. LeBron has the best vision and passing of a guy his size since Magic Johnson. All the veteran shooters want to come to Miami because they know their going to get open looks.
Why dont you look at the 91 finals again. How many wide open jumpers did John Paxson get thanks to Jordan drawing his man away from him. And again who has James helped? Every player has had to sacrifice their game for James. Jordan changed his game for the good of the team

And finally guys enjoy playing with LeBron. Thats not true with Jordan. The dude was a prick and although respected by his teammates I bet a lot hated him as well. Pippen, Jordans most acclaimed teammate has gone on air multiple times saying LeBron is better. That tells you something.

The success for the Bulls goes to team personnel. The team was stacked and built to dominate. Is there any question Miami wouldn't be a better team if a 6'3 declining guard with no range in Wade is switched with Pippen(for his entire prime), a 6'8 swingman who is probably the best nonbig defender in NBA History on top of being a 20 PPG scorer. How about if Bosh, a piss poor rebounder and one on one defender is switched with a guy like Rodman, who ensures his team wins the rebounding battle every night?
So how does is this a blemish on Jordans career? Unlike James, his team won and won at a rate no team has ever been able to match. Even if you feel the Heat arent as stacked. That team HAD NOOOOOOO business losing to the Mavericks.

They had NOOOOOOOOOOO business coughing up that fourth quarter lead with 8 minutes to go. Jordan and his teams have never done that.

[Young X]

1994 Pippen: 22.0 PPG 8.7 RPG 5.6 APG 49.0% shooting1994 Pippen: 22/9/6 on 49%/54 TS%
1992 Pippen: 21/8/7 on 51%/56 TS%

Then in the playoffs...

1994: 23/8/5 on 43%/52 TS%
1992: 20/9/7 on 47%/54 TS%

:confusedshrug:

This just proves my point, Pippen's efficiency dropped without Jordan. His FG%, eFG%, TS%, ORTG, APG all dropped playing without Jordan. Less open shots, more defensive pressure. He along with Kukoc, Woolridge, Grant, Paxson, etc. all had their most efficient seasons with Jordan.

[DaHeezy]

Difference between Lebron and Jordan?

2 < 6

Lebron = 2 for 4

Jordan = 6 for 6

:rolleyes:

First post in this thread was an attempt to insult the OP with an unfunny "did not read" post. You think he would live up to that post but what does he do? He proceeds to post in it with a point that has been beaten to death and diffused and backing it up with no substance.
Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you your typical Jordan stan

[Segatti]

Interesting point you make about Jordan's Bulls getting dominated by the Shaq/Grant frontcourt.

If the Heat took 7 games to beat a West/Hibbert front court, how do you think they'd go against a trio of Penny/Grant/Shaq :roll:

dickhead

Exactly :applause:

The bigmen in Jordan's time: Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Karl Malone
Bigmen today: Roy Hibbert, Marc Gasol, Joakim Noah :roll: :roll: :roll:

Of course you don't need a great defensive bigman when there is absolutely no bigman who can score more than 20 points other than Dwightbadfootwork Howard

[97 bulls]

Because the Heat only had two starters from the team that won 47 games, and one of them was Carlos Arroyo.
But youre biggest argument for James is his ability to win on his own. Again, youre contradicting yourself.

[97 bulls]

Exactly :applause:

The bigmen in Jordan's time: Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Karl Malone
Bigmen today: Roy Hibbert, Marc Gasol, Joakim Noah :roll: :roll: :roll:

Of course you don't need a great defensive bigman when there is absolutely no bigman who can score more than 20 points other than Dwightbadfootwork Howard
Exactly.

[TonyMontana]

Its no more overrated than implying James is a better better due to defensive versatility. If the only thing that matters is impact, then fine, Jordan was a great defender. Youre contradicting yourself bro

"Thast not what the stats say. Check the stats of Larry Hughes, Mo Williams, Wade and Bosh. With James and the previous season. "


Why dont you look at the 91 finals again. How many wide open jumpers did John Paxson get thanks to Jordan drawing his man away from him. And again who has James helped? Every player has had to sacrifice their game for James. Jordan changed his game for the good of the team



Defensive versatility helps the team no matter what since LeBron is capable of guarding anyone at any position at a high level(aside from 7 footers). Jordan didn't possess the ability to guard bigs or even points like LeBron can. If his team didn't have the personnel to deal with that(scottie and dennis) they'd be in trouble. Luckily he never ran into this issue.

Players put up less stats in lesser roles....all of which those players were in with LeBron.

LeBron is a better passer and facilitator than Jordan....dont see how your going to argue this. Jordan looks for his shot first, the only one he makes better is himself. LeBron on the other hand looks for his teammates shot first. And he still puts up nearly as many points as Jordan despite that.


1994 Pippen: 22/9/6 on 49%/54 TS%
1992 Pippen: 21/8/7 on 51%/56 TS%

Then in the playoffs...

1994: 23/8/5 on 43%/52 TS%
1992: 20/9/7 on 47%/54 TS%

:confusedshrug:

This just proves my point, Pippen's efficiency dropped without Jordan. His FG%, eFG%, TS%, ORTG, APG all dropped playing without Jordan. Less open shots, more defensive pressure. He along with Kukoc, Woolridge, Grant, Paxson, etc. all had their most efficient seasons with Jordan.

If we are looking at strictly shooting percentages, both Wade and Bosh posted career highs in their field goal percentages this past year so this isn't going anywhere.


But youre biggest argument for James is his ability to win on his own. Again, youre contradicting yourself.

How is that contradicting? Look up what the word means.

The fact is you put current LeBron on ANY team in the league regardless of their roster and their a contender. Thats part of why the Decision was so hyped. Very few players in the history of the league can change a franchise like LeBron.

You will never see prime LeBron lose in the first round regardless of who is on his team.

[longtime lurker]

Bulls
94: 55-27
95: 47-35
96: 72-10
97: 69-13
98: 62-20

Miami prior to Lebron
47-35

Miami post Lebron
58-24
46-20
66-16

I don't even know why Tony Montana brought up the Cavs. That team was in full tank mode in 2011 so obviously they weren't going to be a competitive.

[gts]

The more Tony Montana posts in this thread the more you realize he never saw Jordan play other than some youtube highlights

[SilkkTheShocker]

LeBron is a better player than Jordan ever was.

[Young X]

If we are looking at strictly shooting percentages, both Wade and Bosh posted career highs in their field goal percentages this past year so this isn't going anywhere.That and assists are all we should be looking at. WTF does rebounding have to do with Jordan not making life easier for his teammates offensively? Numerous players have benefited from Lebron AND Jordan drawing attention away from them and getting them easy shots - the shooting %'s and efficiency support that.

You need to understand that Jordan wasn't just a scorer, he was just as much of an all around player that Lebron is. He has like 4 seasons averaging 6+ assists, averaged 6-7 rebounds for his whole career, etc.

[gts]

That and assists are all we should be looking at. WTF does rebounding have to do with Jordan not making life easier for his teammates offensively? Numerous players have benefited from Lebron AND Jordan drawing attention away from them and getting them easy shots - the shooting %'s and efficiency support that.

You need to understand that Jordan wasn't just a scorer, he was just as much of an all around player that Lebron is. He has like 4 seasons averaging 6+ assists, averaged 6-7 rebounds for his whole career, etc.In a system (triangle) that assists are hard to come by

[97 bulls]

Defensive versatility helps the team no matter what since LeBron is capable of guarding anyone at any position at a high level(aside from 7 footers). Jordan didn't possess the ability to guard bigs or even points like LeBron can. If his team didn't have the personnel to deal with that(scottie and dennis) they'd be in trouble. Luckily he never ran into this issue.
Then why didnt he stop Jason Terry? And mind you, this after Terry stated James couldnt stop him.

Players put up less stats in lesser roles....all of which those players were in with LeBron.
Ok. But these players games have had to change. Bosh has been relegated to being jumpshooter almost exclusively. What has James had to sacrifice?


LeBron is a better passer and facilitator than Jordan....dont see how your going to argue this. Jordan looks for his shot first, the only one he makes better is himself. LeBron on the other hand looks for his teammates shot first. And he still puts up nearly as many points as Jordan despite that.
Jordan did the same thing as James. Remember the year he avg 32/8/8?

