Lebron is as GOAT-legitimate as any, promptly deal with it

[OldSkoolball#52]

Before the days Tony Kornheiser dumbed down the sportsviewing public with his tired, lazy, ignorant rings = pecking order "analysis" (which he falls back on because he doesnt know a thing about basketball), fans and media alike had no problem dubbing guys like Oscar or Wilt the greatest players they had ever seen. There were those who had no problem crowing Bird before he won "x number of rings" and the same was true of Michael Jordan.

The GOAT bball player is of course subjective. There is a general tier of players who can REALISTICALLY be considered. Especially if your criteria is how good they were relative to their own era, and you're intelligent enough to use analysis of their game, rather than a resume of media awards and team achievements.

Guys like MJ, Shaq, Kareem, Bird, Lebron, Duncan, Magic, Wilt, Oscar, West could be considered.

But the idea that you have to "wait" for a player to reach "x number of rings" only means you havent got the ability to articulate his merit anyway, and you are waiting on something that will give you a simpler way to argue since you arent up for anything complex.

Lebron is not the late game finisher on the level that Jordan was. But he is a better defensive player. He doesnt have the midrange game Jordan did. But he shoots threes better. Lebron is an absolute monsta and everyone knows it. He is neck and neck with Jordan as a player. The rings thing is for retards. Lebron did more with bad teams early in his career than Jordan did. Doesnt take away from Jordan. Jordan piled titles up at the end of his career. Doesnt take away from Lebron.

You could have a legit debate between Lebron and anyone - Kareem, Magic, Larry etc. and have at LEAST an equal case for James.

Lebron James has reached a level as a PLAYER than rivals what anyone has ever done. Ladies and gents, lets welcome him to the GOAT list :applause: :applause: :applause:

[9erempiree]

In b4 delete.


#attentionwhore #dumb #whereskobe

[OldSkoolball#52]

#whereskobe

#CheckbeneathLebron

#NotaGOAT

#BizzywithRape

[TonyMontana]

The only way to properly rank these players is to watch them. Once you compare the film(actual gameplay, not a highlight video), you realize LeBron is on par with anyone in NBA History and blows many of these overrated legends out of the water.


#whereskobe

#afterlebron

[FiveRings]

Before the days Tony Kornheiser dumbed down the sportsviewing public with his tired, lazy, ignorant rings = pecking order "analysis" (which he falls back on because he doesnt know a thing about basketball), fans and media alike had no problem dubbing guys like Oscar or Wilt the greatest players they had ever seen. There were those who had no problem crowing Bird before he won "x number of rings" and the same was true of Michael Jordan.

The GOAT bball player is of course subjective. There is a general tier of players who can REALISTICALLY be considered. Especially if your criteria is how good they were relative to their own era, and you're intelligent enough to use analysis of their game, rather than a resume of media awards and team achievements.

Guys like MJ, Shaq, Kareem, Bird, Lebron, Duncan, Magic, Wilt, Oscar, West could be considered.

But the idea that you have to "wait" for a player to reach "x number of rings" only means you havent got the ability to articulate his merit anyway, and you are waiting on something that will give you a simpler way to argue since you arent up for anything complex.

Lebron is not the late game finisher on the level that Jordan was. But he is a better defensive player. He doesnt have the midrange game Jordan did. But he shoots threes better. Lebron is an absolute monsta and everyone knows it. He is neck and neck with Jordan as a player. The rings thing is for retards. Lebron did more with bad teams early in his career than Jordan did. Doesnt take away from Jordan. Jordan piled titles up at the end of his career. Doesnt take away from Lebron.

You could have a legit debate between Lebron and anyone - Kareem, Magic, Larry etc. and have at LEAST an equal case for James.

Lebron James has reached a level as a PLAYER than rivals what anyone has ever done. Ladies and gents, lets welcome him to the GOAT list :applause: :applause: :applause:
Lebron is one of the GOATs for sure. He's got a great chance of passing Kobe, Shaq, Duncan etc (I won't comment on Magic, Bird or anyone before them since I wasn't watching ball yet when they were playnig) but MJ was better than him as a player by a good margin.

