Who do you rank higher on your all-time list, Wade or KG?

[longhornfan1234]

I think it's pretty close. :confusedshrug:

[kshutts1]

KG.

But then again, I'm not a KG "homer" and I rate him higher than I've seen anyone rate him.

[Legends66NBA7]

I'm vouching that Garnett ranks higher.

More individual accolades, longer prime, arguably better peak, etc...

[Nuff Said]

I think it's still early to rank Wade. These next couple years can move him up or down on some ppls rankings.

[Haks]

KG, I have KG in my 15-20 region all time and Wade in the 20-25 region
KG: RS..19/10/4/1.3/1.5/ on 50% shooting and 79% from the free throw line.
PO 19/11/3.5/1.3/1.4 on 47% shooting and 79% from the free throw line
MVP+DPOY all time great defender 14 time all star, POTW 20 times and POTM 9 times 8 time All D First and 3 time All D 2ND. 4 time all NBA 1st. 18 Yrs in the NBA. 1 time NBA champion as in my opinion the best player on the team.

D-Wade: RS- 25/6/5/1.7/1 on 49/29/76 57% TS PO- 24/5/5/1.7/1 on 47/32/77 55% TS
9 time all star. 06 Finals MVP. 16 time POTW and 6 time POTM. All D 2nd 3 times. All NBA 1ST once. All NBA 2nd 3 times. All NBA 3rd 3 times. 3 time NBA Champion, 1 as the man.

Wade could finish in my top 20 depending on how well he plays in the up and coming season or 2 but currently I have Garnett ranked higher and I really doubt that will change

[HomieWeMajor]

The Big Ticket

[DukeDelonte13]

KG.

KG IMO was more of a generational type of talent with Wade just being a high level pure scorer that had a brief prime.

Wade did do a lot more for the heat franchise than KG did for either Minny or Boston.

[ProfessorMurder]

Wade did do a lot more for the heat franchise than KG did for either Minny or Boston.

Wut?

[Young X]

Wade: Top 20

KG: Top 15

[ProfessorMurder]

Wade: Top 20

Wut?

[fpliii]

Huge Wade stan, but KG is higher.


Wade: Top 20

KG: Top 15

I think Wade is top 25, maybe top 20. KG is definitely top 15 in my book (I don't keep a list, but there haven't been 15 better/more impactful players).

[DMAVS41]

Really tough call. Lebron's choke in the 11 finals really ****ed way in the all time rankings.

He'd be sitting on 4 titles and 2 finals mvps with career averages of;

25/5/6 on 57% TS regular season

24/6/5 on 55% TS playoffs

But because he is sitting on 3 titles and 1 finals mvp...with no regular season mvp...his ranking isn't as high as his level of play would warrant.

I think it's a toss up at this point between KG and Wade due to KG's great longevity...Wade needs a few more seasons playing at the 11 and 12 level to solidify his all time ranking

[Young X]

Wut?3 rings.

FMVP.

25/6/5 career average.

Statistically, one of the best ever.

Great on both ends.

Great playoff runs/series.

One of the best guards to ever play.

The f*ck is the problem?

[ProfessorMurder]

3 rings.

FMVP.

25/6/5 career average.

Statistically, one of the best ever.

Great on both ends.

Great playoff runs/series.

One of the best guards to ever play.

The f*ck is the problem?

The fact that there are more than people 20 that are better than him.

[Mass Debator]

They are in the same tier. Whether a player is ranked #18 or #22, it really doesn't matter at that point. Just rank who you like better on top of the other.

[The JKidd Kid]

KG is the greatest defensive player since Bill Russell, no disrespect to Wade but he just didnt single handedly affect the game like KG did/does.

[Fresh Kid]

I think it's pretty close. :confusedshrug:
they both overrated but KG wins this.

[Fresh Kid]

KG is the greatest defensive player since Bill Russell
:roll:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Both are top five ever at their position. I rank them on the same tier though. Wade has 3x rings, 1x FMVP, and KG has 1x ring and 1x MVP. I don't see the case from a resume perspective in ranking one over the other, if anything Wade has the advantage. In terms of games and on court impact? KG should be ranked slightly higher, but not significantly.

[MavsSuperFan]

I would rank KG higher, but I feel people overrate him all the time.

To me his one ring was gotten by ring chasing and worse as arguably the second option.

[Fresh Kid]

I would rank KG higher, but I feel people overrate him all the time.

To me his one ring was gotten by ring chasing and worse as arguably the second option.
but he was a season mvp right?

[The JKidd Kid]

I would rank KG higher, but I feel people overrate him all the time.

To me his one ring was gotten by ring chasing and worse as arguably the second option.

He suffered from the same disease that T-Mac did, shitty supporting class-itis.

[Vienceslav]

With how things look at the moment KG is higher.
A fun hypothetical is the 2011 lost ring, we'd be having a different discussion if Wade had 4 rings and 2 FMVPs I think.

[secund2nun]

KG was a much better bball player than Wade. Though Wade maybe remembered as better by the casual fan because big men are extremely underrated and wing players are extremely overrated.

[Dbrog]

Wade is honestly higher. Peak KG was probably top5 most versatile players of all-time. However, his one weakness was scoring (though he still had some nice scoring games). Wade could carry you to a chip with his offense....KG could keep you in the game with his defense. Ultimately, great offense trumps great defense (even if that offense involved a lot of ref help :lol ). I actually don't mind if people rank Dirk over KG either. I'd say they are all fairly close.

[KrizMiz]

As a wade fan, i would pick KG for now!

