'96 - '98 Jordan v.s. 2008 - 2010 Kobe v.s. 2011 - 2013 LeBron

[SamuraiSWISH]

Cast your vote, and rank. Best to worst.

MJ age 33 - 35
3x Rings, 2x MVPs, 3x Fmvps

Kobe age 29 - 31
2x Rings, 1 MVP, 2x Fmvps

LeBron age 26 - 28
2x Rings, 2x MVPs, 2x Fmvps

Who you got, and why?

If someone wanted to crunch the regular season, playoff stats, the accumulative averages, team records, and Final opponents record faced ... be my guest.

[riseagainst]

I think we can almost assume that this thread will be made again after next season. "2012-2014 lebron".

[aj1987]

MJ during the second three-peat:
Regular Season - 29.6 PPG 6.1 RPG 4.0 APG 1.9 SPG 0.5 BPG on 48.2/36.9/81.5; 22.9 FGA and 56% TS

Playoffs - 31.6 PPG 6.0 RPG 4.1 APG 1.6 SPG 0.6 BPG on 45.9/29.7/81.9; 24.7 FGA and 54.3% TS

3x NBA Champion
3x FMVP
2x MVP

1996 Chicago Bulls:
Regular Season - 72-10

Playoffs:
Won NBA Finals (4-2) versus Seattle SuperSonics (64-18)
Won NBA Eastern Conference Finals (4-0) versus Orlando Magic (60-22)
Won NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals (4-1) versus New York Knicks (47-35)
Won NBA Eastern Conference First Round (3-0) versus Miami Heat (42-40)

1997 Chicago Bulls:
Regular Season - 69-13

Playoffs:
Won NBA Finals (4-2) versus Utah Jazz (64-18)
Won NBA Eastern Conference Finals (4-1) versus Miami Heat (61-21)
Won NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals (4-1) versus Atlanta Hawks (56-26)
Won NBA Eastern Conference First Round (3-0) versus Washington Bullets (44-38)

1998 Chicago Bulls:
Regular Seasons - 62-20

Playoffs:
Won NBA Finals (4-2) versus Utah Jazz (62-20)
Won NBA Eastern Conference Finals (4-3) versus Indiana Pacers (58-24)
Won NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals (4-1) versus Charlotte Hornets (51-32)
Won NBA Eastern Conference First Round (3-0) versus New Jersey Nets (43-39)

Kobe Bryant during the "Gasol Era":
Regular Season - 27.4 PPG 5.6 RPG 5.1 APG 1.6 SPG 0.6 BPG on 46.1/34.9/83.6; 21.0 FGA and 56% TS

Playoffs - 29.8 PPG 5.7 RPG 5.5 APG 1.6 SPG 0.7 BPG on 46.4/34.4/84.5; 22.4 FGA and 56.9% TS

2x NBA Champion
2x FMVP
1x MVP

2008 Los Angeles Lakers:
Regular Season - 57-25

Playoffs:
Lost NBA Finals (4-2) versus Boston Celtics (66-16)
Won NBA Western Conference Finals (4-1) versus San Antonio Spurs (56-26)
Won NBA Western Conference Semifinals (4-2) versus Utah Jazz (54-28)
Won NBA Western Conference First Round (4-0) versus Denver Nuggets (50-32)

2009 Los Angeles Lakers:
Regular Season - 65-17

Playoffs:
Won NBA Finals (4-1) versus Orlando Magic (59-23)
Won NBA Western Conference Finals (4-2) versus Denver Nuggets (54-28)
Won NBA Western Conference Semifinals (4-3) versus Houston Rockets (53-29)
Won NBA Western Conference First Round (4-1) versus Utah Jazz (48-34)

2010 Los Angeles Lakers:
Regular Season - 57-25

Playoffs:
Won NBA Finals (4-3) versus Boston Celtics (50-32)
Won NBA Western Conference Finals (4-2) versus Phoenix Suns (54-28)
Won NBA Western Conference Semifinals (4-0) versus Utah Jazz (53-29)
Won NBA Western Conference First Round (4-2) versus Oklahoma City Thunder (50-32)



Lebron during the "Heat Era":
Regular Season - 26.9 PPG 7.8 RPG 6.9 APG 1.7 SPG 0.8 BPG on 53.5/36.5/76.1; 18.5 FGA and 61.3% TS

Playoffs - 26.7 PPG 8.9 RPG 6.0 APG 1.8 SPG 0.9 BPG on 48.7/33.1/75.8; 19.5 FGA and 57.5% TS

2x NBA Champion
2x FMVP
2x MVP

2011 Miami Heat:
Regular Season - 58-24

Playoffs:
Lost NBA Finals (4-2) versus Dallas Mavericks (57-25)
Won NBA Eastern Conference Finals (4-1) versus Chicago Bulls (62-20)
Won NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals (4-1) versus Boston Celtics (56-26)
Won NBA Eastern Conference First Round (4-1) versus Philadelphia 76ers (41-41)

2012 Miami Heat (Lockout Shortened):
Regular Season - 46-20


Playoffs:
Won NBA Finals (4-1) versus Oklahoma City Thunder (47-19)
Won NBA Eastern Conference Finals (4-3) versus Boston Celtics (39-27)
Won NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals (4-2) versus Indiana Pacers (42-24)
Won NBA Eastern Conference First Round (4-1) versus New York Knicks (36-30)

2013 Miami Heat:
Regular Season - 66-16


Playoffs:
Won NBA Finals (4-3) versus San Antonio Spurs (58-24)
Won NBA Eastern Conference Finals (4-3) versus Indiana Pacers (49-32)
Won NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals (4-1) versus Chicago Bulls (45-37)
Won NBA Eastern Conference First Round (4-0) versus Milwaukee Bucks(38-44)

Copy+Paste from basketball-reference.com

[Heavincent]

Jordan was probably the best but Kobe is my personal favorite.

[riseagainst]

MJ during the second three-peat:
Regular Season - 29.6 PPG 6.1 RPG 4.0 APG 1.9 SPG 0.5 BPG on 48.2/36.9/81.5; 22.9 FGA and 56% TS

Playoffs - 31.6 PPG 6.0 RPG 4.1 APG 1.6 SPG 0.6 BPG on 45.9/29.7/81.9; 24.7 FGA and 54.3% TS

3x NBA Champion
3x FMVP
2x MVP

Kobe Bryant during the "Gasol Era":
Regular Season - 27.4 PPG 5.6 RPG 5.1 APG 1.6 SPG 0.6 BPG on 46.1/34.9/83.6; 21.0 FGA and 56% TS

Playoffs - 29.8 PPG 5.7 RPG 5.5 APG 1.6 SPG 0.7 BPG on 46.4/34.4/84.5; 22.4 FGA and 56.9% TS

2x NBA Champion
2x FMVP
1x MVP

Lebron during the "Heat Era":
Regular Season - 26.9 PPG 7.8 RPG 6.9 APG 1.7 SPG 0.8 BPG on 53.5/36.5/76.1; 18.5 FGA and 61.3% TS

Playoffs - 26.7 PPG 8.9 RPG 6.0 APG 1.8 SPG 0.9 BPG on 48.7/33.1/75.8; 19.5 FGA and 57.5% TS

2x NBA Champion
2x FMVP
2x MVP

you are a huge tool and a phakkit. :oldlol:

[aj1987]

you are a huge tool and a phakkit. :oldlol:


If someone wanted to crunch the regular season, playoff stats, the accumulative averages, team records, and Final opponents record faced ... be my guest.

You are one sad little man. Hope Lebron winning next year won't drive you to commit suicide. Now go back into your hole.

[Electric Slide]

1. Lebron
2. Jordan
3. Kobe

But this is ISH, so I expect this to be the popular vote.

1. Jordan
2. Kobe






3. Lebron



Peak Jordan => Peak Lebron > 96-98 Jordan > Peak Kobe

[NumberSix]

1. LeBron
2. Jordan
3. Kobe

[Doranku]

1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. LeBron

[2010splash]

LOL at Kobe being anything other than last in this comparison.

'96 Jordan > '11 LeBron and '12 and '13 LeBron > '97 and '98 Jordan.

Kobe is last. '08 and '10 both feature two of the all-time worst Finals performances.

[TheMarkMadsen]

LOL at Kobe being anything other than last in this comparison.

'96 Jordan > '11 LeBron and '12 and '13 LeBron > '97 and '98 Jordan.

