Is Wilt Chamberlain a top 10 player of all-time?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Michael Jordan
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Larry Bird
Shaquille O'Neal
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

All 10 players listed above have more or at least equal amount of rings, finals mvps, other accolades, and are considered superior playoff performers. Does Wilt have a case over one of these players?

[Electric Slide]

He is pretty clearly better than Kobe, not better than KG though.

The top 10 is something like this

mj
russell
kareem
magic
bird
lebron
duncan
hakeem
shaq
kg

[Jameerthefear]

good thread with a lot of information and valuable facts. will bookmark and read again.
Jameer approves!
http://i.imgur.com/QdvmVZ9.gif

[Gwin631]

Michael Jordan
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Larry Bird
Shaquille O'Neal
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

All 10 players listed above have more or at least equal amount of rings, finals mvps, other accolades, and are considered superior playoff performers. Does Wilt have a case over one of these players?
The last five on your list is below wilt and Shaquille falls out of the top 10.

[Gwin631]

He is pretty clearly better than Kobe, not better than KG though.

The top 10 is something like this

mj
russell
kareem
magic
bird
lebron
duncan
hakeem
shaq
kg
If you are saying that Kg is better than Kobe, you're wrong
Kobe maybe top 5 of all time, KG isn't even top 20.

[Electric Slide]

If you are saying that Kg is better than Kobe, you're wrong
Kobe maybe top 5 of all time, KG isn't even top 20.
Kobe is lucky to be top 10.

[SHAQisGOAT]

If you consider everything, he clearly is.

MJ
Kareem
Russell
Bird
Magic
Shaq
Wilt
Hakeem
Duncan
Lebron

Got him at 7th right now but he can definitely be argued above.

[Gwin631]

Kobe is lucky to be top 10.

How, is this out of spite or are you going to back up this claim. I can tell you this
Kobe Bryant
5x Champion
2x finals MVP
1x MVP
More all nba 1st teams and much more productive in his latter years of his career.

The only thing KG has on Kobe is DPOY, KG for too long shot too many jumpers and did not take over in the post like he could have.

[Gwin631]

If you consider everything, he clearly is.

MJ
Kareem
Russell
Bird
Magic
Shaq
Wilt
Hakeem
Duncan
Lebron

Got him at 7th right now but he can definitely be argued above.
Shaquille is way too high, he was defeated 1 on 1 against Hakeem, did not have a long career and benefitted from the best SGs since Jordan.

[Electric Slide]

How, is this out of spite or are you going to back up this claim. I can tell you this
Kobe Bryant
5x Champion
2x finals MVP
1x MVP
More all nba 1st teams and much more productive in his latter years of his career.

The only thing KG has on Kobe is DPOY, KG for too long shot too many jumpers and did not take over in the post like he could have.
lol at those arguments. 5 championships and 2 finals MVPs were based on luck and playing on great teams. Kobe is the luckiest superstar of all-time, KG is one of the unluckiest.

Kobe only deserved 1 Finals MVP too since he jacked that shit from Pau Gasol in 2010.

KG was better at his peak and had the same longevity. KG was better.

[Jameerthefear]

gwin don't argue with electric slide. he's a troll/******.

[aj1987]

Shaquille is way too high, he was defeated 1 on 1 against Hakeem, did not have a long career and benefitted from the best SGs since Jordan.
:roll: You think Kobe is a top 5 candidate, but not Shaq?

Career 24/11 on 58%
4x NBA Champion
3x Finals MVP (35/15 over the 3 Finals)
1x MVP

Considered by many to be the most dominant player ever.

BTW, Shaq held his own against Hakeem. 28/12/6/3 on 60%.

EDIT: Shaq played for 19 years.

Top 10:

MJ
KAJ
Magic
Russell
Shaq
Wilt
Bird
Duncan
Kobe
Hakeem

[NumberSix]

good thread with a lot of information and valuable facts. will bookmark and read again.
Jameer approves!
http://i.imgur.com/QdvmVZ9.gif
Anime fan = dat pedo life.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Shaquille is way too high, he was defeated 1 on 1 against Hakeem, did not have a long career and benefitted from the best SGs since Jordan.
Are you like a Kobe stan's alt posing as a Heat fan?

[zoom17]

Anime fan = dat pedo life.

:oldlol:

[Sarcastic]

He's top 3.

[Deuce Bigalow]

He's top 3.
http://i.imgur.com/2qsTY.gif

[SHAQisGOAT]

Shaquille is way too high, he was defeated 1 on 1 against Hakeem, did not have a long career and benefitted from the best SGs since Jordan.

Way too high? Not at all, not that I can't see him lower but just a bit, can also see him higher. 1 MVP, 3 FMVP, 4 rings, like 18 years career, 14 all-nba teams, 3 all-defensive teams, over 10 prime years, top 5 peaks, one of the most dominant ever...

[jongib369]

Wilt has more of a case for top 5 than Kobe does top 10....


Players in your top 10 that was THE leader of a team capable of beating the 60s celtics or a team equally as stacked MAYBE 1 or 2 times

Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Larry Bird
Shaquille O'Neal (http://www.kobe-bryant-pictures.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Shaq-Holding-Kobe.jpg)

[jongib369]

http://i.imgur.com/2qsTY.gif

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5e04jiGkq1qh9y8lo1_500.png

[Gwin631]

:roll: You think Kobe is a top 5 candidate, but not Shaq?

Career 24/11 on 58%
4x NBA Champion
3x Finals MVP (35/15 over the 3 Finals)
1x MVP

Considered by many to be the most dominant player ever.

BTW, Shaq held his own against Hakeem. 28/12/6/3 on 60%.

EDIT: Shaq played for 19 years.

Top 10:

MJ
KAJ
Magic
Russell
Shaq
Wilt
Bird
Duncan
Kobe
Hakeem
Shaq over Duncan? While Shaquille is with Charles Barkley on TNT, Duncan is STILL making all NBA first team.
Shaq over Bird? Larry Legend shoot circles around Shaquille and yet pulled about 10 rebounds in his career, he had a short career but like shaq, was instrumental in 3 rings and it wasn't against Jason Kidd or Reggie miller.
Shaq over Wilt? any historian will tell you how much more dominant Wilt was in his era than Shaq is in his era.
Hakeem has multiple moves in his arsenal offensively than Shaq did in his and was an elite defender.
And Kobe was instrumental in the success of Shaq, he helped keep defenders honest while Shaq Dominated

Shaq is in my top 12 but he was not as dominant as he should have been , played 75 % of the season 11 of his 19 seasons and was on the decline after the 03-04 season.
There is a reason why he played on 6 teams in his career, no other player has played on more than three team on your list.
My top 12
MJ
Kareem
Magic
Russell
Bird
Wilt
Oscar
Duncan
Kobe
Hakeem
Shaq
LeBron

[Gwin631]

Way too high? Not at all, not that I can't see him lower but just a bit, can also see him higher. 1 MVP, 3 FMVP, 4 rings, like 18 years career, 14 all-nba teams, 3 all-defensive teams, over 10 prime years, top 5 peaks, one of the most dominant ever...
I personally think he is 11th, I don't think he lived up to his potential and there are too many great players you can put ahead of him, maybe he can be as high as 9th but he doesnt go over MJ Kareem Bird Magic Russell Oscar Duncan or Wilt.

[Gwin631]

Are you like a Kobe stan's alt posing as a Heat fan?
Nope, just objective.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Shaq over Duncan? While Shaquille is with Charles Barkley on TNT, Duncan is STILL making all NBA first team.
Shaq over Bird? Larry Legend shoot circles around Shaquille and yet pulled about 10 rebounds in his career, he had a short career but like shaq, was instrumental in 3 rings and it wasn't against Jason Kidd or Reggie miller.
Shaq over Wilt? any historian will tell you how much more dominant Wilt was in his era than Shaq is in his era.
Hakeem has multiple moves in his arsenal offensively than Shaq did in his and was an elite defender.
And Kobe was instrumental in the success of Shaq, he helped keep defenders honest while Shaq Dominated

Shaq is in my top 12 but he was not as dominant as he should have been , played 75 % of the season 11 of his 19 seasons and was on the decline after the 03-04 season.
There is a reason why he played on 6 teams in his career, no other player has played on more than three team on your list.
My top 12
MJ
Kareem
Magic
Russell
Bird
Wilt
Oscar
Duncan
Kobe
Hakeem
Shaq
LeBron
Shaq is 41, who cares if he's not making an all-nba team? He made 8 all-nba first teams in his prime as a center, while having to battle Hakeem and Robinson in their primes for the sole all-nba first team center spot in the 90's. If Duncan was listed as a center in Shaq's prime, you think he'll be making first teams over Shaq? How many 30+ ppg playoff runs did Duncan have? How about adding 15 rpg along with 30 ppg? How many times has Duncan repeated? Duncan struggled to score 25. Shaq would get 40 in the Finals if he wanted in his prime.

How is Wilt in the top 10 and Shaq isnt? Shaq has 4 titles to Wilt's 2. Shaq was by far the superior player in the playoffs and finals over Wilt and it isnt even close in that department.

[Greg Oden 50]

Kobe is lucky to be top 10.

Kg is a proven loser...........never led his team to the Finals,I dun know how is he bette than Wilt & KOBE:lol

[K]

Wilt is the GOAT.

[Deuce Bigalow]

[QUOTE=K

[K]

Michael Jordan
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Larry Bird
Shaquille O'Neal
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

All 10 players listed above have more or at least equal amount of rings, finals mvps, other accolades, and are considered superior playoff performers. Does Wilt have a case over one of these players?

http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/michael-jordan-laughing.gif

[Deuce Bigalow]

[QUOTE=K

[K]

Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Antarctica

http://t.qkme.me/3u21c1.jpg

I'm sorry, is something as meaningless as a join date and a random location something that gives you an upper hand and is a thing of pride? That's some low standards, dude. :wtf:

[Eric Cartman]

Top 6-7 seems about right.

Above him: Jordan, Kareem, Russell, Magic, Bird

[Gwin631]

Shaq is 41, who cares if he's not making an all-nba team? He made 8 all-nba first teams in his prime as a center, while having to battle Hakeem and Robinson in their primes for the sole all-nba first team center spot in the 90's. If Duncan was listed as a center in Shaq's prime, you think he'll be making first teams over Shaq? How many 30+ ppg playoff runs did Duncan have? How about adding 15 rpg along with 30 ppg? How many times has Duncan repeated? Duncan struggled to score 25. Shaq would get 40 in the Finals if he wanted in his prime.

How is Wilt in the top 10 and Shaq isnt? Shaq has 4 titles to Wilt's 2. Shaq was by far the superior player in the playoffs and finals over Wilt and it isnt even close in that department.
Arguing Duncan over Shaq is easy, Duncan might not have had the outburst tha Shaq had, with the current 13+ years of 50 consecutive wins, in the ever tough Western Conference means he is the model of consistency. He may not have repeated, but he's never had an All NBA first team star to play with at their prime.
Oh and in Shaqs "Dominance" he has one MVP to show for it, while AI had one, KG had one and The underrated Timmy had 2 MVPs. Btw, though Shaq has more head to head regular season wins 18-14, they are tied in the playoffs and Duncan (25.6PPG, 13REB, 3.8AST, .9 STLs, and 2.4 BLK) outshines Shaqs (22.4 , 12.4, 2.2, 0.7 and 2.8 respectively.
All this and I didn't touch on free throws yet. I'll talk about wilt tomorrow, too sleepy.

[aj1987]

Shaq over Duncan? While Shaquille is with Charles Barkley on TNT, Duncan is STILL making all NBA first team.
Shaq started playing in '92 and Duncan started playing in '97. Are you actually being serious with this post?


Shaq over Bird? Larry Legend shoot circles around Shaquille and yet pulled about 10 rebounds in his career, he had a short career but like shaq, was instrumental in 3 rings and it wasn't against Jason Kidd or Reggie miller.
Do you not remember the Lakers beating the Spurs, Kings and Trailblazers?


Shaq over Wilt? any historian will tell you how much more dominant Wilt was in his era than Shaq is in his era.
Who give a shit? That's just an opinion and IMO, Shaq would destroy Wilt. Shaq played against better competition as well.


Hakeem has multiple moves in his arsenal offensively than Shaq did in his and was an elite defender.
And Kobe was instrumental in the success of Shaq, he helped keep defenders honest while Shaq Dominated
Kobe played with Shaq against Hakeem? Good to know.

Even with his "limited" skill set, a 3rd year Shaq averaged 28/12/6/3 on 60% against the "elite defender", Hakeem.


Shaq is in my top 12 but he was not as dominant as he should have been , played 75 % of the season 11 of his 19 seasons and was on the decline after the 03-04 season.
Doesn't that work against Bird and Duncan as well? Shaq averaged 28/12/3 on 58% over his first 11 year. Shaq even has better overall career averages than Duncan, and he player 3 years more than him.

4x Champion
3x FMVP
1x MVP
Career average of 24/11/3/2 on 58% (over 19 seasons, btw).

Shaq > Bird, Duncan, Hakeem, Wilt and Kobe.

[aj1987]

Arguing Duncan over Shaq is easy, Duncan might not have had the outburst tha Shaq had, with the current 13+ years of 50 consecutive wins, in the ever tough Western Conference means he is the model of consistency. He may not have repeated, but he's never had an All NBA first team star to play with at their prime.
Duncan had David Robinson, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker and Bruce Bowen. Lets not act like Duncan did everything by himself.


Oh and in Shaqs "Dominance" he has one MVP to show for it, while AI had one, KG had one and The underrated Timmy had 2 MVPs.
Lebron has 4 MVP's. I guess Lebron >>> Kobe, Timmy, Hakeem, Bird, and Magic.


Btw, though Shaq has more head to head regular season wins 18-14, they are tied in the playoffs and Duncan (25.6PPG, 13REB, 3.8AST, .9 STLs, and 2.4 BLK) outshines Shaqs (22.4 , 12.8, 2.2, 0.7 and 2.8 respectively.
All this and I didn't touch on free throws yet. I'll talk about wilt tomorrow, too sleepy.
Shaq played 5 games when he was in Phoenix. A 36 year old Shaq against a 31 year old Duncan. Also, Shaq was more efficient than Duncan. I like how you left that part out.


EDIT: The most important stat of all, Shaq's teams beat Duncan's 3-2 in the playoffs.

[TheCorporation]

The last five on your list is below wilt and Shaquille falls out of the top 10.

Wilt over Shaq?

:biggums:

[bdreason]

I have Wilt a #4 all-time, but the more I learn about him, the more I actually consider moving him down a couple notches.

[Greg Oden 50]

Wilt over Shaq?

:biggums:

shaq dominant when dream,ewing,robonson getting old.........weak competition against 2nd tier rik simits,mutombo :lol

[Greg Oden 50]

http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/michael-jordan-laughing.gif

wilt >>>>>>>>>>> kobe

[Greg Oden 50]

kobe is top 10 at best :banana:

[Marchesk]

What puts Wilt in the top 5 is that he did things nobody has even done. It's not just about rewriting the record book, which still has his name all over it. It's understood that pace, rules and strategies change over time.

It's his dominance in several categories which nobody in history has replicated. For all the talk of how versatile Oscar, Magic and Lebron are, nobody has done the following but Wilt:

Lead the league in scoring (7 times), rebounding (11 times), assists (1 time), FG% (9 times). And if they had kept blocks, we all know Wilt would have led the league in that category multiple times also. Wilt is the only center in history to lead the league in assists. It would be akin to CP3 leading the league in rebounding.

Wilt is the only player to shoot 72.7 FG% for a season.

You can cite Shaq for FG%, but how many times did he lead the league in rebounding or scoring?

You can cite Jordan for scoring and steals, Magic for assists, Magic, Oscar and Lebron for tripple doubles, but again they never led the league in more than two categories.

As for all-time, Wilt is 5th in scoring, second in career average to MJ, and 1st in rebounding. He would be 1 or 2 in blocks, if that had been kept.

Can you imagine a big today leading the league in scoring, rebounding, FG% and shot blocking? You think Lebron is getting an MVP over that?

Statistically, there has never been anyone as dominant as Wilt. It's not even close, and that's not trolling. It's factual.

[TheCorporation]

shaq dominant when dream,ewing,robonson getting old.........weak competition against 2nd tier rik simits,mutombo :lol

And how did Mr. 2-Ring choker do against his "powerful" 6'8 white guy competition???

[TheCorporation]

What puts Wilt in the top 5 is that he did things nobody has even done. It's not just about rewriting the record book, which still has his name all over it. It's understood that pace, rules and strategies change over time.

It's his dominance in several categories which nobody in history has replicated. For all the talk of how versatile Oscar, Magic and Lebron are, nobody has done the following but Wilt:

Lead the league in scoring (8 times), rebounding (11 times), assists (1 time), FG% (9 times). And if they had kept blocks, we all know Wilt would have led the league in that category multiple times also.

You can cite Shaq for FG%, but how many times did he lead the league in rebounding or scoring?

You can cite Jordan for scoring and steals, Magic for assists, Magic, Oscar and Lebron for tripple doubles, but again they never led the league in more than two categories.

And they also never got a quad-double, which Wilt did, unofficially.

Statistically, there has never been anyone as dominant as Wilt. It's not even close, and that's not trolling. It's factual.

Wilt's competition:

http://nbcprobasketballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/wilt-chamberlain-100-point-game-thumb-400xauto-31440.jpg?w=320

[Marchesk]

Wilt's competition:

http://nbcprobasketballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/wilt-chamberlain-100-point-game-thumb-400xauto-31440.jpg

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/history/legends/nate-thurmond/thurmond-top.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/45/120977164_8804db5729.jpg

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/02/20/sports/20backtalk583.jpg

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/02/19/sports/basketball/otd_wilt/otd_wilt-blogSpan.jpg

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/961384/Bob_Lanier_72_home_medium.jpg

[Psileas]

Is Wilt Chamberlain a top 1 player of all-time?

He's definitely up there.

[Greg Oden 50]

And how did Mr. 2-Ring choker do against his "powerful" 6'8 white guy competition???

how about karrem abdul jabbar,old wilt can still compete with young kareem :banana: :banana:

[LAZERUSS]

Michael Jordan
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Larry Bird
Shaquille O'Neal
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

All 10 players listed above have more or at least equal amount of rings, finals mvps, other accolades, and are considered superior playoff performers. Does Wilt have a case over one of these players?

Let's address these one-by-one shall we...

Let's begin with your boy Kobe...

How about his play in THE biggest stage in the NBA...the Finals...

Here are his FG%'s and eFG%'s in his seven NBA Finals..

99-00 .367 FG% and a .378 eFG%
00-01 .415 FG% and a .429 eFG%
01-02 .514 FG% and a .558 eFG%
03-04 .381 FG% and a .398 eFG%
07-08 .405 FG% and a .450 eFG%
08-09 .430 FG% and a .474 eFG%
09-10 .405 FG% and a .454 eFG%


And this one is really cool...here are Kobe's LAST playoff games in each of his seasons...

96-97 11 points on 4-14 shooting in an OT defeat (LA loses series 4-1)

97-98 6 points in game four of a sweeping loss.

98-99 16 points on 7-16 shooting in game four of yet another sweeping loss.

99-00 8-27 shooting in game six of the Finals. Shaq puts in 41 on 19-32 shooting to clinch the title.

00-01 7-18 shooting. Shaq wins his second straight FMVP with 29 points.

01-02 7-16 shooting. Shaq wins his third straight MVP with 34 points.

02-03 9-19 shooting in a 110-82 series clinching blowout loss.