[All Net]

Lets see how wade finishes his career

KG prime of 23,13 and 6 he was unreal.

[aj1987]

If we're strictly talking about them as players, I'd pick KG. Wade's career is not done yet, so we have to see how me manages his next 3-4 years.

Overall career, Wade definitely. 3x NBA champ and 1x FMVP. Career 25/6/5/2/1 on 49%. That's pretty remarkable.

[Fresh Kid]

If we're strictly talking about them as players, I'd pick KG. Wade's career is not done yet, so we have to see how me manages his next 3-4 years.

Overall career, Wade definitely. 3x NBA champ and 1x FMVP. Career 25/6/5/2/1 on 49%. That's pretty remarkable.
wade messed up in 2010, and 2006 was rigged as well, so kg wins mainly cuz of minnesota days.

[zoom17]

wade messed up in 2010, and 2006 was rigged as well, so kg wins mainly cuz of minnesota days.

:facepalm You think every Heat title is rigged you are a sad man.

[aj1987]

wade messed up in 2010, and 2006 was rigged as well, so kg wins mainly cuz of minnesota days.
Yeah, Stern rigged the Finals and made the Mav's miss clutch FT's.

BTW, Wade and KG >> any player who has ever played for the Knicks.

[KG215]

Wut?
I'm equally confused by this part of his post:



with Wade just being a high level pure scorer

The hell were you watching when you watched peak/prime Wade? Because the Dwyane Wade I watched was a hell of a lot more than "just a pure scorer" (whatever that even means). He was a great all-around, two way guard.

[SamuraiSWISH]

:facepalm You think every Heat title is rigged you are a sad man.
Not rigged, but cheap. Stacking the deck competitively like cowards.

:facepalm

[Jacks3]

KG had a higher peak and far greater longer durability/longevity. He's somewhere in the top 15. Wade? Top 20-25.

[plowking]

Wade.

[zoom17]

Not rigged, but cheap. Stacking the deck competitively like cowards.

:facepalm

:biggums:

[SamuraiSWISH]

:biggums:
Wait, you didn't watch basketball prior to 2010.

LeBron actually used to play for Cleveland, a 2x MVP ... he quit on his team in the playoffs, causing them to lose. And then in an effort to win rings quicker, and verbatim from his mouth "easier"

He chose to join another MVP, top five caliber player and an elite PF in order to finally win. They stacked the deck against their competition like cowards.

[zoom17]

Wait, you didn't watch basketball prior to 2010.

LeBron actually used to play for Cleveland, a 2x MVP ... he quit on his team in the playoffs, causing them to lose. And then in an effort to win rings quicker, and verbatim from his mouth "easier"

He chose to join another MVP, top five caliber player and an elite PF in order to finally win. They stacked the deck against their competition like cowards.

Quit bitching and Blaming Lebron for everything :roll: :roll: :roll:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Quit bitching and Blaming Lebron for everything :roll: :roll: :roll:
?

I'm just telling you what happened.

[aj1987]

Wait, you didn't watch basketball prior to 2010.

LeBron actually used to play for Cleveland, a 2x MVP ... he quit on his team in the playoffs, causing them to lose. And then in an effort to win rings quicker, and verbatim from his mouth "easier"

He chose to join another MVP, top five caliber player and an elite PF in order to finally win. They stacked the deck against their competition like cowards.
How is that being cowardly though? Dude waited for 7 years for the Cav's to give him a good team, and they didn't. Wade's best years (peak) was wasted playing with Beasley as the second best player. The Craptors? Everyone needs a good team to him bro. Even MJ had one of the GOAT perimeter defenders of all time, one of the GOAT rebounder and defender and one the GOAT coaches. Could MJ have won without them? Maybe. But he still had them.

[Legends66NBA7]

BTW, Wade and KG >> any player who has ever played for the Knicks

Patrick Ewing is most certainly on their level.

Walt Frazier and Willis Reed had somewhat similar primes/careers to Wade.

[plowking]

Patrick Ewing is most certainly on their level.

Walt Frazier and Willis Reed had somewhat similar primes/careers to Wade.

Ewing is better than both as an individual player.

Ewing>Wade>Garnett.

[SamuraiSWISH]

How is that being cowardly though? Dude waited for 7 years for the Cav's to give him a good team, and they didn't.
They didn't give him a reliable 2nd option, but they gave him a team that could compete. A team good enough to win consecutive 60+ win seasons. Bron QUIT on them in the middle of a series in 2010, who knows what that team was capable of doing if he didn't pout and quit.


Wade's best years (peak) was wasted playing with Beasley as the second best player. The Craptors?
I'm not disagreeing. Wade didn't go join another alpha caliber player's team though.

It's cowardly because it was STACKING THE DECK in order to win multiple rings, more easily. LeBron said this. "It's going to be easy" ...

That isn't having true competitive spirit. He went from a capable roster that just needed a solid, reliable 2nd option to play sidekick to win rings. And they'd still be meaningful, hard fought rings.

To him hopping franchises to a team stacked to the brim with talent. That even in off years when injured or not playing well, they're STILL more talented than the opposition.

The Heat aren't a great team, their abundance of talent just overwhelms people. They don't have great rapport, their offense isn't great. They just beat teams on pure talent.

No one is doubting one needs help in order to win. I never said otherwise. It's how and to the extent of the amount of help LeBron acquired in order for him to win. The context.

How is what LeBron did courageous to you, bro? He was the best player in the league, joining forces with the 3rd or 4th best player in the league. He could've got help that allowed him to win that wouldn't have been perceived as lacking competitive heart and desire.

