2009 Wade was better than Kobe ever was

[Electric Slide]

especially since there is this thing called defense.

[G-Funk]

rolol

[BuGzBuNNy]

nope

[G-Funk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaKgZemXzZk

[Electric Slide]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaKgZemXzZk
http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2013/1/11/3864814/kobe-bryant-is-ruining-kobe-bryants-historic-season




To call Kobe Bryant's defense this season bad is to call the Pacific Ocean big, or the sun hot. He hasn't just been bad and he's not just a liability. His presence on the defensive end of the court has actually become a detriment, in the truest sense of the word. And the worst part? He's not failing to play defense. He has willingly decided that he no longer needs to try.

[MetsPackers]

This is already common knowledge to non-LA fans and non Kobe-stans. We just had this thread the other day and a good majority agreed Wade peaked higher. And a VAST majority of those who said Kobe were LA fans. Don't take their ignorance personally. Wade had a fantastic peak, and the fact that it was higher than Kobe's doesn't affect Kobe's legacy one bit. Although their arguments always come down to "5 ringz yo!", they still vehemently stan against the fact that Kobe's stats just don't measure up to many other alltime greats. Unless you count totals, which are completely useless when judging a player's greatness

[funnystuff]

Player talent/skill? By far. If accolades played no part in most peoples top all time list, Kobe wouldnt even sniff the top 10.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Player talent/skill? By far. If accolades played no part in most peoples top all time list, Kobe wouldnt even sniff the top 10.


If accolades were just handed out on a whim, You might have a point.

If we just could weed out all this bs about championships, accolades, longevity, totals and facts people would realize how overrated Kobe has.

Because let's face it, who's really playing for any of the things mentioned above?

[funnystuff]

If accolades were just handed out on a whim, You might have a point.

If we just could weed out all this bs about championships, accolades, longevity, totals and facts people would realize how overrated Kobe has.

Because let's face it, who's really playing for any of the things mentioned above?
See, you just described Kobe's first 3 championships. :applause:

[tpols]

GTFO with that bullshit.. same dude who dropped as a 5th seed to the mfing hawks..

Lakers with Kobe shouldve upseted a much better suns team but fell short.. either way Kobe dropping 50, gamewinners in the playoffs, 40 point months, 50 points every other day, 60+ multiple times.. One of the most dominant displays of offense in the history of basketball. Wade just cant touch it..


Vast majority of people who say Wade was better are kobe haters or 12 yrs old like OP and never even saw either play in their primes


Whatever the case, there was NOWHERE near as much excitement around Wades 09 as their was around the things Kobe was doing in 06 and 07.. His offensive feats were some of the most impressive ever


Kobe was like peak mike tyson.. video game shit. Wades like buster douglass, had one, two good runs and faded out

[fpliii]

This is where we get into semantics I think. I'm a big Wade fan, and I think he had the "best" regular season so to speak (and arguably best playoffs of himself and Kobe), but I think Kobe was a better player in a few years.

[Doranku]

Sorry, but if you surround prime Kobe with a bunch of college players, he'd find a way to beat the f*cking lowly Hawks.

Prime Wade got outplayed by Joe Johnson in Game 7. Let that sink in.

[TheMarkMadsen]

See, you just described Kobe's first 3 championships. :applause:

And you wonder why nobody takes you seriously.

I get it, you started watching basketball in 2011, you don't remember Kobe dominating the WCF on 32 7 & 6, you don't remember that going into the 2001 WCF Kobe was averaging more points than Shaq, had out scored Shaq in total points while playing less minutes.

You don't remember WCF game 7 with 30 10 & 7, you hear "48 & 16" and think Lebron was the first person to do it, 45 & 10 against the Spurs against prime Duncan.. The list goes on and on.

[aj1987]

Kobe was like peak mike tyson.. video game shit. Wades like buster douglass, had one, two good runs and faded out
Douglas knocked out Tyson.


you don't remember Kobe dominating the WCF on 32 7 & 6, you don't remember that going into the 2001 WCF Kobe was averaging more points than Shaq, had out scored Shaq in total points while playing less minutes.

First two rounds.
Kobe: 30.7 PPG 7 RPG 5 APG 1.7 SPG 0.7 BPG on 47.6%
Shaq: 30.6 PPG 16.6 RPG 2.5 APG 0.3 SPG 2.3 BPG on 55%



Sorry, but if you surround prime Kobe with a bunch of college players, he'd find a way to beat the f*cking lowly Hawks.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200602150LAL.html

He didn't do it with NBA players? :confusedshrug:

[Heavincent]

GTFO with that bullshit.. same dude who dropped as a 5th seed to the mfing hawks..

Lakers with Kobe shouldve upseted a much better suns team but fell short.. either way Kobe dropping 50, gamewinners in the playoffs, 40 point months, 50 points every other day, 60+ multiple times.. One of the most dominant displays of offense in the history of basketball. Wade just cant touch it..


Vast majority of people who say Wade was better are kobe haters or 12 yrs old like OP and never even saw either play in their primes


Whatever the case, there was NOWHERE near as much excitement around Wades 09 as their was around the things Kobe was doing in 06 and 07.. His offensive feats were some of the most impressive ever


Kobe was like peak mike tyson.. video game shit. Wades like buster douglass, had one, two good runs and faded out

This

[Le Shaqtus]

http://imageshack.us/a/img825/7059/oplovecocks.gif

[PJR]

Agreed. Unless you're a sucker for volume binge scoring, and think that's all there is to the game(there seems to be a few of those on here).

But, if you want a guy who was literally giving you the entire package from the 2 guard position?

I mean....Look what Wade was doing post-all star break for a month

http://i1084.photobucket.com/albums/j414/44448888/wade.jpg

Averages during that stretch:

37.2 ppg
5.9 rpg
10.4 apg
2.9 spg
1.4 bpg
.553 fg%
.419 3pt%
.865 ft%
41.85 eff

Video game type shit, B.

[tpols]

You don't have to be a suckered for binge scoring to appreciate stretches of 50-60 pt games, beating teams literally all by yourself.. Literally. Could've scored 80+ MULTIPLE times if not for sitting out quarters due to blowing teams out.. It's just unheard of and that offensive peak was never reached by Wade. He couldn't explode offensively like Kobe could. More consistent heavy production but at their best Kobe reached another gear. FACT.


For all wades extra assists his team finished 20th in offensive rating... Kobe's finished 7th and 8th. Also more regular season wins.. Better in the playoffs.. Both played on shit teams, Kobe in the far tougher conference still with more success.

Kobe was more dominant to anyone who saw 06 and 09. This is nothing but revisionist history

[funnystuff]

And you wonder why nobody takes you seriously.

I get it, you started watching basketball in 2011, you don't remember Kobe dominating the WCF on 32 7 & 6, you don't remember that going into the 2001 WCF Kobe was averaging more points than Shaq, had out scored Shaq in total points while playing less minutes.

You don't remember WCF game 7 with 30 10 & 7, you hear "48 & 16" and think Lebron was the first person to do it, 45 & 10 against the Spurs against prime Duncan.. The list goes on and on.
I think its cute where you can only list 1 series where Kobe plays well out of 12 in the stretch. Anyone outside of California and/or Kobe's butthole understands that Shaq carried the fck out of Kobe. But i assume youre one of the ones in Kobe's anus.

[TonyMontana]

Agreed. Unless you're a sucker for volume binge scoring, and think that's all there is to the game(there seems to be a few of those on here).

But, if you want a guy who was literally giving you the entire package from the 2 guard position?

I mean....Look what Wade was doing post-all star break for a month

http://i1084.photobucket.com/albums/j414/44448888/wade.jpg

Averages during that stretch:

37.2 ppg
5.9 rpg
10.4 apg
2.9 spg
1.4 bpg
.553 fg%
.419 3pt%
.865 ft%
41.85 eff

Video game type shit, B.

:applause:

ethered.

Look at the efficiency and the APG in particular during that stretch. Those are numbers Kobe couldn't even dream of.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Could've scored 80+ MULTIPLE times if not for sitting out quarters due to blowing teams out
It's alarming that you don't consider that excessive as a selfish teammate. Like in any of those games, including the 81 point game when the game was decided well before hand, that he couldn't start passing to open teammates once the defense was locked in on him.

And no ... the only time he had a legit shot at 80 or 80+ was the 62 in 3 quarters game v.s. Dallas. Dude was getting a TON of soft touch foul calls to get to the line that game.

No other game in 2006 or 2007 would've saw him get to 80. The circumstances have to be just right, and the player just stubborn and relentlessly selfish enough to do it. While also being blistering hot from the field.

Maybe the 54 point in 3 quarter game v.s. Utah in 2007. But he would've had to dropped a consecutive 30+ point quarter in the 4th, as he just did it in that 3rd quarter. And I don't see that happening realistically.

How come there wasn't more of these explosions in the 2006 playoffs, or the 2007 playoffs? Especially in '06 and '07 when his team needed it. I expected multiple game 6, 50 point performances that year. And Lamar Odom was arguably LA's best player through the first 4 or 5 games of the series. Kobe playing fascilitator and decoy role, shooting much worse against them than he had in the regular season.


Kobe was more dominant to anyone who saw 06 and 09. This is nothing but revisionist history
This isn't true, either. Kobe was a monster on offense in terms of volume scoring, as he gave it all his energy and focus. Clearly.

Wade put up 5 ppg less, on better shooting percentage, and across the board had better numbers. Particularly in distribution, where he put up 7 - 8 dimes a game. And also of major significance played much better defense than Kobe did in 2006.

Wade's next best player wasn't near Lamar Odom caliber, either. Who was it, rookie Michael Beasley and Mario Chalmers?

Your Kobe stanning has you blinded. Kobe was impressive that year. It's less impressive in retrospect given the way the rules changed and so many perimeter stars saw a MASSIVE spike in PPG output.

The show goes on, Kobe fans insecure massively underrate Wade ... and Wade stans overrate Wade to overcompensate for lack of respect.

Peak for Peak, they're actually equal. Wade at his best, possibly better. But Kobe takes the nod overall due to durability, and longevity. More elite comparable peak seasons.

[Young X]

^Good post.

[tpols]

It's alarming that you don't consider that excessive as a selfish teammate. Like in any of those games, including the 81 point game when the game was decided well before hand, that he couldn't start passing to open teammates once the defense was locked in on him.
Because sam mitchell insisted on single coverage because he didnt believe he could keep it up.. and his strategy was to isolate Kobe from his teammates and win once he ran out of energy..

which he never did because his scoring was heavily based on long and midrange jumpers which dont fatigue you as much as slashing. Rule changes had little effect on that game. He caught an extreme shooting heat wave and rode it. No 100 FTs in sight..




And no ... the only time he had a legit shot at 80 or 80+ was the 62 in 3 quarters game v.s. Dallas. Dude was getting a TON of soft touch foul calls to get to the line that game.
And I said multiple times. Last I checked anything more than one counts as multiple.



How come there wasn't more of these explosions in the 2006 playoffs, or the 2007 playoffs? Especially in '06 and '07 when his team needed it. I expected multiple game 6, 50 point performances that year. And Lamar Odom was arguably LA's best player through the first 4 or 5 games of the series. Kobe playing fascilitator and decoy role, shooting much worse against them than he had in the regular season.
For the very reason you criticized Kobe for before.. in the playoffs, where teams can gameplan for you and focus harder on defending matchups, it is more conducive to winning if you play as a team. Which Kobe did.

And he did drop 50 in the playoffs.. and land a gamewinner.. and was more impressive against the superior suns ball club than Wade was against an inferior hawks team.




Wade put up 5 ppg less, on better shooting percentage, and across the board had better numbers. Particularly in distribution, where he put up 7 - 8 dimes a game. And also of major significance played much better defense than Kobe did in 2006.
Wade shot 57TS in 09. Kobe shot 56 and 58TS in 06 and 07 respectively. Same efficiency, heavier volume. Better, more notable peak performances. More clutch takeovers and gamewinners. He was an overall more dominant offensive machine. Not by a lot.. but it was noticeable.



Your Kobe stanning has you blinded. Kobe was impressive that year. It's less impressive in retrospect given the way the rules changed and so many perimeter stars saw a MASSIVE spike in PPG output.
Not at all.. Kobe attempted 27 shots per game in 2006 and had 10 FTs per game. In other years like 03 when he shot the most shots in the shaq era he took 8.9 FTs on 23.5 shots. In 01 he took 8 on 22. In 04 he took 8 on 18.

His FTs rised proportionally with his shots before and after the rule changes.. Kobe was a midrange and long range shooter first and foremost. Hed attack second, shoot first.

And how ironic that in a comparison about Wade you bring up rule changes and FTs.. guy who saw the most free throws ever for a playoffs series besides shaq when they were hack-a-shaqing him all day and jerry west when they ran up and down the court a million times more per game.

[Electric Slide]

Kobe was never been able to play elite defense in his prime/peak. He was always one-way player. The only time he ever played great D was with Shaq and even then he was pretty overrated at it.

Wade was 3rd in DPOY in 2009 and at his best defensively when he was actually on his own. We all know how dominant he was offensively and how efficient he was.

Believe it or not, Kobe's offense actually hurts his defense because he misses so many shots that he allows fast break opportunities for opposing teams. This is where FG%/eFG% comes in to play.

[Lebron23]

One of the best Non MVP Season in NBA History. That's Why Wade is a top 20 player of all time. He should have been in the all NBA defensive team. He averaged 2.5 spg, ans 1.3 bpg.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

One of the best Non MVP Season in NBA History. That's Why Wade is a top 20 player of all time. He should have been in the all NBA defensive team. He averaged 2.5 spg, ans 1.3 bpg.

Why do you talk like a robot?

[lakerspng]

can there please be an age requirement to post?

you cannot have watched the two players careers and come close to that opinion.

just ridiculous.

[The Choken One]

Ah, haven't been on this site in awhile and the first thing I see is some brain dead dipshit saying Wade is better than Kobe.

The trolls never sleep here, huh?

[funnystuff]

can there please be an age requirement to post?

you cannot have watched the two players careers and come close to that opinion.

just ridiculous.
You say that, when Wades 2006 finals performance was 10x better than any finals Kobe has participated in.


You sound like you're 12, yet you request an age requirement to post?

[MetsPackers]

Take note that the ONLY people defending Kobe in this thread are known Laker fans/Kobe stans. Nobody is saying Wade is better than Kobe you clowns, just that peak Wade would be more valuable to a team. Also note that not one Heat fan has posted in this thread either :roll: Ignorance is bliss I suppose :roll: :roll:

[magnax1]

I think the consensus among non Laker fans is that they had pretty close peaks. TMac Lebron Wade and Kobe all kind of peaked in the same tier. The rest of their careers is what seperates them.

[Suguru101]

You guys have valid points, and Wade's 2009 is indeed one of the best seasons by a shooting guard statistically...

But there are two things that keep Wade at his peak from being better than Kobe:

Shooting

Kobe is a vastly better mid-range shooter than Wade, and better three-point shooter and free-throw shooter.

Size

Kobe Bryant is a 6'6/6'7 shooting guard with lengthy arms who could see over a defense better than Wade and was also able to guard anybody from 6 feet up to 6'9 feet(Mcgrady).

That size, along with his skillset made a peak Kobe Bryant(2008-2009) a much better post player than Wade has ever been. Why is that important? Because in the playoffs, Wade can't just accelerate his way into the hoop like he can in the regular season.

Wade's 2009 regular season was impressive, but at the end of the day, it is about the playoffs; and Kobe Bryant at his peak was a much more balanced and skilled playoff performer than Wade at his.

So i'm going to have to disagree.

[Suguru101]

I think the consensus among non Laker fans is that they had pretty close peaks. TMac Lebron Wade and Kobe all kind of peaked in the same tier. The rest of their careers is what seperates them.

Umm, no. LeBron and Kobe are at a different level than guys like Tmac and Wade.

Dwayne wasn't the shooter and didn't have the size that Kobe had, and Tmac didn't have the defense and passing/driving/posting ability that LeBron has.

They are a tier below.

[aj1987]

Ah, haven't been on this site in awhile and the first thing I see is some brain dead dipshit saying Wade is better than Kobe.

The trolls never sleep here, huh?
Nobody said Wade's better that Kobe. Kobe is a top 10 player and Wade is in the 18-22 range. BUT, Wade's best season > Kobe's best season.

[imdaman99]

kobes best season was a long time ago, meanwhile wade's was 4 years back.

at this point in their careers, wade should be a lot better. injuries have cost him. or is it lebron stealing all his stats?

[aj1987]

or is it lebron stealing all his stats?
I know you hate Lebron a lot, but come on dude. Wade IS taking fewer shots, but it's mostly due to sharing the ball with another superstar and an All-Star. Injuries also robbed him from having a top 15 career.

[Vienceslav]

http://www.darkpolitricks.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/cache/8c745_httpwww.troll.meimagesfull-retardyou-went-full-retard-never-go-full-retard.jpg

[Smoke117]

Agreed.

[Jacks3]

Kobe at 22 yrs old (2001) was better than Wade has ever been.

Fact.

[AirFederer]

This is already common knowledge to non-LA fans and non Kobe-stans. We just had this thread the other day and a good majority agreed Wade peaked higher. And a VAST majority of those who said Kobe were LA fans. Don't take their ignorance personally. Wade had a fantastic peak, and the fact that it was higher than Kobe's doesn't affect Kobe's legacy one bit. Although their arguments always come down to "5 ringz yo!", they still vehemently stan against the fact that Kobe's stats just don't measure up to many other alltime greats. Unless you count totals, which are completely useless when judging a player's greatness
:applause:

[PJR]

Kobe at 22 yrs old (2001) was better than Wade has ever been.

Fact.

Actually that's an opinion. And a pretty shitty one at that.

What level of play/ability did Kobe demonstrate in 2001, that Wade didn't in 2006? :confusedshrug:

[riseagainst]

See, you just described Kobe's first 3 championships. :applause:

describes both of lebron*'s championships. One was given to him by the refs and the other was gifted to him by Jesus. :applause:

[Jacks3]

03 Kobe is pretty much a better version of Wade. He's Wade with a couple of extra inches, better efficiency, far superior skill-set (much better shooter), and better rebounding/scoring. Oh yeah, and he put up very similar numbers in a much greater defensive environment. Honestly, Wade has no case.

[INDI]

especially since there is this thing called defense.

