Wilt's HOF "Help" In The Playoffs [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

LAZERUSS

09-03-2013, 11:01 AM

Quote:
Wilt played with 9 Hall of Fame teammates

'60 - Paul Arizen, Tom Gola
'61 - Paul Arizen, Tom Gola
'62 - Paul Arizen, Tom Gola
'63 - Tom Gola
'64 - Nate Thurmond
'65 - Nate Thurmond, Hal Greer, Chet Walker
'66 - Hal Greer, Billy Cunningham, Chet Walker
'67 - Hal Greer, Billy Cunningham, Chet Walker
'68 - Hal Greer, Billy Cunningham, Chet Walker
'69 - Jerry West, Elgin Baylor
'70 - Jerry West, Elgin Baylor
'71 - Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Gail Goodrich
'72 - Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Gail Goodrich
'73 - Jerry West, Gail Goodrich

Wilt's teammates that were All-Stars but NOT HOFers

'62 - Tom Mescherry
'63 - Guy Rodgers
'64 - Guy Rodgers
'65 - Luke Jackson

Wilt had Hall Of Fame teammates on his team every single season of his career. 12/14 seasons he had at least 2 HOF teammates.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Playoff FG%'s...

'60 Arizin .431 Gola .412
'61 Arizin .325 Gola .206
'62 Arizin .375 Gola .271
'63 Gola...played 21 games and was shipped out
'64 Thurmond .438
'65 Thurmond (?)...half the season. Greer .455 Walker .480
'66 Greer .352 Cunningham .161 Walker .375
'67 Greer .429 Walker .467 Cunningham .376
'68 Greer .432 Walker .410 Cunningham broke wrist in first round (played 3 games)
'69 West .469 Baylor .385
'70 West .469 Baylor .466
'71 West and Baylor...both injured and do not play in playoffs. Goodrich .425
'72 Baylor retires after 9 nine games. West .376. Goodrich .445
'73 West .449 Goodrch .448

'62 Meschery was NOT an all-star. Shoots .397 in playoffs.
'63 Meschery (* All Star. Played 64 games. 16 ppg .425 FG% during season.)
'63 Rodgers (shoots .387 in regular season.
'64 Rodgers .329 in post-season.
'65 Jackson .338 in playoffs.

LAZERUSS

09-03-2013, 11:21 AM

And, with all of the above "Help", Wilt still...

Played in SIX Conference Finals

Played in SIX Finals

Won TWO Rings

Lost to the eventual champion TEN times

So, in his 13 post-seasons, he either played against the eventual champion, or won a ring, in TWELVE of them.

Lost FIVE game SEVENs,... FOUR by margins of 4, 2, 2, and 1 point.

LAZERUSS

09-03-2013, 11:57 AM

'60 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .380 from the field. Lose game six of EDF's.

'61 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .332 from the field. Lose in 1st round.

'62 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .354 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'64 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .383 from the field. Lose in game five of Finals.

'65 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .413 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'66 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .352 from the field. Lose in game five of EDF's.

'67 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .428 from the field. Wins Title

'68 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .416 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'69 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .421 from the field. Lose gaeme seven of Finals.

'70 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .469 from the field. Lose game seven of Finals.

'71 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .446 from the field. Lose game five of WCF's.

'72 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .414 from the field. Wins Title.

'73 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .446 from the field. Lose game five of Finals.

Iceman#44

09-03-2013, 12:41 PM

Great stuff! Wilt is really the MDE

JimmyMcAdocious

09-03-2013, 12:46 PM

Wilt is most definitely the MDE.

Iceman#44

09-03-2013, 12:48 PM

Lazeruss, have you the shooting% of wilt in all his 50 points games? Would love to see that

Kblaze8855

09-03-2013, 01:02 PM

Youre getting as disrespectfull as some of these kids hating on Wilt. I know you feel a need to downplay his teammates but some of these guys did too much for the game for me to ignore you hating to prop up Wilt.

You really think its fair to list Paul Arizins shooting percentage of 43 to act like he played poorly? Dude put up 26/10/4 that year in the playoffs. Almost as much as he did to lead the Warriors to a title before Wilt was even in the league. Sure he got old and fell off quickly but thats what being 30 did to you in the 50s. But he held his own.

And Guy? He was never there to score. He was there to run offenses, push the tempo, and make plays. Which is why he was first or second in the NBA in assists 8 years in a row and how he broke Cousys single season assist record. He had the single game record 28 for years. He had 20 assists the night Wilt scored 100.

Oscar Robertson says hes the best ballhandler and passer he ever saw...ahead of Cousy. Wilt himself said Guy was better point guard than Cousy, Pistol Pete, or Walt Frazier.

Coach John Chaney considered Guy the best conditioned and best fast break pointguard of all time.

"I used to hate to match up with him," said Bob Cousy, the great point guard for the Boston Celtics. "You knew you had to work at both ends of the court."
For all his skills, Mr. Rodgers' contemporaries considered him underappreciated. Cousy was surprised to find out yesterday that Mr. Rodgers was not a member of the Basketball Hall of Fame. Cousy thought it was because Mr. Rodgers spent his early years as Wilt Chamberlain's point guard with the Philadelphia Warriors, and "everyone around Wilt was in the shadows."

"I think it was that," said Al Attles, Mr. Rodgers' backcourt partner and roommate with the Warriors and now a Warriors vice president in Oakland. "Plus, Bob was the standard bearer for point guards, and the Celtics also were winning. Of course, we didn't have the television then. People couldn't see what Guy was doing."

Whatever he shot from the field...its obvious that isnt a fair judge of his input. Not when Oscar, Wilt, Cousy, and great coaches rank him among the best they ever saw. Besides hes taking 12 shots in a game with 190 posessions. Not like hes gunning his way to 2-29 and costing his team the game. Cousy led the NBA in shots one or two times. Guy when he was with Wilt was barely shooting relative to the times.

He was a pass first point guard. Talking about him shooting 38% like hes a scorer first?

Guy is dead and gone just like Wilt. Hes almost totally forgotten. Only time he seems to come up is when you feel like hating on him. He should probably be in the HOF with Wilt. He deserves a lot more respect.

And Paul?

He and Fulks pretty much invented the jump shot, he was maybe the best scorer of all time pre Wilt, and he left to join the Marines in the Korean war dead in the middle of his prime. Team went 12-57 without him.

He was old by Wilts day but he was hardly someone to be laughed at. He put up 23/7 in his last run.

They were good friends. Paul Arizin spoke at Wilts funeral. This is a story he told about his old friend:

In 1993, Arizin's granddaughter Stephanie, unbeknownst to her family, wrote a letter to Wilt asking for an autograph. Stephanie was then 11 years old.

She had written to Wilt in care of the Lakers, and the letter was forwarded to the office of Wilt's attorney and best friend, Sy Goldberg. But because Goldberg's office had moved and Wilt was often inattentive to his mail, the letter was not even opened for THREE years.

When Wilt finally got around to reading it, he immediately called the then-14-year-old Stephanie in suburban Philadelphia, and Wilt and the young girl quickly established an unusual rapport.

Wilt later called Stephanie's father (the son of his former teammate Paul) at work to tell him how much he had enjoyed talking to Stephanie and apologized that it had taken him so long to respond. "She must have thought I was such a jerk, not answering a little girl's request," Wilt said... "I had to call her up and let her know what happened."

It was then that Michael Arizin (Stephanie's father and Paul's son) informed Wilt that, only a week before, Stephanie had been diagnosed with a brain tumor and had been given 12 to 18 months to live. She had never mentioned the illness in her conversations with Wilt.

Wilt promised to stay in touch with Stephanie on a regular basis. True to his word, Wilt spoke to Stephanie Arizin almost every Friday, often for an hour, during the last 15 months of her life. On July 30, 1997, Stephanie passed away at age 16.

Right after her death, Wilt, who was to live little more than two more years himself, sent this telegram:

To the Arizin family:
My sincerest condolences. I am here for you, all of you, if ever I am needed.
I may have tears in my eyes... I lost a friend who was full of strength and loved life passionately... From Stehpanie I realize that you're never too old to learn and never too young to teach. Her body may now be gone, but in my memory she can always be reached. I will forever rejoice in my memory of what she brought to my life in our very short time of friendship.
Love and peace,
"Dippy"
Wilt Chamberlain

Paul Arizin and his family were good friends to Wilt and I remember hearing wilt say that Paul taught him what it was to be a professional.

But 50 years later a Wilt fan only mentions him to hate because someone had the audacity to say Wilt had good teammates?

Wilt Chamberlain himself would probably laugh at you mocking Paul and Guy Rodgers.

Some kid being wrong about Wilt or making a joke doesnt mean you need to do the same to legends Wilt respected just because they dont have some obsessed fan to defend them.

CavaliersFTW

09-03-2013, 01:09 PM

Wilt's teammates weren't necessarily bad, the problem wasn't his teammates, the problem was the Boston Celtics.

Had the Celtics not existed - Wilt and a few other teams and HOF'ers from his time period would have ALL had a lot more rings. The Celtics were stacked though, more stacked than any other team. This seems to be the consensus of every NON-CELTIC player, HOF or otherwise, from that time period. They all lost at the hands of the Celtics, it wasn't just Wilt. And Wilt wasn't losing because of "no help" / "bad teammates" ... or w/e. He lost because he and the entire rest of the league all had LESS help than the Celtics organization.

LAZERUSS

09-03-2013, 02:20 PM

I don't want to waste "internet space" and recopy his post...

KBlaze,

Regarding Arizin....

If you have read some of my previous takes on this topic (and I'm sure you have)...I have consistently stated that Arizin was really Chamberlain's only legitimate teammate in his Warrior years. Especially in the Russell-Wilt "teammates" argument.

Arizin was Chamberlain's ONLY "scoring" teammate up until his Sixer years. What do I mean by that? Take a look at Russell's teammates: Cousy, Sharman, Heinsohn, Sam Jones, Havlicek, and later Howell. ALL of them had MULTIPLE 20+ ppg seasons in their careers. Sam Jones had seasons, with Russell, of 26 ppg and post-seasons of 29 ppg. And we all know how well Havlicek scored WITH Russell (multiple 20 ppg seasons), but especially AFTER Russell (seasons of 28 and 29 ppg.)

Now, take a look at Wilt's teammates "pre-Sixers." We can't count Thurmond, because he played the same position as Chamberlain. And I won't count Naulls, since he was washed up by the time he played with Wilt (and BTW, contrary to what Bill Simmons said, Naulls played WORSE with Russell.)

The ONLY player who had a 20+ ppg season, regardless of whether they played with Chamberlain, or not, was Arizin. Those that say that Wilt was a selfish stats-padder need to realize that his numbers never really affected his teammates. Other than Arizin, NONE of them were capable scorers.

Having said all of that, though, Arizin was past his prime when he and Chamberlain were paired up. He was still an outstanding scorer (hell, he averaged nearly as many ppg WITH Wilt, as he did before Chamberlain.) But, the two only played together for three years, and in the last two post-seasons, the facts were clear...Arizin was simply not very good.

You didn't mention Gola, but I will. He is a HOFer, but he was never an NBA HOFer. At his peak, he was a hardnosed all-around player, who excelled at nothing. His career numbers speak for themselves. His PEAK numbers, speak for themselves. But, not only that, he was probably the WORST post-season "HOFer" in NBA history. And before someone jumps up and claims it was because of WILT...a) his best seasons were WITH Chamberlain, and b) he played just as horribly in his post-seasons, withOUT Chamberlain. I honestly believe you could take Stevie Wonder, put him in the midst of a hurricane, and he would have shot better.

And speaking of shooting...

Guy Rodgers. Yes, Wilt has always spoke highly of him. He was undoubtably one of the best passers of his era. The problem was, and I'm sure you are aware of it, as well...he was perhaps the worst shooter in NBA history (relative to league average.) Granted, Had he realized just how pathetic a shooter he was, and limited his role to the same as KC Jones, he would have been a great asset. Unfortunately, he always thought he might make the next one...and continued to mis-fire his entire career (and even well AFTER Chamberlain.)

The second half of game four of the 1964 NBA Finals is available on YouTube. Just watch it. Here was Chamberlain, who would put up a 27-38 game, while holding Russell to an 8-19 game...and the only reason that the Warriors were even in the game...and yet, Rodgers is running amok, and throwing up bricks that were bouncing off the top of the backboard. Had Rodgers just continued to feed Wilt, the Warriors likely would have won that game (they lost 98-95.) SF probably still would not have won that series (Chamberlain was outgunned in HOFers, 8-2...and his lone HOF teammates was his backup), but given the fact that they barely lost game five, who knows how that series might have played out?

Of course the real reason I made this post, was to (hopefully) put an end to this nonsense (and perpetuated by Simmons) that Wilt had all of these so-called "HOF" teammates. Even if we were to credit Gola (and KC Jones) with being legitimate HOFers (which, neither were)...Russell played alongside his HOF teammates for 71 full seasons. Wilt? 27.

And it wasn't just the quantity, either. Russell's teammates repeatedly stepped up in the post-season. My god, even Russell has stated that Sam Jones was given the ball eight times in critical situations, and produced in EVERY one of them. And Havlicek likely should have won a couple of FMVPs.

And then take a look at what I posted above. Wilt's teammates repeatedly puked all over themselves. Was it Wilt's fault? I just don't see it. If anything, Chamberlain sacrificed more in the post-season.

Take a look at the 65-66 season as an example. Wilt led the league in scoring, at 33.5 ppg; rebounding, at 24.6 rpg; and set a FG% record of .540; as well as handing out 5.2 apg. All while leading the Sixers to the best record in the league. And, in their H2H's with Boston, the Sixers won the season series, 6-3. And in those nine regular season H2H's, Chamberlain averaged 28.3 ppg, 30.7 rpg, and shot .525 from the floor.

Now, in their EDF's, Chamberlain nearly duplicated his regular season numbers against Boston. He averaged 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg, and shot .509 from the floor. Yet, the Sixers were blown away by Boston, 4-1. How come? take a look at my numbers above...Chamberlain's teammates collectively shot .352 from the field in that series.

So, not only did Wilt have less quality teammates against Russell, they played much worse in the post-season.

To be honest, I am simply amazed at just how competitive Wilt's teams were in the post-season, given just how poorly his teammates played in the majority of them.

How about his 71-72 title run? His teammates collectively shot .414 from the field. And West was just awful (.376 in the post-season, and .325 in the Finals.) Yet they went 12-3 in that playoff run. And, as we know, Chamberlain was just brilliant in that run, particularly in the Finals.

Anyway...this NEEDED to be posted. Maybe it should be stickied. That way any time someone brings up Wilt's "HOF" teammates,. maybe they can get a better picture of what really occurred.

BTW, Wilt's teams were outgunned by HOFers in nearly every post-season. That is also something that is almost never mentioned in these discussions. It wasn't just about the number of HOF teammates, it was also about the number of quality teammates his opposing teams were fielding, as well.

LAZERUSS

09-03-2013, 03:49 PM

BTW,

I posted ALL of Wilt's HOF teammates post-season FG%'s.

Yes, Arizin played well in the '60 post-season. Greer and Walker played reasonably well in the '65 and '67 post-seasons (obviously a title). And, of course West played brilliantly in the '69 and '70 playoffs (albeit he completely choked in game seven of the '70 Finals.) And Goodrich played well in the '72 title run.

But that was basically it.

All of those supposed "HOFers", and only a small number of quality performances by Wilt's teammates in his 13 post-seasons. And once again...going up against the greatest Dynasty in the history of the NBA; then the loaded Knick teams of the early 70's; and the great Bucks teams of the early 70's.

millwad

09-03-2013, 05:10 PM

CavaliersFTW

09-03-2013, 05:15 PM

Iceman#44

09-03-2013, 05:26 PM

Lazeruss, i would like to see % of all 50 point games by wilt...do you have those numbers?

millwad

09-03-2013, 05:27 PM

Wilt played Nate Thurmond in those finals.

That is not what I'm talking about, I am mentioning the fact that he had some badass scorers next to him, something that Jlauber tries to lie about all the time.

CavaliersFTW

09-03-2013, 05:35 PM

That is not what I'm talking about, I am mentioning the fact that he had some badass scorers next to him, something that Jlauber tries to lie about all the time.
Oh I see, well yeah that 76ers squad is one of the greatest teams of all time in terms of talent. Many gifted players on that team, they'd be title contenders almost any NBA season in history so long as they were healthy.

millwad

09-03-2013, 05:49 PM

Oh I see, well yeah that 76ers squad is one of the greatest teams of all time in terms of talent. Many gifted players on that team, they'd be title contenders almost any NBA season in history so long as they were healthy.

It gets so lame to see Jlauber diss Wilt's teammates all the times, sure, he played with some bad players but he also played with amazing players. I mean, all these years of Jlauber on this board and I have never seen him critizice Wilt for his play even once, not even in a single game. If you mention some games where Wilt played poorly Jlauber will reply with, "Wilt's teammates averaged this much and their FG% sucked yadi yadi"...

And especially since Jlauber cherrypicks like crazy, I am seriously wondering if the guy actually believes that Wilt played with bad players overall, he's so delusional.

I never trust anything he writes after his bogus about how "Wilt murdered and abused Kareem in the '67 playoffs". At first I trusted him because he "murdering and abusing" are very strong words but I got skeptical because he always spams about Wilt's amazing stats.

Then I finally checked it up and saw that Wilt got outscored with 23 points per game, shot the ball with worse FG%, shot FT's way worse and that he got outassisted. It's impossible to trust him.

PHILA

09-03-2013, 06:44 PM

title contenders almost any NBA season in history so long as they were healthy.

Almost? There are no seasons in NBA history that team wouldn't contend. :pimp:

I never trust anything he writes after his bogus about how "Wilt murdered and abused Kareem in the '67 playoffs".
In '67 KAJ was still in college (UCLA).

The Evening Independent - Feb 2, 1967 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=g0hQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=N1cDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7006,373282&dq)

http://i.imgur.com/T1Y4q.png

Lawrence Journal-World - Mar 27, 1967 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=hcxTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=zTgNAAAAIBAJ&pg=5777%2C2858089)

http://i.imgur.com/OFaAv.png

KG215

09-03-2013, 06:55 PM

It gets so lame to see Jlauber diss Wilt's teammates all the times, sure, he played with some bad players but he also played with amazing players. I mean, all these years of Jlauber on this board and I have never seen him critizice Wilt for his play even once, not even in a single game. If you mention some games where Wilt played poorly Jlauber will reply with, "Wilt's teammates averaged this much and their FG% sucked yadi yadi"...
I tried to get him to admit if any of Wilt's playoff losses (games and/or series) were, at least partially, Wilt's fault. He sorta kinda started off admitting to one series, before finishing the post with a paragraph or two about how it was actually the coach's fault, not Wilt's.

millwad

09-03-2013, 07:11 PM

Almost? There are no seasons in NBA history that team wouldn't contend. :pimp:

In '67 KAJ was still in college (UCLA).

The Evening Independent - Feb 2, 1967 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=g0hQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=N1cDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7006,373282&dq)

http://i.imgur.com/T1Y4q.png

Lawrence Journal-World - Mar 27, 1967 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=hcxTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=zTgNAAAAIBAJ&pg=5777%2C2858089)

http://i.imgur.com/OFaAv.png

I meant '72 playoffs.

LAZERUSS

09-03-2013, 08:25 PM

He's been up to this for years just to cover up the fact that Wilt couldn't win in his early years.

What's funny is the fact that he always compares Wilt's FG% to the league average, these players were closer to the FG% average of that time compared to the modern. He is always cherry picking.

While we're at it, Wilt in the '67 finals scored the least amount of points per game in the finals among the starting line up for his team. The other 4 averaged following numbers in the finals;

Greer: 26 points (39% FG), 8 rebounds and 6 assists
Walker: 23 points (45% FG), 8.8 rebounds and 3.3 assists
Jones: 20.2 points (45% FG) 3.5 rebounds and 5.3 assists
Cunningham: 19.7 points (45% FG), 5.7 rebounds and 3 assists

But yeah, lets act like Wilt played with scrubs because it fits Jlauber's agenda more.

Interesting...

Here was my post exactly above this one...

BTW,

I posted ALL of Wilt's HOF teammates post-season FG%'s.

Yes, Arizin played well in the '60 post-season. Greer and Walker played reasonably well in the '65 and '67 post-seasons (obviously a title). And, of course West played brilliantly in the '69 and '70 playoffs (albeit he completely choked in game seven of the '70 Finals.) And Goodrich played well in the '72 title run.
But that was basically it.

All of those supposed "HOFers", and only a small number of quality performances by Wilt's teammates in his 13 post-seasons. And once again...going up against the greatest Dynasty in the history of the NBA; then the loaded Knick teams of the early 70's; and the great Bucks teams of the early 70's.

Of course, Chamberlain's teammates actually playing well was not the norm.

And, while you are at it...

Chamberlain was the '67 76ers LEADING scorer, leading rebounder, leading assist man, leading FG% shooter, leading TS% shooter, leading Defensive Win Share player, leading Offensive Win Share player, leading Win Share player, and high PER man.

And you act like he couldn't score in the playoffs. He had the HIGH game in that Sixer post-season, of 41 points. In the clinching game five rout of Boston, he put up 29 points, 22 of which came in the first half when the game was still close. And he had a game of 26 points against Thurmond in the Finals, as well as a clinhing game of 23 points (in which he wiped the floor with Thurmond) while his "leading scorer" teammate Greer scored 15 points on 5-16 shooting.

Oh, and just the season before, he hung a 46 point game on Russell in the clinching loss in the EDF's. And earlier in that same season, he pasted Thurmond with a 45 point game (outscoring Nate by a 45-13 margin.)

Rick Barry, who led the NBA in scoring that year, at 35.6 ppg, said it best...Chamberlain "let him win" because he simply wasn't interested in winning yet another scoring title. EVERYONE in the league KNEW that if Chamberlain wanted to score...he would. Oh, and as always, he had the high scoring game of that '67 season, of 58 points (on 26-34 shooting), just as he did EVERY season in the decade of the 60's. And, the next year he had games of 52, 53, 53, and 68 points...despite "only" averaging 24.3 ppg in the season.

He was even leading the league in scoring as late as the 69-70 season, at 32.2 ppg (on an always efficient .579 FG%)...when he blew out his knee.

So, please, no more nonsense about Wilt's "scoring" in the post-season.

LAZERUSS

09-03-2013, 08:33 PM

Lazeruss, have you the shooting% of wilt in all his 50 points games? Would love to see that

Not sure if it has all of the FG%'s in his 50+ point games, but thanks to Fpliii and Julizaver (and some other's I believe)...here are every one of Wilt's games...albeit, some of them incomplete.

http://www.nbastats.net/

Scroll down until you see Wilt Chamberlain (there are other's there, as well), and click on him. t will open up an excel spreadsheet, with TONs of info on every game Chamberlain played.

As a quick sidenote, there have been six 60+ point games, in which the player shot .700+, and Wilt has FOUR of them, including the record of .829 (29-35) in his very last 60+ point game (66 points.)

Deuce Bigalow

09-03-2013, 08:37 PM

LAZERUSS

09-03-2013, 08:49 PM

Jerry West was the best player in the league in 1969 and 1970. Wilt still lost with him on his team both those years. Just forget about his supporting cast early on and late in his career, and just look at 1969-1970. Having the beat player as your teammate, along with another HOFer in Elgin Baylor, and he still lost. In before your excuses. He lost with the best player on his team twice period.

West was not the best player in the league in either year. Chamberlain was clearly LA's best player in 68-69 (West missed his usual 20 games that year.)And he certainly wasn't when Chamberlain was healthy at the beginning of that 69-70 season (it was WILT who was leading the league in scoring at that time.)

And glad you mentioned Baylor...he who shot .385 in the '69 playoffs, and in the last five games of the '69 Finals, he had four games of 4-18, 2-14, 4-13, and a clinching game seven performance of 8-22 from the floor.

Of course, as I pointed out, even with West playing brilliantly, he and Wilt's other teammates, collectively shot .421 from the field in that post-season (Wilt was at .545.) And in that game seven, while Chamberlain shot .875 from the floor, his teammates collectively shot .360. But, yes, blame Wilt.

And, don't forget in game seven of the '70 Finals...West was just destroyed by Frazier.

fpliii

09-03-2013, 08:56 PM

West was not the best player in the league in either year. Chamberlain was clearly LA's best player in 68-69 (West missed his usual 20 games that year.)And he certainly wasn't when Chamberlain was healthy at the beginning of that 69-70 season (it was WILT who was leading the league in scoring at that time.)

And glad you mentioned Baylor...he who shot .385 in the '69 playoffs, and in the last five games of the '69 Finals, he had four games of 4-18, 2-14, 4-13, and a clinching game seven performance of 8-22 from the floor.

Of course, as I pointed out, even with West playing brilliantly, he and Wilt's other teammates, collectively shot .421 from the field in that post-season (Wilt was at .545.) And in that game seven, while Chamberlain shot .875 from the floor, his teammates collectively shot .360. But, yes, blame Wilt.