[zoom17]

They didn't give him a reliable 2nd option, but they gave him a team that could compete. A team good enough to win consecutive 60+ win seasons. Bron QUIT on them in the middle of a series in 2010, who knows what that team was capable of doing if he didn't pout and quit.


I'm not disagreeing. Wade didn't go join another alpha caliber player's team though.

It's cowardly because it was STACKING THE DECK in order to win multiple rings, more easily. LeBron said this. "It's going to be easy" ...

That isn't having true competitive spirit. He went from a capable roster that just needed a solid, reliable 2nd option to play sidekick to win rings. And they'd still be meaningful, hard fought rings.

To him hopping franchises to a team stacked to the brim with talent. That even in off years when injured or not playing well, they're STILL more talented than the opposition.

The Heat aren't a great team, their abundance of talent just overwhelms people. They don't have great rapport, their offense isn't great. They just beat teams on pure talent.

No one is doubting one needs help in order to win. I never said otherwise. It's how and to the extent of the amount of help LeBron acquired in order for him to win. The context.

How is what LeBron did courageous to you, bro? He was the best player in the league, joining forces with the 3rd or 4th best player in the league. He could've got help that allowed him to win that wouldn't have been perceived as lacking competitive heart and desire.

Get over it it happen IT WAS OVER 3 YEARS ****ING AGO!!!! Shit most cavs fans got over it. Any ways Cant wait til the opener when Lebron takes a big dump on the bulls:rockon:

[aj1987]

They didn't give him a reliable 2nd option, but they gave him a team that could compete. A team good enough to win consecutive 60+ win seasons. Bron QUIT on them in the middle of a series in 2010, who knows what that team was capable of doing if he didn't pout and quit.
The '10 offseason and the Cavs' handling of the Bosh situation, IMO, made Lebron sign with Miami. If Bosh had signed with the Cav's, he wouldn't have joined the Heat.

The 2010 Cav's had a 34 year old Anthony Parker, and 37 year old Shaq starting for them. I don't see them beating the Wade and Bosh led Heat in '11 or the Bull either. What Lebron did was a good career move.



It's cowardly because it was STACKING THE DECK in order to win multiple rings, more easily. LeBron said this. "It's going to be easy" ...
Isn't that the point of playing basketball though? To win? Most teams that won the championship have terrific teams.


That isn't having true competitive spirit. He went from a capable roster that just needed a solid, reliable 2nd option to play sidekick to win rings. And they'd still be meaningful, hard fought rings.
If he did stay, the '11 Cav's would've had a terrible roster. They literally had no one. Even if they did get Bosh, outside of Lebron and Bosh the team was terrible. The centers they had were a 35 year old Big Z and Shaq. He tried staying with them for 7 years, but it obviously didn't work out. If he did resign with them and the Cav's didn't make any moves, he would be just another Malone or Baylor.


To him hopping franchises to a team stacked to the brim with talent. That even in off years when injured or not playing well, they're STILL more talented than the opposition.

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]The Heat aren't a great team, their abundance of talent just overwhelms people. They don't have great rapport, their offense isn't great. They just beat teams on pure talent.
2011 - 3rd best offensive and 5th best defensive team
2012 - 8th best offensive and 4th best defensive team
2013 - 2nd best offensive and 9th best defensive team



How is what LeBron did courageous to you, bro? He was the best player in the league, joining forces with the 3rd or 4th best player in the league. He could've got help that allowed him to win that wouldn't have been perceived as lacking competitive heart and desire.
I didn't say he was courageous, but him staying in Cleveland would've been stupidity though. What he did was not cowardly at all. It was actually pretty smart. He got a good team.

[The JKidd Kid]

Ewing is better than both as an individual player.

Ewing>Wade>Garnett.

Garnett > Ewing > Wade

Garnett was the kind of player that could single handedly turn a awful defensive team into a great one, something Ewing couldn't do.

[DukeDelonte13]

Wut?


Wade won a chip with shaq.

Wade dealt with squandering away his prime years while the FO freed cap space.

Wade recruited Lebron and Bosh to Miami instead of leaving for Chicago in FA.


Wade has done a lot for the Heat franchise.

[NBASTATMAN]

KG over Wade... If Kg played with talent in his prime he would have 3 titles and 2 or 3 MVP'S as well as defensive player of the year wins...

KG is a top 20 player while Wade is more 20-30

[Orlando Magic]

KG is the greatest defensive player since Bill Russell

Wow, you can't be serious.

Btw... KG > Wade.

[Legends66NBA7]

Garnett was the kind of player that could single handedly turn a awful defensive team into a great one, something Ewing couldn't do.

Nonsense.

In Ewing's rookie season, the Knicks went from a bottom 5 defensive team (year before) to a Top 5 defensive team. He missed a chunk, but with the majority of the previous Knicks roster still intact. The difference of their vast defensive improvement

The T-Wolves were never a top 5 defensive team during Garnett's prime (Top 6 in 2004 was their highest). Sure, he went to Boston and got #1 right away (last year of this prime before the injury), but that also had to with the fact that he could now concentrate all his defensive prowess to that end and did not have to score as much, since he now possessed to very good scorers in Pierce and Allen, with Rondo later becoming the most important piece to their offense.

Where was the Ewing's offensive help after him during his prime ? Despite not having the same offensive talent when Garnett went to Boston, from 1992-1997 were at least Top 5 defensively, including Top 1 for 3 straight years from 92-93 to 94-95.

[The JKidd Kid]

Nonsense.

