Why are Kyrie and Rose ranked so highly

[Marchesk]

if they don't play much in the way of defense? Everyone loves to criticize Westbrook, but he does defend well, and he's every bit the athlete of those other two, if not more. He did have a 40+ game on Miami in the finals - what did Rose do against that team?

Westbrook just needs to improve his decision making and efficiency and he'll challenge CP3 for best PG in the league. You can say that Rose has an MVP, but he also wasn't playing with a three time scoring champ on his team.

[TheReal Kendall]

I don't get it.

You guys always abuse Melo for lack of D but praise these guys

[Le Shaqtus]

When I watched Rose he played defense... I don't know what you see.

But yeah Kyrie with all his offensive prowess is pitiful on the defensive end, but he's young so I'm sure he'll become a better defensive player as he matures (hopefully).

[All Net]

Kyrie is only 21...

[Le Shaqtus]

Also defense, while it is helpful, is not so important at the PG spot as it is at other positions.

[Marchesk]

I don't get it.

You guys always abuse Melo for lack of D but praise these guys

Yeah, put Melo on the Bulls and he'll have a similar effect as Rose. The Bulls need a scoring threat.

Hell, that's one way Melo could win an MVP. If he were on a team such as Indianna, Memphis or Chicago.

[Dengness9]

if they don't play much in the way of defense? Everyone loves to criticize Westbrook, but he does defend well, and he's every bit the athlete of those other two, if not more. He did have a 40+ game on Miami in the finals - what did Rose do against that team?

Westbrook just needs to improve his decision making and efficiency and he'll challenge CP3 for best PG in the league. You can say that Rose has an MVP, but he also wasn't playing with a three time scoring champ on his team.


So you are propping up Westbrook for going for 40+ in a game against the Heat, then you take away from Rose again saying he doesn't have a 3 time reigning champ on his team and thats why he won MVP.......

Hence why Rose was MVP playing w/ out a 3 time reigning scoring champ and his team still managed to get to 62 regular seasons wins, and for the record the Thunder only 1 game against the Heat in the finals the year after the Bulls won 1 game in the ECF finals.

AND......Westbrook would have a lot easier time going for 40 against the Heat then Rose. Durant commands so much attention its not even funny. Deng and Boozer are NOWHERE near Durant level obviously. The defense against Rose can be much more concentrated by any team playing the Bulls as oppose to how teams have to game plan for 2 superstars on OKC instead of the 1 the Bulls have.

Can't have it both ways.

If Derrick Rose had Kevin Durant on his team they would have already won a championship. Just my opinion but Rose/Durant would mesh a lot better if you ask me.

[Dengness9]

Yeah, put Melo on the Bulls and he'll have a similar effect as Rose. The Bulls need a scoring threat.

Hell, that's one way Melo could win an MVP. If he were on a team such as Indianna, Memphis or Chicago.


Derrick Rose already proved he can score and ASSIST. Melo has to change his approach a lil bit, ill keep saying it til he does, if he even does.

Carmelo Anthony = Modern day Dominque Wilkins

[Cali Syndicate]

if they don't play much in the way of defense? Everyone loves to criticize Westbrook, but he does defend well, and he's every bit the athlete of those other two, if not more. He did have a 40+ game on Miami in the finals - what did Rose do against that team?

Westbrook just needs to improve his decision making and efficiency and he'll challenge CP3 for best PG in the league. You can say that Rose has an MVP, but he also wasn't playing with a three time scoring champ on his team.

It's easy to knock rose when he was the sole focus for the heats defense. If Durant wasn't in the picture, and Westbrook had to deal with lebron covering him with the rest of the heat shadowing his every move, yeah I'm sure he'd have a lot more trouble doing what he does.

And Kyrie is a beast. Nuff said.

[Marchesk]

If Derrick Rose had Kevin Durant on his team they would have already won a championship. Just my opinion but Rose/Durant would mesh a lot better if you ask me.

Well yeah, the Bulls are a deeper team with a superior front line and a better coach. All they lack is play makers.

I'm curious about Rose and Durant meshing better. So you think Rose would feel less of a need to force the offense with Durant, whereas Westbrook is still going to be forcing up shots when he should be looking for Durant at times?

[Marchesk]

It's easy to knock rose when he was the sole focus for the heats defense. If Durant wasn't in the picture, and Westbrook had to deal with lebron covering him with the rest of the heat shadowing his every move, yeah I'm sure he'd have a lot more trouble doing what he does.

That's true. And the Heat did adjust their defense the next game to prevent Westbrook from breaking down their defense like he was.

I didn't like what I saw of Rose in that ECF. He was forcing the offense with his crazy shot attempts against a defense that obviously was keying heavily on him. I thought he should have tried to get his teammates involved more.

[DukeDelonte13]

most of the time, offensively gifted players aren't usually the best defenders, and defensively gifted players aren't usually great offensive players. There are exceptions of course, but most of the exceptions didn't come into the league playing amazing defense.

How many players in today's game are truly two-way players? And of that number how many came in as lock down defenders at 21 and 22 years old?

[nathanjizzle]

rose has gotten really underrated.

[Unbiased_one]

most of the time, offensively gifted players aren't usually the best defenders, and defensively gifted players aren't usually great offensive players. There are exceptions of course, but most of the exceptions didn't come into the league playing amazing defense.