Kobe is last. '08 and '10 both feature two of the all-time worst Finals performances.

2011 Lebron over 97 & 98 Jordan, 09 & 10 Kobe?


:roll:

[Deuce Bigalow]

LOL at Kobe being anything other than last in this comparison.

'96 Jordan > '11 LeBron and '12 and '13 LeBron > '97 and '98 Jordan.

Kobe is last. '08 and '10 both feature two of the all-time worst Finals performances.
Lol at Kobe's '08 and '10 Finals being two of the worst finals performances of alltime, especially '10.

Kobe 2010 Finals: 29-8-4 / 53 TS %

The two worst finals performances by a superstar are by your very own Lebron James in '07 and '11.

[2010splash]

2011 Lebron over 97 & 98 Jordan, 09 & 10 Kobe?


:roll:
I didn't say 2011 LeBron > 1997 or 1998 Jordan.

Also, I don't know why you so easily dismiss the idea of 2010 Kobe being near last on this list. First off, his regular season that year was the worst out of all these players. Then you have the 6/24 Game 7 in the Finals.

[I<3NBA]

hey can someone crunch their numbers (and accomplishemnts) for when they were without second solid options? for Jordan, that was pre-Pippen, for Kobe pre-Gasol, and for Lebron pre Heat. i'm interested to see how they fared.

i'm thinking Kobe's numbers will be boosted a bit.

[tpols]

Lebron would be clear number one if not for 2011 which is the worst year for any of the three. I'd say 1a. Jordan 1b. Kobe 3. Lebron.

[2010splash]

Lol at Kobe's '08 and '10 Finals being two of the worst finals performances of alltime, especially '10.

Kobe 2010 Finals: 29-8-4 / 53 TS %

The two worst finals performances by a superstar are by your very own Lebron James in '07 and '11.
Only Kobe stans prop up total points as if it's the only thing that matters.

2008 Kobe - 40 FG%, 7/22 in closeout game 6 Finals, gave up biggest 2nd half lead in Finals history in game 4 on his own floor, suffered biggest blowout loss in closeout game in Finals history in game 6, etc.

2010 Kobe - again 40 FG% in the Finals with the infamous, epically bad 6/24 shooting performance in game 7.

Sorry yo, but nothing LeBron did in 2011 or as a 22 year old carrying an entire roster of D-League scrubs to the Finals against a stacked Spurs team in 2007 compares to that.

The order is LeBron 1st, Jordan 2nd, Kobe 3rd. Kobe's 2008 and 2010 are the lowest on this list.

[Soundwave]

1. Jordan
2. LeBron
3. Kobe

But LeBron/Kobe are quite close.

MJ is pretty much tops by default, leading your team to 3 titles is a lot better than 2 titles, there's just no sensible debate against that.

LeBron's 2011 makes it impossible for him to be no.1, that was one of the worst choke jobs in NBA Finals history.

[plowking]

2012 and 2013 Lebron are the best players in this comparison. Then 96 and 97 Jordan, then I'd throw in Kobe and 98 Jordan somewhere in between.

[Soundwave]

2012 and 2013 Lebron are the best players in this comparison. Then 96 and 97 Jordan, then I'd throw in Kobe and 98 Jordan somewhere in between.

The Heat would have 3 titles instead of 2 from the last three years with a '96-'98 Jordan on that roster.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Only Kobe stans prop up total points as if it's the only thing that matters.

2008 Kobe - 40 FG%, 7/22 in closeout game 6 Finals, gave up biggest 2nd half lead in Finals history in game 4 on his own floor, suffered biggest blowout loss in closeout game in Finals history in game 6, etc.

2010 Kobe - again 40 FG% in the Finals with the infamous, epically bad 6/24 shooting performance in game 7.

Sorry yo, but nothing LeBron did in 2011 or as a 22 year old carrying an entire roster of D-League scrubs to the Finals against a stacked Spurs team in 2007 compares to that.

The order is LeBron 1st, Jordan 2nd, Kobe 3rd. Kobe's 2008 and 2010 are the lowest on this list.
I gave Kobe's ppg, rpg, apg, and overall effiency for the entire series. You on the other hand posted fg% for the series, which doesn't include 3-point and freethrow shooting, and you also posted a single fg/fga box score from the close out games. Yeah I'm the one proping up a single stat when I posted his entire line, and you're the one factoring everything by choosing a single fg/fga boxscore and one stat-fg%...

[branslowski]

1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. LeBron

Only on ISH would 28ppg 8reb 4ast 2stl and 34ppg 7reb 6ast be considered worst ever Finals performance.:facepalm

LeBron is 3rd due to his quitting effort in 11' finals and his getting shutdown by Diaw and basically shooting open shots to only post 25ppg on 44% in 13' finals. Without trolling and pure facts and most important wat we watched, LeBron should be 3rd on everyones list.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Funny how the only people saying Kobe are well known hardcore Kobe stans. Lebron's 2011 Finals performance keeps him from being the best. I'd say it's

1) Jordan
2) Lebron
3) Kobe

but the dropoff after Lebron is much greater than it is between Jordan and Lebron.

[plowking]

The Heat would have 3 titles instead of 2 from the last three years with a '96-'98 Jordan on that roster.

No, they wouldn't have.

Jordan wouldn't have won this year. Hes not getting passed the Pacers with the front court the Heat have. The thing with Lebron was, he could switch on to David West, go down low, and actually rebound with the bigs.

What's Jordan going to do? Shut down West or Hibbert? He's not doing shit to either. Where as Lebron could at least do a job on West.

[tmacattack33]

Peak Lebron (2012 and 2013...and some would say 2009 in Cleveland when he was still the most athletic person on earth) is ahead of anything we've seen since Peak Shaq.

And it might be ahead of the second three peat MJ too. I don't know though, i can't say i'm an expert at what was happening in the league when i was like 10 yrs old and was a new fan of the game.

[nnn123]

2 of the guys on the list elevate their games during the playoffs, the other guy...."flops" under pressure. You can figure out who's better

[KG215]

Even though 2011 was a blackmark for LeBron, this version (peak LeBron) is still better than second 3-peat Jordan. I think you can make some sort of case for 2008 Kobe (the last year of his peak in my opinion; I think he had lost a step and was slightly worse in 2009 and 2010 than 2006-2008, but not by a lot or anything) over '98 Jordan, though.

But I'd go:

LeBron
Jordan
Kobe

[Rose'sACL]

Even though 2011 was a blackmark for LeBron, this version (peak LeBron) is still better than second 3-peat Jordan. I think you can make some sort of case for 2008 Kobe (the last year of his peak in my opinion; I think he had lost a step and was slightly worse in 2009 and 2010 than 2006-2008, but not by a lot or anything) over '98 Jordan, though.

But I'd go:

LeBron
Jordan
Kobe
you're unbiased most of the times. a very rare thing here.

[Droid101]

Why are you bolding the least FGA? That's pretty stupid.

[Droid101]

I didn't say 2011 LeBron > 1997 or 1998 Jordan.

Also, I don't know why you so easily dismiss the idea of 2010 Kobe being near last on this list. First off, his regular season that year was the worst out of all these players. Then you have the 6/24 Game 7 in the Finals.
You just earned a spot on my ignore list. Well done, idiot.

[Lebron23]

1. Jordan
2. LeBron
3. Kobe

But LeBron/Kobe are quite close.

MJ is pretty much tops by default, leading your team to 3 titles is a lot better than 2 titles, there's just no sensible debate against that.

LeBron's 2011 makes it impossible for him to be no.1, that was one of the worst choke jobs in NBA Finals history.


This guy became a huge Lebron hater since LBJ won his 2nd Finals MVP.

[Soundwave]

No, they wouldn't have.

Jordan wouldn't have won this year. Hes not getting passed the Pacers with the front court the Heat have. The thing with Lebron was, he could switch on to David West, go down low, and actually rebound with the bigs.

What's Jordan going to do? Shut down West or Hibbert? He's not doing shit to either. Where as Lebron could at least do a job on West.

LOL, this year's Pacers team was weak ass talent wise missing Granger. The '98 Pacers were far better, at least the Bulls actually beat them with Reggie Miller.

Jordan would actually make sure Bosh and Wade were involved in the offense and not just glorified spot up shooters and he would ride them if he had to get them to step their game up.

It's a f__king embarrassment the Heat let that Pacers team take them to 7 games.