In Ewing's rookie season, the Knicks went from a bottom 5 defensive team (year before) to a Top 5 defensive team. He missed a chunk, but with the majority of the previous Knicks roster still intact. The difference of their vast defensive improvement

The T-Wolves were never a top 5 defensive team during Garnett's prime (Top 6 in 2004 was their highest). Sure, he went to Boston and got #1 right away (last year of this prime before the injury), but that also had to with the fact that he could now concentrate all his defensive prowess to that end and did not have to score as much, since he now possessed to very good scorers in Pierce and Allen, with Rondo later becoming the most important piece to their offense.

Where was the Ewing's offensive help after him during his prime ? Despite not having the same offensive talent when Garnett went to Boston, from 1992-1997 were at least Top 5 defensively, including Top 1 for 3 straight years from 92-93 to 94-95.

Please read this excerpt from a Netsdaily poster before attempting to discredit Garnett's defense. I'd also take Garnett over Ewing as a rebounder, shooter, passer and arguably had a better post game than Ewing.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=308314

[longtime lurker]

Garnett and its not even really close. Wade gets ridiculously overrated on messageboards.

[Legends66NBA7]

Please read this excerpt from a Netsdaily poster before attempting to discredit Garnett's defense. I'd also take Garnett over Ewing as a rebounder, shooter, passer and arguably had a better post game than Ewing.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=308314

I've already read that thread, even posted in it. I'm not discrediting Garnett's defense overall, since it's all-time great level. But the notion that Ewing can't impact a team on defense on the same level like Garnett can in 07-08 when his offensive role reduced is absurd, especially when Ewing anchored all-time great defenses too.

Ewing in a similar situation in the years mentioned, I see no reason why he wouldn't have similar defensive impact/turnaround.

[The JKidd Kid]

I've already read that thread, even posted in it. I'm not discrediting Garnett's defense overall, since it's all-time great level. But the notion that Ewing can't impact a team on defense on the same level like Garnett can in 07-08 when his offensive role reduced is absurd, especially when Ewing anchored all-time great defenses too.

Ewing in a similar situation in the years mentioned, I see no reason why he wouldn't have similar defensive impact/turnaround.

No, Ewing can't, you can tell that just by looking at the awards mentioned at the beginning. When you look at the stats, its even more apparent. Garnett is arguably the greatest defensive player of all time, while Ewing is barely in the conversation.

[aj1987]

Garnett and its not even really close. Wade gets ridiculously overrated on messageboards.
Yeah, a career 25/6/5/2/1 on 49% guy with 3 rings and a FMVP being in the 18-25 range is overrated. :facepalm Dumbass Kobetards.

[DMAVS41]

Yeah, a career 25/6/5/2/1 on 49% guy with 3 rings and a FMVP being in the 18-25 range is overrated. :facepalm Dumbass Kobetards.

They just arbitrarily make shit up left and right...and set absurd criteria.

Just in another thread they basically said that we can't compare guys like Hakeem, Bird, and Dirk to Kobe in the playoffs because Kobe has played more games.

It never ends with them...never seen a player rely more on getting to play with a legit GOAT candidate at the peak of his powers in Shaq for roughly half his career.

[Chrono90]

KG as of now but Wade's career is not over. Wade can still add more to his resume.

[Jacks3]

Garnett and its not even really close. Wade gets ridiculously overrated on messageboards.
yep.

[Lebron23]

Give me Wade.

[longtime lurker]

Yeah, a career 25/6/5/2/1 on 49% guy with 3 rings and a FMVP being in the 18-25 range is overrated. :facepalm Dumbass Kobetards.

Yes let's compare a guy who's been out of his prime for the past 4 years to one who is just starting to exit his. Wade is literally living off 1 finals run and his 09 season. I've never seen Wade so highly regarded anywhere outside of messageboards. When you're comparing careers KG is ahead with his MVP, defensive player of the year and numerous all nba and defensive teams accomplishments. Wades championships on the most stacked team in the don't make up the difference.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Wade actually led a team to a title. Garnett was always Scottie Pippen on steroids. Garnett was destroys Wade in longevity. Wade on the other hand wins a title in his 3rd year with a past prime Shaq and role players.

[SilkkTheShocker]

ProfessorMurder is ALWAYS wrong.

Dude is a marksman at hitting the wrong target

[SamuraiSWISH]

Wade is literally living off 1 finals run and his 09 season.
Really?

2005, 2007 (pre injury), 2008 Olympics, 2010, 2011, and 2012 never happened, right?

Get out of here longtime Laker groupie clown. I hear people outside of ISH refer to Wade in a positive light. The guy is easily a top five @ position all-time.

Why is it always Kobe stans who feel the incessant need to down grade Wade? It's only them. No one else. Why? Insecurity over the fact that outside of longevity, Kobe has no case over Wade. You guys are pathetic.

Their peaks are roughly equal, Kobe just had more of them due to durability and health. God knows how shook you Kobe stans would be if Wade had won in 2011, got another Finals MVP and was now sitting on 4 rings, 2 FMVPs with an opportunity to win more sidekick rings (ala Kobe's first three) ...

I can feel the insecurity over Wade's comparable success to Kobe dripping on every single one of a Kobe stans post.

[jzek]

Wade of course.

He single-handedly carried Miami to a title and gave us one of the best Finals performances in history. His two rings and FMVP trumps KG's one MVP and one ring.

And we all know Wade will get more than 2 rings...

