Gary Payton says Stockton was harder to guard than the GOAT

[DuMa]

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/02/gary-payton-says-john-stockton-was-harder-to-guard-than-michael-jordan/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

very strong words but then again Payton talks so much trash, half of it cant be true.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Come on now. A pass first point guard harder to guard..

Maybe Payton's still a little salty over 96, he guarded MJ well enough for the Sonics to win that series

[TheReal Kendall]

Come on now. A pass first point guard harder to guard..

Maybe Payton's still a little salty over 96, he guarded MJ well enough for the Sonics to win that series

This.

I don't see how Stock would be harder to guard.

He's slower, smaller, and like you said a pass first PG.

Pass first players are the easiest to guard cause you know they looking to pass unless you just sag completely off them.

[Legends66NBA7]

^Payton said the same thing 3+ years ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-cG7uUBYxo

[kNicKz]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9aMeUvUjT54/T_owt_8GBVI/AAAAAAAACwg/_gPRMkcSTYY/s400/mjstock608.jpg

Jordan is like "**** "

[TheReal Kendall]

^Payton said the same thing 3+ years ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-cG7uUBYxo

GP funny though.

He need to call some games or be on ESPN.

[jlip]

Drexler said that Rolando Blackman was his toughest matchup.

[FreezingTsmoove]

Unless GP saw Stockton's offensive brilliance in controlling and leading his teams offense as bad defense on his part, then it's just trash talk.

[miller-time]

Pass first players are the easiest to guard cause you know they looking to pass unless you just sag completely off them.

He was shooting 50% for his career. You can't sag completely off of Stockton obviously.

[Legends66NBA7]

Unless GP saw Stockton's offensive brilliance in controlling and leading his teams offense as bad defense on his part, then it's just trash talk.

Go the link I put in my OP.

Stockton even got under Payton's skin at times.

[ProfessorMurder]

Michael Cooper said Bird is tougher to cover than Jordan.

[Marchesk]

Boris Diaw said that Josh Smith was harder to guard.

[bdreason]

Ron Artest said a guy named Mike Chatfield is best player he ever played against. Followed by Brandon Roy. And MJ wishes he had played Ron in his prime... and Charles Barkley is overrated.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFFn-kH7WMw


GOAT interview.

[dunksby]

Q: Did John Stockton ever talk trash back to you?

A: ”Never. That is the reason I really respected him because you never could get in his head. He’s the hardest person I ever had to guard. I tried to talk to him, try to do something and he’d just look at me, set a pick and cause me [to get mad and] get a tech. And then all of the sudden it was over. There was much respect to him doing that to me. It taught me a lot.”

Q: You say Stockton was the hardest to guard, but what about guarding Michael Jordan?

A: ”Those battles were a little easier. I would have Jordan get mad at me and go back at me. He knew he was really talented and could do whatever he wanted to. But [Stockton] was more of a challenge to me than guarding someone that would talk back to me. When you talk back to me and say something to me it made my game go to another level. John was one who wouldn’t say nothing and you couldn’t figure him out. He’d keep going in the pick and rolls and he and Karl Malone would score a big bucket. At times I would guard Jordan and get him mad and into other things.”
Here is the interview.

[ihatetimthomas]

Classic ISH to not read the article. It's all about context. He could not get into his head mentally, and this was a huge weapon for GP. It caused him to not play his game bc he frustrated him.

[alexd]

i agree with gp actually.Jordan maybe be the GOAT but you could get him mad.and when some1 is angry he s bound to do stupid decisions
Stockton was a cold blooded bastard.He was a great dirty defender and he was so calm.I remember Webber i think on open court said that he threw down Stockton on purpose and he didn t even blink.What a boss

[Smoke117]

Payton didn't even guard Jordan in the first two games the Sonics lost in the finals. He was defending Pippen.

[sportjames23]

i agree with gp actually.Jordan maybe be the GOAT but you could get him mad.and when some1 is angry he s bound to do stupid decisionsStockton was a cold blooded bastard.He was a great dirty defender and he was so calm.I remember Webber i think on open court said that he threw down Stockton on purpose and he didn t even blink.What a boss


You must be thinking about Kobe, doe. We talking about MJ here. No one, not even GP, could get in his head. You can pull that shit with Kobe, but MJ didn't let anyone take him outta his game.

[Dragonyeuw]

Basically what he is saying is he couldn't get into Stockton's head. Jordan was a major trashtalker and Payton was able to goad him into losing his cool. So Stockton was more of a mental challenge.

[Wally450]

Kobe said Melo is the hardest to guard.

[Dragonyeuw]

Kobe said Melo is the hardest to guard.

He often calls him a bull( referring to his strength) and is clearly speaking to the diversity of his offensive game.

[deja vu]

So that's why Payton can't win during the Jordan era, because Stockton torched him. Oh wait... Stockton didn't win anything. :roll: :roll: :roll:

[SilkkTheShocker]

Jordan stans getting mad :oldlol:

You gotta remember, Payton shut Jordan down like a little b.itch.

Rodman = real 96 Finals MVP

[DaHeezy]

So the greatest perimeter defender of all-time says someone other than MJ was the hardest player to guard and it gets dismissed as "trash talk"
Once again the Jordaneers get butt hurt and have to defend their idol :facepalm

[L.A. Jazz]

ish will never get or respect players who arent high volume scorers. GP is a emotional player who says he needed reaction to his actions to play his best. and John wasnt giving him anything to work with. in a documentary John said he never spoke to players of the other team during games. Wade mentioned how hard it was to play against the Spurs in the finals because they were like silent killers. he said that he doesnt know how K.Leonard's voice sounds after playing 7 finals games.

[deja vu]

Jordan stans getting mad :oldlol:

You gotta remember, Payton shut Jordan down like a little b.itch.

Rodman = real 96 Finals MVP
Payton >>> Diaw :roll:

[DaHeezy]

You must be thinking about Kobe, doe. We talking about MJ here. No one, not even GP, could get in his head. You can pull that shit with Kobe, but MJ didn't let anyone take him outta his game.

Again this Jordan troll always has to bring up Kobe in a non-Kobe thread and remind people Jordan is better. Then gets butt hurt because Payton rattled him. Yes Payton did rattle him and yes I was old enough to watch him play

[SilkkTheShocker]

So the greatest perimeter defender of all-time says someone other than MJ was the hardest player to guard and it gets dismissed as "trash talk"
Once again the Jordaneers get butt hurt and have to defend their idol :facepalm

this x1000. Apparently he has no idea what he is talking about according to Jordan stans :oldlol: Even though he shut jordan's ass down :oldlol:

[ILLsmak]

the only time you talk is to say gg after it's over or if someone is really talking shit then you can be like "bitch."

He's basically saying Stock would bust his ass when he talked shit (and in a legal way.) Dude's a beast. I really think he's my GOAT PG.

Obviously, every person is affected by trash talk, tho. lol. Some people are more than others. If you hear it, it's affecting you. But he was saying Stock never broke the system, and if you can talk shit to everyone in the NBA and there's one guy who you can't get to act wild, then that's your hardest match up. Pretty simple logic there.

-Smak

[Sarcastic]

Jordan averaged 31/8/4 on Payton for his career, and that includes the crummy Washington years.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=paytoga01

Stockton averaged 14/3/10 on Payton for his career.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=paytoga01&p2=stockjo01

[Shade8780]

:roll:

Clearly, random guys on the Internet are smarter at basketball than GP and would know that Stockton is easier to guard than Jordan.....

[aj1987]

:roll:

Clearly, random guys on the Internet are smarter at basketball than GP and would know that Stockton is easier to guard than Jordan.....
This.

Jordan stans are turning out to be the biggest bunch of retards on this board. Kobe/Lebron stans are actually better than them.

[HomieWeMajor]

All GP had to say was "Madonna" and MJ was mad

[TheMan]

Come on now. A pass first point guard harder to guard..

Maybe Payton's still a little salty over 96, he guarded MJ well enough for the Sonics to win that series
I know GP did as good a job on MJ that you can realistically expect, but the Bulls were up 3-0 at one point in the series and then relaxed bit and the Sonics made it a bit interesting. As a Bulls fan, I wasn't worried at all. You just didn't beat the MJ Bulls when they're up 3-0 in a series.

[deja vu]

Jordan averaged 31/8/4 on Payton for his career, and that includes the crummy Washington years.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=paytoga01

Stockton averaged 14/3/10 on Payton for his career.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=paytoga01&p2=stockjo01
Ether... :bowdown:

[TheMan]

So the greatest perimeter defender of all-time says someone other than MJ was the hardest player to guard and it gets dismissed as "trash talk"
Once again the Jordaneers get butt hurt and have to defend their idol :facepalm
I'm a Jordan fan and I see no problem with GP saying Stock was harder to defend for him:confusedshrug:

[Marchesk]

Jordan stans are turning out to be the biggest bunch of retards on this board. Kobe/Lebron stans are actually better than them.