[Lebron23]

Pacers are a much better team without Danny Granger. Heat beat the Pacer's with Granger last season. Wade was injured in the post season while Bosh was inconsistent in the playoffs.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Major Break Down, my opinion. Hope you enjoy ...

Accumulative accomplishments / hardware / resume of the 3 season stretch:

1) MJ
2) LeBron
3) Kobe

Regular Season Performance:

1) '96 MJ
2) '97 MJ
3) 2013 LeBron
4) 2k8 Kobe
5) 2012 LeBron
6) 2k9 Kobe
7) '98 MJ
8) 2k10 Kobe
9) 2011 LeBron

Post Season Performance (sans Finals):

1) 2k8 Kobe
2) '96 MJ
3) 2012 LeBron
4) '97 MJ
5) 2k10 Kobe
6) 2k9 Kobe
7) '98 MJ
8) 2013 LeBron
9) 2011 LeBron

Weakest Category
Finals Performance:

1) '97 MJ
2) 2012 LeBron
3) 2k9 Kobe
4) '98 MJ
5) 2013 LeBron
6) 2k8 Kobe
7) '96 MJ
8) 2k10 Kobe
9) 2011 LeBron

Competition Faced:

1) '97 MJ
2) '96 MJ
3) 2k8 Kobe
4) 2k10 Kobe
5) 2011 LeBron
6) 2012 LeBron
7) '98 MJ
8) '2k9 Kobe
9) 2013 LeBron

Reg Season Performance + Playoffs Performance + Finals Performance + Competition:

1) 2012 LeBron
2) '97 MJ
3) '96 MJ
4) 2k9 Kobe
5) 2013 LeBron
6) '98 MJ
7) 2k8 Kobe
8) 2k10 Kobe
9) 2011 LeBron

Abilities / Overall Game (not to be confused w/ production)

1) 2013 LeBron
2) 2012 LeBron
3) '96 MJ
4) 2k8 Kobe
5) '97 MJ
6) 2k9 Kobe
7) 2k10 Kobe
8) '98 MJ
10) 2011 LeBron

[plowking]

LOL, this year's Pacers team was weak ass talent wise missing Granger. The '98 Pacers were far better, at least the Bulls actually beat them with Reggie Miller.

Jordan would actually make sure Bosh and Wade were involved in the offense and not just glorified spot up shooters and he would ride them if he had to get them to step their game up.

It's a f__king embarrassment the Heat let that Pacers team take them to 7 games.

Yeah, Jordan has special powers and would have made Bosh and Wade score like crazy. Sure.
No.

Heat have an offense, it works, it gets wins, thats how we play. Jordan isn't doing anything to help with the weaknesses that we had against this years Pacers. Its about the build of the team, and Lebron does better to cover those weaknesses.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Yeah, Jordan has special powers and would have made Bosh and Wade score like crazy. Sure.
He didn't say he had special powers. Stop exaggerating in order to make what he said sound ridiculous. He said Bosh and Wade wouldn't be mannequins, as they often were in the 2013 playoffs.

MJ could utilize himself as a weapon off the ball, or playing an efficient scoring niche without dominating the ball by being a beast scoring option in the pinch post position on offense. His skills would allow others to flourish, as they did with Pippen and Kukoc ... yet he could still give you 30+ and take over when needed to win.

The only thing late 90's MJ can't do that LeBron provides is defensive versatility and rebounding. MJ playing off the ball would allow Wade the opportunity to do what he does best off the dribble. Even injured Wade could ball when the opportunity was given (Finals game 4) ... MJ would be a better fit offensively than LeBron. His game can flourish in different ways that doesn't make him redundant with Wade in the half court

[plowking]

The only thing late 90's MJ can't do that LeBron provides is defensive versatility and rebounding.

My whole point. With MJ on the team, they aren't making it passed Indiana and to the finals.

[Soundwave]

My whole point. With MJ on the team, they aren't making it passed Indiana and to the finals.

:oldlol: Pacers ain't sh_t. Miami should've beat them in 5 or 6 if they had any balls to finish the job.

[Doranku]

My whole point. With MJ on the team, they aren't making it passed Indiana and to the finals.

Such nonsense. The only reason that series was "close" was because the Heat were lackadaisical and simply looked bored at times. They won every must-win game by like +15 points, including an absolute embarrassment in Game 7.

I'm sorry, but Michael Jordan is not losing to a f*cking 49 win Paul George-led Indian Pacers with Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh, and Ray Allen.

That Pacers team has become so overrated it's unbelievable. Just because there are no other good teams in the East besides Miami doesn't mean we need to fabricate one.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Such nonsense. The only reason that series was "close" was because the Heat were lackadaisical and simply looked bored at times. They won every must-win game by like +15 points, including an absolute embarrassment in Game 7.

I'm sorry, but Michael Jordan is not losing to a f*cking 49 win Paul George-led Indian Pacers with Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh, and Ray Allen.

That Pacers team has become so overrated it's unbelievable. Just because there are no other good teams in the East besides Miami doesn't mean we need to fabricate one.
Plus all the injuries to other teams in the eastern conference. Let's not mince words, even the ancient 2013 Spurs who escaped the West due to OKC being hurt as well.

2013 LeBron and the Heat literally faced the worse competition of the 9 individual superstar seasons in question here. Without question the worst competition.

And I agree with the first part of your post too. Just because late 90's MJ doesn't provide the defensive versatility and rebounding of LeBron doesn't mean they couldn't make mince meat of the Paul George / Lance Stephenson Pacers in a heart beat.

Those two have no leadership or intelligence. Paul George I already feel is ridiculously overrated. MJ as already stated can fit his talents better to mesh with Wade and Bosh, who in turn would be given freedom to be themselves.

[Doranku]

Plus all the injuries to other teams in the eastern conference. Let's not mince words, even the ancient 2013 Spurs who escaped the West due to OKC being hurt as well.

2013 LeBron and the Heat literally faced the worse competition of the 9 individual superstar seasons in question here. Without question the worst competition.

And I agree with the first part of your post too. Just because late 90's MJ doesn't provide the defensive versatility and rebounding of LeBron doesn't mean they couldn't make mince meat of the Paul George / Lance Stephenson Pacers in a heart beat.

Those two have no leadership or intelligence. Paul George I already feel is ridiculously overrated. MJ as already stated can fit his talents better to mesh with Wade and Bosh, who in turn would be given freedom to be themselves.

The whole rebounding/defensive versatility argument is completely overblown in the first place. I'm sure LeBron's 7.3 rebounds/game against the Pacers really changed the course of the series... :rolleyes:

And the whole "defensive versatility" gimmick is just a fancy way of saying nothing. The only thing I remember about LeBron's supreme defensive versatility against the Pacers is when West abused him on the block.

Seriously though, how did this unique, unprecedented defensive versatility really impact the Pacers offense? Because George, West, and Hibbert all had good to great series. Are we supposed to believe that these guys would have played even better if it weren't for the great LeBron? :oldlol: Give me a break.

[pauk]

Dont know what Kobe is doing there, yes he is close... but clearly has no case over Jordan/Lebron, i mean both got more accolades while being more productive...

[SamuraiSWISH]

Dont know what Kobe is doing there, yes he is close... but clearly has no case over Jordan/Lebron, i mean both got more accolades while being more productive...
:biggums:

Kobe's level of play, and even his accolades, productivity, and competition faced certainly deserve to have his 3 year run to be mentioned with late 90's MJ and current LeBron.

IMO all three of these are comparable and near the same level. No one is significantly more dominant over the other. If early 2000s Shaq or early 90s Jordan were being used as a comparison that's a different story. Those two shit on all three of these runs.

That's why I broke each down into different categories, and in some cases Kobe performed the best. Kobe definitely faced superior competition in his three year run compared to LeBron.

[pauk]

:biggums:

Kobe's level of play, and even his accolades, productivity, and competition faced certainly deserve to have his 3 year run to be mentioned with late 90's MJ and current LeBron.

IMO all three of these are comparable and near the same level. No one is significantly more dominant over the other. If early 2000s Shaq or early 90s Jordan were being used as a comparison that's a different story. Those two shit on all three of these runs.

That's why I broke each down into different categories, and in some cases Kobe performed the best. Kobe definitely faced superior competition in his three year run compared to LeBron.