[aj1987]

Yes let's compare a guy who's been out of his prime for the past 4 years to one who is just starting to exit his. Wade is literally living off 1 finals run and his 09 season. I've never seen Wade so highly regarded anywhere outside of messageboards. When you're comparing careers KG is ahead with his MVP, defensive player of the year and numerous all nba and defensive teams accomplishments. Wades championships on the most stacked team in the don't make up the difference.
'05: 24/5/7/2/1 on 48%
'06: 27/6/7/2/1 on 50%
'07: 27/5/7/2/1 on 49% (50 games)
'08: 25/4/7/2/1 on 47% (50 games)
'09: 30/5/8/2/1 on 50%
'10: 27/5/6/2/1 on 48%
'11: 25/6/5/2/1 on 50%
'12: 22/5/5/2/1 on 50%
'13: 21/5/5/2/1 on 52%

That's 9 seasons of being elite right there. That coupled with being a good defender and one of the greatest blocking guards of all time.

Wade was on a stacked team in '06? He carried a past his prime Shaq to a Championship, while having one of the greatest Finals of all time.

Garnett's Celtics weren't stacked? Pierce, Garnett, Allen and Rondo?

Careers?
Garnett: 19 PPG 10.5 RPG 3.9 APG 1.3 SPG 1.5 BPG on 49.8/27.9/79 54.9% TS
Wade ..: 24.7 PPG 5.1 RPG 6.1 BPG 1.8 SPG 1 BPG on 48.9/28.9/76.7 56.7% TS

Playoffs?
Garnett: 19.2 PPG 11.1 RPG 3.5 APG 1.3 SPG 1.4 BPG on 47.7/28.3/79.1 52.4% TS
Wade..: 23.7 PPG 5.5 RPG 5.2 APG 1.7 SPG 1.1 BPG on 47.6/32.1/77.6 55.4% TS

Wade has 3 rings and 1 FMVP
Garnett has one ring as a sidekick


:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[SilkkTheShocker]

Wade of course.

He single-handedly carried Miami to a title and gave us one of the best Finals performances in history. His two rings and FMVP trumps KG's one MVP and one ring.

And we all know Wade will get more than 2 rings...

That is probably a good guess because he already has 3.

[SamuraiSWISH]

KG is super Pippen.

[GrapeApe]

KG probably has a slight edge right now, but Wade has a chance to finish his career with a top 15 resume. The comments about Wade being overrated are laughable. He's one of the more underrated superstars in history.

[SilkkTheShocker]

KG is super Pippen.

Yep. You aren't winning a title with him being the guy the taking the big shots. People can talk up versatility, longevity, etc all the **** they want. But KG never had the stones to put a team on his back and do what Wade did in 06. All you get with KG is excuses. Wade on the other hand won a title as THE MAN in his 3rd year. And you can't even use the Shaq argument because the man was effectively out of his prime in 2006. Still a force, but he wasn't as dominant. KG missed the playoffs 3x in a row in his ****ing prime. I don't care how terrible the roster might have been. THAT IS PATHETIC.

[Legends66NBA7]

No, Ewing can't, you can tell that just by looking at the awards mentioned at the beginning. When you look at the stats, its even more apparent. Garnett is arguably the greatest defensive player of all time, while Ewing is barely in the conversation.

DPOY voting and defensive awards ? Ewing went up against better defensive adversaries at his position in Hakeem, Robinson, Mutombo, and Mourning vs Howard, Wallace, old Mutombo. Garnett wouldn't get a DPOY over them, certainly not a clear cut choice.

Stats ? I don't see any stats that give either player big edge.

And no, Garnett isn't in the argument for GOAT defensive player. Bill Russell is that choice and if it's modern era arguments, then it's Hakeem.

[tpols]

Why are people acting like you need more help around garnett than you do around Wade to win a championship?

Wade is more dominant offensively, while KG was dominant defensively.. anchored one of the best defenses ever.


Theyre pretty much equal.. you give KG a 20/5/5 type all star guard and some defensive role players and they could challenge anyone.. give Wade a post prime 20/10 Shaq or any other 20/10 big man and he could challenge anyone. Theyre right there with each other.

[Legends66NBA7]

He's one of the more underrated superstars in history.

No he isn't. Not overrated either, but he's not amongst the most underrated in history.

He's certainly not underrated now, some say he's a Top 3 SG after his 3rd ring.

[SilkkTheShocker]

DPOY voting and defensive awards ? Ewing went up against better defensive adversaries at his position in Hakeem, Robinson, Mutombo, and Mourning vs Howard, Wallace, old Mutombo. Garnett wouldn't get a DPOY over them, certainly not a clear cut choice.

Stats ? I don't see any stats that give either player big edge.

And no, Garnett isn't in the argument for GOAT defensive player. Bill Russell is that choice and if it's modern era arguments, then it's Hakeem.

Ewing is comically underrated.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Why are people acting like you need more help around garnett than you do around Wade to win a championship?

Wade is more dominant offensively, while KG was dominant defensively.. anchored one of the best defenses ever.


Theyre pretty much equal.. you give KG a 20/5/5 type all star guard and some defensive role players and they could challenge anyone.. give Wade a post prime 20/10 Shaq or any other 20/10 big man and he could challenge anyone. Theyre right there with each other.

Probably because the 06 Heat were far from stacked.

[Legends66NBA7]

Ewing is comically underrated.

Seriously. :oldlol:

The man who anchored a Top 5 defense from 91-92 to 96-97 for the Knicks apparently can't impact a defense on the level of Garnett. Makes no sense if Ewing got the same opportunity in 07 that Garnett did.