How many players in today's game are truly two-way players? And of that number how many came in as lock down defenders at 21 and 22 years old?

Duncan, Garnett, Dwight, lebron, cp3. Of those only Duncan was a true two-way when he came into the league.

[DukeDelonte13]

Duncan, Garnett, Dwight, lebron, cp3. Of those only Duncan was a true two-way when he came into the league.


That's what i'm talking about. Only a mere handful of players at any given time are truly 2 way players.

[ralph_i_el]

I don't get it.

You guys always abuse Melo for lack of D but praise these guys

when melo was their age people gave him plenty of passes for his D too.

[TheReturn]

Somehow the myth that Rose can't play defense is accepted on ISH but it's completely false.

[RedBlackAttack]

Duncan, Garnett, Dwight, lebron, cp3. Of those only Duncan was a true two-way when he came into the league.
Right. James was a pretty horrible defender his first two seasons and really didn't start to improve until Mike Brown got the coaching job.

Kyrie is a bad defender, but give the guy a chance to develop his game a bit. He just turned 21 a few months ago.

I would assume Brown will do wonders for his defensive game. Kyrie hasn't given much of an effort on that end in his first two seasons. He actually improved a bit last year from his rookie year, but was still pretty bad... Just not as bad.

I'd be surprised if Brown doesn't turn him into at least a serviceable defender, which is really all you need at the PG position.

I don't watch Rose enough to comment on his defensive abilities or lack thereof.

[Pointguard]

That's true. And the Heat did adjust their defense the next game to prevent Westbrook from breaking down their defense like he was.

I didn't like what I saw of Rose in that ECF. He was forcing the offense with his crazy shot attempts against a defense that obviously was keying heavily on him. I thought he should have tried to get his teammates involved more.

Wait a second. Thibes put his best defensive guard on Wade in the fourth quarters and he did a great job on him. Whom am I talking about? What point guard held the elite at his position to below 40% that year? What team ran on Chicago that year? What star guard came off on Chicago? Why was Rose on Wade? Why does Rose guard Westbrook and Westbrook doesn't guard Rose? Rose always takes the PG assignment and will sometimes take the SG assignment if the SG is a superstar. Why is this? Don't they have the best defensive minded coach in the league?

As far as the offense being keyed on Rose, yes they were but to break a trap other players have to step up. There were two games where Noah and Boozer were benched in the fourth for not knowing where to go.

[Le Shaqtus]

Somehow the myth that Rose can't play defense is accepted on ISH but it's completely false.

I don't know where people get these preconceptions from.

[The JKidd Kid]

Somehow the myth that Rose can't play defense is accepted on ISH but it's completely false.

Actually, it's completely true. Based on the stats he had a Andrea Bargnani-like negative effect on the Bulls defense when he was on the floor vs when he was off, for both his MVP season and injury riddled 2011-12 season.

[The JKidd Kid]

Don't get me started on Kyrie Irving. The guy is more one dimensional than Melo and people still commonly rank him over other guards like Curry, Williams and Rondo. Kyrie is a below average defender and a below average passer, not to mention he's turnover prone and a chuck. If it wasn't for his flashy play and the hype surrounding him as Lebrons replacement, he would be lucky to crack the top 10 PGs.

[KyleKong]

Top PG's:

1 - CP3
2 - Westbrook
3 - Rose*A
4 - Williams
5 - Irving
6 - Parker
7- Rondo*B
8- Curry
9- Wall
10 - Lawson

*A= Depending on if Rose really does come back 100%

*B= Depending on how Rondo will be able to distribute the ball and run plays now that all three HoFs are not surrounding him.

[Dengness9]

Well yeah, the Bulls are a deeper team with a superior front line and a better coach. All they lack is play makers.

I'm curious about Rose and Durant meshing better. So you think Rose would feel less of a need to force the offense with Durant, whereas Westbrook is still going to be forcing up shots when he should be looking for Durant at times?

Your last paragraph is exactly how I feel.

Look, I'm not knocking Russy. He's an unreal talent and a bonafide star. I just think Rose is a more willing passer, or at least would be w/ Durant as a teammate.

I don't think many would argue that Rose is harder to play w/ than Russy. We've seen Westbrook have minor chemistry issues with Durant here and there. I don't think you would see that w/ Rose and Durant, especially because those two are more in the quiet/non confrontational types.

[Uncle Drew]

Don't get me started on Kyrie Irving. The guy is more one dimensional than Melo and people still commonly rank him over other guards like Curry, Williams and Rondo. Kyrie is a below average defender and a below average passer, not to mention he's turnover prone and a chuck. If it wasn't for his flashy play and the hype surrounding him as Lebrons replacement, he would be lucky to crack the top 10 PGs.
I see you're still mad about Kyrie > Deron

[AussieG]

Also defense, while it is helpful, is not so important at the PG spot as it is at other positions.
Depends on how the opposing team is structured. Against Thunder or Spurs it's everything.

[The JKidd Kid]

Depends on how the opposing team is structured. Against Thunder or Spurs it's everything.