If we are looking at strictly shooting percentages, both Wade and Bosh posted career highs in their field goal percentages this past year so this isn't going anywhere.
OK, but were not. As a whole, James teammates game has to suffer because he dominates the ball.

How is that contradicting? Look up what the word means.


The fact is you put current LeBron on ANY team in the league regardless of their roster and their a contender. Thats part of why the Decision was so hyped. Very few players in the history of the league can change a franchise like LeBron.
Semantic Tony.
You will never see prime LeBron lose in the first round regardless of who is on his team.
And we NEVER saw Jordan lose to team his team was favored against
Advantage Jordan.

[diamenz]

jordan fans/stans vs. lebron fans/stans. the good thing about the jordan folks is that they don't circle jerk each other.

jordan is labeled goat not only because of his stats, achievements, and awards; but because of what he actually did on the court. watch the games - it's not rocket science. he doesn't flop. he doesn't disappear when his team is down and then reappear when they're up. he didn't jump ship and play alongside zeke and joe. you can split hairs any way you want to, but the big picture says otherwise.

[97 bulls]

Bulls
94: 55-27
95: 47-35
96: 72-10
97: 69-13
98: 62-20

Miami prior to Lebron
47-35

Miami post Lebron
58-24
46-20
66-16

I don't even know why Tony Montana brought up the Cavs. That team was in full tank mode in 2011 so obviously they weren't going to be a competitive.
Even if you look at the 95 season. The Bulls were winning roughly 53% of their games. When Jordan shows up they jump to 76%

[andgar923]

Anybody with half a brain cell and actual basketball experience will tell you that the game was different back then. MJ didn't grab more rebounds because he couldn't, it was because his role was different due to the era he played in.

The era he played in was more big man dominated. The role for playing in the paint was primarily a big man's role where they lived. Unlike today in which big men play in the perimeter, they played in the paint which was tougher and grimier.

MJ also had to spend more energy that Bron does today. Not only did he have to fight multiple double/triple teams, physical play on offense, he also had to fight through multiple screens on defense, his man running all over the court. On the flip side, today's NBA is more stationary, more one on one, less physical so Bron doesn't have to use as much energy physically.

And then there's the most obvious reason as to why MJ didn't grab more rebounds, a reason so obvious a 10 year old will see it as such:

DIFFERENT POSITION

MJ's role is to guard the other wing players so defensively he's already further from the rim. He also has to chase down perimeter players and get position, they're also the first to get down the court and as a perimeter player he's supposed to protect until the bigs get down court.

Bron plays the point FORWARD position. And even tho his game is versatile he eventually has to guard players closer to the basket.

Yet, there's another reason why Bron has more rebounds

[SpurrDurr]

I know OP is trolling but so are MJ stans. People gotta admit that MJ Bulls were STACKED.

[diamenz]

I know OP is trolling but so are MJ stans. People gotta admit that MJ Bulls were STACKED.

the 91-93 bulls were STACKED?

[97 bulls]

I know OP is trolling but so are MJ stans. People gotta admit that MJ Bulls were STACKED.
No one is saying the Bulls werent. Or Im not. But the Heat are stacked too.

What funny is how TonyMontana continues to spout how LeBron James won these last two championships on his own. Even in spite of his team. But then claims he didnt win in 11 due to not having better teammates. What gives? You cant give him all the credit when hiz team wins. Then place all the blame on his team when they lose.

[raprap]

tony :applause:

he really is a good poster. he honestly knows a lot about bball.

[DaHeezy]

jordan fans/stans vs. lebron fans/stans. the good thing about the jordan folks is that they don't circle jerk each other.

jordan is labeled goat not only because of his stats, achievements, and awards; but because of what he actually did on the court. watch the games - it's not rocket science. he doesn't flop. he doesn't disappear when his team is down and then reappear when they're up. he didn't jump ship and play alongside zeke and joe. you can split hairs any way you want to, but the big picture says otherwise.

Absolutely UNTRUE.
Take this thread for example. All the Jordan stans all on cue are in this thread patting eachother on the back. Tony is single handedly taking all you circle jerkers on.
Again, another Jordaneer calling the kettle black when it's flip flopped in reality.

[Young X]

I know OP is trolling but so are MJ stans. People gotta admit that MJ Bulls were STACKED.At least they didn't choke against elite teams like the Spurs do.

[sekachu]

lebron is taller than MJ which is the only difference. /thread

[longtime lurker]

Even if you look at the 95 season. The Bulls were winning roughly 53% of their games. When Jordan shows up they jump to 76%

Where can I get pre and post Jordan numbers?

[secund2nun]

Great thread, but they don't want to hear it.

[DaHeezy]

lebron is taller than MJ which is the only difference. /thread

So if the only difference is height then you're saying Lebron = MJ as a player. But height is an asset in basketball so therefor Lebron > MJ

Well let's end thread right there

[DaHeezy]

Lebron James age 28, 10 seasons, 765 games
Michael Jordan age 28, 8 seasons, 589 games

http://i41.tinypic.com/6y0dut.jpg

For the sake of argument, even if you added an extra three years and Jordan got drafted out of HS the chart would still look the same. In three years previous no way Jordan would have won hardware in the prime of the Larry Bird/Magic Johnson era. The chart would look the same as TonyMontana's

[tpols]

Lack of big men today makes it EASIER for Lebron to hit the boards.. MJ had to deal with real skilled and athletic rebounding big men, Lebron faces a bunch of sissies on the boards compared to who the Bulls faced in the 90s.

Got lebron kiddos mentioning david west as a name thats supposed to impress anybody:oldlol: 93 Charles Barkley eats Lebrons for lunch on the boards and anywhere down low in the post. So does dennis rodman, pat ewing, shaq, hakeem, zo, mutumbo, malone, and every other big men that Jordan had to contend with.

[Sarcastic]

For the sake of argument, even if you added an extra three years and Jordan got drafted out of HS the chart would still look the same. In three years previous no way Jordan would have won hardware in the prime of the Larry Bird/Magic Johnson era. The chart would look the same as TonyMontana's


Because winning MVP and rings in the 1980s was much harder than it is now. In the 1980s the competition for MVP was prime Larry Bird, prime Magic, prime Moses Malone. Lebron in his MVP seasons beat out 21 year old Durant, 23 year old Durant, 24 year old Durant, and 30 year old Kobe. The competition in the 1980s for the award is perhaps the most stacked of all time. The last 5 years of MVP have been a joke when you consider the competition. I mean Derrick Rose won an MVP in that span as well. You think he wins it if he's competing with Bird or Magic?

[TheMan]

One of Montana's favorite reasons as to why he say LeBron is greater than Jordan is this crap about James being the first player in NBA history to lead his team to a chip with a bad FC, right? Well guess what, elite big men in today's NBA are a species in verge of extinction. It is so much easier to win a so so FC today than in 00's (prime Duncan, KG, Shaq, Gasol, Wallace, Howard) than the last few years. The game has become perimeter oriented. It was a rule of thumb you needed a stud C to win a title, GOAT MJ changed that. His "elite FC" in the first threepeat consisted of Cartwright, Will Purdue, Scott Williams and Horace Grant. Real bunch of HOFers. Don't get me wrong. I love me some Horace but TonyMontana wants to sale you the idea that Grant was an elite PF. He wasn't. He was a role player. MJ and to an extent, Pippen are the reason the Bulls won 6 titles. Me and countless of othe Bulls fans know this because we watched those games. There's a reason Jordan has a statue at the UC and not Grant. Montana is just a LeBron jockriding nerd that watched a few YouTube videos.

It isn't a real big deal that LeBron has won with what the OP call the worst NBA title winning FC because this is a weak era for FCs. Scrub Hibbert (he's nowhere near elite big man in the 80s/90s) forced the Heat to a 7th game . Just imagine what FCs like Hakeem/Thorpe, Ewing/Oakley, Robinson/Duncan, Shaq/Grant, Smitts/Davis Boys, Zo/Johnson, Parish/McHale, Rodman/Mahorn or Eaton/Malone would do to this Heat. Bloodbath. It ain't that impressive winning in this era of weak bigs. What Jordan did do was win without a legit big in the greatest era of bigs in NBA history.

MJ > LBJ and it ain't close.