Most people would take kobe 2013 over anything wade has done.

get realistic

[Jacks3]

Actually that's an opinion. And a pretty shitty one at that.

:
Nope. 2001 Kobe was the superior basketball player and his post-season run was better than anything Wade has ever managed, and unlike Wade, his numbers weren't inflated by the new rules that eliminated hand-checking.

I mean, it's not coincidence that's Wade's best postseason (2006) came when the new rules were more emphasized and called than ever before. There's no way in hell he's putting up 29+/7+/6+/2+ in the GOAT defensive era ala 01 Kobe. Not with his (very) limited skill-set.

[aj1987]

describes both of lebron*'s championships. One was given to him by the refs and the other was gifted to him by Jesus. :applause:
Kobe got 3 from Shaq and 2 from Gasol.

2009 Wade > Any of Kobe's seasons.

[riseagainst]

Kobe got 3 from Shaq and 2 from Gasol.

exactly. MJ got 6 from Pippen too. :applause:
Garnett, Pierce and Rondo got theirs from Scalabrine.

[STATUTORY]

the guy that was able only to take a team of Haslem, Beasley, O'neal to the 5th seed in the eastern conference and to get straight dusted by the hawks?

that guy? that season? LOL

[Jacks3]

Wade is a clear notch below the peaks of guys like Kobe/LBJ/T-Mac.

His numbers are nice, but it's hard to be too impressed when he leads his team to the 22nd ranked ORTG/offense in the league.

Compare that with what T-Mac/Kobe/LBJ did with scrubs.

2003 T-Mac: 7th best offense
2006 Kobe: 7th best offense
2009/2010 LBJ: 4th best offense

It's clear he's not having the same offensive impact as these guys and his defense certainly isn't close enough to make up the gap.

In terms of best peak wings in the post-Jordan, it's clearly:

1. LBJ
2. Kobe
3. T-Mac




4. D-Whsitle

[PJR]

Nope. 2001 Kobe was the superior basketball player and his post-season run was better than anything Wade has ever managed, and unlike Wade, his numbers weren't inflated by the new rules that eliminated hand-checking.

I mean, it's not coincidence that's Wade's best postseason (2006) came when the new rules were more emphasized and called than ever before. There's no way in hell he's putting up 29+/7+/6+/2+ in the GOAT defensive era ala 01 Kobe. Not with his (very) limited skill-set.

A whole lot of speculation and conjecture in this post, but little to no facts or numbers to back any of your baseless claims.

Like I said, Kobe in 2001 did not demonstrate any ability, and didn't have any more superior impact on games/results than Wade did in 2006.

Talking about a ' defensive era' as if Prime Wade hasn't historically ATE elite defensive teams in the post-season with better consistency than Kobe. :oldlol: Boy stop!



the guy that was able only to take a team of Haslem, Beasley, O'neal to the 5th seed in the eastern conference and to get straight dusted by the hawks?

that guy? that season? LOL




the guy who when he didn't have the best frontcourt in the league, went to the lottery, and had two first round exits for 2005-2007 in his prime? This is the guy who was on a level that Wade has never reached? LOL

[KyleKong]

exactly. MJ got 6 from Pippen too. :applause:
Garnett, Pierce and Rondo got theirs from Scalabrine.

You're half correct. :durantunimpressed:

[Jacks3]

A whole lot of speculation and conjecture in this post, but little to no facts or numbers to back any of your baseless claims.








Kobe 2001 playoffs scored on higher volume with equal efficeiny, had a higher rebounding rate, played better defense, was just as good a play-maker ( remember the triangle depresses assist numbers), took better care of the ball, and was noticeably more skilled. The defensive environment in 2001 was also much tougher than it was in 2006--look a the league average TS%/ORTG. These are all facts. Deal with it, kid.

[TonyMontana]

Umm, no. LeBron and Kobe are at a different level than guys like Tmac and Wade.

Dwayne wasn't the shooter and didn't have the size that Kobe had, and Tmac didn't have the defense and passing/driving/posting ability that LeBron has.

They are a tier below.

LeBron is certainly in a tier above guys like that, but Kobe isn't. Kobe is in the Wade/T-Mac tier. Literally the only difference is that hes had better casts for almost all of his career. If they have scrub casts your still losing in the first round(as seen by Kobe post Shaq/pre Gasol and Wade postShaq/preLeBron). Meanwhile with prime LeBron alone your guaranteed to be a "contender" and a threat to advance several rounds even with Boobie Gibson as your next best player.

[Jacks3]

the guy that was able only to take a team of Haslem, Beasley, O'neal to the 5th seed in the eastern conference and to get straight dusted by the hawks?

that guy? that season? LOL
Seriously. These Wade stans are ****ing delusional. :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

Seriously. These Wade stans are ****ing delusional. :oldlol:

You ever going to answer my questions in the other thread? Would you rather answer them here?

Please respond.

[Young X]

How can anyone say it isn't close?

Wade in '06 basically had the same season Kobe had in '09.

Wade in '09 basically had the same season Kobe had in '06.

Wade in '10 basically had the same season Kobe had in '07.

When they were put in similar situations, they had the same production, same efficiency, same individual results and same team results. The only real difference is style and media hype.

[tpols]

Wade is a clear notch below the peaks of guys like Kobe/LBJ/T-Mac.

His numbers are nice, but it's hard to be too impressed when he leads his team to the 22nd ranked ORTG/offense in the league.

Compare that with what T-Mac/Kobe/LBJ did with scrubs.

2003 T-Mac: 7th best offense
2006 Kobe: 7th best offense
2009/2010 LBJ: 4th best offense

It's clear he's not having the same offensive impact as these guys and his defense certainly isn't close enough to make up the gap.

In terms of best peak wings in the post-Jordan, it's clearly:

1. LBJ
2. Kobe
3. T-Mac




4. D-Whsitle
The ONLY argument you can really make for wade is that he had a more well rounded game that involved teammates more. Problem is that extra playmaking didnt lead to a more efficient and productivw team offense. It was much worse.


It cant be quantified but im willing to bet the extra defensive attention kobe drew opened up many more opportunities for teammates. Guys like smush parker were gettinh hype..and then once on their own..they were out of the league

[PJR]

How can anyone say it isn't close?

Wade in '06 basically had the same season Kobe had in '09.

Wade in '09 basically had the same season Kobe had in '06.

Wade in '10 basically had the same season Kobe had in '07.

When they were put in similar situations, they had the same production, same efficiency, same individual results and same team results. The only real difference is style and media hype.

Basically.

There seriously isn't a more delusional contingent of fans in sports than that of Kobe Bryant fans on the internet/discussion forums.

They aren't content with him being labeled an all time great, 2nd best shooting guard of all time. That's not enough. They want to perpetuate this complete myth that he was so far above the other hall of fame caliber players at his position(I.E Wade). That he is Jordan 2.0. Even when the eye test AND numbers don't support it.

They seriously think he's LeBron, and that he proven to overachieve with mediocre supporting casts, when there is literally NO evidence to support it. None what so ever. Beyond delusional.

We saw Kobe in his prime(Post Shaq/Pre Gasol trade) have an injury riddled lottery season, and two first round exits from 05-07(while putting up great numbers). Just like we saw Wade(Post Shaq, Pre LBJ/Bosh) have an injury riddled lottery season, and two first round exists(while putting up great numbers).



Same situation. Same results. But noooooooooooooo, Kobe is SO far above him in terms of impact and ability. It's not even close! :oldlol:

[Suguru101]

LeBron is certainly in a tier above guys like that, but Kobe isn't. Kobe is in the Wade/T-Mac tier. Literally the only difference is that hes had better casts for almost all of his career. If they have scrub casts your still losing in the first round(as seen by Kobe post Shaq/pre Gasol and Wade postShaq/preLeBron). Meanwhile with prime LeBron alone your guaranteed to be a "contender" and a threat to advance several rounds even with Boobie Gibson as your next best player.

Tony, i agree about LeBron, i feel like he's a tier above Kobe when it comes to peak play so i won't get into that..

But when it comes to Kobe being in the same tier as D-Wade and Tmac?

I don't think so. Even while being a LeBron fan, i can't disrespect Kobe that much by lumping him with those guys. Why?

Take Wade. Any skill Dwayne had on a basketball court in 2009, every move, every advantage over his competition.. Peak Kobe in also had it, with the exception of Wade being better at splitting a double team.

However, Kobe is a vastly better midrange shooter, he's deadlier from the triple-threat position, he's a better 3-point shooter and a better free-throw shooter.

Kobe also had a much better post game and while Wade is underrated defensively, Kobe is the better man defender and help defender(we all remember Doc Rivers calling him the best help defender since Pippen)... i get that Kobe slipped defensively in a major way since 2011, but Kobe at his peak was just a better defensive player.

And Kobe is 2-3 inches taller. So in my opinion, Kobe is just in a different tier.

I won't even get into Tmac because he wasn't in the same league defensively and never had the drive or championship make up that the other 3 had, and didn't even want to be a leader(Bill Simmons piece covers it with words from his coach).

So, we will have to agree to disagree.

[KG215]

Nope. 2001 Kobe was the superior basketball player and his post-season run was better than anything Wade has ever managed, and unlike Wade, his numbers weren't inflated by the new rules that eliminated hand-checking.
Nothing in this post can be defined as a fact. And Kobe's 2001 playoff run being better than anything Wade ever managed is also subjective and a matter of opinion.

[KG215]

Most people would take kobe 2013 over anything wade has done.

get realistic
No, they wouldn't.

Reading your posts lately, I can't believe I ever thought you were at least a semi-objective Kobe fan. You're as delusional and biased as it gets.

[red1]

Lol at anyone saying kobe is clearly better. 09 wade is more athletic than any version of kobe and easily has better ball-IQ. Plus his athleticism was perfectly tailored for his playstyle. Top-tier slasher among the GOAT in nba history so easily able to get quality looks and had a solid mid-range game too. That was his best year defensively as well, his help defense was insane. A blur on the court getting his hands on everything. Kobe was never on that level of efficiency and just raw impact

[STATUTORY]

Lol at anyone saying kobe is clearly better. 09 wade is more athletic than any version of kobe and easily has better ball-IQ. Plus his athleticism was perfectly tailored for his playstyle. Top-tier slasher among the GOAT in nba history so easily able to get quality looks and had a solid mid-range game too. That was his best year defensively as well, his help defense was insane. A blur on the court getting his hands on everything. Kobe was never on that level of efficiency and just raw impact

:roll: :oldlol:

you are right about him being a good slasher but he never had the complete game even at his very best.

[red1]

:roll: :oldlol:

you are right about him being a good slasher but he never had the complete game even at his very best.
No man his mid-range was on point. It is directly connected to his athletic ability/ health. It seems that when he is injured his free-throw shooting and mid-range fall off a cliff but when he is healthy it is solid. Not great but very serviceable. Kobe is godly skills great athleticism but mediocre ball IQ aka shoot over the triple team

[STATUTORY]

No man his mid-range was on point. It is directly connected to his athletic ability/ health. It seems that when he is injured his free-throw shooting and mid-range fall off a cliff but when he is healthy it is solid. Not great but very serviceable. Kobe is godly skills great athleticism but mediocre ball IQ aka shoot over the triple team

playing risk averse basketball and being judicious with shot selection =/= basketball iq

sometimes you hurt your team with your disinclination to take shots.

someone who shot .765 on free throws, .42 from 10-15 ft for the year did not have a crisp mid range shooting

[red1]

playing risk averse basketball and being judicious with shot selection =/= basketball iq

sometimes you hurt your team with your disinclination to take shots.

someone who shot .765 on free throws, .42 from 10-15 ft for the year did not have a crisp mid range shooting
Shot selection is pure basketball IQ. Are those his shooting stats for 09? Definitely average for a shooting guard but just watching the games which I did plenty of that year it was clear that his shooting was never a weakness and it opened up his slashing game. That was probably his best year shooting threes too.

[Kblaze8855]

Wade in 2009 wasnt all that far from prime Jordan in a lot of games I saw. And unlike a lot of people here talking about him I watched prime Jordan live both on tv and in person.

Dude was dropping near 50 point triple doubles and wetting game winning transition 3 point floaters.

He wasnt Jordan. But he was no more short of it than Kobe ever was.

People talking up 20 foot fadeaways like they are good shots...or like they tend to go in.

Wade at his best could get a good shot for his team at a rate ive seen nobody under 6'8'' who isnt Michael Jordan exceed. He was just walking intothe lane like nobody had a problem with it.

He had a game vs the Bulls that was right up there with the best basketball ive seen played period.

Kobe in his prime isnt gonna do anything Wade didnt with those teams. They stepped onto the floor as equals. Take one or the other its not a stupid decision. Doesnt matter where they rank in history.

Kg and Dirk are gonna rank way over Webber in history. Doesnt mean that in 01 or 02 hes not playing them as equals or that any version of them would just own him.

Just history pushing basketball out of the discussion. Wade in his prime steps on the floor with Kobe in his anyone might win the matchup. Total tossup.

[red1]

Wade in 2009 wasnt all that far from prime Jordan in a lot of games I saw. And unlike a lot of people here talking about him I watched prime Jordan live both on tv and in person.

Dude was dropping near 50 point triple doubles and wetting game winning transition 3 point floaters.

He wasnt Jordan. But he was no more short of it than Kobe ever was.

People talking up 20 foot fadeaways like they are good shots...or like they tend to go in.

Wade at his best could get a good shot for his team at a rate ive seen nobody under 6'8'' who isnt Michael Jordan exceed. He was just walking intothe lane like nobody had a problem with it.

He had a game vs the Bulls that was right up there with the best basketball ive seen played period.

Kobe in his prime isnt gonna do anything Wade didnt with those teams. They stepped onto the floor as equals. Take one or the other its not a stupid decision. Doesnt matter where they rank in history.

Kg and Dirk are gonna rank way over Webber in history. Doesnt mean that in 01 or 02 hes not playing them as equals or that any version of them would just own him.

Just history pushing basketball out of the discussion. Wade in his prime steps on the floor with Kobe in his anyone might win the matchup. Total tossup.
Great post. This is exactly what I am saying. He will never be ranked as high as kobe but when it comes to how good they were, they are easily on the same level just with different play styles. You mention this to a casual fan and they laugh you off since all they know is current hobbled wade playing on two bum knees but anyone who was paying attention a few years ago knows just how good he was.

[funnystuff]

describes both of lebron*'s championships. One was given to him by the refs and the other was gifted to him by Jesus. :applause:
Wow, you're dumb. :applause:

[ZaaaaaH]

2009 Wade gets underrated but does get overrated by these fools who thinks 06 Kobe was equal.

I been following Basketball for very long time and its amazing what Kobe haters will do to bring him down.

His 17 and not Ready
He tries to be like MJ who is the Greatest Player :confusedshrug:
Shaq carried him 3 championship Kobe did nothing for the team. :facepalm
Ai is better SG
Ray Allen is better SG
VC is better SG
He cant do it without Shaq. HE WILL NEVER WIN ANOTHER ONE. LOL
T-Mac is better SG
He Raped a White girl
Ginobili is better SG
Wade is better SG
He won 2 Championship with 2 BEST BIGS - LOL
Harden is better SG

Shit just goes on with these haters.

Even away from stats Kobe made one of the biggest impact ever since Jordan on a regular season Domination.

Away from Big Men, Kobe is the most doubled player ever since MJ and thats not a lie. Look it up if you can find a stat for that you dam stat loving geeks.

Even with stats Kobe > Wade.

Again 09 Wade was underrated.

[TheMarkMadsen]

09 wade is more athletic than any version of kobe.

No, just no.

[red1]

No, just no.
absolutely

[Heavincent]

absolutely

Guess you didn't witness Frobe.

[red1]

Guess you didn't witness Frobe.
Dawg I seen it all. Wade 09 more athletic than any version of kobe

[INDI]

No, they wouldn't.

Reading your posts lately, I can't believe I ever thought you were at least a semi-objective Kobe fan. You're as delusional and biased as it gets.

Kobe in 2013 was very good. Had the lakers been a top team, he would have been runner up for mvp (lebron was on another planet). Wade for the majority of his career has played like a glorified second option, so I would not take him over kobe in any season unless I already had a alpha that I was building around.

You forget that kobe had dwight and nash in 2013. Had they not been there I could see him top 30 ppg. I would day that his defense was subpar though, so wade would have him in that dept

[aj1987]

Wade is better SG
Nobody said that Wade is a better SG than Kobe. :facepalm
All I see is people saying that Wade's '09 season > Kobe's best season.

[INDI]

No, they wouldn't.

Reading your posts lately, I can't believe I ever thought you were at least a semi-objective Kobe fan. You're as delusional and biased as it gets.

Im objective enough. I believe kobe is 7th alltime and can climb a couple of spots after he retires. I believe that he is no where near jordan, I even believe that Lebron can end his career higher on the alltime but has alot of work to do.

what I cant stand though is because he is in the twilight of his career, many posters on this site find so many ways to discredit him its ridiculous, and maybe I take the bait way too much. Bottom line is kobe is not jordan but lebron is not kobe (yet), we gotta give players time before they can just leap frog over other greats, especially when some are still doing their thing

[TheMarkMadsen]

Nobody said that Wade is a better SG than Kobe. :facepalm
All I see is people saying that Wade's '09 season > Kobe's best season.

Kobe in 01 was arguably better than Wade in 09, Kobe really pulls away when comparing playoff performances from that year aswell

01 Kobe> 09 Wade

[aj1987]

Kobe in 01 was arguably better than Wade in 09, Kobe really pulls away when comparing playoff performances from that year aswell

01 Kobe> 09 Wade
And '06 Wade is better than '01 Kobe, IMO.

[ZaaaaaH]

Nobody said that Wade is a better SG than Kobe. :facepalm
All I see is people saying that Wade's '09 season > Kobe's best season.



So Nobody said Wade is better SG then Kobe but all you see is people saying Wade had a better Peak then Kobe.

WTF is the difference?

Bottom line Wade was never Better then Kobe in anything besides Blocking on man, Flopping and Slashing.

Kobe is better then Wade at everything even raping white girls and black men on court and off.


I swear these kids never watched lick of basketball.

[SamuraiSWISH]

One man ARMY with shit supporting cast, how far did they go, how dominant did they play, what kind of numbers did they post ... competition faced?