Came across this article a couple of days ago in another thread on Top 25 offensive and defensive teams of all-time:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=6205

The 92-93 Knicks, according to the defensive criteria, are the GOAT defensive team. The 07-08 Celtics came in 8th, 93-94 Knicks came in 24th.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Seriously. :oldlol:

The man who anchored a Top 5 defense from 91-92 to 96-97 for the Knicks apparently can't impact a defense on the level of Garnett. Makes no sense if Ewing got the same opportunity in 07 that Garnett did.

Came across this article a couple of days ago in another thread on Top 25 offensive and defensive teams of all-time:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=6205

The 92-93 Knicks, according to the defensive criteria, are the GOAT defensive team. The 07-08 Celtics came in 8th, 93-94 Knicks came in 24th.

Good find. For some reason there is a myth that those 90s Knicks teams were stacked. That was far from the case. By the time Houston and Sprewell came in, Ewing's knees were already cooked.

[Young X]

Can someone please explain to me how the Celtics won with KG leading them in 4th quarter scoring since he's just a sidekick?

Top 5 in MVP voting, DPOY, All NBA 1st, 26/14/4 in game 6 of the NBA finals = sidekick.

Doubling the 2nd best player on your team in 4th quarter field goals in the playoffs = sidekick.

Cool.

[SilkkTheShocker]

KG's best playoff moment his whole career was beating up on a crippled Chris Webber. Wade on the other hand has one of the greatest Finals performances ever under his belt. Hmmm...this is a tough one.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Good find. For some reason there is a myth that those 90s Knicks teams were stacked. That was far from the case. By the time Houston and Sprewell came in, Ewing's knees were already cooked.

What this guy said.

[Young X]

KG missed the playoffs 3x in a row in his ****ing prime. I don't care how terrible the roster might have been. THAT IS PATHETIC.So did Oscar Robertson, Kareem missed the playoffs twice in a row in his prime too.

C'mon man, you as a Bron fan should know you don't win without help. Look at how terrible the Wolves were/are before and after KG - I don't even think they ever passed the 30 win mark without KG. (?)

[SamuraiSWISH]

Young X, my well educated basketball buddy.

I don't think KG wasn't the Celtics best player, I don't even think anyone is insinuating that. When they say sidekick, I think they refer to mentality and scoring abilities or aggressiveness.

Like Pippen he's a jack of all trades but his mentality late in games isn't near as aggressive as he is earlier in games. He's never been a big time closer or clutch player or scorer, these were all knocks on KG through out his career.

KG? Pippen? Amazing all around players, I think natural betas, people who weren't exactly clutch or elite volume scorers. They both needed an elite scorer to compliment his team hole filling, stat stuffing everywhere else.

[Young X]

Young X, my well educated basketball buddy.

I don't think KG wasn't the Celtics best player, I don't even think anyone is insinuating that. When they say sidekick, I think they refer to mentality and scoring abilities or aggressiveness.

Like Pippen he's a jack of all trades but his mentality late in games isn't near as aggressive as he is earlier in games. He's never been a big time closer or clutch player or scorer, these were all knocks on KG through out his career.

KG? Pippen? Amazing all around players, I think natural betas, people who weren't exactly clutch or elite volume scorers. They both needed an elite scorer to compliment his team hole filling, stat stuffing everywhere else.I actually agree with you about KG's mentality - he's not the alpha Jordan/Kobe personality, he's has more of a unselfish mentality and it's my biggest criticism of him. If you're talking about mentality I agree with the Pippen comparisons but that's where it stops. Pippen was nowhere near as dominant and impactful as KG and I don't understand why the "KG can't take over" myth keeps getting spouted - you don't lead your team in 4th quarter scoring in the playoffs en route to a championship if you can't take over.

Imagine MJ and KG on the same team tho? Perfect duo.

[aj1987]

Can someone please explain to me how the Celtics won with KG leading them in 4th quarter scoring since he's just a sidekick?

Top 5 in MVP voting, DPOY, All NBA 1st, 26/14/4 in game 6 of the NBA finals = sidekick.

Doubling the 2nd best player on your team in 4th quarter field goals in the playoffs = sidekick.

Cool.
18/13 on 47% TS% (17.5 FGA), compared to Allen's 20/5 on 71% TS% or Pierce's 22/5/6 on 59% TS%.

[Young X]

18/13 on 47% TS% (17.5 FGA), compared to Allen's 20/5 on 71% TS% or Pierce's 22/5/6 on 59% TS%.Those are offensive numbers from the finals without any mention of defense - the reason the '08 Celtics won. KG led them in 4th quarter scoring for the whole playoffs too.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Imagine MJ and KG on the same team tho? Perfect duo.
That's why I call KG "Super Pippen" and not a "sidekick" ... KG was better than Pierce and Ray Allen. Easily, and that's a fact. He was MVP caliber in the 2008 regular season. KG's the reason they were so dominant, and NBA championship material. Ray Allen and Pierce aren't going to be that dominant together.

Even with an improved Rondo in 2009, with just those together, sans KG they weren't nothing more than 2nd round fodder for one of the weakest Finals opponents in recent memory.

Pippen, even though Pippen stans (Smoke117) and Kobe stans want to prop him up to absurd levels. He was essentially a derivative of Jordan himself, just not near as good. MJ programmed, and groomed him based on his own game and mentality. Thus, a sidekick. Robin.

KG? He's better than a simple sidekick, but he needs a dude to score and close for him. See Pierce in 2008 and 2010. MJ and KG would be utterly terrifying. As if MJ and Pippen already weren't.