[TheMan]

For the sake of argument, even if you added an extra three years and Jordan got drafted out of HS the chart would still look the same. In three years previous no way Jordan would have won hardware in the prime of the Larry Bird/Magic Johnson era. The chart would look the same as TonyMontana's
Great point. I know you are anti Jordan but me as a Jordan fan, I always point out the fact that MJ was going up against absolute GOAT candidates like Bird/Magic for MVP in his early years...meanwhile LeBron's comp is DRose, DHoward, KD, CP3 or Melo.

Even in MVP competition, MJ is superior to LeBron:oldlol:

[97 bulls]

One of Montana's favorite reasons as to why he say LeBron is greater than Jordan is this crap about James being the first player in NBA history to lead his team to a chip with a bad FC, right? Well guess what, elite big men in today's NBA are a species in verge of extinction. It is so much easier to win a so so FC today than in 00's (prime Duncan, KG, Shaq, Gasol, Wallace, Howard) than the last few years. The game has become perimeter oriented. It was a rule of thumb you needed a stud C to win a title, GOAT MJ changed that. His "elite FC" in the first threepeat consisted of Cartwright, Will Purdue, Scott Williams and Horace Grant. Real bunch of HOFers. Don't get me wrong. I love me some Horace but TonyMontana wants to sale you the idea that Grant was an elite PF. He wasn't. He was a role player. MJ and to an extent, Pippen are the reason the Bulls won 6 titles. Me and countless of othe Bulls fans know this because we watched those games. There's a reason Jordan has a statue at the UC and not Grant. Montana is just a LeBron jockriding nerd that watched a few YouTube videos.

It isn't a real big deal that LeBron has won with what the OP call the worst NBA title winning FC because this is a weak era for FCs. Scrub Hibbert (he's nowhere near elite big man in the 80s/90s) forced the Heat to a 7th game . Just imagine what FCs like Hakeem/Thorpe, Ewing/Oakley, Robinson/Duncan, Shaq/Grant, Smitts/Davis Boys, Zo/Johnson, Parish/McHale, Rodman/Mahorn or Eaton/Malone would do to this Heat. Bloodbath. It ain't that impressive winning in this era of weak bigs. What Jordan did do was win without a legit big in the greatest era of bigs in NBA history.

MJ > LBJ and it ain't close.
I feel the same. I keep saying Roy Hibbert would be a slightly better Luc Longley in the 90s.

[97 bulls]

Great point. I know you are anti Jordan but me as a Jordan fan, I always point out the fact that MJ was going up against absolute GOAT candidates like Bird/Magic for MVP in his early years...meanwhile LeBron's comp is DRose, DHoward, KD, CP3 or Melo.

Even in MVP competition, MJ is superior to LeBron:oldlol:
Yep. As a point of emphasis. Scottie Pippens 94 season wouldve netted him two MVPs in the current generation. Roses MVP and Nashs. And hed have a DPOY award.

[97 bulls]

Lack of big men today makes it EASIER for Lebron to hit the boards.. MJ had to deal with real skilled and athletic rebounding big men, Lebron faces a bunch of sissies on the boards compared to who the Bulls faced in the 90s.

Got lebron kiddos mentioning david west as a name thats supposed to impress anybody:oldlol: 93 Charles Barkley eats Lebrons for lunch on the boards and anywhere down low in the post. So does dennis rodman, pat ewing, shaq, hakeem, zo, mutumbo, malone, and every other big men that Jordan had to contend with.
Lol I thought the same thing. Who dafuq is David West? I mean hes solid. But come on.

[funnystuff]

Holy fk, Tony is absolutely ETHERING everyone. With FACTS. :bowdown:

[TheMan]

Holy fk, Tony is absolutely ETHERING everyone. With FACTS. :bowdown:
lol

nice try though.:oldlol:

[sportjames23]

Holy fk, Tony is absolutely ETHERING everyone. With FACTS. :bowdown:


The Spock in your universe has a goatee, right?

[PickernRoller]

Greatest Fact of this thread is how Delusional OP is.

Op and his piggy backers like to sell the idea that an argumentative rebuttal is required to put these baseless and silly assumptions to rest. No you don't need them. The only thing you need is the ability to ban a user in this forum. Sadly, an exclusive right to Jeff.

[Dionysus]

[QUOTE=andgar923]Anybody with half a brain cell and actual basketball experience will tell you that the game was different back then. MJ didn't grab more rebounds because he couldn't, it was because his role was different due to the era he played in.

The era he played in was more big man dominated. The role for playing in the paint was primarily a big man's role where they lived. Unlike today in which big men play in the perimeter, they played in the paint which was tougher and grimier.

MJ also had to spend more energy that Bron does today. Not only did he have to fight multiple double/triple teams, physical play on offense, he also had to fight through multiple screens on defense, his man running all over the court. On the flip side, today's NBA is more stationary, more one on one, less physical so Bron doesn't have to use as much energy physically.

And then there's the most obvious reason as to why MJ didn't grab more rebounds, a reason so obvious a 10 year old will see it as such:

DIFFERENT POSITION

MJ's role is to guard the other wing players so defensively he's already further from the rim. He also has to chase down perimeter players and get position, they're also the first to get down the court and as a perimeter player he's supposed to protect until the bigs get down court.

Bron plays the point FORWARD position. And even tho his game is versatile he eventually has to guard players closer to the basket.

Yet, there's another reason why Bron has more rebounds

[Nash]

We should just get one thing straight. Jordan wasn't playing against Hakeem every night.

Also, sure, bigs were better back then but guards and perimeter players are better today. Which is where Lebron and Jordan spent the most of the game against.

But, at the end of the day. Lebron has a lot of things going for him in this Jordan vs Lebron discussion but Jordan is still the better player and the goat.

[TheMan]

After that long wall of written excuses for Michael Jordans pathetic rebounding, and inferior rebounding to LeBron, you proceed to end it by saying Jordan is a better rebounder than LeBron?:roll: :roll:

This is too funny, now I want to see your excuse on why Jordan is nowhere near good a passer and why his assist numbers can't touch the King. I'll be waiting for your wank of an excuse:lol
Hey, lemme explain the positional difference between LBJ and MJ in simpler terms since andgar's went over your head:facepalm:

In soccer or what you guys call football, a striker fr example is supossed to score more goals than a center back, why? Because of positioning and duties required of the position they play, the striker by position alone is closer to the opposition's goal area than the CB and one of the...you know what, fvck it. This is why Bron stans are seen as the biggest morons here and me explaining the simple concept that a F naturally will have more rebound attempts than a gaurd who is further from the rim won't get through your dense heads. BTW, stick to footy you limey cvnt, your clueless in basketball. Leave that to us 'Muricans

[PJR]

Going to briefly interrupt my Vegas vacation to chime in on this...

I'm a die hard Heat fan, and have grown as partial to LeBron the player as you can get...

But he's not Jordan.

All you had to do was watch them. LeBron is certainly better at certain aspects of the game, namely rebounding, playmaking, not to mention the versatility on the defensive end. But Jordan is undoubtedly the better big game player. Intangibles is what set Michael away from the rest of the pack.

Jordan NEVER choked in a series like LeBron did in the 2011 Finals. IT NEVER HAPPENED.

When Jordan's team were legitimately in position to complete for the title, he came thru pretty much every time. And the one time he didn't it was a 7 game ECF battle to the eventual champion Pistons. And in that series, he averaged 32-7-6.



The OP can't continually try to marginalize the impact of Wade or Bosh in order to prop up LeBron with this past years post-season run, and yet gloss over LeBron's horrific 2011 Finals. A series where got sufficient enough support from his co-stars, and yet it was HE, LeBron James, who wet the bed when the team needed him the most.

LeBron scored 8 points in game 4, brah. EIGHT! How does that happen??? 8 points in an NBA Finals game from the best player? No injury. As close to 100% as you can be?

I don't hold any of LeBron's Cleveland years against him, because he took those teams ultimately as far as they could go, and no player in NBA history would've done better given the same set of circumstances. But the series against Dallas? Considering how closely contested the games were? And the fact that Wade was playing like a savage? If LeBron simply scored within 2 or 3 points of his season average, the Heat would be shooting for 4 titles in a row right now.

Now LeBron bounced back viciously from that series, and has been sensational the last two seasons. But you can't just act like that series didn't happen. It did.

LeBron is great, and he's still got the rest of his career ahead of him. But his legend isn't on par with Michael's. Not yet at least.

[Bandito]

Holy fk, Tony is absolutely ETHERING everyone. With FACTS. :bowdown:
Is Lebron's jizz blinding your eyes? I don't see any ethering here except everyone gangbanging Montana.