Same with Knicks, Warriors, Bulls, basically any team that features pick n roll a lot in its offense... Which is almost every team. The idea that PG defense doesn't matter is absolutely ridiculous and was just made up by the fans of horrible defensive PGs like Kyrie, Curry and Rose to support their narrative.

[Dengness9]

Actually, it's completely true. Based on the stats he had a Andrea Bargnani-like negative effect on the Bulls defense when he was on the floor vs when he was off, for both his MVP season and injury riddled 2011-12 season.


This stat always gets me. And it's used commonly by people who don't understand why or watch the Bulls enough.

You do realize both seasons the Bulls starting 5's defense was no where near as good as the Bulls bench mob's defense.

The 2nd unit that held teams to such lows was because Deng stayed on the floor and Bulls brought guys like Brewer, Taj, and Asik off the bench. Bench mob was all about defense.

The Bulls 1st unit defense has suffered not from Derrick Rose but from Carlos Boozer's lack of being able to play any kind of defense.

Got it now?

[The JKidd Kid]

This stat always gets me. And it's used commonly by people who don't understand why or watch the Bulls enough.

You do realize both seasons the Bulls starting 5's defense was no where near as good as the Bulls bench mob's defense.

The 2nd unit that held teams to such lows was because Deng stayed on the floor and Bulls brought guys like Brewer, Taj, and Asik off the bench. Bench mob was all about defense.

The Bulls 1st unit defense has suffered not from Derrick Rose but from Carlos Boozer's lack of being able to play any kind of defense.

Got it now?

No, no, no. If you compare the defensive production of Rose with the Bulls vs. defensive production of the same line up with CJ Watson, there is an Andrea Bargnani-like difference and CJ Watson isnt even a great defender, hes at best slightly above average. Also, the Bulls in general are a team where it is hard to judge a players individual defense considering the semi-zone defense that they implement. If that stats say that hes a bad defender, then thats what we have to beleive considering that none of us are NBA scouts and have watched hours of footage, specifically focusing on Rose playing defense in order to form an opinion using the eye-test.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Deron Williams couldn't even beat Nate Robinson's Bulls

[Budadiiii]

Baffles me just as much as the next guy. You have to remember, a lot of these guys don't have any common sense and are utter failures in the real world and with their online persona. They lack any sort of know-how and have a negative aura. Straight up inferior losers. Guys like Silkk actually get it, regardless of what you morons have to say about his trolling. The guy gets it.

[chips93]

Actually, it's completely true. Based on the stats he had a Andrea Bargnani-like negative effect on the Bulls defense when he was on the floor vs when he was off, for both his MVP season and injury riddled 2011-12 season.

thats because hes a mediocre defender, on a team full of great defenders

so he stood out, statistically

if he didnt have a negative impact defensively on a team like the bulls, you would have to conclude that he is a reason why they are such a great defensive team.

so all you are really saying by pointing out that stat, is that he isnt one of the reasons the bulls are amazing on defense.

[The JKidd Kid]

thats because hes a mediocre defender, on a team full of great defenders

so he stood out, statistically

if he didnt have a negative impact defensively on a team like the bulls, you would have to conclude that he is a reason why they are such a great defensive team.

so all you are really saying by pointing out that stat, is that he isnt one of the reasons the bulls are amazing on defense.

No, I'm pointing out that he has a negative affect on the Bulls defense, which means he is a bad defender. You can switch around the words all you want but the stats say he's a bad defender and there's nothing reputable saying that he is a good one.

[nathanjizzle]

No, I'm pointing out that he has a negative affect on the Bulls defense, which means he is a bad defender. You can switch around the words all you want but the stats say he's a bad defender and there's nothing reputable saying that he is a good one.

:roll: you really think d rose has a neg affect on defense:roll: you dont know what you are talking about.

[TheMilkyBarKid]

Is Westbrook> Rose actually a popular opinion on here or am I just being paranoid?

[aj1987]

Is Westbrook> Rose actually a popular opinion on here or am I just being paranoid?
Derrick Rose (MVP Season):
25 PPG 4.1 RPG 7.7 APG 1.0 SPG 0.6 BPG 3.4 TOV on 44.5/33.2/85.8

Russell Westbrook (2013):
23.2 PPG 5.2 RPG 7.4 APG 1.8 SPG 0.3 BPG 3.3 TOV on 43.8/32.3/80

Considering that Westbrook is a significantly better defender, they're almost equal, but I'd give Rose a slight edge over Westbrook.

[nathanjizzle]

Derrick Rose (MVP Season):
25 PPG 4.1 RPG 7.7 APG 1.0 SPG 0.6 BPG 3.4 TOV on 44.5/33.2/85.8

Russell Westbrook (2013):
23.2 PPG 5.2 RPG 7.4 APG 1.8 SPG 0.3 BPG 3.3 TOV on 43.8/32.3/80

Considering that Westbrook is a significantly better defender, they're almost equal, but I'd give Rose a slight edge over Westbrook.

cool stats bro, but when playing against elite teams rose score 28 points and 7 assist while westbrook had under 20 and 5 assists:lol

[aj1987]

cool stats bro, but when playing against elite teams rose score 28 points and 7 assist while westbrook had under 20 and 5 assists:lol
Did I not say that Rose is better than Westbrook? Re-read my post.