03-04 7-21 shooting in a 100-87 (and it was 82-59 going into the 4th quarter) series clinching loss. His heavily favored Lakers are blown out 4-1, in a Finals in which he shoots .381 from the field.

04-05 34-48 team doesn't make playoffs.

05-06 24 points on 8-16 shooting in game seven, in a 121-90 blowout loss, in a series in which his team blows a 3-1 series
lead. 24 points in a critcal game seven, in a season in which he averaged 35.4 ppg.

06-07 13-33 shooting in game five of a 4-1 series loss.

07-08 7-22 shooting in a 131-92 series clinching loss.

08-09 10-23 shooting in a title clinching win.

09-10 6-24 shooting in a game seven win.

10-11 7-18 shooting in a game four 122-86 loss, in his third playoff series sweeping loss.

11-12 42 points, but in yet another big loss, 106-90, in a series in which his lakers are ripped 4-1.

12-13 Did not play in post-season.


Now, you tell me about Kobe's "superior" play in his post-season career. he Lakers won three titkes despite his horrible play in two of them, when it was SHAQ carrying them . KOBE was the reason that LA wa blown out in the '04 Finals. He was simply AWFUL in '08. And his teammates had to overcome his horrible shooting in game seven of the '10 Finals.

[HomieWeMajor]

Let's address these one-by-one shall we...

Let's begin with your boy Kobe...

How about his play in THE biggest stage in the NBA...the Finals...

Here are his FG%'s and eFG%'s in his seven NBA Finals..

99-00 .367 FG% and a .378 eFG%
00-01 .415 FG% and a .429 eFG%
01-02 .514 FG% and a .558 eFG%
03-04 .381 FG% and a .398 eFG%
07-08 .405 FG% and a .450 eFG%
08-09 .430 FG% and a .474 eFG%
09-10 .405 FG% and a .454 eFG%


And this one is really cool...here are Kobe's LAST playoff games in each of his seasons...

96-97 11 points on 4-14 shooting in an OT defeat (LA loses series 4-1)

97-98 6 points in game four of a sweeping loss.

98-99 16 points on 7-16 shooting in game four of yet another sweeping loss.

99-00 8-27 shooting in game six of the Finals. Shaq puts in 41 on 19-32 shooting to clinch the title.

00-01 7-18 shooting. Shaq wins his second straight FMVP with 29 points.

01-02 7-16 shooting. Shaq wins his third straight MVP with 34 points.

02-03 9-19 shooting in a 110-82 series clinching blowout loss.

03-04 7-21 shooting in a 100-87 (and it was 82-59 going into the 4th quarter) series clinching loss. His heavily favored Lakers are blown out 4-1, in a Finals in which he shoots .381 from the field.

04-05 34-48 team doesn't make playoffs.

05-06 24 points on 8-16 shooting in game seven, in a 121-90 blowout loss, in a series in which his team blows a 3-1 series
lead. 24 points in a critcal game seven, in a season in which he averaged 35.4 ppg.

06-07 13-33 shooting in game five of a 4-1 series loss.

07-08 7-22 shooting in a 131-92 series clinching loss.

08-09 10-23 shooting in a title clinching win.

09-10 6-24 shooting in a game seven win.

10-11 7-18 shooting in a game four 122-86 loss, in his third playoff series sweeping loss.

11-12 42 points, but in yet another big loss, 106-90, in a series in which his lakers are ripped 4-1.

12-13 Did not play in post-season.


Now, you tell me about Kobe's "superior" play in his post-season career. he Lakers won three titkes despite his horrible play in two of them, when it was SHAQ carrying them . KOBE was the reason that LA wa blown out in the '04 Finals. He was simply AWFUL in '08. And his teammates had to overcome his horrible shooting in game seven of the '10 Finals.
I don't even fuxx with Wilt but I'm having a minutes silence for Kobe's top 10 claim after this post

[LAZERUSS]

The "clutch" Bird, who played with HOF-laden rosters his entire career, and won THREE rings?

Thanks to Colts18 for much of this research...


Just look at Bird's long list of playoff failures while Dirk improves his play in the postseason:

1980- Averaged a .511 TS% in the postseason. In game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had a 18.3 PER in the postseason

1981- Has a .532 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .419 shooting and .460 TS%.

1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .474 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.

1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .478 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.

1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .607 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoff of his career. Celtics win the title over the Lakers.

1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .536 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular season average. His Finals TS% is just .527. Not only that, but Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.

1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .615 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.

1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.375) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .377 shooting and .492 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.

1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .538 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.

1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.

1990- Bird shoots .539 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.

1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .490 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .446 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.

1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular season average. He has a .514 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.


So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .540 TS%, 5 under .520 TS%, and 3 under .500 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span. From 88-92, he had a 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.

With Bird you get a nice 4 year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that you get a 4 year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically out of Bird's 13 year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.



Furthermore...

Bird played in an NBA that shot about .485 in his CAREER. Yet, in the post-season, he only shot .472. Which is bad enough, BUT, wait...it gets worse. He shot a CAREER .455 in his five FINALS. In fact, he shot UNDER .399 in his 31 Finals games as often as he shot over .499...ELEVEN times (including TWO games of under .299!) His HIGH Finals series was only .488, and his LOW was .419.

And how did the great "Game Seven" Bird fare in his lone game seven FINALS game? 6-18...or 33%.

Furthermore, in his five Finals, he was only the best player in TWO of them, and in fact, lost out to a TEAMMATE in the '81 Finals for the FMVP (Cedric Maxwell.) In fact, Bird wasn't even the SECOND best player on the floor in TWO more ('85 and '87 Finals.)

He played n a title team in '81, in which his heavily-favored Celtics had to overcome his horrid shooting (.419 from the field) and struggled to beat a 40-42 Rockets team with ONE good player.

His 83-84 ring was not earned, but rather HANDED to him, when the Lakers GAVE AWAY games two and four in that series (and even Bird admitted that Boston should have been SWEPT in that series.)

An his 85-86 title came against a good, but not great 54-28 Rockets team.

The rest of his playoff series resulted in mostly shocking defeats. And many of those the direct result of his awful shooting.

[HomieWeMajor]

http://www.miscupload.com/upload/90930246629662453800312.gif
ooh kill em

[LAZERUSS]

How about Kareem? In the decade of the 70's, which is arguably the WORST decade for CHAMPIONS in NBA HISTORY...Kareem won ONE title, and made it ONE other Finals. In fact, in their four seasons in the league together, Kareem and Wilt each won one ring, but Wilt had a 3-1 edge in Finals.

And let's take a closer look at that decade, too. In his rookie season, his 56-26 Bucks were blown out by the 60-22 Knicks, 4-1. And Kareem played brilliantly, too. BUT, Wilt had SEVERAL similar post-seasons in his career, and with teammates playing FAR worse...and yet, all we ever read is that Wilt was a "choker." How come Kareem doesn't get his share of the blame under the EXACT same circumstances?

And true, he won a ring in '71. However, has there ever been an easier road to a title than what his team, faced that season? They beat a 41-41 Warrior team in the first round. Then they beat Wilt's 48-34 Laker team, that was withOUT BOTH West and Baylor (and a 34 year old Wilt, only a year removed from major knee surgery, battled a PRIME Kareem to a statistical draw in that series, too.) Then, they swept a 42-40 Bullets team in the Finals.

How about Kareem's 71-72 season? Arguably his greatest REGULAR season. 34.8 ppg, 16.6 rpg, and .574 shooting. Then, in the playoffs...Kareem's 63-19 Bucks, with their overwhelming edge in talent, were able to overcome Kareem's 22.8 ppg .405 performance in the first round against the Warriors. BUT, then Kareem flops badly in the '72 WCF's against a 35 year-old Chamberlain that not only reduced Kareem to .457 shooting in the entire series, but a HORRIBLE .414 over the course of the last FOUR games...three of them Laker wins. And, Wilt really pounded Kareem in the clinching game six win, and in Milwaukee.

Kareem put up great numbers again in the 72-73 season (although he only shot .450 against Wilt in six regular season games...and Wilt shot .737 against him.) However, Kareem took his 60-22 team down in flames in the first round of the playoffs against Nate Thurmond's 47-35 Warriors (and in a series in which Oscar was brilliant.) Kareem averaged 22.8 ppg on .428 shooting. Of course, Wilt then took HIS 60-22 team to a blowout 4-1 romp over that SAME Warrior team...and in a series in which Wilt outrebounded Nate, 23.6 rpg to 17.2 rpg, and outshot Thurmond, .550 to .392.

Wilt retired after that...so the assumption was that Kareem would now FINALLY be able to get some titles. What happened? In game seven of the '74 Finals, and on Milwaukee's home floor, Dave Cowens outplayed Kareem in every aspect in leading Boston to a blowout win.

Oscar retired after that season...and guess what happened next? Kareem's Bucks went 38-44 (and only 35-31 with Kareem.) BTW, Kareem missed 16 games that season. How come? He broke his hand in throwing a punch. Why is that significant? For one, it cost Milwaukee any shot at the playoffs. But even more importantly, think about this: Wilt played a clinching game five of the '72 Finals with one badly sprained wrist...and the other FRACTURED. Not only that, Wilt DOMINATED that game, scoring 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocks...en route to the Finals MVP. How come Wilt could play with TWO badly injured wrists (one broken), and yet Kareem missed 16 games with ONE injured wrist. AND, it would not be the last time Kareem would miss a chunk of season with a broken wrist, either. In any case, CLEARLY Wilt could play with a GREAR deal more pain.

As an interesting side note to that 74-75 season...Rick Barry, with rookie Jamaal Wilkes as his second best player, led a 48-34 Warrior team to a title. Here was Barry, with a ragtag roster winning a title. Oh, and more on Wilkes later.

The Bucks basically gave up on Kareem after that disappointing season. He was subsequently traded to the Lakers, along with Lucius Allen. While Kareem was able to help LA win a few more games (going from 30-52 to 40-42...and with HOFer Goodrich at his side), they didn't make the playoffs.

That 75-76 season also brings up another very interesting point about Kareem. In that season, he averaged 27.7 ppg, 16.9 rpg, and shot .529 from the field, in 41 mpg. Now, think about this... in Abdul Jabbar's 71-72 regular season, he played a career high 44 mpg, scored a career high 34.8 ppg, shot a much better .574, and grabbed nearly as many rebounds, at 16.6 rpg. So, here was the "front-running" Kareem, basically "stats-padding" on a team that went 63-19, and had a +11.1 scoring differential. And yet, when his 75-76 Laker team NEEDED him to ELEVATE his game...he shrunk considerably.

THAT is a critical point in these Wilt-Kareem discussions. Wilt could LEAD the league in SCORING, REBOUNDING, and FG%...at the SAME time, whether it be for an AWFUL team, as he did in '63 (44.8 ppg, 24.3 rpg, and a then-record .528 FG%)...or he could LEAD the league in SCORING, REBOUNDING, and FG% for a team with the BEST RECORD in the league...as he did in the 65-66 season (33.5 ppg, 24.6 rpg, and .540 FG%...along with 5.2 apg.) Yet, Kareem, when faced with ordinary rosters, could NOT elevate his game. In fact, he had one of the WORST seasons of his career...and in the middle of his prime.

Kareem's 76-77 Lakers had the best record in the league, going 53-29. Yet, despite Kareem's brilliant post-season, they were SWEPT by Walton's 49-33 Blazers. Here again, Wilt had a MONSTER '64 post-season (34.7 ppg, 25.8 rpg, and on .543 shooting), but his 48-32 Warriors lost a five game series to a Celtic team that had an 8-2 edge in HOFers. Yet...all we read is how Wilt "choked", BUT, where is the criticism of Kareem in '77 then?

IMHO, Kareem had the MOST STACKED teams in the league in '77-78 and '78-79. He had players like Lou Hudson, Norm Nixon, Adrian Dantley (who was averaging 27 ppg when LA acquired him), AND a Wilkes who was now nearing his prime....in BOTH seasons. The result? LA went 45-37 in '78, and were brutalized in the first round by a 47-35 Sonics team that had ONE border-line HOF player in Dennis Johnson. BTW, the 44-38 Bullets won the title that season. Then, in '79, and again with that same basic talent-laden roster, Kareem's Lakers went 47-35, and were blown out in the second round, 4-1, by that same Sonics team.

So, that was Kareem's career in the decade of the 70's. ONE ring, TWO Finals, and mostly early round playoff eliminations, as well as two team's not making the playoffs.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing on Kareem...

Let's once again recap Kareem's career in the 70's. In the weakest decade in NBA history, and with 48-34, 49-33, 44-38, and 52-30 team's winning titles (and 40-42 and 42-40 team's making the Finals)...Kareem won ONE ring (and once again, with arguably the easiest road to a title in NBA history), and went to ONE other Finals. He had a 56-26 team blown out in one ECF's; he had a 63-19 team ripped apart in '72 (escaping into the WCF's after shooting .405 in the first round, and then shooting .457 in the WCF's...including a "choking" .414 over the last four game of that series); a 60-22 team shredded by a 47-35 team in the first round (and in a series win which Kareem shot .428); losing a game seven in the '74 Finals, and on his home floor, when he was outplayed by 6-9 Dave Cowens and the underdog Celtics); missing 16 games due to a broken wrist in '75, and then only leading that team to a 35-31 record when he played (and they subsequently missed the playoffs); having his worst season of the 70's, on a team with an average roster that desperately needed him to step up; watching his 76-77 team, with the best record in the league, being SWEPT by the 49-33 Blazers; and finally, playing with the two most stacked rosters in the league in '78 and '79, and being early round cannon-fodder.

When did Kareem win the BULK of his six rings? Of course it was no coincidence that it came during the MAGIC-era. MAGIC IMMEDIATELY led LA to a 60-22 record. En route, Magic easily led the Lakers past their tormentors from the previous two seasons, the Sonics, in a 4-1 romp. Then, while Kareem played brilliantly in the first five games of the '80 Finals, he missed game six with an ankle sprain. Here again, I have read posters ripping Wilt for his poor play in game six of the '68 ECF's...and yet, they NEVER acknowledge that Wilt played the last FIVE games of that series with THREE different leg and foot injuries, including a tear in his quad muscle. Where is the critcism of Kareem, who SAT OUT a critical game six of the Finals. Fortunately for Kareem, MAGIC stepped up with a HUGE game... 42 points, on 14-23 shooting (and 14-14 from the line), and with a game high 15 rebounds...en route to a title-clinching game six win on the ROAD.

In the 80-81 season, Magic was injured early, and missed much of the last half of the season. He was rusty and nowhere near 100%...and did Kareem step up his game to overcome Magic's injuries...as Magic did the previous season? No, he was battered by a Moses Malone, who took a 40-42 team to a shocking upset of the Lakers. BTW, Kareem shot .462 in that post-season, which would be the third time in his career in which he failed to shoot even the league average (and he would make it a 4th in '88 too.)

Magic came back with a near Triple-Double season in BOTH the regular season, AND the post-season, in 81-82. He was CLEARLY their best player, and he led LA to a dominating title. And in the process, he won his second FMVP in his first three seasons. Oh, and BTW, he finished ahead of Kareem in the MVP balloting, too. And he would finish ahead of Kareem in the MVP balloting in the last EIGHT seasons of the 80's.

Magic did not play well in the '83 Finals, and LA was missing Worthy, too. But, once again. Moses just abused Kareem, crushing him on the glass, and the Sixers romped over the Lakers.

Magic was blamed for the Finals loss in '84, in a series in which the Lakers should have SWEPT Boston (even Bird admitted as much.) BUT, all Magic did in that series, was average 18.1 ppg, LEAD LA in rebounding at 7.7 rpg, dish out 13.6 apg, and shoot an astonishing .560 from the field. How about Kareem. He shot .481 in that Finals. Where was the criticism of Kareem?

Kareem did have a great Finals in '85. And he deserved the FMVP...BUT, it was MAGIC who LED that team in the entire post-season. Magic engineered a Laker offense that averaged 126 ppg in the playoffs.

I have mentioned it many times before, but a 38 year old Kareem just SHELLED Hakeem in the '86 regular season. In five regular season games, Kareem poured in 33 ppg on, get this... .634 shooting against Hakeem. Included in those five games, were TWO of 40+, one of them a 46 point game, on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes.

BUT, in the '86 WCF's, Hakeem suddenly outplayed Kareem (albeit it was SAMPSON who was the primary defender on Kareem, and not the sieve Hakeem...and to his credit, the old man still did average 27 ppg in that series.) However, it begs the question...why could Kareem so thoroughly dominate Hakeem in the regular season...and then collapse in the critical playoffs.

By the '87 post-season, Kareem was not even LA's second best player. Magic was CLEARLY the best player in the league, and now Worthy was his "second banana." And Magic was just sensational in the Finals, averaging 26 ppg, a team leading 8 rpg, handing out 13.0 apg, and shooting .541 from the floor. And behind Magic's play, the Lakers rolled to a title. I have long maintained that had Kareem retired before that season, that LA would still have probably won the title. Both AC Green and Mychael Thompson played exceptionally in that post-season, and both could easily have absorbed Kareem's minutes.

And by the '88 post-season, Kareem was now the FIFTH best player on the Lakers. In fact, they won the title DESPITE Kareem's AWFUL play. 13 ppg, 4 rpg, and a miserable .413 FG%.

Magic was injured in game two of the Finals in '89 (and Scott was already out for that series), and with Magic down, the Lakers were swept. Kareem, at age 41, was now worthless.

Kareem retired after that season...and MAGIC led the Lakers to a 63-19 record, which was their second best record of the decade of the 80's. So much for missing Kareem. Then, in the very next season, Magic took an injury-riddled Laker team to the Finals, where MJ and the Bulls romped, 4-1.

Magic "retired" after that season...and LA IMMEDIATELY fell to a 43-39 record. And the very next year after that, they were below .500, at 39-43.

Now, you tell me who had the most impact on the Showtime Lakers of the 80's?

THAT was this "superior" playoff performer...

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe: 5 rings. 7 Finals. Playoff stats for his last 4 title years: 29/7/6, 27/6/5, 30/6/5, 29/6/6.

Bird: 3 rings. 5 Finals. Playoff stats in his 3 title years: 22/14/6, 28/11/6, 26/9/8.

Kareem: 6 rings. 10 Finals. Playoff stats for his first 4 title years: 27/17/3, 32/12/3, 20/9/4, 22/8/4.

Sorry, no cherrypicking will erase the facts that these players have more championship rings than Wilt.

[K]

Let's address these one-by-one shall we...

Let's begin with your boy Kobe...

How about his play in THE biggest stage in the NBA...the Finals...

Here are his FG%'s and eFG%'s in his seven NBA Finals..

99-00 .367 FG% and a .378 eFG%
00-01 .415 FG% and a .429 eFG%
01-02 .514 FG% and a .558 eFG%
03-04 .381 FG% and a .398 eFG%
07-08 .405 FG% and a .450 eFG%
08-09 .430 FG% and a .474 eFG%
09-10 .405 FG% and a .454 eFG%


And this one is really cool...here are Kobe's LAST playoff games in each of his seasons...

96-97 11 points on 4-14 shooting in an OT defeat (LA loses series 4-1)

97-98 6 points in game four of a sweeping loss.

98-99 16 points on 7-16 shooting in game four of yet another sweeping loss.

99-00 8-27 shooting in game six of the Finals. Shaq puts in 41 on 19-32 shooting to clinch the title.

00-01 7-18 shooting. Shaq wins his second straight FMVP with 29 points.

01-02 7-16 shooting. Shaq wins his third straight MVP with 34 points.