And, don't forget in game seven of the '70 Finals...West was just destroyed by Frazier.

OT - Baylor was never the same after getting hurt in the 65 playoffs. He had some more productive years, but he seems to have been a fragment of himself.

Serious questions...

1) After which season do you think Baylor should have retired?

2) Do you feel at any time prior to (1) that he should've taken a smaller role?

LAZERUSS

09-03-2013, 09:01 PM

OT - Baylor was never the same after getting hurt in the 65 playoffs. He had some more productive years, but he seems to have been a fragment of himself.

Serious questions...

1) After which season do you think Baylor should have retired?

2) Do you feel at any time prior to (1) that he should've taken a smaller role?

He was still a very good player until his last game of the '70 Finals. After that he played a total of 11 games.

Having said that, his role in the '70 Finals...as a "third wheel" was about what he should have been in the '69 Finals...instead of shot-jacking his team right out of the Finals.

BTW, he really didn't "retire." He was forced to quit by Sharman. And who could argue with that? The Lakers replaced Baylor with Jim McMillian, and then immeditely ran off 33 straight wins, and an eventual title.

L.Kizzle

09-03-2013, 09:22 PM

Arizin was also past his prime once Wilt got to the league. Tom Gola, one of the worst HOF'ers ever.

His best teams were the 6ers with Greer and Walker (a young Cunningham), who along with Wilt were all peaking about the same time.

When he got to the Lakers, Baylor was basically a shell of his former self. Think of Tracy McGrady his last season or with with Houston. Still better than 90% of the league, but not Orlando Tracy. Baylor was still better than damn near everyone else, but this wasn't 1962 Baylor.

West was still at the end of his peak as was Wilt.

La Frescobaldi

09-03-2013, 09:34 PM

Almost? There are no seasons in NBA history that team wouldn't contend. :pimp:

Some of the most thrilling times in all of NBA ever was when the Celtics got royally roasted by that team. The Finals was almost a let-down after that.
Hal Greer single-handedly destroyed Celtics offensive sets over, and over, and over & Wali Jones with that kick start jumper.... Chet the Jet came into his full greatness later but he was drive on you all day and night - just unstoppable. Yeah that's a top 2 or 3 all time team. Injuries in '68 tore holes in everybody's heart. That playoffs was awful to behold what happened to player after player.

La Frescobaldi

09-03-2013, 09:41 PM

Deuce Bigalow

09-03-2013, 10:05 PM

West was not the best player in the league in either year. Chamberlain was clearly LA's best player in 68-69 (West missed his usual 20 games that year.)And he certainly wasn't when Chamberlain was healthy at the beginning of that 69-70 season (it was WILT who was leading the league in scoring at that time.)

And glad you mentioned Baylor...he who shot .385 in the '69 playoffs, and in the last five games of the '69 Finals, he had four games of 4-18, 2-14, 4-13, and a clinching game seven performance of 8-22 from the floor.

Of course, as I pointed out, even with West playing brilliantly, he and Wilt's other teammates, collectively shot .421 from the field in that post-season (Wilt was at .545.) And in that game seven, while Chamberlain shot .875 from the floor, his teammates collectively shot .360. But, yes, blame Wilt.

And, don't forget in game seven of the '70 Finals...West was just destroyed by Frazier.
:facepalm

Wilt didnt finish top 5 in MVP voting in either year, while West was 2nd in 70 and was the scoring champ. West also won FMVP in 69. Wilt won no award nor was he top 5 in MVP voting. West finished way ahead in MVP voting while they played on the same team lol

Deuce Bigalow

09-03-2013, 10:10 PM

No.
John Havlicek was the best player in the league in 69 even though Wes Unseld took the MVP honors. Willis Reed was the best in '70 & he has the MVP to show.

Not taking anything away from the Logo but in any year after 1980 and most probably in the '70s too, Havlicek would have been FMVP. He carried the Celtics on his back to that ring in '69 for many games in regular season and playoffs, and the Celtics knew it, the Lakers knew it, everybody knew it.
Post the '69 playoff and finals stats between the two please. West won the FMVP while his team lost. Havlicek wasnt even good enough to win the award when his team won.

LAZERUSS

09-03-2013, 10:15 PM

:facepalm

Wilt didnt finish top 5 in MVP voting in either year, while West was 2nd in 70 and was the scoring champ. West also won FMVP in 69. Wilt won no award nor was he top 5 in MVP voting. West finished way ahead in MVP voting while they played on the same team lol

Slightly off topic, but since it is your mission to demean everything Wilt...what were Kobe's and Shaq's excuses for getting blown out in the '04 Finals by a team with no superstars?

BTW, I think we both KNOW the answer to that one. Hard to believe players like West and Kobe could shoot so awfully in a Finals...

Deuce Bigalow

09-03-2013, 10:21 PM

Slightly off topic, but since it is your mission to demean everything Wilt...what were Kobe's and Shaq's excuses for getting blown out in the '04 Finals by a team with no superstars?

BTW, I think we both KNOW the answer to that one. Hard to believe players like West and Kobe could shoot so awfully in a Finals...
How many rings did they win together? What were their Finals record?
Wilt has a career TS% of 52 in the Playoffs and Finals. And even while getting 3 chances to make 2 freethrows he shot a career 46.5 FT% in the Playoffs and 37.5 FT% in his Finals career...

CavaliersFTW

09-03-2013, 10:26 PM

How many rings did they win together? What were their Finals record?
Wilt has a career TS% of 52 in the Playoffs and Finals. And even while getting 3 chances to make 2 freethrows he shot a career 46.5 FT% in the Playoffs and 37.5 FT% in his Finals career...
Answer his question deuce. Why did Shaq and Kobe choke so bad if they were both in the middle of their prime. They choked against a superstar-less Pistons team of all teams anchored by a 6-7 center :oldlol: right? :confusedshrug:

LAZERUSS

09-03-2013, 10:27 PM

How many rings did they win together? What were their Finals record?
Wilt has a career TS% of 52 in the Playoffs and Finals. And even while getting 3 chances to make 2 freethrows he shot a career 46.5 FT% in the Playoffs and 37.5 FT% in his Finals career...

LOL!

Using TS% without CONTEXT.

I won't bother looking up Wilt's playoff TS%, because I already know he was light years ahead of the NBA norms...

but siince I already did the research myself... (BTW...I am using a TRUE TS%...which actually hurts Wilt)...

Chamberlain's TS% in his SIX Finals... .513
The league norm in those SIX Finals... .478
Wilt's opposing HOF centers (everyone of them)... .442

Hmmm...once again...complete domination.

Nor does that take into account that Chamberlain was KILLING them on the glass by a margin of 24.5 to 16.9 rpg, either.

All from a Wilt who played in five of his six Finals beyond his "scoring" prime (and in the one he did play in, he wiped out Russell...outscoring him by a 29.2 ppg to 11.2 ppg margin, and outshooting him by a .517 to .386 margin.)

LAZERUSS

09-03-2013, 10:30 PM

How many rings did they win together? What were their Finals record?
Wilt has a career TS% of 52 in the Playoffs and Finals. And even while getting 3 chances to make 2 freethrows he shot a career 46.5 FT% in the Playoffs and 37.5 FT% in his Finals career...

You are always quick to point out Wilt's FT shooting (which BTW, Shaq was only marginally better at)...

but please...post Kobe's combined FG% in his seven Finals.

Oh...please post the post-season league average FG% while you're at it, too.

La Frescobaldi

09-03-2013, 10:48 PM

Post the '69 playoff and finals stats between the two please. West won the FMVP while his team lost. Havlicek wasnt even good enough to win the award when his team won.
No good talking about stats as far as 60s Celtics. Go look at film. There's some out there. But you have to place Hondo in perspective when you do. Havlicek's scoring is immaterial to what he did on the court. The entire Celtics philosophy was based on balanced attack - no single player has overwhelming numbers in any of those ring seasons back then. They were balanced.
Look at the '69 Celtics scoring:
1 Sam Jones 22.5
2 Bailey Howell 21.9
3 John Havlicek 20.1
4 Don Nelson 19.3
5 Larry Siegfried 15.8
6 Rich Johnson 15.2
7 Tom Sanders 15.1
8 Jim Barnes 15.1
9 Don Chaney 13.8
10 Mal Graham 12.9
11 Em Bryant 11.9
12 Bud Olsen 11.7
13 Bill Russell 8.3

Pure balanced offense...... the most unstoppable teams you ever saw, because you couldn't just key on one or two guys defensively. You'd get smoked if you did. Bailey Howell could score, now.... he just didn't. Larry Siegfried too, he could just light it up - but they all stayed within the strategy at all times which was, always stay balanced. A total nightmare for all other coaches.

But Hondo - his D, his transition game... whole package. He was overwhelming. He took over games and you didn't even know it unless you knew what to look for. He'd switch 3 or 4 times in a single defensive set and so smooth you thought he was lined up on each guy from the beginning of the play. He would completely destroy transition games because he would just become a 1 man full court press. Havlicek at midcourt on defense in a fast game was a thing to be feared.
Of course I'm talking within the rules and so forth of that time frame. Jordan warped the entire mindset of the league since then.

Deuce Bigalow

09-03-2013, 11:02 PM

Answer his question deuce. Why did Shaq and Kobe choke so bad if they were both in the middle of their prime. They choked against a superstar-less Pistons team of all teams anchored by a 6-7 center :oldlol: right? :confusedshrug:
Kobe failed big time, I'm not going to deny reality like jlauber does about Wilt's failures. But like Shaq said, "we won 3 out of 4".

La Frescobaldi

09-03-2013, 11:04 PM

Kobe failed big time, I'm not going to deny reality like jlauber does about Wilt's failures. But like Shaq said, "we won 3 out of 4".
Kobe was dealing with enormous pressure that year. I think Shaq carries equal amounts of 'blame' for not handling that whole scene very well. I'm not even sure there was a way for the Lakers to keep from blowing up

LAZERUSS

09-03-2013, 11:06 PM

Kobe failed big time, I'm not going to deny reality like jlauber does about Wilt's failures. But like Shaq said, "we won 3 out of 4".

Of course, as you like to point out...FT shooting can be the difference. Kobe shot 23-25 from the line in that series. Where would his Lakers have been without that?

THAT just shows you that great FT shooting is more important than great FG shooting...

LAZERUSS

09-03-2013, 11:18 PM

BTW Duece...since this topic was directed at you...

How about your comments on these...

Playoff FG%'s...

'60 Arizin .431 Gola .412
'61 Arizin .325 Gola .206
'62 Arizin .375 Gola .271
'63 Gola...played 21 games and was shipped out
'64 Thurmond .438
'65 Thurmond (?)...half the season. Greer .455 Walker .480
'66 Greer .352 Cunningham .161 Walker .375
'67 Greer .429 Walker .467 Cunningham .376
'68 Greer .432 Walker .410 Cunningham broke wrist in first round (played 3 games)
'69 West .469 Baylor .385
'70 West .469 Baylor .466
'71 West and Baylor...both injured and do not play in playoffs. Goodrich .425
'72 Baylor retires after 9 nine games. West .376. Goodrich .445
'73 West .449 Goodrch .448

'62 Meschery was NOT an all-star. Shoots .397 in playoffs.
'63 Meschery (* All Star. Played 64 games. 16 ppg .425 FG% during season.)
'63 Rodgers (shoots .387 in regular season.
'64 Rodgers .329 in post-season.
'65 Jackson .338 in playoffs.

And this...

'60 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .380 from the field. Lose game six of EDF's.

'61 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .332 from the field. Lose in 1st round.

'62 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .354 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'64 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .383 from the field. Lose in game five of Finals.

'65 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .413 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'66 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .352 from the field. Lose in game five of EDF's.

'67 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .428 from the field. Wins Title

'68 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .416 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'69 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .421 from the field. Lose gaeme seven of Finals.

'70 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .469 from the field. Lose game seven of Finals.

'71 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .446 from the field. Lose game five of WCF's.

'72 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .414 from the field. Wins Title.

'73 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .446 from the field. Lose game five of Finals.

Maybe you can find similar "help" for Kareem, Shaq, and Hakeem...

LAZERUSS

09-03-2013, 11:53 PM

BTW, has there ever been a more incompetent coach in an NBA Finals than Butch "The Butcher" Van Breda Kolf...

why didn't the Lakers win the title in '69?

"When we pass the ball into Wilt, sure he will score. But it is an ugle offense to watch."

So, instead, he let Baylor shot-jack the Lakers right down the drain...and with Chamberlain sitting on the bench in the last five minutes of a game seven, two point loss.

Not only did his stupidity cost LA their first ever title...it basically cost him his career.

At least Chamberlain was finally able to lead the Lakers to their first-ever title in Los Angeles a couple of years later...

Just another example of what Wilt had to deal with in his career...

Pointguard

09-03-2013, 11:57 PM

No good talking about stats as far as 60s Celtics. Go look at film. There's some out there. But you have to place Hondo in perspective when you do. Havlicek's scoring is immaterial to what he did on the court. The entire Celtics philosophy was based on balanced attack - no single player has overwhelming numbers in any of those ring seasons back then. They were balanced.
Look at the '69 Celtics scoring:
1 Sam Jones 22.5
2 Bailey Howell 21.9
3 John Havlicek 20.1
4 Don Nelson 19.3
5 Larry Siegfried 15.8
6 Rich Johnson 15.2
7 Tom Sanders 15.1
8 Jim Barnes 15.1
9 Don Chaney 13.8
10 Mal Graham 12.9
11 Em Bryant 11.9
12 Bud Olsen 11.7
13 Bill Russell 8.3

Pure balanced offense...... the most unstoppable teams you ever saw, because you couldn't just key on one or two guys defensively. You'd get smoked if you did. Bailey Howell could score, now.... he just didn't. Larry Siegfried too, he could just light it up - but they all stayed within the strategy at all times which was, always stay balanced. A total nightmare for all other coaches.

But Hondo - his D, his transition game... whole package. He was overwhelming. He took over games and you didn't even know it unless you knew what to look for. He'd switch 3 or 4 times in a single defensive set and so smooth you thought he was lined up on each guy from the beginning of the play. He would completely destroy transition games because he would just become a 1 man full court press. Havlicek at midcourt on defense in a fast game was a thing to be feared.
Of course I'm talking within the rules and so forth of that time frame. Jordan warped the entire mindset of the league since then.

Yeah, if you go back and look at some of those games Hondo's looks like he has a different fuel tank, he guarded people like you would sometimes see Mugsy Bogues did. He just kept coming at the offense. He was really unique in that sense. I recall reading that he had an enlarged heart or oversized lungs - forgot which but he was really different.

Deuce Bigalow

09-03-2013, 11:59 PM

BTW Duece...since this topic was directed at you...

How about your comments on these...

And this...

Maybe you can find similar "help" for Kareem, Shaq, and Hakeem...
You already know my opinion of his 69 and 70 teammates. As far as the earlier years, the FG% of his teammates were relatively close to the league average is it not? Even if his teammates were really horrible early on, they were not by '67.

Deuce Bigalow

09-04-2013, 12:02 AM

LAZERUSS

09-04-2013, 12:11 AM

You already know my opinion of his 69 and 70 teammates. As far as the earlier years, the FG% of his teammates were relatively close to the league average is it not? Even if his teammates were really horrible early on, they were not by '67.

In '61, the post-season league FG% was .403...Wilt's teammates... .332.

In '62, the post-season league FG% was .411. Wilt's teammates... .354.

In '66, Chamberlain's Sixers went 55-25, and had the best record in the league. In the post-season, while Chamberlain shot .509 from the field (and against Russell), the post-seaosn league FG% was .440. Wilt's teammates...
.352. yep....352 in a post-season NBA that shot .440.

Your opinion of the '69 Lakers. They collectively shot .421 in the post-season (and .360 in game seven of the Finals). The post-season NBA... .431.

Look...year-after-year Chamberlain's teammates under-performed. Hell, even in their title year of 71-72...his teammates collectively shot .414, in a post-season NBA that shot .446. And yet, because of Wilt's efficiency, rebounding, and stifling defense, that team went 12-3 and won the title. Just amazing.

And he was playing out of his mind in nearly every post-season series, as well. I have pointed out that he just blew away the NBA post-season TS% in his '65 playoff run, when he carried a 40-40 team past the loaded 48-32 Royals in the first round, and then lost a game seven, by one point, to the 62-18 Celtics...with a 30 ppg 31 rpg, .555 FG% (and .560 TS%) series.

Yet, the "Wilt-bashers" just look at his 2 rings. And, while they are ripping Chamberlain, they are praising Hakeem, who couldn't get past the first round in over half of his post-seasons. Or Bird, who played with HOF-laden rosters, and only won three rings...all while choking miserably in several of his playoff series. Or a Kareem, who won ONE ring in the decade of the 80's, and in fact, played on several 59+ win teams that just flat out puked in the playoffs. If it hadn't been for Magic saving his a$$, he would have been labeled as the greatest "loser" in NBA history.

LAZERUSS

09-04-2013, 12:16 AM

Lakers were down by double digits (or close to it) in the 4th quarter before Wilt went out. And when he was out the Lakers did go on a run, and almost came back to win.

FLAT OUT LIE...

The Lakers were down by 17 points with 10 minutes left in the game. When Chamberlain pulled himself out of the game, the lead had been cut to SEVEN, with more than five minutes left. The Lakers had chopped off ten points in about four minutes...and Boston was on fumes. And Wilt's replacement, me Counts, who would shoot 4-13 from the field, missed a key shot, and had a key turnover late.

Only a complete idiot would have left Chamberlain on the bench in the last five minutes of a game seven...and unfortunately for Laker fans...that is EXACTLY what they had running the show.

West was FURIOUS when he found out about it after the game...and shortly thereafter Van Breda Kolf resigned, before surely being fired. His coaching career went completely downhill after that.

Deuce Bigalow

09-04-2013, 12:28 AM

In '61, the post-season league FG% was .403...Wilt's teammates... .332.

In '62, the post-season league FG% was .411. Wilt's teammates... .354.

In '66, Chamberlain's Sixers went 55-25, and had the best record in the league. In the post-season, while Chamberlain shot .509 from the field (and against Russell), the post-seaosn league FG% was .440. Wilt's teammates...
.352. yep....352 in a post-season NBA that shot .440.

Your opinion of the '69 Lakers. They collectively shot .421 in the post-season (and .360 in game seven of the Finals). The post-season NBA... .431.

Look...year-after-year Chamberlain's teammates under-performed. Hell, even in their title year of 71-72...his teammates collectively shot .414, in a post-season NBA that shot .446. And yet, because of Wilt's efficiency, rebounding, and stifling defense, that team went 12-3 and won the title. Just amazing.

And he was playing out of his mind in nearly every post-season series, as well. I have pointed out that he just blew away the NBA post-season TS% in his '65 playoff run, when he carried a 40-40 team past the loaded 48-32 Royals in the first round, and then lost a game seven, by one point, to the 62-18 Celtics...with a 30 ppg 31 rpg, .555 FG% (and .560 TS%) series.

Yet, the "Wilt-bashers" just look at his 2 rings. And, while they are ripping Chamberlain, they are praising Hakeem, who couldn't get past the first round in over half of his post-seasons. Or Bird, who played with HOF-laden rosters, and only won three rings...all while choking miserably in several of his playoff series. Or a Kareem, who won ONE ring in the decade of the 80's, and in fact, played on several 59+ win teams that just flat out puked in the playoffs. If it hadn't been for Magic saving his a$$, he would have been labeled as the greatest "loser" in NBA history.
Still doesn't excuse 69-70. Lets ignore 60-68, and 71-73.

CavaliersFTW

09-04-2013, 12:46 AM

Still doesn't excuse 69-70. Lets ignore 60-68, and 71-73.
So players are defined by failed opportunities, is that how it works? If so, both Kobe and Shaq each failed to win a title for an equal number or more seasons of their active careers than Wilt did. Ouch.

Deuce Bigalow

09-04-2013, 12:54 AM

So players are defined by failed opportunities, is that how it works? If so, both Kobe and Shaq each failed to win a title for an equal number or more seasons of their active careers than Wilt did. Ouch.
Huh?

Shaq and Kobe were 3/4

West and Wilt were 1/4

CavaliersFTW

09-04-2013, 01:03 AM

Huh?

Shaq and Kobe were 3/4

West and Wilt were 1/4
Making it to the Finals >>> Not making it to the Finals at all

And what I said was, the number of seasons Kobe or Shaq has FAILED to win a title, is equal to or greater than the number of seasons Wilt failed to win a title. Kobe is actually about to pass Wilt up in number of active seasons he failed to win a ring too. Shameful.

Deuce Bigalow

09-04-2013, 01:08 AM

Making it to the Finals >>> Not making it to the Finals at all

And what I said was, the number of seasons Kobe or Shaq has FAILED to win a title, is equal to or greater than the number of seasons Wilt failed to win a title. Kobe is actually about to pass Wilt up in number of active seasons he failed to win a ring too. Shameful.
:facepalm

Electric Slide

09-04-2013, 01:10 AM

Wilt only won when he was a glorified role player.

He is overrated.

millwad

09-04-2013, 04:16 AM

Maybe you can find similar "help" for Kareem, Shaq, and Hakeem...

Hakeem won in '94 while having Maxwell as his 2nd best scoring teammate, Maxwell averaged 13.8 points on 36 FG%.

Wilt won while being the tied 2nd best scoring player in the '67 playoffs and the fourth in '72 playoffs. You clown.

millwad

09-04-2013, 04:27 AM

Interesting...

Here was my post exactly above this one...

Of course, Chamberlain's teammates actually playing well was not the norm.

And, while you are at it...

Chamberlain was the '67 76ers LEADING scorer, leading rebounder, leading assist man, leading FG% shooter, leading TS% shooter, leading Defensive Win Share player, leading Offensive Win Share player, leading Win Share player, and high PER man.

Of course he was the leading scorer in the regular season, we're talking about Wilt after all. And as always he dropped in the playoffs and became the tied 2nd highest scorer and in the finals he had 4 teammates who scored more points than him per game. Classic Wilt..

And you act like he couldn't score in the playoffs. He had the HIGH game in that Sixer post-season, of 41 points. In the clinching game five rout of Boston, he put up 29 points, 22 of which came in the first half when the game was still close. And he had a game of 26 points against Thurmond in the Finals, as well as a clinhing game of 23 points (in which he wiped the floor with Thurmond) while his "leading scorer" teammate Greer scored 15 points on 5-16 shooting.

That's one game, he only averaged 21.7 points in the '67 playoffs and why are you cherry picking 1 single game? Such a clown.

I am talking about his finals performance and overall playoff scoring performance and you want to cherry pick 1 game. And as usual you need feel the need to belittle Wilt's teammates and in this case Greer, which is laughable since he was the one who took over the scoring when Wilt folded as usual.

Oh, and just the season before, he hung a 46 point game on Russell in the clinching loss in the EDF's. And earlier in that same season, he pasted Thurmond with a 45 point game (outscoring Nate by a 45-13 margin.)

Again you're cherry picking single games, you moron.

Rick Barry, who led the NBA in scoring that year, at 35.6 ppg, said it best...Chamberlain "let him win" because he simply wasn't interested in winning yet another scoring title. EVERYONE in the league KNEW that if Chamberlain wanted to score...he would. Oh, and as always, he had the high scoring game of that '67 season, of 58 points (on 26-34 shooting), just as he did EVERY season in the decade of the 60's. And, the next year he had games of 52, 53, 53, and 68 points...despite "only" averaging 24.3 ppg in the season.

A single scoring game doesn't mean shit, and all these 50 and 60 points game by Wilt, yet Wilt never had a 60 point scoring game in the playoffs. Big surprise.

He was even leading the league in scoring as late as the 69-70 season, at 32.2 ppg (on an always efficient .579 FG%)...when he blew out his knee.

So, please, no more nonsense about Wilt's "scoring" in the post-season.

No more "nonsense" because you just cherry picked a couple of games? Such a stupid clown. Wilt the statpadder couldn't do what he did in the regular season. Both his FG% and scoring went down.

LAZERUSS

09-04-2013, 07:37 AM

Hakeem's numbers are inflated because his team's were eliminated so often in the first round and against inferior defensive centers.

Wilt's numbers drop because he led his teams deeper into the playoffs,a nd up against Russell EIGHT times.

Think about this...

If Chamberlain had had the "luxury" of losing in the first round as often Hakeem did, or without running into the greatest defensive center so often, his playoffs would have stoped with seasons of 38.7, 37.0, 37.0, 38.6 etc. Alos his FG%'s would have been considerably higher.

So, let's quickly dismiss with the Hakeem-Wilt comparisons.

As for Hakeem's "help"...in his '94 run, his TEAM did not face any more talent than what he had. Ewing had no more talent on his squad than what Hakeem had on his. His second leading scorer in that Finals averaged 17.7 ppg on a .368 FG%.