[nathanjizzle]

Did I not say that Rose is better than Westbrook? Re-read my post.

yes, you said slightly better basing that on general stats. when my stats that are more in depth show that he was significantly better than westbrook that year. :roll:

[aj1987]

yes, you said slightly better basing that on general stats. when my stats that are more in depth show that he was significantly better than westbrook that year. :roll:

Considering that Westbrook is a significantly better defender, they're almost equal, but I'd give Rose a slight edge over Westbrook.


...

[bdreason]

They're exciting players to watch.

[BruceLeeBowen]

Is Westbrook> Rose actually a popular opinion on here or am I just being paranoid?
uhhh. That's not an opinion, it's a fact.

Westbrook>Rose.

[secund2nun]

Because PGs and SGs are extremely overrated.

[TheReturn]

No, no, no. If you compare the defensive production of Rose with the Bulls vs. defensive production of the same line up with CJ Watson, there is an Andrea Bargnani-like difference and CJ Watson isnt even a great defender, hes at best slightly above average. Also, the Bulls in general are a team where it is hard to judge a players individual defense considering the semi-zone defense that they implement. If that stats say that hes a bad defender, then thats what we have to beleive considering that none of us are NBA scouts and have watched hours of footage, specifically focusing on Rose playing defense in order to form an opinion using the eye-test.
Let's see the stats then. This is all made up, or the sample size is ridiculously small.

[The JKidd Kid]

Let's see the stats then. This is all made up, or the sample size is ridiculously small.

A simple comparison of Watson and Rose on 82games.com during the 10-11 and 11-12 season will prove my point, I'm not going through the hassle of writing it all up. 2 seasons is by no means a "ridiculously small" sample size but I guess if the stats don't fit your narrative then something must be wrong.

[TheReturn]

A simple comparison of Watson and Rose on 82games.com during the 10-11 and 11-12 season will prove my point, I'm not going through the hassle of writing it all up. 2 seasons is by no means a "ridiculously small" sample size but I guess if the stats don't fit your narrative then something must be wrong.
It's not complicated. Of those two seasons, how many minutes did Watson play with the starters and how many did Rose? Against what kind of opponents? There's more variables then you make it seem.

[The JKidd Kid]

It's not complicated. Of those two seasons, how many minutes did Watson play with the starters and how many did Rose? Against what kind of opponents? There's more variables then you make it seem.

Yes, I admitted that its difficult to judge a players defense in general, especially on a team like the Bulls, and that these stats are the only sources that we as fans have to judge them by since we are not qualified to use the "eye test" like scouts. I'm just going to say this, are those variables a big enough factor to completely discredit what the stats are saying even though all the stats point towards Rose being a bad defender?

[chips93]

No, I'm pointing out that he has a negative affect on the Bulls defense, which means he is a bad defender. You can switch around the words all you want but the stats say he's a bad defender and there's nothing reputable saying that he is a good one.

if rose has a negative impact on the defense, it doesnt necessarily make him a bad defender, just a worse defender that his teammates.

if they are all great defenders, and rose is only an ok defender, then he will have a negative effect on the defense.

[SilkkTheShocker]

You can't win titles with Derek Rose or Deron Williams.

[raprap]

both are exciting to watch. and also give them a chance, both are young and have the potential to be atleast good defenders. I think rose can be great if he focused on it. he has the size and speed to be one.

[kshutts1]

You can't win titles with Derek Rose or Deron Williams.
You should be a GM. You know so much, and have an uncanny ability to predict the future. Your talents are being wasted in your armchair.

[DukeDelonte13]

You can't win titles with Derek Rose or Deron Williams.


I have visions of Rose repeatedly trying to go one on one against Lebron possession after possession and just getting shut down in the Chi-Mia series 2 seasons ago. That sh*t really hurt the bulls. Easy problem to fix though. Rose just has to play smarter.

I think the Nets collapse was more of a whole team issue. Deron is a fine PG but losing to the bulls like that was clearly an embarrassment and speaks a lot to Deron's seemingly nonexistent leadership qualities. Pierce and KG should and probably will step in as leaders of that squad.

I think you can win a title with both of those players though but Deron doesn't strike me as a guy who can lead a team to the promised land. Rose probably can eventually.

[SilkkTheShocker]

I have visions of Rose repeatedly trying to go one on one against Lebron possession after possession and just getting shut down in the Chi-Mia series 2 seasons ago. That sh*t really hurt the bulls. Easy problem to fix though. Rose just has to play smarter.

I think the Nets collapse was more of a whole team issue. Deron is a fine PG but losing to the bulls like that was clearly an embarrassment and speaks a lot to Deron's seemingly nonexistent leadership qualities. Pierce and KG should and probably will step in as leaders of that squad.

I think you can win a title with both of those players though but Deron doesn't strike me as a guy who can lead a team to the promised land. Rose probably can eventually.

Agreed with Rose. He has too low of an IQ to ever lead a team to championship. Not to mention I trust Shaq more at the line to hit clutch foul shots. Deron on the other hand just isn't a winner imo.

[The JKidd Kid]

if rose has a negative impact on the defense, it doesnt necessarily make him a bad defender, just a worse defender that his teammates.

if they are all great defenders, and rose is only an ok defender, then he will have a negative effect on the defense.

