why are Kobe's stats.....

[riseagainst]

not nearly as impressive as the player his fans say he is?

career 25-5-5 is no joke obviously. But 45% FG is far from impressive, it's more like average at best (compared to guards).

compare that to 30-6-5 on ~50%FG.

I won't even mention playoff numbers cause that's even farther off.

Gotta admit, he's had his share of "Jordan Moments", but in the grand scheme of things, he's not really that close.

your thoughts?

:confusedshrug:

[kNicKz]

Omg he isn't as good as Jordan he ****ing sucks! total loser

[Trollsmasher]

When stats, advanced stats, eliminination games stats or clutch stats come into the play, Kobe ALWAYS falls short to other great-greats, even when you take out his bench years.

Kobe fans will tell you that none of these are objective, but when every single one of them points against him, nobody can't deny that he is not that great.

[kNicKz]

When stats, advanced stats, eliminination games stats or clutch stats come into the play, Kobe ALWAYS falls short to other great-greats, even when you take out his bench years.

Kobe fans will tell you that none of these are objective, but when every single one of them points against him, nobody can't deny that he is not that great.

He's been to the NBA Finals 7 times , denial of his greatness is delusion

[DMAVS41]

He's been to the NBA Finals 7 times , denial of his greatness is delusion

It's not a denial of greatness.

It's just that for someone to claim some of the things they do about Kobe...it would have to show up a little more in objective measures.

Making the finals 7 times and winning 5 rings is an amazing accomplishment, but you wouldn't look at it without context. Just like you don't look at stats without context.

So in the same way you look at ppg on overall efficiency...you need to look at circumstances in which team success is had.

Which is why I always laugh when Kobe stans claim that playing with Shaq hurt his legacy. Absurd. The truth is that the fall back is always "ring count"...

Kobe having marginally better numbers, if at all, without Shaq would never make up for the 4 finals and 3 rings with him.

[f0und]

kobe kids will swear up and down that kobe is this unstoppable force, has the biggest skill set, a killer, etc. if you didnt know any better and listened to these fools, youd think kobe has hit the 55%+ fg% a few times in his career. and that his clutch gene is off the charts. but in reality, he's never shot better than 47% in a single season and he shoots 25% in clutch situations.

[Trollsmasher]

He's been to the NBA Finals 7 times , denial of his greatness is delusion
I am not denying it. I am just saying that it is not as great as some make it out to be.

[OldSchoolBBall]

but in reality, he's never shot better than 47% in a single season and he shoots 25% in clutch situations.

He's never even shot a legit 47% for a single season (46.9% was his best), which is pretty crazy.

[kNicKz]

It's not a denial of greatness.

It's just that for someone to claim some of the things they do about Kobe...it would have to show up a little more in objective measures.

Making the finals 7 times and winning 5 rings is an amazing accomplishment, but you wouldn't look at it without context. Just like you don't look at stats without context.

So in the same way you look at ppg on overall efficiency...you need to look at circumstances in which team success is had.

Which is why I always laugh when Kobe stans claim that playing with Shaq hurt his legacy. Absurd. The truth is that the fall back is always "ring count"...

Kobe having marginally better numbers, if at all, without Shaq would never make up for the 4 finals and 3 rings with him.

Of course he wouldn't have made the finals without Shaq. But Shaq wouldn't have sniffed the Finals on those Lakers teams without Kobe. It goes both ways. A lot of people act like the Lakers would win 3 straight with or without Kobe

[iDunk]

Its pretty amazing when you consider the difficult shots he takes & makes at 45%.

[Marchesk]

He's been to the NBA Finals 7 times , denial of his greatness is delusion

He won those 2 FMVPs as a role player.

[TheMarkMadsen]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IDLGMGgaUNc&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DIDLGMGgaUNc

[f0und]

Its pretty amazing when you consider the difficult shots he takes & makes at 45%.

smart players dont take those kinds of shots.

[kNicKz]

He's never even shot a legit 47% for a single season (46.9% was his best), which is pretty crazy.

Efficiency goes down with volume. Who else has averaged 35.4 in a season ? That is pretty crazy man. Besides, a solid shooting guard averages in the .45-.5 range anyway. You're dissecting 3-4% differences?

[qrich]

Because he spent a couple of years getting minimal playing time?

[gts]

Gladdens my heart to see Kobe haters are still obsessed with him after 17 years in the league :lol

The best part of Kobe's career besides his being one of the all time greats to ever play the game is that it drives people to the point of stupidity trying to discredit him.

[kNicKz]

smart players dont take those kinds of shots.

Kobe is a stupid player now? lmao

5 rings....everyone in the league is just playing catch up at this point

[kNicKz]

Because he spent a couple of years getting minimal playing time?
statters gonna stat

[f0und]

Efficiency goes down with volume. Who else has averaged 35.4 in a season ? That is pretty crazy man. Besides, a solid shooting guard averages in the .45-.5 range anyway. You're dissecting 3-4% differences?

but the thing is, kobe kids dont think he's some solid shooting guard. if that was so, nobody would have a problem with it. its when they try to sell you that he's this GOAT level player on par with legit GOATs.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Because he spent a couple of years getting minimal playing time?


For all the people who talk about context, they seem to never look at his career averages with any context

[f0und]

Kobe is a stupid player now? lmao

5 rings....everyone in the league is just playing catch up at this point


yes. always has been

[SilkkTheShocker]

Kobe has Jordan moments? The man has no signature playoffs moments in his career. Unless you count shooting 6-24 in the biggest game of your career :oldlol:

[kNicKz]

but the thing is, kobe kids dont think he's some solid shooting guard. if that was so, nobody would have a problem with it. its when they try to sell you that he's this GOAT level player on par with legit GOATs.

He is one of the greatest to ever do it, that simply can't be denied. He isn't on Jordan's level, but he is on the level right below it

[scm5]

It's not a denial of greatness.

It's just that for someone to claim some of the things they do about Kobe...it would have to show up a little more in objective measures.

Making the finals 7 times and winning 5 rings is an amazing accomplishment, but you wouldn't look at it without context. Just like you don't look at stats without context.

So in the same way you look at ppg on overall efficiency...you need to look at circumstances in which team success is had.

Which is why I always laugh when Kobe stans claim that playing with Shaq hurt his legacy. Absurd. The truth is that the fall back is always "ring count"...

Kobe having marginally better numbers, if at all, without Shaq would never make up for the 4 finals and 3 rings with him.

It's actually not inconceivable that Kobe might have been able to pull that off if paired with another all-star big.

Paired with Pau, Kobe was able to make it to three more finals and obtain two more rings on the tail end of his prime.

Another argument Kobe fans often use is that without his first two years on the bench, Kobe's stats jump up to something like 28/6/5. While I agree this is nitpicking stats, it's also not as fair to Kobe as he came into the league earlier and less developed than MJ. If we took out MJ's Washington days and just too his numbers from 21-34, along with Kobe's numbers from 21-34.... which was pretty much their windows for winning championships...

28/6/5 on 55.5% TS%

vs

31/6/5 on 56.9% TS%

Doesn't seem all that far apart to me.

I mean, in the end, does it REALLY matter that Kobe maybe wasn't NBA-starter ready at the beginning of his career and MJ was? He was younger and less developed.

[kNicKz]

Kobe has Jordan moments? The man has no signature playoffs moments in his career. Unless you count shooting 6-24 in the biggest game of your career :oldlol:

He grabbed 15 rebounds in that game and the dagger came off of an assist from Kobe. And that wasn't the biggest game of his career. He had 4 rings at that point :roll: he just punched in that day and did what he always does. Win

[gts]

but the thing is, kobe kids dont think he's some solid shooting guard. if that was so, nobody would have a problem with it. its when they try to sell you that he's this GOAT level player on par with legit GOATs.