And, how about his '95 Finals, when Hakeem's TS% was WAY less than not only his own TEAMMATES, but was blown out of the water by Shaq's. Hakeem shot considerably less than the post-season FG%, eFG%, and TS%, while his teammates were well above in all of them. And meanwhile Shaq's were below in TS%, and Shaq was light years above it in TS%.

Had Shaq shot-jacked 29 times per game, like Hakeem did, instead of the 19 that he actually took, he would have averaged 40 mppg in that Finals.

Hakeem's first title came in a playoffs without MJ (and the 55-27 Bulls SURELY would have repeated with MJ). And his teamates overwhelmed Shaq's in the '95 Finals, or else he would have then beeon ringless in his career.

Hakeem...the most over-rated player on ISH.

millwad

09-04-2013, 07:58 AM

Hakeem's numbers are inflated because his team's were eliminated so often in the first round and against inferior defensive centers.

Wilt's numbers drop because he led his teams deeper into the playoffs,a nd up against Russell EIGHT times.

Bogus, nothing but pure lies. First of all, Wilt never faced anywhere close the amount of defensive schemes, double and triple teams and Olajuwon bot scored more in the playoffs and he did in on better FG%.

Wilt in total played 15 more playoff games and even if you compare their final scoring average Hakeem is far superior. Hakeem lead all of his 3 rosters in terms of scoring when he played in the finals.

Think about this...

If Chamberlain had had the "luxury" of losing in the first round as often Hakeem did, or without running into the greatest defensive center so often, his playoffs would have stoped with seasons of 38.7, 37.0, 37.0, 38.6 etc. Alos his FG%'s would have been considerably higher.

Oh, shut the **** up.
This is the biggest BS rant ever. Wilt's main competition was undersized Russell without any scoring skills. Thurmond was just as bad in terms of scoring and Wilt barely faced any double and triple teams, you clown. You have yet not posted any video proof of these so called swarming defensive teams that Wilt supposedly faced. Wilt's FG% would be lower in modern era, he would have been doubled and tripled way more often and defensive schemes would be an other object to face as well.

So, let's quickly dismiss with the Hakeem-Wilt comparisons.

I just did it for you, Wilt statpadded in the regular season while Olajuwon beasted in the finals.

As for Hakeem's "help"...in his '94 run, his TEAM did not face any more talent than what he had. Ewing had no more talent on his squad than what Hakeem had on his. His second leading scorer in that Finals averaged 17.7 ppg on a .368 FG%.

Haha, this is so stupid.
So you whine about Starks FG% in the finals, what should Hakeem say then? Hakeem's second leading scorer was Maxwell who averaged 13.4 points on .365 FG% in the finals. You're so god damn stupid.

And Ewing also had Harper who absued the Rockets big time in the finals and Harper averaged 16.4 points on 46% shooting.

And is that wouldn't be enough, lets compare Olajuwon and Ewing in that series;

Olajuwon: 26.9 points (50% shooting), 9.1 rebounds, 3.6 assists, 1.6 steals and 3.9 blocks

Ewing: 18.9 points (36% shooting), 12.4 rebounds, 1.7 assists 1.3 steals and 4.3 blocks.

Ewing was outplayed big time.

And, how about his '95 Finals, when Hakeem's TS% was WAY less than not only his own TEAMMATES, but was blown out of the water by Shaq's. Hakeem shot considerably less than the post-season FG%, eFG%, and TS%, while his teammates were well above in all of them. And meanwhile Shaq's were below in TS%, and Shaq was light years above it in TS%.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]
Had Shaq shot-jacked 29 times per game, like Hakeem did, instead of the 19 that he actually took, he would have averaged 40 mppg in that Finals.

Haha, you clown.
I've destroyed you so many times regarding this and still you try to challenge me on this. Shaq struggled big time in the '95 finals with fouls and turnovers, Shaq averaged more than 5 turnovers per game and he holds the center record for most turnovers per game in a 4 games series. He got clearly outplayed in 2 of the games and one was a tie at best. Hakeem outplayed Shaq with no doubt.

Hakeem's first title came in a playoffs without MJ (and the 55-27 Bulls SURELY would have repeated with MJ). And his teamates overwhelmed Shaq's in the '95 Finals, or else he would have then beeon ringless in his career.

Hakeem...the most over-rated player on ISH.

Oh, so Hakeem who had a winning record against MJ would "surely" get beaten. And Olajuwon who outplayed Shaq in '95 would suddenly be ringless somehow..

Wilt was the one who dropped big time in the finals and in the playoffs, Wilt is the same guy who never lead a champion team in scoring in the playoffs. All this bogus about his massive scoring games and yet the fool was beaten by Russell year after year 'til he gave up the scoring to others. Hakeem, Shaq and Kareem showed up in the playoffs, Wilt shrunk..

Owl

09-04-2013, 02:00 PM

I was tempted not to come in because this is becoming one of "these" threads but

He was still a very good player until his last game of the '70 Finals. After that he played a total of 11 games.

Having said that, his role in the '70 Finals...as a "third wheel" was about what he should have been in the '69 Finals...instead of shot-jacking his team right out of the Finals.

BTW, he really didn't "retire." He was forced to quit by Sharman. And who could argue with that? The Lakers replaced Baylor with Jim McMillian, and then immeditely ran off 33 straight wins, and an eventual title.
Regarding the bolded, are you sure? What's your source? As far as I'm aware they talked and the possibility of Elgin not starting was broached, but I haven't heard that angle on it before.

pudman13

09-04-2013, 02:32 PM

Yeah, if you go back and look at some of those games Hondo's looks like he has a different fuel tank, he guarded people like you would sometimes see Mugsy Bogues did. He just kept coming at the offense. He was really unique in that sense. I recall reading that he had an enlarged heart or oversized lungs - forgot which but he was really different.

There's a video out on youtube with Satch Sanders and Sam Jones watching a Celtics playoff game and commenting on it. When they see Havlicek they laugh about how he could "run all day." He was just an amazing athlete. If you watch clips of him at any point in his career, including in the mid-70s when he was old by NBA standards, he was one of the best ever at moving without the ball and finding an open spot on the court. You won't be able to count how many 10-foot jumpers he makes. He always outran his opponents.

julizaver

09-04-2013, 03:48 PM

I think some ISH posters need medical HOF "Help" ...

I see that due to some perverse personal feelings some posters try to attack others whatever the topic and mater is, try to throw personal insults at every possible way.

millwad

09-04-2013, 07:11 PM

LAZERUSS

09-04-2013, 09:32 PM

I was tempted not to come in because this is becoming one of "these" threads but

Regarding the bolded, are you sure? What's your source? As far as I'm aware they talked and the possibility of Elgin not starting was broached, but I haven't heard that angle on it before.

Charley Rosen, "That Pivotal Season:" (Page 43)

The truth was that Baylor could no longer run, shoot, rebound, or guard, and was increasingly reluctant to pass. As Sharman mercilessly pushed his team to run faster, and play harder and smarter, he was hopeful that the situation would eventually resolve itself. Perhaps Baylor would answer the bell once the regular season was under way.

(Page 98)

Much to Sharman's delight, both Schaus and Cooke had agreed that Baylor was dead weight. With Schaus present to represent the owner, Baylor was given an ultimatum: Split or sit.

Baylor resisted. Give him another few weeks to get into tip-top shape, and he'd be as good as he had been in his prime. If he no longer had a thousand unstoppable moves, five hundred were good enough.

Sharman insisted. Speed was the new dispenation, and like it or not, Bayor was being excommunicated.

To sweeten the bad news, and to prove that the organization appreciated his fourteen seasons of daring deeds, Schaus was enpowered to offer Baylor a cushy high-paying job.

Baylor waivered. Sharman was resolute.

Two days later Baylor retired.

And the rest, as they say, was history. Sharman inserted Jim McMillian into the starting lineup, and the 6-3 Lakers would not lose again until game number 43.

Baylor was essentially done after the '70 Finals. He only played a total of 11 more games in the new two years. And, the reality was, aside from coach Van Breda Kolf, Baylor was the main reason that the Lakers lost in the '69 Finals. He couldn't hit the ocean from a lifeboat in that series,... but he kept shot-jacking anyway.

millwad

09-04-2013, 09:45 PM

Still waiting for Jlauber to prove with actual footage that Wilt was the most double and tripled player of all-time.

LAZERUSS

09-04-2013, 09:53 PM

millwad

09-04-2013, 10:12 PM

Hakeem's two title runs were absolutely over-rated.

In his 93-94 title run...quick, give me a list of the true centers he faced before the Finals:

First Round against Portland. Hmmm. 6-8 PF Buck Williams, dud Chris Dudley, and for some well deseved rest, Mark Bryant with a few minutes. Not even a DECENT center in the goup.

You don't even understand basketball, the defense Hakeem faced during those back-to-backs were way tougher than Wilt facing undersized Russell time after time without any defensive schemes or double and triple teams.

Round Two against Phoenix. It gets worse. How about this three-headed monster? Tub of lard -9 Oliver Miller, 6-9 AC Green (a PF), and the legendary Joe "I have a 2 inch vertical" Kleine.

See above.

WCF's against Utah. Wow! Mr. career 5-5 man, himself, Felton Spencer logged the bulk of the minutes.

See above.

Has a truly great center ever feasted on such a collection of clowns, as what Hakeem had in that run to the Finals.

Haha, he faced 3 top 10 centers during his back to backs. So out of 8 series he faced 3 top 10 centers in 3 of those series.

And yes, he outplayed Ewing (but not even close to the punishment that Shaq routinely pounded Patric with.)

What are you even talking about, Hakeem totally destroyed Ewing, Ewing couldn't even make a shot during that series. He made like 35% of his FGA..

Furthermore, those that are quick to point out that Hakeem didn't have much of a supporting cast...Ewing had no more talent, nor did they outplay Hakeem's teammates, either.

I've already destroyed you on this one, Derek Harper totally destroyed the Rocket guards during that series but you tend to not care about mentioning him because it doesn't fit your agenda. You are quick to point out Starks FG% but Olajuwon's second best player, Maxwell, both scored less points and on worse FG%. And Olajuwon had no Harper who averaged 16+ points on 46% shooting.

Ewing also had Oakley who averaged 11 points and 11 rebounds per game in the finals.

And last but not least, you whine about Starks FG%, yet you haven't realized that Starks shot with a higher FG% than Ewing himself.. You're such a stupid clown.. :facepalm

And regarding terms of talent, when the hell did Wilt win a title with a team that was less talented than his the opposite one? NEVER.

But, aside from that laughable run to a title...we all KNOW how that season would have played out had the real best player in the league played that year. The Bulls basicaly replaced MJ with Toni Kukoc and Pete Myers, and went 55-27. Then, they lost a close seven game series against the 56-26 Knicks...who would barely lose a game seven against Hakeem's 58-24 Rockets.

What a bogus excuse. Basketball is about match-ups and Ewing was by no means on Olajuwon's level in '94 and Olajuwon is the only superstar who had a winning record against MJ in his prime.

And MJ was back in '94 and his team lost against the Magic, the same Magic that got swept by the Rockets. You're getting destroyed in every single post now.

Hakeem's first ring was really a gift.

You wrote this in the last page and I totally destroyed your terrible argument. Feel free to waste more time on lies that I will destroy.

LAZERUSS

09-04-2013, 10:18 PM

Continuing...

Hakeem did dominate Robinson in the '95 WDF's. No player has ever been so elevated by one single series, than what Hakeem was in that series. What is ineresting, though, is that over the course of their 42 other career H2H's, it was basically a statistical wash, with Hakeem slightly outscoring D-Rob, and Robinson easily outshooting Hakeem. Oh, and D-Rob's teams went 30-12 against Hakeem's.

That brings us to the '95 Finals, where Hakeem's play has been the most exaggerated performance in Finals history.

Here was the REAL breakdown of that series (and thanks to Colts18 for this OBVIOUS analysis):

I decided to rewatch the 1995 finals and chart each possession to see to how effective Shaq and Hakeem were on the court. A special shout out to Jordanbulls for providing the video of this series

Total:
Hakeem: 253 touches, 140 doubles (55.3%)
Shaq: 221 touches, 146 doubles (66.1%)

Here are their stats when they were guarded by each other:
Shaq 32-57 (56.1 FG%), 6-8 FT, 67.3 double teamed%, .578 TS%, 17 assists, 1 O-reb allowed to Hakeem
Hakeem: 31-75 (41.3 FG%), 9-13 FT, 60.2 double teamed%, .446 TS%, 8 assists, 3 O-reb allowed to Shaq

Shaq blocked 2 Hakeem shots, Hakeem blocked 0 Shaq shots. Hakeem did make a 3P on Shaq. Hakeem guarded Shaq on 73.3% of the touches he had, while Shaq guarded Hakeem on 69.6% of his touches. Hakeem got a lot more fastbreak touches than Shaq so in the halfcourt, they guarded each other about even.
When they weren't being guarded by each other, Shaq was being guarded by Charles Jones and Hakeem by Horace Grant.

Shaq vs Jones: 7-11 FG (63.6 FG%), 35 doubles in 52 touches (67.3%), 2 assists
Hakeem vs Grant: 13-24 (54.2 FG%), 33 double teams in 58 touches (56.9%), 6 assists

Jump shots:
Hakeem: 27-62 (43.5%)
Shaq: 2-7 (28.6%)

The vast majority of Shaq's shots were close range hooks.

Dunks:
Hakeem: 1 dunk (vs grant)
Shaq: 9 dunks (2 of them were in Hakeem's face)

Fouls drawn on offense:
Shaq: 37 (17 on Hakeem)
Hakeem: 21 (9 on Shaq)

Hakeem did draw 4 Shaq charges.

Shaq was called for 5 travels, Hakeem 2.

Plus/Minus (Houston outscored Orlando by 28 points total):
On court:
Shaq: -12 in 180 minutes
Hakeem: +17 in 179 minutes

Off court:
Shaq: -16 in 16:37 of action (Houston scored 133 points per 48 in the minutes Shaq missed)
Hakeem: +11 in 17:11 of action (134 points per 48 in the minutes he was off the court)

Interestingly enough, in 2 of the games, the Magic outscored the Rockets when Shaq was on the court. The magic were -8 in about 9 minutes of action without Shaq in game (lost by just 2 points). In game 3, they were -4 in the minutes Shaq missed in a game where they lost by 3 points. In game 1, the Rockets outscored the magic by 9 in the minutes Hakeem missed, but they were outscored by a combined 4 points in games 3 and 4 without Hakeem.

Observations:
-Orlando was for some reason really committed to doubling Hakeem in game 1. They were throwing a lot of hard doubles. Hakeem had 5 assists in that game, all of them 3 pointers, 4 came off of doubles (one was a triple team). I'm guessing it was a response to Hakeem's series vs Robinson. For the rest of the series, Orlando didn't double Hakeem as much and they threw softer doubles.

-Hakeem made like 5 or 6 baskets in transition to Shaq's 1 or so. So while Shaq didn't get credit for giving up those buckets since he didn't guard, a few of those times Shaq was slow in transition. Shaq got about 3 or shots

-One of the commentators compared Horry to Scottie Pippen and Walton took the comment seriously. They are vastly different players IMO

-I'm not sure why Penny wasn't more aggressive. Kenny Smith couldn't guard him at all. When Penny did drive to the basket, he made a few shots over Hakeem.

-Drexler was the man in this series. He really wanted to get his first title badly. For some reason, people rarely talk about him despite him getting more WS than Hakeem in that playoff run

-It's fashionable these days to **** on Hakeem's cast in 94, but this cast was much better than that one. The guards outplayed Orlando's guards. Horry played really well. The 3P shooters benefited a lot from the shortened 3P line.

-Contrary to popular belief, handchecking wasn't allowed in 95. The refs called like 2 handchecking fouls in this series

-I'm so thankful the NBA got rid of the illegal defense. The refs called like 5 of them in each game. It destroyed the flow of the game and limited the ways you could double team a player.

The BOLDED part is all anyone who actually WATCHED that series needs to know. While Shaq severely limited Hakeem, one-on-one, on the other end, Shaq just abused a helpless Hakeem.

Continued...

LAZERUSS

09-04-2013, 10:23 PM

Continuing...

And, here is anoher close observer's take...

http://ballislife.com/shaq-vs-hakeem/

[QUOTE]← Previous PostNext Post →Dream vs. Diesel: 90 mins of the 2 battling each other in 1995 NBA Finals + the pay per view event that never happened
David Astramskas June 15, 2013 4,221 views
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One of the most upsetting things I constantly hear from kids is that Hakeem dominated Shaq in the 1995 NBA Finals. I had a conversation with the current coach of the Ballup Streetball Team and teammate of Hakeem during their 2nd championship Tracy Murray yesterday and we talked in-depth about the series and how Hakeem may have been consistently great in that series but it was the role players for the Rockets that stepped up in every game and the role players for the Magic that disappeared and chocked that won the Rockets the championship.

For Houston, we had Kenny Smith hitting a 3 with 1.6 seconds left to put the game into OT after Nick Anderson missed 4 consecutive free throws. Dennis Scott was also MIA for the Orlando while Drexler was putting up big numbers and leading the team in assists. The Magic bench was non-existent and the Rockets had Sam Cassell scoring 30. Then we have Robert Horry, who was 2nd in Finals MVP voting, setting multiple NBA Finals records for 3′s and steals and sealed game 3 with a 3 pointer in the final 20 seconds of the game.

I had this same conversation with Robert Horry a couple of years ago and even though he said he would take Hakeem over Shaq (who he also won 3 rings with) he was in agreement that Hakeem and his impressive 33/12/6/2/2 average in the finals did not dominate Shaq and his almost as impressive 29/13/6/0/3 average that included a 26 point 16 rebound 9 assist game 1 and 33 point 12 rebound 7 assist game 2.

Another thing that both former Rockets were obviously in disagreement with me about is my statement that the Magic would have won the series if Nick Anderson wouldn

millwad

09-04-2013, 10:23 PM

millwad

09-04-2013, 10:25 PM

Continuing...

And, here is anoher close observer's take...

http://ballislife.com/shaq-vs-hakeem/

The bolded part is the most important. Hakeem's TEAMMATES just SHELLED Shaq's in that seies.

Here were the REAL facts of that series...

Hakeem's teammates just ANNIHILATED Shaq's. Shaq averaged 6.3 apg in that series, and if his brick-laying teammates could have hit anything remotely close to a normal percentage, it would have been considerably higher.

Hakeem's TEAMMATES outshot Shaq's TEAMMATES from the field by a .467 to .434 margin. And it was even worse from the arc... .402 to .347.

Then, think about this...

Take Shaq and Hakeem's FT's MADE out of the equation (and BTW, Shaq MADE more...(24-18)...and Hakeem's teammates outscored Shaq's by a 78-37 margin in that series...or 41 points.

Now, in game one, Hakeem's Rockets beat Shaq's Magic, 120-118. We all know that Nick Anderson missed four straight FTs in the last 10 secs, but to add to that, take away Shaq's and Hakeem's made FTs, and the Hakeem's teammates outscored Shaq's by a 13-7 margin from the line.

How about game two? First of all, I get a kick out of those that claim that Hakeem outplayed Shaq in the first half, and that Shaq's 23 second half points were meaningless. the FACT was, Hakeem was a beaten dog in the second half. He was physically beaten to a pulp. Furthermore, had Shaq not gotten into some questionable foul trouble in the first half, the game might have been mych different. In any case, the Rockets won by 11 points, and Hakeem's teammates outscored Shaq's from the line, by a 28-9 margin.

Game three. More of the same. Houston wins 106-103...and Hakeem's teammates outscore Shaq's from the line by a 18-13 margin. BTW, Hakeem outscored Shaq, 31-28, but he went 14-30 from the field, while Shaq went 11-17. Pretty much the way of the entire series. Hakeem scored 4.8 ppg more in the seties, but took over 10 more FGAs per game to do so.

Game four. More of the same. Hakeem's teammates outscore Shaq's from the line by an 18-8 margin...in a 12 point win. This is the ONLY game in the series in which Hakeem outplayed Shaq.

And, don't forget that this was a 22 year old Shaq, playing against a Hakeem in his his absolute prime. Oh, and BTW, the Hakeem fans will never mention that a 26 year old Shaq just obliterated a 36 year old Hakeem a couple of years later in yet just another first round exit for Hakeem.

And for those that use TS% (I use a TRUE TS% BTW)...how about these numbers:

Once again...a GIFT ring for Hakeem. Had Shaq's teammates even played Hakeem's close, haq would have won his first ring.

Yet another copy and past post by you and still no mention of the fact that Shaq was crazy turnover prone in this series and that he averaged most turnovers per game in a 4 game series in the finals in league history among centers.

Jameerthefear

09-04-2013, 10:26 PM

Kind of a random question, but millwad who do you consider the GOAT center?

millwad

09-04-2013, 10:27 PM

Kind of a random question, but millwad who do you consider the GOAT center?

Kareem, no doubt. :bowdown:

LAZERUSS

09-04-2013, 10:27 PM

LAZERUSS

09-04-2013, 10:31 PM

Still waiting for Jlauber to prove with actual footage that Wilt was the most double and tripled player of all-time.

Don't need jlauber for this...

The very FIRST footage I pulled up...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wEzEHPZi3w

On virtually EVERY possession, Chamberlain is doubled, tripled, and swarmed...

And this is just ONE QUARTER of ONE game out of the 1200 that Wilt played in...

LAZERUSS

09-04-2013, 10:33 PM

Yet another copy and past post by you and still no mention of the fact that Shaq was crazy turnover prone in this series and that he averaged most turnovers per game in a 4 game series in the finals in league history among centers.

Hakeem was a beaten dog in that series. His TEAMMATES just KILLED Shaq's. The numbers simply don't lie.

millwad

09-04-2013, 10:34 PM

BTW, for those that Hakeem-lovers who point out that Russell held an 11-2 edge in rings over Wilt...

84-85... Eaton > Hakeem.
85-86...Parish > Hakeem
86-87...Lister > Hakeem
87-88...Donaldson > Hakeem
88-89...Polynice > Hakeem
89-90...Thompson > Hakeem
90-91...Divac > Hakeem
91-92...Gives up after all the many first round exits and doesn't play.
92-93...Sonics with no true center...pick one > Hakeem
95-96...Sonics with no true center...pick one > Hakeem
96-97...Ostertag > Hakeem
97-98...Ostertag and Foster > Hakeem
98-99...well this pretty obvious... Shaq > Hakeem (and by a country mile)
01-02...Wallace > Hakeem

Luckily for Hakeem he didn't bother trying to get to the playoffs in 99-00 and 00-01...or who knows...Carrot-Top > Hakeem...

This fool doesn't even reply to my posts, he only copy and paste other peoples posts and he cherry pick them like there is no tomorrow.

And regarding this bogus logic, Hakeem faced much tougher defensive compared to what Wilt ever did. He got doubled and triple teamed like crazy in the playoffs.

You have been spamming about the so called swarming defensive teams that were guarding Wilt but I have never seen any footage that proves any of your nonsense.

So now show us, show us the "swarming" defensive teams on video, there are enough footage out there for you to use as proof. No more can you hide behind quotes and lies.

And I'm not going to bother replying in full regarding your post above, it's beyond stupid.

millwad

09-04-2013, 10:39 PM

Don't need jlauber for this...

The very FIRST footage I pulled up...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wEzEHPZi3w

On virtually EVERY possession, Chamberlain is doubled, tripled, and swarmed...

And this is just ONE QUARTER of ONE game out of the 1200 that Wilt played in...

HAHA! I can't stop laughing, you ****ing clown.

Is that what you call getting swarmed? Haha, he played in a freaking era without 3 point line and his teammates running in to him and dragging their defenders on him for a few moments, is that what you call getting "double and triple teamed"?

Haha, I just lost the last respect I had for you. You ****ing silly, lying hypocrite.

LAZERUSS

09-04-2013, 10:46 PM

HAHA! I can't stop laughing, you ****ing clown.

Is that what you call getting swarmed? Haha, he played in a freaking era without 3 point line and his teammates running in to him and dragging their defenders on him for a few moments, is that what you call getting "double and triple teamed"?

Haha, I just lost the last respect I had for you. You ****ing silly, lying hypocrite.

I'll save myself some time...

Just read my RESEARCH on the DOUBLE, TRIPLE, SWARMING, BRUTAL DEFENSES that Chamberlain faced...

Now, you find me some articles which refute them!

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=301794&page=2

A prime Chamberlain was the most heavily-defended, and most brutalized player in NBA HISTORY...

Now, gvie me YOUR research...

millwad

09-04-2013, 10:51 PM

I'll save myself some time...

Just read my RESEARCH on the DOUBLE, TRIPLE, SWARMING, BRUTAL DEFENSES that Chamberlain faced...

Now, you find me some articles which refute them!

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=301794&page=2

A prime Chamberlain was the most heavily-defended, and most brutalized player in NBA HISTORY...

Now, gvie me YOUR research...