Lettuce be reality, cream of the crop:

MJ '89
MJ '90
LeBron 2009

Are better than ANY of the following:

Kobe 2001
McGrady 2003
Kobe 2003
Kobe 2006
Wade 2006
Kobe 2008
Wade 2009

[ZaaaaaH]

One man ARMY with shit supporting cast, how far did they go, how dominant did they play, what kind of numbers did they post ... competition faced?

Lettuce be reality, cream of the crop:

MJ '89
MJ '90
LeBron 2009

Are better than ANY of the following:

Kobe 2001
McGrady 2003
Kobe 2003
Kobe 2006
Wade 2006
Kobe 2008
Wade 2009


Please be real and put Kobe over 09 LeBron.

09 LeBron was exposed and was not even close to what MJ was doing.


This year LeBron will be the most Complete LeBron who will measure up to MJ and maybe MAYBE be even greater.

[red1]

Please be real and put Kobe over 09 LeBron.

09 LeBron was exposed and was not even close to what MJ was doing.


This year LeBron will be the most Complete LeBron who will measure up to MJ and maybe MAYBE be even greater.
Are you retarded? How was he exposed?

[aj1987]

So Nobody said Wade is better SG then Kobe but all you see is people saying Wade had a better Peak then Kobe.

WTF is the difference?
When you look at their overall careers, Kobe is better than Wade. Is that so hard hard to understand?


Bottom line Wade was never Better then Kobe in anything besides Blocking on man, Flopping and Slashing.
Wade's a better passer and for his size, Wade's a better rebounder.



I swear these kids never watched lick of basketball.
I suggest you do the same. Watch some games instead of watching highlight clips from YouTube. Start with Wade's '05 and '06 seasons.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Are you retarded? How was he exposed?
Seriously, LeBron was MUCH more dominant v.s. Orlando in 2009 than Kobe was in the Finals v.s. the same defense. If anything, 2009 was the last year I liked LeBron before he became an obnoxious, ghetto, child who quits. The last season he played the right way IMO. Scored when needed, was aggressive when needed, distributed when needed. Whatever his team needed.

If this guy means 2010 Kobe over 2010 LeBron based off what happened in the playoffs, then yes I agree. But LeBron's 2009 is one of the most impressive regular AND post seasons runs since Shaq and early 90's Jordan. Complete domination in the regular and post season.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Seriously, LeBron was MUCH more dominant v.s. Orlando in 2009 than Kobe was in the Finals v.s. the same defense. If anything, 2009 was the last year I liked LeBron before he became an obnoxious, ghetto, child who quits. The last season he played the right way IMO. Scored when needed, was aggressive when needed, distributed when needed. Whatever his team needed.

If this guy means 2010 Kobe over 2010 LeBron based off what happened in the playoffs, then yes I agree. But LeBron's 2009 is one of the most impressive regular AND post seasons runs since Shaq and early 90's Jordan. Complete domination in the regular and post season.

What about 2012?

[red1]

Seriously, LeBron was MUCH more dominant v.s. Orlando in 2009 than Kobe was in the Finals v.s. the same defense. If anything, 2009 was the last year I liked LeBron before he became an obnoxious, ghetto, child who quits. The last season he played the right way IMO. Scored when needed, was aggressive when needed, distributed when needed. Whatever his team needed.

If this guy means 2010 Kobe over 2010 LeBron based off what happened in the playoffs, then yes I agree. But LeBron's 2009 is one of the most impressive regular AND post seasons runs since Shaq and early 90's Jordan. Complete domination in the regular and post season.
Seriously. I still think 09 lebron is the best lebron. Sure his efficiency is unreal now but a lot of it has to do with the role he plays on the team. I can never see miami lebron doing what he does at 4:20

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoW8JKgM3bc

Becoming heavier and losing his quickness and first step f*cked up his perimeter game. Before anyone brings up stats I am posting with absolute certainty in my view and this is from watching the games.

[Electric Slide]

Dawg I seen it all. Wade 09 more athletic than any version of kobe
It is debatable.

For some reason a lot of Kobe fans act like Kobe was unathletic or something but young Kobe was extremely athletic. Kobe's issue has always been taking dumbass shots and falling in love with his jump shot but base on ability, their athleticism was probably the same maybe in favor of Kobe due to size and strength.

Wade had better handles though.

[red1]

It is debatable.

For some reason a lot of Kobe fans act like Kobe was unathletic or something but young Kobe was extremely athletic. Kobe's issue has always been taking dumbass shots and falling in love with his jump shot but base on ability, their athleticism was probably the same maybe in favor of Kobe due to size and strength.

Wade had better handles though.
Not really.

[Electric Slide]

Not really.
:rolleyes: You really convinced me.

I think Wade is better than Kobe but him being athletic is not the reason. Wade is just a smarter player, better motor, more unselfish, and a better two way player.

[SamuraiSWISH]

What about 2012?
Meh.

A couple impressive playoff games but a Finals that was good, not great.

His 2009 was off the charts, true prime MJ level production. Imagine how that season would've been regarded had they beat Orlando and then faced off against Kobe's Lakers in the Finals ... and he outperformed Bean one year after his MVP award.

As red1 said, back when his perimeter game was at it's peak with his explosion and quickness.

Now he's heavier, more lumbering and slow. Less fluidity. In 2012, he scored the VAST majority of his buckets in transition.

In 2009 and 2010? LeBron could do whatever he wanted in a half court set. Even against more focused playoff defensive pressure.

He can't do that as well IMO now as he did in 2009. 2012 is obviously an impressive season, one of his better because he finally won. But in terms of abilities, 2009 was his best. 2010 could've been better before he quit like a little hoe and did his little heel turn.

[Electric Slide]

Meh.

A couple impressive playoff games but a Finals that was good, not great.

His 2009 was off the charts, true prime MJ level production. As red1 said, back when his perimeter game was at it's peak with his explosion and quickness.

Now he's heavier, more lumbering and slow. Less fluidity. In 2012, he scored the VAST majority of his buckets in transition.

In 2009 and 2010? LeBron could do whatever he wanted in a half court set. Even against more focused playoff defensive pressure.

He can't do that as well IMO now as he did in 2009. 2012 is obviously an impressive season, one of his better because he finally won. But in terms of abilities, 2009 was his best. 2010 could've been better before he quit like a little hoe and did his little heel turn.
2013 was his best in terms of ability particularly post-game, defense, and jump shooting.

[red1]

:rolleyes: You really convinced me.

I think Wade is better than Kobe but him being athletic is not the reason. Wade is just a smarter player, better motor, more unselfish, and a better two way player.
You are rocketsgreatness, tbh the only thing I want to convince you of is to gtfo. On topic, wade was stronger faster quicker etc etc so I really don't know why it so hard to understand.

[SamuraiSWISH]

2013 was his best in terms of ability particularly post-game, defense, and jump shooting.
And then got locked up by Butler / Diaw in the playoffs and Finals.

2013 was his most skilled season, but he didn't produce all to the best of his abilities in the Finals.

His numbers across the board took a major dip compared to the reg season. Particularly his sissy ass padded, cherry picked FG%.

[Electric Slide]

You are rocketsgreatness, tbh the only thing I want to convince you of is to gtfo. On topic, wade was stronger faster quicker etc etc so I really don't know why it so hard to understand.
Stronger? :oldlol:

The reason why you don't want to convince me is because you can't. This is why ISH is complete garbage because of posters like yourself just say spew random shit and then resort to personal attacks when they get proven wrong. :oldlol:

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Meh.

A couple impressive playoff games but a Finals that was good, not great.

His 2009 was off the charts, true prime MJ level production. Imagine how that season would've been regarded had they beat Orlando and then faced off against Kobe's Lakers in the Finals ... and he outperformed Bean one year after his MVP award.

As red1 said, back when his perimeter game was at it's peak with his explosion and quickness.

Now he's heavier, more lumbering and slow. Less fluidity. In 2012, he scored the VAST majority of his buckets in transition.

In 2009 and 2010? LeBron could do whatever he wanted in a half court set. Even against more focused playoff defensive pressure.

He can't do that as well IMO now as he did in 2009. 2012 is obviously an impressive season, one of his better because he finally won. But in terms of abilities, 2009 was his best. 2010 could've been better before he quit like a little hoe and did his little heel turn.

True. 2012 just stands out because he finally got that ring but in terms of statistical dominance, 2009 was his best.

[SamuraiSWISH]

In regards to athleticism

Kobe:

Taller, Longer, More Flexible, More Durable (pain tolerance), Better Body Control (in air), Better Footwork

Wade - Sturdier, Stronger, Quicker, and Faster

I'd say they are equal in terms of leaping, particularly after Wade roided up before the 2009 season.

[Electric Slide]

And then got locked up by Butler / Diaw in the playoffs and Finals.

2013 was his most skilled season, but he didn't produce all to the best of his abilities in the Finals.

His numbers across the board took a major dip compared to the reg season. Particularly his sissy ass padded, cherry picked FG%.
You always talk about how the Lebron's defense on Rose was nothing special in the 2011 ECF because the Heat as a team loaded up the paint on him. Why aren't you factoring that in with Lebron in the 2013 Finals? The Spurs did the same thing with Lebron. They didn't do it when he had shooters out there but that is why Lebron played better without Wade in that series. Spurs/Bulls defense locked him up, not one guy.

Even Jimmy Buckets mentions this.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaNAo8pMliY

2013 was his most skilled season and he was just as athletic in 2009 and 2010. He just traded off his speed/quickness for strength and he did that to play PF.

[red1]

Stronger? :oldlol:

The reason why you don't want to convince me is because you can't. This is why ISH is complete garbage because of posters like yourself just say spew random shit and then resort to personal attacks when they get proven wrong. :oldlol:
Are you serious? :oldlol: I honestly dont know why you caught feelings, everything I posted was true. You are rocketsgreatness. And wade was stronger faster and quicker. How the hell is this spewing random shit? :hammerhead:

[Electric Slide]

Are you serious? :oldlol: I honestly dont know why you caught feelings, everything I posted was true. You are rocketsgreatness. And wade was stronger faster and quicker. How the hell is this spewing random shit? :hammerhead:
How was he stronger? I agree he was faster and quicker although not by much and then you are ignoring the other advantages that Kobe has like durability and size.

[red1]

How was he stronger? I agree he was faster and quicker although not by much and then you are ignoring the other advantages that Kobe has like durability and size.
Lol kobe does not have size over dwade. Wade probably has longer arms and has a stockier build. I am 90% sure that wade has a higher standing reach. There obviously isnt a recorded statistic to prove it but it is obvious that wade was stronger. The way he attacked was ferocious, you need a strong upper body to consistently play the way he did.

[Electric Slide]

Lol kobe does not have size over dwade. Wade probably has longer arms and has a stockier build. I am 90% sure that wade has a higher standing reach. There obviously isnt a recorded statistic to prove it but it is obvious that wade was stronger. The way he attacked was ferocious, you need a strong upper body to consistently play the way he did.
I'm not saying Wade isn't strong but it doesn't mean he was stronger than Kobe.

You just need an aggressive mindset and not as much confident in your jump shot like Kobe did and that is one reason why Wade was better. Kobe had the ability to get to the rim whenever he wanted to but he took jump shots because he was in love with it.

and lol at Kobe not having size over D-Wade. Kobe is 6'6-6'7, Wade is 6'2-6'4. It would be like saying Hakeem had size over Robinson

[red1]

Just looked, kobe's wingspan is 6'11 and wade is 6'10.75

[red1]

I'm not saying Wade isn't strong but it doesn't mean he was stronger than Kobe.

You just need an aggressive mindset and not as much confident in your jump shot like Kobe did and that is one reason why Wade was better. Kobe had the ability to get to the rim whenever he wanted to but he took jump shots because he was in love with it.

and lol at Kobe not having size over D-Wade. Kobe is 6'6-6'7, Wade is 6'2-6'4. It would be like saying Hakeem had size over Robinson
No man wade is 6'3.75 without shoes and kobe is something like 6'4.75. That is only an inch

[Electric Slide]

No man wade is 6'3.75 without shoes and kobe is something like 6'4.75. That is only an inch
I don't know where you got this from but most people say Wade is actually 6'2. Kobe on the other hand is at least 6'5 even without shoes.

[red1]

Wtf wades official listing has him at 6'3.75 barefoot but I dunno that feels slightly too tall. Either way there is not much of a size difference between the two just measuring them up visually. Kobe is taller of course but wade is stockier and heavier with a similar wingspan

[red1]

I don't know where you got this from but most people say Wade is actually 6'2. Kobe on the other hand is at least 6'5 even without shoes.
I know I also think that is too tall but it is the official measurement they have. Kobe has said it himself that he is 6'4.75 barefoot

[Odinn]

Kobe averaged
43.4 ppg 5.6 rpg 4.1 apg 1.8 spg 0.1 bpg 3.5 tpg .470 fg .397 3pt (.530 efg) .897 ft - 34.31 eff
in January 2006. (13 games)

Wade averaged
37.2 ppg 5.9 rpg 10.4 apg 2.9 spg 1.4 bpg 3.9 tpg .553 fg .419 3pt (.595 efg) .865 ft - 41.85 eff
from 2009-02-18 to 2009-03-14 (13 games)

---

I'm not saying Wade is better than Kobe when we compare their peaks. But Wade had one of the craziest spans if not the craziest.

[SamuraiSWISH]

You always talk about how the Lebron's defense on Rose was nothing special in the 2011 ECF because the Heat as a team loaded up the paint on him. Why aren't you factoring that in with Lebron in the 2013 Finals?
Nigguh

:eek:

You serious right now? They zoned up on Rose and made him shoot over a guy 8 inches and more athletic than him. The 2013 disrespected LeBron's shooting abilities, and Pop's knew Bron is timid with his own abilities.

Which is what it took 6 games before LeBron finally took advantage of WIDE open shots being given to him.

Literally uncontested shots. Rose's shots were contested by LeBron, with help defense shading for the drive.

LeBron was having to shoot over a fat lard ass, average at best defender who had no physical advantages over him. That's IF Boris Diaw even decided to contest the jumper. Which they often didn't.

LeBron was shook in his own abilities, beat himself for the duration of the series.

The comparison you're making is atrocious. Rose faced help defense and contested shots by a man much bigger and physically gifted than himself.

Pop and the Spurs just dared Bron's soft ass to shoot it and beat them with the jumper. Guy could've changed their defensive schemes much earlier had he pulled the trigger on their defensive disrespect in game 1.

They would've been forced to respect the jumper, guard him, and he could get back to doing him ... which is penetrating, finishing, or dishing and getting others involved.

But he didn't due to either a) lack of ability, b) lack of confidence, or c) weak basketball intelligence IN GAME scenarios.

The shit is chess not checkers. By simply being aggressive and proving his padded ass FG% and "improved jumper" to be correct at the start of the series, he would've altered SA defensive philosophy (or disrespect as it actually was) and he could've got back to his game sooner and thus finishing SA well before 7 games.

Learn the game. You're my guy, but be honest. Do you even play?

:facepalm

This is why MJ was GOAT. He could put you in a blender in ANY scenario? Give me the jumper, bury it and make you eat shit ('92 Blazers), push up on me with smaller quicker defenders ... I'm going to the cup ('93 Suns) or posting your midget ass up.

Make me be a team player, and I'm going to out Magic ... well, Magic ('91 Lakers, 31 ppg / 11 apg)

:biggums:

As I said, GOAT gonna GOAT.

[Electric Slide]

You serious right now? They zoned up on Rose and made him shoot over a guy 8 inches and more athletic than him.

The 2013 disrespected LeBron's shooting abilities, and Pop's knew Bron his timid with his own abilities.

Which is what it took 6 games before LeBron finally took advantage of WIDE open shots being given to him.

Literally uncontested shots. Rose's shots were contested by LeBron, with help defense shading for the drive.
I understand that the Spurs were sagging off Lebron badly but any time he attacked the basket or got in the paint, there were 3-4 defenders surrounding him and forcing him to get rid of the ball.

Lebron tried to attack the basket even with the sag off defense and he was actually successful at it in Game 6 when he had all the snipers out there. Even with Diaw or Leonard defending him and sagging him off 10 ft, Lebron was still able to get to the rim and make layups.

Why? Spurs didn't send as much help because it would leave shooters open. Different scenario with Wade because we know he can't shoot, hence why he played better without him.


The comparison you're making is atrocious. Rose faced help defense and contested shots by a man much bigger and physically gifted than himself.
Lebron sagged off on Rose too though and dared him to take jumpers. He didn't sag off as much as the Spurs did but he was clearly daring him to take jumpers and Rose was unsuccessful at it.

My point was more so the fact that you give Rose a pass for facing a loaded up defense, why not credit Lebron the same?

[Electric Slide]

My point was more so to say that you shouldn't say Diaw/Butler shut him down by themselves because they didn't. They don't shut him down at all. Regardless of how bad Lebron's jumper is and regardless how much they sag off on him, they will still need help defending him.

Nobody shuts down anyone 1 on 1 in today's league or ever really. Man D is extremely overrated which is why Kobe is an overrated defender anyways.

[Electric Slide]

I know I also think that is too tall but it is the official measurement they have. Kobe has said it himself that he is 6'4.75 barefoot
official measurement prol doesn't even kobe that short

[red1]

official measurement prol doesn't even kobe that short
They have him at 6'6 which is accurate still since barefoot of 6'5 is only a quarter inch off. A lot more accurate than dwade I say. If I guess I'll say dwade is actually 6'3.5ish in shoes. Definitely under 6'4

[eliteballer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvWy9liwC7U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-tXvMriU0Y

Wade can't compete with that athletically. Put Kobe in that joke of a conference and see what he does. 07 Kobe was dropping 50 point games at will...Wade doesn't compare to Kobe Age 22 and on....


“When you look back at this era there’s going to be a lot of players that you can pick from. You can talk about their greatness. This is a good era for basketball, and it would be led by Kobe Bryant – who was the greatest player in our era.”



Mastering the game interests me," said Wade. "I look at a guy like Kobe Bryant and, really, Kobe has mastered the game. He has every move in the book, he knows what spot to get to and when to raise up and when you want to master the game to the point where it's flawless

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/10005791?wade21807

[SamuraiSWISH]

07 Kobe was dropping 50 point games at will...
On the Bobcats, Grizzlies, Blazers, and Wolves. All atrocious teams with losing records.

:oldlol:

And he didn't do this at will, in the playoffs, against the lack of defensive philosophy D'Antoni Suns.