He is, learn to live with it.

[SilkkTheShocker]

He grabbed 15 rebounds in that game and the dagger came off of an assist from Kobe. And that wasn't the biggest game of his career. He had 4 rings at that point :roll: he just punched in that day and did what he always does. Win

No notable playoff moments. He doesn't have a Flu Game, LeBron game 5 against Detroit, etc. The guy is a watered down Jordan that won the bulk of his rings as a little bitch sidekick. Not impressed at all. Dude is 1st round fodder unless he has the best frontcourt and coach in the league. Overrated.

[kNicKz]

He is, learn to live with it.

He is a top 10 talent , and his longevity at this point is boosting him even more

[zoom17]

Another kobe bashing thread:facepalm I dont like kobe and I think Lebron is a better player but give him credit. Lebron is good kobe is good and Jordan is good quit comparing them all the time.

[riseagainst]

No notable playoff moments. He doesn't have a Flu Game, LeBron game 5 against Detroit, etc. The guy is a watered down Jordan that won the bulk of his rings as a little bitch sidekick. Not impressed at all. Dude is 1st round fodder unless he has the best frontcourt and coach in the league. Overrated.

don't go full pauk on us. I can sense the anger and frustration already.

[DMAVS41]

It's actually not inconceivable that Kobe might have been able to pull that off if paired with another all-star big.

Paired with Pau, Kobe was able to make it to three more finals and obtain two more rings on the tail end of his prime.

Another argument Kobe fans often use is that without his first two years on the bench, Kobe's stats jump up to something like 28/6/5. While I agree this is nitpicking stats, it's also not as fair to Kobe as he came into the league earlier and less developed than MJ. If we took out MJ's Washington days and just too his numbers from 21-34, along with Kobe's numbers from 21-34.... which was pretty much their windows for winning championships...

28/6/5 on 55.5% TS%

vs

31/6/5 on 56.9% TS%

Doesn't seem all that far apart to me.

I mean, in the end, does it REALLY matter that Kobe maybe wasn't NBA-starter ready at the beginning of his career and MJ was? He was younger and less developed.

You could do this with any player.

And no, Kobe and just an all star big are not winning. The Kings are then a lock to win in 02.

In 00 the Blazers are a lock to win.

01 would be the only year...and Kobe would have to go through 2 better players in Shaq and Duncan.

I personally don't put a huge amount of weight into regular season numbers...so I'd focus more on playoffs for the objective measures...but you can use whatever you want.

You can't just remove years from a career unless you do the same for other players.

[kNicKz]

No notable playoff moments. He doesn't have a Flu Game, LeBron game 5 against Detroit, etc. The guy is a watered down Jordan that won the bulk of his rings as a little bitch sidekick. Not impressed at all. Dude is 1st round fodder unless he has the best frontcourt and coach in the league. Overrated.

Dunk on Vlade?

2000 Finals game 4 OT ? shaq fouls out and Kobe hits dagger after dagger

2009 Finals game 1? 40 points in a finals game....

Phoenix dagger?

Hitting a three in Rips face?

The legendary alley oop to Shaq against the Trail Blazers?

That dunk in 2002 on MacCulloch?

Man, I need to download all of these games now ...

[kNicKz]

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2010/0618/nba_g_kbryant_sy_576.jpg

[zoom17]

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2010/0618/nba_g_kbryant_sy_576.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/1011954_588809337805854_1666231204_n.png

[kNicKz]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/1011954_588809337805854_1666231204_n.png

He's getting there, still has a while to go

[scm5]

Kobe has Jordan moments? The man has no signature playoffs moments in his career. Unless you count shooting 6-24 in the biggest game of your career :oldlol:

For the tie to OT against the Suns, then for the win.

Kobe to Shaq lob against the Blazers after Kobe took over and brought the team back from a 15 point deficit.

Kobe's takeover against the Pacers in the 00' Finals when Shaq fouled out.

Shitting all over the Spurs.

His incredible series against Alvin Gentry's Suns against Grant Hill who actually played great defense. He was just hitting all sorts of high level of difficulty shots. Dude put up 34/7/8/1/1/2.5 on 52% FG and 44% 3FG.

[zoom17]

He's getting there, still has a while to go

http://sophisticatedignorance.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Lebron-James-4-MVPs.jpg

When will kobe get here?

[Deuce Bigalow]

It's actually not inconceivable that Kobe might have been able to pull that off if paired with another all-star big.

Paired with Pau, Kobe was able to make it to three more finals and obtain two more rings on the tail end of his prime.

Another argument Kobe fans often use is that without his first two years on the bench, Kobe's stats jump up to something like 28/6/5. While I agree this is nitpicking stats, it's also not as fair to Kobe as he came into the league earlier and less developed than MJ. If we took out MJ's Washington days and just too his numbers from 21-34, along with Kobe's numbers from 21-34.... which was pretty much their windows for winning championships...

28/6/5 on 55.5% TS%

vs

31/6/5 on 56.9% TS%

Doesn't seem all that far apart to me.

I mean, in the end, does it REALLY matter that Kobe maybe wasn't NBA-starter ready at the beginning of his career and MJ was? He was younger and less developed.
Here are the exact stats of Kobe and Jordan age 21-24

21-34 Kobe: 27.8 PPG, 5.7 RPG, 5.2 APG, 1.6 SPG, 8.3 TRB%, 25.3 AST%, 55.6 TS%

21-34 MJ: 31.5 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 5.4 APG, 2.5 SPG, 9.4 TRB%, 24.9 AST%, 58.0 TS%

[TheMarkMadsen]

For the tie to OT against the Suns, then for the win.

Kobe to Shaq lob against the Blazers after Kobe took over and brought the team back from a 15 point deficit.

Kobe's takeover against the Pacers in the 00' Finals when Shaq fouled out.

Shitting all over the Spurs.

His incredible series against Alvin Gentry's Suns against Grant Hill who actually played great defense. He was just hitting all sorts of high level of difficulty shots. Dude put up 34/7/8/1/1/2.5 on 52% FG and 44% 3FG.


2001 wcsf: 35 9 & 4. WCF: 33 7 7 on 51%

[ihoopallday]

He's getting there, still has a while to go

The scary part is he's only 28 :eek: I think he still has 3-4 years of peak play.

[riseagainst]

2001 wcsf: 35 9 & 4. WCF: 33 7 7 on 51%

Most people don't even remember this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fw4GVU5f7_M

game winning shot over Jason Kidd in his defensive prime.

:bowdown:

[branslowski]

Gladdens my heart to see Kobe haters are still obsessed with him after 17 years in the league :lol

The best part of Kobe's career besides his being one of the all time greats to ever play the game is that it drives people to the point of stupidity trying to discredit him.

Best post of the thread.

I'm basically done arguing with this nonsense. Especially when you notice certain posters who aren't Kobe fans, yet a Dirk fan or Durant fan searching for any and every Kobe thread just to passively or aggressively discredit Kobe.

Once ppl start getting into "stacked frontline carried Kobe" or "Gasol true Finals mvp" exc..I just walk away and let them believe their bullshit.

It usually goes like this

"Stacked frontline, Bynum, Odom, Artest" then you show them their subpar to garbage numbers then its "stats don't matter, blah blah".....Oh, so now stats don't matter?:oldlol:

That's when they give it away that their only here to discredit Kobe. It's sad, but at the same time it shows their insecurity.

[kNicKz]

http://sophisticatedignorance.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Lebron-James-4-MVPs.jpg

When will kobe get here?

When the regular season matters to him maybe

[kNicKz]

The scary part is he's only 28 :eek: I think he still has 3-4 years of peak play.