No. Kobe and Lebron stans have to invent reasons to prop their guy up. Jordan stans simply need to remind the younger viewers who's #1 on the GOAT list (in most people's books) and why.

And it's fine for GP to say that about Jordan vs Stocton, but take it within context.

[DaHeezy]

I'm a Jordan fan and I see no problem with GP saying Stock was harder to defend for him:confusedshrug:
You are one of the level headed exceptions

[aj1987]

No. Kobe and Lebron stans have to invent reasons to prop their guy up. Jordan stans simply need to remind the younger viewers who's #1 on the GOAT list (in most people's books) and why.

The problem with Jordan stans is that they think MJ's flawless.

[Marchesk]

The problem with Jordan stans is that they think MJ's flawless.

In the finals anyway.

[jzek]

He's just salty Jordan beat him twice. :oldlol:

[ralph_i_el]

I could see that. GP stuck with Jordan really well. It might be harder for him to guard somebody who's whole goal was to get rid of the ball.

[jzek]

The problem with Jordan stans is that they think MJ's flawless.

What is Jordan's flaw? :confusedshrug:

[ralph_i_el]

What is Jordan's flaw? :confusedshrug:
a flawless player would be the best at every aspect of the game. Give me an aspect of bball and I'll tell you a player who did it better than MJ.

[kamil]

Jordan stans getting mad :oldlol:

You gotta remember, Payton shut Jordan down like a little b.itch.

Rodman = real 96 Finals MVP

I only see this level of retardation on insidehoops.com

Thank god you only dwell on this forum and nowhere else, you'd be laughed out of the fvcking continent if you were to say this in the real world. Stay in the basement, loser.

[Marchesk]

a flawless player would be the best at every aspect of the game. Give me an aspect of bball and I'll tell you a player who did it better than MJ.

Scoring. If you say Wilt, adjust for total possessions.

It's granted that Jordan can't be better than a big at rebounding or shot blocking. He's not going to best a good PG at assists.

As a shooting guard, what were Jordan's flaws? Not that he was perfect of course, but what stands out as his weaknesses?

[Legends66NBA7]

So that's why Payton can't win during the Jordan era, because Stockton torched him. Oh wait... Stockton didn't win anything. :roll: :roll: :roll:


Jordan averaged 31/8/4 on Payton for his career, and that includes the crummy Washington years.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=paytoga01

Stockton averaged 14/3/10 on Payton for his career.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=paytoga01&p2=stockjo01


Ether... :bowdown:


He's just salty Jordan beat him twice. :oldlol:

It's like you guys are just convinced about OP's words that Payton was just spewing trash talk.

Again... Payton said the same thing about Stockton 3+ years before hand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-cG7uUBYxo


Unless someone can find me a link citing someone else Payton found tougher to guard since his retirement, please show it. I don't see the problem here at all. There are plenty of players who have said Jordan's was their toughest match up, from Bruce Bowen to Jason Kidd.

[Marchesk]

Unless someone can find me a link citing someone else Payton found tougher to guard since his retirement, please show it. I don't see the problem here at all.

It sounds like Payton was saying it was impossible to get in Stocton's head and disrupt his game that way, but you could get MJ mad. I'm not sure Payton was saying that it was easier to hold Jordan below his average compared to Stocton.

But they were different players, and you don't worry about shutting Stocton down as a scoring threat. So maybe that aspect was harder for a great man defender like Payton.

[Legends66NBA7]

It sounds like Payton was saying it was impossible to get in Stocton's head and disrupt his game that way, but you could get MJ mad. I'm not sure Payton was saying that it was easier to hold Jordan below his average compared to Stocton.

But they were different players, and you don't worry about shutting Stocton down as a scoring threat. So maybe that aspect was harder for a great man defender like Payton.

True and if you check the video link he says Stockton even got under his skin to cause him to get a technical foul.

Stockton was a pest his whole career.

[Dragonyeuw]

There are plenty of players who have said Jordan's was their toughest match up, from Bruce Bowen to Jason Kidd.

Hell Ron Artest has said MJ was his toughest cover, and he would have only played the broken down Wizards version.

[alexd]

You must be thinking about Kobe, doe. We talking about MJ here. No one, not even GP, could get in his head. You can pull that shit with Kobe, but MJ didn't let anyone take him outta his game.
many players got in mj s head.reggie the pistons
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOBTLAPHuiQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4ZlHwMstDc
when you make some1 start throwing punches then you know you are in his head

[Dro]

Most of the time when someone got Jordan mad or he perceived something as a challenge, like the Drexler comparison's, he usually comes out and murders the court. I'm not suprised GP said this. It probably kills him to give Jordan credit because everyone else already props MJ up as GOD anyway. To me, its more pride than anything and GP is the king trash talker.. Talk about context all you want, when I watch the games and I watch Jordan play, its hard to believe he's not the toughest matchup for anyone who's ever guarded him unless they only guarded him like once and he happened to not have a good game against them. If a guy is always getting 30 and winning most of the time, how is someone else a harder matchup, whom you've beaten and outplayed? When has GP ever outplayed MJ? Hard to believe for anybody who guarded him on a consistent basis that he's not the toughest player for them to guard. Like I said, its more ego and pride than anything or you just want to be different.

I dunno, I can see the head games. Hell Reggie got under Jordan's skin and Jordan has said that Dumars and Reggie were his toughest opponents on defense and offense respectably. But Jordan has played much superior offensive players than Reggie Miller. I dunno. I don't really believe any of these guys when it comes to these questions because there's too many possible factors to why they name a certain guy over another. Just like when Kobe chose to mention all the best players in the game today and didn't mention Lebron. There's always a little jealousy, dislike, envy, or whatever involved with these questions.

[TheReal Kendall]

I still believe GP is just talking out his ass.

As a bball player I would love to guard Stockton over MJ any and everyday of the week.

You not gonna get torched while guarding Stockton.

I'm a Stockton fan. I never really liked MJ but I respect what he did on the court.

GP talking bout he couldn't get in Stock's head but that to me doesn't mean he was harder to guard because at the end of the day basketball is about putting the ball in the hole and stopping that player from doing so.

If MJ averaged 31 on GP vs Stockton's 14 then you tell me who was harder for him.

I hate to say this but numbers don't lie

[Dragonyeuw]

I dunno, I can see the head games. Hell Reggie got under Jordan's skin and Jordan has said that Dumars and Reggie were his toughest opponents on defense and offense respectably. But Jordan has played much superior offensive players than Reggie Miller.

Reggie was in constant motion, coming off screens, and only needed a split second to get his shot off. Not surprising he'd be a tough cover, and then taking into account that not only are you chasing him all over the court, you need energy for the offensive side as well. I think Kobe said Reggie was a very tough cover in the 2000 finals, and he was like 35 at that point.

[Dro]

Reggie was in constant motion, coming off screens, and only needed a split second to get his shot off. Not surprising he'd be a tough cover, and then taking into account that not only are you chasing him all over the court, you need energy for the offensive side as well. I think Kobe said Reggie was a very tough cover in the 2000 finals, and he was like 35 at that point.
Yeah, I agree with you. Of course, I'm a big Reggie fan but its still tough for me to believe that Reggie was the toughest player for him to guard. I know Reggie makes people very tired from chasing him but Jordan is one of the most well-conditioned athletes of all time and rarely seemed to get tired. I'm guess Jordan just means other SG's who he was matched up with the most. I know Jordan has guarded Bird, Magic, Drexler, Isaiah, etc who are better offensive players than Reggie(Drexler may be up for debate) but they played different positions and he didn't guard them for the entire game. In that sense, I'd assume he'd consider Iverson one of his toughest covers also.

[Dro]

I still believe GP is just talking out his ass.

As a bball player I would love to guard Stockton over MJ any and everyday of the week.

You not gonna get torched while guarding Stockton.

I'm a Stockton fan. I never really liked MJ but I respect what he did on the court.

GP talking bout he couldn't get in Stock's head but that to me doesn't mean he was harder to guard because at the end of the day basketball is about putting the ball in the hole and stopping that player from doing so.

If MJ averaged 31 on GP vs Stockton's 14 then you tell me who was harder for him.