Most impressive scoring game that season was his 52 in 3 quarters on AK47 and Utah. A great man defender, and a pretty good team that season.

The rest was fluff. Particularly that tear he went on to end the season. Did he really need to score that much just to beat those ass teams? No.

[red1]

Wade can't compete with that athletically. Put Kobe in that joke of a conference and see what he does. 07 Kobe was dropping 50 point games at will...Wade doesn't compare to Kobe Age 22 and on....

This is a recurring theme with kobe stans. They all think their god is better than he actually is. :facepalm

[chazzy]

The rest was fluff. Particularly that tear he went on to end the season. Did he really need to score that much just to beat those ass teams? No.
Crazy thing is, all of those games were won by single digits

[red1]

On the Bobcats, Grizzlies, Blazers, and Wolves. All atrocious teams with losing records.

:oldlol:

And he didn't do this at will, in the playoffs, against the lack of defensive philosophy D'Antoni Suns.

Most impressive scoring game that season was his 52 in 3 quarters on AK47 and Utah. A great man defender, and a pretty good team that season.

The rest was fluff. Particularly that tear he went on to end the season. Did he really need to score that much just to beat those ass teams? No.
:applause: more internet points to you my friend

[red1]

Crazy thing is, all of those games were won by single digits
That may be true but the point is that eliteballer makes a comment about a joke of a conference and then follows that up by stating that kobe was dropping 50 point games at will. Eliteballer is a stan for real

[eliteballer]

On the Bobcats, Grizzlies, Blazers, and Wolves. All atrocious teams with losing records.

:oldlol:

And he didn't do this at will, in the playoffs, against the lack of defensive philosophy D'Antoni Suns.

Most impressive scoring game that season was his 52 in 3 quarters on AK47 and Utah. A great man defender, and a pretty good team that season.

The rest was fluff. Particularly that tear he went on to end the season. Did he really need to score that much just to beat those ass teams? No.

Show me all the other players with seasons of TEN 50 point games, and you're the one siding with the player who plays way more fluff teams in his conference...

[red1]

Show me all the other players with seasons of TEN 50 point games, and you're the one siding with the player who plays way more fluff teams in his conference...
Its not about "siding with players.":oldlol: Its about posting what actually happened and trying to be accurate and objective


Wade can't compete with that athletically. Put Kobe in that joke of a conference and see what he does. 07 Kobe was dropping 50 point games at will...Wade doesn't compare to Kobe Age 22 and on....


This just shows that you dont know shit. Not to mention the fact that I have argued with you before and remember you being a delusional stan which you have proven yet again.

[eliteballer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvWy9liwC7U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-tXvMriU0Y

Prove me wrong......I've been watching ball longer than your foreign franchise has existed.

[ZaaaaaH]

When you look at their overall careers, Kobe is better than Wade. Is that so hard hard to understand?


Wade's a better passer and for his size, Wade's a better rebounder.



I suggest you do the same. Watch some games instead of watching highlight clips from YouTube. Start with Wade's '05 and '06 seasons.

You going Full retard mode right now?

No one is talking about careers here and Who the ****k in their right mind will have Wades career over Kobes?

Wades not a better passer and his not a better rebounder get ur head out of the gutter. Please go study the triangle offense then come back to me. Im pretty dam sure u gonna act like u know everything about it after googleing it. :roll:

LOL you are telling me to watch Basketball? HHAHAAHHAHA wow That was a good one. Since 92 Basketball has been my life till today sorry to disappoint you.

[eliteballer]

Wade can't shoot beyond 10 feet. Literally. Go look up his horrific percentages beyond it on Hoopdata...and his driving game is HEAVILY reliant on screens.

[ZaaaaaH]

Are you retarded? How was he exposed?


The real question is how was he not? You tell me

[red1]

The real question is how was he not? You tell me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvWy9liwC7U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-tXvMriU0Y

Prove me wrong......I've been watching ball longer than your foreign franchise has existed.
This is what I am dealing with.
"Lebron was exposed in 2009?"
"Wade isnt even close to kobe athletically and isnt close to kobe since he was 22"

http://24.media.tumblr.com/3b84213d33c58e73e9529ab49ac5e5be/tumblr_mgc3xpp2NF1s15sl9o1_400.gif

Neither of you clowns know anything. It is actually pathetic how wrong you are tbh.

[Micku]

Wade can't shoot beyond 10 feet. Literally. Go look up his horrific percentages beyond it on Hoopdata...and his driving game is HEAVILY reliant on screens.

Not in 2009 and 2006.

In 2009, his mid range jumper was at its peak and it was comparable to Kobe.

Wade in 2009:

10ft -16: 44%
16ft- <3pt: 42%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01/shooting/2009/


Kobe in 2009:
10ft-16: 45%
16ft-<3pt: 43%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01/shooting/2009/

It was very comparable that year. Kobe had Wade beat in 3pt shooting and FTs while Wade was a better finisher at the basket. Now, what happened to Wade shot after that year is beyond me. Maybe a fluke season in terms of his mid range game, but it did happen.

[ZaaaaaH]

Seriously, LeBron was MUCH more dominant v.s. Orlando in 2009 than Kobe was in the Finals v.s. the same defense. If anything, 2009 was the last year I liked LeBron before he became an obnoxious, ghetto, child who quits. The last season he played the right way IMO. Scored when needed, was aggressive when needed, distributed when needed. Whatever his team needed.

If this guy means 2010 Kobe over 2010 LeBron based off what happened in the playoffs, then yes I agree. But LeBron's 2009 is one of the most impressive regular AND post seasons runs since Shaq and early 90's Jordan. Complete domination in the regular and post season.


You better rewatch those two series then. Even Pietrus himself who guarded both players said it himself Kobe was harder to guard that year. But of course He has no credibility over you guys. This is ISH :facepalm

No doubt LeBron put up some nice "Looking" stats due to his ball dominating ways during those Caviler years but he got exposed especially in the close out game. They dared him to shoot and punished him with Dwight everytime he drove too simple if you ask me.

Please Shaq and MJ was in Different class of Domination.

Stay away from stats sheets got dam.

[red1]

You better rewatch those two series then. Even Pietrus himself who guarded both players said it himself Kobe was harder to guard that year. But of course He has no credibility over you guys. This is ISH :facepalm

No doubt LeBron put up some nice "Looking" stats due to his ball dominating ways during those Caviler years but he got exposed especially in the close out game. They dared him to shoot and punished him with Dwight everytime he drove too simple if you ask me.

Please Shaq and MJ was in Different class of Domination.

Stay away from stats sheets got dam.
You are a special kind of retard. Cleveland couldnt guard dwight shard and hedo and meanwhile mo was choking. How does that mean lebron was exposed? He played as well as kobe ever did in his career. If that is what you call being exposed then kobe was exposed from the moment he stepped onto the court until the moment he retires.

[red1]

Not in 2009 and 2006.

In 2009, his mid range jumper was at its peak and it was comparable to Kobe.

Wade in 2009:

10ft -16: 44%
16ft- <3pt: 42%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01/shooting/2009/


Kobe in 2009:
10ft-16: 45%
16ft-<3pt: 43%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01/shooting/2009/

It was very comparable that year. Kobe had Wade beat in 3pt shooting and FTs while Wade was a better finisher at the basket. Now, what happened to Wade shot after that year is beyond me. Maybe a fluke season in terms of his mid range game, but it did happen.
:applause: just beautiful

[ZaaaaaH]

This is what I am dealing with.
"Lebron was exposed in 2009?"
"Wade isnt even close to kobe athletically and isnt close to kobe since he was 22"

http://24.media.tumblr.com/3b84213d33c58e73e9529ab49ac5e5be/tumblr_mgc3xpp2NF1s15sl9o1_400.gif

Neither of you clowns know anything. It is actually pathetic how wrong you are tbh.


LOL this is the best you can do since you cant prove me wrong with Facts so you get mad and call people names? :lol :lol

TBH you must have a small ***** since you already got owned every way.

again You dont even watch basketball go watch some hockey.

[red1]

LOL this is the best you can do since you cant prove me wrong with Facts so you get mad and call people names? :lol :lol

TBH you must have a small ***** since you already got owned every way.

again You dont even watch basketball go watch some hockey.
jesus christ you are retarded

[eliteballer]

Not in 2009 and 2006.

In 2009, his mid range jumper was at its peak and it was comparable to Kobe.

Wade in 2009:

10ft -16: 44%
16ft- <3pt: 42%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01/shooting/2009/


Kobe in 2009:
10ft-16: 45%
16ft-<3pt: 43%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01/shooting/2009/

It was very comparable that year. Kobe had Wade beat in 3pt shooting and FTs while Wade was a better finisher at the basket. Now, what happened to Wade shot after that year is beyond me. Maybe a fluke season in terms of his mid range game, but it did happen.

Look up two things: Volume and competition.

[red1]

Look up two things: Volume and competition.
I remember you overrating the shit out of kobe before and you are doing it again. Please just acknowledge that these are retarded statements

Wade can't compete with that athletically. Put Kobe in that joke of a conference and see what he does. 07 Kobe was dropping 50 point games at will...Wade doesn't compare to Kobe Age 22 and on....

[eliteballer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvWy9liwC7U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-tXvMriU0Y

Prove.Me.Wrong

[eliteballer]

Whats Wade gonna do against this?:roll:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idBaZWbH1qQ

[Electric Slide]

Look up two things: Volume and competition.
lol

both seasons used were 2009.

[ZaaaaaH]

You are a special kind of retard. Cleveland couldnt guard dwight shard and hedo and meanwhile mo was choking. How does that mean lebron was exposed? He played as well as kobe ever did in his career. If that is what you call being exposed then kobe was exposed from the moment he stepped onto the court until the moment he retires.


You must be going FULL RETARD RAPTOR mode right now.
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/images/photos/000/342/026/bosh_crop_340x234.jpg?1268980251



So lets get this straight You NEVER watched a lick of basketball in your life right? Cuz I think we all know what LeBrons weakness was for a long time and Orlando happened to be the team that exposed him since out of the East Dwight is the only legit BIG to challenge someone big as LeBron down the Paint when he drives and the KEY THING here is LeBron did/does not get Double team out in the PERIMETER LIKE KOBE DOES which is MUCH MUCH easier for the defense to adjust.

What does the Pacers do? Same shit but they just dont have enough offensive power to win games but they do a dam good job against him. What did the Dallas do? Let him Shoot and have Chandler Park in the Paint. Even this year WTF did the SPURS DO? You gotta be delusional and ****en FULL RETARD not to know this about LeBron. Only thing Different this year was LEBRON BROUGHT IT Game 7 the way he should play if they keep playing him like that and this time he didnt SHY AWAY and stepped up.

I should understand ur from Toronto and follow stat sheets all day.

Why m i even talking basketball with someone with no knowledge of the game. :facepalm

[ZaaaaaH]

Kobe averaged
43.4 ppg 5.6 rpg 4.1 apg 1.8 spg 0.1 bpg 3.5 tpg .470 fg .397 3pt (.530 efg) .897 ft - 34.31 eff
in January 2006. (13 games)

Wade averaged
37.2 ppg 5.9 rpg 10.4 apg 2.9 spg 1.4 bpg 3.9 tpg .553 fg .419 3pt (.595 efg) .865 ft - 41.85 eff
from 2009-02-18 to 2009-03-14 (13 games)

---

I'm not saying Wade is better than Kobe when we compare their peaks. But Wade had one of the craziest spans if not the craziest.


if ur gonna dig that deep, please dig deeper and find out which teams they played during those 13 game spans.

[eliteballer]

“When you look back at this era there’s going to be a lot of players that you can pick from. You can talk about their greatness. This is a good era for basketball, and it would be led by Kobe Bryant – who was the greatest player in our era.”



Mastering the game interests me," said Wade. "I look at a guy like Kobe Bryant and, really, Kobe has mastered the game. He has every move in the book, he knows what spot to get to and when to raise up and when you want to master the game to the point where it's flawless

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/10005791?wade21807

Wade himself disagrees with the groupies in this thread:roll:

[ZaaaaaH]

jesus christ you are retarded


LOL MAD :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Electric Slide]

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/10005791?wade21807

Wade himself disagrees with the groupies in this thread:roll:
Yea because mean the stuff they say to the public all the time right? :oldlol:

[ZaaaaaH]

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/10005791?wade21807

Wade himself disagrees with the groupies in this thread:roll:


Yea but it doesnt matter cuz Wade is HUMBLE and doesnt know shit about basketball. RED1 the FULL RETARD knows more then Wade himself cuz he jerks off to him all night.


GTFO here.

[fozi]

GTFO with that bullshit.. same dude who dropped as a 5th seed to the mfing hawks..

Lakers with Kobe shouldve upseted a much better suns team but fell short.. either way Kobe dropping 50, gamewinners in the playoffs, 40 point months, 50 points every other day, 60+ multiple times.. One of the most dominant displays of offense in the history of basketball. Wade just cant touch it..


Vast majority of people who say Wade was better are kobe haters or 12 yrs old like OP and never even saw either play in their primes


Whatever the case, there was NOWHERE near as much excitement around Wades 09 as their was around the things Kobe was doing in 06 and 07.. His offensive feats were some of the most impressive ever


Kobe was like peak mike tyson.. video game shit. Wades like buster douglass, had one, two good runs and faded out

:applause:

[Akhenaten]

So let me get this straight:

1. Prime Kobe is clearly more athletic than Wade has ever been, and is on the same level or better when it comes to getting to the basket and finishing.

2. He has a much better 3pt, midrange and FT shot than Wade.

3. Prime Kobe is also a better man AND help defender than Wade (blocks, steals, deflections, disrupting offense)


You Kobe fans do realize that if all these things are true, Kobe Bryant is better than ANYONE who's ever played basketball? :eek:

I'm being serious here, think about it. It's pretty much universally agreed that Wade can't shoot, with that said;

prime Wade: 27/5/7 49% 2stl, 1blk, 19 FGA (04-11)
playoffs: 27/6/6 49% 2stl, 1blk 20 FGA

prime Kobe: 29/6/5 46% 2 stl 22 FGA (01-09)
playoffs: 29/6/5 45% 2stl, 23 FGA


So Wade, with lesser athletic ability, a far inferior jumpshot, a far inferior skillset and lesser help defender post the same stats as a guy who's clearly superior in EVERY facet of the game?

So prime Kobe has the same or better driving, slashing, open court speed, halfcourt quickness and agility, leaping, strength ability as a guy who in his prime avg 8 shots at the basket at a 67% finishing rate AND has far superior shooting ability?


so basically Kobe > or = JORDAN
Is this what Tpols, Zaaaah, Jacks3 etc are saying?:biggums:

[red1]

You must be going FULL RETARD RAPTOR mode right now.
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/images/photos/000/342/026/bosh_crop_340x234.jpg?1268980251



So lets get this straight You NEVER watched a lick of basketball in your life right? Cuz I think we all know what LeBrons weakness was for a long time and Orlando happened to be the team that exposed him since out of the East Dwight is the only legit BIG to challenge someone big as LeBron down the Paint when he drives and the KEY THING here is LeBron did/does not get Double team out in the PERIMETER LIKE KOBE DOES which is MUCH MUCH easier for the defense to adjust.

What does the Pacers do? Same shit but they just dont have enough offensive power to win games but they do a dam good job against him. What did the Dallas do? Let him Shoot and have Chandler Park in the Paint. Even this year WTF did the SPURS DO? You gotta be delusional and ****en FULL RETARD not to know this about LeBron. Only thing Different this year was LEBRON BROUGHT IT Game 7 the way he should play if they keep playing him like that and this time he didnt SHY AWAY and stepped up.

I should understand ur from Toronto and follow stat sheets all day.

Why m i even talking basketball with someone with no knowledge of the game. :facepalm
You obviously dont know know what you are talking about. Anyone who says lebron was exposed by orlando in 2009 and then tries to defend that view clearly has no clue about why that series was won or lost

[tpols]

So let me get this straight:

1. Prime Kobe is clearly more athletic than Wade has ever been, and is on the same level or better when it comes to getting to the basket and finishing.

2. He has a much better 3pt, midrange and FT shot than Wade.

3. Prime Kobe is also a better man AND help defender than Wade (blocks, steals, deflections, disrupting offense)


You Kobe fans do realize that if all these things are true, Kobe Bryant is better than ANYONE who's ever played basketball? :eek:

I'm being serious here, think about it. It's pretty much universally agreed that Wade can't shoot, with that said;

prime Wade: 27/5/7 49% 2stl, 1blk, 19 FGA (04-11)
playoffs: 27/6/6 49% 2stl, 1blk 20 FGA

prime Kobe: 29/6/5 46% 2 stl 22 FGA (01-09)
playoffs: 29/6/5 45% 2stl, 23 FGA


So Wade, with lesser athletic ability, a far inferior jumpshot, a far inferior skillset and lesser help defender post the same stats as a guy who's clearly superior in EVERY facet of the game?

So prime Kobe has the same or better driving, slashing, open court speed, halfcourt quickness and agility, leaping, strength ability as a guy who in his prime avg 8 shots at the basket at a 67% finishing rate AND has far superior shooting ability?


so basically Kobe > or = JORDAN
Is this what Tpols, Zaaaah, Jacks3 etc are saying?:biggums:
I never said Kobe was more athletic or the better help defender.. Never said he was better slasher or finisher either. He was the more skilled/tactical/offensively explosive player.. and was able to create offense at will moreso than Wade could.. again imo.

Defensively, Wade and Kobe arent that far off.. one has an advantage in one area and one in another.


Its like people cant live with subtle differences.. its gotta be everything or nothing. Wade is either much greater at his peak than kobe(a shock value statement meant for trolling like in OP), or since others say Kobe is better, they must think hes better than Jordan, and God himself.

No.. not really. More I think about it the closer it gets. Defintely thought Kobe played better in the playoffs though and had overall more impressive regular season + playoffs. It is a debate though.

[LEFT4DEAD]

Its very clear that Wade's 09 season was one of the best ever from any perimeter player in history. So many classic moments that I remember even today, shoulder to shoulder with the best Jordan's seasons. That tells that its not a hit on Kobe or anything. It was just one of those seasons that happens once in a while. Wade was Jordanesque that year.