Yeah he could definitely get there and even overtake him , but at this moment in time you can't discredit Kobe . He's simply done more

[DMAVS41]

Best post of the thread.

I'm basically done arguing with this nonsense. Especially when you notice certain posters who aren't Kobe fans, yet a Dirk fan or Durant fan searching for any and every Kobe thread just to passively or aggressively discredit Kobe.

Once ppl start getting into "stacked frontline carried Kobe" or "Gasol true Finals mvp" exc..I just walk away and let them believe their bullshit.

It usually goes like this

"Stacked frontline, Bynum, Odom, Artest" then you show them their subpar to garbage numbers then its "stats don't matter, blah blah".....Oh, so now stats don't matter?:oldlol:

That's when they give it away that their only here to discredit Kobe. It's sad, but at the same time it shows their insecurity.

Nobody is questioning his greatness...it's about where he lies with the greats.

And...what you say isn't an argument. It's just ad hominem to distract from the core issue.

If you want to make a claim...you have to back it up with reasoning or evidence...preferably evidence.

And I'll never understand your logic about the Lakers frontline...you remove Gasol from it and then make your arguments. That makes no sense.

You can't just remove a 20/11/4 60% TS 24.0 PER player from a team and then talk about help in 2010 for example.

[branslowski]

And I'll never understand your logic about the Lakers frontline...you remove Gasol from it and then make your arguments. That makes no sense.

You can't just remove a 20/11/4 60% TS 24.0 PER player from a team and then talk about help in 2010 for example.

:facepalm

For the 100th time I'll explain.

I've always said the Lakers were Kobe/Gasol and role players. That's what they are factual and I always said that. Kobe was that superstar and Gasol was that great second option. It's when ppl start saying "Those TEAMS were stacked" "carried by FRONTLINE" and when "Odom, Bynum, Gasol, Artest" carried Kobe....It's when those retarded statements happen.

Gasol isnt called "stacked frontline" they say stacked because they're talking about the WHOLE team which is obviously false.

So when you say "stacked teams" you are completely retarded and ignorant and not worth the time of an debate.

Now if you say Kobe/Gasol and role players, you are factually correct.

So again, I concede that Kobe was good to have 2nd option Gasol. Never denied it...Just like Jordan needed Pippen, Bird needed Parrish/McHale, and Kaj needed Magic.

How's this even hard to understand?

Also, ur a Dirk fan who post in Kobe threads more than even some Kobe fans, and you have the same passive agressive Kobe discrediting stance you have in every one of them. I know ur game, carry on.

[Legends66NBA7]

Lamar Odom was not a role player.

[branslowski]

Lamar Odom was not a role player.

So would you say he was an Allstar player, or a franchise player, or both?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Lamar Odom was not a role player.

Closer to a role player than an all-star, to be sure. Anyone who has watched Lamar knows dude's game isn't very consistent.

[Legends66NBA7]

So would you say he was an Allstar player, or a franchise player, or both?

He's an all-star caliber player, but not a franchise player. Should have made a couple of all-star spots, but didn't get voted in.

Best years to make an all-star team were 2004, 2008, and 2011.


He was closer to a role player than an all-star. Anyone who has watched Lamar knows dude's game isn't very consistent.

You're correct that he was pretty inconsistent, but Odom doesn't just excel in one role that would make me consider him a role player. He could do it all, score, rebound, pass, defend, hit the outside shot, etc... When I think of role players, specifically on those Laker teams, I think of Derek Fisher, Trevor Ariza, Sasha Vujacic, etc... Even Andrew Bynum was more of a role player than Odom.

Odom giving double-doubles, passing, versatility for those Laker teams just moves him out of that role player talk.

[Hoopz2332]

kobe's known for his offense but his offense isn't that impressive

http://i.imgur.com/PmdzVtz.png

:coleman:

[branslowski]

He's an all-star caliber player, but not a franchise player. Should have made a couple of all-star spots, but didn't get voted in.



Yea....Fact is, he never made an Allstar, he's not an Allstar player, nor franchise player...Avg 12ppg 8reb for first playoff title run solid role numbers, one less ppg than Mo Williams. And then followed that with like 9ppg 7reb the next playoff run....Solid role player numbers...Not Allstar. I'm also not talkin bout Odom with Wade, I'm talkin about the Odom who is brought up during Lakers last 2 title runs.

[BBallZen83]

Its pretty amazing when you consider the difficult shots he takes & makes at 45%.
This is the essence of the Kobe conundrum. He is skilled enough to take high degree difficulty shots, but does so to a fault. He's as skilled as he is brash.

[riseagainst]

kobe's known for his offense but his offense isn't that impressive

http://i.imgur.com/PmdzVtz.png

:coleman:

:biggums:

Kobe has the lowest FG% in a 50 point game: 41.5% FG

:biggums: :wtf: :wtf:

[Legends66NBA7]

Yea....Fact is, he never made an Allstar, he's not an Allstar player, nor franchise player...Avg 12ppg 8reb for first playoff title run solid role numbers, one less ppg than Mo Williams. And then followed that with like 9ppg 7reb the next playoff run....Solid role player numbers...Not Allstar. I'm also not talkin bout Odom with Wade, I'm talkin about the Odom who is brought up during Lakers last 2 title runs.

As I said, he probably should have made one and I said he was an all-star caliber player, so yes he most certainly could be an all-star. You're making it seem like he's not even in the conversation. But I guess since that's the stance and bringing up Mo Williams, Williams > Odom because he got to be an all-star ? The Lakers wouldn't win the title with Williams instead of Odom. Hell, Antawn Jamison is a 2-time all-star, I wouldn't ever see him replacing what Odom brought off the bench.

Read the second part of my post to kuniva. You and I just have different terms for a role player. Derek Fisher is a role player; Odom isn't. He's just to versatile in his role for me to consider a role player.

The Odom that gets brought up isn't the only player I'm looking at, so it seems your confused. Odom is capably of putting up bigger numbers given a bigger role, but ceiling would only make it to a 2nd round. Doesn't make Odom a role player.

The reason why that Laker squad is looked at as potent during those years (no confusions, I'm taking about 07-08 till 10-11), besides Bryant and Gasol, is the well-rounded front court they had. Odom provided a lot of that, some of it not shown in the stats either.

Either way, it's not like I'm holding anything against Kobe Bryant for winning with a good/great cast, he did. My views are just different from yours.

[daily]

kobe's known for his offense but his offense isn't that impressive

http://i.imgur.com/PmdzVtz.png

:coleman:

You're quoting that guy? Lebron homer, horrible basketball breakdown with clear agendas.

His all time list is a joke btw

funny how you turn his posting into a pic and avoid leaving a link

http://swishnba.wordpress.com

[riseagainst]

You're quoting that guy? Lebron homer, horrible basketball breakdown with clear agendas.

His all time list is a joke btw

funny how you turn his posting into a pic and avoid leaving a link

http://swishnba.wordpress.com

lebron at #6.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:




















:roll: :roll: :roll:

[DMAVS41]

:facepalm

For the 100th time I'll explain.

I've always said the Lakers were Kobe/Gasol and role players. That's what they are factual and I always said that. Kobe was that superstar and Gasol was that great second option. It's when ppl start saying "Those TEAMS were stacked" "carried by FRONTLINE" and when "Odom, Bynum, Gasol, Artest" carried Kobe....It's when those retarded statements happen.

Gasol isnt called "stacked frontline" they say stacked because they're talking about the WHOLE team which is obviously false.

So when you say "stacked teams" you are completely retarded and ignorant and not worth the time of an debate.

Now if you say Kobe/Gasol and role players, you are factually correct.