I hate to say this but numbers don't lie
I agree completely and thats what I was trying to get at. A guy averages 14 ppg against you and he's the toughest player you ever had to guard? There's probably plenty of other players other than MJ that were a tougher cover for GP more than Stockton but he probably doesn't want to give those guys credit either, maybe for pride and ego/trash talking reasons. I mean GP played against much better offensive PG's than John Stockton if we're talking about putting the ball in the basket, from Kevin Johnson to Tim Hardaway. He really thinks Stockton is tougher to guard than those guys? Of course not. Unless he's talking about playmaking then in which case it is hard to stop somebody from being a playmaker just like its hard to stop Magic or Lebron from being a playmaker. You may slow them down offensively but they will still make plays for teammates. But when we're talking toughest matchups, aren't we talking 1 on 1, preventing a guy from scoring? :confusedshrug:

[alexd]

Yeah, I agree with you. Of course, I'm a big Reggie fan but its still tough for me to believe that Reggie was the toughest player for him to guard. I know Reggie makes people very tired from chasing him but Jordan is one of the most well-conditioned athletes of all time and rarely seemed to get tired. I'm guess Jordan just means other SG's who he was matched up with the most. I know Jordan has guarded Bird, Magic, Drexler, Isaiah, etc who are better offensive players than Reggie(Drexler may be up for debate) but they played different positions and he didn't guard them for the entire game. In that sense, I'd assume he'd consider Iverson one of his toughest covers also.

being a better offensive player doesn t necessarily means that its harder to defend.its all about match ups.what i mean is that gp was a defensive juggernaut.He played defense through constant trash talking and hand checking.Its harder for him to guard some1 who just doesn t listen to him like stockton because part of gp s game is getting in his head and make him nervous.he could to it to mj but he couldn t do it to stockton so its harder match up for him.plus mj was taller easier to bother while dribbling.stocton is shorter with better handles.he was a floor general he could dominate a game by having 8-10-2.mj was a scorer not a facilitator so ofc he would have better stats than stockton.different roles different players.mj will be the goat but that doesn t mean he was the best at everything but it means he was very good at many things

[Dro]

being a better offensive player doesn t necessarily means that its harder to defend.its all about match ups.what i mean is that gp was a defensive juggernaut.He played defense through constant trash talking and hand checking.Its harder for him to guard some1 who just doesn t listen to him like stockton because part of gp s game is getting in his head and make him nervous.he could to it to mj but he couldn t do it to stockton so its harder match up for him.plus mj was taller easier to bother while dribbling.stocton is shorter with better handles.he was a floor general he could dominate a game by having 8-10-2.mj was a scorer not a facilitator so ofc he would have better stats than stockton.different roles different players.mj will be the goat but that doesn t mean he was the best at everything but it means he was very good at many things
I understand what you're saying and mostly agree with you. I think we have to go with GP's definition and reasoning of who's "tougher to guard". But I think if you were to ask the average person, who's tougher to guard, MJ or Stockton, most would say MJ even including Stockton's great playmaking abilities. Although MJ wasn't a "playmaker" he was capable of making plays of his teammates and he often times did. Thats why you couldn't just leave his teammates open to converge on him because he would find the Armstrong's and Paxson's of the world or could even dish it off to one of the many Bulls centers on his way to the basket. Also, if Jordan was off offensively which honestly wasn't too often, he could still dominate a game defensively and he still seemed to always have the same type of control over a game as a Stockton would despite Stockton being the PG.

[Legends66NBA7]

Payton keeps a consistent stance about a player for over 3 years but he's talking out of his ass ?

And I didn't even click those links about the numbers. This strengthens that Payton would find Stockton toughest, he played him many more times. 49 times in the regular season (although, in context, there are some games that one of them didn't play the same amount of minutes) and another 21 times in the playoffs (4 playoff series totals).


When has GP ever outplayed MJ?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199511260SEA.html


Just like when Kobe chose to mention all the best players in the game today and didn't mention Lebron.

When was this ?

He said in 2012 if he had to pick anybody to play with or start a team, he picked LeBron James.

[ralph_i_el]

Scoring. If you say Wilt, adjust for total possessions.

It's granted that Jordan can't be better than a big at rebounding or shot blocking. He's not going to best a good PG at assists.

As a shooting guard, what were Jordan's flaws? Not that he was perfect of course, but what stands out as his weaknesses?

Scoring is a little vague but I see where you're coming from and I agree that he probably is the greatest scorer. BUT there are plenty of better shooters, better ball handlers, and better finishers than Jordan. He's the GOAT because he was great at so many aspects of basketball that he combined with his will to win. I'm not saying he had weaknesses per se, just that he wasn't perfect. No player is

That being said, people elevate him to Bunyan-esque levels because of his championships. It's the same thing that happens to Kobe. We get lazy and just say "Jordan won 6 championships" so there's no way he could only have the same level of impact as a player with a Barkley-type career who didn't have that level of success. Basketball is a team sport and that's just not a good way to judge what players are the best on the court.




but on topic, just because MJ put up more points doesn't mean he was harder to guard. Defense is more than just stopping someone from beating you 1 on 1. Guarding Stockton seems like a completely different game than guarding MJ would be.

[Xiao Yao You]

I know GP did as good a job on MJ that you can realistically expect, but the Bulls were up 3-0 at one point in the series and then relaxed bit and the Sonics made it a bit interesting. As a Bulls fan, I wasn't worried at all. You just didn't beat the MJ Bulls when they're up 3-0 in a series.

Who does lose a series up 3-0?

[Dro]

Payton keeps a consistent stance about a player for over 3 years but he's talking out of his ass ?

And I didn't even click those links about the numbers. This strengthens that Payton would find Stockton toughest, he played him many more times. 49 times in the regular season (although, in context, there are some games that one of them didn't play the same amount of minutes) and another 21 times in the playoffs (4 playoff series totals).



http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199511260SEA.html



When was this ?

He said in 2012 if he had to pick anybody to play with or start a team, he picked LeBron James.
The bolded means nothing. All it means is that he could've had a grudge against MJ or whoever else, then and now. The reasoning in the previous couple of posts still seems to be the most reasonable to me. To me a guy average 14ppg against you would not make him your toughest cover to me whether he said it today or 3 years ago. He could simply remember he said Stockton 3 years ago and said it again. After all, its not like he's just throwing Stockton's name out there in comparison to others, its in comparison to MJ so its reasonable to believe that he could've had a grudge or whatever against MJ then and now. The question includes MJ in the question I guess, or if it doesn't, then he still includes MJ in the answer and nobody else. So that tells me in GP's mind, its between Stockton and MJ and its hard for me to believe that anyone would really believe that Stockton was tougher for him to guard than MJ. If its all about mind games and trash talking then its more believable but even then, I'm still not sure if I believe it or if he even believes it himself. Like I said, GP does not strike me as the type of guy who is gonna heap props upon a guy who is already viewed by millions as the GOAT. He just seems to brash. Thats why I asked why didn't he bring up other great PG's who he played against who we all know are better offensively than Stockton(although Stockton may be underrated offensively). I just don't buy it and I like GP a ton as a player.

If I buy anything, it would be the fact that he played against Stockton many more times than MJ since Stockton was in the same conference.

I do give you credit for that link though. GP did outplay Jordan in that game and I assume Payton guarded him that game?

[ralph_i_el]

Who does lose a series up 3-0?
it's never happened

[Dro]

When was this ?

He said in 2012 if he had to pick anybody to play with or start a team, he picked LeBron James.
I might be mistaken but I thought somebody on ish posted a topic something a month back with an interview with Kobe and something about who he thought the toughest players were to play against currently and he failed to mention Lebron. They posted the link in the first post if I remember...

[ralph_i_el]

The bolded means nothing. All it means is that he could've had a grudge against MJ or whoever else, then and now. The reasoning in the previous couple of posts still seems to be the most reasonable to me. To me a guy average 14ppg against you would not make him your toughest cover to me whether he said it today or 3 years ago. He could simply remember he said Stockton 3 years ago and said it again. After all, its not like he's just throwing Stockton's name out there in comparison to others, its in comparison to MJ so its reasonable to believe that he could've had a grudge or whatever against MJ then and now. The question includes MJ in the question I guess, or if it doesn't, then he still includes MJ in the answer and nobody else. So that tells me in GP's mind, its between Stockton and MJ and its hard for me to believe that anyone would really believe that Stockton was tougher for him to guard than MJ. If its all about mind games and trash talking then its more believable but even then, I'm still not sure if I believe it or if he even believes it himself. Like I said, GP does not strike me as the type of guy who is gonna heap props upon a guy who is already viewed by millions as the GOAT. He just seems to brash. Thats why I asked why didn't he bring up other great PG's who he played against who we all know are better offensively than Stockton(although Stockton may be underrated offensively). I just don't buy it and I like GP a ton as a player.

If I buy anything, it would be the fact that he played against Stockton many more times than MJ since Stockton was in the same conference.

bullshit. You can't judge offensive impact by ppg.

plus that 14 ppg was often on over 60 ts% which is insane efficiency, while leading the league in assists. in 94-95 Stockton led the league in TS% and AST% which means he literally made the right decision with the ball more than any other player. That means it's super important to defend him intelligently because otherwise his team is getting a good look every time down the court. There's a reason why Karl Malone has ~37k points. With MJ you know that he's more than likely to be the player taking the shot, which would make it easier to defend him mentally imo.