Why throw out accolades OlkSkoolball? When did MJ ever pull a 2011? When did MJ ever lose when his team was heavy favourites like the Heat were over the Mavs? These things really do matter and can't just be completely ignored. What about Lebron shooting 35% in the NBA Finals he was in before that? Why doesn't this stuff count? It's extremely hard to imagine Jordan playing as bad as Lebron did in those two Finals.

If we throw out accomplishments, I still don't see any case for Lebron. Jordan was better at almost everything. Lebron I'd say is better at finding open 3 point shooters and throwing up oops or long passes, but that's about it. Jordan was DPOY. I don't think Lebron is on his level defensively, though he is a very good defender.

I'm sorry, but I just can't see prime Jordan on the Bulls or the current Heat needing 7 games to take out an old Duncan, old Ginobili, and an injured Parker. Jordan would sweep or take it in 5, and he sure wouldn't let a guy like Boris Diaw's defense bother him.

[zoom17]

Lebron is one of the GOATs for sure. He's got a great chance of passing Kobe, Shaq, Duncan etc (I won't comment on Magic, Bird or anyone before them since I wasn't watching ball yet when they were playnig) but MJ was better than him as a player by a good margin.

Why throw out accolades OlkSkoolball? When did MJ ever pull a 2011? When did MJ ever lose when his team was heavy favourites like the Heat were over the Mavs? These things really do matter and can't just be completely ignored. What about Lebron shooting 35% in the NBA Finals he was in before that? Why doesn't this stuff count? It's extremely hard to imagine Jordan playing as bad as Lebron did in those two Finals.

If we throw out accomplishments, I still don't see any case for Lebron. Jordan was better at almost everything. Lebron I'd say is better at finding open 3 point shooters and throwing up oops or long passes, but that's about it. Jordan was DPOY. I don't think Lebron is on his level defensively, though he is a very good defender.

I'm sorry, but I just can't see prime Jordan on the Bulls or the current Heat needing 7 games to take out an old Duncan, old Ginobili, and an injured Parker. Jordan would sweep or take it in 5, and he sure wouldn't let a guy like Boris Diaw's defense bother him.

Miley is a ugly **** with no ass:roll: :roll: :roll:

[FiveRings]

Miley is a ugly **** with no ass:roll: :roll: :roll:
And? If you want to discuss Miley, there are 6 threads about her on the first page in the Off Topic forum.

I'm no Lebron hater. I'm one of the more rational Laker fans on the board, and I respect the opinion that Lebron is as good as or better than my favourite player. He's not MJ though. There's no shame in not being MJ. Failures coming in as the favourite team matter. Jordan would not have lost to the Mavs or the 04 Pistons. He was too f*cking good.

[longtime lurker]

Add another troll to the list that needs a permanent ban.

[jlip]

Before the days Tony Kornheiser dumbed down the sportsviewing public with his tired, lazy, ignorant rings = pecking order "analysis" (which he falls back on because he doesnt know a thing about basketball),

I've heard Kornheiser say multiple times that he feels that Magic was the GOAT, and every time he's said so it had nothing to do with rings. He always brought of his versatility.

[gts]

When you start putting active players in the "GOAT" discussion ask yourself if he quit today and never played again would he be in the GOAT discussion.

The answer for Lebron at this time is no, he wouldn't be in the GOAT discussion.

This thread is probably about 5 years early.

[Chrono90]

Most ppl are assuming he's going to continue this high level of play till his career ends.

1) After a major injury, can he still play the same?

2) When he age and can't out run or out jump his defender, can he still be effective? Can his jumpshot save his life?

[secund2nun]

Most ppl are assuming he's going to continue this high level of play till his career ends.

1) After a major injury, can he still play the same?

2) When he age and can't out run or out jump his defender, can he still be effective? Can his jumpshot save his life?

He never gets injured. He looks like he maybe one of those durable athletes like Manning or Stockton.

As he ages his athleticism will go down, but he keeps himself in great shape, avoids injuries, watches his diet so he will still be one of the more athletic players SF/PFs in the league even when he is old.

I envision him as a all around versatile point PF when he gets older like a older Magic Johnson (without the rust) as opposed to his point SF role of today. His size and passing skills will never go away. His post game will continue to expand over the next years. Also for a PF he would have a sick outside game.