So again, I concede that Kobe was good to have 2nd option Gasol. Never denied it...Just like Jordan needed Pippen, Bird needed Parrish/McHale, and Kaj needed Magic.

How's this even hard to understand?

Also, ur a Dirk fan who post in Kobe threads more than even some Kobe fans, and you have the same passive agressive Kobe discrediting stance you have in every one of them. I know ur game, carry on.

Again with the ad hominem to distract.

I'm sorry, but Gasol, Odom, Artest, and Bynum is absolutely a stacked frontline in 2010 for example...

You are getting;

20/11/4
10/9/2
9/7/1
11/4/2

With all of them playing good to very good defense.

Now, if someone says that Kobe wasn't the best player on those teams...I'd disagree of course. But I've never said that. You act like that isn't stout.

What you do is try to separate Gasol from Kobe's help. So yea...remove Gasol and that team isn't very good. But give Kobe the best 2nd option in the league in 2010 and a solid supporting cast and the GOAT coach...and I have no ****ing clue what you are talking about when you say that team wasn't stacked.

In 2010...not only did Kobe not have to play another truly elite player in the playoffs, but Kobe had the best coach and best 2nd option in every series as well. Not sure how that isn't stacked. And again...the biggest reason they were stacked was because of the greatness of Kobe. As I have repeatedly said...

Edit. Oh, and if Odom is a role player...I hope you call Bosh in 12 and 13 a role player. Exact same type of contributions...especially considering Odom is better defensively.

14/8/1
12/7/2

12/9/2
10/9/2

The marginally better numbers by Bosh is offset by Odom's ability to actually defend and defend well at his position and others. If you don't consider both of those players in the same class...then I give up.

So do you consider Bosh a role player the last 2 years in the playoffs?

[red1]

Kobe has Jordan moments? The man has no signature playoffs moments in his career. Unless you count shooting 6-24 in the biggest game of your career :oldlol:
lebron has had just as many poor playoff games so the 6-24 isnt relevant

[KingLeBronJames]

not nearly as impressive as the player his fans say he is?

career 25-5-5 is no joke obviously. But 45% FG is far from impressive, it's more like average at best (compared to guards).

compare that to 30-6-5 on ~50%FG.

I won't even mention playoff numbers cause that's even farther off.

Gotta admit, he's had his share of "Jordan Moments", but in the grand scheme of things, he's not really that close.

your thoughts?

:confusedshrug:
Did you expect Kobe to shoot 50% in the Playoffs at his old age with bad knees? Jordan couldn't do it neither. And 45% ain't bad.

[branslowski]

Again with the ad hominem to distract.

I'm sorry, but Gasol, Odom, Artest, and Bynum is absolutely a stacked frontline in 2010 for example...

You are getting;

20/11/4
10/9/2
9/7/1
11/4/2

With all of them playing good to very good defense.

Now, if someone says that Kobe wasn't the best player on those teams...I'd disagree of course. But I've never said that. You act like that isn't stout.

What you do is try to separate Gasol from Kobe's help. So yea...remove Gasol and that team isn't very good. But give Kobe the best 2nd option in the league in 2010 and a solid supporting cast and the GOAT coach...and I have no ****ing clue what you are talking about when you say that team wasn't stacked.

In 2010...not only did Kobe not have to play another truly elite player in the playoffs, but Kobe had the best coach and best 2nd option in every series as well. Not sure how that isn't stacked. And again...the biggest reason they were stacked was because of the greatness of Kobe. As I have repeatedly said...

Edit. Oh, and if Odom is a role player...I hope you call Bosh in 12 and 13 a role player. Exact same type of contributions...especially considering Odom is better defensively.

14/8/1
12/7/2

12/9/2
10/9/2

The marginally better numbers by Bosh is offset by Odom's ability to actually defend and defend well at his position and others. If you don't consider both of those players in the same class...then I give up.

So do you consider Bosh a role player the last 2 years in the playoffs?

Wow...case n point.

anyway, we all know it was Kobe/Gasol and role players....Now ur Hidden LeBron homerism is leaking bringing up Bosh for no reason at all....So ur saying Odom was an Allstar or Franchise player? Ur comparing Odom and Bosh....u got it bruh...I feel stupidety from you brewing.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Kobe fans really need to get over the fact LeBron is better than their idol ever was.

[G-Funk]

not nearly as impressive as the player his fans say he is?

career 25-5-5 is no joke obviously. But 45% FG is far from impressive, it's more like average at best (compared to guards).

compare that to 30-6-5 on ~50%FG.

I won't even mention playoff numbers cause that's even farther off.

Gotta admit, he's had his share of "Jordan Moments", but in the grand scheme of things, he's not really that close.

your thoughts?

:confusedshrug:


His career numbers include his first couple of years when he came off the bench, behind Eddie Jones, but as a starter, he's numbers have been great, 28/6/5 46%

[kennethgriffin]

The only reason 25ppg career doesnt look good to morons is because theyre conparing it to michael jordan

The reality is theres only like 2 guys in the top 10 all time with higher career scoring averages

And only like 6 or 7 retired players with higher


But the funny thing is. 25/5/5 isnt even kobes real average. As a starter its closer to 28/6/5

Kobe came off the bench his 1st 2 years

If he came out of college onto a bottom feeder his career average would be 30ppg ... But he would have a few less rings


Winning means you gotta sacrifice sometimes

[3LiftHeatCurse]

Facts are, at age 28, LeBron is ahead of Michael. It's blasphemous to say right now, but LBJ may just go down as the GOAT when it's all said and done if the Heat keep winning.

http://i.minus.com/i9pmA4wBoK8AB.gif

[STATUTORY]

Facts are, at age 28, LeBron is ahead of Michael. It's blasphemous to say right now, but LBJ may just go down as the GOAT when it's all said and done if the Heat keep winning.

http://i.minus.com/i9pmA4wBoK8AB.gif

it's farfetched to imagine lebron's game aging as well as kobe or MJ's

[branslowski]

Kobe fans really need to get over the fact LeBron is better than their idol ever was.

Wtf does anything have to do with LeBron? Or Bosh?....Yawl need to take LeBron's sack outta yawl mouth and post better. Trolls smh....

I'm takin my talents to the NFL Forum for the rest of the night...

Mods, do better.

[talkingconch]

He didnt have the green light right from the start

and Lebron stans need to get over the Kobe > Lebron thing

[oh the horror]

Facts are, at age 28, LeBron is ahead of Michael. It's blasphemous to say right now, but LBJ may just go down as the GOAT when it's all said and done if the Heat keep winning.

http://i.minus.com/i9pmA4wBoK8AB.gif



Problem is, they didn't look spectacular these past playoffs. It isn't easy to just "keep winning"


I guess we shall see. The east is nice this year though.

[DMAVS41]

Wow...case n point.

anyway, we all know it was Kobe/Gasol and role players....Now ur Hidden LeBron homerism is leaking bringing up Bosh for no reason at all....So ur saying Odom was an Allstar or Franchise player? Ur comparing Odom and Bosh....u got it bruh...I feel stupidety from you brewing.

Again with the ad hominem to distract because you can't refute my points.

I didn't say Odom was as good as Bosh before Bosh in 12 and 13.

I said that if Odom is merely considered a role player on the 09 and 10 Lakers...then Bosh must be considered in the exact same manner in 12 and 13.

The production is very similar and you have Odom actually being able to defend his position...etc.

As the best player on a team...of course I'd take Bosh. As the 3rd best player on a team...Odom vs Bosh is very debatable and would come down to fit and role.