[HurricaneKid]

The arrogance of the Kobe crowd is insane to me. Kobe is statistically the most overrated player in the history of the game. By any measure (outside of Championships) he isn't anywhere near his presumed level. We can look at stats that were BUILT FOR HIM like PER (which rewards FGAs made at even a 35% level) and he just doesn't stack up to the legend.

The most predictive (read: useful) advanced statistic is the Regulated Adjusted Plus Minus. It takes all the noise out of the +/- stat and comes up with a players actual contribution to the team's offense and defense and their total contribution to the ending scores of his teams games. Here is the last ~20+ years or so:

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/

Again, Kobe just doesn't stack up to his contemporaries much less the all time greats.

I readily admit he is a blast to watch when he gets going and he is as graceful a scorer as there is to watch. But rather than pointing to a Tuesday night game against Toronto when they were a laughable team (81 pts), or a 4 game stretch against 3 lotto teams and a team that got swept in the 1st rd (50 pt streak- actually came off a 15 game stretch where they went 3-12), I would much rather see how he fared in big games and there is simply far too significant a history of coming up small.

He is still a great player who has had a great career. But he isn't the best of his generation (TD and LBJ are). And it sure as hell isn't dumb to ask if his contemporaries best was better than his. Because its inarguably the case.

[tpols]

^^^lol just looked at that for 2006 and 2007..

According to RAPM, Ben Wallace was the most impactful player in the league in 2006. The next most impactful? Andrei Kirilenko. Manu Ginobili ahead of Lebron James.


In 2007.. Marcus Camby and Baron Davis were in the top 10.

In 1991, Terry Porter is ahead of Michael Jordan.. In 1992, Clyde Drexler and John Stockton are ahead of Michael Jordan.

In 1996, both Scottie Pippen and Dikembe Mutumbo are ahead of Michael Jordan.

In 97, Vlade Divac was ranked over MJ.. think about that.


Seems this stat is very flawed or their are a ton of players who are severely underrated and impactfully there were years Scottie was moire important than Jordan.. Dont know who could agree with some of these rankings.

I could list a million more but only clicked on a few years at random.

[HurricaneKid]

For the record, I believe 09 was Kobe's best season. He was inarguably the best player on a Laker Championship team for the only time of his career. But I also don't think he was worthy of 1st team all NBA that year. Wade was decidedly better that season and LeBron's 09 season is probably my favorite season of any player to watch since early Jordan. CP3 was definitively the best PG and D12 and TD rounded out the easiest 1st team ever (they were top 5 in RAPM, top 5 in PER, etc). Of course CP3 and TD didn't even make 1st team but thats a writers problem.

[Grey Dawn]

Wade - refs = turd. Any year. It's too bad Harden decided that he wanted to be like wade and Paul. They are actors not bballers

[ZaaaaaH]

You obviously dont know know what you are talking about. Anyone who says lebron was exposed by orlando in 2009 and then tries to defend that view clearly has no clue about why that series was won or lost


Your obviously so lost. He was Dumb ass because he put up great stats does not mean he wasn't. :facepalm

Again teams been doing this for years, WTF do you not understand about that.

And for once just stfu if ur not gonna explain urself.

[ZaaaaaH]

So let me get this straight:

1. Prime Kobe is clearly more athletic than Wade has ever been, and is on the same level or better when it comes to getting to the basket and finishing.

2. He has a much better 3pt, midrange and FT shot than Wade.

3. Prime Kobe is also a better man AND help defender than Wade (blocks, steals, deflections, disrupting offense)


You Kobe fans do realize that if all these things are true, Kobe Bryant is better than ANYONE who's ever played basketball? :eek:

I'm being serious here, think about it. It's pretty much universally agreed that Wade can't shoot, with that said;

prime Wade: 27/5/7 49% 2stl, 1blk, 19 FGA (04-11)
playoffs: 27/6/6 49% 2stl, 1blk 20 FGA

prime Kobe: 29/6/5 46% 2 stl 22 FGA (01-09)
playoffs: 29/6/5 45% 2stl, 23 FGA


So Wade, with lesser athletic ability, a far inferior jumpshot, a far inferior skillset and lesser help defender post the same stats as a guy who's clearly superior in EVERY facet of the game?

So prime Kobe has the same or better driving, slashing, open court speed, halfcourt quickness and agility, leaping, strength ability as a guy who in his prime avg 8 shots at the basket at a 67% finishing rate AND has far superior shooting ability?


so basically Kobe > or = JORDAN
Is this what Tpols, Zaaaah, Jacks3 etc are saying?:biggums:


Another FULL RETARD Mode. :applause:

Lets put words in peoples mouth to make my argument sound better.:facepalm

[HurricaneKid]

^^^lol just looked at that for 2006 and 2007..

According to RAPM, Ben Wallace was the most impactful player in the league in 2006. The next most impactful? Andrei Kirilenko. Manu Ginobili ahead of Lebron James.


In 2007.. Marcus Camby and Baron Davis were in the top 10.

In 1991, Terry Porter is ahead of Michael Jordan.. In 1992, Clyde Drexler and John Stockton are ahead of Michael Jordan.

In 1996, both Scottie Pippen and Dikembe Mutumbo are ahead of Michael Jordan.

In 97, Vlade Divac was ranked over MJ.. think about that.


Seems this stat is very flawed or their are a ton of players who are severely underrated and impactfully there were years Scottie was moire important than Jordan.. Dont know who could agree with some of these rankings.

I could list a million more but only clicked on a few years at random.

Its not cumulative. Think of is as per36 except its per 100 possessions. A lot of these guys played 5000-8000 fewer possessions than the guys you are comparing them to.

I don't know why you are so surprised elite defensive players would have an enormous impact.

Feel free to look at the one for the full decade. Its still a per possession computation.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Its not cumulative. Think of is as per36 except its per 100 possessions. A lot of these guys played 5000-8000 fewer possessions than the guys you are comparing them to.

I don't know why you are so surprised elite defensive players would have an enormous impact.

Feel free to look at the one for the full decade. Its still a per possession computation.

You said this wa the best way to measure impact

Ak47>>> Lebron

Stockton and Pippen >> Jordan
:rolleyes:

[Jacks3]

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/10005791?wade21807

Wade himself disagrees with the groupies in this thread:roll:
:oldlol:

[Jacks3]

The ONLY argument you can really make for wade is that he had a more well rounded game that involved teammates more. Problem is that extra playmaking didnt lead to a more efficient and productivw team offense. It was much worse.


It cant be quantified but im willing to bet the extra defensive attention kobe drew opened up many more opportunities for teammates. Guys like smush parker were gettinh hype..and then once on their own..they were out of the league
Wade didn't have a more well-rounded game. He got a couple of extra assists because he was playing in a very assist friendly system with all the P/R action and drives and kicks. We saw a 34-yr old Kobe play in the exact same type over the second half of 2013 (40 games) and look: 7.5 APG.

Peak Kobe, meanwhile, was playing in the very assist depressing triangle. So Wade got more assists, but Kobe was putting more pressure on defenses with his far superior skill-set and unpredictability, and that's why he was able to anchor much better offenses. Peak Kobe would never, ever been have on a team that ranked 22nd on offense like Wade in 09. He was simply too good.

And you're definitely right about Kobe having a better track-record in terms of creating opportunities. That's why you see guys consistently seeing huge increases in their efficeiny when they play next to him.

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/4982/kobe.jpg

Peak Kobe is easily the more dominant player. Wade has never inspired the type of awe and fear around the league that Kobe did in 2006/2007.

[DMAVS41]

Isn't it a bit odd that Kobe almost always grades out worse objectively on virtually any stat in these comparisons?

[riseagainst]

Wade didn't have a more well-rounded game. He got a couple of extra assists because he was playing in a very assist friendly system with all the P/R action and drives and kicks. We saw a 34-yr old Kobe play in the exact same type over the second half of 2013 (40 games) and look: 7.5 APG.

Peak Kobe, meanwhile, was playing in the very assist depressing triangle. So Wade got more assists, but Kobe was putting more pressure on defenses with his far superior skill-set and unpredictability, and that's why he was able to anchor much better offenses. Peak Kobe would never, ever been have on a team that ranked 22nd on offense like Wade in 09. He was simply too good.

And you're definitely right about Kobe having a better track-record in terms of creating opportunities. That's why you see guys consistently seeing huge increases in their efficeiny when they play next to him.

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/4982/kobe.jpg

Peak Kobe is easily the more dominant player. Wade has never inspired the type of awe and fear around the league that Kobe did in 2006/2007.


geez, Kobe makes his teammates' freethrows worse. What a terrible teammate and inspiration.

[Akhenaten]

Wade didn't have a more well-rounded game. He got a couple of extra assists because he was playing in a very assist friendly system with all the P/R action and drives and kicks. We saw a 34-yr old Kobe play in the exact same type over the second half of 2013 (40 games) and look: 7.5 APG.



Yeah and his scoring went down 5 ppg to 25 ppg in order to do it
he went out of his way to avg that number to prove a point, it's not something that comes naturally to him.

just as in 06 when he went on a scoring tear, his playmaking and defense was non-existent.

Wade's best offensive year coincided with his best defensive and playmaking year, i.e. well-rounded.

far as Ortg
swap out 09 Haslem/Beasley for 06 Odom
then put Wade/Heat in the Western Conf especially with no D playing teams like the Warriors, Suns, Sac etc playing run n gun West Conf basketball

I guarantee you that Ortg will flip flop
old ass Iverson went to the West and had his most efficient season ever 27 ppg 46%

offense is free flowing in the West, East is grind out slow and plodding
this is why Kobe puts up monster numbers in WCF (2010 WCF, prime example) but then shoots 40% in the Finals.

[PJR]

LOL at the triangle offense being an "assist depressing" offense.

What a crock of shit.

The same system that Scottie Pippen averaged 6+ assists multiple times? Including 7 in 92? :oldlol:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Yeah and his scoring went down 5 ppg to 25 ppg in order to do it
he went out of his way to avg that number to prove a point, it's not something that comes naturally to him.

just as in 06 when he went on a scoring tear, his playmaking and defense was non-existent.

Wade's best offensive year coincided with his best defensive and playmaking year, i.e. well-rounded.

far as Ortg
swap out 09 Haslem/Beasley for 06 Odom
then put Wade/Heat in the Western Conf especially with no D playing teams like the Warriors, Suns, Sac etc playing run n gun West Conf basketball

I guarantee you that Ortg will flip flop
old ass Iverson went to the West and had his most efficient season ever 27 ppg 46%

offense is free flowing in the West, East is grind out slow and plodding
this is why Kobe puts up monster numbers in WCF (2010 WCF, prime example) but then shoots 40% in the Finals.
:biggums:

My gawd, that ETHER. Kobe does struggle against the slower, grind it out physicality of the Eastern Conference. Very good post. Truth, too.

I don't understand Jacks3 and other Kobe stans. Relentlessly underrating Wade's peak / prime. Why? Because they know it's basically comparable if not better than Kobe's peak / prime?

We all know Kobe will ranked higher when it's all done. More longevity, durability, possibly rings and he has that MVP award. But the reality is they are very close as players when healthy in terms of production and impact.

Even arguable that Wade is better when both are at their best. Both have had ridiculous regular season stretches, MVP caliber seasons, carried bad teams ... yet couldn't get out the first round, etc.

Wade's 2009 and 2010 cancels out Kobe's 2006 and 2007.

Wade's 2006 run cancels out Kobe's 2001 run.

Wade's 2011 and 2012 run cancels out Kobe's 2009 and 2010 run.

They're virtually identical career wise when at their best. The only true separation between the two is longevity. Which Kobe favorably has ... Wade's 2nd half of 2007, a season I might add where he was better than 2006 arguably equal to his 2009 form pre injury. MVP caliber stuff.

And then his 2008 season, 2013 playoffs are all skid marks on Wade's career. Kobe's got the longevity, the more hyped up market, and an MVP award. At their best it's a wash.

[Doranku]

:biggums:

My gawd, that ETHER. Kobe does struggle against the slower, grind it out physicality of the Eastern Conference. Very good post. Truth, too.

I don't understand Jacks3 and other Kobe stans. Relentlessly underrating Wade's peak / prime. Why? Because they know it's basically comparable if not better than Kobe's peak / prime?

We all know Kobe will ranked higher when it's all done. More longevity, durability, possibly rings and he has that MVP award. But the reality is they are very close as players when healthy in terms of production and impact.

Even arguable that Wade is better when both are at their best. Both have had ridiculous regular season stretches, MVP caliber seasons, carried bad teams ... yet couldn't get out the first round, etc.

Wade's 2009 and 2010 cancels out Kobe's 2006 and 2007.

Wade's 2006 run cancels out Kobe's 2001 run.

Wade's 2011 and 2012 run cancels out Kobe's 2009 and 2010 run.

They're virtually identical career wise when at their best. The only true separation between the two is longevity. Which Kobe favorably has ... Wade's 2nd half of 2007, a season I might add where he was better than 2006 arguably equal to his 2009 form pre injury. MVP caliber stuff.

And then his 2008 season, 2013 playoffs are all skid marks on Wade's career. Kobe's got the longevity, the more hyped up market, and an MVP award. At their best it's a wash.
:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

[aj1987]

Yeah and his scoring went down 5 ppg to 25 ppg in order to do it
he went out of his way to avg that number to prove a point, it's not something that comes naturally to him.

just as in 06 when he went on a scoring tear, his playmaking and defense was non-existent.

Wade's best offensive year coincided with his best defensive and playmaking year, i.e. well-rounded.

far as Ortg
swap out 09 Haslem/Beasley for 06 Odom
then put Wade/Heat in the Western Conf especially with no D playing teams like the Warriors, Suns, Sac etc playing run n gun West Conf basketball

I guarantee you that Ortg will flip flop
old ass Iverson went to the West and had his most efficient season ever 27 ppg 46%

offense is free flowing in the West, East is grind out slow and plodding
this is why Kobe puts up monster numbers in WCF (2010 WCF, prime example) but then shoots 40% in the Finals.



LOL at the triangle offense being an "assist depressing" offense.

What a crock of shit.

The same system that Scottie Pippen averaged 6+ assists multiple times? Including 7 in 92?


Dat ether!:eek:

Inb4 D-Whistle sucks and Kobe in his rookie year was better than Wade. :facepalm Kobetards :facepalm

[SamuraiSWISH]

:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:
Kobe struggled v.s. OKC, Gasol carried the load offensively ... Kobe's defense was critical. The rest of the playoffs Kobe was the best player on the floor for the Lakers.

Wade struggled v.s. Chicago, LeBron carried the load offensively ... Wade's defense and clutch play was critical. In the other series Wade was tied for best player, or was the best (as he was in the very competitive Celtics series)

Gasol performed well enough in the 2010 Finals to supplement Kobe's production as well as his struggles.

LeBron DIDN'T perform well enough in the 2011 Finals to supplement Wade's AMAZING production and performance through the first 4 or 5 games.

The only difference is Kobe won in 2010 with his help, and Wade lost in 2011 and out on another Fmvp because his help failed him.

IE: LeBron

[riseagainst]

Dat ether!:eek:

Inb4 D-Whistle sucks and Kobe in his rookie year was better than Wade. :facepalm Kobetards :facepalm


not really an ether.

Pippen's highest APG of 7.0 in 92 with the triangle he had a AST% of 25.8

Kobe's highest APG of 5.9 with the triangle had AST% of 27.2

[Dragonyeuw]

Peak Kobe is easily the more dominant player. Wade has never inspired the type of awe and fear around the league that Kobe did in 2006/2007.

Agree with the fear aspect. As great as Wade was in 2009, Kobe in 2006-2007 must have literally scared the shit out of you if you were defending him, especially when he would go on those NBA JAM 'on-fire mode' scoring runs.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Agree with the fear aspect. As great as Wade was in 2009, Kobe in 2006-2007 must have literally scared the shit out of you if you were defending him, especially when he would go on those NBA JAM 'on-fire mode' scoring runs.
I agree with that too. The fear of embarrassment amongst very pride, ego filled, young, athletic alpha males is an underrated attribute when ranking players.

That intimidation game factor. The only players in my life time I've seen who shook other players in that regard where they could be fearful or just their presence inspired fear and respect was: MJ, Iverson, Hakeem, Shaq, and Kobe.

Players I've noticed aren't fearful of team first, pass first kind of guys like Magic, Kidd, Nash, LeBron, etc. Only players that could embarrass them on an individual level.

[PJR]

not really an ether.

Pippen's highest APG of 7.0 in 92 with the triangle he had a AST% of 25.8

Kobe's highest APG of 5.9 with the triangle had AST% of 27.2

If one player is capable of accounting for over a quarter of the assist totals(on average) on a team running the triple post, than clearly it isn't an "assist depressing offense" then. :confusedshrug:

Kobe didn't put up the assists averages that Wade did during his best years because.......he's not as willing of a passer. That simple. Has nothing to do with the system.




And to expound on Akhenaten and SamSWISH earlier post, and the theories about the contrasting styles in the East/West Conferences.

Career splits against the East/West

Bryant

East

24.7 ppg
5.2 rpg
4.8 apg
.446%


West

26.0 ppg
5.4 rpg
4.7 apg
.458%


Wade

East

24.2 ppg
5.1 rpg
5.9 apg
.489%

West

25.6 ppg
5.0 rpg
6.4 apg
.489%


Wade has maintained his efficiency against both conferences, and puts up better all around numbers against Western opponents, While Kobe's efficiency dips against the East.

It's funny how there is almost never a piece of objective information that supports any wild theory that Bryant fanatics throw out.

"D.WHISTLE PLAYS IN THE EAST. MAMBA WOULD DESTROY THAT WEAK CONFERENCE!"

Uh, clearly that isn't the case. And is quite the exaggeration to say the least.

[DMAVS41]

If one player is capable of accounting for over a quarter of the assist totals(on average) on a team running the triple post, than clearly it isn't an "assist depressing offense" then. :confusedshrug:

Kobe didn't put up the assists averages that Wade did during his best years because.......he's not as willing of a passer. That simple. Has nothing to do with the system.




And to expound on Akhenaten and SamSWISH earlier post, and the theories about the contrasting styles in the East/West Conferences.

Career splits against the East/West

Bryant

East

24.7 ppg
5.2 rpg
4.8 apg
.446%


West

26.0 ppg
5.4 rpg
4.7 apg
.458%


Wade

East

24.2 ppg
5.1 rpg
5.9 apg
.489%

West

25.6 ppg
5.0 rpg
6.4 apg
.489%


Wade has maintained his efficiency against both conferences, and puts up better all around numbers against Western opponents, While Kobe's efficiency dips against the East.