[Fudge]

:roll: :roll:

Stans stay stannin' eh, Stanley?

[bdreason]

He's gonna need at least 4 more titles and 4 more Finals MVP's to even enter the conversation as GOAT. Even if he manages to gather those accolades, his playoff/finals performances are going to have to be far more consistent to challenge MJ or Kareem for the title.

[bdreason]

His post game will continue to expand over the next years.


This will be the biggest deciding factor for LeBron as he ages. I think he can do it, but he hasn't really developed an efficient post game yet.

[redrich2000]

It's not just rings, its the ability to consistently perform at all-time elite levels when it matters most, i.e. the finals. That's somewhat unfair because individual players need good teams to get there, but that's the way it is in the NBA. And on that count LeBron is still WELL short of the top few in the conversation.

Those of you who are huge LeBron fans, you are actually cheapening his legacy by not giving him the chance to truly prove whether he is in the same category as the greats. If you just call him GOAT because you like him, you cheapen the concept of GOAT and Lebron's place in the conversation. Enjoy the ride, but let him prove whether he really has got it.

[Flash31]

Before the days Tony Kornheiser dumbed down the sportsviewing public with his tired, lazy, ignorant rings = pecking order "analysis" (which he falls back on because he doesnt know a thing about basketball), fans and media alike had no problem dubbing guys like Oscar or Wilt the greatest players they had ever seen. There were those who had no problem crowing Bird before he won "x number of rings" and the same was true of Michael Jordan.

The GOAT bball player is of course subjective. There is a general tier of players who can REALISTICALLY be considered. Especially if your criteria is how good they were relative to their own era, and you're intelligent enough to use analysis of their game, rather than a resume of media awards and team achievements.

Guys like MJ, Shaq, Kareem, Bird, Lebron, Duncan, Magic, Wilt, Oscar, West could be considered.

But the idea that you have to "wait" for a player to reach "x number of rings" only means you havent got the ability to articulate his merit anyway, and you are waiting on something that will give you a simpler way to argue since you arent up for anything complex.

Lebron is not the late game finisher on the level that Jordan was. But he is a better defensive player. He doesnt have the midrange game Jordan did. But he shoots threes better. Lebron is an absolute monsta and everyone knows it. He is neck and neck with Jordan as a player. The rings thing is for retards. Lebron did more with bad teams early in his career than Jordan did. Doesnt take away from Jordan. Jordan piled titles up at the end of his career. Doesnt take away from Lebron.

You could have a legit debate between Lebron and anyone - Kareem, Magic, Larry etc. and have at LEAST an equal case for James.

Lebron James has reached a level as a PLAYER than rivals what anyone has ever done. Ladies and gents, lets welcome him to the GOAT list :applause: :applause: :applause:



Thats like saying
Durant,Len Bias,Drazen Petrovic
are some of the GOAT

With all due respect to those two gone
They were great,but havent had long enough career to deem them one of goat

and Durant if he retired now would be HOF material but
bc of his length of career and accomplishments wouldnt be GOAT


LeBrons great sure,BUT at this moment
His resume and stats dont equal or come close to GOAT

Itll be like imagining Magic retiring after the Hiv news and staying retired
Hell be up there in rank but wouldnt be as high up on lists if he stayed retired
Some people consider him top 3,most top 5
if he stayed retired more than likely Shaq wouldve taken his spot or Kobe


LeBrons great,not there yet,
2 Rings and stats even then dont stack up to others with 2 rings and stats

Wilt,West,Hakeem trump him in accomplishments and Wilt owns most of the records

People use rings simply bc it makes it easier

Whos better Duncan,Barkley,K Malone?
Same Thing

[diamenz]

It's not just rings, its the ability to consistently perform at all-time elite levels when it matters most, i.e. the finals. That's somewhat unfair because individual players need good teams to get there, but that's the way it is in the NBA. And on that count LeBron is still WELL short of the top few in the conversation.

Those of you who are huge LeBron fans, you are actually cheapening his legacy by not giving him the chance to truly prove whether he is in the same category as the greats. If you just call him GOAT because you like him, you cheapen the concept of GOAT and Lebron's place in the conversation. Enjoy the ride, but let him prove whether he really has got it.