[eliteballer]

Kobe wasn't even the same age as rookie Jordan until his 5th year in the league, and he's got one year where he wasn't healthy(2004) and another where he majorly deferred to Shaq(2002)

[diamenz]

Facts are, at age 28, LeBron is ahead of Michael. It's blasphemous to say right now, but LBJ may just go down as the GOAT when it's all said and done if the Heat keep winning.

http://i.minus.com/i9pmA4wBoK8AB.gif

you can't just slap the GOAT label on a player just because of rings and stats. it's what they do on the court - it's what jordan did on the court that makes him the goat... that's how i see it.

[Vragrant]

For the tie to OT against the Suns, then for the win.

Kobe to Shaq lob against the Blazers after Kobe took over and brought the team back from a 15 point deficit.

Kobe's takeover against the Pacers in the 00' Finals when Shaq fouled out.

Shitting all over the Spurs.

His incredible series against Alvin Gentry's Suns against Grant Hill who actually played great defense. He was just hitting all sorts of high level of difficulty shots. Dude put up 34/7/8/1/1/2.5 on 52% FG and 44% 3FG.

Yeah but these are moments specific to Kobe fans. Kobe fans have brought these up constantly throughout the years, but to tbh, none of these moments are part of the general conscience of NBA fans when considering clutch moments. I guess maybe the alleyoop to Shaq in the WCF, but thats' probably it.

[kNicKz]

Facts are, at age 28, LeBron is ahead of Michael. It's blasphemous to say right now, but LBJ may just go down as the GOAT when it's all said and done if the Heat keep winning.

http://i.minus.com/i9pmA4wBoK8AB.gif

College...?

[Unbiased_one]

Of course he wouldn't have made the finals without Shaq. But Shaq wouldn't have sniffed the Finals on those Lakers teams without Kobe. It goes both ways. A lot of people act like the Lakers would win 3 straight with or without Kobe

They could still have won. Shaq was that good.

Kobe is solidly in the top 13 for me, and where he falls in that depends on the day. He's not as great as some people like to think (anyone who puts him in the top 5 is delusional)

[branslowski]

Again with the ad hominem to distract because you can't refute my points.

I didn't say Odom was as good as Bosh before Bosh in 12 and 13.

I said that if Odom is merely considered a role player on the 09 and 10 Lakers...then Bosh must be considered in the exact same manner in 12 and 13.

The production is very similar and you have Odom actually being able to defend his position...etc.

As the best player on a team...of course I'd take Bosh. As the 3rd best player on a team...Odom vs Bosh is very debatable and would come down to fit and role.

:oldlol: Dude, you basically agreeing with my point, yet wanting to argue over nothing.

WTF does Bosh playing bad have to do with me correctly calling Odom a role player? :biggums:

[VIntageNOvel]

those alts :rolleyes:

[DMAVS41]

:oldlol: Dude, you basically agreeing with my point, yet wanting to argue over nothing.

WTF does Bosh playing bad have to do with me correctly calling Odom a role player? :biggums:

I'm asking you to stay consistent...that is all.

[Jacks3]

26/5/5/2/56% TS/112 ORTG over 17 seasons/56,000+ minutes is absolutely incredible...

[DMAVS41]

26/5/5/2/56% TS/112 ORTG over 17 seasons/56,000+ minutes is absolutely incredible...


Who says it isn't?

26/10/3 58.4% TS 24.7 PER 118 ORTG over a career in the playoffs is absolutely incredible....

[branslowski]

I'm asking you to stay consistent...that is all.

Stay consistant with what?:oldlol:

[Legends66NBA7]

anyway, we all know it was Kobe/Gasol and role players

No, you just said that you've stated that he had role players. Odom wasn't a role player and I already reasoned why. This is the only place I've ever seen Odom being called a role player. Seems insulting, but whatever. We just have different terms.

I haven't even brought up one of the most key things from keep Kobe consistent with his play making decisions and not tiring him out during the regular season, making him ready for the playoff stretch.

[DMAVS41]

Stay consistant with what?:oldlol:

Calling Odom a role player and not worth mentioning. I asked if you considered Bosh the same...and then you went on some diatribe about Bosh being a franchise player..etc.

But I'm asking you if you think you would talk about the 12 Heat or 13 Heat as..."Lebron and Wade and role players"

If so, I have no issue. I'm not arguing with you...I'm trying to understand your definition of a role player.

That is all.

And regardless of what you label it...the Lakers frontline in 2010 was stacked.

[7_cody]

How is Odom being overrated so hard?

He was very versatile. He was an exceptional rebounder and above average in most categories, making him versatile.

A superstar? A star? A franchise player?

Wait, maybe I am being trolled. No one can have watched him and thought that he was a superstar.

edit: grammar

[7_cody]

Calling Odom a role player and not worth mentioning. I asked if you considered Bosh the same...and then you went on some diatribe about Bosh being a franchise player..etc.

But I'm asking you if you think you would talk about the 12 Heat or 13 Heat as..."Lebron and Wade and role players"

If so, I have no issue. I'm not arguing with you...I'm trying to understand your definition of a role player.

That is all.

And regardless of what you label it...the Lakers frontline in 2010 was stacked.

Bosh was a franchise player, actually. He is now a role player.

[DMAVS41]

Bosh was a franchise player, actually. He is now a role player.

Ok...but what they do in the past is not relevant. It's about what they do on the team in question.

You don't get extra points from Bosh because he used to average 24/10. On the Heat the last 2 years...he's been about as good as Odom was in 09 and 10.

That was my point.

That would be like me saying..."well, Odom used to put up 19/12/4 in the playoffs when he was the 2nd option"..."therefore he's more than a role player or whatever label you want to use"

The point is that as the 3rd best player on a team...Bosh and Odom have had very similar impacts overall and deserve to be put in the same group.

[andgar923]

I'd actually take Odom>>> Bosh

Bosh is a better more consistent scorer but Odom gives you so much more to disrupt teams.

He's much more versatile than Bosh.

People can go ahead and start posting 'stats' but they won't truly show the impact Odom brings with his versatility. He opens up the court, he was the Lakers' most dangerous passer, better defender than Bosh.

They both also suffer from consistency, but at least Odom gives you more when his shot isn't dropping.

[andgar923]

Ok...but what they do in the past is not relevant. It's about what they do on the team in question.

You don't get extra points from Bosh because he used to average 24/10. On the Heat the last 2 years...he's been about as good as Odom was in 09 and 10.

That was my point.

That would be like me saying..."well, Odom used to put up 19/12/4 in the playoffs when he was the 2nd option"..."therefore he's more than a role player or whatever label you want to use"

The point is that as the 3rd best player on a team...Bosh and Odom have had very similar impacts overall and deserve to be put in the same group.

Odom was actually a franchise player in the beginning. Pat Riley wanted to make him a franchise player but he couldn't pass up on Shaq.

[DMAVS41]

I'd actually take Odom>>> Bosh

Bosh is a better more consistent scorer but Odom gives you so much more to disrupt teams.

He's much more versatile than Bosh.

People can go ahead and start posting 'stats' but they won't truly show the impact Odom brings with his versatility. He opens up the court, he was the Lakers' most dangerous passer, better defender than Bosh.

They both also suffer from consistency, but at least Odom gives you more when his shot isn't dropping.

As a third option I'd probably lean towards Odom over Bosh, but it would depend on team need and role.

[DMAVS41]

Odom was actually a franchise player in the beginning. Pat Riley wanted to make him a franchise player but he couldn't pass up on Shaq.

I don't think Odom was ever capable of being as good as Bosh as the best player on a team.

I don't think Odom was a ever a franchise player.

A player capable of averaging something like 20/12/5 for a few regular seasons on average to bad teams? Absolutely, but I think Bosh has a clear advantage as being the main guy on a team.

That, of course, means nothing for these conversations though.

[andgar923]

People are forgetting the 'team' impact.