That would make sense if it wasn't for the fact that it was CJ Watson backing him up and not Tony Allen. CJ Watson is only an average defender, but the Bulls played much better defense when he was on the floor. CJ Watson is actually the perfect comparison because he also played behind another elite PG in Deron Williams and if you compare them in line ups that are identical except for the PG position, the line up with Deron had a better defensive rating than the one with CJ, even though Deron was playing without ankles for the majority of the season and his play suffered terribly.

[The JKidd Kid]

I have visions of Rose repeatedly trying to go one on one against Lebron possession after possession and just getting shut down in the Chi-Mia series 2 seasons ago. That sh*t really hurt the bulls. Easy problem to fix though. Rose just has to play smarter.

I think the Nets collapse was more of a whole team issue. Deron is a fine PG but losing to the bulls like that was clearly an embarrassment and speaks a lot to Deron's seemingly nonexistent leadership qualities. Pierce and KG should and probably will step in as leaders of that squad.

I think you can win a title with both of those players though but Deron doesn't strike me as a guy who can lead a team to the promised land. Rose probably can eventually.

People said the same thing about Dirk, Lebron and even Paul Peirce. I'm just saying that the whole "never lead a team to a title" thing has been proven wrong multiple times. Also, you're right about the Bulls series, it was in no way Derons fault and if we want to act like casual fans and even blame it on a single player then that player has to be Lopez for his softness in the paint.

[Marchesk]

Agreed with Rose. He has too low of an IQ to ever lead a team to championship. Not to mention I trust Shaq more at the line to hit clutch foul shots. Deron on the other hand just isn't a winner imo.

I'm getting excited about Durant leading OKC over CHI in the finals. That Westbrook / Rose matchup ought to be special, but Durant's going to add FMVP to his MVP. The Pacers/Bulls ECF is going to be a bloodbath.

Exciting times.

[SilkkTheShocker]

I'm getting excited about Durant leading OKC over CHI in the finals. That Westbrook / Rose matchup ought to be special, but Durant's going to add FMVP to his MVP. The Pacers/Bulls ECF is going to be a bloodbath.

Exciting times.

You're trying too hard.

[Pointguard]

I have visions of Rose repeatedly trying to go one on one against Lebron possession after possession and just getting shut down in the Chi-Mia series 2 seasons ago. That sh*t really hurt the bulls. Easy problem to fix though. Rose just has to play smarter.


Did you watch the series? What was the option? What hurt the Bulls was the lack of another player stepping up. And Boozer and Noah playing smarter. They were benched twice, in the fourth quarters, basically for stupid play. Rose was obviously told to carry the team by Thibes. The team couldn't break a trap!

[Pointguard]

No, no, no. If you compare the defensive production of Rose with the Bulls vs. defensive production of the same line up with CJ Watson, there is an Andrea Bargnani-like difference and CJ Watson isnt even a great defender, hes at best slightly above average. Also, the Bulls in general are a team where it is hard to judge a players individual defense considering the semi-zone defense that they implement. If that stats say that hes a bad defender, then thats what we have to beleive considering that none of us are NBA scouts and have watched hours of footage, specifically focusing on Rose playing defense in order to form an opinion using the eye-test.

What PG is put on Wade and shuts down a healthy Wade in the playoffs in the 4th quarter? Please name me one star PG or elite PG that scored big on Rose in '11? So there is no complete stat that says Rose makes the team worse defensively. Not ONE star came off and the elite averaged less than 40% from the field on him. The Bulls had one of the best perimeter defenses in the league. On the perimeter you don't get much help. Rose and Tony Parker were the only real penetrating guards that year - CP3 to a much lesser extent.

If you watched with your eyes, Deron Williams, Nash and Rondo were lost with Rose guarding them. And not one of the elite looked good. It was a complete, across the board hold down. You could put Wade in that mix as well. You can lie and say you didn't see it, you can lie and say stats prove otherwise, but its clear you can only lie because reality isn't going to help you prove your point.

[mugiwara]

What PG is put on Wade and shuts down a healthy Wade in the playoffs in the 4th quarter? Please name me one star PG or elite PG that scored big on Rose in '11? So there is no complete stat that says Rose makes the team worse defensively. Not ONE star came off and the elite averaged less than 40% from the field on him. The Bulls had one of the best perimeter defenses in the league. On the perimeter you don't get much help. Rose and Tony Parker were the only real penetrating guards that year - CP3 to a much lesser extent.

If you watched with your eyes, Deron Williams, Nash and Rondo were lost with Rose guarding them. And not one of the elite looked good. It was a complete, across the board hold down. You could put Wade in that mix as well. You can lie and say you didn't see it, you can lie and say stats prove otherwise, but its clear you can only lie because reality isn't going to help you prove your point.

Old man Jason Kidd was given wade some business in the finals, a couple years back. That however was astonishing because no ive not seen a non-defensive specialist do better. Old man Kidd :applause:

[SillyRabbit]

uhhh. That's not an opinion, it's a fact.

Westbrook>Rose.

This.

Westbrook last year was equal to, if not better than Rose during his MVP season.

Considering that Rose will not return to his MVP form (although he will still be good), Westbrook > Rose.