It's funny how there is almost never a piece of objective information that supports any wild theory that Bryant fanatics throw out.

"D.WHISTLE PLAYS IN THE EAST. MAMBA WOULD DESTROY THAT WEAK CONFERENCE!"

Uh, clearly that isn't the case. And is quite the exaggeration to say the least.


The bold is the point. Either almost every objective measure is biased against Kobe (LOL)...or objectively...Kobe isn't as good as his die hard fans think.

Not hard to figure out which one it is.

[tpols]

Its not cumulative. Think of is as per36 except its per 100 possessions. A lot of these guys played 5000-8000 fewer possessions than the guys you are comparing them to.

I don't know why you are so surprised elite defensive players would have an enormous impact.

Feel free to look at the one for the full decade. Its still a per possession computation.
So if RAPM is accurate in assessing a players impact, Id assume you believe Ben Wallace to be the most underrated player ever. I cant really tell how accurate it is, but a lot of the great defensive big men do seem to impact the game waaay more than some of the guards.

Ben Wallaces defense was a 9.8 in 2004 the year the pistons were absolutely dominant defensively.

Michael Jordans offense in '91 and '92 was a 3.8, and in 93 it was a 4.6.

So clearly Ben Wallaces defensive impact was far more dominant than MJs scoring.


Offensively, guys like Nash, Lebron, Shaq are all more dominant than MJ in the regular season. They have way better offensive rankings. And in his era pass first players like stockton, magic and price have great o ratings too. Better than MJ.

And MJs defense is always hovering around a 1.. meanwhile big men like robinson, mutumbo, wallace, duncan, KG, etc all have ratings at 7+. Meaning his defensive impact is far far less.


Basically RAPM says individual scoring is extremely overrated and pass first types and big men defense are the best things in basketball.

You have to be ready to turn your GOAT list upside down if you go by this info

[Jacks3]

Agree with the fear aspect. As great as Wade was in 2009, Kobe in 2006-2007 must have literally scared the shit out of you if you were defending him, especially when he would go on those NBA JAM 'on-fire mode' scoring runs.
Exactly. Peak Kobe would literally demoralize guys. Wade was never on that level.

[DMAVS41]

So if RAPM is accurate in assessing a players impact, Id assume you believe Ben Wallace to be the most underrated player ever. I cant really tell how accurate it is, but a lot of the great defensive big men do seem to impact the game waaay more than some of the guards.

Ben Wallaces defense was a 9.8 in 2004 the year the pistons were absolutely dominant defensively.

Michael Jordans offense in '91 and '92 was a 3.8, and in 93 it was a 4.6.

So clearly Ben Wallaces defensive impact was far more dominant than MJs scoring.


Offensively, guys like Nash, Lebron, Shaq are all more dominant than MJ in the regular season. They have way better offensive rankings. And in his era pass first players like stockton, magic and price have great o ratings too. Better than MJ.

And MJs defense is always hovering around a 1.. meanwhile big men like robinson, mutumbo, wallace, duncan, KG, etc all have ratings at 7+. Meaning his defensive impact is far far less.


Basically RAPM says individual scoring is extremely overrated and pass first types and big men defense are the best things in basketball.

You have to be ready to turn your GOAT list upside down if you go by this info

RAPM is just basically a more accurate version of APM (which is a more accurate version of plus minus)

It's still all based off plus minus. And using plus minus solely to determine the value of a player is flawed...especially on single season sample sizes.

However, I believe the stat does have value. For example...you often make the claim that Kobe's defensive impact is much greater than Dirk's. But with these kind of stats, you can see that statement actually doesn't reflect what you claim.

That doesn't mean Kobe isn't a better defender than Dirk, but it does prevent you from claiming large impact differences as we can see this in the data.

Again though...this should be just one piece of data used and no stat should be the end all be all.

But I keep bringing it up...don't you think it's odd that Kobe scores worse than you expect on these objective measures virtually every time?

I mean...at some point we can't just throw out PER, winshares per 48, ortg, drtg, apm, rapm, clutch stats, elimination game stats, game 7 stats...etc...just because Kobe isn't high up in every single one.

[ZaaaaaH]

LOL at the triangle offense being an "assist depressing" offense.

What a crock of shit.

The same system that Scottie Pippen averaged 6+ assists multiple times? Including 7 in 92? :oldlol:


LOL I love exposing these tards. :lol

So 92 he almost avg 7 assist not being the main focal point in offense.

But after MJ retried once he became the main focal point of the offense what happened to his assist numbers? Enlighten me son !


Kids dont get how Triangle works but always trying to find holes to discredit others players without having a full knowledge of things. :facepalm

[ZaaaaaH]

Yeah and his scoring went down 5 ppg to 25 ppg in order to do it
he went out of his way to avg that number to prove a point, it's not something that comes naturally to him.

just as in 06 when he went on a scoring tear, his playmaking and defense was non-existent.

Wade's best offensive year coincided with his best defensive and playmaking year, i.e. well-rounded.

far as Ortg
swap out 09 Haslem/Beasley for 06 Odom
then put Wade/Heat in the Western Conf especially with no D playing teams like the Warriors, Suns, Sac etc playing run n gun West Conf basketball

I guarantee you that Ortg will flip flop
old ass Iverson went to the West and had his most efficient season ever 27 ppg 46%

offense is free flowing in the West, East is grind out slow and plodding
this is why Kobe puts up monster numbers in WCF (2010 WCF, prime example) but then shoots 40% in the Finals.


Bias kids everywhere these days. :bowdown: :bowdown:

2013 Kobe is Old so Im gonna leave it at that.

06 Kobe dosent know how to playmake WOW LOL :roll: :roll: :roll: With no Defense LOL HAHAHAAHA :lol

We talking about Odom here? :facepalm

Iverson got more help when he went to the nugs and didnt need to make every play. How do u not get that?

LOL West East Bs. Im dam sure you dont even know what kinda system these teams play and just making up some bs West run and gun and East is slow pace. :facepalm

[ZaaaaaH]

Dat ether!:eek:

Inb4 D-Whistle sucks and Kobe in his rookie year was better than Wade. :facepalm Kobetards :facepalm


You dont say a ****en word besides I LOVE WADES **** :applause:

[tpols]

RAPM is just basically a more accurate version of APM (which is a more accurate version of plus minus)

It's still all based off plus minus. And using plus minus solely to determine the value of a player is flawed...especially on single season sample sizes.

However, I believe the stat does have value. For example...you often make the claim that Kobe's defensive impact is much greater than Dirk's. But with these kind of stats, you can see that statement actually doesn't reflect what you claim.

That doesn't mean Kobe isn't a better defender than Dirk, but it does prevent you from claiming large impact differences as we can see this in the data.

Again though...this should be just one piece of data used and no stat should be the end all be all.

But I keep bringing it up...don't you think it's odd that Kobe scores worse than you expect on these objective measures virtually every time?

I mean...at some point we can't just throw out PER, winshares per 48, ortg, drtg, apm, rapm, clutch stats, elimination game stats, game 7 stats...etc...just because Kobe isn't high up in every single one.

Dmavs, look at MJ's numbers for his first threepeat. He averaged a 1.0. Dirk in his mvp year was a 1.0.

According to this stat Dirk and prime MJ have the same defensive impact! Do you believe that?

Gary Payton in his prime hovers around 0 for this stat. Meaning his teams are no better with him than they are without him on defense. IDK if I believe that.


It seems this stat severely underestimates man defense in favor of help. In the regular season that makes sense. In the playoffs where it's small sample size, it's more about matchups and how you can defend the other teams best player.

[aj1987]

You dont say a ****en word besides I LOVE WADES **** :applause:
What's there to say? I'd take Wade's '09 and '06 seasons over any of Kobe's.

PJR, Akhenatem, Samurai, etc. have been destroying you crusty **** Kobetards with facts and all you do is act like a retard.

Again, Wade's '06 and '09 seasons > any of Kobe's.

[fpliii]

Dmavs, look at MJ's numbers for his first threepeat. He averaged a 1.0. Dirk in his mvp year was a 1.0.

According to this stat Dirk and prime MJ have the same defensive impact! Do you believe that?

Gary Payton in his prime hovers around 0 for this stat. Meaning his teams are no better with him than they are without him on defense. IDK if I believe that.


It seems this stat severely underestimates man defense in favor of help. In the regular season that makes sense. In the playoffs where it's small sample size, it's more about matchups and how you can defend the other teams best player.

Those aren't RAPM numbers, the creator took them offline and put up a new stat. Everything on stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com is now xRAPM, a flavor of RAPM using box score stats as part of the prior.

The seasons prior to 00-01 are actually using box scores for everything, and are just a regression, since he didn't use the play-by-play data for those seasons, since it wasn't online. The NBA website added play-by-play data for four more seasons (going back to 96-97, including playoffs), but he hasn't used that on his site. In speaking to him via email, he noted that he's working for a team now and doesn't have time to update using the data. All of the actual RAPM numbers are here:

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/


So if RAPM is accurate in assessing a players impact, Id assume you believe Ben Wallace to be the most underrated player ever. I cant really tell how accurate it is, but a lot of the great defensive big men do seem to impact the game waaay more than some of the guards.

Ben Wallaces defense was a 9.8 in 2004 the year the pistons were absolutely dominant defensively.

Michael Jordans offense in '91 and '92 was a 3.8, and in 93 it was a 4.6.

So clearly Ben Wallaces defensive impact was far more dominant than MJs scoring.


Offensively, guys like Nash, Lebron, Shaq are all more dominant than MJ in the regular season. They have way better offensive rankings. And in his era pass first players like stockton, magic and price have great o ratings too. Better than MJ.

And MJs defense is always hovering around a 1.. meanwhile big men like robinson, mutumbo, wallace, duncan, KG, etc all have ratings at 7+. Meaning his defensive impact is far far less.


Basically RAPM says individual scoring is extremely overrated and pass first types and big men defense are the best things in basketball.

You have to be ready to turn your GOAT list upside down if you go by this info

I don't see anything wrong with the bolded, and I agree with the underlined statement 100% (the italicized section is likely true, but again the play-by-play data doesn't exist prior to 96-97 so we'll never know). Again, the stuff before 00-01 is not actual RAPM, but fake RAPM/xRAPM, so it's impossible to draw conclusions about MJ and such. The creator discussed the differences on the APBRMetrics board in a few post.

EDIT: Just saw your edit:


It seems this stat severely underestimates man defense in favor of help. In the regular season that makes sense. In the playoffs where it's small sample size, it's more about matchups and how you can defend the other teams best player.

Disagree with this, but you're entitled to your opinion.

[KG215]

Not quite like going out by posting a bunch of tranny picks ala Clippersfan86, but close.

[DMAVS41]

Dmavs, look at MJ's numbers for his first threepeat. He averaged a 1.0. Dirk in his mvp year was a 1.0.

According to this stat Dirk and prime MJ have the same defensive impact! Do you believe that?

Gary Payton in his prime hovers around 0 for this stat. Meaning his teams are no better with him than they are without him on defense. IDK if I believe that.


It seems this stat severely underestimates man defense in favor of help. In the regular season that makes sense. In the playoffs where it's small sample size, it's more about matchups and how you can defend the other teams best player.

I was under the impression that those weren't actually rapm numbers from MJ.

While of course I think MJ had a greater defensive impact, the fact remains that perimeter defensive impact is grossly over-rated in a broad sense.

Even if the numbers were essentially 50% off....it would illustrate this point.

At some point, with Kobe, you have to actually see the impact of his defense. If his teams aren't getting any better with him on the floor on defense...I don't see how one can argue that his defensive impact is much greater than another defender producing similar or even better results.

I of course think Kobe is a better defensive player than Dirk for example, but how much that actually impacts the game or team defense...I'd argue not much at all.

You see this in these kind of numbers. Defensive numbers. Individual defensive numbers. Defensive ratings...etc.

Like I said above, at some point we can't just ignore all objective measures because Kobe doesn't grade out as well as you'd like.

Either all the formulas were designed in a way that is biased towards Kobe...or Kobe doesn't measure up as well objectively. I think the answer is obvious.

[ZaaaaaH]

What's there to say? I'd take Wade's '09 and '06 seasons over any of Kobe's.

PJR, Akhenatem, Samurai, etc. have been destroying you crusty **** Kobetards with facts and all you do is act like a retard.

Again, Wade's '06 and '09 seasons > any of Kobe's.

No doubt you love Wade, and his nuts got you delusional to listen to these stans. :applause:

Its funny how u think they are "Destroying" with facts. LOL :lol Half of them dont even know wtf they are talking about. :facepalm

[TheMarkMadsen]

Holy shit mods can we clean this thread up?

[ZaaaaaH]

I was under the impression that those weren't actually rapm numbers from MJ.

While of course I think MJ had a greater defensive impact, the fact remains that perimeter defensive impact is grossly over-rated in a broad sense.

Even if the numbers were essentially 50% off....it would illustrate this point.

At some point, with Kobe, you have to actually see the impact of his defense. If his teams aren't getting any better with him on the floor on defense...I don't see how one can argue that his defensive impact is much greater than another defender producing similar or even better results.

I of course think Kobe is a better defensive player than Dirk for example, but how much that actually impacts the game or team defense...I'd argue not much at all.

You see this in these kind of numbers. Defensive numbers. Individual defensive numbers. Defensive ratings...etc.

Like I said above, at some point we can't just ignore all objective measures because Kobe doesn't grade out as well as you'd like.

Either all the formulas were designed in a way that is biased towards Kobe...or Kobe doesn't measure up as well objectively. I think the answer is obvious.

And to sum it up Basketball is a Offensive sports. How hard is that to understand? Gtfo here with bs defensive stats. Defense go much deeper then bunch of bs numbers that these Geeks jot down and have BOTS accumulate.

[Hoopz2332]

offense is free flowing in the West, East is grind out slow and plodding
this is why Kobe puts up monster numbers in WCF (2010 WCF, prime example) but then shoots 40% in the Finals.

true

[aj1987]

No doubt you love Wade, and his nuts got you delusional to listen to these stans. :applause:

Its funny how u think they are "Destroying" with facts. LOL :lol Half of them dont even know wtf they are talking about. :facepalm
You still have to come up with FACTS. All you're posting in this thread are your OPINIONS and insulting people who are talking basketball. A braindead chipmunk would actually come up with better arguments than you.

Once again, 2006 & 2009 Wade > Any version of Kobe.

[DMAVS41]

And to sum it up Basketball is a Offensive sports. How hard is that to understand? Gtfo here with bs defensive stats. Defense go much deeper then bunch of bs numbers that these Geeks jot down and have BOTS accumulate.

The problem is...there has to be a measurable impact difference for it to even matter.

Take a look at all the actual impact defenders and you'll see a measurable difference with those players on the floor. With a guy like Kobe...you just don't see it.

Now, of course there is more to it than that. Kobe has an ability to defend at an elite level in certain possessions and can ramp it up...etc. But not only is that hard to quantify....but it's also hard to really determine because our sample size from watching the games is so small.

Again though...why does it seem that these stats reflect things more in line with other players than they do with Kobe? It just seems to me the answer is obvious.

[Doranku]

Kobe struggled v.s. OKC, Gasol carried the load offensively ... Kobe's defense was critical. The rest of the playoffs Kobe was the best player on the floor for the Lakers.

Wade struggled v.s. Chicago, LeBron carried the load offensively ... Wade's defense and clutch play was critical. In the other series Wade was tied for best player, or was the best (as he was in the very competitive Celtics series)

Gasol performed well enough in the 2010 Finals to supplement Kobe's production as well as his struggles.

LeBron DIDN'T perform well enough in the 2011 Finals to supplement Wade's AMAZING production and performance through the first 4 or 5 games.

The only difference is Kobe won in 2010 with his help, and Wade lost in 2011 and out on another Fmvp because his help failed him.

IE: LeBron

What about 2009? You seem to be comparing only Kobe 2010 and Wade 2011. I'll concede that Kobe 2010 and Wade 2011 are comparable. Wade was sensational against the Celtics and against the Mavericks in the finals. Personally, I think Kobe 2010 was a little better because he didn't have a series close to as bad as Wade had against Chicago, but I can accept them being a wash... but what about Kobe 2009 and Wade 2012?

Kobe was easily, unquestionably the best player (on both sides) in every series during 2009 en route to a championship and finals MVP. Was Wade the best player in ANY series during 2012?

[Ne 1]

His 2009 was off the charts

Eh. I do think there were actually some areas where LeBron could have stepped up in 2009, in particular his defense. His defense was pretty poor in the '09 series vs Orlando and practically exposed. I remember people were talking about how he was a DPOY candidate that year and he showed how he wasn't even close in that ECF. They assigned him to Rafer Alston and made him sag off of him and the thing is LeBron didn't make much of an impact on help defense. He didn't really bother Dwight, though it was hard to do so because of how deep he was setting up, but I don't remember him pressuring the ball to take time off the clock. Kobe's help defense on Dwight in the Finals was a good bit better and often stripped him or forced a deflection.

He also wasn't that good in some of the fourth quarters like missing 5 free throws in game 3 and a whole bunch of turnovers in game 4 late in the game. Game 6 was also pretty weak, 2 points in the fourth.

It is true he didn't get much help vs Orlando although I don't think that his performance was as astonishing as some people consider it. That goes with saying that Mo, West, Z, Varejao actually all played well in the elimination game (not the entire series, but they were on in game 6), but Lebron pretty much quit at half time.

[Ne 1]

Wade is a clear notch below the peaks of guys like Kobe/LBJ/T-Mac.


Actually, 2003 T-Mac IMO is better than any version of Wade. Not only is he considerably more skilled, but he put up his numbers in a tougher defensive era.

T-Mac was the better offensive player though. He scored more on equal efficiency, did a much better job taking care of the ball, and was a more naturally gifted passer. Wade is a slightly better play-maker due his quickness advantage, but that doesn't make up for all the areas T-Mac has him beat.

[HurricaneKid]

You said this wa the best way to measure impact

Ak47>>> Lebron

Stockton and Pippen >> Jordan
:rolleyes:

AK47 in his best year WAS as good as LeBron on his worst. And I'm as close to a LeBron-stan as there is.