What I mean is, how do certain players fit inside the team's concept. If you put Bosh and Gasol together the may not have worked out. But Gasol and Odom together form one of the best front courts in the history of the game. Their versatility gave teams nightmares. They were perhaps the most potent front court since CWeb and Divacs flanked by McHale/Parrish that's the level that they are 'together'.

If we took Parrish alone, chances are he isn't a hall of fame player. But put him in the situation he ended up, he's a perfect fit. Same with Odom and Gasol who for years had the best front court in the NBA. They made the triangle offense a potent weapon and versatile system.

One can even argue that both of them on the team is like having prime Shaq. Because the defense is always on their heels (specially bigs). When they played together it was beautiful to watch whenever they ran the triangle. They were simply hard to matchup and guard.

[Mr. Jabbar]

what stats dont tell you is that kobe screwed montanas mom tho

[andgar923]

I don't think Odom was ever capable of being as good as Bosh as the best player on a team.

I don't think Odom was a ever a franchise player.

A player capable of averaging something like 20/12/5 for a few regular seasons on average to bad teams? Absolutely, but I think Bosh has a clear advantage as being the main guy on a team.

That, of course, means nothing for these conversations though.

Again, numbers can be misleading when it comes to Odom.

His impact would be as a passing big that disrupts an offense. He was great as a Clipper. He was clearly the team's franchise player and star, but he was young and the Clips were young and without proper guidance.

He may not always get the assist, but one could see the energy he brought when he was on the floor running the offense, how the ball moved much much better. Young Odom used to also guard multiple positions on the floor well, including the PG position. I'v yet to see Bosh do a great job on big men, let alone wing players which perhaps only KG could do.

I even remember Pat comparing him to Magic at one point, others were echoing the same sentiments as well because he was that good.

[branslowski]

Nah, Lakers frontline wasn't stacked...Gasol was the only consistant player on that frontline...How that one player being consistant makes the whole frontline stacked is beyond me.

Artest 11ppg 39% 4reb (stackedlol

Bynum 6ppg 3reb and then 8ppg 8reb (stackedlol

Odom 12ppg 8reb and then 9ppg 7reb (how's this not role player numbers? Is this All-star numbers?)

^^^The facts....Only Ppl with an agenda calls those stacked numbers...smh...(Que them ignoring those facts and then all of a sudden numbers don't matter:rolleyes: )

Also again, you brought up Bosh for no reason....I don't even discuss the dude, I know ur an actual closet LeBron homer so I get why you did it actually, but I'm not one of the ppl claiming Bosh was great during his recent playoff run, you must of been arguing with a LeBron hater or somethin during one of ur split personality post. Talkin to you Dmavs


Also Andgar, I'm not discussing Odoms whole career....He was a role player during Lakers titles...Just facts. The team was Kobe/Gasol and Role players...Facts above show that.

[DMAVS41]

Nah, Lakers frontline wasn't stacked...Gasol was the only consistant player on that frontline...How that one player being consistant makes the whole frontline stacked is beyond me.

Artest 11ppg 39% 4reb (stackedlol

Bynum 6ppg 3reb and then 8ppg 8reb (stackedlol

Odom 12ppg 8reb and then 9ppg 7reb (how's this not role player numbers? Is this All-star numbers?)

^^^The facts....Only Ppl with an agenda calls those stacked numbers...smh...(Que them ignoring those facts and then all of a sudden numbers don't matter:rolleyes: )

Also again, you brought up Bosh for no reason....I don't even discuss the dude, I know ur an actual closet LeBron homer so I get why you did it actually, but I'm not one of the ppl claiming Bosh was great during his recent playoff run, you must of been arguing with a LeBron hater or somethin during one of ur split personality post. Talkin to you Dmavs


Also Andgar, I'm not discussing Odoms whole career....He was a role player during Lakers titles...Just facts. The team was Kobe/Gasol and Role players...Facts above show that.

Can you name a better front line than what the Lakers had in 2010...and again...stop removing Gasol

You can't just remove Gasol...Gasol is the main reason why it was a stacked frontline.

And stop lying about numbers. Odom never averaged 9/7 in 09 or 10 in the playoffs. What the **** are you talking about?

[branslowski]

This n!gga Andgar just said Gasol and Odom formed the best frontcourt in NBA history since Parrish and McHale? :facepalm

And let me guess, numbers don't matter now, we just have to take ur word for it right? Lol, close ur mouth, ur agendas leaking.

[andgar923]

Nah, Lakers frontline wasn't stacked...Gasol was the only consistant player on that frontline...How that one player being consistant makes the whole frontline stacked is beyond me.

Artest 11ppg 39% 4reb (stackedlol

Bynum 6ppg 3reb and then 8ppg 8reb (stackedlol

Odom 12ppg 8reb and then 9ppg 7reb (how's this not role player numbers? Is this All-star numbers?)

^^^The facts....Only Ppl with an agenda calls those stacked numbers...smh...(Que them ignoring those facts and then all of a sudden numbers don't matter:rolleyes: )

Also again, you brought up Bosh for no reason....I don't even discuss the dude, I know ur an actual closet LeBron homer so I get why you did it actually, but I'm not one of the ppl claiming Bosh was great during his recent playoff run, you must of been arguing with a LeBron hater or somethin during one of ur split personality post. Talkin to you Dmavs


Also Andgar, I'm not discussing Odoms whole career....He was a role player during Lakers titles...Just facts. The team was Kobe/Gasol and Role players...Facts above show that.

Lamar basically had his foot in the all star team almost every season he was a Laker. You're making it seem as if he was a chump when he wasn't. Again, LO's numbers in this instance are misleading.

He opened up the floor for the Lakers, set up Kobe and Gasol, was their most potent and dangerous passer. So even if his pass didn't directly lead to an assist it ultimately got them a better shot. And we're also not including his HEIGHT in tandem with Gasol's.

While neither are great shot blockers per se, their combined length brought much difficulties for teams.

People wanna talk about the lack of good pgs the Lakers had, Gasol and Odom were basically PGs by default. The triangle offense can be ran without a traditional pg from the post because it is designed to do so. They were a perfect fit for the triangle, can't think of other players playing together aside from Divac and Webber in the past 20 isn years that could've done a better job. And even then, I'd take Gasol and Odom>> Divac and Web cause Divac was older and both Gasol and Odom can penetrate, spot up, post and pass.

i think somebody posted the stats a while back, but the stats with Gasol and Odom together and Kobe out, are crazy

[andgar923]

This n!gga Andgar just said Gasol and Odom formed the best frontcourt in NBA history since Parrish and McHale? :facepalm

And let me guess, numbers don't matter now, we just have to take ur word for it right? Lol, close ur mouth, ur agendas leaking.

Give me a more multi dimensional front court that's a threat from anywhere on the court.

And don't misquote me.

I said since Divac and Webber

[branslowski]

Can you name a better front line than what the Lakers had in 2010...and again...stop removing Gasol

You can't just remove Gasol...Gasol is the main reason why it was a stacked frontline.

And stop lying about numbers. Odom never averaged 9/7 in 09 or 10 in the playoffs. What the **** are you talking about?

:facepalm

Do you understand English? Again, when you say a frontline is stacked, wen in reality only Gasol is great and the others are inconsistent role players, how does that make the whole frontline stacked?

Thats like saying Mavs frontline was stacked because Dirk was great...:facepalm

And my bad...Odom 9ppg 8reb in 10'...12ppg 9reb in 09'...Stacked son.:facepalm

[branslowski]

Give me a more multi dimensional front court that's a threat from anywhere on the court.

And don't misquote me.