[sdot_thadon]

As far as the topic of the thread goes, op is on point. Mj did have seasons where he filled many roles at once, but Lebron's career has consisted of this role. No other superstar has been asked to do so much on a night in night out basis as Lebron does, it's a testament to his greatness that's he's been able to maintain this output at the level he has.

Now on the side stuff that gets dragged into every Lebron thread, 2011 happened. To say that Mj or Kobe or any random player would have won in Lebron's place is asinine because they would have to deal with whatever pressures Lebron had as well. He moved on and became a better player, had it not happened he may have never taken the next step as a player. Just like Mj had to take his lumps against the pistons, against orlando when he 1st came back. The failures are part of the story, all players fail at some point. The best use it to reach the next level.

[Bandito]

As far as the topic of the thread goes, op is on point. Mj did have seasons where he filled many roles at once, but Lebron's career has consisted of this role. No other superstar has been asked to do so much on a night in night out basis as Lebron does, it's a testament to his greatness that's he's been able to maintain this output at the level he has.

Now on the side stuff that gets dragged into every Lebron thread, 2011 happened. To say that Mj or Kobe or any random player would have won in Lebron's place is asinine because they would have to deal with whatever pressures Lebron had as well. He moved on and became a better player, had it not happened he may have never taken the next step as a player. Just like Mj had to take his lumps against the pistons, against orlando when he 1st came back. The failures are part of the story, all players fail at some point. The best use it to reach the next level.
Why would MJ or Kobe winning on 2011 is asinine? The Heat were the favorites to win and could've won or at least go 7 games if Lebron didn't disappeared on the last game. We are not talking about he trying his best and failing like MJ vs the pistons in the 80's or Kobe vs Celtics in 08, we are talking about him just straight giving up (I thought he was on the bench the whole time, I even forgot he was playing. I never seen that in my life). MJ or Kobe for that matter wouldn't had given up on the team until the last second.

Could they have lost? Yes, but they would leave everything they have on the floor. Lebron never done that in his career until game 6 of this year Finals when his back was against the wall.

[sdot_thadon]

Why would MJ or Kobe winning on 2011 is asinine? The Heat were the favorites to win and could've won or at least go 7 games if Lebron didn't disappeared on the last game. We are not talking about he trying his best and failing like MJ vs the pistons in the 80's or Kobe vs Celtics in 08, we are talking about him just straight giving up (I thought he was on the bench the whole time, I even forgot he was playing. I never seen that in my life). MJ or Kobe for that matter wouldn't had given up on the team until the last second.
So while playing a game of what ifs, do you place them in the exact same conditions as Lebron? Or conveniently transplant their situation into his? I think more than choking was in play in 2011. Lebron had the pressure of living up to the decision on his back, had just been prematurely called better than Mj by Mj's wingman, oh and had an identity crisis going on on the floor as well. Also played every game knowing what type of summer losing would bring. Would they be subjected to playing with a guy near their equal in talent and play style? And that guy having a hell of a series where maybe they'd feel the need to stay out of his way?

Fyi not excusing his play in any way, he flat out stank. Just pointing out that what ifs are very sketchy.

[kNicKz]

Lebron James age 28, 10 seasons, 765 games
Michael Jordan age 28, 8 seasons, 589 games

http://i41.tinypic.com/6y0dut.jpg

:roll:

[Bandito]

So while playing a game of what ifs, do you place them in the exact same conditions as Lebron? Or conveniently transplant their situation into his? I think more than choking was in play in 2011. Lebron had the pressure of living up to the decision on his back, had just been prematurely called better than Mj by Mj's wingman, oh and had an identity crisis going on on the floor as well. Also played every game knowing what type of summer losing would bring. Would they be subjected to playing with a guy near their equal in talent and play style? And that guy having a hell of a series where maybe they'd feel the need to stay out of his way?

Fyi not excusing his play in any way, he flat out stank. Just pointing out that what ifs are very sketchy.
But you're doing the same what if scenario by stating what if MJ and Kobe played with the same scrutiny they would have the same result in your previous post.

But in reality the problem with 2011 is not him losing, is how he lost. Like you said he flat out stank. If he didn't choke the way he did (I am not talking about pts in the 4 quarter I am talking about straight disappearing) he wouldn't have had the same summer of fail he had in 2011. He learned from that, no doubts (he became better thanks to that), but would MJ or Kobe have done the same if their back was against the wall?

[Dionysus]

Hey, lemme explain the positional difference between LBJ and MJ in simpler terms since andgar's went over your head:facepalm:

In soccer or what you guys call football, a striker fr example is supossed to score more goals than a center back, why? Because of positioning and duties required of the position they play, the striker by position alone is closer to the opposition's goal area than the CB and one of the...you know what, fvck it. This is why Bron stans are seen as the biggest morons here and me explaining the simple concept that a F naturally will have more rebound attempts than a gaurd who is further from the rim won't get through your dense heads. BTW, stick to footy you limey cvnt, your clueless in basketball. Leave that to us 'Muricans

As someone who watches f

[sdot_thadon]

But you're doing the same what if scenario by stating what if MJ and Kobe played with the same scrutiny they would have the same result in your previous post.

But in reality the problem with 2011 is not him losing, is how he lost. Like you said he flat out stank. If he didn't choke the way he did (I am not talking about pts in the 4 quarter I am talking about straight disappearing) he wouldn't have had the same summer of fail he had in 2011. He learned from that, no doubts (he became better thanks to that), but would MJ or Kobe have done the same if their back was against the wall?
Actually I wasn't, just showing there's much more to an event than just swapping this guy for that one and expecting, proclaiming results. There are literally thousands of possibilities, Mj and Wade maybe wouldn't have been able to coexist, maybe Mj wouldn't have been happy being outplayed by a teammate and start jacking shots. Too many to narrow down to one absolute like Mj would have won in his spot, which may not be what you stated but what is thrown around here often when 2011 comes up.

[TheMan]

[QUOTE=Dionysus]As someone who watches f

[f0und]

the main thing that separates them is one of them elevates his game in the playoffs, and even more so in the finals. along the way, he has put up the most number of legendary playoff series, had the most number of legendary playoff games, and had the most number of legendary single playoff moments.

can you guess which one is the one im talking about?

[Papaya Petee]

LeBron Cavaliers? 2010-2011 Wade was the best player on the Heat and LeBron's chokejob cost them a ring.

In 2011-2012 Wade averaged 22\5\5 in the regular season on great efficiency, averaged 23\6\5 in the playoffs and 23\6\5 in the NBA Finals. That's LeBron being a one man team?

in 2012-2013 when Wade was at his healthiest in the regular season he was the best player on the Heat for almost a 2 month stretch. 21\5\5 in the regular season on great efficiency.

Wade gets injured in the playoffs and all of a sudden he's a liability??

[Bandito]

Actually I wasn't, just showing there's much more to an event than just swapping this guy for that one and expecting, proclaiming results. There are literally thousands of possibilities, Mj and Wade maybe wouldn't have been able to coexist, maybe Mj wouldn't have been happy being outplayed by a teammate and start jacking shots. Too many to narrow down to one absolute like Mj would have won in his spot, which may not be what you stated but what is thrown around here often when 2011 comes up.
True but in my hypothetical situation I was only talking about game 6 of the 2011 finals, and not really about the results, but more of how they play. If MJ played in that game and lost, do you honestly believe the main reason behind it would be because he gave up ? Or because he got owned by a better team?

[Bandito]

LeBron Cavaliers? 2010-2011 Wade was the best player on the Heat and LeBron's chokejob cost them a ring.

In 2011-2012 Wade averaged 22\5\5 in the regular season on great efficiency, averaged 23\6\5 in the playoffs and 23\6\5 in the NBA Finals. That's LeBron being a one man team?

in 2012-2013 when Wade was at his healthiest in the regular season he was the best player on the Heat for almost a 2 month stretch. 21\5\5 in the regular season on great efficiency.

Wade gets injured in the playoffs and all of a sudden he's a liability??
By lebronite reasoning yes.:facepalm

[Frozen1]

Oh my, lebron was guarding "David Wests", what a goat player he is to use his name in this way. Lebron was guarding him so well that he and hibbert were droping 25 a game against miami in the playoffs.

And lebron must have the worst luck of any nba player in history. Because both teams he played were bad and he had to carry them. Cleveland a shitty teamand miami with the soft bosh and old wade and old ray allen. Poor lebron.

