Bill Simmons on Tracy McGrady

[Collie]

Great article by Bill Simmons on Tracy McGrady and his legacy.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9616069/the-unfortunate-tale-t-mac

Excerpt:

[QUOTE]As the summer passed, everything I witnessed during the 2013 NBA Finals blurred into one colorful, eclectic memory. Tony Parker chewing up 23.999997 seconds of the shot clock before clinching Game 1 with an outrageous leaner. Spurs fans clogging downtown San Antonio after Game 5, relentlessly honking their horns and creating a festive gridlock. LeBron's headband getting symbolically knocked off in the second half of Game 6, right before he summoned his immense powers to save Miami's season. Ray Allen making the single greatest shot I've ever seen in person to steal San Antonio's championship away. Tim Duncan bent over in the last minute of Game 7, his hands pushing against his knees, totally distressed, unable to fathom how he missed a game-saving bunny that he's probably made a million times.

Somewhere in that Finals memory morass sits Tracy McGrady, once considered the de facto equal of Kobe Bryant

[LongLiveTheKing]

GREAT article, I read it earlier.

[kurt_rambis]

i appreciate that he can write 5,000 words on tracy mcgrady's legacy, but it's about 4,500 more words than i care to read

[andgar923]

He put it perfectly well.

As I mentioned in an earlier thread, if he had Kobe's approach, we probably wouldn't be calling MJ GOAT

[Project018]

Great article. One of my fave players of all time. Still have the ugly white and blue T Mac 2 shoes and his jersey til this day lol. Probably won't be 1st ballot hall of fame but he should get in.

[Noyze]

Smoothe jumper, 7'6 wingspan, lightning quick first step, superior ball handing (especially at his size), left hand almost better then his right, jumping ability and timing. His weaknesses were mental and injuries.

I mean the dude was top 5 most talented...ever, even alot more so then Kobe sorry.

[$LakerGold]

When I want to think of posterizes, all-around/dynamic player, very agile, highlight reels --- I always come up with T-Mac. A very rare type of player. I wanna say a poor-man of Lebron ... BUT A BETTER SCORER & less better on defense.

A 6'8 that just didn't just give a **** of who was guarding him, he would just get past you at ease & you better hope no one was around the paint or that player would get dunked on. This guy was part of my childhood & unfortunately, that list will continue to add up until there will be a time where none of the players from late 90's/early 00's will be playing anymore.

For me, Lebron & Melo are the last breed of the 2000's. Yes, they were drafted in 03' ... But they were part of IT -- where AI, Stevey Franchise, Marbury; were still playing at their highest level.

Man, I'm gonna miss em :(

[DCL]

tmac was definitely in the class of elite scorers that you give him the ball and get the *** outta the way.

[brantonli]

I love Grantland articles, because Simmons actually asks and quotes NBA players, coaches, GMs, rather than crap opinion pieces like on yahoo or ESPN. Like the quotes of JVG and Doc Rivers, both saying McGrady was never a leader and desperately needed some tough minded people around, that's something you can never read from a box score or see it in the game.

[bagelred]

He was better than Kobe at his peak....in my humble opinion. Any player who was the top perimeter player in the game....even for a relatively short period of time, is definitely going to the HOF.

He averaged over 24 PPG seven years in a row. Like Simmons said, if guys like Walton and King get into the HOF, even though careers were cut short due to injury, then TMAC is definitely getting in...no question.




.

[jzek]

This is why Simmons is the undisputed #1 sports writer in the world today. :bowdown:

[sdot_thadon]

Nice nod to T-mac by Simmons, one of my favorite players ever. He has retired now but officially has a place on my all time what could have been team. Penny and T-mac in the backcourt.

[chocolatethunder]

What a blow job, bullshit article. It was just some long apology for why T Mac's career never was what it should have been. Here's a news flash, player's careers are what they are. Nothing more, nothing less. And that doesn't mean it's bad, it just is. I don't have a problem w McGrady and no one else should. He was one of the best of his era when healthy. He had a knack for losing games in the playoffs. Like when Baron Davis ripped him at the end of that game. To me thAt sums up his playoff luck. It doesn't mean that he sucked it just means that for whatever reasons, he was unable to be a factor in the playoffs. Partly his fault, partly the fault of other people. That doesn't have to be his legacy. He was great when he was capable of playing. He made some bonehead moves but lots of people do.