02-03 9-19 shooting in a 110-82 series clinching blowout loss.

03-04 7-21 shooting in a 100-87 (and it was 82-59 going into the 4th quarter) series clinching loss. His heavily favored Lakers are blown out 4-1, in a Finals in which he shoots .381 from the field.

04-05 34-48 team doesn't make playoffs.

05-06 24 points on 8-16 shooting in game seven, in a 121-90 blowout loss, in a series in which his team blows a 3-1 series
lead. 24 points in a critcal game seven, in a season in which he averaged 35.4 ppg.

06-07 13-33 shooting in game five of a 4-1 series loss.

07-08 7-22 shooting in a 131-92 series clinching loss.

08-09 10-23 shooting in a title clinching win.

09-10 6-24 shooting in a game seven win.

10-11 7-18 shooting in a game four 122-86 loss, in his third playoff series sweeping loss.

11-12 42 points, but in yet another big loss, 106-90, in a series in which his lakers are ripped 4-1.

12-13 Did not play in post-season.


Now, you tell me about Kobe's "superior" play in his post-season career. he Lakers won three titkes despite his horrible play in two of them, when it was SHAQ carrying them . KOBE was the reason that LA wa blown out in the '04 Finals. He was simply AWFUL in '08. And his teammates had to overcome his horrible shooting in game seven of the '10 Finals.

http://tragicjohnsonblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/marbury.gif

[millwad]

Jlauber just bashed every top 10 player there is but he forgot to mention that Wilt Chamberlain had the following average;

Regular season- 30.1 ppg / 51.1 FT%
Playoffs- 22.5 ppg / 46.5 FT%
Finals- 18.6 ppg / 37.5 FT%

The same guy who lost 4 times in the finals and who only managed to win when he faced a Knick team that didn't have Reed on the court and in '67 he won while the least points in the starting 5..

CHOKER.

[Element]

He's somewhere around 9th or 8th

MJ
Kareem
Russell
Magic
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
Bird
Wilt
Hakeem

^My list

[LAZERUSS]

Jlauber just bashed every top 10 player there is but he forgot to mention that Wilt Chamberlain had the following average;

Regular season- 30.1 ppg / 51.1 FT%
Playoffs- 22.5 ppg / 46.5 FT%
Finals- 18.6 ppg / 37.5 FT%

The same guy who lost 4 times in the finals and who only managed to win when he faced a Knick team that didn't have Reed on the court and in '67 he won while the least points in the starting 5..

CHOKER.

In '72 a Wilt nearing the end of his career, and way past his prime, reduced KAJ to a brick-shooting .414 FG% over the course of the last four games, and wiped out the defending champion and 63-19 Bucks.

And in '67 he wiped the floor with Russell's eight-time defending champion and 60-21 Celtics, and for good measure, he then wiped the floor with Thurmond. You can ask KAJ about Nate.

Of course, I have already documented KAJ's playoff flops.

[Psileas]

I know that people hate walls of text, but what they show is that when other legends are subject to the same level of scrutiny, they lose quite a bit of their magic - many had easily as many failures and question-marks. You can pull all the "Wilt failures" cards you want, just be prepared when someone creates a similar avalanche involving your own personal favorite(s).

This isn't written necessarily in order to prop everything that Lazer writes (I don't agree with everything after all), but in order to show that I'm not as annoyed as I "should" be in such a case (plus, I'm among those who do read walls of text, and, if necessary, take my time to bring them down).
When it comes to Wilt, after all, this board wasn't any better before Lazeruss, negative Wilt myths and stories still abounded the board, but since Wilt wasn't such a popular topic, even people called haters today were just having toned down discussions, while (most of them) still shared the same/equally negative views with today.

[Iceman#44]

Jlauber just bashed every top 10 player there is but he forgot to mention that Wilt Chamberlain had the following average;

Regular season- 30.1 ppg / 51.1 FT%
Playoffs- 22.5 ppg / 46.5 FT%
Finals- 18.6 ppg / 37.5 FT%

The same guy who lost 4 times in the finals and who only managed to win when he faced a Knick team that didn't have Reed on the court and in '67 he won while the least points in the starting 5..

CHOKER.

I know you have this "thing" with jlauber, but you have to be honest. Wilt has played a lot more of Finals and playoffs games when he was on the downside of his basketball career, thats why his numbers are "down" about scoring. But what about FG% or Reb or Ast?
Wilt Chamberlain won the 1972 Finals MVP, now what about his stats that year?

Wilt Chamberlain 1971-72 season stats:

Season: 14.8 ppg, 19.2 reb, 4.0 ast, .649 FG
Playoff: 14.7 ppg, 21.0 reb, 3.3 ast, .563 FG
Finals: 19.4 ppg, 23.2 reb, 2.6 ast, .600 FG

So...in the Finals, +4.6 ppg, +4.0 reb, .600 FG, 24 points+29 reb in game 5 , almost 20+20 avg x game and you say choker? :biggums: :biggums:

[SilkkTheShocker]

Wilt = Loser.

Sorry, he was always be stuck with that stigma no matter how much Wilt fans say otherwise. The guy only won 2 rings in the weakest era in basketball history.

[havoc33]

Let's address these one-by-one shall we...

Let's begin with your boy Kobe...

How about his play in THE biggest stage in the NBA...the Finals...

Here are his FG%'s and eFG%'s in his seven NBA Finals..

99-00 .367 FG% and a .378 eFG%
00-01 .415 FG% and a .429 eFG%
01-02 .514 FG% and a .558 eFG%
03-04 .381 FG% and a .398 eFG%
07-08 .405 FG% and a .450 eFG%
08-09 .430 FG% and a .474 eFG%
09-10 .405 FG% and a .454 eFG%


And this one is really cool...here are Kobe's LAST playoff games in each of his seasons...

96-97 11 points on 4-14 shooting in an OT defeat (LA loses series 4-1)

97-98 6 points in game four of a sweeping loss.

98-99 16 points on 7-16 shooting in game four of yet another sweeping loss.

99-00 8-27 shooting in game six of the Finals. Shaq puts in 41 on 19-32 shooting to clinch the title.

00-01 7-18 shooting. Shaq wins his second straight FMVP with 29 points.

01-02 7-16 shooting. Shaq wins his third straight MVP with 34 points.

02-03 9-19 shooting in a 110-82 series clinching blowout loss.

03-04 7-21 shooting in a 100-87 (and it was 82-59 going into the 4th quarter) series clinching loss. His heavily favored Lakers are blown out 4-1, in a Finals in which he shoots .381 from the field.

04-05 34-48 team doesn't make playoffs.

05-06 24 points on 8-16 shooting in game seven, in a 121-90 blowout loss, in a series in which his team blows a 3-1 series
lead. 24 points in a critcal game seven, in a season in which he averaged 35.4 ppg.

06-07 13-33 shooting in game five of a 4-1 series loss.

07-08 7-22 shooting in a 131-92 series clinching loss.

08-09 10-23 shooting in a title clinching win.

09-10 6-24 shooting in a game seven win.

10-11 7-18 shooting in a game four 122-86 loss, in his third playoff series sweeping loss.

11-12 42 points, but in yet another big loss, 106-90, in a series in which his lakers are ripped 4-1.

12-13 Did not play in post-season.


Now, you tell me about Kobe's "superior" play in his post-season career. he Lakers won three titkes despite his horrible play in two of them, when it was SHAQ carrying them . KOBE was the reason that LA wa blown out in the '04 Finals. He was simply AWFUL in '08. And his teammates had to overcome his horrible shooting in game seven of the '10 Finals.One of many posts on ISH that pull stats without providing any insight or commentary to the circumstances or performance leading to these games. A classic example of ISH revisionist history, a post with ZERO value. Usually posted by members who are either too young to have seen the game live, and/or pull stats they way they see fit as evidence of proving their biased POV.

The fact that you conclude that Kobe played "horribly" due to poor fg% in the 2000 and 2001 Finals series makes you look completely clueless. I guess in your "expert analysis", a player can't shoot below 50% and still have a good game.

[BoutPractice]

Those who mention Wilt's failures in the playoffs do so on the very same basis, though.

Anyway, to answer the question... of course he is. It would be an insult to basketball to suggest that the player who still holds the most records in the NBA, 40 years after he retired, is not top 10. It would be like excluding Alexander the Great from a list of the great conquerors... it doesn't matter how sophisticated your excuse is, you can't argue something like that and expect to be taken seriously. Wilt is the name that will stay when most of the others are forgotten. People will still talk about him 50 years from now.

[jlip]

...thats why his numbers are "down" about scoring. But what about FG% or Reb or Ast?

Haven't you heard? Statistically dominant means only scoring more points. Other numbers aren't really stats. (Sarcasm)

[Iceman#44]

Let's take a look at the 1967 Finals, the 1st title for Wilt:

WILT CHAMBERLAIN 1967 NBA FINALS STATS:
17.7 ppg, 28.5 reb, 6.8 ast, 10.2 BLOCKS (estimated), .560 FG


Yeah...chuker...:facepalm :facepalm :biggums:

[jlip]

Let's take a look at the 1967 Finals, the 1st title for Wilt:

WILT CHAMBERLAIN 1967 NBA FINALS STATS:
17.7 ppg, 28.5 reb, 6.8 ast, 10.2 BLOCKS (estimated), .560 FG


Yeah...chuker...:facepalm :facepalm :biggums:

If this addressed to me, I was actually supporting you with my last post, not criticizing you. My point is that the average poster foolishly considers a player statistically dominant only based upon scoring. They will say that a player has "raised his game" based soley on looking at points, but disregard defense, rebounds, asts, etc. I was criticizing that line of thinking as I thought you were also.

[Iceman#44]

If this addressed to me, I was actually supporting you with my last post, not criticizing you. My point is that the average poster foolishly considers a player statistically dominant only based upon scoring. They will say that a player has "raised his game" based soley on looking at points, but disregard defense, rebounds, asts, etc. I was criticizing that line of thinking as I thought you were also.

Yeah man, i understand. It was not addressed to you. I hate when people look just at the scoring numbers...hell we are talking about a triple double average in a NBA Finals...:facepalm

[Pointguard]

Let's address these one-by-one shall we...

Let's begin with your boy Kobe...

How about his play in THE biggest stage in the NBA...the Finals...

Here are his FG%'s and eFG%'s in his seven NBA Finals..

99-00 .367 FG% and a .378 eFG%
00-01 .415 FG% and a .429 eFG%
01-02 .514 FG% and a .558 eFG%
03-04 .381 FG% and a .398 eFG%
07-08 .405 FG% and a .450 eFG%
08-09 .430 FG% and a .474 eFG%
09-10 .405 FG% and a .454 eFG%


And this one is really cool...here are Kobe's LAST playoff games in each of his seasons...

96-97 11 points on 4-14 shooting in an OT defeat (LA loses series 4-1)

97-98 6 points in game four of a sweeping loss.

98-99 16 points on 7-16 shooting in game four of yet another sweeping loss.

99-00 8-27 shooting in game six of the Finals. Shaq puts in 41 on 19-32 shooting to clinch the title.

00-01 7-18 shooting. Shaq wins his second straight FMVP with 29 points.

01-02 7-16 shooting. Shaq wins his third straight MVP with 34 points.

02-03 9-19 shooting in a 110-82 series clinching blowout loss.

03-04 7-21 shooting in a 100-87 (and it was 82-59 going into the 4th quarter) series clinching loss. His heavily favored Lakers are blown out 4-1, in a Finals in which he shoots .381 from the field.

04-05 34-48 team doesn't make playoffs.

05-06 24 points on 8-16 shooting in game seven, in a 121-90 blowout loss, in a series in which his team blows a 3-1 series
lead. 24 points in a critcal game seven, in a season in which he averaged 35.4 ppg.

06-07 13-33 shooting in game five of a 4-1 series loss.

07-08 7-22 shooting in a 131-92 series clinching loss.

08-09 10-23 shooting in a title clinching win.

09-10 6-24 shooting in a game seven win.

10-11 7-18 shooting in a game four 122-86 loss, in his third playoff series sweeping loss.

11-12 42 points, but in yet another big loss, 106-90, in a series in which his lakers are ripped 4-1.

12-13 Did not play in post-season.


Now, you tell me about Kobe's "superior" play in his post-season career. he Lakers won three titkes despite his horrible play in two of them, when it was SHAQ carrying them . KOBE was the reason that LA wa blown out in the '04 Finals. He was simply AWFUL in '08. And his teammates had to overcome his horrible shooting in game seven of the '10 Finals.
Dang Duece, Not only did he just hijacked your thread, he's turned it totally against you. This is like a flaws of being a hater 101 class. This totally blew up in your face.

Wilt is top five because every GREAT player since Wlt played dreamed of his nights, weeks and seasons after him for 50 years now. He's the standard for their dreams, not their reality. That's why he is top five.

[Pointguard]

100 point game
73 points per game in the 4 game week (not one below 60 points).
50 ppg in a season Rebounds per game

20/20/20 triple double double
32 rebounds per game in playoffs
27 rpg season
7 years span (40ppg) where he averaged more ppg than the great Jordan ever did in a year.

This is the dream standard. And it looks like it will hold on for a 100 years.

[Iceman#44]

Off topic question: how many players have averaged a triple double during the Finals? Is wilt in 1967 the only one?

[fpliii]

Off topic question: how many players have averaged a triple double during the Finals? Is wilt in 1967 the only one?

http://www.nba.com/playoffs2007/news/series_triple-doubles.html

According to that link, nobody's done it in the Finals (to be fair though, blocks weren't recorded officially, so Wilt and Russ could've done it a few times each).

[Iceman#44]

http://www.nba.com/playoffs2007/news/series_triple-doubles.html

According to that link, nobody's done it in the Finals (to be fair though, blocks weren't recorded officially, so Wilt and Russ could've done it a few times each).


Yeah, i know NBA starts recording Blocks with 73-74 season. Sad that Wilt last season was 72-73...but we still have a lot of good info about Chamberlain's blocking stats, thanks to guys like Harvey Pollack, or official newspaper from that era...

So, Wilt Chamberlain is the only player known to ever average a Triple-Double during the NBA Finals, even if it's "unofficial"...interesting...:cheers: :cheers:

[Marchesk]

Those who mention Wilt's failures in the playoffs do so on the very same basis, though.

Anyway, to answer the question... of course he is. It would be an insult to basketball to suggest that the player who still holds the most records in the NBA, 40 years after he retired, is not top 10. It would be like excluding Alexander the Great from a list of the great conquerors... it doesn't matter how sophisticated your excuse is, you can't argue something like that and expect to be taken seriously. Wilt is the name that will stay when most of the others are forgotten. People will still talk about him 50 years from now.

And there is this. Wilt's name will be remembered.

[jlip]

Off topic question: how many players have averaged a triple double during the Finals? Is wilt in 1967 the only one?

The closest I can think to anyone avg. a triple double in the Finals was Bird in '86. He avg. 24ppg 9.7rpg 9.5apg that series.

[julizaver]

Yeah, i know NBA starts recording Blocks with 73-74 season. Sad that Wilt last season was 72-73...but we still have a lot of good info about Chamberlain's blocking stats, thanks to guys like Harvey Pollack, or official newspaper from that era...

So, Wilt Chamberlain is the only player known to ever average a Triple-Double during the NBA Finals, even if it's "unofficial"...interesting...:cheers: :cheers:

According to my info collected from archive papers Wilt had around 40 blocks after the first 4 games, I have no info about Game 5, but in Game 6 he had 6 blocks. So he should have at least 14 blocks in Game 5 in order to average triple double. Probably he was very close to average triple double in the finals.

[Deuce Bigalow]

One of many posts on ISH that pull stats without providing any insight or commentary to the circumstances or performance leading to these games. A classic example of ISH revisionist history, a post with ZERO value. Usually posted by members who are either too young to have seen the game live, and/or pull stats they way they see fit as evidence of proving their biased POV.

The fact that you conclude that Kobe played "horribly" due to poor fg% in the 2000 and 2001 Finals series makes you look completely clueless. I guess in your "expert analysis", a player can't shoot below 50% and still have a good game.
This. Let's look at it with more data.

2000- 26 points, 10 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steal, 2 blocks, 33.3 3pt% (2/6), 88.9 ft% (8/9)

2001- 26 points, 12 rebounds, 6 assists, 1 steal, 1 block, 66.7 3pt% (2/3), 90.9 ft% (10/11)

2002- 25 points, 6 rebounds, 8 assists, 2 steals, 66.7 3pt% (2/3), 81.8 ft% (9/11)

2009- 30 points, 6 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals, 4 blocks, 40.0 3pt% (2/5), 100% ft% (8/8)

2010- 23 points, 15 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal, 0% 3pt% (0/6), 73.3 ft% (11/15)

That's 5 championships right there. Still a fact that he is a 5x champion. Cherrypicking one game of every championship doesn't take any of them away. Kobe 5. Wilt 2. I know jlauber, it hurts, but deal with it. Also shooting below 50% does not mean inefficient if your a perimeter player that can shoot a good percentage from the 3 and the freethrow line. Efficiency is field goals, 3 pointers, and freethrows. I know you don't like freethrows because Wilt shoots 45% in the playoffs and 37% in the Finals.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Dang Duece, Not only did he just hijacked your thread, he's turned it totally against you. This is like a flaws of being a hater 101 class. This totally blew up in your face.

Wilt is top five because every GREAT player since Wlt played dreamed of his nights, weeks and seasons after him for 50 years now. He's the standard for their dreams, not their reality. That's why he is top five.
How many of those games where close losses where his FG% could have directly impacted the game? None. Players dream of winning, not losing in the playoffs and finals nearly every time.

[Gwin631]

If this addressed to me, I was actually supporting you with my last post, not criticizing you. My point is that the average poster foolishly considers a player statistically dominant only based upon scoring. They will say that a player has "raised his game" based soley on looking at points, but disregard defense, rebounds, asts, etc. I was criticizing that line of thinking as I thought you were also.
That year was the year that Wilt changed his game for a while to be a much better passer since he was critiqued for shooting too much.

[Pointguard]

How many of those games where close losses where his FG% could have directly impacted the game? None. Players dream of winning, not losing in the playoffs and finals nearly every time.
I disagree. If my individual work is still the standard that everybody DREAMS about, its more than the ring count. 95% maybe 98% of well versed fans don't know Mikan's ring count. 100% of casual fans know who scored 100 points. Non-basketball fans know about the 100 points. If your work is glorified and the standard for greats for 100 years its more than ring count.

Wilt won twice, he has that experience. Nobody but Wilt has the 40, 45, 50 ppg experience. Its his rarefied air. Russell won like crazy, unlike anybody else (very close to twice that of Jordan) and he is rarely considered the best anymore - and he seemed depressed for like two decades. I still don't know how many titles Babe Ruth won but I know his great great great grand kids get asked about his home run record. It was part of American culture. Wilt's record is part of world culture now.

Would I want glorified worldwide immortality for my work and the respect of all peers after me or something that some group of people are guaranteed every year? Greatness is mostly in how things are done by an individual. This winning in basketball is a new phenom that might not catch on. Jim Brown best football player for like 40 years - what's his ring count? Gretsky greatest hockey player - what's his ring count? Ruth - what's his ring count? Don't kid yourself.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Just look at Bird's long list of playoff failures while Dirk improves his play in the postseason:

1980- Averaged a .511 TS% in the postseason. In game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had a 18.3 PER in the postseason

1981- Has a .532 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .419 shooting and .460 TS%.

1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .474 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.

1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .478 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.

1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .607 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoff of his career. Celtics win the title over the Lakers.