Haha, **** off.

I just saw your "proof" of the so called double and triple team clip from the NBA finals. If that is the defense "the most heavily defended and most brutalized player in NBA history" faced then I have nothing more to say to you other than you being a clown, a liar and fake basketball fan.

There is no way what so ever a rational and basketball loving fan would ever say something like that and actually feel any pride in his "knowledge". The double and triple teams are not existing in the clip, the times he got doubled and tripled was when his teammates basically stand next to him and pass him. No spreading the floor what so ever.

And shove your "research" in your ass, I want actual footage. We have enough footage for you to actually prove your claim with footage rather than quotes.

Don't be a clown and show me actual double and triple teams and swarming defense, not the freaking bogus you just posted. That was horrible and laughable.

LAZERUSS

09-04-2013, 10:54 PM

First of all, the only beaten dog is your whore mother who sucked dick day in and out for putting food on your plate, all that work for a bastard child.

The numbers?
They certainly aren't lying, Olajuwon had his own going while Shaq was crazy turnover prone and averaging the most amount of turnovers by a center in league history in a 4 game series.

And it's funny how your logic just goes away when you mention the '72 series.
So you try to give the edge to Shaq in this series although all the media, Shaq himself and all the fans give the edge to Hakeem.

At the same time you claimed that Kareem got "murdered" by Kareem in the '72 series while he averaged 23 points per game more than Wilt, while Kareem averaged more assists than Wilt, while Kareem shot the ball with a higher FG% and while Kareem shot FT's crazy much better than Wilt.

How does that makes sense to you? If you want to talk about a beaten dog, then Wilt is the man.

I could also post the MILWAUKEE PRESS and THEIR take on the '72 WCF's between a 35 year old Wilt and a PRIME 25 year old Kareem, or the MILWAUKEE COACH crediting Wilt with being the difference in that series, or TIME MAGAZINE declaring that Wilt DECISIVELY outplayed Kareem.

Or that Chambelain held Kareem to .457 shooting in that series (much like Hakeem against Shaq...pure shot-jacking)..or that Wilt held Kareem to .414 shooting over the course of the last FOUR games of that series (three of them Laker wins). Or that in those four straght games, Chamberlain held Kareem below 50% (WAY BELOW), which was ONE more game than Hakeem could hold a 37-41 KAJ to in 23 career H2H's (Kareem not only outscored Hakeem in those 23 career H2H's...he outshot him by a .607 to .512 margin.)

But no need. This was a near 36 year old Wilt battling a prime 25 year old Kareem...and being hailed as the "winner" in that series.

Now how about a 36 year old Hakeem vs a 26 year old Shaq?

What a BLODDBATH that was...:roll: :roll: :roll:

kNicKz

09-04-2013, 10:55 PM

I could also post the MILWAUKEE PRESS and THEIR take on the '72 WCF's between a 35 year old Wilt and a PRIME 25 year old Kareem, or the MILWAUKEE COACH crediting Wilt with being the difference in that series, or TIME MAGAZINE declaring that Wilt DECISIVELY outplayed Kareem.

Or that Chambelain held Kareem to .457 shooting in that series (much like Hakeem against Shaq...pure shot-jacking)..or that Wilt held Kareem to .414 shooting over the course of the last FOUR games of that series (three of them Laker wins). Or that in those four straght games, Chamberlain held Kareem below 50% (WAY BELOW), which was ONE more game than Hakeem could hold a 37-41 KAJ to in 23 career H2H's (Kareem not only outscored Hakeem in those 23 career H2H's...he outshot him by a .607 to .512 margin.)

But no need. This was a near 36 year old Wilt battling a prime 25 year old Kareem...and being hailed as the "winner" in that series.

Now how about a 36 year old Hakeem vs a 26 year old Shaq?

What a BLODDBATH that was...:roll: :roll: :roll:

How can you act like this dude didn't just post a picture of a d1ck in this thread ???

BAN THIS DUDE

millwad

09-04-2013, 11:00 PM

I could also post the MILWAUKEE PRESS and THEIR take on the '72 WCF's between a 35 year old Wilt and a PRIME 25 year old Kareem, or the MILWAUKEE COACH crediting Wilt with being the difference in that series, or TIME MAGAZINE declaring that Wilt DECISIVELY outplayed Kareem.

He got the absolutely demolished by Kareem in the four first games and to claim anything else is revisionist history and the article you keep spamming is describing the last 2 games and not the overall series.

Wilt was badly abused in the first four games and in total he was outscored with 23 points per game, that's a huge number and Kareem shot with better FG% than Wilt overall as well so you totally fail. Wilt got totally locked down in that series and Kareem shitted on time after time.

After 4 games in that series their average was;

KAJ: 34 points ( 48% shooting), 16 rebounds and 4.5 assists

Wilt: 8 points (36% shooting), 16.5 rebounds and 3 assists

Get the **** out of here, you ****ing clown.

millwad

09-04-2013, 11:02 PM

How can you act like this dude didn't just post a picture of a d1ck in this thread ???

BAN THIS DUDE

He's been doing in basically every thread, the dude got his alts. exposed and now he's acting like a clown.

kNicKz

09-04-2013, 11:05 PM

He's been doing in basically every thread, the dude got his alts. exposed and now he's acting like a clown.

Can a ****ing mod ban him or ??? I put 1 of the accounts on my ignore but other alts are now posting them :biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

LAZERUSS

09-04-2013, 11:08 PM

He got the absolutely demolished by Kareem in the four first games and to claim anything else is revisionist history and the article you keep spamming is describing the last 2 games and not the overall series.

Wilt was badly abused in the first four games and in total he was outscored with 23 points per game, that's a huge number and Kareem shot with better FG% than Wilt overall as well so you totally fail. Wilt got totally locked down in that series and Kareem shitted on time after time.

After 4 games in that series their average was;

KAJ: 34 points ( 48% shooting), 16 rebounds and 4.5 assists

Wilt: 8 points (36% shooting), 16.5 rebounds and 3 assists

Get the **** out of here, you ****ing clown.

http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,879093,00.html

Chamberlain performed so well in the series that TIME magazine stated, "In the N.B.A.'s western division title series with Milwaukee, he (Chamberlain) decisively outplayed basketball's newest giant superstar, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, eleven years his junior."

millwad

09-04-2013, 11:13 PM

http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,879093,00.html

Which exactly means that he decisively outplayed Kareem.
It says absolutely nothing about the first 4 games where Wilt was getting completely destroyed, abused and shitted on..

KAJ: 34 points ( 48% shooting), 16 rebounds and 4.5 assists

Wilt: 8 points (36% shooting), 16.5 rebounds and 3 assists

And since you want to believe those two articles so much, why are you so extremely against the fact that everyone gave the edge to Olajuwon in '95? You're beinga hypocrite and a clown.

So you want us to believe you and the bogus you claim because of an article where it says that Wilt "decisively outplayed" Kareem but yet you are calling everything regarding the media and their views about the '95 finals. And it's not only the media, Shaq himself and the players say the same thing.

You're acting lika hypocrite and a fool.

LAZERUSS

09-04-2013, 11:13 PM

Once again...a near 36 year old Wilt vs a prime 25 year old KAJ

Kareem’s Image as Best Suffered in Buck Defeat
Bob Wolf
The Milwaukee Journal, April 24, 1972

When the Milwaukee Bucks won the National Basketball Association championship a year ago, there was talk that they had a dynasty in the making.

But their dynasty ended before it really began, and Kareem Abdul Jabbar’s reputation as the greatest center of all time was tarnished in the process.

Abdul-Jabbar failed to outplay either Nate Thurmond of the Golden State Warriors or Wilt Chamberlain of the Los Angeles Lakers in the playoffs, and his inability to contain Chamberlain finally made the difference in the Laker series that ended in disaster at the Arena Saturday

Matter of Muscle

In the first round series with the Warriors, Abdul-Jabbar outrebounded Thurmond 95-89, but was outscored, 127-114. The Bucks won the series, four games to one.

In the semifinal series with the Lakers, Abdul-Jabbar had a tremendous edge in scoring, 202-67, but was outrebounded, 116-105, and was outmuscled by a greater margin than that. He actually reached the point on occasion where he was intimidated by Chamberlain as he headed toward the basket, and who ever heard of the big Buck being intimidated?

The Lakers eliminated the Bucks in six games, and the turning point occurred, with the series tied 2-2, when Chamberlain took advantage of his tremendous advantage in weight and strength and began pushing Abdul-Jabbar around. Wilt is listed at 275 pounds but probably weighs 290, to Abdul-Jabbar’s 230.

Perhaps the best illustration of Abdul-Jabbar’s difficulties lay in his shooting averages. He shot .574 in the regular season but only .437 in the playoffs ― .405 against Thurmond and .457 against Chamberlain.

Because of the strong defensive work of his two veteran rivals, Abdul-Jabbar often was forced away from his favorite shooting positions. He took hook shots from 12 to 15 feet away instead of from 8 to 10, and sometimes he even resorted to 15 foot jump shots.

Keep It Up

As Chamberlain put it after the fifth game in Los Angeles, which the Lakers won, 115-90, “Tonight Kareem was taking jump shots. That’s something he doesn’t usually do, but I hope he keeps on doing it.”

Abdul-Jabbar took more jump shots Saturday as the Lakers ended the series with a 104-100 victory, and Bucks Coach Larry Costello said, “I don’t want Kareem taking 15 footers. You do that and you’re just not playing your game.”

But Chamberlain’s dominating presence obviously had much to do with Abdul-Jabbar’s change in tactics, and Wilt’s performance against the man who supposedly had usurped his title as king of the giants must have been one of the most satisfying of his long career.

millwad

09-04-2013, 11:20 PM

Once again...a near 36 year old Wilt vs a prime 25 year old KAJ

That's nothing but laughable, Kareem absolutely destroyed Wilt in the first 4 games;

KAJ: 34 points ( 48% shooting), 16 rebounds and 4.5 assists

Wilt: 8 points (36% shooting), 16.5 rebounds and 3 assists

And you can't find a more one-sided article then that, no mention of Wilt's horrible FT-shooting, no mention of Wilt getting outscored with 23 points per game while shooting with worse FG%. I couldn't find that article either, who is Bob Wolf?

LAZERUSS

09-04-2013, 11:23 PM

An OLD Wilt, on a surgically repaired knee and a PRIME Kareem played in 28 career H2H's...

Kareem shot .464 overall.

He had 18 games of under 50%, and only one above 60%. He also had SIX below 40%.

A 38 and 39 year old Kareem battled Hakeem in TEN STRAIGHT H2H games in their 84-85, and 85-86 seasons...and yes, Hakeem was the one defending KAJ (or should I laughingly say... DIDN'T GUUARD the OLD Kareem)

In those 10 straight games, Kareem AVERAGED 33 ppg, on get this... a .630 FG%. Yes a .630 FG%. Furthermore, KAJ had THREE games of 40, 43, and 46 (on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes...BTW, the article on that game claimed that Kareem probably would have shattered his career high of 55 had he played more minutes.)

It got so bad, that the embarrassed Houston coac had to YANK Hakeem off of Kareem in the '86 WDF's, and put Sampson on him (although Hakeem doubled him.)

The result,...with Sampson "holding" Kareem to 27 ppg and on .496 shooting, Hakeem managed to slightly outscore the 39 year old KAJ in that series, by a 31-27 margin, outrebounding Kareem, 11-7 rpg (BTW, KAJ only averaged 6 in the season), and outshooting Kareem, .520 to .496.

Wow... a near prime Hakeem (in his greatest FG% season) barely outscored a 39 year old KAJ in the '86 WCF's.

And yet a PRIME Kareem, in Wilt's LAST season, covering SIX straight games, averaged 29 ppg...on get this...a .450 FG%. BTW, the 36 year old Wilt outshot Kareem in those h2h's by a .737 to .450 margin, and even outscored KAJ in one game, 24-21, while outshooting him from the field by a 10-14 to 10-27 margin.

millwad

09-04-2013, 11:24 PM

LAZERUSS

09-04-2013, 11:29 PM

This is laughable, you're arguing with yourself again.

Now, I have posted a 36 year old Wilt vs a 26 year old KAJ...

how about posting a 36 year old Hakeem vs a 26 year old Shaq. Oh, and while your sharing the numbers with all of us...how about finding articles like I presented, which credit that 36 year old Hakeem with decisively outplaying the 26 year old Shaq in the '99 playoffs (and as always...a first round exit for the king of first round exits)..

Go ahead...if you don't, I will...

millwad

09-04-2013, 11:33 PM

Now, I have posted a 36 year old Wilt vs a 26 year old KAJ...

how about posting a 36 year old Hakeem vs a 26 year old Shaq. Oh, and while your saring the numbes with al o us...how about finding articles like I presented, which credit that 36 year old Hakeem dcisively outplaying the 36 year old Shaq in the '99 playoffs (and as always...a first round exit for the king of first round exits)..

Go ahead...if you don't, I will...

I mean, this is so ****ing silly. You are basically discussing and arguing with yourself and then you jump from one thing to another and you seem to be so lost, so delusional and so nutty.

I have never mentioned 36 year old Hakeem outplaying Shaq to start with, what the hell is wrong with you? You got some serious issues, I mean, you take this as a personal feud and you do whatever you can to prove people on the net wrong and you use the most absurd arguments in your try to brainwash people.

Why the hell should I prove something I've never claimed?

And in the end of the day, Wilt Chamberlain was a statpadding loser who didn't win anything at all 'til others took over the scoring for him, the one thing he couldn't do while winning in the playoffs.

millwad

09-04-2013, 11:34 PM

And you still haven't posted actual footage of Wilt getting double and tripled team, I want to see actual footage of all those things you've claimed. Not horrible and unorganized defense a la the video you just posted. I honestly laughed and shaked my head while watching that nonsense, that was garbage defense and the only reason anyone of the other defenders got close to Wilt was because of the horrible spreading on the court by Wilt's own teammates.

Iceman#44

09-05-2013, 09:03 AM

Wilt= mde

Kblaze8855

09-05-2013, 09:24 AM

That's nothing but laughable, Kareem absolutely destroyed Wilt in the first 4 games;

KAJ: 34 points ( 48% shooting), 16 rebounds and 4.5 assists

Wilt: 8 points (36% shooting), 16.5 rebounds and 3 assists

And you can't find a more one-sided article then that, no mention of Wilt's horrible FT-shooting, no mention of Wilt getting outscored with 23 points per game while shooting with worse FG%. I couldn't find that article either, who is Bob Wolf?

Have you really never wondered why you...who saw none of this...think he got abused...and people who saw it didnt?

You really think Wilt not scoring because he made no effort to score means hes getting abused?

Perhaps hes....doing what hes asked to make his team win? Which I suppose worked out...considering that they won and observers believed he played as well as or outplayed Kareem?

What do you think your stats tell you that watching the game didnt tell the people at the time?

Think they didnt notice Kareem shooting 30 times a game and Wilt shooting 7?

Someone shoots 4 times more than you that means they outplayed you even if it isnt your job to score?

julizaver

09-05-2013, 09:34 AM

I'm putting your head in my butthole.

First try to take off yours. If it is possible of course.

Seriously put some efforts in some useful things rather than trolling and hating around and leave people who actually love basketball to talk about.

Marchesk

09-05-2013, 10:24 AM

He's been doing in basically every thread, the dude got his alts. exposed and now he's acting like a clown.

What alts? Everyone knows Lazeruss is jlauber.

Owl

09-05-2013, 04:38 PM

Charley Rosen, "That Pivotal Season:" (Page 43)

(Page 98)

Two days later Baylor retired.

And the rest, as they say, was history. Sharman inserted Jim McMillian into the starting lineup, and the 6-3 Lakers would not lose again until game number 43.

Baylor was essentially done after the '70 Finals. He only played a total of 11 more games in the new two years. And, the reality was, aside from coach Van Breda Kolf, Baylor was the main reason that the Lakers lost in the '69 Finals. He couldn't hit the ocean from a lifeboat in that series,... but he kept shot-jacking anyway.
Okay, I was wondering if it might be Rosen. I'm interested in that Laker team but decided not to get that book after seeing the reviews (3 star average on Amazon, and all the top reviews are 1 or 2 stars).

He's also come in for some criticism for "The Wizard of Oz" his book on Jack Molinas (see the top review for that) so tbh I tend to take Rosen with a pinch of salt.

Whilst being inaccurate in certain areas doesn't mean he always was, I'm surprised to see a Wilt fan cite Rosen.

As for Baylor's play, looking at his numbers versus the league norms (or just looking at advanced metrics) he was clearly an elite, all-time player for his first five years, thereafter less so falling off in all areas (points, fta, percentages -especially relative to league norms-, rebounding and defense). Strangely (especially for an aging, repeatedly injured, former(?) aerialist) he came back strong his last semi-full season (in the absence of VBK and for most of the season Chamberlain, though his woes predated eithers arrival).

Deuce Bigalow

09-05-2013, 04:52 PM

Wilt= mde
Give me Shaq

Playoffs
Wilt Chamberlain - 22.5 PPG, 21.9 TRB%, 12.9 AST%, 52.4 TS%
Shaquille O'Neal - 24.3 PPG, 18.0 TRB%, 14.7 AST%, 56.5 TS%

Finals
Wilt Chamberlain - 18.6 PPG, 22.0 TRB%, 52.8 TS%
Shaquille O'Neal - 28.8 PPG, 18.3 TRB%, 59.0 TS%

CavaliersFTW

09-05-2013, 04:59 PM

Have you really never wondered why you...who saw none of this...think he got abused...and people who saw it didnt?

You really think Wilt not scoring because he made no effort to score means hes getting abused?

Perhaps hes....doing what hes asked to make his team win? Which I suppose worked out...considering that they won and observers believed he played as well as or outplayed Kareem?

What do you think your stats tell you that watching the game didnt tell the people at the time?

Think they didnt notice Kareem shooting 30 times a game and Wilt shooting 7?

Someone shoots 4 times more than you that means they outplayed you even if it isnt your job to score?
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-d-bbeDKJ4EU/T2oBieQAqgI/AAAAAAAADSo/RjOjsxLc9_A/s800/April%252023rd%25201972%2520-%2520G6%2520Playoffs%2520Clincher%2520vs%2520Bucks-1.jpg
Full size article Link:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-d-bbeDKJ4EU/T2oBieQAqgI/AAAAAAAADSo/RjOjsxLc9_A/s0/April%252023rd%25201972%2520-%2520G6%2520Playoffs%2520Clincher%2520vs%2520Bucks-1.jpg

And actually there is a typo in there, Chamberlain finished with 20 points that game, not just 10. Consensus is he outplayed Jabbar, not just in newspapers, but even MILWAUKEE bucks teammates. Lucious Allen talks about Chamberlain beating up on Jabbar and outplaying him in the 1972 series in the 1972 Lakers documentary that the NBA just made. So yeah, stats don't reveal what happened at all given the two players had different roles on their teams on offense.

oolalaa

09-05-2013, 05:17 PM

FLAT OUT LIE...

The Lakers were down by 17 points with 10 minutes left in the game. When Chamberlain pulled himself out of the game, the lead had been cut to SEVEN, with more than five minutes left. The Lakers had chopped off ten points in about four minutes...and Boston was on fumes. And Wilt's replacement, me Counts, who would shoot 4-13 from the field, missed a key shot, and had a key turnover late.

Only a complete idiot would have left Chamberlain on the bench in the last five minutes of a game seven...and unfortunately for Laker fans...that is EXACTLY what they had running the show.

West was FURIOUS when he found out about it after the game...and shortly thereafter Van Breda Kolf resigned, before surely being fired. His coaching career went completely downhill after that.

When Wilt went out, L.A. were down by 9 points. They then proceeded to go on a 8-0 run before that lucky Nelson clanker.

Also, during the run, Counts had a big def rebound, played great PnR defense which forced a turnover (commentators mentioned that Wilt's PnR defense was non-existent in the first half), made a mid range jumper, and played good D on Russell that resulted a close range miss.

The Lakers were at least as good with Counts in the game as they were with Wilt. They wouldn't have won either way.

oolalaa

09-05-2013, 05:20 PM

CavaliersFTW

09-05-2013, 05:23 PM

millwad

09-05-2013, 05:26 PM

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-d-bbeDKJ4EU/T2oBieQAqgI/AAAAAAAADSo/RjOjsxLc9_A/s800/April%252023rd%25201972%2520-%2520G6%2520Playoffs%2520Clincher%2520vs%2520Bucks-1.jpg
Full size article Link:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-d-bbeDKJ4EU/T2oBieQAqgI/AAAAAAAADSo/RjOjsxLc9_A/s0/April%252023rd%25201972%2520-%2520G6%2520Playoffs%2520Clincher%2520vs%2520Bucks-1.jpg

And actually there is a typo in there, Chamberlain finished with 20 points that game, not just 10. Consensus is he outplayed Jabbar, not just in newspapers, but even MILWAUKEE bucks teammates. Lucious Allen talks about Chamberlain beating up on Jabbar and outplaying him in the 1972 series in the 1972 Lakers documentary that the NBA just made. So yeah, stats don't reveal what happened at all given the two players had different roles on their teams on offense.

It doesn't say he outplayed him during the series, it mentions the last game.

You guys are totally avoiding the fact that Wilt got destroyed in the first 4 games.

oolalaa

09-05-2013, 05:29 PM

Give me Shaq

Playoffs
Wilt Chamberlain - 22.5 PPG, 21.9 TRB%, 12.9 AST%, 52.4 TS%
Shaquille O'Neal - 24.3 PPG, 18.0 TRB%, 14.7 AST%, 56.5 TS%

Finals
Wilt Chamberlain - 18.6 PPG, 22.0 TRB%, 52.8 TS%
Shaquille O'Neal - 28.8 PPG, 18.3 TRB%, 59.0 TS%

Where are you getting Wilt's TRB% figures from?

Deuce Bigalow

09-05-2013, 05:42 PM

Where are you getting Wilt's TRB% figures from?
I calculated the totals from these 2 files I got from fpliii and used the TRB% formula.
Regular season - http://www2.zippyshare.com/v/2729139/file.html
Playoffs - http://www2.zippyshare.com/v/41530911/file.html
Finals - basketball reference has all the necessary data for each series

I have the exact numbers on his regular season and finals TRB%, but not 100% accuracy on the playoff trb%, but it should be within a tenth of a point of the actual number.

Regular season--20.37%
Playoffs--21.86%*
Finals--22.04%

oolalaa

09-05-2013, 05:53 PM

http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k574/JexThread/smh2jl5l-1.gif

Wilt's presence on the floor is felt in more ways than Counts is, it isn't just about playing defense against Russell and making a basket or two. Wilt physically sets monster screens for his teammates on offense, can score higher % points, and is a far far superior basket protector against any offensive player not just Russell, people don't drive inside when Wilt is in the game. Mentally Wilt understands the game far better than Counts and is a better passer and overall decision maker. Whether or not they would win, is just speculation, however saying Counts is/was just as good for the Lakers - is wrong.

There wasn't much in it. I just rewatched the 4th quarter; Counts was impactful out there. Both he and Wilt were essentially offensive spectators to the Jerry West show - no screens were being set by Wilt, and he was only directly involved in 3 offensive plays during the time he was in (finger roll around Russell, 2 assists to West who was fouled both times). Ane let's not overrate Wilt's defensive capabilities, he was nothing special - great post defender (which was redundant against Russell who was an offensive after thought throughout the entire series) and shot blocker, but mediocre team defender because of his poor lateral movement and PnR deficiencies.

oolalaa

09-05-2013, 05:56 PM

I calculated the totals from these 2 files I got from fpliii and used the TRB% formula.
Regular season - http://www2.zippyshare.com/v/2729139/file.html
Playoffs - http://www2.zippyshare.com/v/41530911/file.html
Finals - basketball reference has all the necessary data for each series

I have the exact numbers on his regular season and finals TRB%, but not 100% accuracy on the playoff trb%, but it should be within a tenth of a point of the actual number.

Regular season--20.37%
Playoffs--21.86%*
Finals--22.04%

I'll have to trust you. Far too lazy to check atm.

CavaliersFTW

09-05-2013, 05:58 PM

There wasn't much in it. I just rewatched the 4th quarter; Counts was impactful out there. Both he and Wilt were essentially offensive spectators to the Jerry West show - no screens were being set by Wilt, and he was only directly involved in 3 offensive plays during the time he was in (finger roll around Russell, 2 assists to West who was fouled both times). Ane let's not overrate Wilt's defensive capabilities, he was nothing special - great post defender (which was redundant against Russell who was an offensive after thought throughout the entire series) and shot blocker, but mediocre team defender because of his poor lateral movement and PnR deficiencies.
Oh I see, your trolling. Shouldn't have bothered to respond.

fpliii

09-05-2013, 06:00 PM

I'll have to trust you. Far too lazy to check atm.

I just used the methodolgy on RealGM:

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=344&t=955514

and did it for all missing player seasons/playoffs going back to 54-55 (I filled in missing AST% for regular seasons too).