[Legends66NBA7]

The bolded means nothing. All it means is that he could've had a grudge against MJ or whoever else, then and now. The reasoning in the previous couple of posts still seems to be the most reasonable to me. To me a guy average 14ppg against you would not make him your toughest cover to me whether he said it today or 3 years ago. He could simply remember he said Stockton 3 years ago and said it again. After all, its not like he's just throwing Stockton's name out there in comparison to others, its in comparison to MJ so its reasonable to believe that he could've had a grudge or whatever against MJ then and now. The question includes MJ in the question I guess, or if it doesn't, then he still includes MJ in the answer and nobody else. So that tells me in GP's mind, its between Stockton and MJ and its hard for me to believe that anyone would really believe that Stockton was tougher for him to guard than MJ. If its all about mind games and trash talking then its more believable but even then, I'm still not sure if I believe it or if he even believes it himself. Like I said, GP does not strike me as the type of guy who is gonna heap props upon a guy who is already viewed by millions as the GOAT. He just seems to brash. Thats why I asked why didn't he bring up other great PG's who he played against who we all know are better offensively than Stockton(although Stockton may be underrated offensively). I just don't buy it and I like GP a ton as a player.

If I buy anything, it would be the fact that he played against Stockton many more times than MJ since Stockton was in the same conference.

In the video he said he says Stockton was his toughest match up. He even brings up Kobe Bryant's name too, along with Michael Jordan, and said that regardless of their athletic ability, Stockton got the job done.

He also faced Stockton 4 different years (2-2 record) in the playoffs, so shouldn't he have an ego against him if anything ? :confusedshrug:

As for who's better PG offensively, it can only be Magic and Nash, but Payton was either too young or old to face either in his prime.

[Dro]

Scoring is a little vague but I see where you're coming from and I agree that he probably is the greatest scorer. BUT there are plenty of better shooters, better ball handlers, and better finishers than Jordan. He's the GOAT because he was great at so many aspects of basketball that he combined with his will to win. I'm not saying he had weaknesses per se, just that he wasn't perfect. No player is

That being said, people elevate him to Bunyan-esque levels because of his championships. It's the same thing that happens to Kobe. We get lazy and just say "Jordan won 6 championships" so there's no way he could only have the same level of impact as a player with a Barkley-type career who didn't have that level of success. Basketball is a team sport and that's just not a good way to judge what players are the best on the court.




but on topic, just because MJ put up more points doesn't mean he was harder to guard. Defense is more than just stopping someone from beating you 1 on 1. Guarding Stockton seems like a completely different game than guarding MJ would be.
I agree with a lot of your post but not with the bolded. I believe that when it comes to who's harder to guard, you're saying, who's the toughest to stop from scoring. You're not going to stop a player from racking up assists if thats what they're good at. You're not going to stop Stockton, Rondo, Chris Paul, etc from getting 10+ assists. There's really no individual defense to stop that, it requires great team defense to stop that just like it requires great team defense to shut down a scorer. But a scorer can still be slowed down or even stopped by an individual defender. When you judge how tough a player is to stop, you're talking about overall. Its hard to stop prime Duncan not only because he has every post move in the book and a great touch but because he was also a good passer out of the double team. As a complete package, is Stockton tougher to guard than MJ? Considering MJ is also capable of making plays for teammates? Its not like trying to stop Carmelo who know is going to jack up the shot regardless or even Kobe. Jordan had good shot selection along with the fact that he could make the tough shots. Thats the main reason he shot around 50% for his career. I just think GP and some others are using a different definition of what makes a player tough to guard.

Even on ish, when people talk about the toughest players in the NBA to guard, nobody says Rondo or Chris Paul. They say Melo, Durant, Kobe, Lebron, etc because of their ability to put the ball in the basket. At least thats how I see it...

[Dro]

bullshit. You can't judge offensive impact by ppg.
plus that 14 ppg was often on over 60 ts% which is insane efficiency, while leading the league in assists. in 94-95 Stockton led the league in TS% and AST% which means he literally made the right decision with the ball more than any other player. That means it's super important to defend him intelligently because otherwise his team is getting a good look every time down the court. There's a reason why Karl Malone has ~37k points. With MJ you know that he's more than likely to be the player taking the shot, which would make it easier to defend him mentally imo.
I agree you can't and I could see if were talking about Stockton vs. a guy who ONLY scorers for the most part like a prime Vince Carter or even Carmelo. He's talking about Stockton vs. Jordan and my point is that even if he's NOT judging solely on PPG, I still fail to see how Stockton is a tougher cover simply because "he doesn't trash talk back". If thats what GP bases his great defense on is his ability to trash talk the other guy out of his game, then how much credit should we give GP when it comes to his actually defensive ABILITY? Just from a skill standpoint. I know the mental aspect is part of the game but I think thats taking a bit too far and IMO, I think its an attempt to knock Jordan down a notch because lets face, people love to try to knock him down a notch because he's been propped up by so many, myself included.

[jstern]

Kobe said Reggie Miller was the hardest to guard.


So the greatest perimeter defender of all-time says someone other than MJ was the hardest player to guard and it gets dismissed as "trash talk"
Once again the Jordaneers get butt hurt and have to defend their idol :facepalm


You people are retarded. No one is getting mad over Payton picking Stockton over Jordan. Payton clearly gave his explanation why. In his explanation he even said that Jordan could do whatever he wanted, but obviously from his explanation he has his reasons why Stockton was the most difficult for him.

[Dro]

In the video he said he says Stockton was his toughest match up. He even brings up Kobe Bryant's name too, along with Michael Jordan, and said that regardless of their athletic ability, Stockton got the job done.

He also faced Stockton 4 different years (2-2 record) in the playoffs, so shouldn't he have an ego against him if anything ? :confusedshrug:

As for who's better PG offensively, it can only be Magic and Nash, but Payton was either too young or old to face either in his prime.
I dunno, its hard for me to believe that Stockton was a tougher cover for him than Kobe also :confusedshrug: I dunno. It seems that GP is much more willing to give Stockton all the credit in the world rather than give it to his trash-talking peers who already have their asses kissed by so many like Kobe or Jordan. Thats just the type of guy GP has always struck me as.:confusedshrug:

As for Magic and Nash being better offensively than Stockton, I agree with that but I also believe that Kevin Johnson and Tim Hardaway are defintely better offensively than Stockton, considering they were better scorers and great playmakers themselves. Whether they were better all around point guards than Stockton; KJ and Hardaway are not better overall PG's than Stockton. Magic is and Kidd and Stockton are on the same level in my book. None of the other PG's from GP's era have a case though of being better offensively than Stockton other than maybe Penny. Others like Mark Price, Mark Jackson, Kenny Anderson, Mookie Blaylock, Rod Strickland, or Terry Porter definitely are NOT better offensively than Stockton so Ill definitely give him that.

[ZenMaster]

I agree you can't and I could see if were talking about Stockton vs. a guy who ONLY scorers for the most part like a prime Vince Carter or even Carmelo. He's talking about Stockton vs. Jordan and my point is that even if he's NOT judging solely on PPG, I still fail to see how Stockton is a tougher cover simply because "he doesn't trash talk back". If thats what GP bases his great defense on is his ability to trash talk the other guy out of his game, then how much credit should we give GP when it comes to his actually defensive ABILITY? Just from a skill standpoint. I know the mental aspect is part of the game but I think thats taking a bit too far and IMO, I think its an attempt to knock Jordan down a notch because lets face, people love to try to knock him down a notch because he's been propped up by so many, myself included.

He also says that Stockton would just set a pick and it's a pretty big key.
Stockton played in a pick and roll offense as the main ball handler, it takes an incredible amount of energy to work over pick after pick after pick through a game. Combine that with Stockton being completely stable mentally and you have a pretty tough and energy consuming matchup.

[Dro]

He also says that Stockton would just set a pick and it's a pretty big key.
Stockton played in a pick and roll offense as the main ball handler, it takes an incredible amount of energy to work over pick after pick after pick through a game. Combine that with Stockton being completely stable mentally and you have a pretty tough and energy consuming matchup.
Now thats definitely a point I hadn't really considered and its a great point. I guess thats the same reason MJ and Kobe say Reggie is their toughest cover because he runs them ragged. I can definitely understand this point. Good point bro.

[TheReal Kendall]

He also says that Stockton would just set a pick and it's a pretty big key.
Stockton played in a pick and roll offense as the main ball handler, it takes an incredible amount of energy to work over pick after pick after pick through a game. Combine that with Stockton being completely stable mentally and you have a pretty tough and energy consuming matchup.

That's a good point but that's more of a team thing.

That's not really guarding him one on one.