And Jordan had by far the best over the course of the decade but yeah, at the end of his career wasn't the best player in the league.

[chazzy]

Didn't Wade also show up near the bottom of those RAPM defensive rankings?

[chazzy]

For the record, I believe 09 was Kobe's best season
There's no case. That was the year he visibly lost a step from his peak play, more so in the regular season.

[DMAVS41]

Didn't Wade also show up near the bottom of those RAPM defensive rankings?

He did in a few years, but he was usually higher than Kobe on most years...and didn't dip into the negative as often as Kobe did.

But I don't think it's a good line of thinking to claim Wade is a better defender than Kobe...I'd actually go with Kobe...as the impact is just negligible either way though.

[2010splash]

He definitely was. Kobe never had the cumulative impact that 2009 Wade had on both offense and defense. At best he was a better streak scorer, but he wasn't the disruptive fiend on defense or the playmaker Wade was. Nor was he anywhere near as efficient. Heck, the only reason he put up more points was because he attempted more shots.

[chazzy]

Nor was he anywhere near as efficient.
Haha

[ZaaaaaH]

The problem is...there has to be a measurable impact difference for it to even matter.

Take a look at all the actual impact defenders and you'll see a measurable difference with those players on the floor. With a guy like Kobe...you just don't see it.

Now, of course there is more to it than that. Kobe has an ability to defend at an elite level in certain possessions and can ramp it up...etc. But not only is that hard to quantify....but it's also hard to really determine because our sample size from watching the games is so small.

Again though...why does it seem that these stats reflect things more in line with other players than they do with Kobe? It just seems to me the answer is obvious.


No doubt I understand what you are saying about the defense end. And yes Bigs are much more impactful then Guards but thats another topic for a rainy day.





Let me just explain in a simple way why Basketball values Offense more then Defense.


Basketball is a Offensive sports because even if you have a defender guarding you its still hard to put the ball in the basket depending on range.

Soccer, hockey , football they all rely heavily on defense because without defense its a cake walk to score.

You kick a soccer ball from middle of the field with no defender I can score much easier then shooting a basketball from half court. Same goes for Hockey and Football.

Look at the Scoring perspective, Basketball is a VERY High scoring game why? Cuz Better offense beats better Defense just about everytime in this game.


Its called Good D but Better O. Offense will win all day in basketball over Defense.

This is why Players like Kobe who has SKY High Offensive Arsenal skills will be Valued more.

I can break it down preschool level for red1 and aj1987 if ya dont get that.

[aj1987]

No doubt I understand what you are saying about the defense end. And yes Bigs are much more impactful then Guards but thats another topic for a rainy day.





Let me just explain in a simple way why Basketball values Offense more then Defense.


Basketball is a Offensive sports because even if you have a defender guarding you its still hard to put the ball in the basket depending on range.

Soccer, hockey , football they all rely heavily on defense because without defense its a cake walk to score.

You kick a soccer ball from middle of the field with no defender I can score much easier then shooting a basketball from half court. Same goes for Hockey and Football.

Look at the Scoring perspective, Basketball is a VERY High scoring game why? Cuz Better offense beats better Defense just about everytime in this game.


Its called Good D but Better O. Offense will win all day in basketball over Defense.

This is why Players like Kobe who has SKY High Offensive Arsenal skills will be Valued more.

I can break it down preschool level for red1 and aj1987 if ya dont get that.
:roll:
You do realize that half-court shots is not the only way to score in basketball, right?

[red1]

I can break it down preschool level for red1 and aj1987 if ya dont get that.
What? You are the one who said lebron was exposed in 2009. I still dont think you know what the word exposed means

[SamuraiSWISH]

What? You are the one who said lebron was exposed in 2009. I still dont think you know what the word exposed means
The 2009 playoffs basically exposed the truth that LeBron had claimed the throne as best player in the league. Comfortably.

In the regular season at various times Kobe and Wade made claims. Bron's 2009 playoffs put that all to bed. In that regard he was "exposed"

:oldlol:

[red1]

The 2009 playoffs basically exposed the truth that LeBron had claimed the throne as best player in the league. Comfortably.

In the regular season at various times Kobe and Wade made claims. Bron's 2009 playoffs put that all to bed. In that regard he was "exposed"

:oldlol:
2009 lebron is better than any version of kobe tbh

[SamuraiSWISH]

2009 lebron is better than any version of kobe tbh
I agree. LeBron's 2009 ranks up there with '89 - '93 MJ.

Even though 2012 and 2013 LeBron are more mature, and more skilled. I'm confident in saying 2009 and 2010 LeBron are the best of his abilities and capabilities.

2009 gets the nod as the absolute best LeBron because he played the game the right way. He had the right mentality and approach. When to score, when to distribute. Didn't quit like a bitch. And he could physically do things he can't anymore. The best he's ever been IMO.

Shame Mo Williams destroyed his chance of getting to the Finals in 2009 to face Kobe, take the throne of the league from him by force and get a ring to crown that season for him.

He was a one man army who didn't quit. And then the heel turn in 2010 to LeQuitness. Douche status confirmed.

[red1]

I agree. LeBron's 2009 ranks up there with '89 - '93 MJ.

Even though 2012 and 2013 LeBron are more mature, and more skilled. I'm confident in saying 2009 and 2010 LeBron are the best of his abilities and capabilities.

2009 gets the nod as the absolute best LeBron because he played the game the right way. He had the right mentality and approach. When to score, when to distribute. Didn't quit like a bitch. And he could physically do things he can't anymore. The best he's ever been IMO.

Shame Mo Williams destroyed his chance of getting to the Finals in 2009 to face Kobe, take the throne of the league from him by force and get a ring to crown that season for him.

He was a one man army who didn't quit. And then the heel turn in 2010 to LeQuitness. Douche status confirmed.
Agree with all of this

[SamuraiSWISH]

Agree with all of this
I would have been proud to be a fan and to have "witnessed" if he continued to play and compete like he did in 2009 for the rest of his career. Instead he pulled the curtain back on his lack of character the next season, becoming completely unlikable.

[DMAVS41]

No doubt I understand what you are saying about the defense end. And yes Bigs are much more impactful then Guards but thats another topic for a rainy day.





Let me just explain in a simple way why Basketball values Offense more then Defense.


Basketball is a Offensive sports because even if you have a defender guarding you its still hard to put the ball in the basket depending on range.

Soccer, hockey , football they all rely heavily on defense because without defense its a cake walk to score.

You kick a soccer ball from middle of the field with no defender I can score much easier then shooting a basketball from half court. Same goes for Hockey and Football.

Look at the Scoring perspective, Basketball is a VERY High scoring game why? Cuz Better offense beats better Defense just about everytime in this game.


Its called Good D but Better O. Offense will win all day in basketball over Defense.

This is why Players like Kobe who has SKY High Offensive Arsenal skills will be Valued more.

I can break it down preschool level for red1 and aj1987 if ya dont get that.

I agree that offense is more important.

Here's the problem...Kobe is over-rated offensively as well. We can get into that if you want, but it's pretty obvious.

[Fresh Kid]

:roll: i cant breathe! i can't phuckin breathe!!

[ILLsmak]

I think Wade at his best is equal to Kobe at his best. I don't think you can say one is better than the other. People stay hating, though, on both ends. Both are top level scoring wings.

Wade can push the point more and Kobe can score more.

-Smak

[Fresh Kid]

I think Wade at his best is equal to Kobe at his best. I don't think you can say one is better than the other. People stay hating, though, on both ends. Both are top level scoring wings.

Wade can push the point more and Kobe can score more.

-Smak
:biggums:

[ILLsmak]

No doubt I understand what you are saying about the defense end. And yes Bigs are much more impactful then Guards but thats another topic for a rainy day.





Let me just explain in a simple way why Basketball values Offense more then Defense.


Basketball is a Offensive sports because even if you have a defender guarding you its still hard to put the ball in the basket depending on range.

Soccer, hockey , football they all rely heavily on defense because without defense its a cake walk to score.

You kick a soccer ball from middle of the field with no defender I can score much easier then shooting a basketball from half court. Same goes for Hockey and Football.

Look at the Scoring perspective, Basketball is a VERY High scoring game why? Cuz Better offense beats better Defense just about everytime in this game.


Its called Good D but Better O. Offense will win all day in basketball over Defense.

This is why Players like Kobe who has SKY High Offensive Arsenal skills will be Valued more.

I can break it down preschool level for red1 and aj1987 if ya dont get that.

double post. But on the other hand, that would make defense more valuable. I don't understand why you're making that argument. I understand what you're trying to say, but I don't agree at all.

The more scoring there is, the more one stop matters, however. Then you have to value rebounding. Shooting is something that is hit or miss. Obviously, you can have a bad defensive day if you get demoralized or they call a bunch of fouls. Same with rebounding except for the way the ball bounces.

Offense is mad overrated when it comes to superstars because as we've seen, nearly everybody in the NBA is capable of scoring from a spot. Likely at a higher percentage than Kobe is considering that Kobe takes many bad shots. One can even say "Could Kobe out shoot Mario Chalmers in a 3 point contest?" I wonder. But Kobe changes the defense, so that's worth a lot.

Defense wins. A clutch stop is more important. If you think of all the FTs given, not fouling and getting a stop + securing the rebound is more important. Even if you lower someone's percentage by 5-10% with "good D" that's still huge over the course of a game or series. Especially if you can secure the ball after they miss and/or outlet it for the easy score.

Now, we can say with the overall reluctance to play D in the NBA how it's hard to say a wing-defender matters... because 1 wing player, even if they are stuck on the best scorer, can't change a defense. But just talking about it more conceptually.

-Smak

[7_cody]

This is where stats are misleading. Kobe is able to take hero shots, bailout shots, difficult shots and entertain the hell out of the crowd while still putting up Wade's numbers. He plays a difficult game, but a very entertaining game and yet manages to stay as efficient to players like Wade that cherry pick their shots and play close the basket whenever possible.

Anyone that watched both throughout their careers knows that Wade was never as good as Kobe.

[Fresh Kid]

Sorry, but if you surround prime Kobe with a bunch of college players, he'd find a way to beat the f*cking lowly Hawks.

Prime Wade got outplayed by Joe Johnson in Game 7. Let that sink in.
good times:oldlol:

[aj1987]

This is where stats are misleading. Kobe is able to take hero shots, bailout shots, difficult shots and entertain the hell out of the crowd while still putting up Wade's numbers. He plays a difficult game, but a very entertaining game and yet manages to stay as efficient to players like Wade that cherry pick their shots and play close the basket whenever possible.

Anyone that watched both throughout their careers knows that Wade was never as good as Kobe.
That's called low IQ basketball and one of the reasons why Shaq doesn't have 4 FMVP's.

Jeez, what's with this board worshiping shot jacking guards?

[PJR]

Only a Bryant fanatic would peddle 'hero ball' shots as some positive thing. :oldlol:

[ZaaaaaH]

:roll:
You do realize that half-court shots is not the only way to score in basketball, right?


You do realize that you love nip picking small things just to benefit your argument, right?

Show me one time you wrote something legit in this tread.

Come at me when you get little bit older. :oldlol:

[ZaaaaaH]

What? You are the one who said lebron was exposed in 2009. I still dont think you know what the word exposed means


Go learn how to read then come back. Maybe you might understand wtf is going on.

[ZaaaaaH]

I agree that offense is more important.

Here's the problem...Kobe is over-rated offensively as well. We can get into that if you want, but it's pretty obvious.



Enlighten me please. :D

[red1]

Go learn how to read then come back. Maybe you might understand wtf is going on.
At the end of the day it doesn't matter what you post to try to justify or rationalize your view, the fact of the matter is that your original post was wrong. "Lebron was exposed in 2009" is false. That's all I'm saying

[ZaaaaaH]

I agree. LeBron's 2009 ranks up there with '89 - '93 MJ.

Even though 2012 and 2013 LeBron are more mature, and more skilled. I'm confident in saying 2009 and 2010 LeBron are the best of his abilities and capabilities.

2009 gets the nod as the absolute best LeBron because he played the game the right way. He had the right mentality and approach. When to score, when to distribute. Didn't quit like a bitch. And he could physically do things he can't anymore. The best he's ever been IMO.

Shame Mo Williams destroyed his chance of getting to the Finals in 2009 to face Kobe, take the throne of the league from him by force and get a ring to crown that season for him.

He was a one man army who didn't quit. And then the heel turn in 2010 to LeQuitness. Douche status confirmed.


Trust me Im a Huge LeBron fan since 2001, and No he was not good as MJ. :facepalm

No doubt I love the way he played during Cleveland days then now but that does not make him a better player.

LeBron just never had the dominating handles/crossover and the Mid range to 3pt jump shot to Dominate. Its not hard to see this if you actually played real basketball.

Its so hilarious that these kids think he didnt get exposed during the Magic series because he put up some amazing stats but if you actually watch every game and every min of that series its so Obvious that was Orlando's plan to let him One vs One outside in the perimeter and try to make him shoot or have him drive and run into Howard who is bigger and even Stronger with a just as durable body. While doing that they have all the shooters locked down man to man. The Key part of it is they were getting LeBron tired and drained. LeBron had no 1vs1 goto move where he can score easily at will. He always had to force his way in. Why the *** ya think he shot so many dam FT. Its call a series for a reason.


This is some preschool basketball shitt not sure why I even have to explain these kinda things.:facepalm

and please go ahead and show me more stats and numbers and your hypothetical opinions.

[ZaaaaaH]

At the end of the day it doesn't matter what you post to try to justify or rationalize your view, the fact of the matter is that your original post was wrong. "Lebron was exposed in 2009" is false. That's all I'm saying


LOL :lol

LeBron is Laughing with me right now. :roll: :roll: :roll:


This kid knows nothing about basketball. Again stick with hockey.

[aj1987]

You do realize that you love nip picking small things just to benefit your argument, right?

Show me one time you wrote something legit in this tread.

Come at me when you get little bit older. :oldlol:
Nitpicking? You are just plain retarded, if you think defense is not as important as offense. Just go back the past 10 years. Most of the teams who won the championship had a better defensive rating than offensive rating. Why do you think the Nash era Suns never won a ring? Do you think MJ would've won from '96-'98 without being one of the best defensive teams?

:facepalm




Trust me Im a Huge LeBron fan since 2001, and No he was not good as MJ.

No doubt I love the way he played during Cleveland days then now but that does not make him a better player.

LeBron just never had the dominating handles/crossover and the Mid range to 3pt jump shot to Dominate. Its not hard to see this if you actually played real basketball.

Its so hilarious that these kids think he didnt get exposed during the Magic series because he put up some amazing stats but if you actually watch every game and every min of that series its so Obvious that was Orlando's plan to let him One vs One outside in the perimeter and try to make him shoot or have him drive and run into Howard who is bigger and even Stronger with a just as durable body. While doing that they have all the shooters locked down man to man. The Key part of it is they were getting LeBron tired and drained. LeBron had no 1vs1 goto move where he can score easily at will. He always had to force his way in. Why the *** ya think he shot so many dam FT. Its call a series for a reason.


This is some preschool basketball shitt not sure why I even have to explain these kinda things.

and please go ahead and show me more stats and numbers and your hypothetical opinions.


Run along, you little troll.

[KG215]

I thought I commented on this already, but I guess not.

If you're going to try and use one his last two years in Cleveland to say he got "exposed", how can anyone that watched those two seasons and playoffs come to the conclusion that 2009 was the year he got "exposed"? I mean if you wanted to make some half-assed lame-ass attempt to say he was exposed at some point, why not use 2010 and the Celtics series? Not the year he averaged 35-9-7-2-1 on 51% FG and 62% TS.

[ZaaaaaH]

Nitpicking? You are just plain retarded, if you think defense is not as important as offense. Just go back the past 10 years. Most of the teams who won the championship had a better defensive rating than offensive rating. Why do you think the Nash era Suns never won a ring? Do you think MJ would've won from '96-'98 without being one of the best defensive teams?

:facepalm





Run along, you little troll.



For once if you read, just for once maybe you would not be consider retarded. :lol


No one said defense is not important?:confusedshrug: Defense is more of a TEAM Based Son. Also MJ's offense is FAR Superior then his Defense :facepalm :hammerhead: , but once again you love doing what you do nip picking like a little bitch and gets proven wrong everytime .:lol


And I think I know who Im a fan of but the difference between me and you is that Im not a stan or a hater, I love Basketball and you love Wadesballs. :rockon:

[ZaaaaaH]

I thought I commented on this already, but I guess not.

If you're going to try and use one his last two years in Cleveland to say he got "exposed", how can anyone that watched those two seasons and playoffs come to the conclusion that 2009 was the year he got "exposed"? I mean if you wanted to make some half-assed lame-ass attempt to say he was exposed at some point, why not use 2010 and the Celtics series? Not the year he averaged 35-9-7-2-1 on 51% FG and 62% TS.


What do you know LOL numbers and stats and kids telling me how great he was during that series. :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

WE ALL LOVE LEBRON FOR HIS STATS :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:






:facepalm

[aj1987]

For once if you read, just for once maybe you would not be consider retarded. :lol


No one said defense is not important?:confusedshrug: Defense is more of a TEAM Based Son. Also MJ's offense is FAR Superior then his Defense :facepalm :hammerhead: , but once again you love doing what you do nip picking like a little bitch and gets proven wrong everytime .:lol


And I think I know who Im a fan of but the difference between me and you is that Im not a stan or a hater, I love Basketball and you love Wadesballs. :rockon:
This is going to be my last reply to you. Wade in 2006 had a GREAT RS (in his 3rd year), a dominant playoff run and one of the greatest Finals ever. In 2009, he had one of the best seasons ever for an SG (not named Jordan) on both ends of the court. A person who actually watches basketball would pick a player who is dominant on both ends of the court. Not just the offensive end. That's why "offensively dominant" players like AI and T-Mac haven't won shit. It's pretty useless being "offensively dominant" if you give up what you score, on the defensive end.

All I see in this thread is Kobe *** guzzlers (like yourself) supporting him, while most of the others, including fans of other teams, are picking Wade.

Go and play with your "special" friends, kid.

EDIT: Your posts have more emoticons that actual words, idiot.