1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .536 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular season average. His Finals TS% is just .527. Not only that, but Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.

1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .615 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.

1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.375) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .377 shooting and .492 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.

1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .538 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.

1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.

1990- Bird shoots .539 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.

1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .490 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .446 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.

1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular season average. He has a .514 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.


So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .540 TS%, 5 under .520 TS%, and 3 under .500 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span. From 88-92, he had a 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.

With Bird you get a nice 4 year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that you get a 4 year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically out of Bird's 13 year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.

What a bunch of Bs.

1980 - In 1979 that same team went 29-53 in the RS (2nd worst), with the arrival of Bird happens one of the biggest turnarounds in history, up to 61 wins (best) and reaching the ECF, pretty much the same squad, Bird as a rookie leading the way, that even injured his finger on his shooting hand in the beginning of the season, making it crooked forever... Such a fail :facepalm

1981 - Bad Finals? So now 15.3/15.3/7.0/2.3/0.5 is bad? Lmfao. Nobody pulled a 15+/15+/7+ ever in a Finals series.
For the series only trailed Moses, one of the GOAT rebounders as a center, by 6 rebounds and playing less minutes. Pretty much shut down the player(s) he was guarding. Leading everyone in assists and steals. Yes he had a bad shooting/scoring series but was still the 3rd best scorer in the series and had no superstar level teammate, plus all the attention on him, coming outside, making terrific passes, helped Max a lot with his scoring. Decisive game 6 he put up 27/13/5 on 11/20, really clutch in the 4th. And that was a really physical series, plenty of today's superstars wouldn't handle that. Go watch it.
Lets forget what he did the previous series against the 76ers and MVP Julius Erving though.. With Bobby Jones and Erving on him, he put up 26.7 ppg, 13.4 rpg, 4.6 apg on 48.6 %FG/55.4 %TS, with a terrific game 7. MVP Erving during that series: 19.9 ppg, 5.9 rpg , 4.1 apg on 43.3%FG/48.8 %TS.
They also won it all, Bird as a sophomore, leading a previously terrible team, adding Parish and cutting Cowens.
Such a failure :rolleyes:

1982 - He had a bad PS this year considering his standards, no excuses. They almost got to the Finals though.

1983 - Bird was injured, lets forget that right?! :facepalm Look at what the rest did without him remotely close to 100%.

1984 - One of the best PS runs ever right there.

1985 - Was having another monster year. Baldy injured his right hand in a bar fight during the PS though, but lets neglect that again?!? :rolleyes:
If he was healthy the Celtics would most likely beat the Lakers again, they took them to 6 with an injured Bird, of course without him at 100% they couldn't do much, even so he was really good.

1986 - Amazing PS run, leading one of the goat teams.

1987 - Team was filled with injuries, virtually no bench, starters had to log major minutes. At 30, Bird played 41 mpg in the RS, easily his highest, and 44 in the PS over the course of 23 games. Lakers with one of the goat teams and an easy road to the Finals, Celtics faced great teams, had gruelsome series, were beat down, still took them to 6, Bird still did his thing already with back problems, McHale with a broken foot, Parish and Ainge also with some injuries. His series against the Bad Boys was simply amazing, with that famous steal also.

1988 - Similar story to 1987, Larry was having a beastly RS, after cutting some weight, but injuries took a toll, back issues and bone spurs in both heels. Never made excuses but was on his last legs in the PS.

After 1988 I won't say much, he was still playing on a level that the vast majority can't reach but he was a shell. After back surgery, couldn't practice plenty of times, plenty mobility gone, overweight, after surgery on both heels. Can't judge that. He still had major impact as a shell on a team that wasn't doing much without him.

Dirk is a great player but only is up there with Bird in terms of shooting/scoring, not far in terms of rebounding.. Playmaking, defense, even intangibles, forget it. People trying to put Dirk on the same level as Bird :lol

[SHAQisGOAT]

The "clutch" Bird, who played with HOF-laden rosters his entire career, and won THREE rings?

Furthermore...

Bird played in an NBA that shot about .485 in his CAREER. Yet, in the post-season, he only shot .472. Which is bad enough, BUT, wait...it gets worse. He shot a CAREER .455 in his five FINALS. In fact, he shot UNDER .399 in his 31 Finals games as often as he shot over .499...ELEVEN times (including TWO games of under .299!) His HIGH Finals series was only .488, and his LOW was .419.

And how did the great "Game Seven" Bird fare in his lone game seven FINALS game? 6-18...or 33%.

Furthermore, in his five Finals, he was only the best player in TWO of them, and in fact, lost out to a TEAMMATE in the '81 Finals for the FMVP (Cedric Maxwell.) In fact, Bird wasn't even the SECOND best player on the floor in TWO more ('85 and '87 Finals.)

He played n a title team in '81, in which his heavily-favored Celtics had to overcome his horrid shooting (.419 from the field) and struggled to beat a 40-42 Rockets team with ONE good player.

His 83-84 ring was not earned, but rather HANDED to him, when the Lakers GAVE AWAY games two and four in that series (and even Bird admitted that Boston should have been SWEPT in that series.)

An his 85-86 title came against a good, but not great 54-28 Rockets team.

The rest of his playoff series resulted in mostly shocking defeats. And many of those the direct result of his awful shooting.


Plenty of times he had great teammates but he made them better also. Plus, he played in what's most likely the goat era, in the stacked EC, had to go against amazing teams. Magic had better teammates overall and played in a weaker conference (plus Kareem was the leader when he got there, and a beast), teams more stacked. Look at the 76ers, the Bucks, the Pistons, and so on, terrific teams, simply stacked.
Again in 1979 Celtics were one of the worst teams and Bird changed that with the same roster. By 1987 Celtics didn't have a team to compete also. In 1981 led them to a title as a sophomore, just adding Parish with Cowens gone, and Parish wasn't all that with the Warriors. Robert ain't no HoF without Bird. McHale only came into his own in 1984, and started since 1986, peaking but then falling right after to injuries, I can see him in the HoF without Bird. DJ was not at his best anymore, not a HoF if he didn't play for the Celtics. Walton was good but a shell and only 1 year.
When Bird was out in 1989, even with Reggie Lewis, Celtics dropped 15 wins, swept in the 1st round. Bird returning as a shell still improved them by 10 wins. Go look at the same situation for MJ and the Bulls just to compare.

Look at the stats when he healthy (even considering 1983 and 1985 when he was not), not injured as a complete shell. Plus at his peak, simply a beast.

Oh, you want to go into game 7's, or decisive games:

Larry Bird - 10 games (7-3 record)

81 ECF vs. Sixers G7: 23/11/5/3/4 (8/17, 6/7) and 1 T/O W

82 ECF vs. Sixers G7: 20/11/9/2 (7/18, 6/8) L

84 WCSF vs. Knicks G7: 39/12/10 (13/24, 12/12) W

84 Finals vs. Lakers G7: 20/12/3/1/2 (6/18, 8/8) and 2 T/O W

87 ECSF vs. Bucks G7: 31/10/8/2/2 (9/21, 13/13) and 3 T/O W

87 ECF vs. Pistons G7: 37/9/9/2/0 (13/24, 10/10) and 3 T/O W

88 ECSF vs. Hawks G7: 34/4/6/1/1 (15/24, 3/3) and 4 T/O W

90 R1 vs. Knicks G5: 31/9/5/1/1 (11/25, 8/9) and 1 T/O L

91 R1 vs. Pacers G5: 32/9/7/0/1 (12/19, 8/10) and 4 T/O W

92 ECSF vs. Cavs G7: 12/5/4/0/0 (6/9, 0/0) and 2 T/O L

G7 Average: 27.0 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 6.8 apg on 49.7 %FG/59.4 %TS

Average: 27.9 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 6.6 apg on 50.3 %FG/59.5 %TS

Average (-92): 29.7 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 6.9 apg on 49.5 %FG/59.3 %TS

Dare you to find someone better in league history, considering the record and amounts of games played.

:biggums: Now you're underrating his 1984 PS run, or Finals?
Go look at his teammates stats and what they were doing, considering their level, considering their regular season, most of them playing well below their usual. Bird led the team in points, rebounds, assists, FG%, FT%, steals, 3rd in 3P% shooting more 3's and 3rd in blocks... How ****in awesome is that? Leading the way against some really great and stacked teams.
In the Finals against the mighty showtime Lakers, so freaking stacked with Kareem, Magic, Worthy, McAdoo, Cooper, Wilkes, Rambis, Scott.. With all the attention on him with some great defenders, what he did? Led the Celtics in points, rebounds, steals, FG%, 3P%, 3rd in assists, 2nd in blocks, 3rd in FT% with more FT's, and leading them to the title, with most teammates underperforming again.
Ring not earned?? :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm


As for you underrating Kareem also, in the following posts, I already called you out on the same post filled with BS, before. Anything to overrate Magic and Wilt right? :facepalm

Terrible post really

[Greg Oden 50]

Wilt = Loser.

Sorry, he was always be stuck with that stigma no matter how much Wilt fans say otherwise. The guy only won 2 rings in the weakest era in basketball history.
but still way stronger than lebron james face :banana:

[Greg Oden 50]

And how did Mr. 2-Ring choker do against his "powerful" 6'8 white guy competition???

how about shaq choke against 6"7 big ben :roll:

[aj1987]

how about shaq choke against 6"7 big ben :roll:
When the hell did Shaq choke? He averaged 27/11 on 63% (only 17 shots per game). You must be thinking about Kobe (23/3/4 on 38% & 23 shots per game).

[Iceman#44]

According to my info collected from archive papers Wilt had around 40 blocks after the first 4 games, I have no info about Game 5, but in Game 6 he had 6 blocks. So he should have at least 14 blocks in Game 5 in order to average triple double. Probably he was very close to average triple double in the finals.

To my knowledge, Wilt had 42 blocks during the first 4 games, then 13 in game 5 and 6 in game 6 = 61 blocks in 6 Finals games, 10.2 avg

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[LAZERUSS]

MJ played on five teams with losing records in his career. He also was 1-9 in his first ten playoff games (and 0-6 against Bird's Celtics...and I already pointed out the MANY post-season failures Bird sustained.) In his last three Finals, MJ shot .455, .427, and get this... .415.

Furthermore, Jordan didn't win anything until the likes of Pippen and Grant were added to his rosters. And later, Rodman and Kerr, to go along with Pippen and Kukoc.

How good were those Bulls rosters? In MJ's 92-93 season, his Bulls went 57-25, and won the title. He retired after that season, and with only Kukoc and Pete Myers replacing him, Chicago went 55-27. Not only that, but that Bulls team lost a close game seven to a 56-26 Knicks team, that would go on to lose a close game seven against the 58-24 Rockets. Clearly, that roster was capable of contending for a title withOUT Jordan. And, his 95-96 thru 97-98 rosters were even more loaded.

None of this is meant as a knock on MJ, but let's keep Wilt's track record in a proper perspective. Jordan averaged 43.7 ppg against a 67-15 Celtics team with FIVE HOFers in the 85-86 playoffs, and his team was SWEPT. How about Chamberlain in his 61-62 post-season? He single-handedly carried an aged roster to a 49-31 record, and then past a more talented Syracuse team in the first round of the playoffs. Then, he battled a swarming Celtic team that had gone 60-20, and loaded with SEVEN HOFers, to a game seven, two point loss, in a post-season in which his teammates collectively shot .354 from the floor.

Or how about Wilt's 64-65 playoff run? He once again single-handedly carried his 40-40 Sixers past the 48-32 (and stacked Royals) in a 3-1 first round romp. Then, he carried what had been a non-playoff roster the year before, to a game seven, one point loss, against the 62-18 Celtics, in arguably their greatest season in their dynasty run...in a series in which he averaged 30 ppg, 31 rpg, and shot .555 from the floor (in a post-season NBA that shot .429 TW.)

[LAZERUSS]

When the hell did Shaq choke? He averaged 27/11 on 63% (only 17 shots per game). You must be thinking about Kobe (23/3/4 on 38% & 23 shots per game).

Shaq seldom "choked", but neither did Wilt.

Shaq played a very poor series against Ostertag forcryingoutloud in the 96-97 semis, when he only averaged 23 ppg on .492 shooting. He also seldom put up huge series against the Spurs, either. Think of that in this fashion, the great Celtic teams of the 60's were the defensive equivalent of the Spurs teams that Shaq battled, and a prime Shaq didn't put up the numbers that a prime Wilt did against Russell and those swarming Boston teams.

Furthermore, the "anti-Wilt" gang always bring up his TEAM's failures, but what about Shaq's TEAMs failures. While Shaq outplayed Hakeem in the '95 Finals, his favored team lost because his teammates were badly outplayed by Hakeem's. And Shaq's '04 Finals, his heavily-favored TEAM was blown out by the Pistons, 4-1.

In fact, Shaq was on the losing end of SIX SWEEPS in his post-season career, as well as several more 4-1 losses. Yet, Wilt gets slammed for "losing" in by razor-thin margins in seven game series in which his team was either an under-dog, or heavy under-dog?



Wilt gets ripped for "only" winning two rings, but keep in mind that in his 13 playoff series, (his TEAM missed the playoffs in 62-63)...he lost to the eventual champion, in TEN of them. Combine that with his two titles, and that means that he either lost to the eventual champ, or won a title, in 12 of his 13 post-seasons. Furthermore, his TEAM's faced HOF-laden rosters in those 12 post-seasons. Boston had between FIVE to NINE HOFers every year in the ten years that Wilt and Russell were in the league together. And Wilt's TEAMs faced the Celtic dynasty in eight of them. Chamberlain's teams also battled the Knicks in three Finals, and those NY teams had between FOUR to SIX HOFers on them (as well as very deep rosters.) And he also faced the Kareem-Oscar duo in two post-seasons (teams that went 66-16 and 63-19 BTW), and in the one in which his TEAM lost, he ddn't have either West or Baylor in that series.

In fact, Chamberlain's TEAMs lost in game seven's FIVE times, with FOUR of them by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points. And factoing in the decimating injuries his team had in '68, four of those teams were not favored, and in the one in which they were, and lost, he was on the bench in the last five minutes of a two-point loss. And in that game, Wilt shot 7-8 from the floor, while Russell shot 2-7. Take away those two players, and Boston outshot Wilt's teammates by a .477 to .360 margin.


I have seen posters slam Wilt for supposedly getting swept by a losing team in the playoffs (60-61, when his 46-33 Warriors lost to the 38-41 Nats), BUT, think about this... Kareem's 54-28 Lakers lost in the first round of the '81 playoffs against a 40-42 Rockets team. The difference? While Chamberlain was trashing the Nats frontcourt of Kerr and the 7-3 Swede Halbrook to the tune of 37 ppg and 23 rpg...Kareem was getting his a$$ spanked by Moses Malone in "his" defeat.

The "anti-Wilt" gang always play the DOUBLE STANDARD when it comes to Wilt. He is to blame when he lays brilliantly, and his team loses, and his injuries are completely ignored, even though he was playing nearly every minute of every playoff game, and even in one post-season in which he returned from major knee surgery after just four months.

[millwad]

MJ played on five teams with losing records in his career. He also was 1-9 in his first ten playoff games (and 0-6 against Bird's Celtics...and I already pointed out the MANY post-season failures Bird sustained.) In his last three Finals, MJ shot .455, .427, and get this... .415.

Furthermore, Jordan didn't win anything until the likes of Pippen and Grant were added to his rosters. And later, Rodman and Kerr, to go along with Pippen and Kukoc.




Haha, so now you even try to bash Jordan in a try to hype up Wilt.. You fail so hard.

What the hell did Wilt win without HOF:ers and all-stars?

In '67 he had following guys next to him:

Hal Greer - HOF
Larry Costello - All-Star
Billy Cunningham - HOF
Luke Jackson - All-Star
Chet Walker - HOF

In '72 Wilt had following guys next to him:

Jerry West - HOF
Gail Goodrich - HOF
Jim McMillan - averaged 19 points per game in the '72 playoffs

[LAZERUSS]

Haha, so now you even try to bash Jordan in a try to hype up Wilt.. You fail so hard.

What the hell did Wilt win without HOF:ers and all-stars?

In '67 he had following guys next to him:

Hal Greer - HOF
Larry Costello - All-Star
Billy Cunningham - HOF
Luke Jackson - All-Star
Chet Walker - HOF

In '72 Wilt had following guys next to him:

Jerry West - HOF
Gail Goodrich - HOF
Jim McMillan - averaged 19 points per game in the '72 playoffs

And how about his opposing teams in those seasons? The '67 Celtics had SEVEN HOFers, and the '72 Knicks had FIVE. (Nor were Costello and Jackson "All-Stars" in '67, either.)

BTW, Wilt's teammates collectively shot .414 from the field in his '72 post-season run.

[millwad]

Furthermore, the "anti-Wilt" gang always bring up his TEAM's failures, but what about Shaq's TEAMs failures. While Shaq outplayed Hakeem in the '95 Finals, his favored team lost because his teammates were badly outplayed by Hakeem's. And Shaq's '04 Finals, his heavily-favored TEAM was blown out by the Pistons, 4-1.

Revisionist history, it's hilarious how you hype up one player just to bash him like crazy the other second. All to just make others failures seem much worse than Wilt's, it's pathetic.

And you still keep spamming about how "Shaq outplayed Hakeem" in the '95, you're the only one who thinks so. You have already proved that you didn't see the finals and you "forget" to mention how crazy much trouble Shaq had in that series with TO's and that he averaged the most amount of TO's per game among all centers in NBA history in the finals.

And it's also hilarious how you keep to lie about that series and that you judge it based on cherry picked stats, you never even mention Shaq's massive turnover number. But at the same time you claim that Wilt "murdered" Kareem in the '72 playoffs while Kareem outscored Wilt with 23 points per game, averaged more assists, shot with a better FG%, shot twice as good in terms of % from the FT-line.

Your reason to give the edge to Wilt in that series is because of a cherry picked article, but in Hakeem's case you have all the media crowning him as the champ and that he outplayed Shaq, even Shaq himself admits that he got outplayed. But hey, the media is wrong and Shaq is wrong.. Just as long as it fits your agenda.. :facepalm

[LAZERUSS]

And for those that may have missed it...


'60 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .380 from the field. Lose game six of EDF's.

'61 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .332 from the field. Lose in 1st round.

'62 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .354 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'64 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .383 from the field. Lose in game five of Finals.

'65 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .413 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'66 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .352 from the field. Lose in game five of EDF's.

'67 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .428 from the field. Wins Title

'68 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .416 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'69 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .421 from the field. Lose gaeme seven of Finals.

'70 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .469 from the field. Lose game seven of Finals.

'71 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .446 from the field. Lose game five of WCF's.

'72 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .414 from the field. Wins Title.

'73 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .446 from the field. Lose game five of Finals.


And who had "HOF" teammates who provided these great performances...


Quote:
Playoff FG%'s...

'60 Arizin .431 Gola .412
'61 Arizin .325 Gola .206
'62 Arizin .375 Gola .271
'63 Gola...played 21 games and was shipped out
'64 Thurmond .438
'65 Thurmond (?)...half the season. Greer .455 Walker .480
'66 Greer .352 Cunningham .161 Walker .375
'67 Greer .429 Walker .467 Cunningham .376
'68 Greer .432 Walker .410 Cunningham broke wrist in first round (played 3 games)
'69 West .469 Baylor .385
'70 West .469 Baylor .466
'71 West and Baylor...both injured and do not play in playoffs. Goodrich .425
'72 Baylor retires after 9 nine games. West .376. Goodrich .445
'73 West .449 Goodrch .448

'62 Meschery was NOT an all-star. Shoots .397 in playoffs.
'63 Meschery (* All Star. Played 64 games. 16 ppg .425 FG% during season.)
'63 Rodgers (shoots .387 in regular season.
'64 Rodgers .329 in post-season.
'65 Jackson .338 in playoffs.