:cheers: great post.

[Sarcastic]

Lebron is definitely one of the GOATs, but the thing is that Jordan set the bar almost too high for anyone to achieve. Jordan's the GOAT. Deal with it.

[BoutPractice]

Not at this moment, but at the end of his career he might have an argument that seems designed for him specifically: that no non-center achieved more while doing so much, so consistently, for their team (scoring, passing, rebounding, defense against multiple positions, leadership...). Pretty much what might have happened if Oscar had won multiple rings and hadn't had to compete with dominant centers.

It's that combination of success and reputation as a one-man wrecking crew that will make LeBron's career, which is ironic, considering that it's the very thing LeBron probably wanted to get away from by going to Miami.

[sdot_thadon]

Great thread op, if only for your perspective. It's true no other "goat" had to wait for some arbitrary ring or accolade count to be considered in the mix. This is exclusive to Lebron, and while I don't think he is quite there yet he's not far off now. The main problem with goat debates is we all value different things in our observations, as well as being the reason these debates live forever. I do believe that as a player Lebron is up there with anyone in nba history, and he's around mid tier as far as accomplishments go but those will fill out in the next several years I'd guess. See most guys here are too young to remember that Mj's goat hype started early as well, it only happens with special guys.

[Doranku]

Interesting that you bring up rings, OP, because LeBron could win 10 rings and he still wouldn't be better than Jordan because he's a frontrunning lil' bitch who joined up with the 2nd best player in the league in his prime, cost said 2nd best player a finals MVP award by choking and embarrassing himself, and then turned him into a role player.

#facts

LeBron sat out 6 games with a sprained pinkie on his left hand. MJ the Gawd dropped 38 on the road in the finals with the flu. :oldlol: @ the thought of comparing them.

[HurricaneKid]

Interesting facts:

All three seasons LeBron has been on the Heat Miami has been outscored without him on the floor. Yet they have managed to make it to the Finals all three years and win it twice.

In 08/09 The Cavs were an NBA best 66-16, one of the best records in NBA history. Without LeBron on the floor they were -7.3pts/48 min. The last place team in the East was the 19-63 Wizards with -7.4/48. The second worst team in the East was the Knicks and they were -2.6. This is also they year he broke the all-time WS/48 record in the playoffs.

Take MJ off Chicago and they were comfortably one of the best teams in the league (93/94). In fact they were only 3 games out of the 2nd best record in the entire league and the #1 team lost in the first round. They outscored the Knicks in their playoff series by >1.1ppg but lost several close games.

[DCL]

we all know how great of talent lebron is, but he's got some fishy "did he just give up this game, where the hell is he??" type of performances from the past, so those are blemishes on lebron's resume. but if you are vying for GOAT, you cannot have those at all because the current GOAT never had those.

but shit, even this year, prime lebron only dropped like 15 points or whatever in one of the games in the finals.

the current GOAT never performed like that in the finals. that would had been an extraordinary and unimaginable event. matter of fact, when it came to finals, the current GOAT only knew how to play one way, and that's bringing his A+ game. there were no B+ games, B- games, or C games. f--k that shit. you need straight A's if you want to be GOAT.

it is too early right now to bring the "chosen one" into GOAT discussion. but if he goes nuts and wins not 6, not 7, not 8 as alpha dog.... okay, we got a serious challenger to shut guys up.

but now? hells no.

[tpols]

No he doesn't. Not yet.

[ILLsmak]

we all know how great of talent lebron is, but he's got some fishy "did he just give up this game, where the hell is he??" type of performances from the past, so those are blemishes on lebron's resume. but if you are vying for GOAT, you cannot have those at all because the current GOAT never had those.

but shit, even this year, prime lebron only dropped like 15 points or whatever in one of the games in the finals.

the current GOAT never performed like that in the finals. that would had been an extraordinary and unimaginable event. matter of fact, when it came to finals, the current GOAT only knew how to play one way, and that's bringing his A+ game. there were no B+ games, B- games, or C games. f--k that shit. you need straight A's if you want to be GOAT.

it is too early right now to bring the "chosen one" into GOAT discussion. but if he goes nuts and wins not 6, not 7, not 8 as alpha dog.... okay, we got a serious challenger to shut guys up.

but now? hells no.