Fighting thru screens are tough but that is more so a team aspect.

I just still can't believe that Stockton is harder to guard than MJ.

[ralph_i_el]

I agree with a lot of your post but not with the bolded. I believe that when it comes to who's harder to guard, you're saying, who's the toughest to stop from scoring. You're not going to stop a player from racking up assists if thats what they're good at. You're not going to stop Stockton, Rondo, Chris Paul, etc from getting 10+ assists. There's really no individual defense to stop that, it requires great team defense to stop that just like it requires great team defense to shut down a scorer. But a scorer can still be slowed down or even stopped by an individual defender. When you judge how tough a player is to stop, you're talking about overall. Its hard to stop prime Duncan not only because he has every post move in the book and a great touch but because he was also a good passer out of the double team. As a complete package, is Stockton tougher to guard than MJ? Considering MJ is also capable of making plays for teammates? Its not like trying to stop Carmelo who know is going to jack up the shot regardless or even Kobe. Jordan had good shot selection along with the fact that he could make the tough shots. Thats the main reason he shot around 50% for his career. I just think GP and some others are using a different definition of what makes a player tough to guard.

Even on ish, when people talk about the toughest players in the NBA to guard, nobody says Rondo or Chris Paul. They say Melo, Durant, Kobe, Lebron, etc because of their ability to put the ball in the basket. At least thats how I see it...

You can most definitely stop a player from getting a ton of assists. Guard the PnR well and don't let them get penetration. Good defense is about preventing the opponent from getting high % shots. That's going to be more complicated when the guy you're guarding is responsible for creating these shots for other people. When you're guarding MJ it's more likely the shot is coming from him and you know that. The Bulls are going to CHOOSE to give him those shots. Does that mean you did a worse job defending because he scored a lot of points on a lot of shots? NOPE. If you hold MJ to 30 points on 25 shots you probably did a better job than if you held Stockton to 14 on 9 shots while he is consistently manufacturing good looks for other players

also
kobe career USG%: 31.8 (high 38.7)
Melo career USG%: 31% (highest 35.6)
MJ career USG%: 33% (highest 38.3)

So yeah, MJ was more likely to put up a shot.

[DaHeezy]

You people are retarded. No one is getting made over Payton picking Stockton over Jordan. Payton clearly gave his explanation why. In his explanation he even said that Jordan could do whatever he wanted, but obviously from his explanation he has his reasons why Stockton was the most difficult for him.

You must be blind if you didn't see that that was happening the first part of this thread
Jordan fans were obviously on the defensive. I couldn't care less about what Payton said

Honestly, sometimes I think posters react to the poster and not the post

[ZenMaster]

That's a good point but that's more of a team thing.

That's not really guarding him one on one.

Fighting thru screens are tough but that is more so a team aspect.

I just still can't believe that Stockton is harder to guard than MJ.

Did Payton specify that he was talking about guarding in a 1on1 situation?

IMO "guarding Stockton" is guarding him as a player which includes a ton of pickn'rolls with him handling the ball.

Defense is a team thing(so is offense), but working over screens in a pickn'roll situation is on the individual player and it is a skill, you can see it practiced here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PkJOjWm25zI#t=301

[ralph_i_el]

pickn'roll situation is on the individual player and it is a skill, you can see it practiced here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PkJOjWm25zI#t=301
:applause: This
PnR D is the most important aspect of D for point guards especially today.

[dawsey6]

GP is not a robot. I think most people in this thread are looking at the idea of being one of the greatest defenders in history in a vacuum. Every professional has something they do to draw the energy to play their best game. For GP, one of those things was trash talking and getting underneath a player. He gives complete perspective on why is was harder for him to guard Stockton than it was to guard MJ. Even if he thinks that MJ is a greatest player, or even just the greatest guard, of all-time, that doesn't mean that bringing HIS A-game against MJ was tougher. If MJ's talking back and getting fired up and that's helping momentum during a game, or course it's going to be tougher when your opponent doesn't feed into what you are doing, and still plays his game. Of course that's going to throw you off.

Also, no one here has done tough jobs and still completed them with flying colors? You don't put toughness in a computer or calculator and it automatically brings down your performance. Remember, we're talking about reasons that are mostly mental and a matter of his opinion. People conduct these kinds of interviews to get a better look at a public figure's thought process and sometimes professional opinions, not to put this "data" against some 1-dimensional, calculated analysis.

[jlip]

GP is not a robot. I think most people in this thread are looking at the idea of being one of the greatest defenders in history in a vacuum. Every professional has something they do to draw the energy to play their best game. For GP, one of those things was trash talking and getting underneath a player. He gives complete perspective on why is was harder for him to guard Stockton than it was to guard MJ. Even if he thinks that MJ is a greatest player, or even just the greatest guard, of all-time, that doesn't mean that bringing HIS A-game against MJ was tougher. If MJ's talking back and getting fired up and that's helping momentum during a game, or course it's going to be tougher when your opponent doesn't feed into what you are doing, and still plays his game. Of course that's going to throw you off.

Also, no one here has done tough jobs and still completed them with flying colors? You don't put toughness in a computer or calculator and it automatically brings down your performance. Remember, we're talking about reasons that are mostly mental and a matter of his opinion. People conduct these kinds of interviews to get a better look at a public figure's thought process and sometimes professional opinions, not to put this "data" against some 1-dimensional, calculated analysis.

This is far too much logic for stan infested ISH.

[TheMan]

a flawless player would be the best at every aspect of the game. Give me an aspect of bball and I'll tell you a player who did it better than MJ.
No shit Sherlock.

MJ wasn't perfect but name me one player who was more well rounded than Jordan. When you take into account elite athleticism with elite fundamentals and all the intangibles, who's better?

On offense, Jordan had handles, ability to get to the rim relentlessly, able to finish with both hands, was equally effective in the half court or on fast breaks, one of the elite dunkers of all time and was able to contort his body in mid air and finish after contact. Post game,(unstoppable fade away jumper) check. Mid range, check. Even as a 3 pt shooter, which he never made a big part of his arsenal, he was pretty decent at it. He was pretty good at finding open teammates (the games in Los Angeles in his first Finals) and he could play off the ball. Great FT shooter too. Hardly ever forced shots and always looked for the best shot.

On defense, he's regarded as one of the best defensive guards of all time, DPOY. He could rebound really well for his position, was a great help defender and shot blocker. Pretty good at steals too.

Intangibles, this is what seperates him from most of the other GOAT players, IMO. He has been praised as a great team leader by GOAT coach PJax. He set a great example of work ethic to his teammates because as great as he was, he always played hard at practice and demanded no less from them. He was a stone cold assassin, when he saw doubt in his opponent's eye, he went for the kill and he pyschologically tried to bury you. He wanted to leave no doubt who was better. He also never shied away from the moment, always wanted to take the big shot but he also wasn't a ball hog in those moments, if the double team came, he would find the open man (Kerr in the 97 Finals).

Now, I'm not saying MJ was perfect but he literally had the fewest weaknesses of the GOAT players. Really, can you name a major flaw in his game where you could say it hampered his game? One of the more popular ones is from younger fans calling him a chucker but 50% for a career is now a chucker:confusedshrug: If DRose can chuck our Bulls to a few titles, count me in.

[Eric Cartman]

He went against Stockton alot more than MJ in his career right? Does that fact have to do with anything or is he just mad salty?

[Legends66NBA7]

He went against Stockton alot more than MJ in his career right? Does that fact have to do with anything or is he just mad salty?

Seriously, it's like the posters didn't even bother clicking on the links for the head to head matchups and just read the stat lines.

[ralph_i_el]

No shit Sherlock.

MJ wasn't perfect but name me one player who was more well rounded than Jordan. When you take into account elite athleticism with elite fundamentals and all the intangibles, who's better?

On offense, Jordan had handles, ability to get to the rim relentlessly, able to finish with both hands, was equally effective in the half court or on fast breaks, one of the elite dunkers of all time and was able to contort his body in mid air and finish after contact. Post game,(unstoppable fade away jumper) check. Mid range, check. Even as a 3 pt shooter, which he never made a big part of his arsenal, he was pretty decent at it. He was pretty good at finding open teammates (the games in Los Angeles in his first Finals) and he could play off the ball. Great FT shooter too. Hardly ever forced shots and always looked for the best shot.

On defense, he's regarded as one of the best defensive guards of all time, DPOY. He could rebound really well for his position, was a great help defender and shot blocker. Pretty good at steals too.

Intangibles, this is what seperates him from most of the other GOAT players, IMO. He has been praised as a great team leader by GOAT coach PJax. He set a great example of work ethic to his teammates because as great as he was, he always played hard at practice and demanded no less from them. He was a stone cold assassin, when he saw doubt in his opponent's eye, he went for the kill and he pyschologically tried to bury you. He wanted to leave no doubt who was better. He also never shied away from the moment, always wanted to take the big shot but he also wasn't a ball hog in those moments, if the double team came, he would find the open man (Kerr in the 97 Finals).