[HardwoodLegend]

He had a knack for losing games in the playoffs. Like when Baron Davis ripped him at the end of that game. To me thAt sums up his playoff luck. It doesn't mean that he sucked it just means that for whatever reasons, he was unable to be a factor in the playoffs.

:facepalm

Terrible way of characterizing it. He didn't "lose games" in the Playoffs. "Losing games" implies that he was in an advantageous spot of winning and blew it aka. choked. There aren't many instances where he choked. He just came up short with the cards usually stacked against him. He did more than his share in most games.



Partly his fault, partly the fault of other people.

Mostly the fault of other people. And, that's not being an excuse-making apologist. It's just how it was.

[chocolatethunder]

:facepalm

Terrible way of characterizing it. He didn't "lose games" in the Playoffs. "Losing games" implies that he was in an advantageous spot of winning and blew it aka. choked. There aren't many instances where he choked. He just came up short with the cards usually stacked against him. He did more than his share in most games.




Mostly the fault of other people. And, that's not being an excuse-making apologist. It's just how it was.


Ok. T Mac admittedly slacked off in games while in Orlando. T Mac admittedly didnt practice hard. Van Gundy and Morey thought that his work ethic was not up to par. So don't cry me a river about how it was other people's fault when his teams didnt do well. He admits that he could have done better and his coach seems to think so too. 2003 up 3-1 to Detroit and loses the series. 2005 up 2-0 then lose the series. 2005 up 2-0 on the Jazz, lose the next two on the road the win game five at home then lost game seven at home. So yes, was in a advantageous situation on at least three occasions and couldn't seal the deal. Don't paint it to be like his teams never had home court or were never up in a series. That would not be true or fair. If you wanna be the man and take credit for when your team wins, you're gonna take some of the blame when it loses. He did have a knack for losing in the playoffs. It's not like he was the 8 seed every year.

[HardwoodLegend]

2003 up 3-1 to Detroit and loses the series.

Care to go look up how his teammates performed in Games 5-7?

That 3-1 lead was miraculous and part of the perfect storm of T-Mac playing out of his mind and then Detroit having to adjust as a team to focus all their efforts on slowing him down. A Detroit team that would win the Finals the next season with some minor tweaks. The series loss should not leave that much of a stain on T-Mac's legacy, because they weren't supposed to win that series. No chance.

As for the other series, other match-ups started to get exploited and that was the main reason for his team losing. T-Mac was ALWAYS delivering and performing better than the regular season. The way you talk, it's as if he just disappeared and was a shell of himself due to crumbling. That's not the case.

[HardwoodLegend]

A segment of the article that makes a very good point:

[QUOTE]Van Gundy wishes people didn't overrate playoff success when they evaluated players, pointing out that Kevin Garnett was the exact same player in 2007 (32 wins) and 2008 (82 wins, including playoffs). He believes the line between success and failure is much thinner, and much more random, than anyone wants to admit. The ultimate example: Game 6 of the 2013 Finals, obviously. But in 2007, Van Gundy's Rockets squandered a Game 7 at home, blowing a late lead to a fairly young Jazz team.7 Like always, everyone blamed McGrady for not coming through, even though he scored 29 points and added 13 assists. Had Houston prevailed, it would have played the no. 8 seed Warriors in Round 2, then San Antonio in the Western finals. Let's say it made the conference finals and lost in six. Would you feel differently about T-Mac's career then?

You would

[kNicKz]

The planets never aligned for McGrady.

Lebron had Ray hit the big shot

Michael had Kerr hit the big shot

Kobe had Artest hit the big shot.

T-Mac never had Yao when he needed him and never had the planets align for him like some stars do. It happens...he was a great player who will be missed.

[miles berg]

Care to go look up how his teammates performed in Games 5-7?

That 3-1 lead was miraculous and part of the perfect storm of T-Mac playing out of his mind and then Detroit having to adjust as a team to focus all their efforts on slowing him down. A Detroit team that would win the Finals the next season with some minor tweaks. The series loss should not leave that much of a stain on T-Mac's legacy, because they weren't supposed to win that series. No chance.