You dont get it, yes it deserves a mention... but he has no argument OVER Jordan/Lebron during this span, he was not as dominant as Jordan/Lebron and neither did it result with equal accolades / CONTEXT during that span....

He deserves a mention, but just as much of a mention as couple of other players and infact deserves less of a mention than in my opinion Larry Bird & Magic Johnson for example.... all who did NOT get a mention, yet deserved it more and would create a much more even matched argument (with Jordan/Lebron here) considering their domination/peak/productions/accolades during their 2-3 best years are extremly debatable, but didnt get a mention....

[SamuraiSWISH]

You dont get it, yes it deserves a mention... but he has no argument OVER Jordan/Lebron during this span, he was not as dominant as Jordan/Lebron and neither did it result with equal accolades / CONTEXT during that span....

He deserves a mention, but just as much of a mention as couple of other players and infact deserves less of a mention than in my opinion Larry Bird & Magic Johnson for example.... all who did NOT get a mention, yet deserved it more and would create a much more even matched argument (with Jordan/Lebron here) considering their domination/peak/productions/accolades during their 2-3 best years are extremly debatable, but didnt get a mention....
I wanted to compare players that are actually relevant and popular to ISH, players that posters have actually seen in context. Most here clearly in some cases literally haven't seen anything pre 2010. And you can tell by comments.

I didn't see Bird and Magic in context. I'm one of the older dudes here on ISH now, at only 28. I started watching NBA in '89. So think about that, I'm one of the older ones here and my earliest memories are from '89 and I was only like 4 years old at the time.

So mentioning them is futile. I doubt you saw them in context either. Watching replays? Probably. But your favorite player is LeBron, and I highly doubt anyone who saw Larry / Magic / Jordan ... which would put you in your mid to late 30s, would be such a rabid fanboy for a player who is only 28 years old and been playing since 2004.

You're not fooling anyone, pauk.

[pauk]

1. Lebron
2. Jordan
3. Kobe

But if it was Jordan from 90-92/93 then its easily:

1. Jordan
2. Lebron
3. Kobe

[SamuraiSWISH]

1. Lebron
2. Jordan
3. Kobe
LeBron's the better player on an ability level than late 90's Jordan, yes. I'd agree with that.

But the complete lack of competition LeBron faced in 2013, while still being underwhelming productively against inferior competition ... and then he literally has the WORST season of all the ones mentioned (2011) he can't be the best on those merits alone.

Even given all his abilities, he didn't produce the goods like Jordan. It's the same arguments you stans use against Kobe stans. Kobe is more skilled and polished, yet doesn't produce statistically like LeBron. Current Bron is more capable and able than late 90's Jordan, yet MJ produced the goods more.

MJ has same number of MVPs, Finals MVPs, and another championship. One where he didn't choke in embarrassing fashion. So late 90's MJ > Current LeBron.

Throw in early 90's MJ and neither 2008 - 2010 Kobe, nor 2011 - 2013 LeBron are even in that guy's stratosphere of performance domination and accomplishments.

[LEFT4DEAD]

LeBron's the better player on an ability level than late 90's Jordan, yes. I'd agree with that.

But the complete lack of competition LeBron faced in 2013, while still being underwhelming productively against inferior competition ... and then he literally has the WORST season of all the ones mentioned (2011) he can't be the best on those merits alone.

Even given all his abilities, he didn't produce the goods like Jordan. It's the same arguments you stans use against Kobe stans. Kobe is more skilled and polished, yet doesn't produce statistically like LeBron. Current Bron is more capable and able than late 90's Jordan, yet MJ produced the goods more.

MJ has same number of MVPs, Finals MVPs, and another championship. One where he didn't choke in embarrassing fashion. So late 90's MJ > Current LeBron.

Throw in early 90's MJ and neither 2008 - 2010 Kobe, nor 2011 - 2013 LeBron are even in that guy's stratosphere of performance domination and accomplishments.
I havent seen the guy who can consinstently post so much bullshit in one post. Only players comparable with the last 3-4 years of Lebron in NBA history are the peak Shaq and peak Jordan. No one else. Late 90's Jordan was a hell of a player, but he won just because of lack of competition. I guarantee if he had to face the last years Pacers or Spurs there is no way he would beat them.

And Kobe just drops from this conversation because its arguable if he was the most important player on one of those runs and because of his weak performances in important games. He was nowhere the player like late 90's Jordan let alone Lebron.

[plowking]

The whole rebounding/defensive versatility argument is completely overblown in the first place. I'm sure LeBron's 7.3 rebounds/game against the Pacers really changed the course of the series... :rolleyes:

And the whole "defensive versatility" gimmick is just a fancy way of saying nothing. The only thing I remember about LeBron's supreme defensive versatility against the Pacers is when West abused him on the block.

Seriously though, how did this unique, unprecedented defensive versatility really impact the Pacers offense? Because George, West, and Hibbert all had good to great series. Are we supposed to believe that these guys would have played even better if it weren't for the great LeBron? :oldlol: Give me a break.

Da fukkk are you talking about?

West abusing Lebron? West was silent with Lebron on him. I'm talking about a shut out. Its George that abused him. Lebron absolutely destroyed West on the other hand. What series were you watching.

I was screaming at the TV the whole time for Wade to switch onto George and Lebron to stay on West, where as Spo kept Bron on George for some reason.

And again with the Michael Jordan mythical creature who doesn't lose to anyone shit. This forum is vomit worthy at times with the BS it spreads. Yes, MJ can lose, and he has.
MJ wouldn't lose to the Pacers? What exactly is he going to do to stop Hibbert? Or West? Seriously. Its easy to throw out comments like that, but you have no reason as to why, apart from "Its MJ, hes not coming close to losing like Jordan". :rolleyes:

You're the same guy who admitted to being pissed the Heat won it all and had a drunk tantrum on here. :oldlol:
Lets just pretend your views are completely impartial though. :oldlol:


Another hilarious notion that Samurai and you are spreading in here is that 2013 competition was the weakest out of the lot.:oldlol:

Lets take a look at the comp Kobe faced when he beat the Magic in the finals.
Jazz in the first round... chalk that up as an easy first round, as it should be, not hating.
Rockets second round... T-Mac injured, not playing. Yao Ming misses 4 games in the series. Lakers get pushed to 7 by a team of Battier, Scola, Artest, Brooks and Hayes as starters for 4 games. :oldlol:
That has to be one of the easiest second rounds ever.
Denver in the 3rd round... They had home court against the Nuggets, so its a given they go through.
And the finals... You verse one of the worst teams ever to make the finals in the 09 Magic, outside of the 07 Cavs.

The very next year you get pushed to 7 games by a Celtics team that many thought would lose to the Heat in the first round. Thats how bad they were. :oldlol:

Not to mention MJ's 96 run is as easy as they come.

[plowking]

MJ has same number of MVPs, Finals MVPs, and another championship. One where he didn't choke in embarrassing fashion. So late 90's MJ > Current LeBron.



Another load of crap.
MJ had a horrendous 96 finals, and it is most definitely worse than Lebron this year against the Spurs.

Look at his numbers as soon as Payton switched onto him. Not to mention Jordan shot 5-22 in a closeout game 6. Not exactly stepping up in the clutch. Its only not considered a choke because his team won.

If Lebron wins another finals MVP in the fashion of the 2012 championship, it will comfortably be ahead of Jordan's second 3-peat. Not touching the first one, but comfortably ahead of the second one.

[DMAVS41]

How can anyone rank Lebron first or second after 2011?

Jordan has to be first because he won 3 titles...

Kobe's play was at least not the main reason they lost in 08

Lebron's play in 11 prevented his team from winning

On that alone it must go:

1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Lebron

[OldSchoolBBall]

No, they wouldn't have.

Jordan wouldn't have won this year. Hes not getting passed the Pacers with the front court the Heat have. The thing with Lebron was, he could switch on to David West, go down low, and actually rebound with the bigs.

What's Jordan going to do? Shut down West or Hibbert? He's not doing shit to either. Where as Lebron could at least do a job on West.

lol @ the idea of Jordan losing to that pretty middling Pacers team. :oldlol: Yeah, he wouldn't shut Hibbert/West down (though his help defense would certainly disrupt them), but he also wouldn't let Paul George have a career series at nearly 20 ppg on much better efficiency than his RS averages..