Every player has a bad game, but the question is how they handle it.

-Smak

[DCL]

Every player has a bad game, but the question is how they handle it.

-Smak

of course, every player has a bad game here and there....

but not in the finals.

that's GOAT measurement territory because the current GOAT already established the bar.

when the stakes are high, you gotta bring your best MVP dominance. anything less is unacceptable. that's the bar for GOAT. blame the current GOAT for making the bar so high.

[Le Shaqtus]

Interesting that you bring up rings, OP, because LeBron could win 10 rings and he still wouldn't be better than Jordan because he's a frontrunning lil' bitch who joined up with the 2nd best player in the league in his prime, cost said 2nd best player a finals MVP award by choking and embarrassing himself, and then turned him into a role player.

#facts

LeBron sat out 6 games with a sprained pinkie on his left hand. MJ the Gawd dropped 38 on the road in the finals with the flu. :oldlol: @ the thought of comparing them.

But LeBron had the headband game :cry:

[Jailblazers7]

This will be the biggest deciding factor for LeBron as he ages. I think he can do it, but he hasn't really developed an efficient post game yet.

I really hope he does because it will be incredibly fun to watch. Lebron is such a good passer that watching him as a 34-35 year old star playing out of the high post would be a treat. Not sure I see it happening tho. His balance on that turnaround jumper just isn't consistent enough right now.

[Sarcastic]

Interesting facts:

All three seasons LeBron has been on the Heat Miami has been outscored without him on the floor. Yet they have managed to make it to the Finals all three years and win it twice.

In 08/09 The Cavs were an NBA best 66-16, one of the best records in NBA history. Without LeBron on the floor they were -7.3pts/48 min. The last place team in the East was the 19-63 Wizards with -7.4/48. The second worst team in the East was the Knicks and they were -2.6. This is also they year he broke the all-time WS/48 record in the playoffs.

Take MJ off Chicago and they were comfortably one of the best teams in the league (93/94). In fact they were only 3 games out of the 2nd best record in the entire league and the #1 team lost in the first round. They outscored the Knicks in their playoff series by >1.1ppg but lost several close games.


There is a lot of context left out of these "facts", specifically that 1994 Bulls were left mostly intact with Phil Jackson coaching the team, whereas when Lebron left Cleveland he got Mike Brown "killed" or fired from the team, and they were starting over. They actually started off the year not too bad, but it was when the injuries started piling up that they went into full tank mode.

It's also pretty convenient that the 1995 Bulls season is never brought up, and the tailspin that they started going down. They were pretty much begging Jordan to come back and save them.

[All Net]

Out of all the players playing sure...what Lebron in the next 3-4 years will decide it. As mentioned he must keep improving his post game. He should go down a top 5-6 but we will see.

[DCL]

this sentence should summarize it all: lebron is not worthy of any GOAT discussions right now, but if there's any player with the potential to be in GOAT dicussion, it's lebron.

he's just entered his prime for a couple years. but how will he perform between now and until he's 35?

that story hasn't been written yet.

[bukowski81]

Before the days Tony Kornheiser dumbed down the sportsviewing public with his tired, lazy, ignorant rings = pecking order "analysis" (which he falls back on because he doesnt know a thing about basketball), fans and media alike had no problem dubbing guys like Oscar or Wilt the greatest players they had ever seen. There were those who had no problem crowing Bird before he won "x number of rings" and the same was true of Michael Jordan.

The GOAT bball player is of course subjective. There is a general tier of players who can REALISTICALLY be considered. Especially if your criteria is how good they were relative to their own era, and you're intelligent enough to use analysis of their game, rather than a resume of media awards and team achievements.

Guys like MJ, Shaq, Kareem, Bird, Lebron, Duncan, Magic, Wilt, Oscar, West could be considered.

But the idea that you have to "wait" for a player to reach "x number of rings" only means you havent got the ability to articulate his merit anyway, and you are waiting on something that will give you a simpler way to argue since you arent up for anything complex.

