Sidney Moncrief, only SG who've outplayed MJ h2h in a PS series

[SHAQisGOAT]

They also had Pressey on Jordan though along with some double teams, and MJ also sometimes guarding Hodges.
I don't think any other SG can make that claim.
On both ends. Doing one of the best jobs you could have on MJ defensively, and killing them with all-around great offense.

Jordan: 29.3 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 8.5 apg, 2.8 spg, 1.0 bpg, 3.8 TO, 43.6% FG, 12.5% 3P, 82.8% FT, 42.8 mpg

Moncrief: 26.5 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 4.8 apg, 0.5 spg, 0.5 bpg, 1.8 TO, 54.9% FG, 40.0% 3P, 92.3% FT, 42.0 mpg

Bucks won the series 3 to 1.

Sid was a vet at his best though, before injury pretty much ended his career in 1986, he definitely had better teammates around also (Woolridge put up 21 ppg on 50% from the field though, for Chicago), and Jordan was a rookie, but MJ averaged 28.2/6.5/5.9 on 51.5% from the field in the regular season, that's no joke by any means, he was already just a great player and a beast of an athlete.
Jordan was all-around great as usual but was turning the ball over too much and his efficiency was well below his standards. He had a terrific game 2 as far as scoring and with 12 assists but 7 TO's, also a pretty good scoring game 3, Moncrief shut him down in game 1 and another great job in the decisive game 4.

That's why Jordan respected him so much: "When you play against Moncrief, you're in for a night of all-around basketball. He'll hound you everywhere you go, both ends of the court. You just expect it."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ADAo3W4Hos

:bowdown:

Yea Sid had his career cut short by injuries but he should definitely be in the HOF by now, especially when you look at who's there already.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Found this on another forum:

George Gervin (1981-82 to 1984-85)
averaged: 26.5 PPG on .496 FG%
vs. Moncrief over the course of 8 games: 22.9 PPG on .452 FG%(-1 one game)

Reggie Theus (1981-82 to 1985-86)
averaged: 18.1 PPG on .472 FG%
vs Moncrief over the course of 16 games: 18.5 PPG on .443 FG%(-3 games)

Otis Birdsong (1981-82 to 1985-86)
averaged: 17.3 PPG on .506 FG%
vs Moncrief over the course of 20 games: 14.4 PPG on .457 FG%(-2 games)
vs Moncrief over the course of 6 games in the 1984 PS: 15.8 PPG on .412 FG%

Darrell Griffith (1981-82 to 1984-85)
averaged: 21.1 PPG on .478 FG%
vs Moncrief over the course of 8 games: 20.4 PPG on .448 FG%(-2 games)

Clyde Drexler (1984-85 to 1985-86)
averaged: 17.8 PPG on .484 FG%
vs. Moncrief over the course of 4 games: 18.5 PPG on .477 FG%(-2 games)

World B. Free (1981-82 to 1985-86)
averaged: 23.0 PPG on .452 FG%
vs Moncrief over the course of 21 games: 21.6 PPG on .479 FG%(-2 games)

Rolando Blackman (1982-83 to 1985-86)
averaged: 20.4 PPG on .516 FG%
vs Moncrief over the course of 10 games: 18.3 PPG on .459 FG%(-1 game)

Jeff Malone (1984-85 to 1985-86)
averaged: 20.7 PPG on 490 FG%
vs Moncrief over the course of 9 games: 16.9 PPG on .431 FG%

"Fast" Eddie Johnson (1981-82 to 1984-85)
averaged: 15.9 PPG on .457
vs Moncrief over the course of 17 games: 14.0 PPG on .436 FG%(-2 games)
vs Moncrief over the course of 5 games in the 1984 PS: 10.8 PPG on .352 FG%

Jim Paxson (1981-82 to 1984-85)
averaged: 20.0 PPG on .518 FG%
vs Moncrief over the course of 8 games: 16.5 PPG on .432 FG%(-2 games)


And this man could also score with efficiency, pass, and rebound. In 1982 he led the Bucks in points, rebounds and assists, as a 6'4'' SG. In 1983 he won DPOY (1984 as well), was 4th in MVP voting and all-nba 1st.
Bucks just some great teams with him, in the 80's, got to the CF plenty, in another era I could see them getting to the Finals or even winning.
Again, he had his career cut short by injuries but it's shameful he's not in the HOF.