[2010splash]

I gave Kobe's ppg, rpg, apg, and overall effiency for the entire series. You on the other hand posted fg% for the series, which doesn't include 3-point and freethrow shooting, and you also posted a single fg/fga box score from the close out games. Yeah I'm the one proping up a single stat when I posted his entire line, and you're the one factoring everything by choosing a single fg/fga boxscore and one stat-fg%...

Dude, you need to get over the fact that Kobe is dead last in this comparison and it isn't even close. He's had TWO Finals meltdowns out of THREE appearances including a historically bad GAME 7 on his own floor that the Lakers were fortunate enough to win due to team defense, rebounding, and just overall terrible offense by the Celtics. It's not as it Kobe himself was the primary reason the Lakers won Game 7 in the 2010 Finals. And his 2008 Finals is hands down one of the worst ever. I listed all the reasons in the earlier post.

With Jordan and LeBron, you can make an argument either way. Since Jordan went a perfect 3 for 3 and had the 72-win record in '96, I could see an argument for him. I tend to lean towards LeBron despite his 2011 losing out to Jordan's 1996 because his 2012 and 2013 seasons were clearly the best out of any of these. Though of course, if we're talking '91-'93 Jordan that's a totally different story.

Kobe is LAST on this list buddy.

1. '11-'13 LeBron
2. '96-'98 Jordan


3. '08-'10 Kobe

(though you could reverse 1 and 2)

[2010splash]

How can anyone rank Lebron first or second after 2011?

Jordan has to be first because he won 3 titles...

Kobe's play was at least not the main reason they lost in 08

Lebron's play in 11 prevented his team from winning

On that alone it must go:

1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Lebron
How, you ask? It's simple. Because Kobe's Finals performances in 2008, 2009, and 2010 are easily worse than LeBron's from 2011, 2012, and 2013 (comparing 2008 to 2011, 2009 to 2012, and 2010 to 2013). Then of course you factor in the regular season, where LeBron wins by a mile.

Kobe being worse in the regular season + worse in the playoffs/Finals = last on this list. Pretty simple.

[Fresh Kid]

96-98 jordan number 1, 08-10 kobe number 2, & 11-13 lebron number:oldlol:

[guy]

This year's Pacers didn't even win 50 games :oldlol:

[Fresh Kid]

This year's Pacers didn't even win 50 games :oldlol:
:lol

[Element]

Overall

1. Second three-peat Jordan. Three beats two. Easy.
2. 08-10 Kobe
3. 11-13 LeBron

Single postseason rankings

1. '96 MJ
2. '09 Kobe
3. 2012 Lebron
4. '97 MJ
5. 2008 Kobe
6. '98 MJ
7. 2010 Kobe
8. 2013 LeBron
9. 2011 LeBron

[SamuraiSWISH]

Not to mention MJ's 96 run is as easy as they come.
The nerve of a Heat groupie to claim the '96 Bulls run was easy. You guys faced a Bulls team w/o Rose, Deng, Hinrich ... three of their five best players, including THE best. You faced a Pacers team that didn't even must 50 wins in the regular season. And then faced an old decrepit Spurs team that only got there because OKC was injured like the Bulls. Missing one of their key pieces. And you struggled in both series requiring game 7.

The '96 Bulls faced 60 - 22 Orlando Magic, lead by a dominant Shaquille O'Neal and Penny Hardaway. And beat a 64 - 18 Seattle Supersonic team spearheaded by prime Gary Payton and Shawn Kemp. The '96 Knicks whom the Bulls faced in the 2nd round won just 2 less games than the 2013 Pacers with whom the Heat struggled with.

That '96 Magic, '96 Sonics are better than the 2013 Pacers, 2013 Spurs ... hell, better than the 2012 Celtics and 2012 Thunder. Better than the 2011 Bulls, better than the 2011 Mavericks too.

2013 Heat's competition is easily the worst of the bunch. In arguable in fact. Only a Heat cheerleader would make a claim otherwise.

As for MJ's '96 performance, yea it was bad given his absurd standards. Which he set for himself. Worse than LeBron's 2011? Ummm, hardly. Yes, if LeBron three peats this year and performs 2012 caliber, I'd rank his three peat performance wise over MJ's 2nd three peat. But until then? The only people picking it are LeBron stans.

[Legends66NBA7]

Yeah, I don't see how the 96 run was easy. All Bulls opponents featured good/great big men they faced in each run.

[Doranku]

Da fukkk are you talking about?

West abusing Lebron? West was silent with Lebron on him. I'm talking about a shut out. Its George that abused him. Lebron absolutely destroyed West on the other hand. What series were you watching.

I was screaming at the TV the whole time for Wade to switch onto George and Lebron to stay on West, where as Spo kept Bron on George for some reason.

And again with the Michael Jordan mythical creature who doesn't lose to anyone shit. This forum is vomit worthy at times with the BS it spreads. Yes, MJ can lose, and he has.
MJ wouldn't lose to the Pacers? What exactly is he going to do to stop Hibbert? Or West? Seriously. Its easy to throw out comments like that, but you have no reason as to why, apart from "Its MJ, hes not coming close to losing like Jordan". :rolleyes:

You're the same guy who admitted to being pissed the Heat won it all and had a drunk tantrum on here. :oldlol:
Lets just pretend your views are completely impartial though. :oldlol:


Another hilarious notion that Samurai and you are spreading in here is that 2013 competition was the weakest out of the lot.:oldlol:

Lets take a look at the comp Kobe faced when he beat the Magic in the finals.
Jazz in the first round... chalk that up as an easy first round, as it should be, not hating.
Rockets second round... T-Mac injured, not playing. Yao Ming misses 4 games in the series. Lakers get pushed to 7 by a team of Battier, Scola, Artest, Brooks and Hayes as starters for 4 games. :oldlol:
That has to be one of the easiest second rounds ever.
Denver in the 3rd round... They had home court against the Nuggets, so its a given they go through.
And the finals... You verse one of the worst teams ever to make the finals in the 09 Magic, outside of the 07 Cavs.

The very next year you get pushed to 7 games by a Celtics team that many thought would lose to the Heat in the first round. Thats how bad they were. :oldlol:

Not to mention MJ's 96 run is as easy as they come.

I'd like to see some statistics for West's numbers when LeBron was guarding him. I remember several plays where West had him 1 on 1 in the post and the result was an easy bucket almost every time.

What would MJ do to stop Hibbert? WTF did LeBron do? Hibbert destroyed the Heat and far exceeded his season averages. I don't see how he would be capable of playing even better than that with MJ instead of LeBron.

You say "Jazz in the first round" as if they're nothing.. yet they were much better than the 2013 Bucks and 2013 Bulls (who played their DLeague squad) and won only 1 less game than the Pacers did in a better conference.

So we're just going to ignore the fact that Denver was a great team and simply say they win because of HCA.. that it's a given? How'd that work out for Bronzy and company against the Mavericks in 2011? :oldlol:

And the Magic '09 team wasn't that great, true. But they were the top defensive team in the league and they had no problem dispatching of your boy Bronzy in the ECF... n!gga got lit up by Rafer f*cking Alston and we're supposed to believe that this dude's defense is the saving grace of the Miami Heat.

Get the f*ck outta here bro.

[DMAVS41]

How, you ask? It's simple. Because Kobe's Finals performances in 2008, 2009, and 2010 are easily worse than LeBron's from 2011, 2012, and 2013 (comparing 2008 to 2011, 2009 to 2012, and 2010 to 2013). Then of course you factor in the regular season, where LeBron wins by a mile.

Kobe being worse in the regular season + worse in the playoffs/Finals = last on this list. Pretty simple.

Here is the thing. With Lebron over those 3 years...you can't win 3 titles. The most you can win is 2.

I think Lebron is better than Kobe...so this isn't some personal vendetta.

Jordan must be first because he actually won 3...and didn't have any moments that prevented his team from winning.

With Kobe, you had the 24 point blown lead game in which Kobe was very poor. Could have been the difference in the series.

With Lebron though...it was game after game in the 11 finals which prevented his team from winning. No realistic team would have been good enough for Lebron to win with in 11. He had by far the most help out of any player in the league and still lost...

I just don't see Kobe or Jordan having the best help...and still losing in the years mentioned.

[Fresh Kid]

Here is the thing. With Lebron over those 3 years...you can't win 3 titles. The most you can win is 2.

I think Lebron is better than Kobe...so this isn't some personal vendetta.