I said since Divac and Webber

So one of the Greatest frontcourt duos had Odom coming off of the Bench during title runs? Had Odom avg Role player numbers? Oh I forgot, numbers don't matter for this argument...how convient....

[PJR]

Pat Riley on Lamar Odom

"He was one of the most unique players that I have ever seen. He had great speed; he was a great passer with an incredible 7-foot wingspan. He also had the ability to handle the basketball. He just reminds me so much of Magic. In fact, he is the only player to come into this league who had the ability to play like Earvin 'Magic' Johnson."



I watched Lamar Odom put up like a 30 point triple double against the Sacramento Kings in '04, when he was with the Heat.

He aint no damn role player.

When Lamar Odom is featured as a 'role player' on your team, then your team is quite formidable.

[DMAVS41]

:facepalm

Do you understand English? Again, when you say a frontline is stacked, wen in reality only Gasol is great and the others are inconsistent role players, how does that make the whole frontline stacked?

Thats like saying Mavs frontline was stacked because Dirk was great...:facepalm

And my bad...Odom 9ppg 8reb in 10'...12ppg 9reb in 09'...Stacked son.:facepalm

The Mavs frontline with marion, chandler, and Dirk is stacked... that is pretty ****ing great.

But that again misses the point. We are talking about this from the Kobe perspective. Not from the Gasol perspective.

You continue to ignore that.

Gasol, Odom, Artest, and Bynum was a stacked front line in 2010.

Was it stacked if you remove Gasol? Of course not...but removing Gasol to talk about Kobe's frontline makes no sense.

[branslowski]

I watched Lamar Odom put up like a 30 point triple double against the Sacramento Kings in '04, when he was with the Heat.

He aint no damn role player.

When Lamar Odom is featured as a 'role player' on your team, then your team is quite formidable.

For the 10th time, I'm discussing Odom during the 09-10 title runs...:facepalm

I'm gettin trolled ain't I?:coleman:

[branslowski]

The Mavs frontline with marion, chandler, and Dirk is stacked... that is pretty ****ing great.

But that again misses the point. We are talking about this from the Kobe perspective. Not from the Gasol perspective.

You continue to ignore that.

Gasol, Odom, Artest, and Bynum was a stacked front line in 2010.

Was it stacked if you remove Gasol? Of course not...but removing Gasol to talk about Kobe's frontline makes no sense.

The other day you said Dirk won with less....But to fit ur agenda, now the mavs frontline was stacked?...:lol

How can you name Bynum, Odom, and Artest, and then look at their production and say stacked?

So basically if you have one good player on a frontcourt, that means the whole frontline is stacked?:biggums:

[DMAVS41]

The other day you said Dirk won with less....But to fit ur agenda, now the mavs frontline was stacked?...:lol

How can you name Bynum, Odom, and Artest, and then look at their production and say stacked?

So basically if you have one good player on a frontcourt, that means the whole frontline is stacked?:biggums:

Dirk did win with less. It's stacked if you include Dirk...but you don't include Dirk when talking about his help.

You trolling now I hope.

Notice how you again remove Gasol from Kobe's front line. Why? Because with Gasol that front line is stacked. Why? Because Gasol was the best post player in the 10 playoffs.

[PJR]

For the 10th time, I'm discussing Odom during the 09-10 title runs...:facepalm

I'm gettin trolled ain't I?:coleman:

You're pretty dense, kid.

That's actually the point you're failing to grasp. When Odom is featured as a role player on your team, then by that very definition you're team is 'stacked'.

What do you think, that unless a guy isn't putting up high volume numbers, he's isn't of significant importance, or extremely talented in his own right? Uh, no. That's not how basketball works. Odom sacrificed his game and his numbers, coming off the bench as a 6th man for the betterment of Lakers.

[Nastradamus]

A good point that should be taken into consideration IMO. Bradford Doolittle wrote an article comparing Melo to Bernard King recently. In it, he points out how teams in the 80s had about 10 extra possessions per game. Its also been pointed out that Gs had higher FG% in those days. Both of those should come into consideration when discussing MJ vs. a modern player.

[branslowski]

Dirk did win with less. It's stacked if you include Dirk...but you don't include Dirk when talking about his help.

You trolling now I hope.

Notice how you again remove Gasol from Kobe's front line. Why? Because with Gasol that front line is stacked. Why? Because Gasol was the best post player in the 10 playoffs.

:facepalm

Did I say it was Kobe and Role players dumbass?..NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, I F*CKING SAID THE TEAM WAS KOBE/GASOL AND ROLE PLAYERS WHICH IT F*CKING WAS! The whole frontline wasn't stacked, only GASOL was good, the rest had subpar production and the FACTS shows this.

WTF is wrong with you?:biggums:

[DMAVS41]

:facepalm

Did I say it was Kobe and Role players dumbass?..NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, I F*CKING SAID THE TEAM WAS KOBE/GASOL AND ROLE PLAYERS WHICH IT F*CKING WAS! The whole frontline wasn't stacked, only GASOL was good, the rest had subpar production and the FACTS shows this.

WTF is wrong with you?:biggums:

WTF is wrong with you?

Gasol is part of the front line you ****ing moron.

Just because you decide to call a team a certain way...doesn't mean it makes any sense.

We are talking about Kobe's help. Therefore you should talk about all of his help.

In terms of just evaluating a frontline...I'd say Gasol, Odom, Artest, and Bynum was stacked in 2010.

They could play both sides of the ball extremely well...and that front line included the best post player in the 2010 playoffs in Gasol...

[TheCorporation]

He's [Kobe] been to the NBA Finals 7 times , denial of his greatness is delusion

*looks at Carmello Anthony avatar

http://weknowgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/50-cent-picard-gif.gif

[Cali Syndicate]

ISH, where Lamar odom is a role player and Kobe is the only players who's better than his stats suggest.

[DMAVS41]

ISH, where Lamar odom is a role player and Kobe is the only players who's better than his stats suggest.

It's fine to call him a role player as long as you define what that is.

That is why I brought up Bosh.

You can label things however you like...it just has to be consistent and we have to distinguish between a guy like Lamar Odom and Shannon Brown for example.

If Odom is a role player...what is Brown?

[zoom17]

He Wasn't good enough to start like Lebron

and Kobe stans need to get over the Lebron> Kobe thing

Fixed

[SwayDizzle]

what stats dont tell you is that kobe screwed montanas mom tho
legit cracked me up

[zoom17]

Forgot to post this Kobe stans get mad to no end with this

http://nbanewssource.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/a0cf0f1ffd84b82bf342377f86272486_large.png

[Cali Syndicate]

It's fine to call him a role player as long as you define what that is.

That is why I brought up Bosh.

You can label things however you like...it just has to be consistent and we have to distinguish between a guy like Lamar Odom and Shannon Brown for example.

If Odom is a role player...what is Brown?

Take chandler for example, I'd like to think he's more than a simple role player despite barely being a 10 and 10 player. Because despite his stats, he also anchors a defense. His impact on the game exceeds what his box score indicates.

Same with Odom. despite his stats, he was more than just a role player. Role players are expendable for the most part. Odom not so much. There was a reason people kept referring to odom as the xfactor during the lakers back to back.

If odom is a role player, then basically, we have superstars, stars and then everyone else is basically a role player which isn't true.

[DMAVS41]

Take chandler for example, I'd like to think he's more than a simple role player despite barely being a 10 and 10 player. Because despite his stats, he also anchors a defense. His impact on the game exceeds what his box score indicates.

Same with Odom. despite his stats, he was more than just a role player. Role players are expendable for the most part. Odom not so much. There was a reason people kept referring to odom as the xfactor during the lakers back to back.

If odom is a role player, then basically, we have superstars, stars and then everyone else is basically a role player which isn't true.