Now, I'm not saying MJ was perfect but he literally had the fewest weaknesses of the GOAT players. Really, can you name a major flaw in his game where you could say it hampered his game? One of the more popular ones is from younger fans calling him a chucker but 50% for a career is now a chucker:confusedshrug: If DRose can chuck our Bulls to a few titles, count me in.

I agree. I did say he's the GOAT didn't I?

I'm just saying that he's not the godlike wrecking ball that some posters make him out to be. I think there are a lot more players in MJ's neighborhood in terms of impact than most people will admit.

[Round Mound]

John Stockton = The Greatest Creator of Offense Ever. Great Clutch Shooter, Nasty Defender (Dirty for some) and Best Shoot/Pass Selection Ever by a PG. Greatest Pure PG Ever. Very Underrated In ISH.

[dawsey6]

This is far too much logic for stan infested ISH.

Well that's unfortunate.

This is a great opportunity to celebrate John Stockton's legacy as a player. Instead it's being written off as bitterness over the '96 Finals, because somehow Gary Payton's ego is suddenly just that fragile. Also, because John Stockton is a past-first PG, like that holds any relevance.

[Solid Snake]

GP funny though.

He need to call some games or be on ESPN.

Not eloquent enough, sounds too street for white America.

[dawsey6]

Not eloquent enough, sounds too street for white America.

That's okay. They'd just make him into a clown like they do Chuck.

[bigt]

I think some people here just need to appreciate Payton's thought process here. For him, and how he plays, Stockton was tougher. He explains it in the interview why. If you play basketball you can appreciate that it's not always the best players that give you the most trouble, but the one's that just match up better against. Even if the 'better' player does more against you, it's not necessarily harder to defend against.

Payton thrived on making it a personal contest, and Jordan's not one to back down from that kind of thing. Did Jordan beat him, sure, but by making it that contest Payton was able to play his type of basketball against Mike. Stockon would have none of that, so Payton couldn't play his game. It's simple logic really.

Instead of seeing this as a slight on the GOAT, why not see this for the praise on one of the greatest point guards of all time? :confusedshrug:

[INDI]

I still believe GP is just talking out his ass.

As a bball player I would love to guard Stockton over MJ any and everyday of the week.

You not gonna get torched while guarding Stockton.

I'm a Stockton fan. I never really liked MJ but I respect what he did on the court.

GP talking bout he couldn't get in Stock's head but that to me doesn't mean he was harder to guard because at the end of the day basketball is about putting the ball in the hole and stopping that player from doing so.

If MJ averaged 31 on GP vs Stockton's 14 then you tell me who was harder for him.

I hate to say this but numbers don't lie

you act like all 31 was on payton. Dont forget hes a pg, therefore there was alot of times where they werent even matched up.

Basically Payton enjoyed his matchups with Jordan because he was able to play defense how he liked and he was able to bait jordan to abort the bulls game plan and get a little one on one. It doesnt matter if he scored or not, thats not what makes it a more manageable matchup.

on the other hand, stockton would never be baited into trash talk or even show that it bothered him, and gp needed that to boost his own self. Not only that but stockton would still follow the game plan, pick and roll him to death and still get his team the bucket.

I can see that being more mentally frustrating, he knew what he needed to do to get jordan to act a certain way which is a defenders dream. With stockton he never had a clue on how to make him change anything up, which can hurt a defenders ego

[INDI]

I was a pg that guarded 2 guards in my high school years because I was tall and a great defender. The best scorer was named gerard and I would love to guard him because I did it better than anyone else, though he would still get his. My toughest opponent was always this dude name roberto, who was a basic player but had a way of driving to the basket that I could never figure out.

Gary is not saying stockton is better, just that is style of defense was better suited to guard Jordan's style of basketball

[Nevaeh]

I think some people here just need to appreciate Payton's thought process here. For him, and how he plays, Stockton was tougher. He explains it in the interview why. If you play basketball you can appreciate that it's not always the best players that give you the most trouble, but the one's that just match up better against. Even if the 'better' player does more against you, it's not necessarily harder to defend against.

Payton thrived on making it a personal contest, and Jordan's not one to back down from that kind of thing. Did Jordan beat him, sure, but by making it that contest Payton was able to play his type of basketball against Mike. Stockon would have none of that, so Payton couldn't play his game. It's simple logic really.

Instead of seeing this as a slight on the GOAT, why not see this for the praise on one of the greatest point guards of all time? :confusedshrug:

Peeps have simply forgotten how to appreciate the game as a whole, and a lot of that is how the game is promoted now. I remember the days of players like GP, and other distinct style players being celebrated. I remember Hannah Storm doing interviews with Vin Baker and Antoine Carr after having big impact games.

Back then, you were able to learn what other players were bringing to the table, even if you couldn't catch many of their games live or on TV. That's why I appreciate the 2k games so much, for giving peeps a glimpse of just how great some of these guys were, even in simulation form. By the time say 2k17 or 18 roll around, i'm sure the games will be even more accurate.

Even Isiah Thomas called Stockton one of the toughest players in the league. A "gritty" style player is always harder to match up against than a more finesse style player, because they're wearing you out faster. I'll never understand ISH's insistence on equating "White" with being "weak" or "soft", especially for top tier players like Stockton.

[Djax12]

It seems that GP has a lot of respect for Stockton.

According to Earl Watson who was a rookie playing with GP at Sonics :

Earl Watson: "Gary Payton never gives anyone any compliments, never. No one’s never better than him and everyone he can beat in one-on-one and they can’t score on him. So we were about to play Utah here in Utah [during Earl's rookie year] and shootaround was over … He was basically telling me that I was lucky to have a chance to play against [John Stockton] and I could see that that was Gary’s way of giving respect, but it was almost to the point where I was like, is Gary afraid of him? … He respected [Stockton] to the fullest, and [Stockton] was the only guy he ever gave credit to the whole time I was with him."

"Everybody we'd play, Gary just talked bad about," Watson recalled. " 'Oh he's not that good, I give him 40 easy, I lock him up.' But coming here to play Utah, he was like, 'Baby Bro, this guy right here? Oooh, this white boy is cold.' So he respected John Stockton."

Watson added: "He never talked crazy to John Stockton, he just played as hard as he could but he never verbally went at him."

And GP asked Stockton to present him to HOF
John Stockton is because I liked him when I was playing basketball. Everyone said he was dirty. He wasn't as athletic as us. But he was smarter than us. We knew what he was going to do. We knew he was going to set [tough] picks. We had all the videos on Utah. We were so dumb. We would get caught up with the picks and get mad at him. He would shoot eight times and make nine. Shoot eight free throws and make seven. He'd have 15 assists and four steals. A complete game. That's just the way he was and I idolized him. I just imitated him while going about my business, talking trash and getting it done. After the game you would look at my stats and it would be right there."

I really think I was better as an athlete and in everything all-around. But he was just a smarter basketball player than us. He just got it done. I do think I was a better basketball player. I can do more things skills-wise. He just showed he knew how to play the game and that was the biggest difference."

[Killbot]

And?

It's his opinion.

[Round Mound]

[B]Why Can

[TheBigVeto]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Why Can

[kshutts1]

Even on ISH, I can't believe that some people really used strictly PPG as an indicator that Jordan was clearly harder to guard. That is just so short-sighted. Anyone that truly believes that obviously don't know how to play basketball.

But tons of other people have defended GP. Everyone has their "tough matchup" and it's not always the best player. My downfall is the Manu-style player; the quirky, herky-jerky player that's difficult to react to and plan ahead for. I can guard the good, smooth players really easily, as it's much more easy to anticipate their moves. Even if I don't stop them, it's easier. But the players that can get their shot off in a blink, have no "tells", etc, give me trouble. Not saying that's how it is for GP, obviously, but just showing that it's different for everyone.

[HomieWeMajor]

Affirmative Action stopped John Stockon from winning a championship!

[Eric Cartman]

I was a pg that guarded 2 guards in my high school years because I was tall and a great defender. The best scorer was named gerard and I would love to guard him because I did it better than anyone else, though he would still get his. My toughest opponent was always this dude name roberto, who was a basic player but had a way of driving to the basket that I could never figure out.

Gary is not saying stockton is better, just that is style of defense was better suited to guard Jordan's style of basketball

Stop playing with illegal immigrants.

[ILLsmak]

Jordan averaged 31/8/4 on Payton for his career, and that includes the crummy Washington years.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=paytoga01

Stockton averaged 14/3/10 on Payton for his career.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=paytoga01&p2=stockjo01

GP said he wanted people to go at him though. He was also shooting more FGAs to get his average.

Worst case 31 and 4 is 39 points. Worst case 14 and 10 is 34. But assists have potential to be worth 3 points.

Let's also not act like Stock was good when played old. Gimme the dude getting 17 and 14.5 lol on a relatively average paced team.

Not saying Stock > MJ, but I am saying that it's believable that he's a tougher match up to stop from doing what he does. That's all defense is. How much affect are you having on someone compared to their average. If you can take a guy who gets 50 and hold him to 35 you are playing great D.

-Smak

[Xiao Yao You]

Let's also not act like Stock was good when played old. Gimme the dude getting 17 and 14.5 lol on a relatively average paced team.

He wasn't good when he was old?

[INDI]

Stop playing with illegal immigrants.

Lol. They both are black, i guess their parents was trying to be different

[SamuraiSWISH]

Even Isiah Thomas called Stockton one of the toughest players in the league. A "gritty" style player is always harder to match up against than a more finesse style player, because they're wearing you out faster. I'll never understand ISH's insistence on equating "White" with being "weak" or "soft", especially for top tier players like Stockton.
All it boils down to his lack of highlight reel athleticism. When the reality is white players are usually necessary for great teams. Glue guys, niche guys, enforcers, defensive specialists. And not to be racist, because to me it's actually reality.

Yes, on average blacks are more physically gifted and athletic. White players are smarter, more skillful and maximize their abilities much more. Gary Payton mentions this in his HOF interview. MJ felt this way, that's why he always appreciated and liked Paxson, Kerr and others more than other athletic, albeit dumb black players.

Even a guy like Kirk Hinrich, he goes down in this year's Bulls series against the Nets and we start to struggle. Why? He's a gritty, smart defender. In the 2000s GMs just started drafting versatile athletes with potential, and little to no college experience. So in essence they got athleticism in exchange for low IQ, and low skill level. Having a team mixed with skilled role players, and a few versatile athletes makes for a more well rounded team.

How do you explain in 2002, 2004, and 2006 these un-athletic yet fundamentally sound, and intelligent white euro clubs who beat us at our own game in international competition? We focused too much on the physical illusions of "athleticism." There is more to basketball than that ...

[Sarcastic]

Peeps have simply forgotten how to appreciate the game as a whole, and a lot of that is how the game is promoted now. I remember the days of players like GP, and other distinct style players being celebrated. I remember Hannah Storm doing interviews with Vin Baker and Antoine Carr after having big impact games.

Back then, you were able to learn what other players were bringing to the table, even if you couldn't catch many of their games live or on TV. That's why I appreciate the 2k games so much, for giving peeps a glimpse of just how great some of these guys were, even in simulation form. By the time say 2k17 or 18 roll around, i'm sure the games will be even more accurate.

Even Isiah Thomas called Stockton one of the toughest players in the league. A "gritty" style player is always harder to match up against than a more finesse style player, because they're wearing you out faster. I'll never understand ISH's insistence on equating "White" with being "weak" or "soft", especially for top tier players like Stockton.

Maybe Isiah said that, but he surely didn't think that when he lit Stockton up for 44 after his Dream Team snub, which everyone knew should have gone to Isiah.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSxmr0YywM0


Isiah dribbling speed at 0:50 :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[bdreason]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Why Can

[bizil]

I think the more u go up against somebody and especially at your position, u gain the ultimate respect. The only thing u can say about Stock was that he wasn't as dominant scoring as PG's such as GP, Big O, Magic, Isiah, Tiny, Nash, CP3, etc. But Stock was a very good scorer and damn near a great shooter. Plus he's arguably the deadliest pick n roll PG ever because of his smarts and skills as a scorer. Stockton was very SKILLED in the scoring facets, but that' wasn't his thing. He was the ultimate pure PG, the one they had in mind back in the day during bball's formative years. Over time, PG's STILL fulfilled the pure PG duties, but ALSO exploited their dominant scoring prowess.

But looking at PG's during GP's era, I would think Tim Hardaway, KJ, Isiah, Price, Magic, and Isiah would be harder to guard. But once again, Gary didn't battle them as much as Stock. Magic was outta the league originally in '91 and Isiah in '93. KJ, Penny, Price, and Timmy were often hobbled with injuries.

[bizil]

Maybe Isiah said that, but he surely didn't think that when he lit Stockton up for 44 after his Dream Team snub, which everyone knew should have gone to Isiah.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSxmr0YywM0


Isiah dribbling speed at 0:50 :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

At that time, I think Isiah was more deserving than Stock of a Dream Team nod. But if it was me, I would have had BOTH on the team along with Magic. But of course that's if Isiah wasn't snubbed. Many Dream Teams carried three point guards anyway.

[Sarcastic]

At that time, I think Isiah was more deserving than Stock of a Dream Team nod. But if it was me, I would have had BOTH on the team along with Magic. But of course that's if Isiah wasn't snubbed. Many Dream Teams carried three point guards anyway.

Isiah didn't go because of Jordan. The only reason Pippen was picked was because of Jordan. Those are facts.

[Xiao Yao You]

Isiah didn't go because of Jordan. The only reason Pippen was picked was because of Jordan. Those are facts.

Yep.

[Dro]

It's probably because MJ was the greatest perimeter scorer in the history of the game. They asked GP about it again on FS1 and he kind of backtracked.
Not surprised..

[Dro]

I think the more u go up against somebody and especially at your position, u gain the ultimate respect. The only thing u can say about Stock was that he wasn't as dominant scoring as PG's such as GP, Big O, Magic, Isiah, Tiny, Nash, CP3, etc. But Stock was a very good scorer and damn near a great shooter. Plus he's arguably the deadliest pick n roll PG ever because of his smarts and skills as a scorer. Stockton was very SKILLED in the scoring facets, but that' wasn't his thing. He was the ultimate pure PG, the one they had in mind back in the day during bball's formative years. Over time, PG's STILL fulfilled the pure PG duties, but ALSO exploited their dominant scoring prowess.

But looking at PG's during GP's era, I would think Tim Hardaway, KJ, Isiah, Price, Magic, and Isiah would be harder to guard. But once again, Gary didn't battle them as much as Stock. Magic was outta the league originally in '91 and Isiah in '93. KJ, Penny, Price, and Timmy were often hobbled with injuries.
Thats my point. Guys are making good arguments, but I still don't really believe GP. I just don't. :confusedshrug:

[NumberSix]

Stockton probably the most underrated player of all time.

[Xiao Yao You]

Stockton probably the most underrated player of all time.

Hard to believe but probably true. Damn guy didn't score enough or dunk or cause enough controversy I guess. Was just one of the best players ever year after year. Amazing really!

[bizil]

Isiah didn't go because of Jordan. The only reason Pippen was picked was because of Jordan. Those are facts.

I agree with u. But Magic also said he didn't want Isiah on the team. And Bird wasn't too fond of Isiah at the time. Neither was Pippen. But I think MJ and Magic had the strongest feelings against Isiah. Plus the higherups in USA basketball didn't want Isiah either due to that walkoff vs. the Bulls. So it was much more than MJ who didn't want Isiah. Which is a shame because Isiah was among the top four most deserving to be on the team in the first place. I think any team of that era historically NEEDED to have Isiah and Nique on there. But Nique had the Achilles thing anyways, which prevented him from taking one of the last two slots. However, Nique and Isiah should have been among the original ten selected to begin with:

MJ
Magic
Bird
Chuck
Ewing
Robinson
Nique
Isiah
Stockton
Mailman

From there u choose between Drexler, Mullin, and Pippen for the last pro slot. The college player should have been Shaq, even though Laetneer had one of the greatest college resumes of all time.

[DaHeezy]

Thats my point. Guys are making good arguments, but I still don't really believe GP. I just don't. :confusedshrug:

It's called being bias. Don't treat it as an insult, it's just fairly obvious

[Xiao Yao You]

I agree with u. But Magic also said he didn't want Isiah on the team. And Bird wasn't too fond of Isiah at the time. Neither was Pippen. But I think MJ and Magic had the strongest feelings against Isiah. Plus the higherups in USA basketball didn't want Isiah either due to that walkoff vs. the Bulls. So it was much more than MJ who didn't want Isiah. Which is a shame because Isiah was among the top four most deserving to be on the team in the first place. I think any team of that era historically NEEDED to have Isiah and Nique on there. But Nique had the Achilles thing anyways, which prevented him from taking one of the last two slots. However, Nique and Isiah should have been among the original ten selected to begin with:

MJ
Magic
Bird
Chuck
Ewing
Robinson
Nique
Isiah
Stockton
Mailman

From there u choose between Drexler, Mullin, and Pippen for the last pro slot. The college player should have been Shaq, even though Laetneer had one of the greatest college resumes of all time.

Dominique didn't deserve it over Drexler or Mullin or Pippen for that matter. I'd argue Daugherty instead of Ewing too.