THAT was Wilt's "HOF" "Help" in his post-season career.

[LAZERUSS]

Revisionist history, it's hilarious how you hype up one player just to bash him like crazy the other second. All to just make others failures seem much worse than Wilt's, it's pathetic.

And you still keep spamming about how "Shaq outplayed Hakeem" in the '95, you're the only one who thinks so. You have already proved that you didn't see the finals and you "forget" to mention how crazy much trouble Shaq had in that series with TO's and that he averaged the most amount of TO's per game among all centers in NBA history in the finals.

And it's also hilarious how you keep to lie about that series and that you judge it based on cherry picked stats, you never even mention Shaq's massive turnover number. But at the same time you claim that Wilt "murdered" Kareem in the '72 playoffs while Kareem outscored Wilt with 23 points per game, averaged more assists, shot with a better FG%, shot twice as good in terms of % from the FT-line.

Your reason to give the edge to Wilt in that series is because of a cherry picked article, but in Hakeem's case you have all the media crowning him as the champ and that he outplayed Shaq, even Shaq himself admits that he got outplayed. But hey, the media is wrong and Shaq is wrong.. Just as long as it fits your agenda.. :facepalm


Shaq committed 21 TOs in the 95 Finals, while Hakeem committed 11. Let's not get too excited about that stat.

As for Wilt and Kareem. Chamberlain's FG% was not a factor. He missed 20 shots in the entire series. Kareem missed 107. Furthermore, in the last four pvotal games of that series, Kareem couldn't hit the ocean from a lifeboat, just shooting .414 in that span. KAJ's horrible shooting certainly hurt his team far more than Wilt's.

[millwad]

And how about his opposing teams in those seasons? The '67 Celtics had SEVEN HOFers, and the '72 Knicks had FIVE. (Nor were Costello and Jackson "All-Stars" in '67, either.)

BTW, Wilt's teammates collectively shot .414 from the field in his '72 post-season run.

Why are you lying?
The '67 Celtic team had 5 HOF:ers, not 7. So much for being a basketball historian. Now you even lie about the opposing teams.

And among those 5, KC Jones is included and the guy was never an all-star to begin with. He's only a HOF:er thanks to Bill Russell and the rest of the squads. And if you want to count Russell, then you have to count in Wilt as well as a HOF:er which I didn't because I was comparing his teams compared to the opponents.

I didn't say that Costello and Jackson were All-stars in '67. You on the other hand lied and claimed that the Celtics had 2 more HOF:ers then what they really had. Why do you lie?

And buhu, Wilt's teammates carried him in the '72 playoffs while Wilt himself was getting outscored with 23 points per game by Kareem while also making less of his shots based on %.

And the Knicks didn't have Reed in the '72 playoffs.

[LAZERUSS]

Why are you lying?
The '67 Celtic team had 5 HOF:ers, not 7. So much for being a basketball historian. Now you even lie about the opposing teams.

And among those 5, KC Jones is included and the guy was never an all-star to begin with. He's only a HOF:er thanks to Bill Russell and the rest of the squads. And if you want to count Russell, then you have to count in Wilt as well as a HOF:er which I didn't because I was comparing his teams compared to the opponents.

I didn't say that Costello and Jackson were All-stars in '67. You on the other hand lied and claimed that the Celtics had 2 more HOF:ers then what they really had. Why do you lie?

And buhu, Wilt's teammates carried him in the '72 playoffs while Wilt himself was getting outscored with 23 points per game by Kareem while also making less of his shots based on %.

And the Knicks didn't have Reed in the '72 playoffs.

Embry, Havlicek, Howell, KC Jones, Sam Jones, Russell, and Sanders. ALL in the HOF.

Furthemore, KC Jones and Satch Sanders were generally considered among the best defenders in the league in their careers. And Embry was a FIVE-TIME All-Star BTW.

And, no, WILT carried his Lakers in the '72 post-season. He reduced KAJ, in his greatest statistical season, to a shot-jacking brick-layer that shot .457 in the series, and .414 in the last four games (three of the losses.) And Wilt was the FMVP with a 19.4 ppg, 23.2 rpg, 7.4 bpg, .600 FG% Finals, in a Finals in which West shot .325 from the field.

[millwad]

Shaq committed 21 TOs in the 95 Finals, while Hakeem committed 11. Let's not get too excited about that stat.

As for Wilt and Kareem. Chamberlain's FG% was not a factor. He missed 20 shots in the entire series. Kareem missed 107. Furthermore, in the last four pvotal games of that series, Kareem couldn't hit the ocean from a lifeboat, just shooting .414 in that span. KAJ's horrible shooting certainly hurt his team far more than Wilt's.

Oh, such a moron.

First of all, Shaq almost averaged twice as many TO's per game over 4 games. There's a big difference between 2.75 TO's per game compared to 5.25 TO's per game. Shaq had the highest turnover average in NBA history among centers in the finals, don't try to avoid that fact. He was a turnover machine.

And again, why is the media and Shaq wrong in that series while you rely completely on a cherry picked article that doesn't even describe the whole series when you give the massive edge to Wilt in the '72 series? It's a laughable and only proves that you're a hypocrite.

I like how you always avoid why Wilt was able to win while being locked down on offense. It didn't hit the Laker team because Wilt was carried by his freaking teammates. Wilt was outscored with 23 freaking points per game and you would have a case if Wilt would have shot the ball good but his FG% was worse than Kareem's and his FT% was just horrible. Wilt had the luxury to have high scoring teammates unlike Kareem, you moron.

[Round Mound]

Wilt = The Greatest Center Ever
Wilt = Greatest Peek of All Time
Wilt = A Top 3 GOAT Player

[CavaliersFTW]

Wilt = The Greatest Center Ever
Wilt = Greatest Peek of All Time
Wilt = A Top 3 GOAT Player
this guy gets it :applause:

[millwad]

Embry, Havlicek, Howell, KC Jones, Sam Jones, Russell, and Sanders. ALL in the HOF.

Wayne Embry is not a HOF player, you freaking moron. He is the Hall Of Fame as a contributor, not as a player. Why do you make up so much? And Embry averaged 5.2 points in the '67 playoffs on 38% shooting.

The same with Sanders, he is not in the HOF as a player but as a contributor, you're so full of shit. And your beloved Sanders averaged 4.9 points on 34% shooting in the '67 playoffs.





Furthemore, KC Jones and Satch Sanders were generally considered among the best defenders in the league in their careers. And Embry was a FIVE-TIME All-Star BTW.

Embry was still not a HOF player and he was shit in '67, so were Sanders and KC Jones.

Your beloved KC Jones is the biggest joke in the HOF and in '67 he averaged 6.6 points on 32% shooting in the playoffs.. :facepalm


And, no, WILT carried his Lakers in the '72 post-season. He reduced KAJ, in his greatest statistical season, to a shot-jacking brick-layer that shot .457 in the series, and .414 in the last four games (three of the losses.) And Wilt was the FMVP with a 19.4 ppg, 23.2 rpg, 7.4 bpg, .600 FG% Finals, in a Finals in which West shot .325 from the field.

Again you're hiding behind numbers and cherry picked stats.

First of all, you and everyone else knows that Wilt dominated the finals scoring wise because Reed was out and that the Knicks were very undersized. Kareem totally shut Wilt down and whine all you want about Kareem's FG%, he still shot better than Wilt and outscored him with 23 points per game while also averaging more assists and shooting way better from the FT-line.

And again, why are you relying so much on an article that doesn't describe the whole series between Wilt and Kareem while you're completely against all media and Shaq himself regarding the '95 series?

You're nothing but a lying hypocrite.

[LAZERUSS]

Oh, such a moron.

First of all, Shaq almost averaged twice as many TO's per game over 4 games. There's a big difference between 2.75 TO's per game compared to 5.25 TO's per game. Shaq had the highest turnover average in NBA history among centers in the finals, don't try to avoid that fact. He was a turnover machine.

And again, why is the media and Shaq wrong in that series while you rely completely on a cherry picked article that doesn't even describe the whole series when you give the massive edge to Wilt in the '72 series? It's a laughable and only proves that you're a hypocrite.

I like how you always avoid why Wilt was able to win while being locked down on offense. It didn't hit the Laker team because Wilt was carried by his freaking teammates. Wilt was outscored with 23 freaking points per game and you would have a case if Wilt would have shot the ball good but his FG% was worse than Kareem's and his FT% was just horrible. Wilt had the luxury to have high scoring teammates unlike Kareem, you moron.

So then you are in a 100% agreement that Wilt should have won FIVE rings from '60 thru '66, when he was leading both his team, and his opponents teams, in scoring in all five of his post-seasons? And he was outshooting his opposing centers by staggering margins, as well as crushing them all on the glass. And that, if Wilt would have swapped roster with Russell in their 62-63 seasons, that Wilt would have easily won a ring that season, as well? So, if KAJ was better in '72, than Wilt was DEFINITELY better from '60 thru '66, when he was MILES ahead of his peers (playoff oponents) in PLAYOFF SCORING (as well as rebounding and FG%.)

And as I have shown, Wilt had virtually ZERO help in his post-seasons from '60 thru '66. It was amazing that he got as far as he did.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt = The Greatest Center Ever
Wilt = Greatest Peek of All Time
Wilt = A Top 3 GOAT Player

Without a doubt.

This OP was completely ridiculous.

And I am not done with these other "greats" on this list, and their "failures", yet either...

More to come...

[millwad]

So then you are in a 100% agreement that Wilt should have won FIVE rings from '60 thru '66, when he was leading both his team, and his opponents teams, in scoring in all five of his post-seasons? And he was outshooting his opposing centers by staggering margins, as well as crushing them all on the glass. And that, if Wilt would have swapped roster with Russell in their 62-63 seasons, that Wilt would have easily won a ring that season, as well? So, if KAJ was better in '72, than Wilt was DEFINITELY better from '60 thru '66, when he was MILES ahead of his peers in PLAYOFF SCORING (as well as rebounding and FG%.)

Why are you completely avoiding every single point people make when they're discussing with you? When you have no answer you completely change your rant and go on about something else. This is laughable, you don't even reply people's post, everytime you have no answer you just change argument and subject.

And the deal with Wilt was that he never won anything as the leading scorer in the regular season and the playoffs. And that wasn't even my point, championships wasn't even my argument to start with and given that it's Wilt and that he's the same guy who choked away a ring from the FT-line I have my doubts about him as the main man on offense.

Read the post you replied to and answer the actual arguments, don't go on stupid rants about irrelevant stuff. I wrote a long post with actual arguments and you just replied to the last freaking sentence which is the least relevant part of it all.. :facepalm

[LAZERUSS]

Why are you completely avoiding every single point people make when they're discussing with you? When you have no answer you completely change your rant and go on about something else. This is laughable, you don't even reply people's post, everytime you have no answer you just change

And the deal with Wilt was that he never won anything as the leading scorer in the regular season nor the playoffs. And that wasn't even my point, championships wasn't even my argument to start with and given that it's Wilt and that he's the same guy who choked away a ring from the FT-line I have my doubts about him as the main man on offense.

Read the post you replied to and answer the actual arguments, don't go on stupid rants about irrelevant stuff. I wrote a long post with actual arguments and you just replied to the last freaking sentence which is the least relevant part of it all.. :facepalm

I have addressed your nonsense ad nauseum here. I answered your take on KAJ and Wilt. If Kareem were better than Wilt in '72 (and he wasn't), than there was NO QUESTION that a PRIME "scoring" Chamberlain was LIGHT YEARS better than his peers in the post-season.

Once again, a PRIME SCORING Chamberlain, in his first six post-seasons (and his teammates were so awful in 62-63 that he missed the playoffs in a year in which he averaged 45 ppg on .528 shooting)...in 52 post-season games (30 of which were against Russell and his swarming teammates)...AVERAGED 32.8 ppg, 26.3 rpg, 4.5 apg, probably 8+ bpg, and shot .505 from the field, in post-seasons that averaged .428 in that span. He had entire post-seasons of 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg. He had post-season series of 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and 38.7 ppg. He had five post-season series, just against Russell of 28.0 ppg, 29.2 ppg, 30.1 ppg, 30.1 ppg, and 33.6 ppg. Amd he had playoff games of 50, 50, 53, and 56 points, three of which were in "must-win" games (including one against Russell), as well as numerous 40+ point games.

A "scoring" Chamberlain (once again, didn't play in the post-season in 62-63, or you could add on to his numbers) outscored his opposing starting center in 50 of his 52 games. And even into his seventh post-season, he had outscored his opposing starting center in 64 of his 67 post-season games...and all while AVERAGING 30.4 pg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, shooting .515 from the field (in post-seasons that averaged .430)...and with probably a conservative 8+bpg. He AVERAGED a 30-27-5-8 .515...in 67 straight games. Give me a list of players and the number of games TOTAL, in the post-season, in which a player put up a SINGLE GAME of 30-27-5-8 .515. Wilt AVERAGED that over the course of 67 straight games!

Hell, a Wilt thru his first eight post-seasons, covering 80 games, outscored his opposng starting center in 73 of them. And the reality was, he was doing so by HUGE margins.

And as for "not winning anything" in his "scoring" seasons...you mean like leading the league in scoring, rebounding, and FG% in the SAME season, AND, also leading his TEAM to the BEST RECORD in the league in that same season? Give me the list of players who accomplished THAT feat.

[millwad]

I have addressed your nonsense ad nauseum here. I answered your take on KAJ and Wilt. If Kareem were better than Wilt in '72 (and he wasn't), than there was NO QUESTION that a PRIME "scoring" Chamberlain was LIGHT YEARS better than his peers in the post-season.

You answered a single irrelevant sentence and made it completely out of context.
You keep getting destroyed with your lies and then you just go on another rants. Kareem absolutely destroyed Wilt during the first 4 game, there's not even a single doubt about that, Wilt played better during the last 2, overall he got outplayed by Kareem.



Once again, a PRIME SCORING Chamberlain, in his five post-seasons (and his teammates were so awful in 62-63 that he missed the playoffs in a year in which he averaged 45 ppg on .528 shooting)...in 52 post-season games (30 of which were against Russell and his swarming teammates)...AVERAGED 32.8 ppg, 26.3 rpg, 4.5 apg, probably 8+ bpg, and shot .505 from the field, in post-seasons that averaged .428 in that span. He had entire post-seasons of 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg. He had post-season series of 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and 38.7 ppg. He had five post-season series, just against Russell of 28.0 ppg, 29.2 ppg, 30.1 ppg, 30.1 ppg, and 33.6 ppg. Amd he had playoff games of 50, 53, 53, and 56 points, three of which were in "must-win" games (including one against Russell), as well as numerous 40+ point games.

A "scoring" Chamberlain (once again, didn't play in the post-season in 62-63, or you could add on to his numbers) outscored his opposing starting center in 50 of his 52 games. And even into his sixth post-season, he had outscored his opposing starting center in 64 of his 67 post-season games...and all while AVERAGING 30.4 pg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, shooting .515 from the field (in post-seasons that averaged .430)...and with probably a conservative 8+bpg. He AVERAGED a 30-27-5-8 .515...in 67 straight games.

Hell, a Wilt thru his first seven post-seasons, covering 80 games, outscored his opposng starting center in 73 of them. And the reality was, he was doing so by HUGE margins.

What is your problem, I couldn't care less about your cherry picked stats and rants. Answer what your asked to reply. You're discussing against yourself. You don't actually reply to what people actually write, you cherry picked two single sentences from my two last posts and went on rants and both of them were stupid.

I ask you again, why is the cherry picked article right about the '72 series between Wilt and Kareem and why do you completely go against all media and Shaq himself regarding the '95 series? It's laughable, your only argument regarding the '72 series is that you have one article that describes the two last games of that series but when it comes to the '95 series you completely dissmiss the media and the players involved because it doesn't fit your agenda.

And why did you lie about the Celtic HOF:ers in '67? I wrote a post about All-star players and HOF-players, you reply with using two contributors in a discussion about actual players and nothing else. This is the cheap kind of stuff you do all the time. Why the hell would you mention contributors in the same argument when someone is talking about actual players?

[LAZERUSS]

And for those that honestly believe that Wilt was somehow a "choker"...


The idiotic Bill Simmons claims that Wilt "shrunk" in the post-season, particularly in BIG games.

Had he actually done any real research into Wilt's post-season career, he would have found that Wilt averaged 27.0 ppg in his 35 "must-win" and/or clinching games. Meanwhile, his starting opposing centers averaged 14.5 ppg in those 35 games. He also outscored his opposing starting center in 29 of those 35 games, including a 19-0 edge in his first 19 games of those 35. Furthermore, in his 13 games which came in his "scoring" seasons (from 59-60 thru 65-66), Chamberlain averaged 37.3 ppg in those "do-or-die" or clinching games. And there were MANY games in which he just CRUSHED his opposing centers in those games (e.g. he outscored Kerr in one them, 53-7.)

Wilt had THREE of his four 50+ point post-season games, in these "elimination games", including two in "at the limit" games, and another against Russell in a "must-win" game. He also had games of 46-34 and 45-27 (and only 4 months removed from major knee surgery) in these types of games. In addition he had games of 39 and 38 in clinching wins.

In the known 19 games in which we have both Wilt's, and his starting opposing center's rebounding numbers, Chamberlain outrebounded them in 15 of them, and by an average margin of 26.1 rpg to 18.9 rpg. And, had we had all 35 of the totals, it would have been by a considerably larger margin. A conservative estimate would put Wilt with at least a 30-5 overall edge in those 35 games. He also had games, even against the likes of Russell, and in "must-win" situations, where he just MURDERED his opposing centers (e.g. he had one clinching game, against Russell, in which he outrebounded him by a 36-21 margin.)

And finally, in the known FG% games in which we have, Chamberlain not only shot an eye-popping .582 in those "do-or-die" games, but he held his opposing centers to a combined .413 FG%. BTW, he played against Kareem in two "clinching" games, and held Abdul-Jabbar to a combined .383 shooting in those two games (23-60), while Wilt shot .545 (18-33) in those same two games.

The bottom line, in the known games of the 35 that Wilt played in that involved a "must-win" or clincher, Wilt averaged 27 ppg, 26.1 rpg, and shot .582 (and the 27 ppg figure was known for all 35 of those games.)

And once again, Chamberlain played in 11 games which went to the series limit (nine game seven's, one game five of a best-of-five series, and one game three of a best-of-three series), and all he did was average 29.9 ppg (outscoring his opposing center by a 29.9 ppg to 9.8 ppg margin in the process), with 26.7 rpg, and on .581 shooting. Or he was an eye-lash away from averaging a 30-27 game, and on nearly .600 shooting, in those 11 "at the limit" games.


Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain's TEAMs went 24-11 in those 35 games, too.

That was the same player that Simmons basically labeled a "loser", and a "choker", and who "shrunk" in his BIG games.

[millwad]

And for those that honestly believe that Wilt was somehow a "choker"...

Again you're discussing with yourself.

And yeah, Wilt was a choker..

Wilt's FT% in NBA Finals Game 7's

'69 - 4/13 (30.8%)
'70 - 1/11 (9.1%)

[K]

Wilt = The Greatest Center Ever
Wilt = Greatest Peek of All Time
Wilt = A Top 3 GOAT Player

:applause:

[K]

Again you're discussing with yourself.