The only reason lebron won 2 ringz in miami is because now he is a superior player and the goat. Put the miami lebron back in cleveland and they 4-peat.

Lebron the GOAT is the only guy who had to carry the cleveland cavaliers and the miami cavaliers. GOAT :bowdown:

[Dionysus]

Yeah I agree, there are things James does better than Jordan, choking is one of them:oldlol:

Give me one series where Jordan had a remotely close drop off in production as Bron had in 2011 Finals:confusedshrug:
:oldlol:

So losing in the Finals is worst than taking 6 years to even make a Finals? LeBron got to a finals in 4yrs with a garbage team and a garbage coach, meanwhile in Jordans 4th year he lost 3 straight games vs The Pistons in the conference finals in which he shot 5-15fg in one game and then practically quit on his team by only attempting 8 shots. He pulled a Kobe vs Suns.:oldlol:

Just because Jordan didn't lose in the Finals doesn't mean he never choked.

Also LeBron never had the luxury Jordan has where he can shoot 41% and 42% in Finals and still win. Jordan's stacked teams carried him.

[I<3NBA]

the difference between Lebron and Jordan?

Jordan = GOAT.

end of story.

[daily]

So losing in the Finals is worst than taking 6 years to even make a Finals? LeBron got to a finals in 4yrs with a garbage team and a garbage coach, meanwhile in Jordans 4th year he lost 3 straight games vs The Pistons in the conference finals in which he shot 5-15fg in one game and then practically quit on his team by only attempting 8 shots. He pulled a Kobe vs Suns.:oldlol:

Just because Jordan didn't lose in the Finals doesn't mean he never choked.

Also LeBron never had the luxury Jordan has where he can shoot 41% and 42% in Finals and still win. Jordan's stacked teams carried him.

The amount of history and context you had to ignore to to make this post is mind boggling.

[Dionysus]

the main thing that separates them is one of them elevates his game in the playoffs, and even more so in the finals. along the way, he has put up the most number of legendary playoff series, had the most number of legendary playoff games, and had the most number of legendary single playoff moments.

can you guess which one is the one im talking about?

I'm guessing LeBron.

Greatest game 7 player of All Time. Has better Elimination game stats than Jordan and Kobe.

Also has that game 5 vs Pistons, his game 6 vs Celtics, his headband game, and his clutch closer game 7 that has gained him the same amount of titles Jordan had at age 28.

[Leviathon1121]

I'm guessing LeBron.

Greatest game 7 player of All Time. Has better Elimination game stats than Jordan and Kobe.

Also has that game 5 vs Pistons, his game 6 vs Celtics, his headband game, and his clutch closer game 7 that has gained him the same amount of titles Jordan had at age 28.

I'll take the player who simply doesn't allow a series to go 7 games.

[Dionysus]

The amount of history and context you had to ignore to to make this post is mind boggling.

Finals Numbers

95-96'. 27ppg 5reb 4ast 41%fg

97-98' 33ppg 4reb 2ast 42%fg (ball hog shotjacking chucker to the maximum:oldlol: )

Kobe-esqu numbers.:roll:

[Dionysus]

I'll take the player who simply doesn't allow a series to go 7 games.

You talking about the loser Jordan who never got to a Finals in his first 6years? Or are you talking about the Jordan who had GOAT coach Phil Jackson and GOAT sidekick Scottie Pippen to help him win?

[Trollsmasher]

LeBron Cavaliers? 2010-2011 Wade was the best player on the Heat and LeBron's chokejob cost them a ring.

In 2011-2012 Wade averaged 22\5\5 in the regular season on great efficiency, averaged 23\6\5 in the playoffs and 23\6\5 in the NBA Finals. That's LeBron being a one man team?

in 2012-2013 when Wade was at his healthiest in the regular season he was the best player on the Heat for almost a 2 month stretch. 21\5\5 in the regular season on great efficiency.

Wade gets injured in the playoffs and all of a sudden he's a liability??
Watch the game and then come posting please.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I wish that a 26-29 year old MJ was in the league right now to absolutely shit down Bron's throat and send these little kiddies screaming to their moms. :oldlol:

It's not even a comparison between the two of them.

[Eric Cartman]

You talking about the loser Jordan who never got to a Finals in his first 6years? Or are you talking about the Jordan who had GOAT coach Phil Jackson and GOAT sidekick Scottie Pippen to help him win?

You mean the sidekick who was a Finals MVP himself?

[HurricaneKid]

in 2012-2013 when Wade was at his healthiest in the regular season he was the best player on the Heat for almost a 2 month stretch.

Wade gets injured in the playoffs and all of a sudden he's a liability??

Thats absurd. I like Wade. A LOT. But LeBron shot .641 from the field in February and I can't imagine what two month stretch you are coming up with that brings him even close to LeBron.

And yes, when you are -54 in the series for the NBA Finals you are a liability. He shouldn't have been playing.

[DaHeezy]

You mean the sidekick who was a Finals MVP himself?

So you're saying Wade is a better sidekick than Pippen?
Don't let an argument blow up in your face

[TheMan]

You talking about the loser Jordan who never got to a Finals in his first 6years? Or are you talking about the Jordan who had GOAT coach Phil Jackson and GOAT sidekick Scottie Pippen to help him win?
So much ignorance of context in this one post:facepalm: Really man, you need to stick to soccer, your basketball IQ is in negative territory.

When LeBron took the Cavs to the Finals in 07 as a youngster, it was something to applaud and give him credit for on it's face. But if you dig deeper, the EC was hot garbage that year, the defending champs Wade Heat were racked with injuries and were knocked out in tge first round by the baby Bulls. The Pacers, Nets and Pistons were done by this point and this is one year before the original big 3 hooked up in Boston. The East was so bad that the Cavs faced only one team with a winning record in the EC playoffs:oldlol: This is the reason the Cavs got merked in the Finals 4-0, they really shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Back in 86-89 when MJ was beasting and had no All Star teammates, he was facing a stacked EC, the Cavs and more importantly, the 86 Celtics and late 80s Detroit Pistons, two of the greatest teams in NBA history. Believe me, LeBron ain't leading his 07 Cavs past any of those teams:oldlol:

It's all about context you stat nerd, actually watching games helps. Stick to footy, mate.

[DaHeezy]

Great point. I know you are anti Jordan but me as a Jordan fan, I always point out the fact that MJ was going up against absolute GOAT candidates like Bird/Magic for MVP in his early years...meanwhile LeBron's comp is DRose, DHoward, KD, CP3 or Melo.

Even in MVP competition, MJ is superior to LeBron:oldlol:

I'm actually impressed you didn't diminish the post but actually took it into consideration. I may be wrong about all Jordan stans, good to see some level headed fans.

I would necessarily diminish Lebron's MVP's. Early in his years he had to compete with an equally impressive group in Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe. Nash was an anomaly but you still can't diminish those accomplishments. You got to look at the bulk of Jordan's MVPs where he had to compete with the Malones, Barkleys, Hakeems, and Robinsons.
Although D12, Durant, CP3 don't look as impressive now, they haven't quite finish their careers to stamp their legacies.
Besides, MVP is a useless hardware voted based on opinion, otherwise you can't support the MVP argument then at the same time chastise it because guys like Nash and Rose won it because it's voted by the same criteria. If anything you can say even though Rose won it, Lebron was still a better player.

[funnystuff]

Is Lebron's jizz blinding your eyes? I don't see any ethering here except everyone gangbanging Montana.
He's using stats and facts. The only reason you deem it a troll thread is because the stats don't go your way.


@ The man, Jordan would never make the finals if he had Lebrons Cavalier squad. That is what puts Lebron > MJ in terms of player. MJ > Lebron in terms of accolades.

[DaHeezy]

He's using stats and facts. The only reason you deem it a troll thread is because the stats don't go your way.


@ The man, Jordan would never make the finals if he had Lebrons Cavalier squad. That is what puts Lebron > MJ in terms of player. MJ > Lebron in terms of accolades.

this right there is the problem with the Jordaneers.
Jordaneers treat facts like they were at the Jordan buffet. They overload their plates with the things they like and pass on the things that don't fit on their plate

[Eric Cartman]

The man, Jordan would never make the finals if he had Lebrons Cavalier squad.

By which logic did you come to this conclusion?