Minor tweaks? They got a new best player (Rasheed Wallace) and a new head coach (HOF'er to be Larry Brown) the next year. Those were huge changes!

TMac/Orlando should have beaten Detroit that year, Rick Carlisle completely exposed TMac much like he exposed LeBron in 2011.

[HardwoodLegend]

Minor tweaks? They got a new best player (Rasheed Wallace) and a new head coach (HOF'er to be Larry Brown) the next year. Those were huge changes!

TMac/Orlando should have beaten Detroit that year, Rick Carlisle completely exposed TMac much like he exposed LeBron in 2011.

T-Mac's stats in Games 5-7: 25.7 PPG, 8 RPG, 5 APG.

How was it T-Mac that got "exposed" when his teammates shot a combined 29% from the field with zero defensive attention directed their way in Game 5? T-Mac shot poorly for the remainder of the series, but that's only because defense against him ramped up as his teammates were dared to contribute something. Anything.

No way comparable to what we saw with LeBron in 2011 who had Wade and Bosh at his aid. LeBron simply checked out mentally.

You're telling me the Orlando Magic were the favorites as the 8th seed in the 2003 Playoffs? The hell kinda revisionist history is that?

:biggums:

No they shouldn't have won. They shouldn't have been up 3-1. That was a fluke all things considered, but ALL of the credit goes to McGrady for that lead. None of the blame should go to him for the loss. That's just the logical conclusion.

[HardwoodLegend]

Keep in mind T-Mac is the same player that carried that 2003 Orlando team to 2 straight wins for a 3-1 lead after they shot a combined 26.1% from the field. He outscored his teammates collective efforts by 13 points.

Yet, he was on the squad that should have beaten the #1 seed.

[hawkfan]

He should stayed in Toronto, but he was too selfish.
Carter-McGrady would have won several championships. And McGrady would have eventually have become the man, instead of just a bunch of good stats.

His ego got in the way of him collecting championships.

[IGOTGAME]

He should stayed in Toronto, but he was too selfish.
Carter-McGrady would have won several championships. And McGrady would have eventually have become the man, instead of just a bunch of good stats.

His ego got in the way of him collecting championships.
He went to Orlando to play with grant hill and possibly Tim Duncan...wanting to play with other superstars made him selfish.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Im a Bill Simmons fan, but that article that hasn't already been talked to death about. Tmac always had a loser mentality.

[SilkkTheShocker]

He should stayed in Toronto, but he was too selfish.
Carter-McGrady would have won several championships. And McGrady would have eventually have become the man, instead of just a bunch of good stats.

His ego got in the way of him collecting championships.

No they wouldn't have. They may have made the Finals, but they were beating the Lakers or Spurs. And I have my doubts Toronto could surround them with the pieces needed to win it all.

[Jacks3]

I like how he brings of the stats of Kobe/Mac from 01-08 but ignores the fact that:

1. Kobe had significantly better scoring efficeiny.
2. Played better defense.
3. Had much better advanced stats
4. Had far better +/- numbers
5. Played in more games
6. Had a prime that lasted far longer. T-Mac was out of his by 05, Kobe's lasted from 2001 to 2010. A good decade!

They're not close. Certainly in peak play, but Kobe's prime is well ahead. T-Mac and his talent and potential will continue to get overrated, just like every other star with injuries (G.Hill, King, Sampson, etc). People love to romanticize these guys and what they could have done. It gets ridiculous.

Saying T-Mac could have been GOAT or Grant Hill could have been as good as LeBron. LOL.

[guy]

I like how he brings of the stats of Kobe/Mac from 01-08 but ignores the fact that:

1. Kobe had significantly better scoring efficeiny.
2. Played better defense.
3. Had much better advanced stats
4. Had far better +/- numbers
5. Played in more games
6. Had a prime that lasted far longer. T-Mac was out of his by 05, Kobe's lasted from 2001 to 2010. A good decade!

They're not close. Certainly in peak play, but Kobe's prime is well ahead. T-Mac and his talent and potential will continue to get overrated, just like every other star with injuries (G.Hill, King, Sampson, etc). People love to romanticize these guys and what they could have done. It gets ridiculous.

Saying T-Mac could have been GOAT or Grant Hill could have been as good as LeBron. LOL.