And yeah, Wilt was a choker..

Wilt's FT% in NBA Finals Game 7's

'69 - 4/13 (30.8%)
'70 - 1/11 (9.1%)

Meh, he was a poor free throw shooter anyways. And even a "choking" Wilt is a player I'd rather have on my team than anyone else. As though that poor free throw shooting somehow invalidates everything else he does on the court.

[LAZERUSS]

You answered a single irrelevant sentence and made it completely out of context.
You keep getting destroyed with your lies and then you just go on another rants. Kareem absolutely destroyed Wilt during the first 4 game, there's not even a single doubt about that, Wilt played better during the last 2, overall he got outplayed by Kareem.



What is your problem, I couldn't care less about your cherry picked stats and rants. Answer what your asked to reply. You're discussing against yourself. You don't actually reply to what people actually write, you cherry picked two single sentences from my two last posts and went on rants and both of them were stupid.

I ask you again, why is the cherry picked article right about the '72 series between Wilt and Kareem and why do you completely go against all media and Shaq himself regarding the '95 series? It's laughable, your only argument regarding the '72 series is that you have one article that describes the two last games of that series but when it comes to the '95 series you completely dissmiss the media and the players involved because it doesn't fit your agenda.

And why did you lie about the Celtic HOF:ers in '67? I wrote a post about All-star players and HOF-players, you reply with using two contributors in a discussion about actual players and nothing else. This is the cheap kind of stuff you do all the time. Why the hell would you mention contributors in the same argument when someone is talking about actual players?

The '67 Celtics had SEVEN HOFers. I did not lie. And once again, anyone with any knowledge of that era, would tell you that Satch Sanders and KC Jones were among the best defenders at their positions. And Embry was a FIVE time all-star.

As for the '72 WCF's. we BOTH know that TIME MAGAZINE hailed Wilt as DECISIVELY "winning" the SERIES against Kareem. And yes, the MILWAUKEE press also claimed thatWilt outplayed Kareem in that series. An yes, MILWAUKEE's COACH claimed that "Wilt was the difference" in that series. BTW, while Wilt was reducing KAJ to just horrible shooting, he was completely shutting down the lane from Kareem's teammates, as well. He had a known 33 blocks, in four of those games (15 against KAJ.)

As for the '95 Finals...the numbers don't lie. Shaq buried Hakeem..plain-and-simple. Unlike Kareem, who couldn't hit a shot to save his life against Wilt in the '72 WCF's, Shaq shot couldn't miss against Hakeem (outshooting Hakeem the shot-jacker by a .595 to .483 margin.) And, as we KNOW, in their "one-on-one" battles in that series, Shaq just abused Hakeem.

For those that did not see the '95 Finals...

And thanks to Colts18 who took the time to post what we all saw...


I decided to rewatch the 1995 finals and chart each possession to see to how effective Shaq and Hakeem were on the court. A special shout out to Jordanbulls for providing the video of this series


Total:
Hakeem: 253 touches, 140 doubles (55.3%)
Shaq: 221 touches, 146 doubles (66.1%)

Here are their stats when they were guarded by each other:
Shaq 32-57 (56.1 FG%), 6-8 FT, 67.3 double teamed%, .578 TS%, 17 assists, 1 O-reb allowed to Hakeem
Hakeem: 31-75 (41.3 FG%), 9-13 FT, 60.2 double teamed%, .446 TS%, 8 assists, 3 O-reb allowed to Shaq

Shaq blocked 2 Hakeem shots, Hakeem blocked 0 Shaq shots. Hakeem did make a 3P on Shaq. Hakeem guarded Shaq on 73.3% of the touches he had, while Shaq guarded Hakeem on 69.6% of his touches. Hakeem got a lot more fastbreak touches than Shaq so in the halfcourt, they guarded each other about even.

When they weren't being guarded by each other, Shaq was being guarded by Charles Jones and Hakeem by Horace Grant.

Shaq vs Jones: 7-11 FG (63.6 FG%), 35 doubles in 52 touches (67.3%), 2 assists
Hakeem vs Grant: 13-24 (54.2 FG%), 33 double teams in 58 touches (56.9%), 6 assists

Jump shots:
Hakeem: 27-62 (43.5%)
Shaq: 2-7 (28.6%)

The vast majority of Shaq's shots were close range hooks.

Dunks:
Hakeem: 1 dunk (vs grant)
Shaq: 9 dunks (2 of them were in Hakeem's face)

Fouls drawn on offense:
Shaq: 37 (17 on Hakeem)
Hakeem: 21 (9 on Shaq)

Hakeem did draw 4 Shaq charges.

Shaq was called for 5 travels, Hakeem 2.

Plus/Minus (Houston outscored Orlando by 28 points total):
On court:
Shaq: -12 in 180 minutes
Hakeem: +17 in 179 minutes

Off court:
Shaq: -16 in 16:37 of action (Houston scored 133 points per 48 in the minutes Shaq missed)
Hakeem: +11 in 17:11 of action (134 points per 48 in the minutes he was off the court)

Interestingly enough, in 2 of the games, the Magic outscored the Rockets when Shaq was on the court. The magic were -8 in about 9 minutes of action without Shaq in game (lost by just 2 points). In game 3, they were -4 in the minutes Shaq missed in a game where they lost by 3 points. In game 1, the Rockets outscored the magic by 9 in the minutes Hakeem missed, but they were outscored by a combined 4 points in games 3 and 4 without Hakeem.

Observations:
-Orlando was for some reason really committed to doubling Hakeem in game 1. They were throwing a lot of hard doubles. Hakeem had 5 assists in that game, all of them 3 pointers, 4 came off of doubles (one was a triple team). I'm guessing it was a response to Hakeem's series vs Robinson. For the rest of the series, Orlando didn't double Hakeem as much and they threw softer doubles.

-Hakeem made like 5 or 6 baskets in transition to Shaq's 1 or so. So while Shaq didn't get credit for giving up those buckets since he didn't guard, a few of those times Shaq was slow in transition. Shaq got about 3 or shots

-One of the commentators compared Horry to Scottie Pippen and Walton took the comment seriously. They are vastly different players IMO

-I'm not sure why Penny wasn't more aggressive. Kenny Smith couldn't guard him at all. When Penny did drive to the basket, he made a few shots over Hakeem.

-Drexler was the man in this series. He really wanted to get his first title badly. For some reason, people rarely talk about him despite him getting more WS than Hakeem in that playoff run

-It's fashionable these days to **** on Hakeem's cast in 94, but this cast was much better than that one. The guards outplayed Orlando's guards. Horry played really well. The 3P shooters benefited a lot from the shortened 3P line.

-Contrary to popular belief, handchecking wasn't allowed in 95. The refs called like 2 handchecking fouls in this series

-I'm so thankful the NBA got rid of the illegal defense. The refs called like 5 of them in each game. It destroyed the flow of the game and limited the ways you could double team a player.

Furthermore, Shaq had a TS% of .589 in that series while Hakeem was at .508, in a post-season NBA that shot .541. And, Hakeem's TEAMMATES had an unbelievable TS% of .590 in that series. Hakeem's TEAMMATES just wiped the floor with Shaq's. Furthermore, take away Shaq's and Hakeem's MADE FTs, and Hakeem's TEAMMATES outscored Shaq's by 40 points? Considering that Houston collectively outscored Orlando by a TOTAL of 28 points...well, just another example of what REALLY transpired in that series.

[LAZERUSS]

Again you're discussing with yourself.

And yeah, Wilt was a choker..

Wilt's FT% in NBA Finals Game 7's

'69 - 4/13 (30.8%)
'70 - 1/11 (9.1%)

How about this...

In that game seven of the '69 Finals, Wilt shot 7-8 from the floor, while his teammates collectively shot 32-89, or .360. Meanwhile, Russell shot 2-7 from the field, while his teammates collectively shot 42-88, or .477...in a TWO point loss.

As for game seven of the '70 Finals...Wilt went 1-8 from the line in the first half...in a game in which his TEAM trailed 69-42 at halftime. Incidently, he shot 50% from the field in that first half, while his teammtes collectively shot .333.

In any case, his poor FT shooting in game seven of the '70 Finals had NO effect on the outcome whatsoever.

Oh, and BTW, that was the ONLY post-season ending game, in which his TEAMs lost, in Wilt's 13 post-seasons, that was decided by more than eight points. I have already provided Kobe's last post-season games in each of his post-seasons, and there has probably never been another all-time "great" who was so thoroughly trashed in so many of them.

The reality was...it was WILT who was keepig his teams in those games. And, as I have already shown MANY times, his teammates repeatedly puked all over themselves in those losses.

[LAZERUSS]

I know that people hate walls of text, but what they show is that when other legends are subject to the same level of scrutiny, they lose quite a bit of their magic - many had easily as many failures and question-marks. You can pull all the "Wilt failures" cards you want, just be prepared when someone creates a similar avalanche involving your own personal favorite(s).

This isn't written necessarily in order to prop everything that Lazer writes (I don't agree with everything after all), but in order to show that I'm not as annoyed as I "should" be in such a case (plus, I'm among those who do read walls of text, and, if necessary, take my time to bring them down).
When it comes to Wilt, after all, this board wasn't any better before Lazeruss, negative Wilt myths and stories still abounded the board, but since Wilt wasn't such a popular topic, even people called haters today were just having toned down discussions, while (most of them) still shared the same/equally negative views with today.

Obviously KAJ, Bird, MJ, and the other's were great players. But, as you know, in these "Wilt GOAT" discussions, it is ONLY WILT's "failures" that repeatedly brought up...what very few he had.

And there was no doubt that KAJ, Bird, Kobe, and the other's had more "choke jos" than Chamberlain did. But the DOUBLE STANDARD is just ridiculous. I have mentioned it before, but posters jump to Bird's defense with Bird's supposed injuries, or injuries to his teammates, but they never acknowledge Wilt's injuries (or the fact that he played nearly every minute of evey game with them), or injuries to his teammates (especially in the '68 EDF's when HALF of his quality supporting cast was injured.)

Or those that blame Wilt for his TEAM's lack of talent and success. The "Wilt-bashers" are quick to point out that Chamberlain's '61 team was swept by a losing team in the first round of the playoffs (Wilt's ONLY first round loss...sorry but his '66 Sixers were in the EDF's)...in a series in which Chamberlain just murdered the Syracuse frontline (including 7-3 Swede Halbrook) to the tune of a 37-23 series. BUT, how about Kareem in the first round of the '81 playoffs...when his 54-28 Lakers were dropped by the 40-42 Rockets? Moses just waxed Kareem in that series (including holding KAJ to a .462 FG%.) How come THAT is never mentioned in these discussions?

Or that Bird, playing with HOF-laden rosters his entire career, lost SEVEN times with HCA, including a 4-0 sweep in one of them?

Or that Kobe absolutely choked in '04 and '08? Or that Shaq was swept SIX times? Or that MJ was 1-9 in his first 10 playoff games, and didn't win anything until he was surrounded by quality rosters Or that Hakeem couldn't get past the first round in over HALF of his post-season career, and in most of those EIGHT first round losses, his team's were blown out?

And Russell gets a "free pass" because his TEAMMATES just overwhelmed Wilt's teammates, and still, Wilt nearly carried his teams to FOUR wins in those eight playoff h2h's. And that Chamberlain repeatedly pasted Russell in their h2h battles, and when Wilt finally had an equal roster, that was healthy, and played to their capabilities, that his team destroyed Russell's...in a series in which, always, Chamberlain pounded Russell h2h. The reality was, had Wilt and Russell swapped rosters in their ten seasons in the league together, there is a strong possibility that it would have been Wilt holding a 9-1 edge in rings in that period. And even if it had "only" been, say, 6-3, would there be ay question as to who the real GOAT was?

[julizaver]

To my knowledge, Wilt had 42 blocks during the first 4 games, then 13 in game 5 and 6 in game 6 = 61 blocks in 6 Finals games, 10.2 avg

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

But do you have the source. These numbers are from nba.stats site ?

[millwad]

The '67 Celtics had SEVEN HOFers. I did not lie. And once again, anyone with any knowledge of that era, would tell you that Satch Sanders and KC Jones were among the best defenders at their positions. And Embry was a FIVE time all-star.

Don't be an ass wipe, I wasn't writing about HOF contributors, you are well aware of the fact that I was mentioning HOF players. This is just one of many tries from you to hype up Wilt's competition. It's laughable that you'd mention "HOF contributors" when someone is discussing actual players.

And I just showed you that Sanders, Jones and Embry were scrubs in '67. And what's funny is that you were damn quick to mention that Costello wasn't an all-star in '67 but then you're so dirty that you label Embry and Sanders as HOF:ers without a mention that they weren't in the HOF as player but as contributors. You're pathetic.



As for the '72 WCF's. we BOTH know that TIME MAGAZINE hailed Wilt as DECISIVELY "winning" the SERIES against Kareem. And yes, the MILWAUKEE press also claimed thatWilt outplayed Kareem in that series. An yes, MILWAUKEE's COACH claimed that "Wilt was the difference" in that series. BTW, while Wilt was reducing KAJ to just horrible shooting, he was completely shutting down the lane from Kareem's teammates, as well. He had a known 33 blocks, in four of those games (15 against KAJ.)

It describes the last two games of the series, not the whole series and Kareem murdered Wilt in the first 4 games. And you can't use Kareem's FG% as something negative because Wilt even shot with worse FG%. And haha, I still remember when you lied about Wilt blocking "20 skyhooks".. :facepalm

Kareem even outrebounded Wilt in 3 of those games..



As for the '95 Finals...the numbers don't lie. Shaq buried Hakeem..plain-and-simple. Unlike Kareem, who couldn't hit a shot to save his life against Wilt in the '72 WCF's, Shaq shot couldn't miss against Hakeem (outshooting Hakeem the shot-jacker by a .595 to .483 margin.) And, as we KNOW, in their "one-on-one" battles in that series, Shaq just abused Hakeem.


For those that did not see the '95 Finals...

And thanks to Colts18 who took the time to post what we all saw...


Again, you're not replying to what you're supposed to reply to. Your only proof about the '72 series are cherry picked articles that describes the last two games of the series. But then we have the '95 finals were Olajuwon swept Shaq's butt, a series were Shaq averaged the most TO's per game in NBA finals history for a center and still you're so butthurt that you go against all media in a try to give the edge to Shaq. So all media is wrong according to you and so is Shaq himself who said that he was outplayed. You're pathetic.



Furthermore, Shaq had a TS% of .589 in that series while Hakeem was at .508, in a post-season NBA that shot .541. And, Hakeem's TEAMMATES had an unbelievable TS% of .590 in that series. Hakeem's TEAMMATES just wiped the floor with Shaq's. Furthermore, take away Shaq's and Hakeem's MADE FTs, and Hakeem's TEAMMATES outscored Shaq's by 40 points? Considering that Houston collectively outscored Orlando by a TOTAL of 28 points...well, just another example of what REALLY transpired in that series.

Haha, this is just getting funnier.
So Wilt's teammates didn't "wipe" Kareem's in the '72 series when they made up for Wilt getting outscored with 23 points per game and outshot and outassisted.

It's funny, you mention that Hakeem's teammates outscoring Shaq's with a total of 40 points. Wilt's teammates had to make up for 23 points PER GAME which was the same number Kareem outscored Wilt with.. per game.

And we know you didn't see the series, you couldn't break down the series at all, you got mocked and clowned when you tried to do so. Hakeem got the best of Shaq in that series.

Now tell us, why do you go against the media in a series where everyone gives the edge to Hakeem?

[millwad]

How about this...

In that game seven of the '69 Finals, Wilt shot 7-8 from the floor, while his teammates collectively shot 32-89, or .360. Meanwhile, Russell shot 2-7 from the field, while his teammates collectively shot 42-88, or .477...in a TWO point loss./QUOTE]

Haha, again you blame his teammates. Wilt was the worst shooting big man of all-time, him choking from the FT-line cost him at least one ring which is beyond pathetic.

Game 4 of the '69 finals the Lakers and Wilt lost with 1 point against the Celtics, Wilt choked big time from the FT-line and only made 2 out of 11 FT's.

In game 7 of the '69 finals the Lakers and Wilt lost with 2 points against the Celtics, Wilt in that game only made 4 out of 13 FT's.

That's just beyond pathetic, you just can't blame that on others like you always do. That's a massive choking jobb, Wilt choking from the FT-line cost him a ring.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]
As for game seven of the '70 Finals...Wilt went 1-8 from the line in the first half...in a game in which his TEAM trailed 69-42 at halftime. Incidently, he shot 50% from the field in that first half, while his teammtes collectively shot .333.

In any case, his poor FT shooting in game seven of the '70 Finals had NO effect on the outcome whatsoever.
/QUOTE]

It's a great indication about him being a choker.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]
Oh, and BTW, that was the ONLY post-season ending game, in which his TEAMs lost, in Wilt's 13 post-seasons, that was decided by more than eight points. I have already provided Kobe's last post-season games in each of his post-seasons, and there has probably never been another all-time "great" who was so thoroughly trashed in so many of them.

The reality was...it was WILT who was keepig his teams in those games. And, as I have already shown MANY times, his teammates repeatedly puked all over themselves in those losses.

I am sure we would find plenty of choking jobs from Wilt during those seasons from Wilt and the FT-line. The guy choked badly from the FT-line in the finals and it cost him at least one ring, I am sure he choked big time in other stages as well.

Biggest choker of all-time.

[julizaver]

[/QUOTE]

I am sure we would find plenty of choking jobs from Wilt during those seasons from Wilt and the FT-line. The guy choked badly from the FT-line in the finals and it cost him at least one ring, I am sure he choked big time in other stages as well.

Biggest choker of all-time.[/QUOTE]

We ? Are you going to make a research about it ? You are gonna become an "sad old man reading old articles" as you described me in another thread ? :lol

Is Millwad a top 10 ISH hater of all-time ?

Yes, the guy is holding all the records in the haters book. He created a thread about the death of Jlauber, he post a picture of a fat boy saying that this is Lazer's fat son, mentioning his wife and so on.

He always try to hurt people, trying to prove how smart he is, BUT hiding the obvious fact that he is the one who needs help.

[millwad]

I am sure we would find plenty of choking jobs from Wilt during those seasons from Wilt and the FT-line. The guy choked badly from the FT-line in the finals and it cost him at least one ring, I am sure he choked big time in other stages as well.

Biggest choker of all-time.

We ? Are you going to make a research about it ? You are gonna become an "sad old man reading old articles" as you described me in another thread ? :lol

Is Millwad a top 10 ISH hater of all-time ?


Yes, the guy is holding all the records in the haters book. He created a thread about the death of Jlauber, he post a picture of a fat boy saying that this is Lazer's fat son, mentioning his wife and so on.

He always try to heart people, trying to prove how smart he is, BUT hiding the obvious fact that he is the one who needs help.

The fat boy is Jlauber's son, nice of you to call him "fat".

And I got the info from a poster from PCactivesports or something, a site where Jlauber is active at as far as I know.

"Heart" people? You're a retarded person. I am hope I don't "heart" your feelings now.

[julizaver]

"Heart" people? You're a retarded person. I am hope I don't "heart" your feelings now.


I mean "hurt". BUT it does not change the fact that you are Top 10 Hater of all-time.
Dont't worry about my feelings, I am not living in ISH.

[Lakers Legend#32]

The greatest center of all-time is in the top 5.

[Haks]

Not when you are the worst finals performer of all time all time greats standard.