[DaHeezy]

By which logic did you come to this conclusion?

Although it seems hypothetical, it's pretty much reasonable to say this would be a likely scenario. Not just saying Jordan, but for any basketball player with the exception of maybe Shaq, Wilt, Hakeem, or Kareem.
To say Jordan could have carried that squad to a finals is highly unlikely and a very validated statement.

[Dionysus]

By which logic did you come to this conclusion?

:lol @ the idea of Jordan carrying a team like the Cavs to the Finals.

[KG215]

Although it seems hypothetical, it's pretty much reasonable to say this would be a likely scenario. Not just saying Jordan, but for any basketball player with the exception of maybe Shaq, Wilt, Hakeem, or Kareem.
To say Jordan could have carried that squad to a finals is highly unlikely and a very validated statement.
Eh...given how weak the East was at the time, I think there's some validity to it. But that's assuming Jordan would face the same or similar competition in the playoffs.

Not saying it'd be a guarantee, but I think there's some versions of Jordan that could get that Cavs team through that weak of an EC, and to the Finals.

[DaHeezy]

Eh...given how weak the East was at the time, I think there's some validity to it. But that's assuming Jordan would face the same or similar competition in the playoffs.

Not saying it'd be a guarantee, but I think there's some versions of Jordan that could get that Cavs team through that weak of an EC, and to the Finals.

That Cavs team is a mess minus Lebron. I find Jordan is in that similar mold as AI (not saying they're the same player) in which the team needs to have elite role players for him to thrive. Is he capable of carrying this team? Absolutely. But I don't think the team would strive had Jordan have to fill out roles as a facilitator, the primary and only defender, and have to work within the post, not to mention the coaching style.
carry the team? Likely, finals? Longshot.

[chazzy]

Although it seems hypothetical, it's pretty much reasonable to say this would be a likely scenario. Not just saying Jordan, but for any basketball player with the exception of maybe Shaq, Wilt, Hakeem, or Kareem.
To say Jordan could have carried that squad to a finals is highly unlikely and a very validated statement.
07 Lebron wasn't that good relative to his other years

[sdot_thadon]

True but in my hypothetical situation I was only talking about game 6 of the 2011 finals, and not really about the results, but more of how they play. If MJ played in that game and lost, do you honestly believe the main reason behind it would be because he gave up ? Or because he got owned by a better team?
Ok, I'll give you that. I understand where you're coming from. I honestly don't think any alpha perimeter player would have been able to mesh with Wade quick enough or at all to win the title that year though. Him and Lebron maybe only made it that far the 1st year due to a pre existing friendship. I don't think Wade would have been as willing to share/hand over the reigns to any other star. Would have been an epic implosion I'd guess. Just a shot in the dark though.

[KG215]

That Cavs team is a mess minus Lebron. I find Jordan is in that similar mold as AI (not saying they're the same player) in which the team needs to have elite role players for him to thrive. Is he capable of carrying this team? Absolutely. But I don't think the team would strive had Jordan have to fill out roles as a facilitator, the primary and only defender, and have to work within the post, not to mention the coaching style.
carry the team? Likely, finals? Longshot.
It'd ultimately depend on what version of Jordan you pick, but there are versions (even pre-championship versions) of Jordan that were a better all-around/two-way player than 2007 LeBron.

[nathanjizzle]

how stupid and delusional are kids these days.:roll:

[Sarcastic]

:lol @ the idea of Jordan carrying a team like the Cavs to the Finals.


Prime Dominique Wilkins could carry the Cavs to the 2007 finals in the weak ass Eastern Conference.

[TonyMontana]

[QUOTE=andgar923]
And then there's the most obvious reason as to why MJ didn't grab more rebounds, a reason so obvious a 10 year old will see it as such:

DIFFERENT POSITION

MJ's role is to guard the other wing players so defensively he's already further from the rim. He also has to chase down perimeter players and get position, they're also the first to get down the court and as a perimeter player he's supposed to protect until the bigs get down court.

Bron plays the point FORWARD position. And even tho his game is versatile he eventually has to guard players closer to the basket.

Yet, there's another reason why Bron has more rebounds

[TonyMontana]

I'm guessing LeBron.

Greatest game 7 player of All Time. Has better Elimination game stats than Jordan and Kobe.

Also has that game 5 vs Pistons, his game 6 vs Celtics, his headband game, and his clutch closer game 7 that has gained him the same amount of titles Jordan had at age 28.

Yeah LeBron might be the best player in NBA History when overcoming adversity.

Lets be real what real challenge did the Bulls have in the 90s when they won their titles?

[TheMan]

He's using stats and facts. The only reason you deem it a troll thread is because the stats don't go your way.


@ The man, Jordan would never make the finals if he had Lebrons Cavalier squad. That is what puts Lebron > MJ in terms of player. MJ > Lebron in terms of accolades.
1. Speculation, you say he can't, I say he can. Especially considering the EC in 07 was absolute dog shit.

2. From 86-89, the young Jordan led Bulls lost 3 out of those 4 times to the eventual NBA champions, the 86 Celtics and the repeat Pistons. They were losing to great teams, not also rans.

3. Considering that the East was really weak in 07, a Jordan led Cavs get to the Finals and IMO don't get swept...

[STATUTORY]

basketball is a sport that naturally privileges players who plays closer to the rim and occupies the frontcourt because of its idosyncracies and structure. Naturally a shooting guard should have lesser impact on the game than a small forward or power forward. The fact that MJ was able to approximate Lebron's stats from the SG position while still allowing another SF to contribute to the team is significant in and of itself.

All stats needed to be weighted by positions when analyzing value added accounting for team composition.

[Sarcastic]

This is because your looking at those players in hindsight and you get to see how their entire career panned out. Guys like Durant, Rose are still in their early 20s. Their teams could win a string of titles and suddenly just because of that their going to be regarded extremely high.

The truth is Durant is already playing at an extremely level. If there wasn't a LeBron in the league he would get more credit.

Nearly 30 PPG on 50/40/90 splits along with 6'11 height and something like a 7'5 wingspan on defense? He is amazing, and you realize just how few guys have done something like that. He is on par with any individual player from the 90s that Jordan had to play against. AND he actually has a superstar teammate in his prime. Something very few of Jordans opponents had.




It has nothing to do with hindsight. I know Durant will be an all time great and will start winning MVPs and take them away from Lebron going forward. But 21, 23, and 24 year old Durant was too young to start winning them. If you look through the history of the award, they don't usually start giving them to players until they are around 25+. There are a few exceptions like Jordan, Wilt, Lebron, Russell, and Rose, but most of them are top 10 all time material. Rose winning was just an anomaly, and never should have happened. It makes the award a complete joke imo.

Lebron's 2013 season was an all time great season as well, and would have won the award in just about any decade, but of the other 3, I think he would only win 1 of them if he were playing in the 1980s. Most of those seasons would be enough to beat out prime Bird's or Magic's years. Lebron's Cavs would not be winning 60+ games in the 1980s East, so that would take him out of the running much of the time. He's benefited quite a bit from playing in the East while it's been at it's lowest point ever compared to the West.

[iamgine]

Here is the difference between LeBron and Jordan.

When Jordans Bulls lack interior defenders and rebounders, they become pretenders(As evidenced by Shaq/Horace shitting on them in 1995 when they had no great interior defenders/rebounders).

When LeBrons Heat lack interior defenders and rebounders, LeBron gets his ass in the post and starts getting 10+ boards and guarding David Wests. Because of LeBrons superior physical abilities he is more versatile and able to effect the game in more ways.

As it stands now LeBron is the only perimeter superstar in NBA History to win with a frontcourt that gets abused on a nightyly basis.

Don't even get me started on who is more valuable to their teams. :oldlol:

1993 Bulls with Jordan: 57-25
1994 Bulls w/o Jordan: 55-27

2010 Cavs with LeBron: 61-21
2011 Cavs w/o LeBron: 19- 63
:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

Jordan only had to be his teams go to scorer....LeBron has to be his teams go to scorer ON TOP of main playmaker/ball handler, top rebounder, top perimeter defender, top post defender. You name it and LeBron is the best on the Heat at it. And hes still racking up rings. :oldlol:

Well the Heat didn't face anything remotely close to Shaq/Horace so that point is not comparable.

Also the winning difference...in that case Ray Allen was more valuable than Jordan since Seattle lost many more games after he left?