Lebron is not the late game finisher on the level that Jordan was. But he is a better defensive player. He doesnt have the midrange game Jordan did. But he shoots threes better. Lebron is an absolute monsta and everyone knows it. He is neck and neck with Jordan as a player. The rings thing is for retards. Lebron did more with bad teams early in his career than Jordan did. Doesnt take away from Jordan. Jordan piled titles up at the end of his career. Doesnt take away from Lebron.

You could have a legit debate between Lebron and anyone - Kareem, Magic, Larry etc. and have at LEAST an equal case for James.

Lebron James has reached a level as a PLAYER than rivals what anyone has ever done. Ladies and gents, lets welcome him to the GOAT list :applause: :applause: :applause:


Of course there is much more than just winning rings, but Rings are important because if you are not able to lead your team to achieve the ultimate objective you can not be considered the GOAT, no matter how good your games look in a paper sheet.

[sdot_thadon]

of course, every player has a bad game here and there....

but not in the finals.

that's GOAT measurement territory because the current GOAT already established the bar.

when the stakes are high, you gotta bring your best MVP dominance. anything less is unacceptable. that's the bar for GOAT. blame the current GOAT for making the bar so high.
Bird had a terrible finals
Magic had the tragic Johnson series
Wilt always played way below his averages in the playoffs
Kobe had a bad finals
Bill Russell had a dumb turnover just before the Havlicek steal
Mj lost before the finals plenty of times. No one remembers the nick anderson steal with the game on the line?
Duncan even had a slight choke when he missed the point blank shot guarded by Battier and tip in game 7 this year.

All greats have bad games/series/moments.

[DJ Leon Smith]

Bird had a terrible finals
Magic had the tragic Johnson series
Wilt always played way below his averages in the playoffs
Kobe had a bad finals
Bill Russell had a dumb turnover just before the Havlicek steal
Mj lost before the finals plenty of times. No one remembers the nick anderson steal with the game on the line?
Duncan even had a slight choke when he missed the point blank shot guarded by Battier and tip in game 7 this year.

All greats have bad games/series/moments.

The only difference is LeBron had a historically bad NBA Finals and his effort was called into question (which is almost unheard of in a franchise player that deep into the playoffs, let alone a GOAT candidate). There's a difference between shooting badly or having an ill-timed turnover and having people think "does he even care?" while watching you play on the biggest stage.

[HurricaneKid]

There is a lot of context left out of these "facts", specifically that 1994 Bulls were left mostly intact with Phil Jackson coaching the team, whereas when Lebron left Cleveland he got Mike Brown "killed" or fired from the team, and they were starting over. They actually started off the year not too bad, but it was when the injuries started piling up that they went into full tank mode.

It's also pretty convenient that the 1995 Bulls season is never brought up, and the tailspin that they started going down. They were pretty much begging Jordan to come back and save them.

Oh, for the record I really don't think he is close to MJ at this point. I just find the points curious. For all the talk of him joining a stacked team they really aren't stacked without him; certainly not as stacked as the Bulls were without MJ.

And the stats I was bringing up were the Cavs THAT season, not after he left. When LeBron was on the bench (resting/out) in 08-09 they were essentially among the worst teams in the league. And its not like its that small a sample size.

And the 1995 Bulls "tailspin" season where they were 47-35? Thats terrible?? They had the second best point differential in the East that year at +4.8ppg. Thats no tailspin.

Conversely, LeBron has NEVER been on a team that outscored their oppostion when he was off the floor. Just think about that. MJs team was a basket away from likely playing for the title, and they had the second best pt diff in the East the following year and even in LeBron's best season (record wise) his team played to a level equal to the worst team in the league when he wasn't in. MJ had so much more help its laughable to suggest otherwise.

Again, FTR, I don't think LeBron has passed MJ. I'm just pointing out that there is an argument to be made that he is on that path.

[DJ Leon Smith]

And the 1995 Bulls "tailspin" season where they were 47-35? Thats terrible??

The Bulls were .500 when Jordan came back in 1995.

[HurricaneKid]

The Bulls were .500 when Jordan came back in 1995.

They were 3 games over .500 with a point differential of +4.26/gm.

Their SRS was #5 in the NBA. Their point differential put them, before MJ came back, at #2 in the east. And when he came back they lost to #1. And he was solely responsible for the play that cost them the series.