Totally agree with the bold. No matter what you call a player...you still have to distinguish Tyson Chandler (clearly merely a role player on branslowksi's criteria) and JJ Barea for example.

Which is why we must define our terms so we know what we mean.

[SwayDizzle]

Odom was more than a role player for us. He sacrificed a part of his game to fit the role and adjusted very well to suit what was needed on those Laker championship teams. He's one of the most unselfish players I have ever seen ball. He adored Kobe and would walk on fire for him (creating a perfect balance with Gasol for how alpha Kobe is). He would never be labeled consistent; had moments of both brilliance and sub-par production. However, I will agree with some posters in this thread that say the Gasol and Odom front court tandem was borderline amazing (beyond stats).

If there's anyone to blame for the Lakers fall from the top, it's Bynum thinking he could be number one. He completely threw off the balance which made this Lakers core so great. His injuries limited him to a role that was perfect for the team. Then he got healthy and thought he could do more.

I wish the Lakers front office had gotten rid of Bynum after the 2010 championship. Gasol must have hated his new role after that season and Odom was crushed by him being put on the trade block. It was great while it lasted, too bad...

Oh and there are tons of similarities between Odom's role in those Laker championships and Bosh's role on the recent Heat championships. Both sacrificed for the greater good of the team (both not role players).

[TheMilkyBarKid]

Odom was more than a role player for us. He sacrificed a part of his game to fit the role and adjusted very well to suit what was needed on those Laker championship teams. He's one of the most unselfish players I have ever seen ball. He adored Kobe and would walk on fire for him (creating a perfect balance with Gasol for how alpha Kobe is). He would never be labeled consistent; had moments of both brilliance and sub-par production. However, I will agree with some posters in this thread that say the Gasol and Odom front court tandem was borderline amazing (beyond stats).

If there's anyone to blame for the Lakers fall from the top, it's Bynum thinking he could be number one. He completely threw off the balance which made this Lakers core so great. His injuries limited him to a role that was perfect for the team. Then he got healthy and thought he could do more.

I wish the Lakers front office had gotten rid of Bynum after the 2010 championship. Gasol must have hated his new role after that season and Odom was crushed by him being put on the trade block. It was great while it lasted, too bad...

Oh and there are tons of similarities between Odom's role in those Laker championships and Bosh's role on the recent Heat championships. Both sacrificed for the greater good of the team (both not role players).
I totally agree with what you said abouth odom/gasol, who knows what wouldve happened in game 6 if bosh wasn't there for those 2 clutch blocks in ot...
However, I do believe Lakers could havr done a better job of working Bynum into their game, dude was/is talented as hell, plus you can't teach size. Its a shame they let that go for a year rental of dh, even though Bynum has done nothing but collect pay checks since

[zoom17]

*looks at Carmello Anthony avatar

http://weknowgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/50-cent-picard-gif.gif

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Forgot to post this Kobe stans get mad to no end with this

http://nbanewssource.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/a0cf0f1ffd84b82bf342377f86272486_large.png
Regular season
Kobe: 28,379 minutes
Lebron: 30,374 minutes

Playoffs
Kobe: 5,085 minutes
Lebron: 5,954 minutes

[SwayDizzle]

I totally agree with what you said abouth odom/gasol, who knows what wouldve happened in game 6 if bosh wasn't there for those 2 clutch blocks in ot...
However, I do believe Lakers could havr done a better job of working Bynum into their game, dude was/is talented as hell, plus you can't teach size. Its a shame they let that go for a year rental of dh, even though Bynum has done nothing but collect pay checks since
There's no disputing Bynum's talent. When healthy, I personally think he is capable of destroying Howard for the number 1 center spot. It's his ego that caused problems with the balance of the Lakers team at the time. If Kobe had retired early, then yes Bynum should have been his replacement, but then Gasol would have to leave imo.

[TheCorporation]

Regular season
Kobe: 28,379 minutes
Lebron: 30,374 minutes

Playoffs
Kobe: 5,085 minutes
Lebron: 5,954 minutes

So sorry Kobe wasn't good enough to start or get big minutes :confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:facepalm

The two teams the Lakers faced in the Finals had at worst equally "stacked" frontlines aside from that Kobe had the most "unstacked" backcourt support in the entire league.

What year was it that Odom should have made an all star team and should he have replaced on the squad?

[G-Funk]

So sorry Kobe wasn't good enough to start or get big minutes :confusedshrug:
well actually he was, unfortunately, The league was not fond of teens coming in the NBA and taking a vets minutes, specially at a guard position and the fact that there was a great all-star in the team. Had Kobe gone to a piece of shit team like the Cavs, he would have more than likely started, all depend on how the coach for that team felt. But ur probably too young to know.

[zoom17]

So sorry Kobe wasn't good enough to start or get big minutes :confusedshrug:

:oldlol: Lebron>Kobe Now, five years from now and forever!!!!!!!

[riseagainst]

So Lebron scored more points than Kobe by a certain age because he played more minutes?

Go figure.

:oldlol:

[ralph_i_el]

Efficiency goes down with volume. Who else has averaged 35.4 in a season ? That is pretty crazy man. Besides, a solid shooting guard averages in the .45-.5 range anyway. You're dissecting 3-4% differences?

to be fair 3-4% difference is about 7-9% in efficiency. (.49/.45)-1= 8.89%

but that's also accounted for by the fact that Kobe has taken a metric ****TON of 3's in his career (around 8 per game for some years) which means TS% is a better way to evaluate him (as it is in every situation...)

[Lebron23]

So Lebron scored more points than Kobe by a certain age because he played more minutes?

Go figure.

:oldlol:

Because a teenage Lebron was better than a teenage Kobe.

[7_cody]

Ok...but what they do in the past is not relevant. It's about what they do on the team in question.

You don't get extra points from Bosh because he used to average 24/10. On the Heat the last 2 years...he's been about as good as Odom was in 09 and 10.

That was my point.

That would be like me saying..."well, Odom used to put up 19/12/4 in the playoffs when he was the 2nd option"..."therefore he's more than a role player or whatever label you want to use"

The point is that as the 3rd best player on a team...Bosh and Odom have had very similar impacts overall and deserve to be put in the same group.

Ok, fair enough, but subjectively speaking and I am sure that many would agree with me, but Odom would not have been as good as Bosh as the franchise player for the Raptors. In other words, Bosh is franchise-caliber, even though that is not his current role, and Odom is not

[7_cody]

There's no disputing Bynum's talent. When healthy, I personally think he is capable of destroying Howard for the number 1 center spot. It's his ego that caused problems with the balance of the Lakers team at the time. If Kobe had retired early, then yes Bynum should have been his replacement, but then Gasol would have to leave imo.

His lack of hunger and poor work ethic are holding him back, along with injuries. If healthy and hungry, he can be way better than Dwight.

[DMAVS41]

Ok, fair enough, but subjectively speaking and I am sure that many would agree with me, but Odom would not have been as good as Bosh as the franchise player for the Raptors. In other words, Bosh is franchise-caliber, even though that is not his current role, and Odom is not

I agree with that as well. I said that.

But in terms of being the 3rd option on a championship team...I seen no reason to favor Bosh over Odom overall. It would come down to fit and role.

[7_cody]

I agree with that as well. I said that.

But in terms of being the 3rd option on a championship team...I seen no reason to favor Bosh over Odom overall. It would come down to fit and role.

I see what you mean. Personally, I would take trade 2008 Odom for 2008 Bosh straight up in a heartbeat.

We would get worse in the rebounding category, which actually probably won us the championships that year, BUT we would get a consistent player that plays well often, not just some times, and that player would do wonders for our spacing allowing both Kobe and Gasol to play in the post better