[Bandito]

Yeah LeBron might be the best player in NBA History when overcoming adversity.

Lets be real what real challenge did the Bulls have in the 90s when they won their titles?
Wht challlenge did the Heat had? A team with an average age of 24 and another team with an average age of 38?:roll: :roll: :roll:

Mj played against vets like the Lakers led Magic, Sonics, Jazz and the Blazers, all led by legends like Magic, the glove, the maillman and Stockton,and Drexler. All future and/or current HOF.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Because the 2010 CAVS and the 2011 Cavs were the exact same team minus Lebron :facepalm

The 2010 Cavs starting 5 minus Lebron played a combined 0 minutes together in 2011

In 2011 there was no Shaq, no Big Z, no Delonte, no JJ Hickson, no Danny Green, Andy V got hurt for the season 30 games in, Mo was hurt and traded 30 games in, no mike brown

So they lost their starting Center, their 6th man, their back up Center, their back up power forward, lost Andy V 30 games in on top of losing their big man depth they lost their head coach who had turned them into a defensive juggernaut.

Alot of other things happened other than losing Lebron

[Segatti]

basketball is a sport that naturally privileges players who plays closer to the rim and occupies the frontcourt because of its idosyncracies and structure. Naturally a shooting guard should have lesser impact on the game than a small forward or power forward. The fact that MJ was able to approximate Lebron's stats from the SG position while still allowing another SF to contribute to the team is significant in and of itself.

All stats needed to be weighted by positions when analyzing value added accounting for team composition.

This, plus Jordan played much better off the ball, allowing his teammates to play better.

[Scholar]

If Jordan's front court competition in 1995, aka Shaq & Horace, played in today's NBA, they'd be dominating even more than they did in the '90s, so mentioning that LBJ has done more with a lesser front court doesn't mean shit.
As a matter of fact, put Jordan's Bulls in the same playoff match-ups as LBJ's Heat. You think Roy Hibbert, a 7'2" C who can't even average 10 boards, would do as well against them in the ECF?

[guy]

That Cavs team is a mess minus Lebron. I find Jordan is in that similar mold as AI (not saying they're the same player) in which the team needs to have elite role players for him to thrive. Is he capable of carrying this team? Absolutely. But I don't think the team would strive had Jordan have to fill out roles as a facilitator, the primary and only defender, and have to work within the post, not to mention the coaching style.
carry the team? Likely, finals? Longshot.

Ummm Lebron was an average defender and barely even played in the post at the time.

[veilside23]

the only real difference and this is a fact that jordan never lost the finals

its stupid thing to say that a player loses a playoff round who cares about losing the playoffs?

some of the greatest players never even reach the finals for crying out loud..

that stupid argument is for kids that losing a playoff round is equal to losing a ring.

let lebron be one of the greatest in his era... but so far no one has passed MJ ...

[TonyMontana]

Mj played against vets like the Lakers led Magic, Sonics, Jazz and the Blazers, all led by legends like Magic, the glove, the maillman and Stockton,and Drexler. All future and/or current HOF.

-Kareem was retired and the Lakers were old/aged.

-If your going to talk shit about the Spurs team LeBron just beat, the Jazzs two stars (Stockton and Malone) were both 35 years old. :roll: This Jazz team was far from the best. They were much better in the 80s, but never made the Finals because the league was better then.

-Every other team had only one star(Glove, Drexler, Ewing) compared to the Bulls who had two MVP caliber players in MJ/Scottie along with Phil Jackson the greatest coach ever, and Rodman, the GOAT rebounder.

Sorry, but I'm more impressed with LeBron winning the 2012 Finals as the underdog against three future hall of famers in their prime(Durant,Westbrook,Harden)and the 2013 Finals where LeBron beat Duncan(still the best big in basketball), Prime Parker, Greg Popovich coached team despite poor performances from Wade/Bosh for most of the series.


Because the 2010 CAVS and the 2011 Cavs were the exact same team minus Lebron :facepalm

The 2010 Cavs starting 5 minus Lebron played a combined 0 minutes together in 2011

In 2011 there was no Shaq, no Big Z, no Delonte, no JJ Hickson, no Danny Green, Andy V got hurt for the season 30 games in, Mo was hurt and traded 30 games in, no mike brown

So they lost their starting Center, their 6th man, their back up Center, their back up power forward, lost Andy V 30 games in on top of losing their big man depth they lost their head coach who had turned them into a defensive juggernaut.

Alot of other things happened other than losing Lebron

If LeBron stays Cleveland is still the premier contender in the East and winning 50+ games despite all of that. Noone wants to play on a Cleveland team that doesn't have LeBron. Thats the impact this guy has.

[Rose'sACL]

I think Jordan is the GOAT but i also have to say that tonymontana is making some good points unlike most people who are just trolling in this thread because they don't agree with him.

[97 bulls]

I think Jordan is the GOAT but i also have to say that tonymontana is making some good points unlike most people who are just trolling in this thread because they don't agree with him.
What has the pro Jordan side stated that you consider trolling?

[Duncan21formvp]

The difference is Jordan is 24-0 in series with HCA and 14-0 vs 50+ win teams while Lebron is 2-3 in series with HCA vs 50+ win teams. Not to mention one guy brought a franchise a dynasty that had never won anything prior to him arriving while the other joined forces with a guy in his city who won a title as the man already and gave that franchise it's first title and is playing with a guy who performs better than him in the finals as well in Wade. Not to mention one guy was never down 3-2 with HCA while the other guy lost 3 years in a row with it and was down in back to back years 3-2 with HCA.

And using the Cleveland and Chicago is inaccurate. The better example is the 1998 Bulls to the 1999 Bulls and the 2010 Cavs to the 2011 Cavs since neither team was in there prime and also each team lost its top players with Cleveland losing a 3x finals MVP winner as well.

[Jacks3]

The difference is that Jordan can only be somewhat slowed down by absolute GOAT level defenses because his skill-set is perfect. Meanwhile, LeBron can be severely contained or shut down by merely good defenses like the 2011 Mavs or 2013 Spurs, because of his mediocre and extremely inconsistent mid-range/shot and post-game. Also, Jordan was much less ball-dominant and a far better off-ball player, which game him greater portability and ways to attack defenses that LBJ simply doesn't have.

[97 bulls]

Kareem was retired and the Lakers were old/aged.
How old were Magic, Worthy, Scott, Green, Divac, and Perkins?


Sorry, but I'm more impressed with LeBron winning the 2012 Finals as the underdog against three future hall of famers in their prime(Durant,Westbrook,Harden)and the 2013 Finals where LeBron beat Duncan(still the best big in basketball), Prime Parker, Greg Popovich coached team despite poor performances from Wade/Bosh for most of the series.
What was so impressive about the Heats run? In 2012, they beat an old Boston Celtic team, then an inexperienced and green OKC Thunder squad. Then in 2013, they beat an the Bulls without their best player in Derrick Rose, needed seven games to dispatch the Pacers who didnt have their best player in Danny Granger, then needed seven games to beat an old Spurs squad.

Its posts like the one I just responded to that has you marked as a troll and threatening being banned.

[Dionysus]

What was so impressive about the Heats run? In 2012, they beat an old Boston Celtic team, then an inexperienced and green OKC Thunder squad. Then in 2013, they beat an the Bulls without their best player in Derrick Rose, needed seven games to dispatch the Pacers who didnt have their best player in Danny Granger, then needed seven games to beat an old Spurs squad.

Its posts like the one I just responded to that has you marked as a troll and threatening being banned.

How can you speak of trolls and then make an insecure troll post like this?

That Celtic team was the number 2 defensive team in The NBA, allowed the 2nd fewest points in the league anchored by Kevin Garnett. Along with the league leader in assist Rondon and solid defensive player himself.

And after losing 3 straight games to the mighty Celtics LeBron comes back and delivers a game that only Legends are made off: 45pts 15reb 5ast on 73% fg while Wade was complete trash as his second best player shooting 35% fg and 17pts. LeBron single handedly won this game vs The 2nd best defensive team in the league.


You also try and downplay the Thunder? Claiming inexperience? :oldlol: Please, the most laughable excuse known to man, as if this team forgot how to play basketball in the NBA just because its the Finals. Truth is LeBron owned 2 top 10 players in Durant and Westbrook who just came off 3 dominating series wins against the Likes of a defending Champion Dirk led squad in the Mavs, then beat a Kobe/Gasol led known winners Lakers team, and then a known winner Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Greg Popovic led Spurs! Where was the "inexperienced" comments for those wins huh? None because they were top in their conference and expected to win. So after defeating those opponents to get to the finals, how are they all of a sudden inexperienced??