[Greg Oden 50]

The fat boy is Jlauber's son, nice of you to call him "fat".

And I got the info from a poster from PCactivesports or something, a site where Jlauber is active at as far as I know.

"Heart" people? You're a retarded person. I am hope I don't "heart" your feelings now.

WILT'S HATER NUFF SAID

[Psileas]

Not when you are the worst finals performer of all time all time greats standard.

-Oscar Robertson
-LeBron James
-Kobe Bryant
-(arguably) Larry Bird

None of them have been any better Finals performers.

[Haks]

-Oscar Robertson
-LeBron James
-Kobe Bryant
-(arguably) Larry Bird

None of them have been any better Finals performers.
Lebron Kobe and Bird all are better finals performers. When your PPG drops by like 12 in the finals than in the regular whilst these players it only drops by a max of 6 and same as Wilt 5-10% efficiency

[Johnny Jones]

Lebron Kobe and Bird all are better finals performers. When your PPG drops by like 12 in the finals than in the regular whilst these players it only drops by a max of 6 and same as Wilt 5-10% efficiency
ETHER :applause: :bowdown:

[OldSkoolball#52]

How, is this out of spite or are you going to back up this claim. I can tell you this
Kobe Bryant
5x Champion
2x finals MVP
1x MVP
More all nba 1st teams and much more productive in his latter years of his career.

The only thing KG has on Kobe is DPOY, KG for too long shot too many jumpers and did not take over in the post like he could have.


Championships are not an individual achievement for all you bozos out there.

[Psileas]

Lebron Kobe and Bird all are better finals performers. When your PPG drops by like 12 in the finals than in the regular whilst these players it only drops by a max of 6 and same as Wilt 5-10% efficiency


ETHER


So, James Worthy, whose numbers increased during the Finals, was a better performer than all of them. Brilliant...:applause: :oldlol:

[Haks]

So, James Worthy, whose numbers increased during the Finals, was a better performer than all of them. Brilliant...:applause: :oldlol:
Talking about All time greats but I guess arguing facts are hard

[Psileas]

Talking about All time greats but I guess arguing facts are hard

Worthy is an All-Time great, and even if you didn't consider him one, I now proved to you, using your own "logic", that he is. Because, somehow, stats' increase/decrease in the Finals is for you more important than the stats themselves.
So, going back to the others, never mind that Kobe has never had a single Finals series as dominant as Wilt in 1964 or 1967. Never mind that prime Wilt never came close to prime LeBron's epic collapse in the 2011 Finals. If Wilt had a bigger drop (and only at points, that is), he must have been a worse performer...
BTW, when the heck did Wilt drop by 12 ppg in the Finals? Nice try making up numbers. And nice try conveniently leaving out Oscar Robertson, who I also mentioned. Oh, wait, maybe Oscar wasn't an All-Time great either, right?

[The-Legend-24]

I've seen people place him as high as 2. :oldlol:

Dude is a borderline top 10 player.

[Gwin631]

[QUOTE=OldSkoolball#52]Championships are not an individual achievement for all you bozos out there.[/QUOTE
Oh my bad, I guess winning a championship isn't that important anymore. :biggums:

[Psileas]

I've seen people place him as high as 2.

Dude is a borderline top 10 player.

Wrong, people place him as high as 1, and you probably can't explain your last claim either.

[LAZERUSS]

[QUOTE=OldSkoolball#52]Championships are not an individual achievement for all you bozos out there.[/QUOTE

Oh my bad, I guess winning a championship isn't that important anymore. :biggums:

I agree. That's why Jordan can't be the GOAT. How many titles did he win before Pippen arrived? Absolutely zero. In fact, he couldn't get past the first round in his first three, and repeatedly choked against the Pistons. Obviously Bird was the better player in the 85-86 season. Why? Because he single-handedly beat MJ, 3-0, in that series, and in fact, held a 6-0 edge against him in the post-season. The 93-94 Bulls went 55-27 without Jordan, and couldn't get any farther in the post-season the next year with him. MJ played on FIVE losing teams in his career. Take Pippen away, and he was just another loser.No way can he claim to a be a GOAT.

Kareem? This is truly laughable. All he ever was in his entire career was a sidekick. How do I know that? His Bucks didn't win a title until Oscar arrived. They went 66-16, 63-19, 60-22, and 59-23 with Oscar. What happend the year after Oscar retired? Milwaukee fell to 38-44. The Bucks quickly shipped the loser out to LA. How did that work out. The Lakers went 40-42, and missed the playoffs. In fact, they wouldn't sniff a title, even with the most stacked rosters in the league, until Magic arrived. In his first Finals with Magic, KAJ sheepishly took a game off, figuring that he would once again choke, and of course, Magic carried them to a title-clinching victory without him. He quickly settled into his Robin role, and despite some poor post-season play on his part, he was able to get five more rings while Magic carried those Laker teams. And in his last title, the lakers won a ttile DESPITE him.

Bird? He could only win three titles with HOF-laden rosters. And how about those three titles? He was simply awful in the first one. His teammates had to overcome his pathtic shooting to barely beat a 40-42 Rockets team with just one great player and cast of misfits. In his second title, even he admitted that his team should have been swept by Magic's Lakers. Had LA not given away games two and four in that series, he would have had one less ring, and one more sweeping playoff loss on his resume. And his supposedly great 85-86 Celtic team struggled to beat a 54-28 Rockets team in the Finals. The rest of his playoff career was summed up by SEVEN losses with HCA, including a 4-0 sweep in one.

Kobe? How "great" was Kobe after Shaq left? He could only "carry" his Lakers to a 34-48 record. He was part of the most lopsided losses in big games of any supposed "GOAT" candidate. And there was no question he was the worst shooting "GOAT" candidate in Finals history.

Shaq? How could the "MDE" be part of SIX sweeping playoff losses? Hell, he was losing to huge underdogs, and played miserably in another near sweep against Greg Ostertag forcryingoutloud.

Hakeem? Hilarious. The man couldn't get past the first round in over half of his long career. And in the majority of those, his teams were shelled. He finally was part of two title teams, but even those were "tainted." IN his first title run, the best player in the game took the year off, and Hakeem's Rockets barely beat an inferior Knicks team for the title (the same Knicks team that a Jordanless Bulls team nearly beat in a seven game series.) And in his second title, his teammates overcame his crushing beatdown by Shaq in the '95 Finals. The man was an epitome of a LOSER.

So, there can be NO excuses. How come these supposed greats couldn't INDIVIDUALLY carry their teams to titles?

.

[LAZERUSS]

Wrong, people place him as high as 1, and you probably can't explain your last claim either.

Exactly...

And...find another player in NBA history who can match these achievements...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Wilt_Chamberlain

[LAZERUSS]

If RINGS are THE most important criteria...

How come Havlicek is not rated higher. He was arguably the most important player on two of his title teams ('74 and '76), as well as a FMVP in one of them ('74.) And he probably had a strong case for FMVP in '68 had the award existed.

Then, he went to SIX other Finals, and was a KEY contributor in the bulk of them. All told... an 8-0 record his Finals, and EIGHT rings.

And if Wilt gets penalized for lack of rings, at least he went to a total of SIX Finals, and lost to the eventual champion TEN times (and FIVE times in game sevens, including FOUR by a combined margin of nine points.)

I would say that, at the very least, Hondo clearly has a better "winning" resume than Kobe and Hakeem.

[tpols]

If RINGS are THE most important criteria...

How come Havlicek is not rated higher. He was arguably the most important player on two of his title teams ('74 and '76), as well as a FMVP in one of them ('74.) And he probably had a strong case for FMVP in '68 had the award existed.

Then, he went to SIX other Finals, and was a KEY contributor in the bulk of them. All told... an 8-0 record his Finals, and EIGHT rings.

And if Wilt gets penalized for lack of rings, at least he went to a total of SIX Finals, and lost to the eventual champion TEN times (and FIVE times in game sevens, including FOUR by a combined margin of nine points.)

I would say that, at the very least, Hondo clearly has a better "winning" resume than Kobe and Hakeem.
Because he was a sidekick for 90 percent of them? If Hakeem didn't have his repeat he would've never sniffed top ten. If kobe hadn't proven himself as the leader of a team that won the west three times in a row and back to back rings he would have a similar sidekick rep like Hondo.. But he had just as much success as a first option as he did as a second

[millwad]

I agree. That's why Jordan can't be the GOAT. How many titles did he win before Pippen arrived? Absolutely zero. In fact, he couldn't get past the first round in his first three, and repeatedly choked against the Pistons. Obviously Bird was the better player in the 85-86 season. Why? Because he single-handedly beat MJ, 3-0, in that series, and in fact, held a 6-0 edge against him in the post-season. The 93-94 Bulls went 55-27 without Jordan, and couldn't get any farther in the post-season the next year with him. MJ played on FIVE losing teams in his career. Take Pippen away, and he was just another loser.No way can he claim to a be a GOAT.


This is laughable, Jordan is the GOAT. He raised his game in the playoffs and he dominated like no one else. And no, Wilt didn't dominate like Jordan, Jordan won while dominating like crazy in the playoffs. Wilt won while letting others do the scoring and he won only twice even though he played with multiple HOF:ers and All-stars.


Kareem? This is truly laughable. All he ever was in his entire career was a sidekick. How do I know that? His Bucks didn't win a title until Oscar arrived. They went 66-16, 63-19, 60-22, and 59-23 with Oscar. What happend the year after Oscar retired? Milwaukee fell to 38-44. The Bucks quickly shipped the loser out to LA. How did that work out. The Lakers went 40-42, and missed the playoffs. In fact, they wouldn't sniff a title, even with the most stacked rosters in the league, until Magic arrived. In his first Finals with Magic, KAJ sheepishly took a game off, figuring that he would once again choke, and of course, Magic carried them to a title-clinching victory without him. He quickly settled into his Robin role, and despite some poor post-season play on his part, he was able to get five more rings while Magic carried those Laker teams. And in his last title, the lakers won a ttile DESPITE him.


Yeah, he was such a "sidekick" when he completely dominated and won his first ring. You want a sidekick champ? Wilt.



Bird? He could only win three titles with HOF-laden rosters. And how about those three titles? He was simply awful in the first one. His teammates had to overcome his pathtic shooting to barely beat a 40-42 Rockets team with just one great player and cast of misfits. In his second title, even he admitted that his team should have been swept by Magic's Lakers. Had LA not given away games two and four in that series, he would have had one less ring, and one more sweeping playoff loss on his resume. And his supposedly great 85-86 Celtic team struggled to beat a 54-28 Rockets team in the Finals. The rest of his playoff career was summed up by SEVEN losses with HCA, including a 4-0 sweep in one.


Bird faced the showtime Lakers all the time during his prime. Unlike Wilt, Bird won 3 titles while being amazing, not like Wilt who gave up the scoring and who got outscored with 23 points per game by Kareem in a year which he got his 2nd title.. :faceplam



Kobe? How "great" was Kobe after Shaq left? He could only "carry" his Lakers to a 34-48 record. He was part of the most lopsided losses in big games of any supposed "GOAT" candidate. And there was no question he was the worst shooting "GOAT" candidate in Finals history.

Such a hypocrite, you cry like a baby over Wilt's HOF and All-star teammates but you bash Kobe for not being to be able to win while having beyond horrible teammates. You bash the likes of Jerry West, Hal Greer, Chet Walkers and Gail Goodrich for their "poor" play but obviously you couldn't care less that Kobe played with Smush Parker and Mihm.



Shaq? How could the "MDE" be part of SIX sweeping playoff losses? Hell, he was losing to huge underdogs, and played miserably in another near sweep against Greg Ostertag forcryingoutloud.


Which where these so called "huge underdogs" which Shaq lost against? Shaq was triple teamed like crazy and even though the opposing centers often were terrible it didn't mean shit because he was swarmed and not faced one against one like Wilt.



Hakeem? Hilarious. The man couldn't get past the first round in over half of his long career. And in the majority of those, his teams were shelled. He finally was part of two title teams, but even those were "tainted." IN his first title run, the best player in the game took the year off, and Hakeem's Rockets barely beat an inferior Knicks team for the title (the same Knicks team that a Jordanless Bulls team nearly beat in a seven game series.) And in his second title, his teammates overcame his crushing beatdown by Shaq in the '95 Finals. The man was an epitome of a LOSER.


Yeah, Hakeem's titles is so "tainted". After all, he only had to face 3 out of the top 10 centers and he only had to face two out of the 3 best PF's of all-time twice during his back to backs. And after all, the rest of the guys he had to face "sucked", guys like Stockton, Hardaway, KJ, Drexler etc..

And don't try using the Knicks as an example, the same Knick team took it to game 7 against Jordan earlier in his career. And still you claim that Olajuwon faced a "crushing beatdown" by Shaq. You're nothing but a clown, your mother is a true whore and your obsession has made you the worst poster of ISH history. We have trolls but they are quickly noticed, you on the other side bash and make up stories all the time, you're up to revisionist history and it's shameful of you. You are the same guy who claimed that Wilt "MURDERED" Kareem in a series where Kareem outscored Wilt with 23 points per game on better FG% and assist numbers. Your only argument is that the media said so (which they really didn't) and now you're going against every single media outlet and Shaq himself when you claim that Olajuwon faced a "crushing beatdown). You're a clown.


So, there can be NO excuses. How come these supposed greats couldn't INDIVIDUALLY carry their teams to titles?

.

You just wrote a pile of crap, full of misinformation and made up crap. Go **** yourself.

[millwad]

If RINGS are THE most important criteria...

How come Havlicek is not rated higher. He was arguably the most important player on two of his title teams ('74 and '76), as well as a FMVP in one of them ('74.) And he probably had a strong case for FMVP in '68 had the award existed.

Then, he went to SIX other Finals, and was a KEY contributor in the bulk of them. All told... an 8-0 record his Finals, and EIGHT rings.

And if Wilt gets penalized for lack of rings, at least he went to a total of SIX Finals, and lost to the eventual champion TEN times (and FIVE times in game sevens, including FOUR by a combined margin of nine points.)

I would say that, at the very least, Hondo clearly has a better "winning" resume than Kobe and Hakeem.

Great that you mentioned Hendo, now we have yet another player who wasn't a choker like Wilt.

Now we have Hendo ahead of Wilt as well, thanks for the reminding us about the fact that he belongs in the list and that he's better than Wilt

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Damn Millwad going ham! Good posts, dawg :pimp:

[Deuce Bigalow]

I agree. That's why Jordan can't be the GOAT. How many titles did he win before Pippen arrived? Absolutely zero. In fact, he couldn't get past the first round in his first three, and repeatedly choked against the Pistons. Obviously Bird was the better player in the 85-86 season. Why? Because he single-handedly beat MJ, 3-0, in that series, and in fact, held a 6-0 edge against him in the post-season. The 93-94 Bulls went 55-27 without Jordan, and couldn't get any farther in the post-season the next year with him. MJ played on FIVE losing teams in his career. Take Pippen away, and he was just another loser.No way can he claim to a be a GOAT.

Kareem? This is truly laughable. All he ever was in his entire career was a sidekick. How do I know that? His Bucks didn't win a title until Oscar arrived. They went 66-16, 63-19, 60-22, and 59-23 with Oscar. What happend the year after Oscar retired? Milwaukee fell to 38-44. The Bucks quickly shipped the loser out to LA. How did that work out. The Lakers went 40-42, and missed the playoffs. In fact, they wouldn't sniff a title, even with the most stacked rosters in the league, until Magic arrived. In his first Finals with Magic, KAJ sheepishly took a game off, figuring that he would once again choke, and of course, Magic carried them to a title-clinching victory without him. He quickly settled into his Robin role, and despite some poor post-season play on his part, he was able to get five more rings while Magic carried those Laker teams. And in his last title, the lakers won a ttile DESPITE him.

Bird? He could only win three titles with HOF-laden rosters. And how about those three titles? He was simply awful in the first one. His teammates had to overcome his pathtic shooting to barely beat a 40-42 Rockets team with just one great player and cast of misfits. In his second title, even he admitted that his team should have been swept by Magic's Lakers. Had LA not given away games two and four in that series, he would have had one less ring, and one more sweeping playoff loss on his resume. And his supposedly great 85-86 Celtic team struggled to beat a 54-28 Rockets team in the Finals. The rest of his playoff career was summed up by SEVEN losses with HCA, including a 4-0 sweep in one.

Kobe? How "great" was Kobe after Shaq left? He could only "carry" his Lakers to a 34-48 record. He was part of the most lopsided losses in big games of any supposed "GOAT" candidate. And there was no question he was the worst shooting "GOAT" candidate in Finals history.

Shaq? How could the "MDE" be part of SIX sweeping playoff losses? Hell, he was losing to huge underdogs, and played miserably in another near sweep against Greg Ostertag forcryingoutloud.

Hakeem? Hilarious. The man couldn't get past the first round in over half of his long career. And in the majority of those, his teams were shelled. He finally was part of two title teams, but even those were "tainted." IN his first title run, the best player in the game took the year off, and Hakeem's Rockets barely beat an inferior Knicks team for the title (the same Knicks team that a Jordanless Bulls team nearly beat in a seven game series.) And in his second title, his teammates overcame his crushing beatdown by Shaq in the '95 Finals. The man was an epitome of a LOSER.

So, there can be NO excuses. How come these supposed greats couldn't INDIVIDUALLY carry their teams to titles?

.
Jordan: 6
Kareem: 6
Bird: 3
Kobe: 5
Shaq: 4

Wilt: 2

[TonyMontana]

Jordan: 6
Kareem: 6
Bird: 3
Kobe: 5
Shaq: 4

Wilt: 2

Robert Horry: 7

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Robert Horry: 7

Robert Horry isn't a franchise player.

[TonyMontana]

Robert Horry isn't a franchise player.

But apparently Kobes 15 PPG and 36% shooting in the 2000 Finals is enough for "franchise player"?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

But apparently Kobes 15 PPG and 36% shooting in the 2000 Finals is enough for "franchise player"?

http://theurbandaily.com/2012/09/20/jalen-rose-confessed-purposely-injured-kobe-bryant-nba-playoffs/

[SHAQisGOAT]

I agree. That's why Jordan can't be the GOAT. How many titles did he win before Pippen arrived? Absolutely zero. In fact, he couldn't get past the first round in his first three, and repeatedly choked against the Pistons. Obviously Bird was the better player in the 85-86 season. Why? Because he single-handedly beat MJ, 3-0, in that series, and in fact, held a 6-0 edge against him in the post-season. The 93-94 Bulls went 55-27 without Jordan, and couldn't get any farther in the post-season the next year with him. MJ played on FIVE losing teams in his career. Take Pippen away, and he was just another loser.No way can he claim to a be a GOAT.

Kareem? This is truly laughable. All he ever was in his entire career was a sidekick. How do I know that? His Bucks didn't win a title until Oscar arrived. They went 66-16, 63-19, 60-22, and 59-23 with Oscar. What happend the year after Oscar retired? Milwaukee fell to 38-44. The Bucks quickly shipped the loser out to LA. How did that work out. The Lakers went 40-42, and missed the playoffs. In fact, they wouldn't sniff a title, even with the most stacked rosters in the league, until Magic arrived. In his first Finals with Magic, KAJ sheepishly took a game off, figuring that he would once again choke, and of course, Magic carried them to a title-clinching victory without him. He quickly settled into his Robin role, and despite some poor post-season play on his part, he was able to get five more rings while Magic carried those Laker teams. And in his last title, the lakers won a ttile DESPITE him.