[Pointguard]

Old man Jason Kidd was given wade some business in the finals, a couple years back. That however was astonishing because no ive not seen a non-defensive specialist do better. Old man Kidd :applause:

Kidd did do work, no question there. I wouldn't call it a shut down, though. The point I was making is that no elite PG had a good game all year long against Rose. You can't be as thorough as Derrick Rose was defensively that year unless you were really good defensively, because its the level beyond good. Thorough is rarely achieved - even Lebron and DH did not thoroughly cover the elite at their position in 11.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Westbrook last year was equal to, if not better than Rose during his MVP season.
:biggums:

Your username makes so much sense now.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

The only difference between Rose and Westbrook is the market they play for. Actually, Westbrook hasn't had a major career injury, unlike Rose.

[The JKidd Kid]

What PG is put on Wade and shuts down a healthy Wade in the playoffs in the 4th quarter? Please name me one star PG or elite PG that scored big on Rose in '11? So there is no complete stat that says Rose makes the team worse defensively. Not ONE star came off and the elite averaged less than 40% from the field on him. The Bulls had one of the best perimeter defenses in the league. On the perimeter you don't get much help. Rose and Tony Parker were the only real penetrating guards that year - CP3 to a much lesser extent.

If you watched with your eyes, Deron Williams, Nash and Rondo were lost with Rose guarding them. And not one of the elite looked good. It was a complete, across the board hold down. You could put Wade in that mix as well. You can lie and say you didn't see it, you can lie and say stats prove otherwise, but its clear you can only lie because reality isn't going to help you prove your point.

No, it wasn't Rose at all. The Bulls defense is based on preventing penetration as a team and doubling/helping hard on pick n rolls. It had nothing to do with Rose. There is concrete evidence for Rose being a bad defender, the only thing backing up the idea that Rose is a good defender is ridiculous claims from rose fans pretending like the Bulls play completely one on one defense and Luol Deng/ Ronnie Brewer didnt guard the opposing teams Star PG most of the time.

[mr beast]

i think it'st he fact that Kyrie and Rose are the #1 options on their team , success/failure is solely on their shoulder

versus Westbrook is still consider a second option to Durant. so he gets criticized a lot for scoring more than facilitating the offense

[Go Getter]

The only difference between Rose and Westbrook is the market they play for. Actually, Westbrook hasn't had a major career injury, unlike Rose.
:no: :biggums:

[DukeDelonte13]

The only difference between Rose and Westbrook is the market they play for. Actually, Westbrook hasn't had a major career injury, unlike Rose.


Yes he has.

[The JKidd Kid]

i think it'st he fact that Kyrie and Rose are the #1 options on their team , success/failure is solely on their shoulder

versus Westbrook is still consider a second option to Durant. so he gets criticized a lot for scoring more than facilitating the offense

It's because they're flashy young players and the media is obsessed with finding the next superstar, so they become incredibly marketable, which leads to them being in commercials, which leads to hype, which leads to being overrated. Rose has at least deserved some of the hype he's gotten, Kyrie has literally done nothing except take a shit ton of shots on a bottom 5 team.

[Uncle Drew]

It's because they're flashy young players and the media is obsessed with finding the next superstar, so they become incredibly marketable, which leads to them being in commercials, which leads to hype, which leads to being overrated. Rose has at least deserved some of the hype he's gotten, Kyrie has literally done nothing except take a shit ton of shots on a bottom 5 team.
> Deron

[Dengness9]

No, no, no. If you compare the defensive production of Rose with the Bulls vs. defensive production of the same line up with CJ Watson, there is an Andrea Bargnani-like difference and CJ Watson isnt even a great defender, hes at best slightly above average. Also, the Bulls in general are a team where it is hard to judge a players individual defense considering the semi-zone defense that they implement. If that stats say that hes a bad defender, then thats what we have to beleive considering that none of us are NBA scouts and have watched hours of footage, specifically focusing on Rose playing defense in order to form an opinion using the eye-test.

Show me the stat, and also I have never missed a Rose Bulls game in his career and have watched and re-watched hours of game tape and its ridiculous that you are trying to sway people to think Derrick Rose's defense is "Andrea Bargnani like" in anyway shows you need to watch more footage and game tape.

Rarely have i seen any PG post a monster game on Rose. And Rose has continuously shit on CP3, Deron, Rondo, in head to head match ups.

You say Derrick is a bad defender but can you really give me an example to prove he hurts the team defensively?

[Pointguard]

No, it wasn't Rose at all. The Bulls defense is based on preventing penetration as a team and doubling/helping hard on pick n rolls. It had nothing to do with Rose. There is concrete evidence for Rose being a bad defender, the only thing backing up the idea that Rose is a good defender is ridiculous claims from rose fans pretending like the Bulls play completely one on one defense and Luol Deng/ Ronnie Brewer didnt guard the opposing teams Star PG most of the time.
LoL you know full well Rose always guards the point guards. And in the playoffs Rose took the Wade assignment while Brewer guarded the point guard in key parts of the game. That tells you who the top guard defender on the team is.

I already told you the league had very few penetrators at point guard so to a have defensive scheme to help stop something that doesn't exist is a bit crazy for a great defensive team. Now how is it that teams didn't run on Chicago or hit three pointers on them. You can not receive help in those areas. To run a pick n roll defense you need two smart defenders who commit at the right time.