Psileas

09-05-2013, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by oolalaa
When Wilt went out, L.A. were down by 9 points. They then proceeded to go on a 8-0 run before that lucky Nelson clanker.

Also, during the run, Counts had a big def rebound, played great PnR defense which forced a turnover (commentators mentioned that Wilt's PnR defense was non-existent in the first half), made a mid range jumper, and played good D on Russell that resulted a close range miss.

The Lakers were at least as good with Counts in the game as they were with Wilt. They wouldn't have won either way.

They didn't "proceed" to do anything, because they were already in the process. They were trailing 98-81, then started their comeback with Wilt playing and had already outscored the Celtics 13-5 when Wilt was injured (and also had the ball, with Wilt grabbing the defensive rebound, while already injured). So, no, it didn't start with Counts, but I didn't expect a better response.

oolalaa

09-05-2013, 06:13 PM

Oh I see, your trolling. Shouldn't have bothered to respond.

Lmfao. Go on, outside of '68, show me a GREAT defense that Wilt anchored. Like I said, GREAT 1on1 post defender, GREAT shot blocker, incredibly mediocre team defender.

You're not one of these ignoramus's like JLauber who thinks that because Wilt held his opposing centers FG% down, and racked up a lot of blocks, he was somehow a beastly defensive anchor who had almost as much impact as Russell, are you? They aren't remotely close. Why not? Because Russ was EVERYWHERE, where as Wilt was everywhere BUT outside the paint. Wilt was a statue, come anywhere near the paint and he would shut you down, but make him move around and he could be very easily exploited, which he was for most of his career.

Wilt was Shaq-esque defensively.

oolalaa

09-05-2013, 06:19 PM

They didn't "proceed" to do anything, because they were already in the process. They were trailing 98-81, then started their comeback with Wilt playing and had already outscored the Celtics 13-5 when Wilt was injured (and also had the ball, with Wilt grabbing the defensive rebound, while already injured). So, no, it didn't start with Counts, but I didn't expect a better response.

Holy moly, I'm fully aware that the comeback run started before Wilt went out. "proceeded" was a little careless, but when a supposedly key piece to the comeback run is benched, wouldn't that change the dynamics and the momentum? Why didn't the run cease when the great Wilt Chamberlain went out? Huh? Tell me..

but I didn't expect a better response.

Who are you?

oolalaa

09-05-2013, 06:22 PM

I just used the methodolgy on RealGM:

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=344&t=955514

and did it for all missing player seasons/playoffs going back to 54-55 (I filled in missing AST% for regular seasons too).

Great stuff, thanks.

Psileas

09-05-2013, 06:55 PM

Holy moly, I'm fully aware that the comeback run started before Wilt went out. "proceeded" was a little careless, but when a supposedly key piece to the comeback run is benched, wouldn't that change the dynamics and the momentum? Why didn't the run cease when the great Wilt Chamberlain went out? Huh? Tell me..

Maybe because the Lakers were playing better altogether...? :confusedshrug:
Why should their run stop? They didn't make any substitution that had them running. They improved their defense, got Russell his 5th foul, hit some jump shots they probably weren't hitting earlier on. The momentum was theirs. Mel Counts played fine, too, probably inspired by the run they had already started.

oolalaa

09-05-2013, 07:14 PM

Have you really never wondered why you...who saw none of this...think he got abused...and people who saw it didnt?

You really think Wilt not scoring because he made no effort to score means hes getting abused?

Perhaps hes....doing what hes asked to make his team win? Which I suppose worked out...considering that they won and observers believed he played as well as or outplayed Kareem?

What do you think your stats tell you that watching the game didnt tell the people at the time?

Think they didnt notice Kareem shooting 30 times a game and Wilt shooting 7?

Someone shoots 4 times more than you that means they outplayed you even if it isnt your job to score?

What was the reasoning for Wilt holding Kareem 'to a standstill' (or close) through the first four games? His defense? Right? That must be it, surely. The little things like setting great screens, boxing out, outlet passing, and even 'clutchness' (i'm giving Wilt the benefit of the doubt that he was superior at all of these) can only account for so much.

Only, I'm a little confused, the Bucks comfortably outscored the Lakers through the first 4 games, and, as shown, Wilt only 'held' Kareem to 34ppg on 48% shooting, where as Kareem held Wilt to 8ppg on 36% shooting.

So, we're supposed to believe that Kareem, who anchored the better defense through the first 4 games, and held Wilt to significantly below his regular season averages in points and FG%, was not only worse that Wilt defensively, but, realistically, MUCH worse? We're supposed to believe that the series was a wash after 4 games because Wilt and Kareem were a wash?

I don't buy it.

oolalaa

09-05-2013, 07:18 PM

Maybe because the Lakers were playing better altogether...? :confusedshrug:
Why should their run stop? They didn't make any substitution that had them running. They improved their defense, got Russell his 5th foul, hit some jump shots they probably weren't hitting earlier on. The momentum was theirs. Mel Counts played fine, too, probably inspired by the run they had already started.

No, the reason the Lakers made a comeback was simple: Jerry West. That's why it made little difference who the Lakers center was.

millwad

09-05-2013, 07:28 PM

What was the reasoning for Wilt holding Kareem 'to a standstill' (or close) through the first four games? His defense? Right? That must be it, surely. The little things like setting great screens, boxing out, outlet passing, and even 'clutchness' (i'm giving Wilt the benefit of the doubt that he was superior at all of these) can only account for so much.

Only, I'm a little confused, the Bucks comfortably outscored the Lakers through the first 4 games, and, as shown, Wilt only 'held' Kareem to 34ppg on 48% shooting, where as Kareem held Wilt to 8ppg on 36% shooting.

So, we're supposed to believe that Kareem, who anchored the better defense through the first 4 games, and held Wilt to significantly below his regular season averages in points and FG%, was not only worse that Wilt defensively, but, realistically, MUCH worse? We're supposed to believe that the series was even after 4 games because Wilt and Kareem were near enough a wash?

I don't buy it.

This.

And I like how Wilt-fans always use stats when it fits their agenda, like all the times Russell kicked Wilt out of the playoffs they wouldn't care less about anything but stats.

Just like you asked for, what in the name of god did Wilt do that gave him the edge over Kareem in the first 4 games when their stats looked like this:

KAJ: 34 points ( 48% shooting), 16 rebounds and 4.5 assists

Wilt: 8 points (36% shooting), 16.5 rebounds and 3 assist

So Kareem shot the ball with a much higher percentage while averaging 26 points more per game, he averaged 1.5 more assists per game, he shot FT's at a much higher percentage and he only averaged 0.5 rebounds less than Wilt per game.

So was it the 0.5 rebound per game in the first four that made up for the the big difference in FG- and FT%, the 26 point difference in scoring and the 1.5 assist difference?

Psileas

09-05-2013, 07:55 PM

No, the reason the Lakers made a comeback was simple: Jerry West. That's why it made little difference who the Lakers center was.

West had a great game. However, I have already mentioned that the Lakers made jump shots they probably didn't make before. West made the majority of them, shooting 4-5 from the field. However, he finished the game with 14-29. Which means that, despite having a great all-around game, his shot wasn't that hot up to then.
It didn't make "little difference" who the Lakers' center was, because Counts would hardly give Russell 5 fouls, shoot 7-8 and grab 27 rebounds in 42 minutes. Wilt, despite Counts' good 2-minute stretch, seems to be the Lakers' 2nd best player in that game.

LAZERUSS

09-05-2013, 08:49 PM

Okay, I was wondering if it might be Rosen. I'm interested in that Laker team but decided not to get that book after seeing the reviews (3 star average on Amazon, and all the top reviews are 1 or 2 stars).

He's also come in for some criticism for "The Wizard of Oz" his book on Jack Molinas (see the top review for that) so tbh I tend to take Rosen with a pinch of salt.

Whilst being inaccurate in certain areas doesn't mean he always was, I'm surprised to see a Wilt fan cite Rosen.

As for Baylor's play, looking at his numbers versus the league norms (or just looking at advanced metrics) he was clearly an elite, all-time player for his first five years, thereafter less so falling off in all areas (points, fta, percentages -especially relative to league norms-, rebounding and defense). Strangely (especially for an aging, repeatedly injured, former(?) aerialist) he came back strong his last semi-full season (in the absence of VBK and for most of the season Chamberlain, though his woes predated eithers arrival).

Rosen was certainly not a fan of Chamberlain. Just like oolalaa, he completely mis-represented Chamberlain in that game seven of the '69 Finals. (More on that in bit.) In fact, he flat out got it wrong. He claimed that the Lakers were LEADING by 15 points late in the third period, and Wilt then picked up his 5th foul, and shortly thereafter, pulled himself out, feigning an injury.

However, even for Rosen's disdain of Chamberlain, it is readily apparent that he credits Wilt for taking LA to the title in '72 (and how could he not.)

LAZERUSS

09-05-2013, 09:18 PM

When Wilt went out, L.A. were down by 9 points. They then proceeded to go on a 8-0 run before that lucky Nelson clanker.

Also, during the run, Counts had a big def rebound, played great PnR defense which forced a turnover (commentators mentioned that Wilt's PnR defense was non-existent in the first half), made a mid range jumper, and played good D on Russell that resulted a close range miss.

The Lakers were at least as good with Counts in the game as they were with Wilt. They wouldn't have won either way.

And now...the REAL story.

First of all, here is how it all went down...

Chamberlain picked up his 5th foul late in the THIRD period..and contrary to popular myth, he continued to PLAY..AND...DOMINATED the paint and the glass.

And how about this great COACHING: Early in the 4th period, Russell picked up HIS 5th personal foul. The very next play the Lakers go right into Chamberlain, who waltz's right past Russell's "matador" defense for an easy layin. And isn't that fascinating,. too. Chamberlain received a completely false rep for not playing defense with five fouls (and the reality was, he rarely even had THREE), yet, here was Russell just side-stepping Wilt for an easy basket. BUT, back to COACHING point....that was the LAST time Chamberlain received a pass in the low post. Now what kind of idiot would not have milked that play until Russell fouled or, or benched himself?

Of course...Van Breda Kolf made this brilliant statement in that season..."When we pass the ball into Wilt, sure, he will score. But it is an ugly offense to watch." No wonder the man never amounted to sh%t again as a head coach.

More on Russell in that 4th quarter. He was NOWHERE to be found. The man did not play a lick of defense (he was HIDING), did not do ANYTHING on the offensive end...and basically watched in total shock as his Celtics ran on fumes in the last ten minutes.

Now, the Lakers trailed by 17 points with 10 minutes left. In the next four minutes they just blew past a dying Boston team. The lead was nine when Chamberlain challenged a Celtic shot, grabbed the horrible miss, and came down awkwardly on his knee (the same knee that he would shred early on in the next season BTW.) He continued to play, and his outlet led to a fast-break basket, which, of course, Baylor missed. Boston came down, and again missed the shot, and guess what...it was WILT who grabbed the rebound. He passed out to West. LA called timeout to get Wilt off the floor. When play resumed, Wilt came back out, and shortly after West was fouled ...which led to two FTs. Wilt then came out.. So, the REALITY was, the margin was cut to SEVEN with Chamberlain on the floor.

As a sidenote...Chamberlain had as many rebounds in that 4th quarter, on those two possessions with an injured knee...as Russell had in the ENTIRE period! Hell, Chamberlain played seven minutes in the 4th stanza, and outrebounded Russell, who "played" all 12 minutes (played is not what he was doing...he was HIDING)... by a margin of 7-2.

In any case, in those four+ minutes, the Lakers furious rally had cut a 17 point margin, to SEVEN. With more than five minutes left. And Boston was done. They were holding on for dear life. Their most clutch player, Sam Jones had fouled out, so their offense was severly limited, too. And, BTW, West missed TWO FTs down the stretch, too.

With a little more than three minutes remaining, Chamberlain asked to go back in. And how did the bull-headed VB Kolf respond? He said NO. To the greatest force in the history of the game. Instead, he let Mel "4-13 from the floor" Counts lead the team. And how did Counts play. He took a horrible shot, that missed badly late in the game, and then threw the ball away in the waning seconds.

So, for those that blame WILT for that loss, I would argue...how could they? He wasn't even on the floor when they suddenly couldn't a hit a shot down the stretch. And, as always, Russell was saved by yet ANOTHER miraculous shot (Boston's SECOND game-winning MIRACLE shot in the series.)

There is absolutely no question, that had the Lakers had the dominating presence of Wilt on the floor in the last three minutes, they would have won. No doubt at all.

Instead, Van Breda Kolf decided his hatred of Chamberlain was more important than leading LA to their first ever title in Los Angeles. His incompetence cost LA a title, and him his coaching career. The laughingstock would never again coach a competitve team.

Chamberlain did finally get his "revenge" when he shut down Kareem in the last FOUR games of the '72 WCF's, and then dominated a Knick team with FIVE HOFers in the Finals.

BTW, for those idiots that claim that Wilt did not leave the paint...just watch game five of the '72 Finals. In fact, after Jerry Lucas was bombing shots from the 405 freeway in the first half of game one (9-11 from the field in that half), Chamberlain not only stifled Lucas (who had legitimate 25 ft range) to the tune of a .457 FG% the rest of the series, he also shut down the lane. Even more remarkably, the Knicks were basically a jump shot shooting team, and yet, Chamberlain averaged 7.4 bpg in that series.

Of course Wilt, playing with one hand badly sprained, and the othe BROKEN, just DOMINATED in the clinching game five. Unlike players like Reed, who, when injured, contributed virtually nothing, or Kareem, who would miss CHUNKS of TWO seasons with a broken hand, as well as a clinching game six of a Finals with a mild sprain...here was Wilt hustling all over the floor, blocking eight shots, grabbing 29 rebounds (out of a total of 106...and the entire Knicks team only had 39 BTW)...and pouring in 24 points, on 10-14 shooting. And, winning the FMVP. All in a series in which "Mr. Clutch" shot .325 from the field.

millwad

09-05-2013, 09:31 PM

Of course...Van Breda Kolf made this brilliant statement in that season..."When we pass the ball into Wilt, sure, he will score. But it is an ugly offense to watch." No wonder the man never amounted to sh%t again as a head coach.

He never said that, a big fat lie.

And now when you're at it, has Wilt ever had a bad game in your eyes?

millwad

09-05-2013, 09:35 PM

Of course Wilt, playing with one hand badly sprained, and the othe BROKEN, just DOMINATED in the clinching game five. Unlike players like Reed, who, when injured, contributed virtually nothing, or Kareem, who would miss CHUNKS of TWO seasons with a broken hand, as well as a clinching game six of a Finals with a mild sprain...here was Wilt hustling all over the floor, blocking eight shots, grabbing 29 rebounds (out of a total of 106...and the entire Knicks team only had 39 BTW)...and pouring in 24 points, on 10-14 shooting. And, winning the FMVP. All in a series in which "Mr. Clutch" shot .325 from the field.

Haha, all these phantom injuries..

It was a fractured bone, not a hand, you idiot.

Deuce Bigalow

09-05-2013, 09:46 PM

With a little more than three minutes remaining, Chamberlain asked to go back in. And how did the bull-headed VB Kolf respond? He said NO. To the greatest force in the history of the game. Instead, he let Mel "4-13 from the floor" Counts lead the team. And how did Counts play. He took a horrible shot, that missed badly late in the game, and then threw the ball away in the waning seconds.
What was Wilt's FT-FTA that game? I'm pretty sure its....

millwad

09-05-2013, 09:49 PM

What was Wilt's FT-FTA that game? I'm pretty sure its....

Are we talking about game 7 of the '69 finals?
That was the game when Wilt made 4 out of 13 FT's (30% FT-shooting, haha) and his team lost with 2 points..

BIGGEST CHOKE JOB OF ALL-TIME.

Deuce Bigalow

09-05-2013, 09:51 PM

Are we talking about game 7 of the '69 finals?
That was the game when Wilt made 4 out of 13 FT's (30% FT-shooting, haha) and his team lost with 2 points..

BIGGEST CHOKE JOB OF ALL-TIME.
http://iruntheinternet.com/lulzdump/images/gifs/Antonio-Banderas-computer-you-got-me-yospos-reaction-13677939419.gif

oolalaa

09-05-2013, 10:25 PM

Are we talking about game 7 of the '69 finals?
That was the game when Wilt made 4 out of 13 FT's (30% FT-shooting, haha) and his team lost with 2 points..

BIGGEST CHOKE JOB OF ALL-TIME.

It wasn't even the biggest choke job of the series. In fact, it wasn't even the SECOND biggest choke job of the series.

In the crucial game 4 (L.A. had a chance to go up 3-1), Wilt scored a total of 8 points, went 2/11 from the line, and the Lakers lost by ONE point. Sure, Baylor was anemically bad (5 points on 2/14 shooting), but one would have to be exceedingly blind and desperate to prop Wilt up by tearing down Baylor, who was in the midst of the worst 3 game stretch any 'star player' has ever had in the post season.

And, worst of all, in the close-out game 6, in a game in which Wilt KNEW that Jerry West was hurt (with a heavily bandaged left leg from a hamstring injury) and that he'd have to step up offensively to compensate (Wilt after game 5: "Can we win without Jerry? No, I don't think so. If Jerry can't play, I guess I'll have to do more on offense. I have to be ready to play"), scored a grand total of ONE field goal on FIVE shot attempts!

Presumably, the repost from someone sycophantically obsessed about the greatness of one player would be "Wilt was lumbered with the worst coach in NBA history. If only Breda Kolff told Wilt to shoot more, if only he made it an explicit gameplan to revolve the offense around Wilt.." Never mind that Breda Kolff after the game said that "We got the ball into him at times but he didn't do anything with it", it makes you wonder, if Breda Kolff told Wilt to strip naked, squat down, and take a dump at midcourt, would Wilt have done it? Was Wilt a mindless coach obeying robot?

millwad

09-05-2013, 11:09 PM

It wasn't even the biggest choke job of the series. In fact, it wasn't even the SECOND biggest choke job of the series.

In the crucial game 4 (L.A. had a chance to go up 3-1), Wilt scored a total of 8 points, went 2/11 from the line, and the Lakers lost by ONE point. Sure, Baylor was anemically bad (5 points on 2/14 shooting), but one would have to be exceedingly blind and desperate to prop Wilt up by tearing down Baylor, who was in the midst of the worst 3 game stretch any 'star player' has ever had in the post season.

That is what I find so laughable about it, every time Wilt was didn't show up his beloved fans blamed others instead. I still recall Jlauber's excuses and how he wrote essay after essay about Baylor's shortcomings just to take the focus away from Wilt. There are excuses for every single failure of Wilt's career.

He lost because of his teammates, he scored less because of his coaches, he missed FT's but it didn't matter because he made more FT's in total compared to others who shot with much higher FG%. His FG% and scoring went down in the playoffs because of his coaches and the list goes on.

My personal favourite is the one about all his phantom injuries that people excuse him for and how he "barely could walk" while he in fact averaged 48 minutes per game on the court..

And, worst of all, in the close-out game 6, in a game in which Wilt KNEW that Jerry West was hurt (with a heavily bandaged left leg from a hamstring injury) and that he'd have to step up offensively to compensate (Wilt after game 5: "Can we win without Jerry? No, I don't think so. If Jerry can't play, I guess I'll have to do more on offense. I have to be ready to play"), scored a grand total of ONE field goal on FIVE shot attempts!

Hey, It was the coach's fault.

Presumably, the repost from someone sycophantically obsessed about the greatness of one player would be "Wilt was lumbered with the worst coach in NBA history. If only Breda Kolff told Wilt to shoot more, if only he made it an explicit gameplan to revolve the offense around Wilt.." Never mind that Breda Kolff after the game said that "We got the ball into him at times but he didn't do anything with it", it makes you wonder, if Breda Kolff told Wilt to strip naked, squat down, and take a dump at midcourt, would Wilt have done it? Was Wilt a mindless coach obeying robot?

The excuses never ends, everything from bad teammates, choking teammates, "injuries", horrible coaches and the list goes on. I've never seen so many excuses regarding one player's failure to become a champion.

LAZERUSS

09-06-2013, 04:32 AM

Haha, all these phantom injuries..

It was a fractured bone, not a hand, you idiot.

Not sure what your point was. It was a wrist bone...and it was fractured. Kareem missed chunks, TWICE, in his career with a broken BONE in his hand. BTW, maybe you can tell us which bone it was.

Virtually EVERY account had Wilt playing with a broken HAND.

And Chamberlain played EVERY minute of the '68 EDF's, despite having a tear in his quad. Reed had a similar injury and missed 1/2 of one game, three-fourths of another, and a FULL game in the '70 Finals (the same Finals in which Chamberlain played just four months after MAJOR KNEE SURGERY...and was nowhere near 100%.)

"Phantom injuries." What a complete idiot.

LAZERUSS

09-06-2013, 04:50 AM

It wasn't even the biggest choke job of the series. In fact, it wasn't even the SECOND biggest choke job of the series.

In the crucial game 4 (L.A. had a chance to go up 3-1), Wilt scored a total of 8 points, went 2/11 from the line, and the Lakers lost by ONE point. Sure, Baylor was anemically bad (5 points on 2/14 shooting), but one would have to be exceedingly blind and desperate to prop Wilt up by tearing down Baylor, who was in the midst of the worst 3 game stretch any 'star player' has ever had in the post season.

And, worst of all, in the close-out game 6, in a game in which Wilt KNEW that Jerry West was hurt (with a heavily bandaged left leg from a hamstring injury) and that he'd have to step up offensively to compensate (Wilt after game 5: "Can we win without Jerry? No, I don't think so. If Jerry can't play, I guess I'll have to do more on offense. I have to be ready to play"), scored a grand total of ONE field goal on FIVE shot attempts!

Presumably, the repost from someone sycophantically obsessed about the greatness of one player would be "Wilt was lumbered with the worst coach in NBA history. If only Breda Kolff told Wilt to shoot more, if only he made it an explicit gameplan to revolve the offense around Wilt.." Never mind that Breda Kolff after the game said that "We got the ball into him at times but he didn't do anything with it", it makes you wonder, if Breda Kolff told Wilt to strip naked, squat down, and take a dump at midcourt, would Wilt have done it? Was Wilt a mindless coach obeying robot?

I have long maintained that Wilt's play in game six of that Finals was his worst effort. So what? He absolutely wiped the floor with Russell in game five...a resounding win. BTW, West took 19 shots and Baylor took 18 shots in that game six, with West playing 39 minutes.

Biggest "choke job" of that series was definitely not Chamberlain in that game three loss. First of all, Wilt pulled down 31 rebounds in that game (Baylor had 10.). Secondly, while he went 2-11 from the line, Baylor who shot just 2-14 from the field...also went 1-5 from the line (I see you ignored that.) In one point loss.

And you ignored the game three, six point loss, when Wilt was the ONLY Laker to play well (16 points and 26 rebounds.) Baylor, as he did throughout the entire series, again shot horribly, going 4-18. But how about West? 9-24! AND, in the ast quarter of that game, West and Baylor COMBINED to shoot 1-14 from the field. Of course, you conveniently forgot to provide us with that, didn't you?

Just as you failed to point out that in game SEVEN, while Wilt shot .875 from the field, his teammates (including West) combined to shoot .360 from the floor, in a TWO point loss. Or that Russell was nowhere to be found in the 4th quarter of that game, and in fact, was just slapped silly by Wilt in the entire game.

Finally, while you blame Wilt, who only played poorly in one loss, you skip over the fact that Chamberlain, as ALWAYS, easily outplayed RUSSELL in that series. Outscored, outrebounded, and heavily outshot him from the field. I love the Russell supporters like tomention how Russell "held" Wilt down, but they never acknowledge that Chamberlain reduced Russell's FG%'s to a FAR greater extent in their playoff H2H's, than what Russell did to Wilt's. Wilt shot over the league average, and by huge margins, in EVERY H2H series with Russell, while holding Russell to less than the league in average in nearly every series, and WAY below it in FOUR of their eight h2h's.

LAZERUSS

09-06-2013, 05:10 AM

What was Wilt's FT-FTA that game? I'm pretty sure its....

You always ignore FG%'s...obviously because players like Kobe and Bird shot so poorly in their post-seasons from the field. Of course, as any good mathematician would tell you... a FGA is worth twice that of a FTA.

So, let's use TS%'s in that game seven, shall we?

Jerry West... .552. Not bad...the post-season league average was .475. Elgin, "I'm going to shoot us down the drain in this series" Baylor.. .408. Your boy Counts, whom you would seem to prefer over Wilt... .321. Hell, let's throw the "clutch" Russell's numbers in that game into this mix, too, shall we... .333.

How about Chamberlain? Yep, the "choker"...all he could do was hang a .621 TS% in that last game (Even with a 4-13 FT-FTA.) All while grabbing 27 rebounds (and watching his team lose the game by two points while sitting on the bench in the last five minutes.)