Both MJ and KG are intense, KG a bigger and even better version of Pippen. Yet he would totally be submissive to MJ's alpha, and let Mike take over when needed. The difference in KG being an even better scorer, and player closer to the basket than Pippen. It would be hell for opponents.

[ProfessorMurder]

Young X, my well educated basketball buddy.

I don't think KG wasn't the Celtics best player, I don't even think anyone is insinuating that. When they say sidekick, I think they refer to mentality and scoring abilities or aggressiveness.

Like Pippen he's a jack of all trades but his mentality late in games isn't near as aggressive as he is earlier in games. He's never been a big time closer or clutch player or scorer, these were all knocks on KG through out his career.

KG? Pippen? Amazing all around players, I think natural betas, people who weren't exactly clutch or elite volume scorers. They both needed an elite scorer to compliment his team hole filling, stat stuffing everywhere else.

KG is a beta? :oldlol:

[Legends66NBA7]

18/13 on 47% TS% (17.5 FGA), compared to Allen's 20/5 on 71% TS% or Pierce's 22/5/6 on 59% TS%.

And Garnett's defense > Pierce > Allen.

Garnett didn't have to score as much as he did back on the T-Wolves. Not like he couldn't score, but now that he had very good scorers on his team, he could concentrate majority of his energy on the defensive side.

If Doc Rivers wanted Garnett to take more shots and get 20+ppg on a high%, he's probably going to do it (which he did for close to a decade in before he joined the Celtics), but didn't have too. Infact, this worked wonders, and the 07-08 Celtics are one of the best defensive teams of all-time because of it, while still having a solid offensive core.

Which is why in my conversations about Ewing here, there's no way his defensive impact would be any different. There would be more post presence and less pick and roll defense, but the influence would still be there.

[Young X]

@Swoosh

It wasn't your post I was replying too it was aj1987's post. I actually agree with you about the Super Pippen thing. They're both the "Jack of all trades master of none" offensively and great defenders. I've always said KG is a dominant version of Pippen.

:cheers:

[The JKidd Kid]

DPOY voting and defensive awards ? Ewing went up against better defensive adversaries at his position in Hakeem, Robinson, Mutombo, and Mourning vs Howard, Wallace, old Mutombo. Garnett wouldn't get a DPOY over them, certainly not a clear cut choice.

Stats ? I don't see any stats that give either player big edge.

And no, Garnett isn't in the argument for GOAT defensive player. Bill Russell is that choice and if it's modern era arguments, then it's Hakeem.

Hakeem? Based on what? I supported my argument that Garnett is the superior defensive player than Ewing, while you didn't, you just repeatedly said that Ewing was a good defender or gave him all the credit for a team improving defensively without actually backing it up.

[Legends66NBA7]

Hakeem? Based on what? I supported my argument that Garnett is the superior defensive player than Ewing, while you didn't, you just repeatedly said that Ewing was a good defender or gave him all the credit for a team improving defensively without actually backing it up.

Well, if it's based awards and voting since your brought it up, Hakeem has that and mind you was playing against better defensive bigs overall. If RAPM or whatever stat has tracked Hakeem's careers, please present it. If it's stats, Hakeem has better defensive raw stats from rebounding, steals, and blocks. Even carries over into the playoffs if I'm not mistaken.

When did I say Ewing was a better defender than Garnett? :confusedshrug:. Never even brought up who was better.

I said Ewing can impact a defense pretty damn good too given same opportunity on that same 07-08 squad. Saying otherwise and only Garnett can isn't true it all. Hell, 07-08 Duncan could have impacted that Celtics defense pretty damn well too if not better given a limit to his scoring contributions and could have won a ring that year too.

[aj1987]

Those are offensive numbers from the finals without any mention of defense - the reason the '08 Celtics won. KG led them in 4th quarter scoring for the whole playoffs too.
KG - 28
Allen - 26
Pierce - 32

Total points scored by them in the 4th quarters.

KG was definitely a sidekick. Allen and Pierce had more impact. Allen shot a ridiculous 70% (TS) and scored 20 PPG and Pierce had 22 on 59% (TS).

Garnett was really good defensively and he played pretty well, but IMO Allen and Pierce had more impact.

[Young X]

^WTF are you talking about? Why are you just focusing on the finals?

[aj1987]

^WTF are you talking about? Why are you just focusing on the finals?
I was talking about him being a sidekick in the Finals.

Anyways, if you're just comparing players, KG is ahead of Wade. Wade's career isn't done yet so it will change.

However, overall (including rings, etc.), Wade is higher.

[Pointguard]

KG - 28
Allen - 26
Pierce - 32

Total points scored by them in the 4th quarters.

KG was definitely a sidekick. Allen and Pierce had more impact. Allen shot a ridiculous 70% (TS) and scored 20 PPG and Pierce had 22 on 59% (TS).

Garnett was really good defensively and he played pretty well, but IMO Allen and Pierce had more impact.

Pierce and Allen both were scoring in the 4th quarter of blowouts, mainly that last game. Pierce was borderline shameful in his attempt to win MVP.

KG was the leading scorer in the playoffs overall and was a good 50 percentage points higher than Pierce as well in efficiency. You just lying to yourself if you remotely thought that Pierce was a better player. Even Pierce says KG changed the whole culture of the team. Do you think Pierce ever lead a great defensive team? Did you see how Kobe managed to dunk all over a great defensive team in SA but rarely ever got to the rim on Boston? Did any team get to the rim frequently on Boston that year. Who do you think was the heart of the team? Are you really serious?