Not like he says T-Mac was better.

[HardwoodLegend]

Tmac always had a loser mentality.

How so? You never explain this fully.

How does a player with a loser mentality step up his production in the Playoffs and have his outmatched supporting casts at least being competitive into multiple Game 7's if he has a loser mentality? He clearly wanted to win and was giving it his all.

[Jacks3]

Not like he says T-Mac was better.
He implies they have close primes even though Kobe is actually well ahead when we look deeper. I've also seen some other morons say T-Mac had the better prime. Laughable.

[HardwoodLegend]

I like how he brings of the stats of Kobe/Mac from 01-08 but ignores the fact that:

1. Kobe had significantly better scoring efficeiny.
2. Played better defense.
3. Had much better advanced stats
4. Had far better +/- numbers
5. Played in more games
6. Had a prime that lasted far longer. T-Mac was out of his by 05, Kobe's lasted from 2001 to 2010. A good decade!

They're not close. Certainly in peak play, but Kobe's prime is well ahead. T-Mac and his talent and potential will continue to get overrated, just like every other star with injuries (G.Hill, King, Sampson, etc). People love to romanticize these guys and what they could have done. It gets ridiculous.

Saying T-Mac could have been GOAT or Grant Hill could have been as good as LeBron. LOL.

Kobe never had a 29.0 PER, let alone 30.2 like T-Mac.

Pretty impressive that T-Mac was able to keep his numbers afloat and comparable to Kobe while he rapidly became a shell of himself.

And, Kobe was in a more advantageous position for most of his career. A good game that highlighted this was the 2003-04 matchup when Kobe had that monster surge in the 2nd half and OT for a comeback win over T-Mac's Magic. He was able to bide his time, lay low through most of the quarters as Shaq dominated one half of the offense and then turn it on when T-Mac's energy started to fade from doing all the work to keep his team in the game.

[Jacks3]

Kobe never had a 29.0 PER, let alone 30.2 like T-Mac.
PER is a garbage stat. Besides, I already said they have very similar/comparable peaks.


Pretty impressive that T-Mac was able to keep his numbers afloat and comparable to Kobe while he rapidly became a shell of himself.
They're not really comparable at all. I already explained this.



And, Kobe was in a more advantageous position for most of his career.
Meh. You T-mac fans have always loved your excuses and hypothetical situations. "Situation" and "position", whatever, it doesn't change Kobe's humungous advantages in terms of prime play.

[Jacks3]

I like how he brings of the stats of Kobe/Mac from 01-08 but ignores the fact that:

1. Kobe had significantly better scoring efficeiny.
2. Played better defense.
3. Had much better advanced stats
4. Had far better +/- numbers
5. Played in more games
6. Had a prime that lasted far longer. T-Mac was out of his by 05, Kobe's lasted from 2001 to 2010. A good decade!

They're not close. Certainly in peak play, but Kobe's prime is well ahead. T-Mac and his talent and potential will continue to get overrated, just like every other star with injuries (G.Hill, King, Sampson, etc). People love to romanticize these guys and what they could have done. It gets ridiculous.

Saying T-Mac could have been GOAT or Grant Hill could have been as good as LeBron. LOL.
Forgot...

7. Far greater intangibles ITO work-ethic, competitiveness, leadership, desire, etc.

[HardwoodLegend]

They're not really comparable at all. I already explained this.

Expound upon that. Post cumulative numeric evidence to back up what you said.



Meh. You T-mac fans have always loved your excuses and hypothetical situations. "Situation" and "position", whatever, it doesn't change Kobe's humungous advantages in terms of prime play.

Excuses? They're not excuses and hypothetical situations. Seeing how that game played clearly illustrates the impact a supporting cast could have.

T-Mac couldn't afford to go through an entire 1st half with only 2 FGA's if he wanted his team to even have a prayer of winning. Kobe could. Having Shaq gave him many opportunities to shine at times when other players had to dig deep to even sustain what was demanded of them from tip-off.

[Soundwave]

Expound upon that. Post cumulative numeric evidence to back up what you said.




Excuses? They're not excuses and hypothetical situations. Seeing how that game played clearly illustrates the impact a supporting cast could have.