[ProfessorMurder]

Very underrated.

[KG215]

And this has always bugged me...why the f**k isn't this guy in the HOF? I could be wrong, but you really never hear about him being a "snub" either.

[Young X]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm1EEsgoITE

Look at that first layup :applause:

[bizil]

When it comes to the most complete SG's ever, Sid is in the top 6-7 along with MJ, Kobe, Wade, and West. His defensive ability puts him up there. Plus he could run PG or SG, was a freak athlete when healthy, and a very good-great scorer. Many people compare D-Wade to MJ in terms of style of play. And in many ways rightfully so. But at 6'4, I always felt Wade was a mix of David Thompson and Sidney Moncrief.

[To4]

i heard that sidney was a hell of a player.. but can someone enlighten me? like what happend? why people dont talk about him as much?

[Collie]

He got injured and was never the same.

[Collie]

Pressey and Moncrief were one hell of a defensve backcourt. They could both guard anybody from PGs to SFs. They both made all defensive 1st team in 84 and 85. I don't think any other backcourt in history has accomplished that.

[sportjames23]

How the hell is this outplaying MJ?

[Haymaker]

How the hell is this outplaying MJ?

Exactly. And that was a young inexperienced MJ. The only noticeable thing is MJ's FG%, but it's ridiculous to say he was outplayed.

[Owl]

How the hell is this outplaying MJ?

Exactly. And that was a young inexperienced MJ. The only noticeable thing is MJ's FG%, but it's ridiculous to say he was outplayed.
fg%, 3pt%, ft% and turnovers. You know the efficiency stuff that too many people ignore.

So yes Jordan has edges in the counting stats (most notably in assists) but with Moncrief likely taking many less possessions to put up numbers (because of better percentages, less turnovers) so unless Jordan was getting almost all his points at the line (would be interesting to see totals and/or ts%) Moncrief seems to have played better.

Anyway yes, Moncrief was awesome, way too overlooked.

[Fresh Kid]

shout out to moncreif:applause: but he still cud never be better than Jordan tho:no:

[SHAQisGOAT]

How the hell is this outplaying MJ?


Exactly. And that was a young inexperienced MJ. The only noticeable thing is MJ's FG%, but it's ridiculous to say he was outplayed.

.152 above in TS% which is a big difference, "only" scoring 2.8 less ppg, playing 0.8 less mpg, less USG%, 2 less TO's per game, yea Sidney had less assists and rebounds but he did his thing as far as that as well, and like I've said Moncrief was a vet at his best with better teammates around and Jordan a rookie (already great though) but actually winning the series (3-1) also has to count for something. Not to mention they were guarding each other plenty/mostly and Sid actually raised his stats when compared to his regular season as opposed to Jordan.
I don't think that it's ridiculous at all to say that Moncrief outplayed Jordan when you look at everything, imo he did. I think even Jordan would agree, that's why he always had Sid in such a high regard, MJ was out for the 1985-86 regular season and Sidney was never the same or close after his 1986 injury.



fg%, 3pt%, ft% and turnovers. You know the efficiency stuff that too many people ignore.

So yes Jordan has edges in the counting stats (most notably in assists) but with Moncrief likely taking many less possessions to put up numbers (because of better percentages, less turnovers) so unless Jordan was getting almost all his points at the line (would be interesting to see totals and/or ts%) Moncrief seems to have played better.

Anyway yes, Moncrief was awesome, way too overlooked.

As far as TS%
Jordan: .565
Moncrief: .717

Sidney with 13.0 FTA's per game for the series, even playing 42 min that's still ridiculous, his career high in the RS was 7.9 just to compare. Jordan with 14.5 FTA's per game!!

Average pace for the series was 96.8 btw, over the course of 4 games.

Over the course of 8 games in that 1985 PS, Sidney put up 23.0/4.3/5.0/0.6/0.5 on .697 TS% (.556 FG%, .400 3P%, .933 FT%), in 39.9 mpg, with 2.5 TO's, always with all-time great shutdown perimeter D.