Or maybe you think impact means something else. But Pierce or Allen weren't close to KG in impact. Scoring yes, but that was close.

[Pointguard]

If Wade had more healthy years he would unquestionably be ranked top 15. But he has like only three years that I can really say he played it great from beginning to end. Most great guys have like five years. But he did single handily devour the Mavericks and another great scorer in the finals and that goes a long way. But to move out other greats - you need good years in the half of dozen range if others are knocking out twice as many stellar years.

[The JKidd Kid]

Pierce and Allen both were scoring in the 4th quarter of blowouts, mainly that last game. Pierce was borderline shameful in his attempt to win MVP.

KG was the leading scorer in the playoffs overall and was a good 50 percentage points higher than Pierce as well in efficiency. You just lying to yourself if you remotely thought that Pierce was a better player. Even Pierce says KG changed the whole culture of the team. Do you think Pierce ever lead a great defensive team? Did you see how Kobe managed to dunk all over a great defensive team in SA but rarely ever got to the rim on Boston? Did any team get to the rim frequently on Boston that year. Who do you think was the heart of the team? Are you really serious?

Or maybe you think impact means something else. But Pierce or Allen weren't close to KG in impact. Scoring yes, but that was close.

Exactly, it's like people forget about the other half of the game and act like it isn't important.

[niko]

Wade. Just because that team had no business winning a title, and he willed them to it. Literally and sickeningly. But i can't quibble with the argument either way.

[SamuraiSWISH]

If Wade had more healthy years he would unquestionably be ranked top 15. But he has like only three years that I can really say he played it great from beginning to end. Most great guys have like five years. But he did single handily devour the Mavericks and another great scorer in the finals and that goes a long way. But to move out other greats - you need good years in the half of dozen range if others are knocking out twice as many stellar years.
I agree. But c'mon, only 3 seasons?

In his rookie year he kicked it up to a high gear in the playoffs, carried Lamar Odom and Caron Butler further than Kobe in 2005, 2006, and 2007.

By his sophomore year, he had usurped Shaq easily and was on the verge of leading the Heat with past their prime role players and Shaq past the 2004 Pistons before he suffered an odd, freak injury in the ECF.

2005
2006
2007 pre-injury was arguably better than any of his seasons not named 2009
2009
2010
2011

And even 2012 gets underrated. He wasn't top five caliber but he gave you like 22/6/5 and a ring.

I mean in 2007 pre injury, he was MVP caliber.

In 2006, 2009, 2010, and 2011 he's anywhere from top 3 - top 5. Even this year in 2013 during that 27 game winning streak he was kicking it into a higher gear. Putting up good numbers, limited minutes, on amazing efficiency.

Wade is underrated. It's a shame injury in 2007, 2008, and 2013 playoffs ruined his consistency or longevity perceptions.

[Legends66NBA7]

If Wade had more healthy years he would unquestionably be ranked top 15.

Sure it would. Wade, even healthy, isn't a lock for Top 15.

[SamuraiSWISH]

On-court production wise he absolutely is top 15.
This. He still may end up that way. If he comes back healthy, wins maybe 2 more rings, possibly even stealing an additional Finals MVP. Anything is possible. I'd already have him at the #4 spot all-time among SGs.

The only think keeping him from top 15 plus, is many of those guys in the top 15 - top 10 are transcendent, generational defining players. The transcendent player of this generation is LeBron.

The transcendent player of the post MJ era is Shaq.

Kobe is Wade's closest competitor, Kobe is more well known, popular, and has more longevity than Wade ... so he gets the nod into that category over Dwyane.

But production wise, even peaks they're not all that dissimilar. That's why Kobe stans are so frightened by Wade, and stop at nothing to devalue his worth to the game.

[Papaya Petee]

KG might be ranked higher due to longetivity, but as an overall player, impact wise, and success wise it is Wade.

More rings, FMVP, fantastic stats for his career, with only injuries and LeBron in 2011 stopping him from a top 10 player of all time argument.

Right now KG is around 18-20 All-Time and Wade is 20-25 all time. Both legends.

[Pointguard]

I agree. But c'mon, only 3 seasons?

In his rookie year he kicked it up to a high gear in the playoffs, carried Lamar Odom and Caron Butler further than Kobe in 2005, 2006, and 2007.

By his sophomore year, he had usurped Shaq easily and was on the verge of leading the Heat with past their prime role players and Shaq past the 2004 Pistons before he suffered an odd, freak injury in the ECF.

2005
2006
2007 pre-injury was arguably better than any of his seasons not named 2009
2009
2010
2011

And even 2012 gets underrated. He wasn't top five caliber but he gave you like 22/6/5 and a ring.

I mean in 2007 pre injury, he was MVP caliber.

In 2006, 2009, 2010, and 2011 he's anywhere from top 3 - top 5. Even this year in 2013 during that 27 game winning streak he was kicking it into a higher gear. Putting up good numbers, limited minutes, on amazing efficiency.

Wade is underrated. It's a shame injury in 2007, 2008, and 2013 playoffs ruined his consistency or longevity perceptions.
I did say great years and from beginning to end. You got four years and I have three - it still supports my point. Its not that big of difference. But his contemporaries - Kobe, KG, Duncan and Lebron have double your amount. And rarely a year like Wade's 2011 from beginning to end. For top 20 he needs more great years. If we give Wade four great years we are basically talking the time period less than Oscar's 5 year triple double average where he was getting over 30ppg too. Its a bit unfair to give Wade a pass. Most greats have about seven great years.