Same with The Spurs, they may have been old, but they were good. It's why they breezed through everyones young up and coming darling Grizzlies and Warriors and had the defensive system to contain LeBron for alot if the series untill LeBron showed his greatness in game 6 (headband game) and game 7 (close out game domination) against one of the greatest franchises of an era.

Sorry Jordan stan, you are the one trolling.:no:

[kNicKz]

How can you speak of trolls and then make an insecure troll post like this?

That Celtic team was the number 2 defensive team in The NBA, allowed the 2nd fewest points in the league anchored by Kevin Garnett. Along with the league leader in assist Rondon and solid defensive player himself.

And after losing 3 straight games to the mighty Celtics LeBron comes back and delivers a game that only Legends are made off: 45pts 15reb 5ast on 73% fg while Wade was complete trash as his second best player shooting 35% fg and 17pts. LeBron single handedly won this game vs The 2nd best defensive team in the league.


You also try and downplay the Thunder? Claiming inexperience? :oldlol: Please, the most laughable excuse known to man, as if this team forgot how to play basketball in the NBA just because its the Finals. Truth is LeBron owned 2 top 10 players in Durant and Westbrook who just came off 3 dominating series wins against the Likes of a defending Champion Dirk led squad in the Mavs, then beat a Kobe/Gasol led known winners Lakers team, and then a known winner Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Greg Popovic led Spurs! Where was the "inexperienced" comments for those wins huh? None because they were top in their conference and expected to win. So after defeating those opponents to get to the finals, how are they all of a sudden inexperienced??

Same with The Spurs, they may have been old, but they were good. It's why they breezed through everyones young up and coming darling Grizzlies and Warriors and had the defensive system to contain LeBron for alot if the series untill LeBron showed his greatness in game 6 (headband game) and game 7 (close out game domination) against one of the greatest franchises of an era.

Sorry Jordan stan, you are the one trolling.:no:

Your desperation to feel like you are witnessing something "jordanesque" is one of the cutest things I have ever seen. Talking about a "headband game" :roll: A headband being removed from his head is now being put as a "flu game" like scenario :roll:

****ing classic

I'm grateful that I grew up watching the GOAT , nothing will ever come close. Sorry man

[Dionysus]

Your desperation to feel like you are witnessing something "jordanesque" is one of the cutest things I have ever seen. Talking about a "headband game" :roll: A headband being removed from his head is now being put as a "flu game" like scenario :roll:

****ing classic

I'm grateful that I grew up watching the GOAT , nothing will ever come close. Sorry man

This is how they respond when they have no solution for the ether:lol :lol :lol

Also, we are not witnessing anything Jordan-esque (being a overrated shotjacker surrounded by stacked teams and GOAT coach). This is LeBron-Esque/In the moment greatness.

[AceManIII]

:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

[kNicKz]

This is how they respond when they have no solution for the ether:lol :lol :lol

Also, we are not witnessing anything Jordan-esque (being a overrated shotjacker surrounded by stacked teams and GOAT coach). This is LeBron-Esque/In the moment greatness.

What you don't understand is that you are applying a Jordan mold to everything you say about Lebron, then you call out people "brainwashed by Jordan."

Continue, this is somewhat entertaining...

jk, you are an awful poster and I hope you get banned

[funnystuff]

What you don't understand is that you are applying a Jordan mold to everything you say about Lebron, then you call out people "brainwashed by Jordan."

Continue, this is somewhat entertaining...

jk, you are an awful poster and I hope you get banned
Melo is an overrated chucker who will never be a winner. Sorry.

[nathanjizzle]

is this thread even real? are lebron stans trying to compare him to jordan :roll: did they not watch the finals in 2011 and 2013?

if anyone wants to determine how good jordan is, watch the last 5 minutes of game 6 against utah in 98. then compare that to lebrons performance and you will see a significant difference.

no trolling or bias, lebron isnt on jordans level, will never be. neither is kobe, nor rose, nor anyone in the league.

[tazb]

Lebron James age 28, 10 seasons, 765 games
Michael Jordan age 28, 8 seasons, 589 games

http://i41.tinypic.com/6y0dut.jpg

:facepalm. So you're telling me if Jordan came into the league straight out of high-school he would be winning MVPs/rings/championships? Everyone already knows Jordan wouldn't have 6 rings if Bird and Magic hadn't retired early.

[nathanjizzle]

:facepalm. So you're telling me if Jordan came into the league straight out of high-school he would be winning MVPs/rings/championships? Everyone already knows Jordan wouldn't have 6 rings if Bird and Magic hadn't retired early.

and lebron wouldnt have 2 mvps, 2 finals mvps, and 2 championships if rose wasnt out for 2 years :roll:

[tazb]

and lebron wouldnt have 2 mvps, 2 finals mvps, and 2 championships if rose wasnt out for 2 years :roll:

Yea cause a healthy/peak Rose with arguably the best front court, best bench and the best coach in the NBA stopped him before, right.

[nathanjizzle]

Yea cause a healthy/peak Rose with arguably the best front court, best bench and the best coach in the NBA stopped him before, right.

peak rose at age 22? :roll: are you stupid? :roll: with nobody on the team with deep playoff experience with a first year coach and first year assembled team. the heat didnt win in there first year and heat fans excuse was it was because it was there first year togetehr but it doesnt apply to the bulls. :roll:

[funnystuff]

and lebron wouldnt have 2 mvps, 2 finals mvps, and 2 championships if rose wasnt out for 2 years :roll:
Are you fking retarded? Lebron held "MVP" Rose to 6% percent shooting in 2011. You must be retarded. I cant waitttt until i get to see Rose choke again this season. :oldlol:

[PickernRoller]

Yea cause a healthy/peak Rose with arguably the best front court, best bench and the best coach in the NBA stopped him before, right.

http://oi43.tinypic.com/29l1gr9.jpg

[Sarcastic]

LeBron couldn't win MVPs in the 80s. 2000s was easiest decade ever to win. Nash got 2, Dirk got 1, Rose got 1. None of them stand a chance in 80s.

[Dionysus]

is this thread even real? are lebron stans trying to compare him to jordan :roll: did they not watch the finals in 2011 and 2013?

if anyone wants to determine how good jordan is, watch the last 5 minutes of game 6 against utah in 98. then compare that to lebrons performance and you will see a significant difference.



Please, LeBron's finals game 7 and his late game heroics vs Pistons in07'>>>>Jordans last 5 min vs Utah "old washed up" Jazz.

[kNicKz]

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/0813/oly_g_jamesbronze_gb1_400.jpg

vs.

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1264927.1360904496!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/gallery_635/michael-jordan-career-photos.jpg

[kNicKz]

Please, LeBron's finals game 7 and his late game heroics vs Pistons in07'>>>>Jordans last 5 min vs Utah "old washed up" Jazz.

What is a game 7?

[Blue&Orange]

Takes paycut to make it easy - check
Finds two other superstars willing to take a paycut to be his lapdog - check
The competition left, getting injured left and right - check
Opposition Coaches gifting him wins with head scratching mistakes - check
Plays in one of the the shittiest divisions ever hence getting homecourt - check
Weak defensive rules era - check
No centers era - check
Carried by the refs in 2012 - check
Carried by teammates while sitting on the bench with "cramps" after air balling - check
Faces youngest team ever in the finals - check
Faces oldest team ever in the finals - check
Bail out by Mike Miller, Battier and Ray Allen - check
Being carried by wade while scoring only in garbage time - check
Can't wait until it happens to LEbron what is happening to Kobe, going from GOAT contender to sliding out of the top10.

Hope colossal retard Tonymontana is around by then.


Yes cavs team was awful just because Lebron left :roll:

[MaxFly]

:facepalm. So you're telling me if Jordan came into the league straight out of high-school he would be winning MVPs/rings/championships? Everyone already knows Jordan wouldn't have 6 rings if Bird and Magic hadn't retired early.

I don't think we can state that as fact, nor do I think "everyone knows" it or agrees.

[CelticBaller]

http://oi43.tinypic.com/29l1gr9.jpg
:lol

[TheMan]

That shut up tazb rather quick:oldlol: