Comparing the 5 Greatest Centers Ever [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

Deuce Bigalow

09-02-2013, 11:03 PM

NBA Regular Season

Bill Russell - 15.1 PPG, 19.9 TRB%, 12.2 AST%, 47.1 TS%

Wilt Chamberlain - 30.1 PPG, 20.4 TRB%, 13.8 AST%, 54.7 TS%

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 24.6 PPG, 15.6 TRB%, 14.6 AST%, 59.2 TS%

Hakeem Olajuwon - 21.8 PPG, 17.2 TRB%, 12.1 AST%, 55.3 TS%

Shaquille O'Neal - 23.7 PPG, 17.8 TRB%, 13.9 AST%, 58.6 TS%

NBA Playoffs

Bill Russell - 16.2 PPG, 20.9 TRB%, 13.3 AST%, 47.4 TS%

Wilt Chamberlain - 22.5 PPG, 21.9 TRB%, 12.9 AST%, 52.4 TS%

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 24.3 PPG, 14.7 TRB%, 13.2 AST%, 57.1 TS%

Hakeem Olajuwon - 25.9 PPG, 16.0 TRB%, 15.6 AST%, 56.9 TS%

Shaquille O'Neal - 24.3 PPG, 18.0 TRB%, 14.7 AST%, 56.5 TS%

NBA Finals

Bill Russell - 16.4 PPG, 21.4 TRB%, 52.2 TS%

Wilt Chamberlain - 18.6 PPG, 22.0 TRB%, 52.8 TS%

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 23.5 PPG, 12.4 TRB%, 55.6 TS%

Hakeem Olajuwon - 28.0 PPG, 14.0 TRB%, 53.4 TS%

Shaquille O'Neal - 28.8 PPG, 18.3 TRB%, 59.0 TS%

Accomplishments

Bill Russell - 11x Champion, 12x Finalist, 5x MVP, 4.827 MVP Shares, 12x All-Star, 11x All-NBA team (3x First team), 4x Rebounding Champion

Wilt Chamberlain - 2x Champion, 6x Finalist, 4x MVP, 4.269 MVP Shares, 13x All-Star, 10x All-NBA team (7x First team), 7x Scoring Champion, 11x Rebounding Champion, 9x Field Goal Percentage Leader

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 6x Champion, 10x Finalist, 6x MVP, 6.203 MVP Shares, 19x All-Star, 15x All-NBA team (10x First team), 2x Scoring Champion, 1x Rebounding Champion, 1x Field Goal Percentage Leader

Hakeem Olajuwon - 2x Champion, 3x Finalist, 1x MVP, 2.611 MVP Shares, 12x All-Star, 12x All-NBA team (6x First team), 2x Rebounding Champion

Shaquille O'Neal - 4x Champion, 6x Finalist, 1x MVP, 4.380 MVP Shares, 15x All-Star, 14x All-NBA team (8x First team), 2x Scoring Champion, 10x Field Goal Percentage Leader

Sources:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=305971
http://www2.zippyshare.com/d/2729139/33316/trb-ast%20season.xls
http://www2.zippyshare.com/d/41530911/18/trb%20playoffs.xls

kNicKz

09-02-2013, 11:06 PM

what the **** is this shit

Deuce Bigalow

09-02-2013, 11:10 PM

what the **** is this shit
Instead of using raw RPG and APG, which would be pointless to compare because the differences in pace, I used TRB% to measure rebounding and AST% to measure assists.

fpliii

09-02-2013, 11:11 PM

LAZERUSS

09-02-2013, 11:21 PM

I have already blown up the flawed AST%. It is completely worthless.

As for TS%...you need to include LEAGUE AVERAGE.

For instance, Chamberlain had a .513 true TS% (not the flawed TS% that has been exposed), while the league average in those six finals was .478. Furthermore, Chamberlain held his opposing starting center to a combined true TS% of .442 in those six Finals. So, here was Wilt blowing away the post-season league average in his six finals, and holding his opposing starting centers in those six finals (BTW, five of them were HOF starting centers) to WAY below the league average.

As a great example...how about Hakeem's shot-jacking in the '95 Finals? His true TS% was .515 in a post-season NBA that had a true TS% of .541. BTW, Shaq had a true TS% of .589 in that series. So, here was hakeem shooting WAY below the post-season league average...and allowing his opposing center to shoot WAY above it.

So, I want you to compute these all-time great centers using their true TS%, as compared to the LEAGUE AVERAGE, and then, also include their starting centers true TS%'s. Then, we would have a much better picture of who was more dominant.

Odinn

09-02-2013, 11:23 PM

This kinda threads lead to rankings... So... I apologize for skipping to last page of the book.

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Bill Russell
3. Shaquille O'Neal
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. Moses Malone
7. Patrick Ewing
8. David Robinson
9. Willis Reed
10. Bill Walton or George Mikan

Honourable mentions; Arvydas Sabonis, Artis Gilmore, Dave Cowens, Nate Thurmond

CavaliersFTW

09-02-2013, 11:24 PM

:applause: Cool thread, are you gonna do one for guards and forwards too? It might be hard to choose guys though, I'd guess (not in order):

G: Jordan Magic Kobe West Robertson

F: Bird Duncan LeBron Erving (including ABA seasons) Garnett
Cool as you may think it is, he's straight up trolling. Using things like AST% which is highly flawed, specifically to upset Jlauber who always points out how flawed it is. OP doesn't give a flying fvck about drawing up serious discussion with this thread, or making one for guards like you'd like. This is just a well-baited troll thread.

Odinn

09-02-2013, 11:25 PM

I have already blown up the flawed AST%. It is completely worthless.

As for TS%...you need to include LEAGUE AVERAGE.
That's what I hate you about.

You cherry-pick so hard to look greater Wilt. Actually, too hard. If you think AST% is flawed and then you have to think TS% is flawed, too. Your agenda is too obvious. At least try to be more consistent.

SamuraiSWISH

09-02-2013, 11:31 PM

Cool thread, are you gonna do one for guards and forwards too?
:cheers:

THIS

PG - Magic, Isiah, Oscar, Iverson, Kidd
SG - Jordan, Kobe, West, Wade, Drexler
SF - LeBron, Bird, Nique, Erving, Baylor
PF - Duncan, Garnett, Barkley, Malone, Dirk

CavaliersFTW

09-02-2013, 11:32 PM

That's what I hate you about.

You cherry-pick so hard to look greater Wilt. Actually, too hard. If you think AST% is flawed and then you have to think TS% is flawed, too. Your agenda is too obvious. At least try to be more consistent.
He does cherry pick, as does quite literally everyone does when trying to remind others of what their favorite player was good or great at, and he's actually right about AST% not being an accurate reflection in this case. Another thing to note, assists were not given out the same way in Wilt's era. Which skews the statistic even more. People who get mad when these things are pointed out are just people who don't care about context I guess.

fpliii

09-02-2013, 11:33 PM

Cool as you may think it is, he's straight up trolling. Using things like AST% which is highly flawed, specifically to upset Jlauber who always points out how flawed it is. OP doesn't give a flying fvck about drawing up serious discussion with this thread, or making one for guards like you'd like. This is just a well-baited troll thread.

I guess I didn't really think it through, busy with my FF draft. I don't really know his intentions admittedly and didn't read the OP, just commented because I'm a fan of all five players. Truth be told, regardless of the order in which somebody puts these guys (which to me might actually be the order listed, though I'm not certain), I'd very likely take all five before anybody else in an all-time draft.

Deuce Bigalow

09-02-2013, 11:33 PM

Deuce Bigalow

09-02-2013, 11:38 PM

:applause: Cool thread, are you gonna do one for guards and forwards too? It might be hard to choose guys though, I'd guess (not in order):

G: Jordan Magic Kobe West Robertson

F: Bird Duncan LeBron Erving (including ABA seasons) Garnett
Sure why not. But do you know where I can get the missing TRB% and AST% data. Specifically the Finals?

SamuraiSWISH

09-02-2013, 11:40 PM

Sure why not. But do you know where I can get the missing TRB% and AST% data. Specifically the Finals?
Do these:

PG - Magic, Isiah, Oscar, Iverson, Kidd
SG - Jordan, Kobe, West, Wade, Drexler
SF - LeBron, Bird, Nique, Erving, Baylor
PF - Duncan, Garnett, Barkley, Malone, Dirk

LAZERUSS

09-02-2013, 11:42 PM

That's what I hate you about.

You cherry-pick so hard to look greater Wilt. Actually, too hard. If you think AST% is flawed and then you have to think TS% is flawed, too. Your agenda is too obvious. At least try to be more consistent.

BTW, here is the formula for a TRUE TS%.

FGM - 3PT MADE x2 + 3PT MADE x 1.5 x2 + FTM

Divided by

FGA - 3PTA + 3PTA x2 + FTM

I'll give you an example.

Larry Bird's 84-85 Finals.

He shot 53-118 from the field, 3-9 from the arc, and 34-40 from the line.

Here we go...

53-3= 50 x 2= 100 + 3 x1.5 x2 = 9 + 34 for a total of 143
118-9 = 109 x 2= 218 + 9 x2 = 18 + 40 for a total of 276
143/276 = a true TS% of .518

Then, the 84-85 post-season NBA shot on average 377-769 from the field, 10-35 from the arc, and 210-273 from the line.

377-10 = 367 x2 = 734 + 10x 1.5 x 2 = 30 + 210 for a total of 974
769-35 = 734 x 2 = 1468 + 35x2 = 70 + 273 for a total of 1811
974/1811 = .538.

So Bird in his 84-85 Finals, shot .518 as compared to a post-season league average of .538.

Jameerthefear

09-02-2013, 11:47 PM

How exactly is AST% flawed?

fpliii

09-02-2013, 11:47 PM

Sure why not. But do you know where I can get the missing TRB% and AST% data. Specifically the Finals?

I think you'd have to calculate manually.

TRB% = 100 * (TRB * (Tm MP / 5)) / (MP * (Tm TRB + Opp TRB))
AST% = 100 * AST / (((MP / (Tm MP / 5)) * Tm FG) - FG)

All of the data should be available on basketball-reference.com except for assists in the 59 Finals. I'd help but I'm busy at the moment.

Do these:

PG - Magic, Isiah, Oscar, Iverson, Kidd
SG - Jordan, Kobe, West, Wade, Drexler
SF - LeBron, Bird, Nique, Erving, Baylor
PF - Duncan, Garnett, Barkley, Malone, Dirk

Four more threads is probably too much work, so one more each for guards and forwards is probably a better bet. The bolded are also strange inclusions (over Stockton/Nash and Pippen respectively); I'm also assuming these aren't in order. Your call though I guess.

fpliii

09-02-2013, 11:52 PM

How exactly is AST% flawed?

Assists used to only count for catch-and-shoot made baskets. You now get a dribble and a couple of steps, or something along those lines (we'd need to check a statistician's manual to be sure of the exact definition).

AST% is still fine to compare players within the same season since assists were awarded with the same standards in that year.

CavaliersFTW

09-02-2013, 11:53 PM

How am I straight up trolling? Posting raw APG or RPG would be even MORE flawed. 120-130 possesions in the 60s compared to what, around 90 the past decades?
Would you care to point out to everyone here that Wilt's team-role during his playoff seasons, and Finals seasons are disproportionate to his regular season, thus creating an exaggerated cumulative rift in his stats at all 3 stages? No of course you wouldn't, you'd like people to view the numbers at a glance and think "wow, Wilt "Wilted" at the big stage" which isn't true. This is basically the only reason you created this thread. If I'm wrong about your intentions than go ahead and prove me wrong by copy-pasting all the pertinent data I researched in my easy to find "Wilt's playoff stats for dummies" thread - and remind everyone that unlike those other players, Wilt's role changes made direct comparisons of his career stats at each of those 3 levels misleading. Then I'll gladly apologize to you. But I suspect you won't do that. I suspect you tried to leave context out of this.

LAZERUSS

09-02-2013, 11:59 PM

How exactly is AST% flawed?

Explain this to me first...

Let's use this example...

In Hakeem's 94-95 playoff run, basketball-reference lists his "AST%" at 22.6%
In Wilt's 66-67 playoff run, bb-reference lists Chamberlain's at a 23.9%.

Ok, here were their numbers...

Hakeem:

22 games, 42.2 mpg, 98 total assists, 4.5 apg, ...on a team that had 555 total assists, or 25.2 apg, in a post-season NBA that averaged 22.6 apg per team.

Chamberlain:

15 games, 47.9 mpg, 135 total assists, 9.0 apg,...on a team that had 401 total assists, or 26.7 apg, in a post-season NBA that averaged 22.9 apg per team.

Secondly...how about this...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123855027541776617.html

Justin Kubatko, a statistics analyst with the Portland Trail Blazers and vice president of Sports Reference LLC, couldn't pinpoint why the increase occurred, but says "at some point along the line, the way a scorekeeper viewed an assist dramatically changed."

An NBA spokesman said league officials review every game to make sure statistics are credited properly.

Oscar Robertson has a thought. The Hall of Fame point guard played from 1960-74 and is fifth all-time in the NBA in total assists. During his career, 53% of made field goals were assisted, on average. For the first three seasons of Chris Paul's career, that figure is 58%. Adjust Mr. Robertson's numbers to Mr. Paul's era, and Mr. Robertson moves to second place all-time in total assists behind John Stockton of the Utah Jazz, who played from 1984 to 2003.

"These guys want to promote the game and make it about new stats and new records," Mr. Robertson says. "They don't want yesterday's stars to be today's stars."

Finally...Hakeem's '95 NBA averaged 1916 assists per team, or 23.4 apg per team. Chamberlain's '67 NBA averaged 1817 assists per team (in one less game) for an average of 22.4 apg, per team. Yet Wilt's '67 NBA averaged 117.4 ppg, while Hakeem's '95 NBA averaged 101.4 ppg. CLEARLY something changed in the way assists were given out in the near 30 years time frame.

Now I ask you...how is AST% NOT flawed?

fpliii

09-02-2013, 11:59 PM

BTW, here is the formula for a TRUE TS%.

FGM - 3PT MADE x2 + 3PT MADE x 1.5 x2 + FTM

Divided by

FGA - 3PTA + 3PTA x2 + FTM

I'll give you an example.

Larry Bird's 84-85 Finals.

He shot 53-118 from the field, 3-9 from the arc, and 34-40 from the line.

Here we go...

53-3= 50 x 2= 100 + 3 x1.5 x2 = 9 + 34 for a total of 143
118-9 = 109 x 2= 218 + 9 x2 = 18 + 40 for a total of 276
143/276 = a true TS% of .518

Then, the 84-85 post-season NBA shot on average 377-769 from the field, 10-35 from the arc, and 210-273 from the line.

377-10 = 367 x2 = 734 + 10x 1.5 x 2 = 30 + 210 for a total of 974
769-35 = 734 x 2 = 1468 + 35x2 = 70 + 273 for a total of 1811
974/1811 = .538.

So Bird in his 84-85 Finals, shot .518 as compared to a post-season league average of .538.

The problem is, you need to account for and-1's since TS% is intended to be a per-possession scoring efficiency measure. By counting all FT's equally, you're not evaluating the same thing.

TS% = PTS / (2 * (FGA + 0.44*FTA))

If you wanted to create a "true" TS%, the only number here you'd need to change is the 0.44, based on how many and-1's a player has. It'd be higher (closer to 0.5) if you never make the shot and have an and-1 opportunity, and lower if you get fouled and make a lot in traffic. We can't evaluate this without play-by-play data though.

fpliii

09-03-2013, 12:02 AM

Explain this to me first...

Secondly...how about this...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123855027541776617.html

Finally...Hakeem's '95 NBA averaged 1916 assists per team, or 23.4 apg per team. Chamberlain's '67 NBA averaged 1817 assists per team (in one less game) for an average of 22.4 apg, per team. Yet Wilt's '67 NBA averaged 117.4 ppg, while Hakeem's '95 NBA averaged 101.4 ppg. CLEARLY something changed in the way assists were given out in the near 30 years time frame.

Now I ask you...how is AST% NOT flawed?

I agree about the AST% quote, but it's fine if you use it as a rough guide, or compare guys within season. Regarding the Hakeem/Wilt example specifically, how many FGM did their teams have in the samples in question?

Deuce Bigalow

09-03-2013, 12:06 AM

Would you care to point out to everyone here that Wilt's team-role during his playoff seasons, and Finals seasons are disproportionate to his regular season, thus creating an exaggerated cumulative rift in his stats at all 3 stages? No of course you wouldn't, you'd like people to view the numbers at a glance and think "wow, Wilt "Wilted" at the big stage" which isn't true. This is basically the only reason you created this thread. If I'm wrong about your intentions than go ahead and prove me wrong by copy-pasting all the pertinent data I researched in my easy to find "Wilt's playoff stats for dummies" thread - and remind everyone that unlike those other players, Wilt's role changes made direct comparisons of his career stats at each of those 3 levels misleading. Then I'll gladly apologize to you. But I suspect you won't do that. I suspect you tried to leave context out of this.
We already went over this. Even in his volume scoring years he declined steeply.

1960-66 Regular Season: 39.6 PPG / 52.9 TS%
1960-66 Playoffs: 32.8 PPG / 52.0 TS%

7 ppg drop, which is the nearly identical to his near 8 ppg career decline.

SamuraiSWISH

09-03-2013, 12:09 AM

Four more threads is probably too much work, so one more each for guards and forwards is probably a better bet. The bolded are also strange inclusions (over Stockton/Nash and Pippen respectively); I'm also assuming these aren't in order. Your call though I guess.
Iverson was a combo guard, but actually lead his team to the Finals. So I consider that more impactful. You could sub Stockton out for him given he went to the Finals twice. But Nash? He never reached the Finals. In regards to Nique over Pippen? It's simple, he was better. Granted his team never made the Finals either so you may need to leave him off the list.

TonyMontana

09-03-2013, 12:10 AM

I would like to see the process of how total rebounding % was gotten for the old players, too easy to throw any random number out there and claim it.

Also TS%? :roll:

Heres Pauks numbers when you give all of them the same possessions and minutes.

Wilt Chamberlain 1961-62:

27.7 ppg, 14.1 rpg, 1.3 apg in 100 poss. per game. & 40 mpg.

50.4 ppg, 25.7 rpg, 2.4 apg in his ~150 poss. per game. & 48.5 mpg.

Hakeem Olajuwon 1992-93:

27.9 ppg, 14.0 rpg, 3.7 apg in his 100 poss. per game & 40 mpg.

26.1 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 3.5 apg in 94.4 poss. per game & 39.5 mpg.

Shaquille O'Neal 1999-00:

31.8 ppg, 14.8 rpg, 4.1 apg in 100 poss. per game & 40 mpg.

29.7 ppg, 13.8 rpg, 3.8 apg in his 93.3 poss. per game. & 40.0 mpg.

Bill Russell 1961-62:

11.2 ppg, 13.9 rpg, 2.7 apg in 100 poss. per game. & 40 mpg.

18.9 ppg, 23.6 rpg, 4.5 apg in his ~150 poss. per game. & 45.2 mpg.

Kareem Abdul Jabbar 1971-72:

26.2 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 3.4 apg in 100 poss. per game & 40 mpg.

34.8 ppg, 16.6 rpg, 4.6 apg in his ~120 poss. per game & 44.2 mpg.

Summary: Shaq is the unquestioned best statistically. Watching them play only further proves that statement.

fpliii

09-03-2013, 12:10 AM

Iverson was a combo guard, but actually lead his team to the Finals. So I consider that more impactful. You could sub Stockton out for him given he went to the Finals twice. But Nash? He never reached the Finals. In regards to Nique over Pippen? It's simple, he was better. Granted his team never made the Finals either so you may need to leave him off the list.

Strongly disagree on all counts, especially the bolded. To each his own I guess though.

fpliii

09-03-2013, 12:12 AM

I would like to see the process of how total rebounding % was gotten for the old players, too easy to throw any random number out there and claim it.

Also TS%? :roll:

Heres Pauks numbers when you give all of them the same possessions and minutes.

Wilt Chamberlain 1961-62:

27.7 ppg, 14.1 rpg, 1.3 apg in 100 poss. per game. & 40 mpg.

50.4 ppg, 25.7 rpg, 2.4 apg in his ~150 poss. per game. & 48.5 mpg.

Hakeem Olajuwon 1992-93:

27.9 ppg, 14.0 rpg, 3.7 apg in his 100 poss. per game & 40 mpg.

26.1 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 3.5 apg in 94.4 poss. per game & 39.5 mpg.

Shaquille O'Neal 1999-00:

31.8 ppg, 14.8 rpg, 4.1 apg in 100 poss. per game & 40 mpg.

29.7 ppg, 13.8 rpg, 3.8 apg in his 93.3 poss. per game. & 40.0 mpg.

Bill Russell 1961-62:

11.2 ppg, 13.9 rpg, 2.7 apg in 100 poss. per game. & 40 mpg.

18.9 ppg, 23.6 rpg, 4.5 apg in his ~150 poss. per game. & 45.2 mpg.

Kareem Abdul Jabbar 1971-72:

26.2 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 3.4 apg in 100 poss. per game & 40 mpg.

34.8 ppg, 16.6 rpg, 4.6 apg in his ~120 poss. per game & 44.2 mpg.

Summary: Shaq is the unquestioned best.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=344&t=955514

I calculated them all, the excel spreadsheet with calculations are in the last post for you to download.

Pauk doesn't have possession data, and every time I call him out on his bullshit 150 possessions a game figure, he ignores me and proceeds to repost it two weeks later.

LAZERUSS

09-03-2013, 12:12 AM

The problem is, you need to account for and-1's since TS% is intended to be a per-possession scoring efficiency measure. By counting all FT's equally, you're not evaluating the same thing.

TS% = PTS / (2 * (FGA + 0.44*FTA))

If you wanted to create a "true" TS%, the only number here you'd need to change is the 0.44, based on how many and-1's a player has. It'd be higher (closer to 0.5) if you never make the shot and have an and-1 opportunity, and lower if you get fouled and make a lot in traffic. We can't evaluate this without play-by-play data though.

Actually I agree 100% with your "and-one" argument (and in fact, I have used it before.) Not only that, but all of Wilt's FTAs counted, but he played in an era when there were 2-to-make-1's, and 3-to-make-2's (as well as single FTAs fouls.) So, if he went 1-3 from the line, while it was a total FT% of .333, it was an ACTUAL FT% of .500.

And all of the above would have made Chamberlain's ACTUAL TS% considerably higher.

As fo my using .50 instead of .44? It is pretty simple math. A FTA is worth a potential one point, and FGA is worth a potential two points. Same with FTM ad FGM. The 3pt shot is a little trickier (but eFG%'s account for it exactly the way I do.) That is a 3ptA is still technically a two-point shot, but a 3ptM is worth 3 points...so you hve to credit a 3ptM as worth 1.5 a 2ptM.

But, in any case, MY true TS% and the one used by the league are still pretty accurate either way. Mine actually tends to hurt Chamberlain more.

Of course, you also need some relevancy, as well. Once again, Chamberlain's TS%'s, as compared to his LEAGUE AVERAGES were MUCH higher.

How about Wilt's '65 EDF's against Russell? He had an eFG% of .555 in a post-season NBA that shot .429. AND, and he had a "Lazeruss" true TS% of .560, ina post-season NBA that shot a "true" TS% of .478. Or over 8% higher!

CavaliersFTW

09-03-2013, 12:13 AM

We already went over this. Even in his volume scoring years he declined steeply.

1960-66 Regular Season: 39.6 PPG / 52.9 TS%
1960-66 Playoffs: 32.8 PPG / 52.0 TS%

7 ppg drop, which is the nearly identical to his near 8 ppg career decline.
lol, who's we? Nobody has gone over it - and you don't want anybody to either, because your wrong. Your still making broad sweeping generalizations that you personally know are slight of hand and misleading. It isn't even accurate to do a "1960-66 vs 1960-66 playoffs/reg season" His roles changed disproportionately reg season vs playoffs, even within that time frame. For example the 1964 season he played as a lower volume scoring high post playmaker under Alex Hannum, and they made it all the way to the Finals that season. Where as 1963 his team didn't even make the playoffs and he averaged 45ppg as a high volume scorer in the regular season. The fact that that monster scoring season is left out of his playoff stats, yet in 1964 he drastically cuts back on scoring and plays more playoff games that season than any other within that time frame is the kind of thing that distorts his stats at a glance and makes them cumulatively misleading. Of course, you wish for nobody to notice or discuss these things.

Odinn

09-03-2013, 12:15 AM

He does cherry pick, as does quite literally everyone does when trying to remind others of what their favorite player was good or great at, and he's actually right about AST% not being an accurate reflection in this case. Another thing to note, assists were not given out the same way in Wilt's era. Which skews the statistic even more. People who get mad when these things are pointed out are just people who don't care about context I guess.
I'm a Duncan fan and when I start to talk about how great Duncan was defensively in his prime, I talk about his '32 blocks in a NBA Finals series' which is a record. A talk about him being the first player since KAJ that produced 30+ points and 15+ rebounds for 4 consecutive playoff games.

He just is so into double-standards. His attitude like 'LeBron is the first player since bla bla season that played with at least 43 points 16 rebounds 9 assists'. He tries way too hard.

Also I know AST% is just BS. And so are all of those BS called advanced stats. The only one that can be useful is TRB% because you do not have to know every single rpg averages season by season and rpg is the only certain individual number that is affected by eras. Other ones? Just throw them outside the window.

SamuraiSWISH

09-03-2013, 12:15 AM

Strongly disagree on all counts, especially the bolded. To each his own I guess though.
Nique was an alpha caliber player, Pippen is made to be a supporting player.

fpliii

09-03-2013, 12:17 AM

Nique was an alpha caliber player, Pippen is made to be a supporting player.

So what? Havlicek, Garnett, Robinson, and a few others were made to be supporting stars as well. I'd take them all over Nique too.

SamuraiSWISH

09-03-2013, 12:23 AM

So what? Havlicek, Garnett, Robinson, and a few others were made to be supporting stars as well. I'd take them all over Nique too.
No, I think Garnett and David Robinson were very much alpha caliber players. They just had shit supporting pieces for way too long. Can't comment on Havlicek as I didn't see him play. Pippen is a jack of all trades, master of none on offense. A do it all on defense. But he needs a better scorer than him to win games. D-Rob and Garnett could both put up 25 ppg + and create shots for themselves and other better than Pippen could.

I should know, I watched Pip's entire career. Guy is a glorified sidekick. A fantastic complimentary piece, but a side piece none the less. Same goes for Pau Gasol. These guy's get overrated by people with an agenda. Nique's best teammates were young Kevin Willis, Stacey Augmon, and defensive beast Mookie Blaylock. No one to suppliment him in the low 20 ppg caliber player the way Pippen and Gasol were.

Deuce Bigalow

09-03-2013, 12:23 AM

lol, who's we? Nobody has gone over it - and you don't want anybody to either, because your wrong. Your still making broad sweeping generalizations that you personally know are slight of hand and misleading. It isn't even accurate to do a "1960-66 vs 1960-66 playoffs/reg season" His roles changed disproportionately reg season vs playoffs, even within that time frame. For example the 1964 season he played as a playmaker under Alex Hannum, and they made the Finals that season. Where as 1963 his team didn't even make the playoffs and he averaged 45ppg in the regular season. The fact that that monster statistical season is left out of his playoff stats, yet in 1964 he drastically cuts back on scoring and plays more playoff games that season than any other within that time frame is the kind of thing you wish for nobody to notice or discuss.
Wow I just debunked your myth and you come with this? Ok, how about we look at 61-62, when he averaged 50 per game in the regular season. What did he do in the postseason? 35 ppg, a 15 ppg drop. Including 22 points in a game 7 loss. And I know he took less shots, but even with the reduced volume, his efficiency dropped too, from 54% TS to 51% TS.

fpliii

09-03-2013, 12:28 AM

No, I think Garnett and David Robinson were very much alpha caliber players. They just had shit supporting pieces for way too long. Can't comment on Havlicek as I didn't see him play. Pippen is a jack of all trades, master of none on offense. A do it all on defense. But he needs a better scorer than him to win games. D-Rob and Garnett could both put up 25 ppg + and create shots for themselves and other better than Pippen could.

I should know, I watched Pip's entire career. Guy is a glorified sidekick. A fantastic complimentary piece, but a side piece none the less. Same goes for Pau Gasol. These guy's get overrated by people with an agenda. Nique's best teammates were young Kevin Willis, Stacey Augmon, and defensive beast Mookie Blaylock. No one to suppliment him in the low 20 ppg caliber player the way Pippen and Gasol were.

Maybe it's just because I weight offense/defense equally. Also, Robinson/KG could put up points, but you likely couldn't win with them as your first option on offense (unless a lot of other things go your way), since neither guy lived in the post and relied too much on his jumpshot. Both are top 10, maybe top 10 defenders all-time though.

CavaliersFTW

09-03-2013, 12:29 AM

Wow I just debunked your myth and you come with this? Ok, how about we look at 61-62, when he averaged 50 per game in the regular season. What did he do in the postseason? 35 ppg, a 15 ppg drop. Including 22 points in a game 7 loss. And I know he took less shots, but even with the reduced volume, his efficiency dropped too, from 54% TS to 51% TS.
Great, now you've cherry picked Wilt's season with the biggest point disparity playoffs to regular season - which no other season even resembles. Of course, your right, his playoff numbers did drop a lot that specific season coming into the playoffs, after all he was facing the Celtics - the #1 defensive team in the league (which held him to 40ppg the regular season that year), throughout the majority of those playoffs. Now go ahead and do every single one of his other playoff seasons, on an individual basis with the regular season stats of ONLY those playoff seasons, and your comparisons will begin to look fair and ubias. You wouldn't want to do that though, I know your mission is to only show Wilt at his worst, and never reveal the whole truth. You only want to make unfavorable comparisons, minus those pesky facts that offer context.

Electric Slide

09-03-2013, 12:29 AM

All are still better than Kobe

fpliii

09-03-2013, 12:32 AM

130 possessions is the absolute minumum these 60s teams were running. It's common knowledge the Celtics had the highest pace among all teams. Either way the figure doesn't need to be exact to get the point across. Wilt and Russells statistics are overblown from playing in an era with much greater pace.

Stats are secondary as well. You should always watch the players first. And after watching some Wilt/Russell footage and then comparing it to 2000 Shaq footage I don't see how anyone who isn't retarded can come to the conclusion that Wilt/Russell are better.

Well, 120s and a couple of teams in 61, 62, 63 were near that 130 point. I agree that the rebounding numbers are high, but they're inarguably top 5 rebounders ever (I have them as the top 2, but it's up to you).

Anyhow, Shaq's my favorite player all-time but I can't put him above either guy. I think at his best he's at or above their level if you purely transplant Russ/Wilt without even an offseason to adjust, but I can't go beyond that.

Anyhow I don't want to get much more into this, just wanted to correct the pauk numbers. We see eye-to-eye on a lot but we'll have to agree to disagree here.

LAZERUSS

09-03-2013, 12:43 AM

Wow I just debunked your myth and you come with this? Ok, how about we look at 61-62, when he averaged 50 per game in the regular season. What did he do in the postseason? 35 ppg, a 15 ppg drop. Including 22 points in a game 7 loss. And I know he took less shots, but even with the reduced volume, his efficiency dropped too, from 54% TS to 51% TS.

Here was the reality of that '62 post-season.

First of all, Chamberlain did not average 50 ppg against Boston in his regular season h2h's with Russell. He averaged 39.7 ppg on a .471 FG%. In a regular season NBA that averaged 118.8 ppg on an eFG% of .426.

In the 61-62 EDF's, he averaged 33.6 ppg on a .468 FG%. In a post-season NBA that averaged 112.6 ppg on an eFG% of .411.

So, yes, Wilt's numbers declined...SLIGHTLY.

Furthermore, Wilt's true TS% in that series (and this does not account for 3-to-make-2's, or 2-to-make-1's)...was .513. BTW, Russell's was .451. The post-season NBA that year? .462. Here again, and as always...Chamberlain's TS% was considerably higher than the post-season LEAGUE AVERAGE...AND, as almost always...his opposing center shot LOWER than the post-season LEAGUE AVERAGE.

Deuce Bigalow

09-03-2013, 12:47 AM

Since Russell and Chamberlain retired at an earlier age and didn't stick around past age 35, lets look at Kareem, Hakeem, and Shaq's stats before they declined steeply. Shaq and Hakeem's Finals stats stay the same since they were all played while they were still young.

1970-1986 Kareem
Regular Season: 26.3 PPG, 16.2 TRB%, 15.2 AST%, 59.5 TS%
Playoffs: 27.3 PPG, 15.3 TRB%, 14.3 AST%, 57.7 TS%
Finals: 26.8 PPG, 57.1 TS%

1993-2006 Shaq
Regular Season: 26.3 PPG, 18.0 TRB%, 14.8 AST%, 58.4 TS%
Playoffs: 25.6 PPG, 18.1 TRB%, 15.1 AST%, 56.7 TS%

1985-1997 Hakeem
Regular Season: 24.2 PPG, 17.5 TRB%, 12.4 AST%, 55.8 TS%
Playoffs: 27.3 PPG, 16.1 TRB%, 16.1 TRB%, 57.5 TS%

Deuce Bigalow

09-03-2013, 12:49 AM

Here was the reality of that '62 post-season.

First of all, Chamberlain did not average 50 ppg against Boston in his regular season h2h's with Russell. He averaged 39.7 ppg on a .471 FG%. In a regular season NBA that averaged 118.8 ppg on an eFG% of .426.

In the 61-62 EDF's, he averaged 33.6 ppg on a .468 FG%. In a post-season NBA that averaged 112.6 ppg on an eFG% of .411.

So, yes, Wilt's numbers declined...SLIGHTLY.

Furthermore, Wilt's true TS% in that series (and this does not account for 3-to-make-2's, or 2-to-make-1's)...was .513. BTW, Russell's was .451. The post-season NBA that year? .462. Here again, and as always...Chamberlain's TS% was considerably higher than the post-season LEAGUE AVERAGE...AND, as almost always...his opposing center shot LOWER than the post-season LEAGUE AVERAGE.
6.1 PPG drop is "slightly"? Again, nearly indentical to his career PPG drop of 7.6

Deuce Bigalow

09-03-2013, 12:57 AM

Great, now you've cherry picked Wilt's season with the biggest point disparity playoffs to regular season - which no other season even resembles. Of course, your right, his playoff numbers did drop a lot that specific season coming into the playoffs, after all he was facing the Celtics - the #1 defensive team in the league (which held him to 40ppg the regular season that year), throughout the majority of those playoffs. Now go ahead and do every single one of his other playoff seasons, on an individual basis with the regular season stats of ONLY those playoff seasons, and your comparisons will begin to look fair and ubias. You wouldn't want to do that though, I know your mission is to only show Wilt at his worst, and never reveal the whole truth. You only want to make unfavorable comparisons, minus those pesky facts that offer context.
Okay, I will do that. Then after I do it will you admit that Wilt declined? Or you'll make up another excuse?

LAZERUSS

09-03-2013, 01:01 AM

6.1 PPG drop is "slightly"? Again, nearly indentical to his career PPG drop of 7.6

Give me a list of centers who averaged a 33.6 ppg, 26.9 rpg, with a TS% of +5.0% over the league average, and who held their opposing center to a TS% of -1.0% under the league average.

That was a "declining" Wilt.

BTW, how about Chamberlain in his '65 EDF's against Russell? 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, a .555 FG% (in a post-season NBA that had an eFG% of .429), and a true TS% of .560, in a post-season NBA that had a TS% of .478. Oh, and Russell's TS%? .450. So, again, Chamberlain was +8.2% above the LEAGUE AVERAGE (and scoring 30 ppg in the process), and he held his opposing center to -2.8% BELOW the league average. Just incredible!

Marchesk

09-03-2013, 01:07 AM

6.1 PPG drop is "slightly"? Again, nearly indentical to his career PPG drop of 7.6

But why was that? In the 15 point drop where he went from 50 ppg to 35, he was taking 11 less shots in the playoffs. Was that a deliberate strategy? Someone posted in the other thread that McGuire had Wilt moved to the high post before the Boston series.

LAZERUSS

09-03-2013, 01:07 AM

BTW, had Shaq taken 29 FGAs per game against Hakeem in the '95 Finals, like Hakeem did, instead of the 19 he did average...he likely would have averaged 40 ppg in that series.

Deuce Bigalow

09-03-2013, 01:13 AM

Deuce Bigalow

09-03-2013, 01:22 AM

Here's Finals too

Regular season PPG -- Finals PPG
36.9 -- 29.2 (-7.7)
24.7 -- 17.7 (-7.0)
20.5 -- 11.7 (-8.8)
27.3 -- 23.3 (-4.0)
14.8 -- 19.4 (+4.6)
13.2 -- 11.6 (-1.6)

LAZERUSS

09-03-2013, 01:25 AM

Regular season PPG -- Playoffs PPG
37.6 -- 33.2 (-4.4)
38.4 -- 37.0 (-1.4)
50.4 -- 35/0 (-15.4)
44.8 -- N/A
36.9 -- 34.7 (-2.2)
34.7 -- 29.3 (-5.4)
33.8 -- 28.0 (-5.8)
24.7 -- 21.7 (-3.0)
24.3 -- 23.7 (-0.6)
20.5 -- 13.9 (-6.6)
27.3 -- 22.1 (-5.2)
20.7 -- 18.3 (-2.5)
14.8 -- 14.7 (-0.1)
13.2 -- 10.4 (-2.8)

Career Regular season PPG -- Career Playoffs PPG
30.1 -- 22.5 (-7.6)

Context...

Wilt only played 52 of his 160 post-season games in his "scoring" prime. And, even in those, he faced Russell and the swarming Celtics in 30 of them.

Furthermore, he missed the playoffs when his cast of clowns teammates were so bad (and a season later Hannum had them play a bunch of rookies, without Wilt, and they lost)...in a season in which Chamberlain averaged 44.8 ppg on .528 shooting (and 38.1 ppg against Russell in nine h2h's.)

All told, Chamberlain faced a HOF starting center in 105 of his 160 post-season games, and a multiple all-star in another 26...for a total of 131 of his 160 games against either a very good, to a great center. Oh, an he faced a PRIME KAJ in 11, Reed in 12, Thurmond in 17 (whom KAJ could only shoot a career .440 against in 50 h2h games), and Russell in 49.

Deuce Bigalow

09-03-2013, 01:28 AM

Context...

Wilt only played 52 of his 160 post-season games in his "scoring" prime. And, even in those, he faced Russell and the swarming Celtics in 30 of them.

Furthermore, he missed the playoffs when his cast of clowns teammates were so bad (and a season later Hannum had them play a bunch of rookies, without Wilt, and they lost)...in a season in which Chamberlain averaged 44.8 ppg on .528 shooting (and 38.1 ppg against Russell in nine h2h's.)

All told, Chamberlain faced a HOF starting center in 105 of his 160 post-season games, and a multiple all-star in another 26...for a total of 131 of his 160 games against either a very good, to a great center. Oh, an he faced a PRIME KAJ in 11, Reed in 12, Thurmond in 17 (whom KAJ could only shoot a career .440 against in 50 h2h games), and Russell in 49.
1960-66 Regular Season: 39.6 PPG / 52.9 TS%
1960-66 Playoffs: 32.8 PPG / 52.0 TS%

-6.8 PPG / -0.9 TS%

LAZERUSS

09-03-2013, 01:29 AM

1960-66 Regular Season: 39.6 PPG / 52.9 TS%
1960-66 Playoffs: 32.8 PPG / 52.0 TS%

-6.8 PPG / -0.9 TS%

52 games, not including his '63 season in which he averaged 45 ppg on .528 shooting, 30 of which were against the greatest defensive center in the history of the game...

Take out his '63 season, (BTW, he averaged 38.1 ppg against Russell in nine H2H's that season), and his scoring average drops to 38.7 ppg.

Factor in that he faced Russell in 60% of those 52 games...and a 32.8 ppg in post-seasons that dropped in scoring and TS%...and Chamberlain's post-season numbers look extraordinary don't you think????

And once again, post the post-season league TS%'s, as well as his opposing starting centers.

Oh, and how about his rebounding numbers, as well? And his opposing center's?

Deuce Bigalow

09-03-2013, 01:32 AM

52 games, not including his '63 season in which he averaged 45 ppg on .528 shooting, 30 of which were against the greatest defensive center in the history of the game...
First 7 years

Regular season PPG -- Playoffs PPG
37.6 -- 33.2 (-4.4)
38.4 -- 37.0 (-1.4)
50.4 -- 35/0 (-15.4)
44.8 -- N/A
36.9 -- 34.7 (-2.2)
34.7 -- 29.3 (-5.4)
33.8 -- 28.0 (-5.8)

His only Finals appereance during his first 7 years

Regular season PPG -- Finals PPG
36.9 -- 29.2 (-7.7)

LAZERUSS

09-03-2013, 01:38 AM

First 7 years

Regular season PPG -- Playoffs PPG
37.6 -- 33.2 (-4.4)
38.4 -- 37.0 (-1.4)
50.4 -- 35/0 (-15.4)
44.8 -- N/A
36.9 -- 34.7 (-2.2)
34.7 -- 29.3 (-5.4)
33.8 -- 28.0 (-5.8)

His only Finals appereance during his first 7 years

Regular season PPG -- Finals PPG
36.9 -- 29.2 (-7.7)

In eight regular season h2h's with Russell in the '63-64 season, he averaged 29.1 ppg. Oh wait...his scoring went UP against him in the Finals...

BTW, Russell averaged 14.3 ppg against Wilt in those eight regular season h2h's...and 11.2 ppg against him in the Finals.

Marchesk

09-03-2013, 01:41 AM

Here's Finals too

Regular season PPG -- Finals PPG
36.9 -- 29.2 (-7.7)
24.7 -- 17.7 (-7.0)
20.5 -- 11.7 (-8.8)
27.3 -- 23.3 (-4.0)
14.8 -- 19.4 (+4.6)
13.2 -- 11.6 (-1.6)

Based on that, his finals average is about 4.5 points less than his regular season. So in Wilt's prime scoring, he would have been averaging around 35 a game in the finals, had he made it past the Celtics those years.

Comparing his playoff vs regular season stats during the years he averaged 39.5 a game in the regular season:

Wilt had 31.4 FGA on 51.1% vs 26.5 FA on 50.2% in the playoffs.

So he was getting about 5 less shots a game in the playoffs, for whatever reason.

His regular season FT% during that time was 53.4 and his playoff was 51.3%.

LAZERUSS

09-03-2013, 01:44 AM

Incidently, in Hakeem's greatest post-season series against a HOF center, in the '95 WCF's, and against Robinson, he had a true TS% of .581, while Robinson's true TS% was at .536, in a post-season NBA that had a true TS% of .541.

Compare that with this...

BTW, how about Chamberlain in his '65 EDF's against Russell? 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, a .555 FG% (in a post-season NBA that had an eFG% of .429), and a true TS% of .560, in a post-season NBA that had a TS% of .478. Oh, and Russell's TS%? .450. So, again, Chamberlain was +8.2% above the LEAGUE AVERAGE (and scoring 30 ppg in the process), and he held his opposing center to -2.8% BELOW the league average. Just incredible!

An unfathomable post-season league differential of +8.2% and a total differential, against his opposing HOF center of +11.0%...

LAZERUSS

09-03-2013, 01:58 AM

As for Chamberlain's "declining" in his post-season...

how about this gem...

In Chamberlain's 64-65 season, and in 11 regular season h2h's with Russell, he averaged 25.4 ppg on a .473 FG%.

In the EDF's against Russell and his 62-18 Celtics, in his seven games, Chamberlain averaged 30.1 ppg on a .555 FG%!!!!!!!!!

Pursuer

09-03-2013, 02:00 AM

CavaliersFTW

09-03-2013, 02:17 AM

Deuce Bigalow

09-03-2013, 03:32 AM

I think you'd have to calculate manually.

TRB% = 100 * (TRB * (Tm MP / 5)) / (MP * (Tm TRB + Opp TRB))
AST% = 100 * AST / (((MP / (Tm MP / 5)) * Tm FG) - FG)

All of the data should be available on basketball-reference.com except for assists in the 59 Finals. I'd help but I'm busy at the moment.

Four more threads is probably too much work, so one more each for guards and forwards is probably a better bet. The bolded are also strange inclusions (over Stockton/Nash and Pippen respectively); I'm also assuming these aren't in order. Your call though I guess.
There is no Opp TRB available for pre 70-71 on bball reference.

fpliii

09-03-2013, 08:01 AM

There is no Opp TRB available for pre 70-71 on bball reference.

In the Finals? I think you'd have to add the numbers up for all players on both teams.

kshutts1

09-03-2013, 08:58 AM

Assists used to only count for catch-and-shoot made baskets. You now get a dribble and a couple of steps, or something along those lines (we'd need to check a statistician's manual to be sure of the exact definition).

AST% is still fine to compare players within the same season since assists were awarded with the same standards in that year.
The argument in the quoted thread is why assists PER GAME are not a quality standard measure across eras.

Assist PERCENTAGE 100% is a quality measurement. Every other player in that era dealt with the same "difficulty" getting an assist relative to today. It's a percentage. It works.

kshutts1

09-03-2013, 09:10 AM

I can't wait until I have time to read all of this thread.

Nothing I like more than math nerds arguing. (surprising, that's not sarcasm)

Psileas

09-03-2013, 09:10 AM

Regular season PPG -- Playoffs PPG
37.6 -- 33.2 (-4.4)
38.4 -- 37.0 (-1.4)
50.4 -- 35/0 (-15.4)
44.8 -- N/A
36.9 -- 34.7 (-2.2)
34.7 -- 29.3 (-5.4)
33.8 -- 28.0 (-5.8)
24.7 -- 21.7 (-3.0)
24.3 -- 23.7 (-0.6)
20.5 -- 13.9 (-6.6)
27.3 -- 22.1 (-5.2)
20.7 -- 18.3 (-2.5)
14.8 -- 14.7 (-0.1)
13.2 -- 10.4 (-2.8)

Career Regular season PPG -- Career Playoffs PPG
30.1 -- 22.5 (-7.6)

Of course, I'd done this lots of years ago - actually, when I first got his full stats and I immediately realized how bogus this "-7.6" was. He only had a single playoff season when he fell by at least that much and only another season when he even came close to this number. Having missed the playoffs in his 2nd most prolific season enhanced this (not so) "paradox", since, if we remove that season, we're talking about 28.8 ppg. Add this to the unequal number of games he played in his high scoring vs his non high scoring seasons and only then does -7.6 make sense.

fpliii

09-03-2013, 09:12 AM

The argument in the quoted thread is why assists PER GAME are not a quality standard measure across eras.

Assist PERCENTAGE 100% is a quality measurement. Every other player in that era dealt with the same "difficulty" getting an assist relative to today. It's a percentage. It works.

Right, but assist percentage isn't the percentage of team assists for which a player's responsible. Rather, it's the percent of total made field goals on which that guy was determined to have assisted. Total assists are in the numerator of AST% so if they're the only number changing, it has a direct impact on the stat. Suppose that there's a 10% increase due to the change: AST% jumps to literally 110%.

If you're comparing AST% in the same season, that's fine. But comparing guys on the basis of that metric 30 years apart when one player operated before the change and one after causes problems.

kshutts1

09-03-2013, 09:15 AM

Right, but assist percentage isn't the percentage of team assists for which a player's responsible. Rather, it's the percent of total made field goals on which that guy was determined to have assisted. Total assists are in the numerator of AST% so if they're the only number changing, it has a direct impact on the stat. Suppose that there's a 10% increase due to the change: AST% jumps to literally 110%.

If you're comparing AST% in the same season, that's fine. But comparing guys on the basis of that metric 30 years apart when one player operated before the change and one after causes problems.

:biggums:

Thanks for shedding light. I figured assist% was percentage of one's teams assists one had. My way makes more sense.

fpliii

09-03-2013, 09:29 AM

Actually, the 0.44 doesn't just account for and-1's. It accounts for free throws that end a possesion. That means and-1 free throws, the second free-throw on a 2pt shot foul and the thrid three-throw on the 3pt shot foul, along with technical and unsportsmanlike free throws. It means that only 44 percent of all free-throws taken in the league end a possesion.

Correct. I just singled out and-1's because for the guys in this thread (all centers) technical and unsportsmanlike FTs are not relevant (since centers aren't taking those) as are 3PA fouls, so and-1's are for the most part responsible for the deviation from 0.5 (which is what you'd have if only two shot FTs are counted). That's operating under today's rules though, so it's not 100% accurate.

For seasons up to and including 80-81, if either FTA is missed in a shooting foul, players got an extra penalty FTA. Same after and-1's. These three-to-make-two and two-to-make-one fouls really make the data difficult, since the extra missed FTA was still recorded. In this case the 0.44 might be higher (artificially lowering TS% for a guy attempting a lot of free throws who is exceptionally poor at shooting them, like a Wilt, since he's being credited as using more possessions than he did, increasing the denominator).