[bizil]

D-Wade is indeed a beast no doubt. But the Super Six peak value wise perimeter guys for me are MJ, Kobe, Lebron, Magic, Bird, and Big O. These five I think are on their own playing field. Then u got guys like Wade, West, Dr.J, Barry, and Baylor. All of these guys are great. But at their peak, the Super Six guys were all considered at times the best player in the world, other than Big O probably because of Wilt. As great as Wade is, he was never considered the best in the world. And that's MAINLY due to Bron and Kobe.

[KG215]

What do you know LOL numbers and stats and kids telling me how great he was during that series. :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

WE ALL LOVE LEBRON FOR HIS STATS :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:






:facepalm
I was just using the stats as a quick reference to point out how good he was in the playoffs that year. I watched the games, too, and he was far from "exposed". I don't even know what you're basing this on but I can't think of any kind of sound, logical argument that could be based on "LeBron got exposed in 2009". They swept the first two rounds and I remember LeBron having some "holy s*** this guy is really f***ing good" type games. I don't remember exact/specific numbers, but I know he was flirting with triple-doubles most games in the first two rounds, and it felt like he was having that type of impact watching the games. And didn't he have a 40-something point triple-double against the Hawks? I remember it seeming like, even before you get to the Orlando series, he was having 32-8-8 type games every night...and his team went 8-0 in the process.

I mean it goes beyond just the numbers in 2009. He was passing the eye test, too. So don't sit there and try to tell me, with a straight face, that he got exposed in 2009.

[red1]

LOL :lol

LeBron is Laughing with me right now. :roll: :roll: :roll:


This kid knows nothing about basketball. Again stick with hockey.
Stop arguing son, you are not going to talk your way out of this one. :oldlol: Speaking as someone who saw every single minute of every single game in that series, you are factually wrong. Period. He did not get exposed in any way. Mo Williams was exposed. The lack of perimeter defenders with length was exposed. Big Z's age and lack of mobility was exposed. Mike browns inability to draw up a go-to play was exposed. Lebron was NOT exposed.

[ZaaaaaH]

This is going to be my last reply to you. Wade in 2006 had a GREAT RS (in his 3rd year), a dominant playoff run and one of the greatest Finals ever. In 2009, he had one of the best seasons ever for an SG (not named Jordan) on both ends of the court. A person who actually watches basketball would pick a player who is dominant on both ends of the court. Not just the offensive end. That's why "offensively dominant" players like AI and T-Mac haven't won shit. It's pretty useless being "offensively dominant" if you give up what you score, on the defensive end.

All I see in this thread is Kobe *** guzzlers (like yourself) supporting him, while most of the others, including fans of other teams, are picking Wade.

Go and play with your "special" friends, kid.

EDIT: Your posts have more emoticons that actual words, idiot.


It better be ur last post cuz I been ripping u everytime. Everytime you post is either numbers or YOUR OPINION. You wrote ZERO facts about what happened besides looking up ur little numbers on NBA.com


2006 Wade had a Dominant Playoffs and One of THE BEST FINALS? :roll: GET WADES BALLS OUT OF UR MOUTH.:facepalm AGAIN this is ur opinion. 2006 Heat team had GREAT Team Defense and Experience with one of the Best Coach in History. These are Facts. Wade was a little boy who was just rising and for you non basketball lovers to disrespect and not give any credit to Shaq and Alonzo who was dominating in defense of end is so ****en mind blowing.


Again get Wades balls out of ur mouth. Its so obvious you love numbers because you never watch the games. Person who actually WATCHED basketball would not disrespect AI or T-mac.:facepalm and we can go in Depth why they didnt win but then again you are so ****en clueless you think a Guard can change the entire defense. :facepalm

Kobe? LOL Its amazing how you got so offended when you dont even know anything about basketball. Anyone with a right knowledge who has been following basketball instead of NBA.com will tell you Kobe's better 9/10 times. The funny thing is you discredit the Actual basketball players opinion but you weigh Red1 and SamruiSmushs opinion more. Thats how Delusional you are. :lol


Bottom line Dwyane Tyrone Wade aka Flash was NEVER the Best player in the League so please get his balls out of ur mouth cuz he dont even know u.

[ZaaaaaH]

I was just using the stats as a quick reference to point out how good he was in the playoffs that year. I watched the games, too, and he was far from "exposed". I don't even know what you're basing this on but I can't think of any kind of sound, logical argument that could be based on "LeBron got exposed in 2009". They swept the first two rounds and I remember LeBron having some "holy s*** this guy is really f***ing good" type games. I don't remember exact/specific numbers, but I know he was flirting with triple-doubles most games in the first two rounds, and it felt like he was having that type of impact watching the games. And didn't he have a 40-something point triple-double against the Hawks? I remember it seeming like, even before you get to the Orlando series, he was having 32-8-8 type games every night...and his team went 8-0 in the process.

I mean it goes beyond just the numbers in 2009. He was passing the eye test, too. So don't sit there and try to tell me, with a straight face, that he got exposed in 2009.



If you read my post instead of jumping to conclusion you might not post useless stuff next time.

I never said he was exposed during the 2009 Playoffs and No doubt he was unstoppable and was Playing great. I said he was exposed during Orlando series. Again Like I said the NUMBERS are not telling the Whole story. Why cant ya get that out of ur head? If ya did watch it why cant you tell me what happened that series instead of giving me these numbers that anyone can ****en read. :facepalm

Even a monkey can go on NBA.com and post numbers like ASDJK1988 without even watching the games and just being a Fan boy.

These new Generation kids. :lol

[ZaaaaaH]

Stop arguing son, you are not going to talk your way out of this one. :oldlol: Speaking as someone who saw every single minute of every single game in that series, you are factually wrong. Period. He did not get exposed in any way. Mo Williams was exposed. The lack of perimeter defenders with length was exposed. Big Z's age and lack of mobility was exposed. Mike browns inability to draw up a go-to play was exposed. Lebron was NOT exposed.



Look here Son, You are right about every little nip picking you did but one thing ur wrong again is LeBron was Exposed.

LeBron is Once in a life time player so no doubt his numbers will come even if he has a bad game but Because he put up 32/8/8 does not justify everything. Another thing is because he was exposed does not mean his going to get completely shut down because again LeBron is a special player but this was the first time I have seen LeBron struggle in a fatigue way due to lack of go to move. This is why I have been saying for years either he needs to get one dribble Mid range down or he needs to go to the post. He waste so much energy trying to do everything and even when he has to score he was having a tough time due to Dwight and the defense they were playing against him.

Its so simple no doubt LeBron played great but he could of done a lot more if he didnt rely on his athleticism so much and go read what I wrote previously.

[Frozen1]

It better be ur last post cuz I been ripping u everytime. Everytime you post is either numbers or YOUR OPINION. You wrote ZERO facts about what happened besides looking up ur little numbers on NBA.com


2006 Wade had a Dominant Playoffs and One of THE BEST FINALS? :roll: GET WADES BALLS OUT OF UR MOUTH.:facepalm AGAIN this is ur opinion. 2006 Heat team had GREAT Team Defense and Experience with one of the Best Coach in History. These are Facts. Wade was a little boy who was just rising and for you non basketball lovers to disrespect and not give any credit to Shaq and Alonzo who was dominating in defense of end is so ****en mind blowing.


Again get Wades balls out of ur mouth. Its so obvious you love numbers because you never watch the games. Person who actually WATCHED basketball would not disrespect AI or T-mac.:facepalm and we can go in Depth why they didnt win but then again you are so ****en clueless you think a Guard can change the entire defense. :facepalm

Kobe? LOL Its amazing how you got so offended when you dont even know anything about basketball. Anyone with a right knowledge who has been following basketball instead of NBA.com will tell you Kobe's better 9/10 times. The funny thing is you discredit the Actual basketball players opinion but you weigh Red1 and SamruiSmushs opinion more. Thats how Delusional you are. :lol


Bottom line Dwyane Tyrone Wade aka Flash was NEVER the Best player in the League so please get his balls out of ur mouth cuz he dont even know u.


LOOOL

If 2006 heat was so great why were they 0-2 in the finals until wade scored like 15 straight points in the 4th in game 3 and started averaging 40 PPG?

[Element]

LOOOL

If 2006 heat was so great why were they 0-2 in the finals until wade scored like 15 straight points in the 4th in game 3 and started averaging 40 PPG?

If 2006 LA was so great why didn't they win ANY game unless Kobe scored at least 37 points in it? He actually averaged 37 on 59 TS% in his 45 wins over the course of a f.uckin season and not just 4 games :bowdown: His overall average was 35 on 56 TS%, so LA clearly and I mean really clearly only went as far as Kobe's point totals.

Fuggin Wade stans with their retard logic. If Wade was better in 2006 because of his PS performance, was Kobe better in 2009 because of HIS PS performance? It works both ways. :no:

[Jameerthefear]

ZaaaaaH. Lebron was really fvcking good in that series. -Magic fan who watched all the games.

[Frozen1]

If 2006 LA was so great why didn't they win ANY game unless Kobe scored at least 37 points in it? He actually averaged 37 on 59 TS% in his 45 wins over the course of a f.uckin season and not just 4 games :bowdown: His overall average was 35 on 56 TS%, so LA clearly and I mean really clearly only went as far as Kobe's point totals.

Fuggin Wade stans with their retard logic. If Wade was better in 2006 because of his PS performance, was Kobe better in 2009 because of HIS PS performance? It works both ways. :no:


Kobe could have had a much better post season in 2006 if he hadn't quit on his own team.

By the way, i didn't even bring kobe to the conversation on my post, i just pointed that the reason miami won in 2006 was wade, they were a bunch of old guys trying to get their first ring (except shaq).

You guys think anything anyone writes about wade or lebron is in a reference against kobe. Kobe isn't the center of the world in everyones mind.

[ZaaaaaH]

LOOOL

If 2006 heat was so great why were they 0-2 in the finals until wade scored like 15 straight points in the 4th in game 3 and started averaging 40 PPG?


So another Stan not reading. :facepalm How many retards we gonna see in this tread?


If you read what I said, my argument is Heat had a great TEAM All around. They had Two Legit HOF Bigs that can play both ends of the court with a lot of vet players with experience and on top of that Pat Riley as their ****en coach.

Why are ya Wade stan so insecure and love to bring up stats and cant bring up what actually happened during the game that really impact the out come?

I can bring up MJ,Kobe, and LeBron stats and Kill ya with these mathematical debate but I have not done that so far cuz that will kill ur ego and this will get boring.

[KG215]

If you read my post instead of jumping to conclusion you might not post useless stuff next time.

I never said he was exposed during the 2009 Playoffs and No doubt he was unstoppable and was Playing great. I said he was exposed during Orlando series. Again Like I said the NUMBERS are not telling the Whole story. Why cant ya get that out of ur head? If ya did watch it why cant you tell me what happened that series instead of giving me these numbers that anyone can ****en read. :facepalm
Why can't you tell me how he got exposed? All I'm seeing is you saying he got exposed over and over, in a lot of words, but not really explaining how and why he got exposed. Like red1 said, it was Cleveland's lack of perimeter length and heavy-footed/slow bigs having problems handling Dwight that hurt them more than anything. Just because a player, who had been playing at a level for two rounds that's only been matched by only a few players in NBA history, started to show some signs of fatigue doesn't mean they got "exposed".

I'm guessing you also think Durant was "exposed" against the Grizzlies this year? Because it was a similar situation except in 2009 LeBron outplayed/outproduced Durant.


Even a monkey can go on NBA.com and post numbers like ASDJK1988 without even watching the games and just being a Fan boy.

These new Generation kids. :lol
Typical Kobe stan arrogance. The hell is it with you douche bags thinking you're a lot smarter than you really are?

You've done nothing to legitimately refute the stupid claim that he was exposed int hat series, but that's typical of Kobe fans. Think they're smarter than everyone else, and think they're "owning" or winning arguments, when all they're really doing is posting insult, emoticon filled posts that don't say anything.



Look here Son, You are right about every little nip picking you did but one thing ur wrong again is LeBron was Exposed.

Sorry to "nip pick", but it's nit picking, not nip picking...dumbass.

[ZaaaaaH]

ZaaaaaH. Lebron was really fvcking good in that series. -Magic fan who watched all the games.



I Never said he played bad or did not play Great.

I watch the series at least 2-3 times depending on which game, and trust me He played ****en Great but does not mean he was not exposed. Why cant ya understand Magic had it their way during that series by making LeBron a Scorer first instead of him being a Playmaker that he is. My gosh its not ****en hard and stop thinking because I said "Exposed" he had a bad series.

Bottom line He had a great individual series but was exposed by limiting what LeBron is really good at but at the end of the day as the BEST Player in your team and arguably The Best If Not the BEST player in the league had no go to move that can give them buckets anytime they needed without using massive amount of energy just to drive to the cup and get challenge by Dwight everytime.


Not ****en hard to understand. :biggums:

[ZaaaaaH]

Why can't you tell me how he got exposed? All I'm seeing is you saying he got exposed over and over, in a lot of words, but not really explaining how and why he got exposed. Like red1 said, it was Cleveland's lack of perimeter length and heavy-footed/slow bigs having problems handling Dwight that hurt them more than anything. Just because a player, who had been playing at a level for two rounds that's only been matched by only a few players in NBA history, started to show some signs of fatigue doesn't mean they got "exposed".

I'm guessing you also think Durant was "exposed" against the Grizzlies this year? Because it was a similar situation except in 2009 LeBron outplayed/outproduced Durant.


Typical Kobe stan arrogance. The hell is it with you douche bags thinking you're a lot smarter than you really are?

You've done nothing to legitimately refute the stupid claim that he was exposed int hat series, but that's typical of Kobe fans. Think they're smarter than everyone else, and think they're "owning" or winning arguments, when all they're really doing is posting insult, emoticon filled posts that don't say anything.



Sorry to "nip pick", but it's nit picking, not nip picking...dumbass.


Sir, What Red1 said was right but that goes for all the team they faced. :confusedshrug: Dwight is always gonna be faster and stronger then your other teams big. Hedo and Lewis is gonna be longer and give every team trouble due to their size espcially the way they were hitting 3's in their playoff run. So whats new?

Its the way how he got Fatigued and not just because he got Fatigued, u feel me?

I love Kobe and I love LeBron but Ultimately I love Basketball and yes no doubt I know more then most of these kids on the board about the game. Im not even being cocky or ignorant it is what it is but no doubt some of the guys on here knows more then me especially 80's and 70's basketball but when it comes to 90's and + trust me I can grasp it much more then any of u fan boys.

To me sir you are getting emotional, as for me I think those kids know jack shiit about the game but I do respect u.

You Exposed me on the "Nip" to "Nit" :lol

[Frozen1]

So another Stan not reading. :facepalm How many retards we gonna see in this tread?


If you read what I said, my argument is Heat had a great TEAM All around. They had Two Legit HOF Bigs that can play both ends of the court with a lot of vet players with experience and on top of that Pat Riley as their ****en coach.

Why are ya Wade stan so insecure and love to bring up stats and cant bring up what actually happened during the game that really impact the out come?

I can bring up MJ,Kobe, and LeBron stats and Kill ya with these mathematical debate but I have not done that so far cuz that will kill ur ego and this will get boring.

40 PPG is what happened, not a washed up alonzo mourning and post prime shaq, go watch the film.

Even in 2005 when a sophomore wade got injured against pistons shaq could not lead miami to the finals.

[No_Look604]

op is crazy

[red1]

Look here Son, You are right about every little nip picking you did but one thing ur wrong again is LeBron was Exposed.

LeBron is Once in a life time player so no doubt his numbers will come even if he has a bad game but Because he put up 32/8/8 does not justify everything. Another thing is because he was exposed does not mean his going to get completely shut down because again LeBron is a special player but this was the first time I have seen LeBron struggle in a fatigue way due to lack of go to move. This is why I have been saying for years either he needs to get one dribble Mid range down or he needs to go to the post. He waste so much energy trying to do everything and even when he has to score he was having a tough time due to Dwight and the defense they were playing against him.

Its so simple no doubt LeBron played great but he could of done a lot more if he didnt rely on his athleticism so much and go read what I wrote previously.
So if prime jordan played for the cavs instead lebron and his team lost because they couldnt guard one of shard or hedo and dwight would he have been exposed as well? Ditto for trading lebron for prime shaq. Jordan or shaq could only guard one of dwight hedo or shard at a time, no matter how you slice it they would have lost as well and it wouldn't be their fault. Ball is a TEAM SPORT ya nah mean?

[Element]

So if prime jordan played for the cavs instead lebron and his team lost because they couldnt guard one of shard or hedo and dwight would he have been exposed as well? Ditto for trading lebron for prime shaq. Jordan or shaq could only guard one of dwight hedo or shard at a time, no matter how you slice it they would have lost as well and it wouldn't be their fault. Ball is a TEAM SPORT ya nah mean?

Well, LeBron didn't guard anyone so at least one guy would've been slowed down :oldlol:

[aj1987]

LOL! The ZaaaaaH dude is OBSESSED with Wade's balls.

[Fresh Kid]

op is crazy
u definitely ain't lying :facepalm

[Fresh Kid]

LOL! The ZaaaaaH dude is OBSESSED with Wade's balls.
he must be especially since u have an avatar of dat niguh:oldlol:

[aj1987]

he must be especially since u have an avatar of dat niguh:oldlol:
http://t.qkme.me/3p6bol.jpg

[Fresh Kid]

http://t.qkme.me/3p6bol.jpg
thats your best comeback??:oldlol: u do realize that i was dissing him tho right?

[Wade's Rings]

Yeah and his scoring went down 5 ppg to 25 ppg in order to do it
he went out of his way to avg that number to prove a point, it's not something that comes naturally to him.

just as in 06 when he went on a scoring tear, his playmaking and defense was non-existent.

Wade's best offensive year coincided with his best defensive and playmaking year, i.e. well-rounded.

far as Ortg
swap out 09 Haslem/Beasley for 06 Odom
then put Wade/Heat in the Western Conf especially with no D playing teams like the Warriors, Suns, Sac etc playing run n gun West Conf basketball

I guarantee you that Ortg will flip flop
old ass Iverson went to the West and had his most efficient season ever 27 ppg 46%

offense is free flowing in the West, East is grind out slow and plodding
this is why Kobe puts up monster numbers in WCF (2010 WCF, prime example) but then shoots 40% in the Finals.

:lebronamazed: Jacks3 got wrecked

[HighFlyer23]

2009 Kobe was considered better than Wade by many

2002-2003 and 2005-2006 Kobe > 2009 Wade