T-Mac couldn't afford to go through an entire 1st half with only 2 FGA's if he wanted his team to even have a prayer of winning. Kobe could. Having Shaq gave him many opportunities to shine at times when other players had to dig deep to even sustain what was demanded of them from tip-off.

That may be so, but even Kobe wasn't dumb enough to dump Shaq at least until he'd gotten 3 titles off Shaq and 4 Finals appearances working with him.

McGrady could've had it much easier if he had stayed in a perfectly great situation in Toronto where he had a bonafied star to play with in Vince Carter and a decent supporting core outside of that.

So it's kinda hard to feel sorry for T-Mac. The basketball gods gifted him a great situation to be in right off the bat and he was too immature to deal with certain aspects of it.

[Jacks3]

Expound upon that.


1. Kobe had significantly better scoring efficeiny and on much higher volume.
2. Played better defense.
3. Had much better advanced stats
4. Had far better +/- numbers
5. Played in more games
6. Had a prime that lasted far longer. T-Mac was out of his by 05, Kobe's lasted from 2001 to 2010. A good decade!


Excuses? They're not excuses and hypothetical situations.
Yes, they are. Kobe's big advantages are there even when he was playing next to shit. For example, he had significantly greater scoring efficiency whether he was playing next to Shaq, or with garbage like Smush/Kwame/Mihm, or with Pau. Meanwhile, T-Mac was usually at or below league average efficiency almost every year from 01-08. He had several years where he posted historically bad efficiency despite playing next to Yao Ming. That's just one example. Like I said, you can't brush off so much significant advantages and such a gap in both overall prime and overall career by simply pointing out "situation and position". That's just silly. That may have some part to do it, but ultimately doesn't come close to explaining the huge gulf. Like I said, it's just yet another excuse. T-Mac fans are full of them.

[hawkfan]

He went to Orlando to play with grant hill and possibly Tim Duncan...wanting to play with other superstars made him selfish.

He already was playing with a superstar - Vince Carter.

That would have been the best wing duo in the league, at that time.

[hawkfan]

No they wouldn't have. They may have made the Finals, but they were beating the Lakers or Spurs. And I have my doubts Toronto could surround them with the pieces needed to win it all.

Veterans at the end of their careers want to go somewhere where they can win.

Joining Carter-McGrady would have been very appealing to many veterans.

Who was their coach then?

[HardwoodLegend]

That may be so, but even Kobe wasn't dumb enough to dump Shaq at least until he'd gotten 3 titles off Shaq and 4 Finals appearances working with him.

McGrady could've had it much easier if he had stayed in a perfectly great situation in Toronto where he had a bonafied star to play with in Vince Carter and a decent supporting core outside of that.

So it's kinda hard to feel sorry for T-Mac. The basketball gods gifted him a great situation to be in right off the bat and he was too immature to deal with certain aspects of it.

Kobe would have had an even more tumultuous relationship with a superstar perimeter player and probably would forced his way out of the situation sooner.

[HardwoodLegend]

3. Had much better advanced stats
4. Had far better +/- numbers

Post the evidence.



Yes, they are. Kobe's big advantages are there even when he was playing next to shit. For example, he had significantly greater scoring efficiency whether he was playing next to Shaq, or with garbage like Smush/Kwame/Mihm, or with Pau. Meanwhile, T-Mac was usually at or below league average efficiency almost every year from 01-08. He had several years where he posted historically bad efficiency despite playing next to Yao Ming. That's just one example. Like I said, you can't brush off so much significant advantages and such a gap in both overall prime and overall career by simply pointing out "situation and position". That's just silly. That may have some part to do it, but ultimately doesn't come close to explaining the huge gulf. Like I said, it's just yet another excuse. T-Mac fans are full of them.

Health had a large part to do with it. I will not deny that Kobe's durability was clearly superior, but the "huge gulf" doesn't all come down to Kobe simply being a "much better player". He had better rosters more often, and his body didn't fail him.

[Jacks3]

Post the evidence.
Better advanced stats:
Kobe 01-08:
25.0 PER/56.0% TS/113 ORTG/100.0 WS/.200 WS/48
T-Mac 01-08:
24.2 PER/52.4%/109 ORTG/78.7 WS/.175 WS/48
Not close.