I am a grown man who has a framed poster of MJ on his wall. I have no other sports prints/posters anywhere. I REVERE him. I really don't want to be put in the same column as those who are actually arguing that LeBron is better. I don't think he is. I am just attempting to point out that MJ was not infallible nor is his legacy impossible to match.

[chazzy]

Why relevance does the record of a 3peat supporting cast have in comparison to the record of an injury riddled 2nd round exit supporting cast?

[zoom17]

Why relevance does the record of a 3peat supporting cast have in comparison to the record of an injury riddled 2nd round exit supporting cast?

Heat about to 3-peat:cheers:

[HurricaneKid]

Why relevance does the record of a 3peat supporting cast have in comparison to the record of an injury riddled 2nd round exit supporting cast?

I can't find on/off stats for Jordan (outside of his Wizards years). So it is the only way to compare his casts to LeBron's.

LeBron has never been on a team that played the opposition evenly without him on the team. MJs team almost got to the Finals without him.

It is entirely relevant in comparing the two of them.

[pegasus]

He absolutely has no case for GOAT, unless he gets a heart transplant, and wins at least 5 more rings against a better and healthier competition than he has faced in his two bogus title runs. I can name at least 5 current superstars that would have won against those teams with the help he had.

[zoom17]

He absolutely has no case for GOAT, unless he gets a heart transplant, and wins at least 5 more rings against a better and healthier competition than he has faced in his two bogus title runs. I can name at least 5 current superstars that would have won against those teams with the help he had.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view2/3597765/dave-chappelle-power-deuce-o.gif

[funnystuff]

Lebron is one of the GOATs for sure. He's got a great chance of passing Kobe, Shaq, Duncan etc (I won't comment on Magic, Bird or anyone before them since I wasn't watching ball yet when they were playnig) but MJ was better than him as a player by a good margin.

Why throw out accolades OlkSkoolball? When did MJ ever pull a 2011? When did MJ ever lose when his team was heavy favourites like the Heat were over the Mavs? These things really do matter and can't just be completely ignored. What about Lebron shooting 35% in the NBA Finals he was in before that? Why doesn't this stuff count? It's extremely hard to imagine Jordan playing as bad as Lebron did in those two Finals.

If we throw out accomplishments, I still don't see any case for Lebron. Jordan was better at almost everything. Lebron I'd say is better at finding open 3 point shooters and throwing up oops or long passes, but that's about it. Jordan was DPOY. I don't think Lebron is on his level defensively, though he is a very good defender.

I'm sorry, but I just can't see prime Jordan on the Bulls or the current Heat needing 7 games to take out an old Duncan, old Ginobili, and an injured Parker. Jordan would sweep or take it in 5, and he sure wouldn't let a guy like Boris Diaw's defense bother him.
You say that as if Lebron hasnt already passed Kobe. (Which he has)

[longtime lurker]

I can't find on/off stats for Jordan (outside of his Wizards years). So it is the only way to compare his casts to LeBron's.

LeBron has never been on a team that played the opposition evenly without him on the team. MJs team almost got to the Finals without him.

It is entirely relevant in comparing the two of them.

Getting out of the 2nd round is not almost getting to the finals :rolleyes:

[sdot_thadon]

The only difference is LeBron had a historically bad NBA Finals and his effort was called into question (which is almost unheard of in a franchise player that deep into the playoffs, let alone a GOAT candidate). There's a difference between shooting badly or having an ill-timed turnover and having people think "does he even care?" while watching you play on the biggest stage.
True, terrible series no doubt. With the context around though, I feel it's a bit overblown. The way Dallas had game planned for him, the back ground pressure. Wade having a favorable matchup early in the series, and Lebron overdoing maybe what Kobe should have done in 04. Let his teammate feast on the weaker matchup. Hindsight being 20/20 he choked or had a mental breakdown however you see it. There was abnormal circumstance in the series for him though.

[SilkkTheShocker]

:roll: :roll:

Stans stay stannin' eh, Stanley?

I have literally never seen you say anything remotely funny or clever. You might be trying too hard.