Jordan must be first because he actually won 3...and didn't have any moments that prevented his team from winning.

With Kobe, you had the 24 point blown lead game in which Kobe was very poor. Could have been the difference in the series.

With Lebron though...it was game after game in the 11 finals which prevented his team from winning. No realistic team would have been good enough for Lebron to win with in 11. He had by far the most help out of any player in the league and still lost...

I just don't see Kobe or Jordan having the best help...and still losing in the years mentioned.
i just lost a lot of respect for u man, say it aint so 41, say it aint so:facepalm

[DMAVS41]

i just lost a lot of respect for u man, say it aint so 41, say it aint so:facepalm

explain to me how you can rank Lebron higher when the 11 finals happened?

The max titles for Lebron is 2 during that stretch.

Well, Jordan won 3...and you give 08 Kobe the most help in the league...I'll take my chances he doesn't play so bad his team loses in the finals because of him.

They may not win, but it wouldn't be because of him in the way that the Heat lost in 11 because of Lebron.

08 Kobe isn't being ****ing outplayed by Jason Terry in a series...

[Fresh Kid]

explain to me how you can rank Lebron higher when the 11 finals happened?

The max titles for Lebron is 2 during that stretch.

Well, Jordan won 3...and you give 08 Kobe the most help in the league...I'll take my chances he doesn't play so bad his team loses in the finals because of him.

They may not win, but it wouldn't be because of him in the way that the Heat lost in 11 because of Lebron.

08 Kobe isn't being ****ing outplayed by Jason Terry in a series...
o my fault man i misread, i thought you had Lebron over kobe. my bad.

[2010splash]

Here is the thing. With Lebron over those 3 years...you can't win 3 titles. The most you can win is 2.

I think Lebron is better than Kobe...so this isn't some personal vendetta.

Jordan must be first because he actually won 3...and didn't have any moments that prevented his team from winning.

With Kobe, you had the 24 point blown lead game in which Kobe was very poor. Could have been the difference in the series.

With Lebron though...it was game after game in the 11 finals which prevented his team from winning. No realistic team would have been good enough for Lebron to win with in 11. He had by far the most help out of any player in the league and still lost...

I just don't see Kobe or Jordan having the best help...and still losing in the years mentioned.
2011 Heat definitely lose with Kobe playing like he did in the 2008 and 2010 Finals. Keep in mind it is Kobe here who has the 2 worst Finals performances out of the entire group (2008 and 2010). Furthermore, no effing way do the Heat win in 2012 or 2013 with any version of Kobe. Kobe has never won titles with as little help as LeBron had these past 2 playoff runs and he's never been asked to dominate every aspect of the game the way LeBron has had to in 2012 and 2013 as well. Kobe was fortunate enough to focus primarily on just scoring. If that isn't enough to place him firmly last in this discussion, there's plenty more.

You can't just ignore the regular season in these comparisons. LeBron won consecutive LANDSLIDE MVPs and simply blew away his competition in 2012 and 2013. Kobe won only one highly controversial MVP in 2008 where he probably wasn't even the best player in the league. None of Kobe's regular seasons compare to 2012 or 2013 LeBron. Not even close. And none of his playoff runs were better than 2012 LeBron. And he's never won with as little help as 2013 LeBron had.

There's just no argument for Kobe being 2nd. He's clearly 3rd here.

[Deuce Bigalow]

2011 Heat definitely lose with Kobe playing like he did in the 2008 and 2010 Finals. Keep in mind it is Kobe here who has the 2 worst Finals performances out of the entire group (2008 and 2010). Furthermore, no effing way do the Heat win in 2012 or 2013 with any version of Kobe. Kobe has never won titles with as little help as LeBron had these past 2 playoff runs and he's never been asked to dominate every aspect of the game the way LeBron has had to in 2012 and 2013 as well. Kobe was fortunate enough to focus primarily on just scoring. If that isn't enough to place him firmly last in this discussion, there's plenty more.

You can't just ignore the regular season in these comparisons. LeBron won consecutive LANDSLIDE MVPs and simply blew away his competition in 2012 and 2013. Kobe won only one highly controversial MVP in 2008 where he probably wasn't even the best player in the league. None of Kobe's regular seasons compare to 2012 or 2013 LeBron. Not even close. And none of his playoff runs were better than 2012 LeBron. And he's never won with as little help as 2013 LeBron had.

There's just no argument for Kobe being 2nd. He's clearly 3rd here.
Yeah because Kobe would play the same against the Celtic defense compared the Mavs defense. 08 Kobe would destroy the 11 Mavs. Kobe was owning every west team in the 08 playoffs in tune of a 32-6-6 / 60TS% average in the Western Conference playoffs before running into Boston. LOL at thinking prime Kobe would average a pathetic 17.8 ppg and 3.0 4th quarter ppg vs the ****ing Mavs. If 2010 Kobe could put up 29-8-4 on 53 TS% vs a great Boston defense, what would he have done to the 11 Mavs inferior defense? A whole lot better than 11 Lebron who got outscored by Jason Terry. Any superstar could have had a better series than Lebron in the 2011 finals.

[2010splash]

Yeah because Kobe would play the same against the Celtic defense compared the Mavs defense. 08 Kobe would destroy the 11 Mavs. Kobe was owning every west team in the 08 playoffs in tune of a 32-6-6 / 60TS% average in the Western Conference playoffs before running into Boston. LOL at thinking prime Kobe would average a pathetic 17.8 ppg and 3.0 4th quarter ppg vs the ****ing Mavs. If 2010 Kobe could put up 29-8-4 on 53 TS% vs a great Boston defense, what would he have done to the 11 Mavs inferior defense? A whole lot better than 11 Lebron who got outscored by Jason Terry. Any superstar could have had a better series than Lebron in the 2011 finals.
It's doubtful the Heat reach the Finals that year to play the Mavs because they would have had to go through the Bulls' #1 ranked defense in the ECF. Wade struggled that series and it was Bosh and LeBron who went off.

Kobe has a history of getting shut down by the truly elite defenses of the East (look at his stats against the Bulls and the Celtics or Pistons in the Finals etc).

[Deuce Bigalow]

It's doubtful the Heat reach the Finals that year to play the Mavs because they would have had to go through the Bulls' #1 ranked defense in the ECF. Wade struggled that series and it was Bosh and LeBron who went off.

Kobe has a history of getting shut down by the truly elite defenses of the East (look at his stats against the Bulls and the Celtics or Pistons in the Finals etc).
Kobe would have a chance beating them if he had the supporting cast of the 11 Heat compared to the supporting cast of the 08 Lakers. Bulls were very inexperienced compared to the elite defensive teams Kobe has faced.

[Shade8780]

1. LeBron
2. Jordan
3. Kobe

[DMAVS41]

It's doubtful the Heat reach the Finals that year to play the Mavs because they would have had to go through the Bulls' #1 ranked defense in the ECF. Wade struggled that series and it was Bosh and LeBron who went off.

Kobe has a history of getting shut down by the truly elite defenses of the East (look at his stats against the Bulls and the Celtics or Pistons in the Finals etc).

You mean the series the Heat won in 5?

I agree that series would be tougher than the Mavs for Kobe, but nah...the gap in 08 Kobe and 11 Lebron simply isn't big enough to think the Heat just lose that series.

It may take 6 or 7, but no reason to think the Heat win.

08 Kobe is winning the title on the 11 Heat. It's 12 and 13 that would pose problems for Kobe.

But I didn't take this to mean that. I took it to mean to rank them on what they actually did...not hypotheticals.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Yeah, I don't see how the 96 run was easy. All Bulls opponents featured good/great big men they faced in each run.
Seriously. The Bulls may have made it look easy at times because they were so good, but those were quality teams they faced.

The '96 Bulls went though these big men: Alonzo, Ewing, and Shaq. Yet plowking pushes this myth that we're supposed to be impressed because LeBron James defeated Roy Hibbert's Pacers?

:oldlol:

It is undeniable that the 2013 Heat faced the worst competition on their run than ANY of the guys and seasons in question. I'd say the 2009 Magic are the worst Finals opponent, but the rest of the competition is without question than the meager opposition the 2013 Heat faced. I don't know how someone could even feel comfortable arguing otherwise.

[Legends66NBA7]

Seriously. The Bulls may have made it look easy at times because they were so good, but those were quality teams they faced.