Better +/- numbers:
RAPM (Regularized Adjusted Plus Minus).
2002: Kobe ahead
2003: Kobe
2004: Kobe
2005: T-Mac
2006: Kobe by far
2007: Kobe by far
2008: Kobe by far

No data for 2001. Again, Kobe is well ahead. And all the multi-year studies have Kobe much higher but we're just looking at 01-08.

Link: https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/


Health had a large part to do with it. I will not deny that Kobe's durability was clearly superior, but the "huge gulf" doesn't all come down to Kobe simply being a "much better player". He had better rosters more often, and his body didn't fail him.
Health is just one part of it and comes in large part because Kobe had a much better work-ethic. But Kobe has several huge areas where he's simply far ahead.

[Legends66NBA7]

Veterans at the end of their careers want to go somewhere where they can win.

Joining Carter-McGrady would have been very appealing to many veterans.

Who was their coach then?

Butch Carter got fired after the 2000 season. Lenny Wilkens was then hired as coach.

Both you and Silkk have points. Veterans could be interested to help build around a potential championship core, but it would come down to the management to make those decisions and they didn't really do a good job surrounding Carter alone with talent. They also traded their veteran presence, defense, hustle players, etc... for scorers and me-first players, which ultimately has cursed the franchise for a close to a decade, usually ranking in the low's or dead last in defense.

So, while they could get to the Finals and possibly winning a title, sustaining it or even building around it probably would not have realistically happened with the same management.

[The_Yearning]

Achievements and accolades aside, just straight up skill and talent, Tracy McGrady is the GOAT.

No debate.

[guy]

He implies they have close primes even though Kobe is actually well ahead when we look deeper. I've also seen some other morons say T-Mac had the better prime. Laughable.

They're close enough that there numbers during that period were that close.

[Jacks3]

They're close enough that there numbers during that period were that close.
Their numbers aren't close during that period. Kobe has better raw numbers, far better advanced numbers, far better +/- numbers, and had much better scoring efficeiny in more games while playing better defense So no, they aren't. Kobe is well ahead.

[chocolatethunder]

I don't get all of this. McGrady admits to taking nights off, to not practicing hard and that it was a mistake to leave Toronto, yet somehow people are still apologizing and making excuses for his career? Dude was an awesome player at times and that's what he was. His career is what it is and a lot of that had to do with him. So what. That article was trash and I like Simmons.

[HardwoodLegend]

I don't get all of this. McGrady admits to taking nights off, to not practicing hard and that it was a mistake to leave Toronto, yet somehow people are still apologizing and making excuses for his career? Dude was an awesome player at times and that's what he was. His career is what it is and a lot of that had to do with him. So what. That article was trash and I like Simmons.

I don't free T-Mac of all blame. His lack of work ethic definitely contributed to his demise, but I think he frequently gets more blame than he deserves from some of his harsher critics. No one other than he is responsible for how weak his mindstate sometimes was, but it was the absolute dearth of an environment he found himself in while on the Magic that caused him to not want to apply himself. If Grant Hill had remained healthy, the trajectory of his career likely would have been a lot more impressive.

People probably continue to harp on it, because if you're a fan it's frustrating to see that his luck wasn't just a little bit better. His talent level not being fully utilized and extended like it could have been has us thinking we missed out on some really great basketball.

[chocolatethunder]

I don't free T-Mac of all blame. His lack of work ethic definitely contributed to his demise, but I think he frequently gets more blame than he deserves from some of his harsher critics. No one other than he is responsible for how weak his mindstate sometimes was, but it was the absolute dearth of an environment he found himself in while on the Magic that caused him to not want to apply himself. If Grant Hill had remained healthy, the trajectory of his career likely would have been a lot more impressive.

People probably continue to harp on it, because if you're a fan it's frustrating to see that his luck wasn't just a little bit better. His talent level not being fully utilized and extended like it could have been has us thinking we missed out on some really great basketball.

Many of the greats would not settle for that and would have gone down swinging "making" their own luck, you get that? Like they wouldn't settle for mediocrity. That's the problem w McGrady, when it was time to point the finger he pointed it everywhere but himself. He now realizes it was wrong but that doesn't change anything. It's called making your teammates better and leading by example. Lots of great players have been on shitty teams. If you think that Jordan took nights off or Bird did you're nuts. And those guys could get by on talent alone but they were workhorses in practices. Most of the greats were. That's why they are greats. I'm no Kobe dick rider but that dude works his ass off. If Mcgrady had the mental make up of someone like that it's very likely that his career would have been different. So to me, that article is bullshit. I have no problem saying he was an awesome player either. But I'm realistic about what he was and I don't need to make excuses for him and neither should anyone else.