Rose was also the only player on his team ranked in a defensive stat at his position (first in blocks and third in rebounds). He is one of the strongest point guards and is probably the quickest and knows how to bother the best with these qualities. He is way too thorough to not be considered very good.

[The JKidd Kid]

Show me the stat, and also I have never missed a Rose Bulls game in his career and have watched and re-watched hours of game tape and its ridiculous that you are trying to sway people to think Derrick Rose's defense is "Andrea Bargnani like" in anyway shows you need to watch more footage and game tape.

Rarely have i seen any PG post a monster game on Rose. And Rose has continuously shit on CP3, Deron, Rondo, in head to head match ups.

You say Derrick is a bad defender but can you really give me an example to prove he hurts the team defensively?

Like I said to in a previous post, a simple comparison on 82games.com of on/off stats and a comparison of CJ Watson will show that he has a negative effect on his teams defense. And dont come around claiming that Watson is an elite defender because a further comparison of him and Deron Williams will show that they had an equal effect on the Nets defense even though Deron was playing the vast majority of the 2012-13 season with bone spurs in his ankles. Also, unless you're an NBA scout you're opinion on the "game-tape" (lmao) that you've "watched" means jack shit.

[Pointguard]

This.

Westbrook last year was equal to, if not better than Rose during his MVP season.

Considering that Rose will not return to his MVP form (although he will still be good), Westbrook > Rose.
I think he bombed. He had the perfect opportunity to fill the void Rose left instead he fell off some. Wasn't mentioned on the same breath as Cp3 and Kyrie surpassed him in the excitement category. Both he and CP3 had great underachieving teams and helped Lebron claim MVP on November.

[imdaman99]

I think he bombed. He had the perfect opportunity to fill the void Rose left instead he fell off some. Wasn't mentioned on the same breath as Cp3 and Kyrie surpassed him in the excitement category. Both he and CP3 had great underachieving teams and helped Lebron claim MVP on November.
UMMM what are you talking about? Underachieving teams? I suppose its Westbrook's fault that some GOON came out and tried to level the playing field and injure him. At least he wasn't eating skittles on the sidelines when he was cleared to come back :facepalm

Lets face it, most of the hype out of Rose is because he plays on a popular team in a huge market. OKC is the smallest market possible.

[Pointguard]

Like I said to in a previous post, a simple comparison on 82games.com of on/off stats and a comparison of CJ Watson will show that he has a negative effect on his teams defense. And dont come around claiming that Watson is an elite defender because a further comparison of him and Deron Williams will show that they had an equal effect on the Nets defense even though Deron was playing the vast majority of the 2012-13 season with bone spurs in his ankles. Also, unless you're an NBA scout you're opinion on the "game-tape" (lmao) that you've "watched" means jack shit.

CJ Watson is rarely guarding a first stringer or Allstar HOFamer than a minute a game. You are embarrassing yourself by comparing HOF guards with journey men point guards. First unit teams are far better than second unit teams. In fact your second unit team can be great defensively and your team could still be a last place defensively. It way too insignificant to bring up.

[The JKidd Kid]

CJ Watson is rarely guarding a first stringer or Allstar HOFamer than a minute a game. You are embarrassing yourself by comparing HOF guards with journey men point guards. First unit teams are far better than second unit teams. In fact your second unit team can be great defensively and your team could still be a last place defensively. It way too insignificant to bring up.

No no no no no, it's like you refuse to actually look at logic. If you compare Rose and Watson in the exact same lineup except for the PG position, you will see that there is a large drop off in defensive rating of the current unit on the floor by simply replacing Watson with Rose. Of course there are other factors involved but you're obviously biased opinion based on your belief that you are qualified to judge a players defense just by "watching" so called "game tape" isn't enough to discredit what the stats are saying.

[Pointguard]

UMMM what are you talking about? Underachieving teams? I suppose its Westbrook's fault that some GOON came out and tried to level the playing field and injure him. At least he wasn't eating skittles on the sidelines when he was cleared to come back :facepalm

Lets face it, most of the hype out of Rose is because he plays on a popular team in a huge market. OKC is the smallest market possible.
I'm thinking OKC should have had the best record in the league before Westbrook gets hurt? They have three superb defenders, the best Scorer probably ever, a very good shpoter before we get to Westbrook. They needed somebody to fill in for the beard but it didn't happen. Westbrook had the opportunity. Rose took the opportunity. In life you always separate these two types of people. With that said he"s a heck of a player and I hope he gets more chances to shine.

[Pointguard]

No no no no no, it's like you refuse to actually look at logic. If you compare Rose and Watson in the exact same lineup except for the PG position, you will see that there is a large drop off in defensive rating of the current unit on the floor by simply replacing Watson with Rose. Of course there are other factors involved but you're obviously biased opinion based on your belief that you are qualified to judge a players defense just by "watching" so called "game tape" isn't enough to discredit what the stats are saying.
You have to have to factor in that Rose played a lot of minutes that year and if he was out you are talking about a blowout situation??? And you have to understand that when Rose is out the team doesn't have its creative scoring force and has to up their defense to outscore their opponent. So Thibes definitely sends out instructions to defend harder. But it doesn't matter because the minuscule amount of CJ minutes with starters is just too small to mean anything of significance in any way.