Of course, Chamberlain's post-season TS% differentials (against league averages) were among the highest of all-time. But, as always, you conveniently forget to post that. But not only that, he was also reducing his opposing centers to WAY lower than their norms, as well. All while pounding the hell out of them on the glass.

Psileas

09-06-2013, 08:18 AM

Open request to anyone: Post Wilt's worst playoff game(s) in terms of having been outplayed by the most teammates possible.

LAZERUSS

09-06-2013, 08:29 AM

Once again, and back to OP...

How many other "greats", had teammates who collectively played this poorly, year-after-year...

'60 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .380 from the field. Lose game six of EDF's.

'61 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .332 from the field. Lose in 1st round.

'62 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .354 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'64 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .383 from the field. Lose in game five of Finals.

'65 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .413 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'66 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .352 from the field. Lose in game five of EDF's.

'67 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .428 from the field. Wins Title

'68 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .416 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'69 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .421 from the field. Lose gaeme seven of Finals.

'70 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .469 from the field. Lose game seven of Finals.

'71 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .446 from the field. Lose game five of WCF's.

'72 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .414 from the field. Wins Title.

'73 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .446 from the field. Lose game five of Finals.

And who had "HOF" teammates who provided these great performances...

Playoff FG%'s...

'60 Arizin .431 Gola .412
'61 Arizin .325 Gola .206
'62 Arizin .375 Gola .271
'63 Gola...played 21 games and was shipped out
'64 Thurmond .438
'65 Thurmond (?)...half the season. Greer .455 Walker .480
'66 Greer .352 Cunningham .161 Walker .375
'67 Greer .429 Walker .467 Cunningham .376
'68 Greer .432 Walker .410 Cunningham broke wrist in first round (played 3 games)
'69 West .469 Baylor .385
'70 West .469 Baylor .466
'71 West and Baylor...both injured and do not play in playoffs. Goodrich .425
'72 Baylor retires after 9 nine games. West .376. Goodrich .445
'73 West .449 Goodrch .448

'62 Meschery was NOT an all-star. Shoots .397 in playoffs.
'63 Meschery (* All Star. Played 64 games. 16 ppg .425 FG% during season.)
'63 Rodgers (shoots .387 in regular season.
'64 Rodgers .329 in post-season.
'65 Jackson .338 in playoffs.

And yet,Chamberlain not only won two rings, he had game seven's against the eventual champions, FIVE more times...including losses in FOUR of them by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points.

oolalaa

09-06-2013, 10:03 AM

BTW, West took 19 shots and Baylor took 18 shots in that game six

Comfortably the fewest number shots of the entire series for West. He clearly lacked explosiveness and stamina.

And, of course, no mention of Baylors box score - 26/10 on 50% shooting and 8/10 from the line.

Biggest "choke job" of that series was definitely not Chamberlain in that game four loss. First of all, Wilt pulled down 31 rebounds in that game (Baylor had 10.). Secondly, while he went 2-11 from the line, Baylor who shot just 2-14 from the field...also went 1-5 from the line (I see you ignored that.)

It was CHAMBERLAIN'S second biggest choke job of the series. Offensively, Wilt was pathetic in that game. It wasn't just his scoring (3/8 from the floor), he only managed to rack up a grand total of ONE assist! And once again, you feel the need to tear down the anemic Baylor to prop up the less anemic Wilt.

And lmfao at you saying "I see you ignored that" regarding Baylor's FTs. I said he was "anemically bad" and I listed the main reason why: his terrible shooting from the floor. Why would I mention his FTs if 1) He only took 5 of them, 2) He converted 'them' at a more efficient rate that Wilt!!

And you ignored the game three, six point loss, when Wilt was the ONLY Laker to play well (16 points and 26 rebounds.) Baylor, as he did throughout the entire series, again shot horribly, going 4-18. But how about West? 9-24! AND, in the ast quarter of that game, West and Baylor COMBINED to shoot 1-14 from the field. Of course, you conveniently forgot to provide us with that, didn't you?

Of course, what YOU wouldn't ever DARE mention is game number 2, where Wilt, once again, was absolutely PATHETIC. So pathetic, that THIS game would have been Wilt's biggest choke job of the series had he not been resoundly carried by both West AND Baylor (and Johnny Egan, who had 26 points). It was, in fact his WORST game.

West - 41/3/8 (12/22, 17/20)
Baylor - 32/10/5 (11/15, 10/12)
Wilt - 4/19/4 (1/6, 2/4)
Russ - 9/21/13 (4/7, 1/5)

4 points on 1/6 shooting, 4 assists, outrebounded by Russell.

Baylor, on the other hand, scored 18 points in the 4th Q. He scored the Lakers last 12 points (10 of them in the final 2 and a half minutes), including 4 crucial FTs in the final 42 seconds when the game was tied.

Did you just forget to provide us with that?

Finally, while you blame Wilt, who only played poorly in one loss

You're a LIAR. As demonstrated, Wilt clearly played poorly in TWO losses, and his worst game in the series was fortunate enough to occur in a close Laker win, in which he got his abominably anemic ass carried as badly as Wilt was EVER carried in his career.

you skip over the fact that Chamberlain, as ALWAYS, easily outplayed RUSSELL in that series.

Skip over the fact that Wilt "outplayed" a 35 year old Russell, who was running on fumes in his LAST EVER SERIES? Wilt's "outplaying" of the offensively inept Russell consisted of 2.6 more points per game on better efficieny, 3.9 extra rebounds per game, and 2.1 LESS assists per game. That's it. That's all 32 year old Wilt, a year after a dominant MVP campaign, could muster. PATHETIC.

oolalaa

09-06-2013, 10:16 AM

That is what I find so laughable about it, every time Wilt was didn't show up his beloved fans blamed others instead. I still recall Jlauber's excuses and how he wrote essay after essay about Baylor's shortcomings just to take the focus away from Wilt. There are excuses for every single failure of Wilt's career.

He lost because of his teammates, he scored less because of his coaches, he missed FT's but it didn't matter because he made more FT's in total compared to others who shot with much higher FG%. His FG% and scoring went down in the playoffs because of his coaches and the list goes on.

My personal favourite is the one about all his phantom injuries that people excuse him for and how he "barely could walk" while he in fact averaged 48 minutes per game on the court..

Hey, It was the coach's fault.

The excuses never ends, everything from bad teammates, choking teammates, "injuries", horrible coaches and the list goes on. I've never seen so many excuses regarding one player's failure to become a champion.

Excuses are for losers. JLauber knows this, yet makes excuses for Wilt anyhow. He essentially makes excuses about how Wilt should be excused from having to conform to 'excuses are for losers'. Ergo JLauber and Wilt are both losers :oldlol:

LAZERUSS

09-06-2013, 09:55 PM

Comfortably the fewest number shots of the entire series for West. He clearly lacked explosiveness and stamina.

And, of course, no mention of Baylors box score - 26/10 on 50% shooting and 8/10 from the line.

So, when Baylor plays ONE quality game, out of FIVE, you praise him. As for West, you will excuse him when he's injured, but not Chamberlain. Way to go. Typical Wilt-basher.

It was CHAMBERLAIN'S second biggest choke job of the series. Offensively, Wilt was pathetic in that game. It wasn't just his scoring (3/8 from the floor), he only managed to rack up a grand total of ONE assist! And once again, you feel the need to tear down the anemic Baylor to prop up the less anemic Wilt.

And lmfao at you saying "I see you ignored that" regarding Baylor's FTs. I said he was "anemically bad" and I listed the main reason why: his terrible shooting from the floor. Why would I mention his FTs if 1) He only took 5 of them, 2) He converted 'them' at a more efficient rate that Wilt!!

In that game four, in which Chamberlain shot 3/8, 2/11, and had 31 rebounds. Yep, pretty bad game for Chamberlain. Of course, how did Mr. "I can't hit a shot for my life" Russell do in that same game? Oh wait, 2/12, 2/4, 29 rebounds, and by god, he outassisted Wilt by a 2-1 margin.

Again, a typical Wilt-bashing comment. The thing is, that was really one of MANY games in their 143 h2h's in which Russell played like that. The uneducated, like yourself, never bring up that fact that in those 143 h2h games, it wasn't just Wilt crushing Russell in scoring and rebounding, which he did by staggering margins. He was also outshooting Russell, on average, by a .500 to less than .400 margin.

So, when Wilt plays a poor offensive game (and yet dominates in every other aspect) he gets trashed. And when Russell ROUTINELY put up games like that against Chamberlain...well, his defense was the difference (NO it wasn't...take a look at the OP...Russell played with FAR better personnel, and that personnel FAR outplayed Wilt's.)

Of course, what YOU wouldn't ever DARE mention is game number 2, where Wilt, once again, was absolutely PATHETIC. So pathetic, that THIS game would have been Wilt's biggest choke job of the series had he not been resoundly carried by both West AND Baylor (and Johnny Egan, who had 26 points). It was, in fact his WORST game.

West - 41/3/8 (12/22, 17/20)
Baylor - 32/10/5 (11/15, 10/12)
Wilt - 4/19/4 (1/6, 2/4)
Russ - 9/21/13 (4/7, 1/5)

4 points on 1/6 shooting, 4 assists, outrebounded by Russell.

Baylor, on the other hand, scored 18 points in the 4th Q. He scored the Lakers last 12 points (10 of them in the final 2 and a half minutes), including 4 crucial FTs in the final 42 seconds when the game was tied.

Did you just forget to provide us with that?

Again, Chamberlain played poorly in ONE loss. To claim that a 31 rebound perfomance, in a game in which he still outplayed Russell offensively, is NOT a poor game. A POOR game was a "HOF" player shooting 2/14 (hmmm, Russell-type numbers), 1/5, and 10 rebounds.

Of course, in the last five games of that series, and four losses, Mr. Baylor shot a combined 27/85, or .317 from the floor. What is even more tragic, is that, as I have provided in the OP...that was just one of SEVERAL post-season series in which Chamberlain was saddled with such a "HOF" performance by a teammate.

And once again, you cite a 4th period by Baylor in which he played well. How about he and West in that game three, six point loss? 1/14! In a game in which Chamberlain easily outplayed Russell in every facet of the game (just one of about 40 games in their 49 playoff h2h's BTW.)

You're a LIAR. As demonstrated, Wilt clearly played poorly in TWO losses, and his worst game in the series was fortunate enough to occur in a close Laker win, in which he got his abominably anemic ass carried as badly as Wilt was EVER carried in his career.

No, you are the LIAR! Here again, Wilt grabbed 31 rebounds, and single-handedly(as he always did) shut down the lane (Boston had 89 points in a win BTW.) Of course, if you are going to claim that a poorly played game...a), Russell, as always, played considerably worse, and b) Russell had MANY games like that against Wilt in his career.

Again, Chamberlain played poorly in ONE loss. Hell, West played poorly in game six, and was simply awful in game three (9-24 shooting, and he and Baylor clearly cost LA that game.) So, the reality was, even "Mr. Clutch" had more bad games in that series.

And, as for the game two win...yes, Russell outplayed Wilt. And he outplayed Chamberlain in game six. How about the rest of the series? Wilt beat Russell's ass into the ground. And this from a SHACKLED Wilt, whose incompetent coach had him playing the high post...and even worse...was not smart enough to have Wilt's teammates PASS him the ball. Oh, and the same coach who had Johnny Egan handling the ball in the waning seconds of that game four, one point loss, when LA had the ball, and the lead. Where was West? Nope, Egan, who "replaced" both Archie Clark's and Gail Goodrich's off-season losses (throw in Imhoff, and that Wilt deal effectively cost LA 42 ppg and 18 rpg BTW)...lost the ball, and Sam Jones, while falling down, hit a buzzer beater to win the game.

As a sidenote...when West missed 31 games in the 67-68 season, how did LA do in his absence? They went 19-12. How? Goodrich and Clark...that's how. Both gone, and replaced by Egan. Oh, and West again missed 21 games in the '69 season...and guess what, LA went 12-9 in his absence. I get a kick out of those that claim that the Wilt trade made very little difference. Here again, Chamberlain's loss to the Sixers resulted in not only a drop of seven games, but even with his replacements averaging a combined 36 ppg, 20 rpg, and shooting .510 in the first round of the playoffs...the Sixers were still shelled. And yet, just the year before, Chamberlain with HALF of his key players injured (as well as he, himself, suffering from a similar injury to what Reed sustained in the '70 Finals) and they still lost a game seven in the EDF's, by FOUR points. What a HUGE difference in IMPACT.

Skip over the fact that Wilt "outplayed" a 35 year old Russell, who was running on fumes in his LAST EVER SERIES? Wilt's "outplaying" of the offensively inept Russell consisted of 2.6 more points per game on better efficieny, 3.9 extra rebounds per game, and 2.1 LESS assists per game. That's it. That's all 32 year old Wilt, a year after a dominant MVP campaign, could muster. PATHETIC.

A shackled Wilt outscoring, outrebounding, outblocking (and by a huge margin..as always), and OUTSHOOTING Russell by a .500 to .397 margin (which, BTW, was aout their career h2h averages.) Oh, and Russell HIDING in the 4th quarter of game seven, and being beaten to a pulp by Wilt in his 43 minutes. Here again, where would Russell have been without his truly HOF teammates playing brilliantly (FAR more than Wilt's teammates), as well as his teammates making clutch play-after-clutch play, while Wilt's continually puked all over the floor (in that game seven, take away Wilt and Russell's FG%'s...and Boston outshot LA by a .477 to .360 margin.)

Just how the hell did Chamberlain take horrible rosters, with players who played considerably worse in the post-season, as well as injury-plagued in several, to two titles, and five game sevens against the eventual champions...four which were decided by a total of NINE points?

Swap rosters, and Russell probably wouldn't have ever made it past the first round of the playoffs (if he were even that lucky to get there) in his ten seasons in the league, while, as John Wooden said, it would have been Wilt winning all those rings.

As for the "excuses are for losers" comment...I'm sure you offended Millwad, whose beloved Hakeem was the "king of the first round exit"....EIGHT TIMES in 15 playoff series (and most were one-sided romps as well) in 18 seasons. Talk about a "loser."

Deuce Bigalow

09-06-2013, 10:20 PM

Swap rosters, and Russell probably wouldn't have ever made it past the first round of the playoffs (if he were even that lucky to get there) in his ten seasons in the league, while, as John Wooden said, it would have been Wilt winning all those rings.

As for the "excuses are for losers" comment...I'm sure you offended Millwad, whose beloved Hakeem was the "king of the first round exit"....EIGHT TIMES in 15 playoff series (and most were one-sided romps as well) in 18 seasons. Talk about a "loser."
Lol. Give any great center- Kareem, Shaq, Russell, Hakeem, Moses, ect Jerry West in 69 and 70 along with the rest of the Lakers roster and they easily win back to back rings.

"Loser" Hakeem still ended up with 2 rings, a better finals record, and a better record with HCA while having much worse supporting casts throughout his career than Wilt. Ouch.

LAZERUSS

09-06-2013, 10:35 PM

Lol. Give any great center- Kareem, Shaq, Russell, Hakeem, Moses, ect Jerry West in 69 and 70 along with the rest of the Lakers roster and they easily win back to back rings.

"Loser" Hakeem still ended up with 2 rings, a better finals record, and a better record with HCA while having much worse supporting casts throughout his career than Wilt.

Hakeem's "supporting cast" played much better than Wilt's. AND, he NEVER faced an AVERAGE of FIVE HOFers in his playoffs. Hell, in '94, he never faced a team with more talent, and in fact, barely beat a worse Knicks team. Oh, and where was MJ that season? Do you HONESTLY believe that the 55-27 Bulls, who barely a lost a close game seven to the Knicks, who barely lost a close game seven to Hakeem's Rockets, would have lost WITH MJ? C'mon! That Bulls team would have waltzed to a title. And, scratch one ring from Hakeem's rsume.

Oh, and how about Hakeem's teammates in his '95 Finals? While Hakeem shot an eFG% of .487 from the field in that series, his teammates shot an eye-popping .546 eFG%! Yes .546. Oh, and how about true TS%'s? Hakeem had a .508 TS% (Shaq's was .589 BTW), and how about his teammates? You won't believe this, but....595! (Yes a TS% of .595.) Hakeem shot way less than the post-season average, while allowing Shaq to post a HUGE number, and his teammates just wiped the floors with Shaq's. Had Shaq's teammates even played normally, Shaq would have won his first ring, and Hakeem would have been ringless.

Oh, and I challenge you to find ONE post-season series, in Wilt's career, in which his teammates collectively shot an eFG% of .546, or a true TS% of .595. ONE. Please.

EIGHT FIRST ROUND EXITS IN 15 POST-SEASONS, and the vast majority of those were ROUTS.

Hakeem "THE LOSER." The Hakeem who won ONE MVP (and again, MJ was playing baseball), and had ONE other 2nd place finish in the MVP balloting. FOUR times in the Top-4! And only 10 times, in 18 seasons, even considered a Top_TEN candidate.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

And Kareem winning with West? In the Wilt-era, and against Boston? You are an idiot. Kareem couldn't win three years with Oscar. Nor could Kareem win a title from '74 thru '79 with the weakest champions in NBA history. Hell, Barry, with rookie Wilkes, and a cast of no-names, and a 48-34 team, won a title. Kareem, with a seasoned Wilkes, as well as Norm Nixon, Lou Hudson, and high-scoring Adrian Dantley (who was averaging 27 ppg when they got him) were WIPED out TWO years in a row by a Sonics team with ONE borderline HOF player (Dennis Johnson.)

I say...give Wilt a prime Magic for 10 seaons, and he goes 10-10 in rings.

Deuce Bigalow

09-06-2013, 10:49 PM

Deuce Bigalow

09-06-2013, 10:53 PM

I say...give Wilt a prime Magic for 10 seaons, and he goes 10-10 in rings.
Wilt played with prime Jerry West and lost every single year with him in his prime. West was the league's best player in 69 and 70 and Wilt failed to win. West had a 38 PPG Finals series and Wilt still lost :oldlol:

Horatio33

09-07-2013, 12:35 AM

Hakeem wasn't Wilt, who was the STRONGEST, MOST ATHLETIC player ever, with GREAT ENDURANCE! Yet he won the same amount of titles with one player who is a half of famer, who he played with from for half a season.

Also if you're laughing at Hakeem for winning titles while MJ was retired, Wilt won one while his great nemesis was retired. You might know the guy , #6, played for Boston. COACHED his team to TWO titles, knocking Wilt out of the playoffs both times.

julizaver

09-07-2013, 03:27 AM

LAZERUSS

09-07-2013, 02:32 PM

69' game 7 loss hurt Wilt's legacy the most. And it is because Lakers were considered favourites to win the title.
Imagine Ray Allen failed to convert the three in Game 6 ...

The '69 Finals were easily the worst Wilt's playoff series of his career. But I have read posters ripping him for "losing" in '68 and '70, as well...which are completely unjustified.

Having said that...

In the '69 Finals, Wilt easily the Lakers second best player (in the worst series of his career.) To be honest, aside from West and Chamberlain, the rest of the Laker roster played horribly. On the flip side, Russell's teamates clearly played much better, man-for-man, in that series. Hell, he had Em Bryant scoring 20 points in a game seven forcryingoutloud. And he still easily outplayed Russell (and this series was, by far, the best Russell ever played against Wilt.)

Then think about these factors...

1. A complete boob for a coach. A coach who was proud of shackling Chamberlain. A coach, who in a game seven, benched the most dominant player in the history of the game in the last five minutes of a two point loss. A coach who could see that Russell, with five fouls, was no match for Wilt in the 4th quarter of that game seven, but instead road the worst shooting of Baylor's career right into the toilet. And a coach who, at the key moment in the entire series, put the ball into Johnny Egan's hands, which of course, blew up in his face.

2. Egan? Had Egan not lost the ball in the waning seconds of game four, the Lakers, who had the lead, and the ball, would have won that game, and gone up 3-1. That coupled with a game five romp in which Chamberlain just terrorized the Celtics...and LA wins that series going away, 4-1.

3. Once again...Baylor. In the last five games of the series, Baylor shot a combined .317 from the floor. He was just awful in three close losses. Those who rip Wilt for his poor FT shooting, had better realize that Baylor, who shot 2-14 from the field in that game four, one point loss, also shot 1-5 from the line. Oh, and he and West combined to shoot 1-14 from the field in the 4th quarter of game three of the series...a 111-105 loss.

4. Boston hit TWO miracle game-winning shots in that series.

5. Take Chamberlain and Russell's FG%'s out of that game seven, two point loss, and Boston outshot the Lakers from field by a .477 to .360 margin. And yet, with that horrendous shooting, the Lakers nearly won the game.

The bottom line is, while it was Chamberlain's worst play of his entire post-season career, he still was a major factor, and his under-achieving team, with a joke for a coach, and with Boston's huge edge in depth, ...still only lost a game seven, by two points.

Once again, Wilt was a play away from yet another ring. One of SEVERAL that he could have won. But, as always, the Wilt-bashers just blame Wilt.

Deuce Bigalow

09-07-2013, 03:42 PM

The '69 Finals were easily the worst Wilt's playoff series of his career. But I have read posters ripping him for "losing" in '68 and '70, as well...which are completely unjustified.

Having said that...

In the '69 Finals, Wilt easily the Lakers second best player (in the worst series of his career.) To be honest, aside from West and Chamberlain, the rest of the Laker roster played horribly. On the flip side, Russell's teamates clearly played much better, man-for-man, in that series. Hell, he had Em Bryant scoring 20 points in a game seven forcryingoutloud. And he still easily outplayed Russell (and this series was, by far, the best Russell ever played against Wilt.)

Then think about these factors...

1. A complete boob for a coach. A coach who was proud of shackling Chamberlain. A coach, who in a game seven, benched the most dominant player in the history of the game in the last five minutes of a two point loss. A coach who could see that Russell, with five fouls, was no match for Wilt in the 4th quarter of that game seven, but instead road the worst shooting of Baylor's career right into the toilet. And a coach who, at the key moment in the entire series, put the ball into Johnny Egan's hands, which of course, blew up in his face.

2. Egan? Had Egan not lost the ball in the waning seconds of game four, the Lakers, who had the lead, and the ball, would have won that game, and gone up 3-1. That coupled with a game five romp in which Chamberlain just terrorized the Celtics...and LA wins that series going away, 4-1.

3. Once again...Baylor. In the last five games of the series, Baylor shot a combined .317 from the floor. He was just awful in three close losses. Those who rip Wilt for his poor FT shooting, had better realize that Baylor, who shot 2-14 from the field in that game four, one point loss, also shot 1-5 from the line. Oh, and he and West combined to shoot 1-14 from the field in the 4th quarter of game three of the series...a 111-105 loss.

4. Boston hit TWO miracle game-winning shots in that series.

5. Take Chamberlain and Russell's FG%'s out of that game seven, two point loss, and Boston outshot the Lakers from field by a .477 to .360 margin. And yet, with that horrendous shooting, the Lakers nearly won the game.

The bottom line is, while it was Chamberlain's worst play of his entire post-season career, he still was a major factor, and his under-achieving team, with a joke for a coach, and with Boston's huge edge in depth, ...still only lost a game seven, by two points.

Once again, Wilt was a play away from yet another ring. One of SEVERAL that he could have won. But, as always, the Wilt-bashers just blame Wilt.
Oh poor Wilt. He was so unlucky. Boston hits miricale shots. Wilt's coach sucks. His teammates suck. He was so close to a ring so many times!

Like another poster already mentioned, Wilt shot 2-11 from the line in that game 4. Wilt made his own luck, quit bullshitting. West had 40 in that game and was 10-10 from the line. Bbbbb but Wilt gets no help! :oldlol:

LAZERUSS

09-07-2013, 05:13 PM

Oh poor Wilt. He was so unlucky. Boston hits miricale shots. Wilt's coach sucks. His teammates suck. He was so close to a ring so many times!

Like another poster already mentioned, Wilt shot 2-11 from the line in that game 4. Wilt made his own luck, quit bullshitting. West had 40 in that game and was 10-10 from the line. Bbbbb but Wilt gets no help! :oldlol:

How about the OP?

'60 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .380 from the field. Lose game six of EDF's.

'61 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .332 from the field. Lose in 1st round.

'62 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .354 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'64 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .383 from the field. Lose in game five of Finals.

'65 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .413 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'66 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .352 from the field. Lose in game five of EDF's.

'67 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .428 from the field. Wins Title

'68 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .416 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'69 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .421 from the field. Lose gaeme seven of Finals.

'70 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .469 from the field. Lose game seven of Finals.

'71 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .446 from the field. Lose game five of WCF's.

'72 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .414 from the field. Wins Title.

'73 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .446 from the field. Lose game five of Finals.

And who had "HOF" teammates who provided these great performances...

Quote:
Playoff FG%'s...