[DMAVS41]

Better advanced stats:
Kobe 01-08:
25.0 PER/56.0% TS/113 ORTG/100.0 WS/.200 WS/48
T-Mac 01-08:
24.2 PER/52.4%/109 ORTG/78.7 WS/.175 WS/48
Not close.

Better +/- numbers:
RAPM (Regularized Adjusted Plus Minus).
2002: Kobe ahead
2003: Kobe
2004: Kobe
2005: T-Mac
2006: Kobe by far
2007: Kobe by far
2008: Kobe by far

No data for 2001. Again, Kobe is well ahead. And all the multi-year studies have Kobe much higher but we're just looking at 01-08.

Link: https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/


Health is just one part of it and comes in large part because Kobe had a much better work-ethic. But Kobe has several huge areas where he's simply far ahead.

Hmmm. Interesting. So I'd like your take on these players statistically using that standard of evidence you just provided;

26/5/5 54.1% TS 22.4 PER 110 ortg 106 drtg .157 ws/48

26/10/3 58.4% TS 24.7 PER 118 ortg 107 drtg .205 ws/48

26/11/3 56.9% TS 25.7 PER 112 ortg 101 drtg .189 ws/48

22/12/3 54.7% TS 24.9 PER 109 ortg 98 drtg .195 ws/48

28/9/7 56.7% TS 27.3 PER 115 ortg 101 drtg .238 ws/48

24/6/5 55.4% TS 23.3 PER 108 ortg 102 drt .171 ws/48


You mind ranking them by those stats you provided to say "not close"...

[AlphaWolf24]

He put it perfectly well.

As I mentioned in an earlier thread, if he had Kobe's approach, we probably wouldn't be calling MJ GOAT…. YES that's how good he could've been (barring the injuries of course).

Ok… Ok… an exaggeration on my behalf, but you guys get the point.


this could be said about a lot of Pro players...

anyone getting paid millions at a young age will have a lot of reasons to rest on Raw talent

it's the little things that separate the true greats from the pack






Heck Sharif abdur Rahim could have been as great as Magic if he loved the game

[guy]

Their numbers aren't close during that period. Kobe has better raw numbers, far better advanced numbers, far better +/- numbers, and had much better scoring efficeiny in more games while playing better defense So no, they aren't. Kobe is well ahead.

You can't make a comparison of 26/6/6/44%/24 PER vs 29/6/5/45%/25 PER or 30/7/7/43%/25 PER vs 28/6/5/45%/23 PER? If you can't make that comparison then what comparisons can you make? And +/- means nothing here since Kobe clearly had better teams on average during that time.

[GoSpursGo1984]

Great article. One of my fave players of all time. Still have the ugly white and blue T Mac 2 shoes and his jersey til this day lol. Probably won't be 1st ballot hall of fame but he should get in.

Mitch Richmond will have to go in first before we even consider Mcgrady

[tmacattack33]

[QUOTE=andgar923]He put it perfectly well.

As I mentioned in an earlier thread, if he had Kobe's approach, [B]we probably wouldn't be calling MJ GOAT

[sundizz]

Nah...even at his peak, which was indeed top 20 of all time, he wasn't talked about like that anywhere besides hardcore basketball circles.

If he didn't get injured, his legacy would be similar to Wade's.

Yeah, I concur. Tmac never could of been GOAT. His game was amazing...but not conducive to winning the way Jordan's game was. He relied too much on smooth play, and not enough on jugular rim attacks. Same with his defense..he played good defense, but not inspiring to his teammates type of defense.