[The JKidd Kid]

You have to have to factor in that Rose played a lot of minutes that year and if he was out you are talking about a blowout situation??? And you have to understand that when Rose is out the team doesn't have its creative scoring force and has to up their defense to outscore their opponent. So Thibes definitely sends out instructions to defend harder. But it doesn't matter because the minuscule amount of CJ minutes with starters is just too small to mean anything of significance in any way.

Again, you make these claims that are ridiculous and have absolutely no source. Also, it doesn't have to be the starters, in can be any lineup. In fact the lineup that featured them both the most contained Gibson and Brewer. Also, we know how Thibs treats his players in blow out situations because that is how Rose got injured in the first place, so blow outs are a non-factor. Like I said there are other factors involved, they just arnt big enough for me to completely discredit the stats and go with the illogical answer that he is a good defender.

[chips93]

That would make sense if it wasn't for the fact that it was CJ Watson backing him up and not Tony Allen. CJ Watson is only an average defender, but the Bulls played much better defense when he was on the floor. CJ Watson is actually the perfect comparison because he also played behind another elite PG in Deron Williams and if you compare them in line ups that are identical except for the PG position, the line up with Deron had a better defensive rating than the one with CJ, even though Deron was playing without ankles for the majority of the season and his play suffered terribly.

which lineups can you switch deron out, and replace him with cj?

http://www.82games.com/1213/1213BKN2.HTM

they play with different groups, cj mostly with the bench.

[The JKidd Kid]

which lineups can you switch deron out, and replace him with cj?

http://www.82games.com/1213/1213BKN2.HTM

they play with different groups, cj mostly with the bench.

If you look at each players specific page you'll see more options for a total of close to 700 minutes of sample-size for Williams and close to 200 minutes of sample size for Watson which is a big enough sample-size to actually come to a conclusion. Also, keep in mind that for the majority of those minutes, Williams was playing with bone spurs so his impact, especially on the defensive end, was weakened, however his defensive impact was still larger than Watsons.

[chips93]

If you look at each players specific page you'll see more options for a total of close to 700 minutes of sample-size for Williams and close to 200 minutes of sample size for Watson which is a big enough sample-size to actually come to a conclusion. Also, keep in mind that for the majority of those minutes, Williams was playing with bone spurs so his impact, especially on the defensive end, was weakened, however his defensive impact was still larger than Watsons.

i looked back at those stats for rose, and tbh, you have a pretty solid case on that one, but this one, with regards to williams, is very tenuous.

the only foursome, as far as i can see, that both cj and d-will, played extensively with, are Johnson-Wallace-Evans-Lopez. and when watson plays with those 4, their defensive rating is 0.89 points/100 possessions, while derons defensive rating with that group is 1.06 points/100 possesions, which is a pretty huge drop off.

what lineups are you looking at?

[Pointguard]

Again, you make these claims that are ridiculous and have absolutely no source. Also, it doesn't have to be the starters, in can be any lineup. In fact the lineup that featured them both the most contained Gibson and Brewer. Also, we know how Thibs treats his players in blow out situations because that is how Rose got injured in the first place, so blow outs are a non-factor. Like I said there are other factors involved, they just arnt big enough for me to completely discredit the stats and go with the illogical answer that he is a good defender.

Wow, you just don't get it? http://www.82games.com/1011/1011CHI2.HTM
That is what you are referencing correct???

The majority of the big time minutes Rose's teams plus minus is about 30 or 40 points higher than Watson's biggest bench minutes right??? And you are not attributing anything to style or approach but think there is a whole lot to the defensive measure of 13 minutes a game against other bench players??? There is a very big problem there and it's in your head.

You waaaaay over using a useless stat. You are here trying to say Rose holding down HOFamer's Nash, Rondo and CP3 for 36 minutes a game is inferior to CJ Watkins holding down bench scrubs for 13 minutes a game. And you think you got it down pack. You have no idea whatsoever of context or impact. Its like gaming to stop Selfolosha for 13 minutes instead of focusing on Durant for 36 minutes. I can't believe you got another poster agreeing with you.

Stay away from things you don't understand. Plus/Minus is a stat that can only work in a context. It can not create a context like other stats.

As for my claims please defy one of them - the source will be anybody who watched the games, common sense and basketball reference.

I said:
You have to have to factor in that Rose played a lot of minutes 3026 to CJ's 1091. that year and if he was out you are talking about a blowout situation???

And you have to understand that when Rose is out the team doesn't have its creative scoring force and has to up their defense to outscore their opponent. So Thibes definitely sends out instructions to defend harder.
This is ultra common sense. They are in for 13 minutes to play hard and defend.

But it doesn't matter because the minuscule amount of CJ minutes with starters is just too small to mean anything of significance in any way. Your reference doesn't even list CJ minutes with starters but you lied and said it did. Your quote:
No, no, no. If you compare the defensive production of Rose with the Bulls vs. defensive production of the same line up with CJ Watson, there is an Andrea Bargnani-like difference and CJ Watson isnt even a great defender, hes at best slightly above average.

In fact it never has CJ in with more than two of the regular starters.