The '96 Bulls went though these big men: Alonzo, Ewing, and Shaq. Yet plowking pushes this myth that we're supposed to be impressed because LeBron James defeated Roy Hibbert's Pacers ?

Also Shawn Kemp. Not a center, but definitely a very good big man too. Was doing pretty impressive work vs the Rockets and good against the Jazz too.

[Papaya Petee]

This is as easy at it gets.

1.) Lebron
2.) Jordan

big gap
3.) Kobe

The level LeBron James has presented since the 2011 meltdown, is easily better then anything Jordan had to offer from 1996-1998. 3 peat Jordan has no argument over LeBron, whatsoever. He scored more points on much worse efficiency, and was literally worse at any other concept of basketball other then scoring. Only argument he has is that he won all 3 when LeBron lost, but on an individual level, LeBron was the superior player.

Kobe doesn't belong in this discussion, his finals in 2008 and 2010 were a joke.

[plowking]

The nerve of a Heat groupie to claim the '96 Bulls run was easy. You guys faced a Bulls team w/o Rose, Deng, Hinrich ... three of their five best players, including THE best. You faced a Pacers team that didn't even must 50 wins in the regular season. And then faced an old decrepit Spurs team that only got there because OKC was injured like the Bulls. Missing one of their key pieces. And you struggled in both series requiring game 7.

The '96 Bulls faced 60 - 22 Orlando Magic, lead by a dominant Shaquille O'Neal and Penny Hardaway. And beat a 64 - 18 Seattle Supersonic team spearheaded by prime Gary Payton and Shawn Kemp. The '96 Knicks whom the Bulls faced in the 2nd round won just 2 less games than the 2013 Pacers with whom the Heat struggled with.

That '96 Magic, '96 Sonics are better than the 2013 Pacers, 2013 Spurs ... hell, better than the 2012 Celtics and 2012 Thunder. Better than the 2011 Bulls, better than the 2011 Mavericks too.

2013 Heat's competition is easily the worst of the bunch. In arguable in fact. Only a Heat cheerleader would make a claim otherwise.

As for MJ's '96 performance, yea it was bad given his absurd standards. Which he set for himself. Worse than LeBron's 2011? Ummm, hardly. Yes, if LeBron three peats this year and performs 2012 caliber, I'd rank his three peat performance wise over MJ's 2nd three peat. But until then? The only people picking it are LeBron stans.

Spurs are most definitely better than the Sonics and Knicks team back then.

So what the Pacers didn't win 50 games? Who made you the king of arbitrary cut offs to determine how good a team is? Bulls won 66 games in 2011. Going by your definition they were better than any team the 96 Bulls faced.
Pacers beat a 50+ win team in the Knicks. Not the Heats fault the Knicks didn't win. And the Spurs of last year were an all time great team.

And Lebron 2013 finals> Jordan 1996 finals.

[plowking]

Also Shawn Kemp. Not a center, but definitely a very good big man too. Was doing pretty impressive work vs the Rockets and good against the Jazz too.

Its much easier to play a team with big men when your team actually has big men.
People seriously don't understand or undervalue how hard it is to play without a big man (7 footer) type who can protect the paint.

[Legends66NBA7]

Its much easier to play a team with big men when your team actually has big men.
People seriously don't understand or undervalue how hard it is to play without a big man (7 footer) type who can protect the paint.

Then you would have to blame the structure of those specific teams. It's not like they can't find a decent big man. For the record, I consider both PF-C's big's for the most part.

And if this is an example against the 96-98 Bulls, well, they didn't have any consistent 2 way big man themselves nor a rim protector and certainly none of their C's matched up well for their 96 run outside the Sonics. It was easier for them to play defense since that was their main role, but they weren't much of a factor on offense. They could pass, set screens, maybe hit a shot if their open, but that's about it. Other than that, the Bulls wings had to do more work, so it was more a burden for them... very similar to the current Miami Heat model wing players in how they play.

The best 2 way big-man the Bulls had during the 96-98 was Brian Williams and he hardly even played during his 2 month stint.

[CAstill]

Spurs are most definitely better than the Sonics and Knicks team back then.

So what the Pacers didn't win 50 games? Who made you the king of arbitrary cut offs to determine how good a team is? Bulls won 66 games in 2011. Going by your definition they were better than any team the 96 Bulls faced.
Pacers beat a 50+ win team in the Knicks. Not the Heats fault the Knicks didn't win. And the Spurs of last year were an all time great team.

And Lebron 2013 finals> Jordan 1996 finals.


:facepalm

96 Sonics>>>13 Spurs

GP and Kemp would of had a field day with injured Parker and Old man Duncan.


1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. Lebron

[Fresh Kid]

1. LeBron
2. Jordan
3. Kobe
somebody call dis niguh a doctor for dis shit:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Soundwave]

:facepalm

96 Sonics>>>13 Spurs

GP and Kemp would of had a field day with injured Parker and Old man Duncan.


1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. Lebron

Detlef Schrempf was a really good third option too, 16-17 ppg type player, 6-9 forward that was versatile and score inside or outside.

'96-Era GP + Kemp + Schrempf >>> 2013 Duncan (old) + Parker + Manu (finished).

The Sonics 4th option (Hershey Hawkins) in '96 was better than Manu.

Shawn Kemp would eat Chris Bosh alive, he'd be a 20+/12 player in the modern NBA with no bigs to stop him. Even Rodman had trouble containing Kemp and he's a far better defensive big than anyone Miami has.

Both the '96 Sonics and '96 Magic are better than any team the Heat faced in last year's playoffs.

[KG215]

Yeah, I can't get on board with the 2013 Spurs being better than '96 Sonics. The Knicks, sure, but not a Sonics team that had a very good foursome of Payton, Kemp, Schrempf, and Hawkins. Perkins was a solid 5th scoring option, too. Not to mention they were a 64 win, 7.39 SRS team.

[DMAVS41]

Yeah, I can't get on board with the 2013 Spurs being better than '96 Sonics. The Knicks, sure, but not a Sonics team that had a very good foursome of Payton, Kemp, Schrempf, and Hawkins. Perkins was a solid 5th scoring option, too. Not to mention they were a 64 win, 7.39 SRS team.

Yea. Sonics were just much better. Just obvious.

Especially with Parker being hurt/awful in the finals.

The Spurs just weren't that good in the finals...neither were the Heat (nor were they the entire playoffs)

Just a down year in terms of championship strength.

[KG215]

Yea. Sonics were just much better. Just obvious.

Especially with Parker being hurt/awful in the finals.

The Spurs just weren't that good in the finals...neither were the Heat (nor were they the entire playoffs)

Just a down year in terms of championship strength.
And people want to feed you some "championship pedigree" nonsense which I guess is true to some extent. But that Spurs team wasn't as good as any of their 4 championship teams or as good as some of their teams that didn't even make the Finals. Manu is/was beyond washed-up, and like you said, Parker was playing hurt. Duncan and Leonard were their two best players; and while Duncan was still very good, he couldn't play as many minutes, thus he couldn't have as much of an impact as he could 6+ years ago when the Spurs were winning championships.

Not that they were bad team, but I'm supposed to buy into this nonsense that some posters have tried to feed me that they were better than any team Jordan's Bulls beat in the Finals?

[TonyMontana]

LeBron is the best and its not even close. Won without a frontcourt, puts up the best efficiency, the best rebounder, the best at getting looks for teammates, the best defender. Easy.

2013 Spurs(two hall of famers playing at an elite level)
2012 Thunder(three hall of famers at an elite level)

LeBron has beat teams with more hall of famers than his own in these Finals. Wade played like horseshit in 2013 and Boshs only hope of making the hall is riding LeBron to enough rings.

When Jordan won his rings it was because he had Pippen, Phil "GOAT" Jackson, and a frontcourt that won the rebounding battle/protected the rim. No other cast in the 90s can compare. When Jordan didn't have those stacked odds he wasn't winning anything in the late 80s even though he was just as good of a player.

[Fresh Kid]

LeBron is the best and its not even close. Won without a frontcourt, puts up the best efficiency, the best rebounder, the best at getting looks for teammates, the best defender. Easy.

2013 Spurs(two hall of famers playing at an elite level)
2012 Thunder(three hall of famers at an elite level)

LeBron has beat teams with more hall of famers than his own in these Finals. Wade played like horseshit in 2013 and Boshs only hope of making the hall is riding LeBron to enough rings.