[L.Kizzle]

i heard that sidney was a hell of a player.. but can someone enlighten me? like what happend? why people dont talk about him as much?
Jordan happened. He was the best SG in the 80s until Jordan appeared.

He still the 2nd best guard of that 80s decade behind Jordan and in front of Gervin and Drexler.

[Legends66NBA7]

i heard that sidney was a hell of a player.. but can someone enlighten me? like what happend? why people dont talk about him as much?

This:


He got injured and was never the same.

And also he played in Milwaukee, so not much coverage on him. The 80's Bucks teams were great, though, shame they never made a Finals appearance.

[STATUTORY]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm1EEsgoITE

Look at that first layup :applause:

this is why it's so sad when old guys insist on the glory that was 80s ball, half of the dudes in that video looked straight shook at prospect of having to dribble with their off hands. If a modern nba team ran a full court press these fools wouldn't even get passed the half court

[SHAQisGOAT]

i heard that sidney was a hell of a player.. but can someone enlighten me? like what happend? why people dont talk about him as much?

Major knee problems, even some other injuries, after 1986 he was pretty much a shell, shameful because he was still young and just great, could've had more "exposure" if his career lasted longer. He also played in a small market team and in a decade filled with star players. Still managed to have a successful career, and with a great peak/prime, deserves to be in the HOF. Bucks had some great squads in the 80s also, in another (right) decade they would get to the Finals imo.

[SHAQisGOAT]

this is why it's so sad when old guys insist on the glory that was 80s ball, half of the dudes in that video looked straight shook at prospect of having to dribble with their off hands. If a modern nba team ran a full court press these fools wouldn't even get passed the half court

Go troll somewhere else, please.

[Dro]

this is why it's so sad when old guys insist on the glory that was 80s ball, half of the dudes in that video looked straight shook at prospect of having to dribble with their off hands. If a modern nba team ran a full court press these fools wouldn't even get passed the half court
I assume this is sarcasm because guys are dribbling with both hands throughout this entire video. Bringing the ball up with the offhand, going through the legs, behind the back passes, etc. If this isn't sarcasm then :confusedshrug:

Edit: I agree that an argument can be made that Jordan was outplayed by Sidney in this series.

[3LiftHeatCurse]

Rookie MJ, though. A vet played better than a rookie in his 1st playoff series.

Still, rookie MJ put up 28/6/6 on 51% shooting in the reg season, LMAO.

GOAT gonna GOAT

[AirFederer]

this is why it's so sad when old guys insist on the glory that was 80s ball, half of the dudes in that video looked straight shook at prospect of having to dribble with their off hands. If a modern nba team ran a full court press these fools wouldn't even get passed the half court

Off to the ignore list moron:facepalm

[Marchesk]

He shot 62% during his college career.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1978/0213_large.jpg

[Marchesk]

The Bucks had the third best record in the 80s. They were good, but when you have to compete with Boston and Philly, it's tough to make the finals.

This is a nice steal and dunk against Lakers:

http://youtu.be/3ADAo3W4Hos?t=2m4s

fastbreak dunk on the Celtics:

http://youtu.be/3ADAo3W4Hos?t=2m44s

Nice rebound and two handed dunk on the Lakers:

http://youtu.be/3ADAo3W4Hos?t=2m59s

Nice block on the Laker facebreak:

http://youtu.be/3ADAo3W4Hos?t=1m15s

[Collie]

He shot 62% during his college career.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1978/0213_large.jpg

Look at that unathletic old time player.

[TheBigVeto]

And this has always bugged me...why the f**k isn't this guy in the HOF? I could be wrong, but you really never hear about him being a "snub" either.

Now that DJ is in the HOF, Moncrief is the biggest HOF snub ever. Clowns like GP and Rodman are in, and he's not? Niggapleaze.

[fpliii]

bump

[SHAQisGOAT]

bump

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFV59cFZi-U

Highlights from game 4 focused mostly on Sid. Solid offensive game, big on the boards, great D on Michael (Bucks great job as a team too). Terry Cummings was a beast, Paul Pressey could really ball and what a dunk by Woolridge at 16:43 :eek: , he could throw it down.

(Someone's been reading this thread:confusedshrug: I've seen most of this stuff on another forum though.)