'60 Arizin .431 Gola .412
'61 Arizin .325 Gola .206
'62 Arizin .375 Gola .271
'63 Gola...played 21 games and was shipped out
'64 Thurmond .438
'65 Thurmond (?)...half the season. Greer .455 Walker .480
'66 Greer .352 Cunningham .161 Walker .375
'67 Greer .429 Walker .467 Cunningham .376
'68 Greer .432 Walker .410 Cunningham broke wrist in first round (played 3 games)
'69 West .469 Baylor .385
'70 West .469 Baylor .466
'71 West and Baylor...both injured and do not play in playoffs. Goodrich .425
'72 Baylor retires after 9 nine games. West .376. Goodrich .445
'73 West .449 Goodrch .448

'62 Meschery was NOT an all-star. Shoots .397 in playoffs.
'63 Meschery (* All Star. Played 64 games. 16 ppg .425 FG% during season.)
'63 Rodgers (shoots .387 in regular season.
'64 Rodgers .329 in post-season.
'65 Jackson .338 in playoffs.

LAZERUSS

09-07-2013, 05:20 PM

Deuce Bigalow

09-07-2013, 06:48 PM

How about the OP?
Playoff stats

1967
Greer: 28-6-5 / 49 TS% (Higher PPG than Wilt)
Walker: 22-8-2 / 55 TS% (Higher PPG than WIlt, same TS% as Wilt)
Jones: 18-2-4 / 49 TS%

1968
Greer: 26-6-4 / 51 TS% (Higher PPG, TS% than Wilt)
Cunningham: 21-7-3 / 61 TS% (Higher TS% than Wilt)
Walker: 19-7-2 / 48 TS%

1969
West: 31-4-8 / 54 TS% (Higher PPG, APG, TS% than Wilt)

1970
West: 31-4-8 / 55 TS% (Higher PPG, APG, TS% than Wilt)
Baylor: 19-10-5 / 51 TS%

How about you post TS% of those teammates?

fpliii

09-07-2013, 06:53 PM

millwad

09-07-2013, 07:17 PM

Hakeem's "supporting cast" played much better than Wilt's. AND, he NEVER faced an AVERAGE of FIVE HOFers in his playoffs. Hell, in '94, he never faced a team with more talent, and in fact, barely beat a worse Knicks team. Oh, and where was MJ that season? Do you HONESTLY believe that the 55-27 Bulls, who barely a lost a close game seven to the Knicks, who barely lost a close game seven to Hakeem's Rockets, would have lost WITH MJ? C'mon! That Bulls team would have waltzed to a title. And, scratch one ring from Hakeem's rsume.

Haha, this is such a laughable claim, it's not even fun no more because you obviously never saw any games from those years.

First of all, it's pure bogus and Wilt had crazy much more help compared to Wilt during his back to backs. In '94 Olajuwon's second best scoring teammate was Maxwell who averaged 13.8 points on 37% shooting and in the finals against Knicks he averaged 13.4 points on 36% shooting.

To claim that Hakeem had more help than Ewing only proves how crazy biased, uneducated and stupid you are. Ewing's 2nd best scorer in the finals was Starks who slighty shot the ball with better efficiency than Maxwell while scoring more points per game. Then he had freaking Derek Harper who was nothing but great during the finals and he averaged 16.4 points on 46% shooting. He completely destroyed Kenny Smith. And then Ewing had Oakley who averaged a double double and Charles Smith.

Olajuwon outplayed Ewing big time as well, he held Ewing to a pathetic 18.9 point per game average on .363% shooting. So while you whined about Starks FG% you forgot to mention that he shot the ball better than Ewing and Hakeem's second best player, Maxwell.

Total fail.

Oh, and how about Hakeem's teammates in his '95 Finals? While Hakeem shot an eFG% of .487 from the field in that series, his teammates shot an eye-popping .546 eFG%! Yes .546. Oh, and how about true TS%'s? Hakeem had a .508 TS% (Shaq's was .589 BTW), and how about his teammates? You won't believe this, but....595! (Yes a TS% of .595.) Hakeem shot way less than the post-season average, while allowing Shaq to post a HUGE number, and his teammates just wiped the floors with Shaq's. Had Shaq's teammates even played normally, Shaq would have won his first ring, and Hakeem would have been ringless.

Obviously you never saw that series, just as didn't see the '94 finals. It's really funny, you never mention the fact that Shaq had the most turnovers in a 4 game series by a center and that he was a turnover machine. You also never mention the fact that Shaq clearly got outplayed in 2 out of 4 games and that Shaq only got the best of Hakeem in one game.

And what's even more pathetic, you try to use FG% to prop up Shaq but you fail so badly. Why don't you use the same logic when it comes to the '72 series between Kareem and Wilt? The same series where Kareem outscored Wilt with 23 points per game, shot with a better FG%, while outassisting Wilt and shooting FT's twice as good? This is just the biggest proof of you being a lame hypocrite.

You have that '72 series and you have the '95 finals and you judge them completely differently because it fits your agenda. Your proof of Wilt outplaying Kareem is an article by Bob Wolf, a writer I couldn't find anything about who describes the last two games and that is your proof of what happened but you deny every single report about Hakeem outplaying Shaq.

You're a clown.

Oh, and I challenge you to find ONE post-season series, in Wilt's career, in which his teammates collectively shot an eFG% of .546, or a true TS% of .595. ONE. Please.

This is such a lame and bogus argument. You are well aware of the fact that they shot with a lower efficiency back in the days. Perfect example of you being a clown.

EIGHT FIRST ROUND EXITS IN 15 POST-SEASONS, and the vast majority of those were ROUTS.

You're a clown, Olajuwon played with MUCH worse teams and he was better in the playoffs compared to the Wilt who shrunk big time in the playoffs. Wilt played in a much worse era with much fewer teams. He was raped by Bill Russell over and over again. A Bill Russell who barely could score.. :facepalm

And what's funny is that Olajuwon has the highest scoring point per game average among centers in NBA history, Wilt on the other had shrunk and shot the ball with worse FG% compared to Olajuwon and he also scored less. But hey, Wilt and the playoffs is a pretty shitty combo.

Hakeem "THE LOSER." The Hakeem who won ONE MVP (and again, MJ was playing baseball), and had ONE other 2nd place finish in the MVP balloting. FOUR times in the Top-4! And only 10 times, in 18 seasons, even considered a Top_TEN candidate.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

The 80's and the 90's was by far more superior era's compared to Wilt's weak one. The same era where Wilt was known as the biggest loser. So it's funny, you try to label Hakeem as a loser when being a loser was the label Wilt had.. :facepalm

And Kareem winning with West? In the Wilt-era, and against Boston? You are an idiot. Kareem couldn't win three years with Oscar. Nor could Kareem win a title from '74 thru '79 with the weakest champions in NBA history. Hell, Barry, with rookie Wilkes, and a cast of no-names, and a 48-34 team, won a title. Kareem, with a seasoned Wilkes, as well as Norm Nixon, Lou Hudson, and high-scoring Adrian Dantley (who was averaging 27 ppg when they got him) were WIPED out TWO years in a row by a Sonics team with ONE borderline HOF player (Dennis Johnson.)

Your mother is an idiot.

Kareem won with Oscar and he absolutely destroyed Wilt in '72 who had the luxury to be backed up by West and the boys. It was West and the boys who gave Wilt his 2nd ring in '72, without having much better teammates Wilt would have lost that series against Kareem so badly.

Wilt's teammates where the one's who had to do the scoring in the first 4 games while Wilt was getting crushed, abused and slaughtered. Wilt's teammates carried him through the abuse of being outscored with 23 points per game, outassisted and outperformed in terms of FG% and FT%.

I say...give Wilt a prime Magic for 10 seaons, and he goes 10-10 in rings.

Haha, Wilt, the biggest playoff choker of all-time would suddenly win 10 rings with Magic. Keep dreaming, you clown.

millwad

09-07-2013, 07:20 PM

OT - I'm actually not 100% sure if LAZERUSS is jlauber now. From the start I thought it was his new username, but there are some key differences in his posting style. Maybe I'm just spending too much time on this site...

It's definitely him, his hatred for Hakeem is just getting more amusing for every day that goes by.

He wasn't even a hater in the beginning but when people realized that Olajuwon was the better player and when they got to know about Wilt's short comings in the playoffs, Jlauber got crazy insecure.

Jlauber is definitely Lazeruss, he's using all his old copy and paste stuff from Google and use the same arguments.

And he's still doing what he's most famous for, writing long non-relevant essays about random cherry picked stats while bashing Wilt's teammates for Wilt's own short comings.

millwad

09-07-2013, 07:24 PM

Damned if he did, and damned if he didn't.

When Chamberlain was putting up 30+ ppg post-seasons, and losing game seven's by 1-2 points, against teams that were better, players thru 2-7...it was HIS fault.

When he cut back his scoring, and played a more balance game, and his teams won a title. Look at all the help he had!

When he continued to play the "balanced" Wilt...and his team's lost in game seven's by two points...why didn't Wilt score more?

Wilt only averaged 30 points or more in the playoffs in his first 4 years in the league and in 3 out of those 4 years he was making less than 50% of his field goal attempts.

He dropped big time in terms of scoring and FG%.

Especially in the finals where he over 6 series and years only averaged; 18.5 points per game on 55% shooting while only making 38% of his FT-attempts.

millwad

09-07-2013, 07:25 PM

julizaver

09-08-2013, 04:26 AM

Wilt only averaged 30 points or more in the playoffs in his first 4 years in the league and in 3 out of those 4 years he was making less than 50% of his field goal attempts.

He dropped big time in terms of scoring and FG%.

Especially in the finals where he over 6 series and years only averaged; 18.5 points per game on 55% shooting while only making 38% of his FT-attempts.

'69 series against Celtics are bad for Wilt's standards. In the other finals series he played OK.

LAZERUSS

09-08-2013, 10:23 AM

Playoff stats

1967
Greer: 28-6-5 / 49 TS% (Higher PPG than Wilt)
Walker: 22-8-2 / 55 TS% (Higher PPG than WIlt, same TS% as Wilt)
Jones: 18-2-4 / 49 TS%

1968
Greer: 26-6-4 / 51 TS% (Higher PPG, TS% than Wilt)
Cunningham: 21-7-3 / 61 TS% (Higher TS% than Wilt)
Walker: 19-7-2 / 48 TS%

1969
West: 31-4-8 / 54 TS% (Higher PPG, APG, TS% than Wilt)

1970
West: 31-4-8 / 55 TS% (Higher PPG, APG, TS% than Wilt)
Baylor: 19-10-5 / 51 TS%

How about you post TS% of those teammates?

Nice try with Cunningham, but you KNEW I would catch you on that didn't you?

In the '68 playoffs, Cunningham played a TOTAL of THREE games, out of the 13 that Philly played. And, of course, he didn't play at all in the EDF's...when the Sixers lost in seven games to the Celtics.

Oh, and BTW, the Sixers were still up 3-1. However, Luke Jackson and Wali Jones were injured in game five of that series and with Philly trailing by 2 points at the time, and were worthless the rest of the series. And of course, Wilt had several injuries in that post-season, including a tear in his calf, which was similar to the one that Reed suffered in game five of the '70 Finals, and yet, Chamberlain played every minute of the series, despite the fact that he was NOTICEABLY LIMPING throughout that series.

Oh, and in game seven of that '68 EDF's, Walker shot 8-22 from the field, and Greer shot 8-25. In a FOUR pont loss. And before you blame Wilt...he touched the ball a total of NINE times in the entire second half, and only TWICE in the 4th quarter (and both of those were on offensive rebounds.)

And for those complete idiots that claim that Wilt played in a "weak era"...how about Kareem?

In the four seasons a PEAK Kareem played in the "Wilt-era" he had a post-season true TS% of .509, in league's that averaged .487 (Wilt was at .515 in that same span BTW.) And how about Kareem with a true TS% of .458 in the '72 playoffs, and .441 in '73 post-season? Or his eFG%'s of .437 and .428 in those same post-seasons? Yep, "weak era" alright.

And I won't waste my time getting a true TS% for KAJ in the 80's. I'll use his actual TS% (which is higher than a true TS%.) And I won't count his last two seasons, either, when he was 41 and 42 years old. In that decade of the 80's, Kareem shot ..587, in post-season leagues that averaged about .530.

Of course, in his 84-85 and 85-86 seasons, covering 10 straight games, and against the great defense of Hakeem,a 37-38 year old KAJ averaged 32.0 ppg on a .621 FG%. And his true TS% in that span against Hakeem was .642! Kareem was outshooting the league averages by around 11-12%! And yet, a peak Kareem, in his four post-seasons in the "weak" Wilt-era, was barely able to shoot the league average in either eFG% or true TS%. You can see the huge differences between the "defenseless 80's" and the hard-nosed defenses that the late 60's and early 70's. Clearly, players like Wilt and Thurmond were FAR greater defensive players than ANYONE in the 80's.

One can only imagine what kind of numbers a prime Chamberlain, playing in league's with eFG%'s of .500, instead of the .430 that he did play in, would have destroyed the league with.

And since you didn't acknowledge Wilt's "help" in his first six post-seasons (and don't forget, his teammates were so awful in '63, that they didn't make the playoffs, in a season in which Chamberlain averaged 45 ppg and shot .528. The same teammates that Wit would lead to a 48-32 record the very next year BTW.)

Here we go:

All numbers are post-season including League

True TS%

59-60
409-1000 207-335
Wilt 125-252 49-110
Team 284-748 158-225
Wilt .487
Team .422
League .448

60-61
119-319 86-139
Wilt 45-96 21-38
Team 74-223 65-101
Wilt .483
Team .389
League .455

61-62
467-1210 339-473
Wilt 162-347 96-151
Team 305-863 243-322
Wilt .497
Team .417
League .462

63-64
503-1179 272-455
Wilt 123-232 66-139
Team 380-947 206-316
Wilt .517
Team .437
League .466

64-65
463-1056 304-433
Wilt 123-232 76-136
Team 340-824 228-297
Wilt .537
Team .467
League .478

65-66
194-502 132-203
Wilt 56-110 28-68
Team 138-392 104-135
Wilt .486
Team .414
League .488

See a pattern there? Wilt was outshooting the post-season league averages by huge margins, and his teammates were consistently shooting well under them.

As for Wilt's two title runs...

'66-67
Wilt .529
Team .478
League .468

'71-72
Wilt .542
Team .470
League .490

BTW, in Shaq's 2000 playoff run, he had a true TS% of .541, in a post-season that had a true TS% of .508. And in Hakeem's '95 title run, he had a true TS% of .551, in a post-season NBA that had a true TS% of .541 (and Hakeem's under-rated teammates collectively had a .577 TS% in that run, as well.) And, in their 95 Finals H2H, Shaq had an eFG% of .595 to Hakeem's .487, and a true TS% of .589 as compared to Hakeem's .508...in a post-season NBA that had a true TS% of .541 (and again, Hakeem's teammates really stepped up...with a combined true TS% of .595.) Clearly, had Shaq's teammates performed even remotely close to what Hakeem's did, Shaq would have won his first ring.

As for Chamberlain, even with his poor FT shooting, he was consistently well above the league TS%'s, and he just blew away their eFG%'s. Then, if you factor in just how sufficating Wilt's defense was on his opposing centers in those post-season runs, and he was light years above his peers. For example, using a true TS% (which is usually about .015 lower than the actual TS%), just in Wilt's six Finals, he had a true TS% of .513, in leagues that shot a true TS% of .478 in that span, and in the process, he held his opposing starting centers to a true TS% of .442!

LAZERUSS

09-08-2013, 12:31 PM

'69 series against Celtics are bad for Wilt's standards. In the other finals series he played OK.

Take out that '69 series (when Van Breda Kolff was the one containing Wilt), and his Finals numbers look like this...

20.3 ppg, 24.5 rpg, .554 eFG%, .384 FT%, .514 true TS%, in post-seasons that had an eFG% of .440, and a true TS% of .480.

A 20-25 .554 series, on average, in an NBA that shot .440. (And a certain 7+ bpg, and probably more like 8-9)

And with only one of those five series being in his scoring prime, and only two being in his prime.

Haks

09-08-2013, 10:15 PM

Sad seeing this destruction of jlauber
I used to think Wilt>Hakeem
but now its officially Hakeem>Wilt thanks guys for opening my eyes

CavaliersFTW

09-08-2013, 10:20 PM

Sad seeing this destruction of jlauber
I used to think Wilt>Hakeem
but now its officially Hakeem>Wilt thanks guys for opening my eyes
Lies. You've ALWAYS trolled about Wilt :oldlol:

LAZERUSS

09-08-2013, 10:23 PM

Sad seeing this destruction of jlauber
I used to think Wilt>Hakeem
but now its officially Hakeem>Wilt thanks guys for opening my eyes

Yep...a Hakeem that was seldom in the top-5 in MVP voting, and often not even in the Top-10...and a player who could lead his team to so many first round exits, and usually blowout losses...greater than a player who owns the Record Book, and was a far greater winner.

Chamberlain was an eyelash away from winning five more titles, while Hakeem was an eyelash away from being swept five times in the first round.

Helix

09-08-2013, 10:38 PM

Sad seeing this destruction of jlauber
I used to think Wilt>Hakeem
but now its officially Hakeem>Wilt thanks guys for opening my eyes

Hehe, I can't get over the ignorance of some posters. Comparing Hakeem to Wilt? Hakeem was a great center, but Chamberlain was a totally different level.

LAZERUSS

09-08-2013, 11:21 PM

Hehe, I can't get over the ignorance of some posters. Comparing Hakeem to Wilt? Hakeem was a great center, but Chamberlain was a totally different level.

Hakeem was the second best center of the 90's...but well behind Shaq.

And in the 80's, old guys like Kareem and Gilmore, well past their peaks, and into the '86 season, just abused him. And a more prime Moses surely would have too. Moses was clearly the better player thru '88.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=olajuha01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=malonmo01&p2=olajuha01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=gilmoar01&p2=olajuha01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=abdulka01&p2=olajuha01

millwad

09-09-2013, 01:46 AM

Hehe, I can't get over the ignorance of some posters. Comparing Hakeem to Wilt? Hakeem was a great center, but Chamberlain was a totally different level.

Pure nonsense.

During Wilt's statistical prime he faced mentally challenged offensive players like Russell and Thurmond, at least in terms of actually scoring which makes life easy.

And his playoff-runs are nothing but pathetic and his title runs are no where close Hakeem's back to backs. While Olajuwon dominated 3 out of the top 10 centers of all-time, Chamberlain was outscored with 23 points per game during his second run against Kareem.

millwad

09-09-2013, 01:50 AM

Hakeem was the second best center of the 90's...but well behind Shaq.

And in the 80's, old guys like Kareem and Gilmore, well past their peaks, and into the '86 season, just abused him. And a more prime Moses surely would have too. Moses was clearly the better player thru '88.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=olajuha01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=malonmo01&p2=olajuha01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=gilmoar01&p2=olajuha01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=abdulka01&p2=olajuha01

And Wilt was the 2nd best center of the 60's behind Russell. And he was no where close to be the best center in the 70's.

And yeah, Kareem really "abused" Olajuwon in the playoffs. 2nd year pro Olajuwon just beasted on him and Gilmore, you don't even know who guarded Gilmore you lame bastard.

And Olajuwon even challenged Moses in his rookie year where he was very raw in terms of offensive play and by his 2nd pro season he got the best of Moses on several occassions.

millwad

09-09-2013, 01:51 AM

Yep...a Hakeem that was seldom in the top-5 in MVP voting, and often not even in the Top-10...and a player who could lead his team to so many first round exits, and usually blowout losses...greater than a player who owns the Record Book, and was a far greater winner.

Chamberlain was an eyelash away from winning five more titles, while Hakeem was an eyelash away from being swept five times in the first round.

Haha, Chamberlain played in a freaking era where they had 8 teams in the beginning and he played with much better players, you bastard.

And Chamberlain was an eyelash from winning five more titles but he didn't, he was a seldom choker who choked time after tim.

Deuce Bigalow

09-09-2013, 06:20 AM

Chamberlain was five freethrows away from winning five more titles.
Fixed

Helix

09-09-2013, 12:15 PM

millwad

09-09-2013, 02:38 PM

Pure nonsense applies to your post (as usual), not mine. I saw both play numerous times, and simply put, Chamberlain was the better center, and by a pretty good margin.

I've seen Wilt play enough to clarify Olajuwon as the obvious winner, Wilt just wasn't as good or complete as a player. Statistical dominance is not equal with actual dominance and overall Wilt averaged 22.5 points per game in the plaoyoffs compared to Olajuwon's 25.9 and Olajuwon has a MUCH higher PER36 minute average.

And Wilt's dominance came in the regular season and he was never able to win as the leading scorer of a team which is sad.

And I like your way of posting, no arguments what so ever. I couldn't care less about what you believe and you're not even able to put any insight to your post.

Helix

09-09-2013, 03:22 PM

I've seen Wilt play enough to clarify Olajuwon as the obvious winner, Wilt just wasn't as good or complete as a player. Statistical dominance is not equal with actual dominance and overall Wilt averaged 22.5 points per game in the plaoyoffs compared to Olajuwon's 25.9 and Olajuwon has a MUCH higher PER36 minute average.

And Wilt's dominance came in the regular season and he was never able to win as the leading scorer of a team which is sad.

And I like your way of posting, no arguments what so ever. I couldn't care less about what you believe and you're not even able to put any insight to your post.

Oh, I could post all kinds of insight, but there's really no point in trying to argue with someone like you. I've seen Lauber mop the floor with you time and time again, and every time you come back posting nothing but utter nonsense. I really don't know why he bothers.......I won't. Your history shows your not capable of intelligent, unbiased discussion.....at least where Chamberlain is involved.

julizaver

09-09-2013, 04:11 PM

Pure nonsense.

During Wilt's statistical prime he faced mentally challenged offensive players like Russell and Thurmond, at least in terms of actually scoring which makes life easy.

And his playoff-runs are nothing but pathetic and his title runs are no where close Hakeem's back to backs. While Olajuwon dominated 3 out of the top 10 centers of all-time, Chamberlain was outscored with 23 points per game during his second run against Kareem.

Wilt Chamberlain outplayed individually all of his opponents, the only one he could not dominate is Kareem. And he admitted that himself. There is a video in youtube in which Wilt said that for the first time in his career, at that stage of his career he think that he would need some help against Kareem. Keep in mind that 27 of his 28 meetings came after Wilt turned 34 years of age.

Generally their duel could be reviewed in two parts. In their first 11 meetings they were statistically even and in the '71 series according to archive newspapers Wilt outplayed Kareem in 4 of the 5 meetings between them (Game 1 closed and Games 2, 3 and 5 clearly). You can check yourself if you have any doubts. In general Wilt outplayed Kareem in 8 of the 11 meetings, but the Bucks won 8 of 11 also.

The next 17 meetings Kareem was peaking the Wilt changed his style of play under Sharman - he would became defensive minded and became third or four scoring option. Interesting enough Wilt according to himself was in better physical condition than previous two seasons (sore knees). Kareem scoring increased with 8, Wilt scoring decreased with 10. In general Kareem outplayed Wilt in 9 of the 17 games, 5 games I give the edge to Wilt and 3 consider draws (although their are questionable and they were all Lakers wins). But the Lakers won 11 of the 17 meetings.

The other center who gave Wilt troubles was W. Reed during his first four games of '70 finals due to his outside shooting and Wilt lack of lateral movement due to his surgery few months ago, but do not dominate him as Wilt was always the master of the boards. Prior to his knee injury in 1969 Wilt dominate everybody. In 1968 he had successful series against both Bellamy and Reed NYs (with Bellamy at C and Reed at PF position).

jlauber

09-09-2013, 06:54 PM

Damn!

My account got deleted?

I wish someone would have told me...

Vienceslav

09-09-2013, 07:48 PM

Damn!

My account got deleted?

I wish someone would have told me...
Still lurkin.:rockon:

La Frescobaldi

09-09-2013, 10:55 PM

Wilt Chamberlain outplayed individually all of his opponents, the only one he could not dominate is Kareem. And he admitted that himself. There is a video in youtube in which Wilt said that for the first time in his career, at that stage of his career he think that he would need some help against Kareem. Keep in mind that 27 of his 28 meetings came after Wilt turned 34 years of age.

Generally their duel could be reviewed in two parts. In their first 11 meetings they were statistically even and in the '71 series according to archive newspapers Wilt outplayed Kareem in 4 of the 5 meetings between them (Game 1 closed and Games 2, 3 and 5 clearly). You can check yourself if you have any doubts. In general Wilt outplayed Kareem in 8 of the 11 meetings, but the Bucks won 8 of 11 also.

The next 17 meetings Kareem was peaking the Wilt changed his style of play under Sharman - he would became defensive minded and became third or four scoring option. Interesting enough Wilt according to himself was in better physical condition than previous two seasons (sore knees). Kareem scoring increased with 8, Wilt scoring decreased with 10. In general Kareem outplayed Wilt in 9 of the 17 games, 5 games I give the edge to Wilt and 3 consider draws (although their are questionable and they were all Lakers wins). But the Lakers won 11 of the 17 meetings.