When Jordan won his rings it was because he had Pippen, Phil "GOAT" Jackson, and a frontcourt that won the rebounding battle/protected the rim. No other cast in the 90s can compare. When Jordan didn't have those stacked odds he wasn't winning anything in the late 80s even though he was just as good of a player.
you need to get off that crack man:oldlol:

[plowking]

Funny. People last season before the Spurs got swept after going 2-0 up on the Thunder, were saying what a historically great team the Spurs were, and were baffled with the incredible basketball they were paying.

Then they come back next season, and upgrade their team, and cover their weaknesses, and somehow they are considered worse, old, and just not that good a championship team. Hilarious.

[Fresh Kid]

Funny. People last season before the Spurs got swept after going 2-0 up on the Thunder, were saying what a historically great team the Spurs were, and were baffled with the incredible basketball they were paying.

Then they come back next season, and upgrade their team, and cover their weaknesses, and somehow they are considered worse, old, and just not that good a championship team. Hilarious.
you can thank ginobli and popavich for that

[Soundwave]

Funny. People last season before the Spurs got swept after going 2-0 up on the Thunder, were saying what a historically great team the Spurs were, and were baffled with the incredible basketball they were paying.

Then they come back next season, and upgrade their team, and cover their weaknesses, and somehow they are considered worse, old, and just not that good a championship team. Hilarious.

That's fine, but the '96 Sonics (and '96 Magic for that matter) are still better than them.

The entire Western Conference is lucky as hell that OKC's ownership was too cheap to keep Harden, otherwise they'd have been in the Finals again easily and probably could've beaten the Heat.

This was just an incredibly easy run for them -- no Rose on Chicago, no Granger for Indy, no OKC to worry about, injured Parker in the Finals, etc. And they basically still needed a miracle to pull it out, lol, pretty sad actually.

The 90s Bulls or 2000s Lakers would've sh+t stomped that weak ass level of competition.

The Spurs are fiesty bunch, but at the end of the day Duncan is THIRTY SEVEN years old, well past his prime, and Ginobli is basically only capable of playing 1-2 good games a series now.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

That's fine, but the '96 Sonics (and '96 Magic for that matter) are still better than them.

The entire Western Conference is lucky as hell that OKC's ownership was too cheap to keep Harden, otherwise they'd have been in the Finals again easily and probably could've beaten the Heat.

This was just an incredibly easy run for them -- no Rose on Chicago, no Granger for Indy, no OKC to worry about, injured Parker in the Finals, etc. And they basically still needed a miracle to pull it out, lol, pretty sad actually.

The 90s Bulls or 2000s Lakers would've sh+t stomped that weak ass level of competition.

The Spurs are fiesty bunch, but at the end of the day Duncan is THIRTY SEVEN years old, well past his prime, and Ginobli is basically only capable of playing 1-2 good games a series now.

Yeah. It's not like the Heat were dealing with any injuries...

[Soundwave]

Yeah. It's not like the Heat were dealing with any injuries...

Still far more talented than anyone else they faced this off-season. Call me when they win a series with Wade or LeBron entirely out of a series like Indy or Chicago had to deal with.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Still far more talented than anyone else they faced this off-season. Call me when they win a series with Wade or LeBron entirely out of a series like Indy or Chicago had to deal with.

They've won series with Bosh out. Let's not talk about Rose since he chose to sit out willingly. You mention Granger but Paul George wouldn't have become the player he was this year if Danny was still on the roster. Even Lebron mentioned that it was a blessing in disguise and that it gave PG a chance to step up. As for the Wade injury, I only brought it up because you mentioned Parker. Even then, Parker only claimed to be bothered by his hamstring in the final two games whereas Wade had been battling with injuries the entire post-season. Finally, what makes you think OKC would be the favorites if they made the Finals?

[Soundwave]

They've won series with Bosh out. Let's not talk about Rose since he chose to sit out willingly. You mention Granger but Paul George wouldn't have become the player he was this year if Danny was still on the roster. Even Lebron mentioned that it was a blessing in disguise and that it gave PG a chance to step up. Finally, what makes you think OKC would be the favorites if they made the Finals?

A year of experience on OKC's side plus the fact that I don't think Miami really played all that great in this year's playoffs period. If it was OKC there with Harden, I think they win it, but their ownership refused to spend some extra bucks I guess.

Miami's really not a great "team" IMO, they just eek by on talent when things get tough. James' presence has made both Bosh and Wade worse.

Secondly, I don't buy that BS about Paul George (who's overrated) needing Granger to be injured. If you're good, you will show it with time.

[Fresh Kid]

Still far more talented than anyone else they faced this off-season. Call me when they win a series with Wade or LeBron entirely out of a series like Indy or Chicago had to deal with.
which would never happen.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

A year of experience on OKC's side plus the fact that I don't think Miami really played all that great in this year's playoffs period. If it was OKC there with Harden, I think they win it, but their ownership refused to spend some extra bucks I guess.


Did you watch the Heat-OKC games in the regular season? Miami didn't play all that great in the 2012 playoffs prior to the Finals either, but we all saw what happened in the Finals. I really don't see anything that would suggest OKC could beat the Heat in a series.


They're really not a great "team", they just eek by on talent. James' presence has made both Bosh and Wade worse.

That was the case in 2011 and to a lesser degree in 2012 but I don't see that for last year. Perhaps on offense at times, but they're a great defensive team and all the role players have bought into the system. In the RS, even when Lebron and/or Wade missed games, they were still able to beat quality opponents. E.g., the Heat-Spurs game where Bosh shot the game-winner or the Heat-Cavs game at the end of the season.


Secondly, I don't buy that BS about Paul George (who's overrated) needing Granger to be injured. If you're good, you will show it with time.

Yes, and that time came much faster due to Granger missing the season.

[HeatFanSince88]

lol @ Jordan stans talking shit about the Spurs age, and then going on to hype the Jazz(35 year old Malone and Stockton) in the very next sentence.

[SamuraiSWISH]

That's fine, but the '96 Sonics (and '96 Magic for that matter) are still better than them.
Seriously ...

In your opinion would you even say the 2013 Spurs, lead by 37 year old Duncan, 35 year old Ginobili (who played like ass in the Finals), and a injured / hobbled and already overrated Tony Parker were better than the 1997 Heat coached by Pat Riley himself, featuring an elite defense ... prime Alonzo, Tim Hardaway, and Jamal Mashburn?

'96 Sonics, '96 Magic, '97 Heat, '97 Jazz > 2012 Thunder > 2013 Spurs


The entire Western Conference is lucky as hell that OKC's ownership was too cheap to keep Harden, otherwise they'd have been in the Finals again easily and probably could've beaten the Heat.
Thank you. That OKC was a dynasty in the making, and honestly it is the only team in the league with the youth, athleticism, talent, skill, aggressive mentality that was formed organically in the right way that could compete or beat the Heat. It's a shame that not only were they broken up prematurely, but in 2013 they were also injured.

[magnax1]

Im not so sure the 2013 Spurs are far behind those 90s teams. The 2012 team was better anyway, but the Spurs were a pretty damn complete team this year. Duncan played fantastic and they really improved their D from last season, even though they kind of lost the insane offense they had too.

[Young X]

lol @ the choking ass Spurs being better than the '96 Sonics. SMH.

Why is a team that choked for 5 straight seasons this revered?

They are pretenders and fold like b*tches every time they face an elite team.

Their playoff success is 100% due to their regular season performance which allows them to continuously avoid good teams in the playoffs.

They can beat the 50 win Cavs, 50 win Jazz, 47 win Warriors, or the 49 win Nets but they choke when they face OKC, LA, Miami. etc. That's why they never repeated.

Payton alone would destroy Tony Choker.

[SamuraiSWISH]

lol @ the choking ass Spurs being better than the '96 Sonics. SMH.

Why is a team that choked for 5 straight seasons this revered?

They are pretenders and fold like b*tches every time they face an elite team.

Their playoff success is 100% due to their regular season performance which allows them to continuously avoid good teams in the playoffs.

They can beat the 50 win Cavs, 50 win Jazz, 47 win Warriors, or the 49 win Nets but they choke when they face OKC, LA, Miami. etc. That's why they never repeated.

Payton alone would destroy Tony Choker.
Dude Stephen Curry and Clay Thompson gave them a run for their money at times.

:biggums:

[feyki]

Kobe
Lebron(12-14)
Jordan