[Trollsmasher]

I have literally never seen you say anything remotely funny or clever. You might be trying too hard.
I agree

[nathanjizzle]

its sad how these lebron youngsters think hes even close to jordan :roll: :cheers:

game 6
jordan steals ball from malone, hits game winner
lebron scared to shoot, misses game tying 3 pointer, ray allen bails him out

lebron =jordan. what a joke. :lol

[Nevaeh]

I can't find on/off stats for Jordan (outside of his Wizards years). So it is the only way to compare his casts to LeBron's.

LeBron has never been on a team that played the opposition evenly without him on the team. MJs team almost got to the Finals without him.

It is entirely relevant in comparing the two of them.


Number 1: No they didn't!! As has been proven a thousand times on ISH already, so you should know better than to post this bullsh!t myth by now.

Number 2: Lebron's been to 2 Finals where he basically pulled the rug from underneath his team at the worse time. Why tease the fans and your teammates with a dominating run leading up to the Finals, only to become a deer in the headlights when your team needs you the most?


The Irony of it all is, Lebron almost did the same damn thing in this years' finals, had it not been for Shuttlesworth finally waking up and reclaiming his clutch gene.


http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif

[GoSpursGo1984]

You say that as if Lebron hasnt already passed Kobe. (Which he has)

based on what your hate of kobe:facepalm

[SamuraiSWISH]

Number 1: No they didn't!! As has been proven a thousand times on ISH already, so you should know better than to post this bullsh!t myth by now.

Number 2: Lebron's been to 2 Finals where he basically pulled the rug from underneath his team at the worse time. Why tease the fans and your teammates with a dominating run leading up to the Finals, only to become a deer in the headlights when your team needs you the most?


The Irony of it all is, Lebron almost did the same damn thing in this years' finals, had it not been for Shuttlesworth finally waking up and reclaiming his clutch gene.


http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif
:applause:

[Lebron23]

based on what your hate of kobe:facepalm

4x NBA MVP, and 2x Finals MVP > 1x MVP, and 2x finals MVP

[nathanjizzle]

4x NBA MVP, and 2x Finals MVP > 1x MVP, and 2x finals MVP

2mvps 2 finals mvps when d rose was out of the league :roll:

[Greg Oden 50]

goat = jordan............:banana:

[plowking]

This will be the biggest deciding factor for LeBron as he ages. I think he can do it, but he hasn't really developed an efficient post game yet.

Funny, since his drop step move in the post was one of the most efficient in all the NBA.

[funnystuff]

Jordans team was STACKED. Even without Jordan they were a top team. Lebron > MJ in terms of individual player. Lebron is far behind his accolades though.

[poido123]

Yeah ok.

[AceManIII]

LeBron will fall around the level of Shaq on the GOAT list

[daily]

Number 1: No they didn't!! As has been proven a thousand times on ISH already, so you should know better than to post this bullsh!t myth by now.

Number 2: Lebron's been to 2 Finals where he basically pulled the rug from underneath his team at the worse time. Why tease the fans and your teammates with a dominating run leading up to the Finals, only to become a deer in the headlights when your team needs you the most?


The Irony of it all is, Lebron almost did the same damn thing in this years' finals, had it not been for Shuttlesworth finally waking up and reclaiming his clutch gene.



Funny how these facts are swept under the rug.

[red1]

He can never be the goat but he can easily be top 3 if he puts in a couple more dominant playoff runs.

[longtime lurker]

4x NBA MVP, and 2x Finals MVP > 1x MVP, and 2x finals MVP

5>2

[NumberSix]

Wilt, Jordan, Shaq & LeBron are the best players ever.

[zoom17]

Wilt, Jordan, Shaq & LeBron are the best players ever.
:applause:

[Marchesk]

Wilt, Jordan, Shaq & LeBron are the best players ever.

And Russell is the biggest winner ever. Wait, did your really leave Kareem out of that list?

Magic has a better claim to GOATness than Lebron does at this point in his career.

[Soundwave]

Not with only two championships. He needs to add 1-3 more. I'm not saying he can't, but there's a lot of work to be done.

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/325/1/b/prometheus_engineer_smiling_gif_by_milky0candy-d5lonet.gif

[riseagainst]

OP and every other lebron*tard in this thread are fakkits.