[DMAVS41]

Hmmm. Interesting. So I'd like your take on these players statistically using that standard of evidence you just provided;

26/5/5 54.1% TS 22.4 PER 110 ortg 106 drtg .157 ws/48

26/10/3 58.4% TS 24.7 PER 118 ortg 107 drtg .205 ws/48

26/11/3 56.9% TS 25.7 PER 112 ortg 101 drtg .189 ws/48

22/12/3 54.7% TS 24.9 PER 109 ortg 98 drtg .195 ws/48

28/9/7 56.7% TS 27.3 PER 115 ortg 101 drtg .238 ws/48

24/6/5 55.4% TS 23.3 PER 108 ortg 102 drt .171 ws/48


You mind ranking them by those stats you provided to say "not close"...

Still waiting for an answer to this...Jacks3

[kshutts1]

Still waiting for an answer to this...Jacks3
The answer is, as most of us know, that "advanced ratings" can still be misleading.

TMac and Dirk, at their best, were on Kobe's level.

The obvious separation is length of "prime" or "best".

For that 5-7 year window, TMac was arguably the best player in the game, and should most certainly have at least one MVP.

[DMAVS41]

The answer is, as most of us know, that "advanced ratings" can still be misleading.

TMac and Dirk, at their best, were on Kobe's level.

The obvious separation is length of "prime" or "best".

For that 5-7 year window, TMac was arguably the best player in the game, and should most certainly have at least one MVP.

Well...I agree with that.

But those are the career playoff numbers of;

Kobe
Dirk
Hakeem
Duncan
Lebron
Wade

And Kobe has the worst overall numbers out of anyone in that group overall.

So I'd wonder if he'd use "not close" when comparing Lebron/Hakeem in the playoffs to Kobe.

[kshutts1]

Is a higher number for defensive rating better or worse?

[DMAVS41]

Is a higher number for defensive rating better or worse?

Worse...lower is better.

It's points allowed per 100 possessions when said player is on the floor.

While offensive rating is points produced per 100 possessions when by player when on the floor.

[Jacks3]

The answer is, as most of us know, that "advanced ratings" can still be misleading.
Advanced stats were only one small part of my argument for why Kobe's 01-08 stretch is well ahead of T-Mac's. Obviously, having better advanced numbers doesn't automatically make one player better than the other. There are a multitude of other factors and variables to consider.

TMac and Dirk, at their best, were on Kobe's level.
True.




For that 5-7 year window, TMac was arguably the best player in the game, and should most certainly have at least one MVP.
Uh, no. He had one year (2003) where you can make a reasonable argument.

He doesn't have a case in any other season.

[DMAVS41]

Advanced stats were only one small part of my argument for why Kobe's 01-08 stretch is well ahead of T-Mac's. Obviously, having better advanced numbers doesn't automatically make one player better than the other. There are a multitude of other factors and variables to consider.

True.




Uh, no. He had one year (2003) where you can make a reasonable argument.

He doesn't have a case in any other season.

I of course agree about there being other factors than objective measures like stats, but could you name the other things you find really important when evaluating a player?

[secund2nun]

Tmac= bad timing, bad teammates, bad luck, and bad health

It's amazing how 2 players (Kobe and Tmac) who are the same can come at the same time and have completely different legacies because of fate itself.

[bballbball]

damn Jacks stop being annoying damn

[DMAVS41]

I of course agree about there being other factors than objective measures like stats, but could you name the other things you find really important when evaluating a player?

Still waiting Jacks3...on this and the other question...

[chocolatethunder]

Tmac= bad timing, bad teammates, bad luck, and bad health

It's amazing how 2 players (Kobe and Tmac) who are the same can come at the same time and have completely different legacies because of fate itself.
I don't think it was fate that caused him to not practice hard and take nights off. I'm no Kobe nut rider but you'd never find him doing that.

[Lebron23]

Tmac was already having back problems at age 23.

[Scholar]

I'll miss T-Mac, but honestly, I got over him through the 2009 season. That was the last time T-Mac was worth oohing and awing over.
I think he could've been a top 10 player had he simply stayed healthy and maybe won 1 championship, but the time for that has long passed. There's no need to make excuses for the guy anymore. Injuries are a part of the game. I feel sorry for him career-wise, but let's face one simple fact: he has lived an extraordinary life. The life of T-Mac with a broken back and millions in the bank >>>>>>>> 100% healthy 99.9% of the world.
Sorry, that's irrelevant. This is about bball and not who-has-a-better-life.
T-Mac for HoF? Sure, he deserves a reserved spot in there.