EDIT: In my last sentence, just to clarify, I meant to say that "In this case the 0.44 might be higher than it should be."

LAZERUSS

09-03-2013, 11:31 AM

Of course, I'd done this lots of years ago - actually, when I first got his full stats and I immediately realized how bogus this "-7.6" was. He only had a single playoff season when he fell by at least that much and only another season when he even came close to this number. Having missed the playoffs in his 2nd most prolific season enhanced this (not so) "paradox", since, if we remove that season, we're talking about 28.8 ppg. Add this to the unequal number of games he played in his high scoring vs his non high scoring seasons and only then does -7.6 make sense.

The "Wilt-bashers" would NEVER go this indepth...either because they don't want to state what this clearly shows...or because they are just plain ignorant.

LAZERUSS

09-03-2013, 03:32 PM

Of course, I'd done this lots of years ago - actually, when I first got his full stats and I immediately realized how bogus this "-7.6" was. He only had a single playoff season when he fell by at least that much and only another season when he even came close to this number. Having missed the playoffs in his 2nd most prolific season enhanced this (not so) "paradox", since, if we remove that season, we're talking about 28.8 ppg. Add this to the unequal number of games he played in his high scoring vs his non high scoring seasons and only then does -7.6 make sense.

And what is truly laughable in all of this is ...

How many other players in NBA history, have posted career playoff numbers of 22.5 ppg, 24.5 rpg, .522 FG% (in post-seasons that averaged .430 in that span)? And those numbers cover 160 post-season games, too. Nor do they reflect just how dominant he was against his OPPOSING centers in his 29 playoff series, either.

But, because it was WILT...well, the guy "choked."

Deuce Bigalow

09-03-2013, 04:20 PM

In the Finals? I think you'd have to add the numbers up for all players on both teams.
Ok I will do the Finals. But for SGs, Jerry West is missing TRB% from most of his career, and of course was never top 10 in a season in TRB% so I can't get the numbers from your thread.

Deuce Bigalow

09-03-2013, 04:39 PM

And what is truly laughable in all of this is ...

How many other players in NBA history, have posted career playoff numbers of 22.5 ppg, 24.5 rpg, .522 FG% (in post-seasons that averaged .430 in that span)? And those numbers cover 160 post-season games, too. Nor do they reflect just how dominant he was against his OPPOSING centers in his 29 playoff series, either.

But, because it was WILT...well, the guy "choked."
NBA Playoffs

Bill Russell - 16.2 PPG, 20.9 TRB%, 13.3 AST%, 47.4 TS%

Wilt Chamberlain - 22.5 PPG, 21.9 TRB%, 12.9 AST%, 52.4 TS%

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 24.3 PPG, 14.6 TRB%, 13.2 AST%, 57.1 TS%

Hakeem Olajuwon - 25.9 PPG, 16.0 TRB%, 15.6 AST%, 56.9 TS%

Shaquille O'Neal - 24.3 PPG, 18.0 TRB%, 14.7 AST%, 56.5 TS%

NBA Finals

Bill Russell - 16.4 PPG, 53.2 TS%

Wilt Chamberlain - 18.6 PPG, 52.8 TS%

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 23.5 PPG, 55.6 TS%

Hakeem Olajuwon - 28.0 PPG, 53.4 TS%

Shaquille O'Neal - 28.8 PPG, 59.0 TS%

I will add the TRB% in their Finals performances soon. But as you can clearly see, other centers in history have outscored, shot more efficiently, and had a higher AST% than Wilt in the Playoffs. This is still the case even when players like Kareem, Shaq, and Hakeem all kept on playing well past their primes and decreased their career averages. Wilt was he better postseason rebounder than every other center in history, at least he has that.

riseagainst

09-03-2013, 04:43 PM

Explain this to me first...

Secondly...how about this...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123855027541776617.html

Finally...Hakeem's '95 NBA averaged 1916 assists per team, or 23.4 apg per team. Chamberlain's '67 NBA averaged 1817 assists per team (in one less game) for an average of 22.4 apg, per team. Yet Wilt's '67 NBA averaged 117.4 ppg, while Hakeem's '95 NBA averaged 101.4 ppg. CLEARLY something changed in the way assists were given out in the near 30 years time frame.

Now I ask you...how is AST% NOT flawed?

AST% is the percentage of assists that player contributes while he is on the floor. Who's to say that Wilt's teammates didn't get all their assists while Wilt's on the floor? I mean he practically played 48 minutes a game every game.

fpliii

09-03-2013, 06:01 PM

Ok I will do the Finals. But for SGs, Jerry West is missing TRB% from most of his career, and of course was never top 10 in a season in TRB% so I can't get the numbers from your thread.

I'll post the Excel links when I get home.

AST% is the percentage of assists that player contributes while he is on the floor. Who's to say that Wilt's teammates didn't get all their assists while Wilt's on the floor? I mean he practically played 48 minutes a game every game.

False, AST% is the percentage of made shots on which a player assisted while on the floor (see the definition above, from the basketball-reference.com glossary). It's independent of his teammates' assists as long as FGM is constant.

fpliii

09-03-2013, 06:16 PM

Here are the links:

Regular Seasons: http://www2.zippyshare.com/v/2729139/file.html

Playoffs: http://www2.zippyshare.com/v/41530911/file.html

Some of the team names are mislabeled in later seasons for whatever reason, I'll fix them when I have a chance.

LAZERUSS

09-03-2013, 11:59 PM

NBA Playoffs

Bill Russell - 16.2 PPG, 20.9 TRB%, 13.3 AST%, 47.4 TS%

Wilt Chamberlain - 22.5 PPG, 21.9 TRB%, 12.9 AST%, 52.4 TS%

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 24.3 PPG, 14.6 TRB%, 13.2 AST%, 57.1 TS%

Hakeem Olajuwon - 25.9 PPG, 16.0 TRB%, 15.6 AST%, 56.9 TS%

Shaquille O'Neal - 24.3 PPG, 18.0 TRB%, 14.7 AST%, 56.5 TS%

NBA Finals

Bill Russell - 16.4 PPG, 53.2 TS%

Wilt Chamberlain - 18.6 PPG, 52.8 TS%

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 23.5 PPG, 55.6 TS%

Hakeem Olajuwon - 28.0 PPG, 53.4 TS%

Shaquille O'Neal - 28.8 PPG, 59.0 TS%

I will add the TRB% in their Finals performances soon. But as you can clearly see, other centers in history have outscored, shot more efficiently, and had a higher AST% than Wilt in the Playoffs. This is still the case even when players like Kareem, Shaq, and Hakeem all kept on playing well past their primes and decreased their career averages. Wilt was he better postseason rebounder than every other center in history, at least he has that.

Duece, these numbers are almsot meaningless without proper CONTEXT.

How about showing their TS% compared to a), the league average, and b) against their peers.

For example, we KNOW that Shaq not only blew away the post-season league average in TS% in his '95 Finals against Hakeem, but that he held Hakeem way below it. THAT has relevancy.

You already admitted Chamberlain was the greatest rebounder of the group, but how about posting his TRB% against his opposing centers, as well. He was just murdering Russell in some of their post-season h2h series.