The other center who gave Wilt troubles was W. Reed during his first four games of '70 finals due to his outside shooting and Wilt lack of lateral movement due to his surgery few months ago, but do not dominate him as Wilt was always the master of the boards. Prior to his knee injury in 1969 Wilt dominate everybody. In 1968 he had successful series against both Bellamy and Reed NYs (with Bellamy at C and Reed at PF position).

Willis game improved after DeBusschere showed up. There were key defensive situations that WR struggled with in the earlier years and Bells was not the man to solve those kinds of things. The big shakeup with the Pistons and the Knicks was a positive for NYC. That trade led straight to the great Knicks teams of the 70s. Of course getting Walt Frazier and Phil Jackson a year or two before didn't hurt anything but the point is, big Dave brought real defensive rotations in the paint to the table for the Knicks.
Suddenly Willis could depend on his partner down low. Bellamy was a great player in his own right but mixing Reed and Bellamy together, unfortunately, made a lot of mud. They kinda ran into each other a lot and there were some strange looks all around.
DeBusschere understood the power game that Reed had on offense - of course it didn't hurt that DD could lob shells from outside and had a pretty post game of his own - but it was at the other end that they were like a match made in Heaven.
Seamless defensive switches, lot of conversation down low, and the powerful fore-arms that Dave would put in a center's back all added up to some great D all through those years.
Those Knicks teams don't get nearly the credit they deserve. They get shuffled around and sort of disappear from view because they came on strong after Sam Jones and Bill Russell retired, ending the dynasty Celtics teams..... and the great '71 Bucks and '72 Lakers squads were as good as anything for several years earlier or later. A lot of people don't know about the '73 Celtics but 68 wins was an amazing season and a simple measure of Hondo's worth on the court was the East Finals when he threw out his shoulder.... that injury allowed the Knicks to take down Boston and get to the Finals.

But Willis in his glory days was a sight, no question. Reed's injury-wracked career doesn't get the notoriety that, say, Bill Walton gets, but it was severe. It's a shame that so much of his career was spent recovering from injury because even though he was counted as a Top 50 guy with a rocket......... when he was 100% Willis was so much more, even than that high accolade. Truly one of the greats of that era, on one of the all-time great teams.

Marchesk

09-10-2013, 12:35 AM

Damn!

My account got deleted?

I wish someone would have told me...

Then set the record straight. Are you are are you not Lazeruss?

millwad

09-10-2013, 01:02 AM

Damn!

My account got deleted?

I wish someone would have told me...

It was deactivated.

Why do you have two accounts? You're such a clown.

CavaliersFTW

09-10-2013, 01:11 AM

Damn!

My account got deleted?

I wish someone would have told me...
:biggums:

So why the long absence and new lazeruss account if Jlauber account still worked fine? I was under the impression you had either forgotten your password or had gotten banned for w/e reason :confusedshrug:

millwad

09-10-2013, 02:51 AM

:biggums:

So why the long absence and new lazeruss account if Jlauber account still worked fine? I was under the impression you had either forgotten your password or had gotten banned for w/e reason :confusedshrug:

Same here.

The funny thing is that he thinks that we're under the impression that "Lazeruss" isn't him.. :facepalm

julizaver

09-10-2013, 11:24 AM

:biggums:

So why the long absence and new lazeruss account if Jlauber account still worked fine? I was under the impression you had either forgotten your password or had gotten banned for w/e reason :confusedshrug:

I have noticed Jlauber on another topic last week. And remember someone had claimed here that he was dead last year. Actually it was a thread about it.

LAZERUSS

09-12-2013, 12:16 AM

And Wilt was the 2nd best center of the 60's behind Russell. And he was no where close to be the best center in the 70's.

And yeah, Kareem really "abused" Olajuwon in the playoffs. 2nd year pro Olajuwon just beasted on him and Gilmore, you don't even know who guarded Gilmore you lame bastard.

And Olajuwon even challenged Moses in his rookie year where he was very raw in terms of offensive play and by his 2nd pro season he got the best of Moses on several occassions.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Russell better than Wilt???

:roll: :roll: :roll:

As always, you have done zero research into the subject, but here goes...

You mean the Wilt who ran away with the MVP award in his ROOKIE season? The Wilt who was ROBBED of the MVP award in '62 and '64? The Chamberlain who was the overwhelming MVP three straight seasons from the mid-60's on? Oh, and the Wilt who held a 7-2 edge in First-Team All-NBA's over Russell in the entire decade of the 60's? The Wilt who nearly averaged a 30-30 game against Russell every time he stepped on the court against him in their 143 career H2H's?

As for Kareem-Hakeem???

You mean the 39 year old Kareem, who could barely get off the floor, and was being outrebounded by guards on his own teams? The same Kareem who averaged 33 ppg on .620 shooting against Hakeem in 10 straight H2H's, including three of 40+ (including a 46 point game, on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes)?

Oh, and this Hakeem who supposedly "feasted" on Kareem? You mean, who had to have Sampson guard him the '86 WCF', because Kareem had so embarrassed him during their regular season H2H's (hell, Fitch was ripped by the press for allowing Kareem to massacre Hakeem in those h2h's)?

And the Hakeem that "feasted" on that 39 year old Kareem in the WCF's, by outscoring him by a 31 ppg to 27 ppg margin? And outrebounded Kareem (who was a terrible rebounder by that time in his career), 11 rpg to 7 rpg? And, because of Sampson's defense, outshot KAJ by a .520 to .496 margin? Wow!!! That's "feasting"????

A 35-36 year old Gilmore just FEASTED on Hakeem. How else do you explain 24 ppg on .677 shooting over the course of TEN straight games???

And you claim that a young Hakeem has SOME decent games against Moses. But this was not a prime Moses, either. A Moses who just slaughtered a much more prime Kareem than the KAJ who was just shelling the helpless Hakeem for two straight seasons (and again, at ages 38 and 39.) One can only imagine the destruction that a prime Moses would have dished out.

LAZERUSS

09-12-2013, 12:47 AM

Pure nonsense applies to your post (as usual), not mine. I saw both play numerous times, and simply put, Chamberlain was the better center, and by a pretty good margin.

Millwad never even saw KAJ and Hakeem play. He lied about claiming that Hakeem didn't defend him their 84-85 and 85-86 seasonal H2H's. Well, wait a second, technically he was right...Hakeem COULDN'T guard KAJ. He was completely embarrassed TRYING to guard him. It was so bad that Fitch finally yanked him from the assignment in the '86 WCF's, and put Sampson on KAJ (with Hakeem doubling from time-to-time.) Kareem actually shelled Hakeem far greater in their ten straight H2H's, than he did against the rest of the NBA in that span. 33 ppg on .621 shooting in ten straight games...probably the most one-sided stretch of ten straight games by two HOF centers in NBA history (with only Chamberlain's demolition of Bellamy over the course of several seasons being greater.)

Helix

09-12-2013, 03:27 PM

Millwad never even saw KAJ and Hakeem play. He lied about claiming that Hakeem didn't defend him their 84-85 and 85-86 seasonal H2H's. Well, wait a second, technically he was right...Hakeem COULDN'T guard KAJ. He was completely embarrassed TRYING to guard him. It was so bad that Fitch finally yanked him from the assignment in the '86 WCF's, and put Sampson on KAJ (with Hakeem doubling from time-to-time.) Kareem actually shelled Hakeem far greater in their ten straight H2H's, than he did against the rest of the NBA in that span. 33 ppg on .621 shooting in ten straight games...probably the most one-sided stretch of ten straight games by two HOF centers in NBA history (with only Chamberlain's demolition of Bellamy over the course of several seasons being greater.)

Honestly, i don't even take Millwad seriously. All the anti-Wilt crap he's posted has been totally refuted time and time again by you, CavsFTW, and others, and yet he comes right back posting the same crap. I just skip over his nonsense.

As for Kareem vs Hakeem......as well as a 38-40 year old Kareem played against Hakeem, it really makes you wonder what a motivated, peak, early 70's Kareem might have done to him. Or any version of Wilt before his knee injury.

millwad

09-14-2013, 04:30 PM

Honestly, i don't even take Millwad seriously. All the anti-Wilt crap he's posted has been totally refuted time and time again by you, CavsFTW, and others, and yet he comes right back posting the same crap. I just skip over his nonsense.

As for Kareem vs Hakeem......as well as a 38-40 year old Kareem played against Hakeem, it really makes you wonder what a motivated, peak, early 70's Kareem might have done to him. Or any version of Wilt before his knee injury.

First of all, you have yet to actually give me an actual reply with what you don't agree with and Jlauber hasn't refuted anything at all. In fact, I just proved that he didn't even see Wilt play at all, a post you obviously felt to butthurt over to actually read.

And you two homosexual, lonely old farts probably have alot of things in common, this is probably the most pathetic thing I've seen ever on the internet and it's written by you..

JLauber.....I'd love to sit down with you over a cup of coffee (or two) and talk about Wilt and also Russell and that Celtic dynasty. I think you might see some things a little differently. Oh well though, too bad we live a couple of thousand miles apart.

millwad

09-14-2013, 04:35 PM

Millwad never even saw KAJ and Hakeem play. He lied about claiming that Hakeem didn't defend him their 84-85 and 85-86 seasonal H2H's. Well, wait a second, technically he was right...Hakeem COULDN'T guard KAJ. He was completely embarrassed TRYING to guard him. It was so bad that Fitch finally yanked him from the assignment in the '86 WCF's, and put Sampson on KAJ (with Hakeem doubling from time-to-time.) Kareem actually shelled Hakeem far greater in their ten straight H2H's, than he did against the rest of the NBA in that span. 33 ppg on .621 shooting in ten straight games...probably the most one-sided stretch of ten straight games by two HOF centers in NBA history (with only Chamberlain's demolition of Bellamy over the course of several seasons being greater.)

That's pure bogus and you completely took everything out of context.

It's funny that you're so obsessed with rookie and 2nd year pro Olajuwon's match-ups against Kareem. And it's funny how you completely leave out the fact that Olajuwon destroyed Kareem in the playoffs in '86 as a 2nd year pro.

It's also funny how you act like Kareem was some sucker in '85 and '86, he was 4th and 5th on the MVP-list and made the All-NBA first team and second team and still he got comletely outplayed in '86 playoffs. But hey, as a true Wilt fan you can't care less about the playoffs, it was when Wilt choked..

Instead of being so obsessive about lying and making up stuff you should take some time to take care of this obese and lonely sucker of yours;

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/945845_370808393030624_62786455_n.jpg

millwad

09-14-2013, 04:40 PM

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Russell better than Wilt???

:roll: :roll: :roll:

As always, you have done zero research into the subject, but here goes...

That's right, 11 compared to 2 while both had HOF-teammates.. :facepalm

You mean the Wilt who ran away with the MVP award in his ROOKIE season? The Wilt who was ROBBED of the MVP award in '62 and '64? The Chamberlain who was the overwhelming MVP three straight seasons from the mid-60's on? Oh, and the Wilt who held a 7-2 edge in First-Team All-NBA's over Russell in the entire decade of the 60's? The Wilt who nearly averaged a 30-30 game against Russell every time he stepped on the court against him in their 143 career H2H's?

Regular season..

As for Kareem-Hakeem???

You mean the 39 year old Kareem, who could barely get off the floor, and was being outrebounded by guards on his own teams? The same Kareem who averaged 33 ppg on .620 shooting against Hakeem in 10 straight H2H's, including three of 40+ (including a 46 point game, on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes)?

Oh, and this Hakeem who supposedly "feasted" on Kareem? You mean, who had to have Sampson guard him the '86 WCF', because Kareem had so embarrassed him during their regular season H2H's (hell, Fitch was ripped by the press for allowing Kareem to massacre Hakeem in those h2h's)?

And the Hakeem that "feasted" on that 39 year old Kareem in the WCF's, by outscoring him by a 31 ppg to 27 ppg margin? And outrebounded Kareem (who was a terrible rebounder by that time in his career), 11 rpg to 7 rpg? And, because of Sampson's defense, outshot KAJ by a .520 to .496 margin? Wow!!! That's "feasting"????

Just destroyed you regarding this subject.

A 35-36 year old Gilmore just FEASTEDon Hakeem. How else do you explain 24 ppg on .677 shooting over the course of TEN straight games???

And it's funny, you have even confessed that you have no clue who Gilmore was guarded by in those match-ups which makes you a complete liar and shows how much you are willing to lie in a try to push for your agenda.

And you claim that a young Hakeem has SOME decent games against Moses. But this was not a prime Moses, either. A Moses who just slaughtered a much more prime Kareem than the KAJ who was just shelling the helpless Hakeem for two straight seasons (and again, at ages 38 and 39.) One can only imagine the destruction that a prime Moses would have dished out.

Moses was 29 when Olajuwon entered the league. Stop making up silly bogus, it's not going to work and it's funny how you never mention the fact that rookie and 2nd year pro Olajuwon was VERY far away from his prime.. ETHER

millwad

09-15-2013, 06:42 PM

Damn!

My account got deleted?

I wish someone would have told me...

Now tell us, why did you feel the need to create a new account?

LAZERUSS

09-15-2013, 08:47 PM

That's right, 11 compared to 2 while both had HOF-teammates.. :facepalm

Of course I already addressed this in the OP, but if you are going to continue to post nonsense, I will continue to refute it...

'60 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .380 from the field. Lose game six of EDF's.

'61 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .332 from the field. Lose in 1st round.

'62 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .354 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'64 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .383 from the field. Lose in game five of Finals.

'65 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .413 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'66 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .352 from the field. Lose in game five of EDF's.

'67 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .428 from the field. Wins Title

'68 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .416 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'69 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .421 from the field. Lose gaeme seven of Finals.

'70 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .469 from the field. Lose game seven of Finals.

'71 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .446 from the field. Lose game five of WCF's.

'72 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .414 from the field. Wins Title.

'73 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .446 from the field. Lose game five of Finals.

And who had "HOF" teammates who provided these great performances...

Quote:
Playoff FG%'s...

'60 Arizin .431 Gola .412
'61 Arizin .325 Gola .206
'62 Arizin .375 Gola .271
'63 Gola...played 21 games and was shipped out
'64 Thurmond .438
'65 Thurmond (?)...half the season. Greer .455 Walker .480
'66 Greer .352 Cunningham .161 Walker .375
'67 Greer .429 Walker .467 Cunningham .376
'68 Greer .432 Walker .410 Cunningham broke wrist in first round (played 3 games)
'69 West .469 Baylor .385
'70 West .469 Baylor .466
'71 West and Baylor...both injured and do not play in playoffs. Goodrich .425
'72 Baylor retires after 9 nine games. West .376. Goodrich .445
'73 West .449 Goodrch .448

'62 Meschery was NOT an all-star. Shoots .397 in playoffs.
'63 Meschery (* All Star. Played 64 games. 16 ppg .425 FG% during season.)
'63 Rodgers (shoots .387 in regular season.
'64 Rodgers .329 in post-season.
'65 Jackson .338 in playoffs.

Furthermore, if a Russell, whose teams SWARMED Wilt (and by his own teammates' admission I might add) was indeed better than Chamberlain because of his TEAM's 11-2 edge in rings...(all while having HOF margins of as high as 9-1 in their ten seasons in the league together, and never having any in which he had less HOF teammates than Wilt.

then...

84-85... Eaton > Hakeem.
85-86...Parish > Hakeem
86-87...Lister > Hakeem
87-88...Donaldson > Hakeem
88-89...Polynice > Hakeem
89-90...Thompson > Hakeem
90-91...Divac > Hakeem
91-92...Gives up after all the many first round exits and doesn't play.
92-93...Sonics with no true center...pick one > Hakeem
95-96...Sonics with no true center...pick one > Hakeem
96-97...Ostertag > Hakeem
97-98...Ostertag and Foster > Hakeem
98-99...well this pretty obvious... Shaq > Hakeem (and by a country mile)
01-02...Wallace > Hakeem

Luckily for Hakeem he didn't bother trying to get to the playoffs in 99-00 and 00-01...or who knows...Carrot-Top > Hakeem...

Hakeem, the greatest FIRST ROUND LOSER in NBA history...

Deuce Bigalow

09-16-2013, 12:22 AM

Hakeem, still won the same amount of rings as "The Big Dipper"

HoopsFanNumero1

09-16-2013, 01:04 AM

lol. That's a perfect nickname. The Big Dipper.

millwad

09-16-2013, 01:07 AM

Of course I already addressed this in the OP, but if you are going to continue to post nonsense, I will continue to refute it...

Furthermore, if a Russell, whose teams SWARMED Wilt (and by his own teammates' admission I might add) was indeed better than Chamberlain because of his TEAM's 11-2 edge in rings...(all while having HOF margins of as high as 9-1 in their ten seasons in the league together, and never having any in which he had less HOF teammates than Wilt.

then...

Hakeem, the greatest FIRST ROUND LOSER in NBA history...

Haha, you're so full of bogus shit, go and take care of your fat son, you worthless piece of shit.

Chamberlain is the biggest playoff choker of all-time, no doubt. Olajuwon's 2 title runs are way more impressive compared to Wilt's a la getting outscored with 23 points per game against Kareem.

Olajuwon raised his game in the playoffs, Wilt did the complete opposite and while Olajuwon won with Maxwell who averaged 13.8 points per game on 36% shooting as his 2nd best scorer, Wilt won with HOF:ers and All-stars.

Your fat son approves this post;

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/945845_370808393030624_62786455_n.jpg

michaelray

09-16-2013, 03:20 AM

Anyone think 60s Celtics the goat team？
say,the 65 version?

Since they have tons of talent

LAZERUSS

09-16-2013, 08:13 AM

Haha, you're so full of bogus shit, go and take care of your fat son, you worthless piece of shit.

Chamberlain is the biggest playoff choker of all-time, no doubt. Olajuwon's 2 title runs are way more impressive compared to Wilt's a la getting outscored with 23 points per game against Kareem.

Olajuwon raised his game in the playoffs, Wilt did the complete opposite and while Olajuwon won with Maxwell who averaged 13.8 points per game on 36% shooting as his 2nd best scorer, Wilt won with HOF:ers and All-stars.

Your fat son approves this post;

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/945845_370808393030624_62786455_n.jpg

I find this creepy on so many levels....

First of all, that is not someone I know. And secondly, why would you care?

Asukal

09-16-2013, 10:54 AM

I find this creepy on so many levels....

First of all, that is not someone I know. And secondly, why would you care?

Almost as creepy as your stanning of Wilt. :applause:

millwad

09-16-2013, 11:53 AM

I find this creepy on so many levels....

First of all, that is not someone I know. And secondly, why would you care?

First of all, it is and I recieved a PM from "ActionpcSports" regarding you and some of the stuff was pretty bothering in all honesty and don't be a deadbeat.

I would really like to know how this obsession really started, we all know due your posting history that you didn't see the guy play to start with. Then suddenly you became all obsessed and in love with the guy, it's really weird, especially since you're an old man.

julizaver

09-16-2013, 12:22 PM

First of all, it is and I recieved a PM from "ActionpcSports" regarding you and some of the stuff was pretty bothering in all honesty and don't be a deadbeat.

I would really like to know how this obsession really started, we all know due your posting history that you didn't see the guy play to start with. Then suddenly you became all obsessed and in love with the guy, it's really weird, especially since you're an old man.

Your are as obsessed with Jlauber (or Lazzer) as he is with Wilt at least.
But his posts/essays do not contain the personal insults which you throws in almost all your posts. So in my honest opinion while he is Wilt's fan (in which I do not see anything wrong) YOU have some serious PROBLEMS.
Try to live a normal life boy and spent your free time doing something useful, rather then mess with people's families and searching internet for sh*ts like that. It is a basketball forum at all, not a social network.

millwad

09-16-2013, 12:42 PM

Your are as obsessed with Jlauber (or Lazzer) as he is with Wilt at least.
But his posts/essays do not contain the personal insults which you throws in almost all your posts. So in my honest opinion while he is Wilt's fan (in which I do not see anything wrong) YOU have some serious PROBLEMS.
Try to live a normal life boy and spent your free time doing something useful, rather then mess with people's families and searching internet for sh*ts like that. It is a basketball forum at all, not a social network.

Learn some English, your poor English is pathetic.

I couldn't care less about your honest opinion, I got the info about Jlauber from a poster "Actionpcsports" and some parts of it is beyond pathetic but I'm not posting it.

And next time you want to give advice to someone about how they should live their life, look at your own life to start with, you're a sad person who spends all his time reading old news papers which you don't even understand due the fact that you barely know any english. All because of your obsession with Wilt's stats.

julizaver

09-16-2013, 12:53 PM

Learn some English, your poor English is pathetic.

I couldn't care less about your honest opinion, I got the info about Jlauber from a poster "Actionpcsports" and some parts of it is beyond pathetic but I'm not posting it.

And next time you want to give advice to someone about how they should live their life, look at your own life to start with, you're a sad person who spends all his time reading old news papers which you don't even understand due the fact that you barely know any english. All because of your obsession with Wilt's stats.

Every normal person could see by your posts that you need a special meeting with psychoanalyst. You have too much hate in your heart.
And your 'better' English could not hide it.

Kblaze8855

04-08-2014, 10:29 PM

Guy Rodgers finally made the HOF. Took 30 years too long.

Stringer Bell

05-06-2016, 03:23 PM

Guy Rodgers finally made the HOF. Took 30 years too long.

Would have been nice if they elected him when he was still alive. :(

csh19792001

11-03-2021, 12:27 PM

You always ignore FG%'s...obviously because players like Kobe and Bird shot so poorly in their post-seasons from the field. Of course, as any good mathematician would tell you... a FGA is worth twice that of a FTA.

So, let's use TS%'s in that game seven, shall we?

Jerry West... .552. Not bad...the post-season league average was .475. Elgin, "I'm going to shoot us down the drain in this series" Baylor.. .408. Your boy Counts, whom you would seem to prefer over Wilt... .321. Hell, let's throw the "clutch" Russell's numbers in that game into this mix, too, shall we... .333.

How about Chamberlain? Yep, the "choker"...all he could do was hang a .621 TS% in that last game (Even with a 4-13 FT-FTA.) All while grabbing 27 rebounds (and watching his team lose the game by two points while sitting on the bench in the last five minutes.)

Of course, Chamberlain's post-season TS% differentials (against league averages) were among the highest of all-time. But, as always, you conveniently forget to post that. But not only that, he was also reducing his opposing centers to WAY lower than their norms, as well. All while pounding the hell out of them on the glass.

In case people are wondering why Wil't numbers dipped, overall, in the playoffs offensively, here you go:

Hi, I've been collecting stats for a while and I decided to make this post here. I separated some superstars offensive production in playoffs based on defense (RS ORtg) faced. Here are my (random) criteria:

Over +2.0 rDRtg - Bad Defense
From +2.0 to -2.0 rDRtg - Average Defense
From -2.0 to -4.0 rDRtg - Good Defense
From -4.0 to -7.0 rDRtg - Elite Defense
Below -7.0 rDRtg - All-Time Great Defense

I started with centers (my favorite position) and I haven't finished yet, but here are some results:

Wilt Chamberlain (1960-68):
Against All-Time Great Defenses (23.75% of playoffs games): 47.7 mpg, 28.7 rpg, 2.9 apg, 31.2 ppg on 50.9% FG, 56.8% FT, 53.4% TS (+5.30 rTS%)

Bill Russell (1959-66):
Against All-Time Great Defenses (0.0% of playoffs games):--

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (1970-80):
Against All-Time Great Defenses (0.0% of playoffs games): --

SNIP

Vs. -4.0 or better rDRtg defenses ("Elite Defenses"):

Bill Russell (11.0% of playoffs games): 42.8 mpg, 26.2 rpg, 3.8 apg, 16.4 ppg on 42.7% FG, 60.9% FT, 45.4% TS (-1.90 rTS%)

Wilt Chamberlain (52.50% of playoffs games): 47.5 mpg, 28.5 rpg, 4.3 apg, 28.1 ppg on 50.8% FG, 50.6% FT, 52.2% TS (+3.84 rTS%)

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (26.60% of playoffs games): 44.1 mpg, 15.9 rpg, 4.1 apg, 33.3 ppg on 54.5% FG, 72.2% FT, 56.9% TS (+5.28 rTS%)

Tell me what you think about it. I expect good discussion ;)[/quote]

Looking at the above data.....the discrepancy in % of games played against "Elite" + "All Time Great" Defenses in the playoffs further solidifies the case I've been making with my Head To Head Wilt/Russell/KAJ versus Hall Of Fame Centers Study:

Namely:

1) Wilt played against much, MUCH tougher competition than either Russell or KAJ, in the playoffs- both in his prime, and, career.

2) Wilt still (somehow) thrived/dominated, despite playing a much higher % of his games against the best defenses, ever, and any "inconsistency" or "drop off" in his offensive production is due to A) He stopped shooting and scoring the second half of his career and B) he faced the toughest average competition of any Center in NBA History in the playoffs.