[bdreason]

Stockton probably the most underrated player of all time.


Most people have him as a top 5 PG of all-time. Hardly underrated.

[Lebron23]

I feel Nash is a better point guard and player than John Stockton. Just compare their conference finals stats. Stockton never get any blame when the Bulls beat the Jazz in 1998.

[TheBigVeto]

I feel Nash is a better point guard and player than John Stockton. Just compare their conference finals stats. Stockton never get any blame when the Bulls beat the Jazz in 1998.

That is because it's not Stockton's fault - it's David Stern's.

But, you are right, Nash > Stockton. Nash = GOAT PG.

[Smoke117]

What I love about Stockton is that he really wasn't more athletic or anything than Steve Nash...yet one of them was a decent-good defensive player...and the other (Nash) was a ****ing hole. Stockton may have been dirty, but hey if it's not called...it's not a foul. He was as tough as they came and made up for his limitations with a ruthlessness. EVERY GUARD throughout the late 80s through the early 2000s has a story about those forearms from Stock. Steve Kerr absolutely despises him.

[bizil]

Dominique didn't deserve it over Drexler or Mullin or Pippen for that matter. I'd argue Daugherty instead of Ewing too.

Dominique's resume at that time was better than Mullin's and Pippen's for sure. Going off resume, Nique CLEARLY had one of the top 11 resumes in the L at that time. So if that team was SUPPOSED to be about assembling the top 11 NBA players of that Golden Era still playing at a high ass level, Nique was EASILY on that team.

The reason why Nique might not have been picked originally was because of fit for the team. Mullin was a pure shooter while Drexler and Pip were more versatile. But Nique was the most dominant scorer and did more for the NBA on a worldwide level than those three. After MJ, Magic, and Bird, I feel Charles, Isiah and Nique were the next three in terms of marketability. As well as really making the NBA All-Star Game must see TV.

Nique was also the SHOWCASE on TBS, America's first cable superstation. So I WOULDN'T say Drexler, Mullin, and Pip deserved to be on the team more. Cause peak value wise, I think Nique was the better than Mullin and Pippen. And right there with Clyde. It was about a FIT not more deserving. Nique was the second greatest SF in the Golden era of SF's (when that era really got stockpiled, Doc was declining some) just behind Bird. Daugherty over Ewing is laughable as hell. Big Brad was very nice, one of the most skilled centers ever. But Ewing was DOMINANT, one of the top 10 greatest centers to ever live. And that's saying a lot with the history of dominant bigs in the NBA.

[Xiao Yao You]

Dominique's resume at that time was better than Mullin's and Pippen's for sure. Going off resume, Nique CLEARLY had one of the top 11 resumes in the L at that time. So if that team was SUPPOSED to be about assembling the top 11 NBA players of that Golden Era still playing at a high ass level, Nique was EASILY on that team.

Dominique was a great scorer with a lot of hype not a Dream Teamer.


Cause peak value wise, I think Nique was the better than Mullin and Pippen. And right there with Clyde.

I wouldn't. I put him there with the other high scoring though less hyped SF's of his time like AD, English and King.


Daugherty over Ewing is laughable as hell. Big Brad was very nice, one of the most skilled centers ever.

Again more hyped. Daugherty was comparable in my mind. They did different things well. Daugherty would have made sense on that team. Ewing was just a lesser version of Robinson. Daugherty brought different things to the table.

[NumberSix]

It's called being bias. Don't treat it as an insult, it's just fairly obvious
Do people on the Internet seriously not know the difference between "bias" and "biased" or is this just some running joke that I'm unaware of?

[mugiwara]

hardest to guard because he couldnt stop stockton being stockton, couldnt affect his game.

[havoc33]

Isiah didn't go because of Jordan. The only reason Pippen was picked was because of Jordan. Those are facts.
And yet Pippen ended up being the best allround player on the team in Barcelona. I'd say he earned his spot.

[Xiao Yao You]

And yet Pippen ended up being the best allround player on the team in Barcelona. I'd say he earned his spot.

Stockton was hurt so he had more opportunity than he would have otherwise. He should have earned his spot beforehand.

[havoc33]

Stockton was hurt so he had more opportunity than he would have otherwise. He should have earned his spot beforehand.
Who cares. Pippen deserved to be there anyways, he was coming off his 2nd championship with Bulls, and already was the best allround player in the league. A no-brainer IMO.

[Xiao Yao You]

Who cares. Pippen deserved to be there anyways, he was coming off his 2nd championship with Bulls, and already was the best allround player in the league. A no-brainer IMO.

riding MJ's coattails

[SamuraiSWISH]

GP is essentially admitting he was a troll, and Stockton was the one guy whom he couldn't get under their skin with his mouth. No where here does he say MJ or even Kobe are worse players than Stockton. John's physicality, toughness is what frustrated GP. I think there is a difference between asking who is the toughest to guard, who was the best player you faced, and who frustrated you the most.

Everyone has that one guy, who may not even be the best player on the court who just gives you fits when they play you. MJ had that guy in Starks. He will say Joe Dumars, but Stark's feistiness clearly got under Mike's skin at times. I've got a guy named Stokes at the gym, older guy, not near the best player there who bothers the shit out of me. I get by virtually everyone off the dribble. This guy? He hand checks the shit out of me. Bumps me at odd angles on drives and it irritates the hell out of me and throws me off my entire game. Then I got another guy who is annoying to guard. He's constantly moving, running through screens and tiring me out. Best player? No. But his style is the most difficult to defend for me.

I get amped up to guard an elite player with the ball in his hand trying to challenge me mano y mano. I get pumped and play better. Takes short spurts of energy to lock someone down like that. I'm sure the guy with the ball in hand is a better player, but the tougher guy for me to guard is the one whose constantly moving away from the ball. Requiring me to be focused and engaged even if the central part of the play, or the ball isn't in front of me.

[Sarcastic]

Dominique was a great scorer with a lot of hype not a Dream Teamer.



I wouldn't. I put him there with the other high scoring though less hyped SF's of his time like AD, English and King.



Again more hyped. Daugherty was comparable in my mind. They did different things well. Daugherty would have made sense on that team. Ewing was just a lesser version of Robinson. Daugherty brought different things to the table.

Stockton was hurt so he had more opportunity than he would have otherwise. He should have earned his spot beforehand.


I honestly can't tell if you are retarded or just fell on your head.

Daughterty over Ewing is even worse than Stockton over Isiah.

[Xiao Yao You]

Knicks fan taking it personally big surprise.

[Sarcastic]

What more could Daugherty have brought to the team that was winning by 40 or more every game? Would his skills have made them win by 50?

You're either insane or just a hater if you think Daugherty was on Ewing's level in 1991/2. His best season was 20/10 with like 1 block. Ewing was putting up 25+ with better rebounding, better defense, and more blocks. Ewing also didn't have a PG like Daugherty had in Mark Price feeding him the ball.

If anything Mark Price should have taken Stockton's spot before Daugherty would take Ewing's.

[Xiao Yao You]

What more could Daugherty have brought to the team that was winning by 40 or more every game? Would his skills have made them win by 50?

You're either insane or just a hater if you think Daugherty was on Ewing's level in 1991/2. His best season was 20/10 with like 1 block. Ewing was putting up 25+ with better rebounding, better defense, and more blocks. Ewing also didn't have a PG like Daugherty had in Mark Price feeding him the ball.

Ewing was one of the best scorers in the league and the Knicks needed it. Cavs didn't need Daugherty to score as much. They were comparable on the boards actually. Daugherty was one of the best passing big men ever and was doing much of the feeding of the ball of those teams, He's highly underrated as Ewing was always highly overrated.


If anything Mark Price should have taken Stockton's spot before Daugherty would take Ewing's.

Yeah right!

[ILLsmak]

like gary said... BOOOPPPPPP

-Smak

[Sharmer]

Another sore loser. MJ.

[havoc33]

riding MJ's coattails

"I know Michael's the best player, but Pippen was the best player on that team" - Chuck Daly on the 1992 Dream Team.

Even Jordan was gushing about Pippen's abilities as an allround player, even admitting that Pippen at times outplayed him. Phil Jackson writes about this in his book as well, but I guess I should rather listen to your expert opinion about this matter. Laughable.

[Xiao Yao You]

"I know Michael's the best player, but Pippen was the best player on that team" - Chuck Daly on the 1992 Dream Team.

Even Jordan was gushing about Pippen's abilities as an allround player, even admitting that Pippen at times outplayed him. Phil Jackson writes about this in his book as well, but I guess I should rather listen to your expert opinion about this matter. Laughable.

laughable that people hve different opinions?:rolleyes:

[havoc33]

laughable that people hve different opinions?:rolleyes:
When you clearly don't know what you're talking about; yes.