Bird? He could only win three titles with HOF-laden rosters. And how about those three titles? He was simply awful in the first one. His teammates had to overcome his pathtic shooting to barely beat a 40-42 Rockets team with just one great player and cast of misfits. In his second title, even he admitted that his team should have been swept by Magic's Lakers. Had LA not given away games two and four in that series, he would have had one less ring, and one more sweeping playoff loss on his resume. And his supposedly great 85-86 Celtic team struggled to beat a 54-28 Rockets team in the Finals. The rest of his playoff career was summed up by SEVEN losses with HCA, including a 4-0 sweep in one.

Kobe? How "great" was Kobe after Shaq left? He could only "carry" his Lakers to a 34-48 record. He was part of the most lopsided losses in big games of any supposed "GOAT" candidate. And there was no question he was the worst shooting "GOAT" candidate in Finals history.

Shaq? How could the "MDE" be part of SIX sweeping playoff losses? Hell, he was losing to huge underdogs, and played miserably in another near sweep against Greg Ostertag forcryingoutloud.

Hakeem? Hilarious. The man couldn't get past the first round in over half of his long career. And in the majority of those, his teams were shelled. He finally was part of two title teams, but even those were "tainted." IN his first title run, the best player in the game took the year off, and Hakeem's Rockets barely beat an inferior Knicks team for the title (the same Knicks team that a Jordanless Bulls team nearly beat in a seven game series.) And in his second title, his teammates overcame his crushing beatdown by Shaq in the '95 Finals. The man was an epitome of a LOSER.

So, there can be NO excuses. How come these supposed greats couldn't INDIVIDUALLY carry their teams to titles?

.


This post is filled with BS. Just to prop up Wilt? Shit, I love Wilt, and he's definitely top 10 with case for 5 or even a bit more, but please just stop.

[millwad]

This post is filled with BS. Just to prop up Wilt? Shit, I love Wilt, and he's definitely top 10 with case for 5 or even a bit more, but please just stop.

It's beyond pathetic, the funniest part is when he trashes all Wilt's amazing teammates. I still recall a thread where he completely trashed Baylor, West, Goodrich when people mentioned that Wilt had plenty of help during his career. In the same thread he hyped shitty role players like Vernon Maxwell and Kenny Smith just to make Olajuwon's accomplishments look less impressive. So from bashing Wilt's HOF teammates in a try to make Wilt look great, to hyping up role players Kenny Smith and Vernon Maxwell in a try to make Olajuwon look like garbage. He does it with every player who gets compared with Wilt.

The most interesting and sad part is how he first bashes Shaq only to follow up that with hyping him like crazy in the bashing of Olajuwon. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It's nothing but stupidity and revisionist history, he lies, cherry picks and bashes other players just to prop up his beloved Wilt. It's pathetic. Just read the following lie and then go up and read what he wrote in the Shaq bashing;


Hakeem? Hilarious.....
And in his second title, his teammates overcame his crushing beatdown by Shaq in the '95 Finals. The man was an epitome of a LOSER.

[CavaliersFTW]

This whole time you nimrods have been wasting time arguing how Wilt shouldn't be considered any good (getting pretty much nobody outside of your own troll circles to agree with you), I've been quietly working on another video that will probably go viral and convince another couple thousand or more people that Wilt is indeed nothing short of a GOAT candidate. Carry on with accomplishing nothing though.

[Pointguard]

Robert Horry isn't a franchise player.
Sam Jones franchise player 10 Rings and super clutch - including the finals. He was an exceptional finals player. If we go by finals and clutch play - he's one of the best for sure. Should he be placed in front Kobe as 2nd best shooting guard ever. Watch what you wish for.

Tommy Heinshon franchise player won 8 rings

Havelicek franchise player 8 rings

Cousey franchise player 6 rings

Mikan franchise player 5 rings

[millwad]

This whole time you nimrods have been wasting time arguing how Wilt shouldn't be considered any good (getting pretty much nobody outside of your own troll circles to agree with you), I've been quietly working on another video that will probably go viral and convince another couple thousand or more people that Wilt is indeed nothing short of a GOAT candidate. Carry on with accomplishing nothing though.

You are well aware of the fact that reactions in this thread is due Jlauber's lies, cherry picking and how he trashes Wilt's teammates while hyping up his competitors.

You know that very well and you think he's an idiot as well.

Keep rocking it with your videos though, would love to see other players from the '60's as well though.

[millwad]

Sam Jones franchise player 10 Rings and super clutch - including the finals. He was an exceptional finals player. If we go by finals and clutch play - he's one of the best for sure. Should he be placed in front Kobe as 2nd best shooting guard ever. Watch what you wish for.

Tommy Heinshon franchise player won 8 rings

Havelicek franchise player 8 rings

Cousey franchise player 6 rings

Mikan franchise player 5 rings

Yeah, you sound so reliable..
You don't even know how to spell "Heinsohn", "Cousy" or "Havlicek". :facepalm

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Sam Jones franchise player 10 Rings and super clutch - including the finals. He was an exceptional finals player. If we go by finals and clutch play - he's one of the best for sure. Should he be placed in front Kobe as 2nd best shooting guard ever. Watch what you wish for.

Tommy Heinshon franchise player won 8 rings

Havelicek franchise player 8 rings

Cousey franchise player 6 rings

Mikan franchise player 5 rings

I was never going by finals. Although, it's flawed to say that Robert Horry's 7 rings are equal to that of a franchise players'.

Pretty elementary stuff here. :oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Sam Jones franchise player 10 Rings and super clutch - including the finals. He was an exceptional finals player. If we go by finals and clutch play - he's one of the best for sure. Should he be placed in front Kobe as 2nd best shooting guard ever. Watch what you wish for.

Tommy Heinshon franchise player won 8 rings

Havelicek franchise player 8 rings

Cousey franchise player 6 rings

Mikan franchise player 5 rings
None of them are as good as a top 10 GOATs

I could bring up Isiah Thomas 2 rings...but he is not considered in the level of top 10 GOATs regardless of the 2 rings and being a franchise player.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I like how jlauber calls Hakeem a loser when he won the same amount of rings as Wilt.

[jongib369]

This whole time you nimrods have been wasting time arguing how Wilt shouldn't be considered any good (getting pretty much nobody outside of your own troll circles to agree with you), I've been quietly working on another video that will probably go viral and convince another couple thousand or more people that Wilt is indeed nothing short of a GOAT candidate. Carry on with accomplishing nothing though.

:roll:

[jstern]

I knew a tread asking this question had to be started by a Kobe fan. So insecure that they have an agenda against every other great player.

[Pointguard]

I was never going by finals. Although, it's flawed to say that Robert Horry's 7 rings are equal to that of a franchise players'.

Pretty elementary stuff here. :oldlol:
Really, so ring count by franchise players isn't that important? So you disagree with purpose of the thread? If it is very important than what is the criteria you are using? Then we can get down to elementary.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Really, so ring count by franchise players isn't that important? So you disagree with purpose of the thread? If it is very important than what is the criteria you are using? Then we can get down to elementary.

Didn't say that. Nor did I claim they were the ONLY measure.

I simply corrected the poster trying to give Robert Horry, a role player, the same credit as a superstar... or "franchise player".

[Pointguard]

None of them are as good as a top 10 GOATs

I could bring up Isiah Thomas 2 rings...but he is not considered in the level of top 10 GOATs regardless of the 2 rings and being a franchise player.
Either you have a principle that works across the board for stellar layers or you don't. Otherwise it's haterism and cherry picking.

A great player does what nobody else can do. This is the top tier of greatness. Wilt, Russell and Jordan dominate this category.

Second tier of greatness. Have mythological or legendary proportions in the game and beyond the sport many years later.

Third tier of greatness is to be the standard for other greats to dream and aspire to achieve.

There are three guys that hit all three top tiers. We can put in all our other measures of non-greatness but it is only that.

Excellence and superior standards (which are other measures) are not always great as its not about the expression of the uppermost limits. Gretzky, Ruth, Ali and Pele weren't the greatest winners but they pushed all following generations to appreciate top tier greatness. The rest is personal appraisal and little else.

People who don't know the sport know about 100. Those who know the sport know about 50 and 25. You can lie to yourself all you want... You are not going to change what greatness is.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Either you have a principle that works across the board for stellar layers or you don't. Otherwise it's haterism and cherry picking.

A great player does what nobody else can do. This is the top tier of greatness. Wilt, Russell and Jordan dominate this category.

Second tier of greatness. Have mythological or legendary proportions in the game and beyond the sport many years later.

Third tier of greatness is to be the standard for other greats to dream and aspire to achieve.

There are three guys that hit all three top tiers. We can put in all our other measures of non-greatness but it is only that.

Excellence and superior standards (which are other measures) are not always great as its not about the expression of the uppermost limits. Gretzky, Ruth, Ali and Pele weren't the greatest winners but they pushed all following generations to appreciate top tier greatness. The rest is personal appraisal and little else.

People who don't know the sport know about 100. Those who know the sport know about 50 and 25. You can lie to yourself all you want... You are not going to change what greatness is.
How many playoff moments do they know or remember?
How many finals moments do they know or remember?
Wilt is probably a top 3 greatest regular season player of alltime. But why would you rank by regular season?

[K]

How many playoff moments do they know or remember?
How many finals moments do they know or remember?
Wilt is probably a top 3 greatest regular season player of alltime. But why would you rank by regular season?

I'll take the playoff performances of a 0-20 FT shooting Wilt over the best Kobe Bryant there ever was.

That's how big the difference is between the two. Hell, even if he scored less than 10 ppg and simply passed all the time I'd still take him over Kobe Bryant. That's just how good he was all over the court.

[aj1987]

[QUOTE=K

[K]

And that's the reason why Kobe's teams won 5 rings and Wilt's teams won 2.

****ing ring argument :mad: . Kobe's teams won 2 rings, anyway.

[Pointguard]

How many playoff moments do they know or remember?
How many finals moments do they know or remember?
Wilt is probably a top 3 greatest regular season player of alltime. But why would you rank by regular season?
Ruth's homeruns were done in the regular season. Gretzky's 125??? goals, regular season, Roger Maris homeruns regular season. Individual greatness is usually done during the regular season. Team greatness in the post season - that's always been the case in basketball but I can see you thinking otherwise if you are a follower of certain players. What you and Millwad don't understand is that Wilt was one of the greatest team players ever as well. The guy could do whatever the team asked him to do outside of hit FT at a high percentage. He always played great defense. In Kareems most prolific year he was neutralized by Wilt in the playoffs. That's great defense which is great play.

[julizaver]

Ruth's homeruns were done in the regular season. Gretzky's 125??? goals, regular season, Roger Maris homeruns regular season. Individual greatness is usually done during the regular season. Team greatness in the post season - that's always been the case in basketball but I can see you thinking otherwise if you are a follower of certain players. What you and Millwad don't understand is that Wilt was one of the greatest team players ever as well. The guy could do whatever the team asked him to do outside of hit FT at a high percentage. He always played great defense. In Kareems most prolific year he was neutralized by Wilt in the playoffs. That's great defense which is great play.

Millwad understands. He just seeking attention and that's why he and deuce trolling around. I suggest to ignore their threads in future.

[aj1987]

[QUOTE=K

[K]

The same as a top 5 player and 3 more as a sidekick. Still more than Wilt could manage.

Uh, huh, and Wilt is still a better player. Only an idiot would take Kobe over Wilt on his team.

[aj1987]

[QUOTE=K

[Deuce Bigalow]

[QUOTE=K

[K]

If you want to win- Kobe
If you want to get close to winning but lose in a close critical games- Wilt

Remove Kobe and add Wilt and the Lakers are instantly one of the favorites.

[Psileas]

I never said I would. I actually have Wilt a couple of spots above Kobe on my GOAT list. Doesn't change the fact that he did choke in the playoffs though.

MJ
KAJ
Magic
Russell
Shaq
Wilt
Bird
Duncan
Kobe
Hakeem

And yet, neither you or anyone else is able to provide any concrete evidence that Wilt in the playoffs "choked" or underperformed more than many other greats. Most of you just use arguments like the "30.1 vs 22.5" and fail to see what surrounds it, and it's not as if this hasn't been addressed in the past.

BTW, yesterday I did a small research and found the following: With the exception of 1969-70, when Wilt missed the biggest part of the regular season, he played in 26 playoff series. In half (13) of them, he actually averaged more ppg vs what he averaged in the regular season against the same teams, and I'm sure this ratio would be even higher when it comes to rebounding. In other words, Wilt stepped up definitely more frequently than what people like you give him credit.

[julizaver]

And yet, neither you or anyone else is able to provide any concrete evidence that Wilt in the playoffs "choked" or underperformed more than many other greats. Most of you just use arguments like the "30.1 vs 22.5" and fail to see what surrounds it, and it's not as if this hasn't been addressed in the past.

BTW, yesterday I did a small research and found the following: With the exception of 1969-70, when Wilt missed the biggest part of the regular season, he played in 26 playoff series. In half (13) of them, he actually averaged more ppg vs what he averaged in the regular season against the same teams, and I'm sure this ratio would be even higher when it comes to rebounding. In other words, Wilt stepped up definitely more frequently than what people like you give him credit.

You have made an insightfull research, but the trolls will come again with 2 rings thing, and 1-11 FTs shooting game. Wilt averaged almost 30 rebounds per game vs Russell, who was considered the greatest rebounder. He had a 30-30 post-season series against Russell, who is considered the best defender ever. Is there any center who outplayed him in single elimination game? Just point one. The so called Wilt's failures only prove one thing - that the basketball is a team sport.

[Psileas]

You have made an insightfull research, but the trolls will come again with 2 rings thing, and 1-11 FTs shooting game. Wilt averaged almost 30 rebounds per game vs Russell, who was considered the greatest rebounder. He had a 30-30 post-season series against Russell, who is considered the best defender ever. Is there any center who outplayed him in single elimination game? Just point one. The so called Wilt's failures only prove one thing - that the basketball is a team sport.

Sad thing is, I'm a Wilt fan and I could make a better case against him if I wanted than most of these dudes. Wilt could be partially blamed for losing too many FT's in certain close games, but this "1-11" in a game that wasn't close almost right from the 1st Q? You need to do better than that.

[julizaver]

Sad thing is, I'm a Wilt fan and I could make a better case against him if I wanted than most of these dudes. Wilt could be partially blamed for losing too many FT's in certain close games, but this "1-11" in a game that wasn't close almost right from the 1st Q? You need to do better than that.

So do I. An educated fan could make a case against every ''GOAT'' player better than every hater or troll. The sad thing is that Wilt was so dominating that even if he had two rings he was seen as the biggest loser of all time, while a lot of all time greats had no rings at all. No one point out at Hakeem as a loser, although he had the same amount of rings ? I have always try to be objective and I have never going to extremes in order to legitimate one player for the expenses of another all-time great. Russell was great, KAJ was great, Nate was great (although without a ring), Reed was great, BUT the standard for Wilt was different. He was expected to win every time. The league change the rules because of him, he dominate the record's book, his 67 team end the Celtics run to 8 and so and so ....
The only player who could challenge individually Wilt was KAJ and he was 11 years younger and at his peak. That is. Nor Russell, nor Thurmond, nor Reed, nor Bellamy, Lanier, Cowens, Lucas ...
The simple facts are: Russell acknowledges himself that Wilt was better individual than him. Wilt dominate everybody with the exception of Jabbar, at the end of his career. Wilt was an elite player even in his last season when he was 36-37. Wilt had 22 rebounds per game in his last post-season in 1973 - who was the closest after him. Did Walton, Jabbar, Mosses, Unseld ever averaged more ? Wilt had 49 blocks in 7 games series against Bulls again in 1973 - one year before the NBA start officially counted and so and so ...
Even now a lot of people said that had he was in the league today he would dominate 40 years after his final game.

[aj1987]

No one point out at Hakeem as a loser, although he had the same amount of rings ?
That's because Wilt is considered to be a top 2-5 player by people. When you're in the top 5, you're expected to win more than 2 rings. Hakeem is barely considered to be a top 10 player. Everyone else in the top 10 has more than 2 rings.

[CavaliersFTW]

That's because Wilt is considered to be a top 2-5 player by people. When you're in the top 5, you're expected to win more than 2 rings. Hakeem is barely considered to be a top 10 player. Everyone else in the top 10 has more than 2 rings.
Except nobody else in the top 5 was as individually and statistically dominant.

[Young X]

^ Jordan and Kareem

[CavaliersFTW]

^ Jordan and Kareem
:facepalm 50 and 25, gtfoh they never even came close that kind of production

Wilt has 32 60 point games how many does MJ have? How many does Kareem have? Don't even try to suggest anyone could lay down the kind of punishment Wilt was capable of in his prime - nobody, not even peak Shaq was as devastating as prime Wilt.

[Young X]

:facepalm 50 and 25, gtfoh they never even came close that kind of production

Wilt has 32 60 point games how many does MJ have? How many does Kareem have? Don't even try to suggest anyone could lay down the kind of punishment Wilt was capable of in his prime - nobody, not even peak Shaq was as devastating as prime Wilt.That's because they played on teams with 20-40 less possessions. 37 on 95 possessions is just as good as 50 on 130 possessions.

Also, Jordan and Kareem raised their scoring in the playoffs in most of their best seasons while Wilt's dropped every single year.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

:facepalm 50 and 25, gtfoh they never even came close that kind of production

Wilt has 32 60 point games how many does MJ have? How many does Kareem have? Don't even try to suggest anyone could lay down the kind of punishment Wilt was capable of in his prime - nobody, not even peak Shaq was as devastating as prime Wilt.

Yeah, except in the playoffs.

[aj1987]

:facepalm 50 and 25, gtfoh they never even came close that kind of production

Wilt has 32 60 point games how many does MJ have? How many does Kareem have? Don't even try to suggest anyone could lay down the kind of punishment Wilt was capable of in his prime - nobody, not even peak Shaq was as devastating as prime Wilt.
:facepalm Put prime Shaq on that team, he would've won more.

All those 60 point games, records, utter domination, and he still could manage to win only 2 rings?

I guess if you want your players to put up gaudy numbers, you take Wilt. If you want your team win, Jordan and KAJ.

EDIT: And how the hell do you not foul out even ONCE in a 14 year career? Wilt must've gotten some damn good treatment from the refs.

[CavaliersFTW]

That's because they played on teams with 20-40 less possessions. 37 on 95 possessions is just as good as 50 on 130 possessions.

Also, Jordan and Kareem raised their scoring in the playoffs in most of their best seasons while Wilt's dropped every single year.
your numbers are wrong, and :oldlol: @ trying to come up with excuses anyways - nobody is as dominant as Wilt in NBA history, period. Wilt has more REBOUNDS than Larry Bird has POINTS. Keep searching for excuses though - this troll thread is pathetic.

[Young X]

your numbers are wrong, and :oldlol: @ trying to come up with excuses anyways - nobody is as dominant as Wilt in NBA history, period. Wilt has more REBOUNDS than Larry Bird has POINTS. Keep searching for excuses though - this troll thread is pathetic.They're not excuses. Wilt, Jordan, Kareem all had similar production rate, the only difference is the paces they played at. In case you haven't noticed, ALL elite players from back then had way higher numbers than elite players in the modern era. Is it because they were much better or is it because they had way more opportunities to get numbers? Nate Archibald averaged 34/11 - was he better than Magic or did he play with more possessions? No disrespect to the old legends, btw.

[Deuce Bigalow]

And yet, neither you or anyone else is able to provide any concrete evidence that Wilt in the playoffs "choked" or underperformed more than many other greats. Most of you just use arguments like the "30.1 vs 22.5" and fail to see what surrounds it, and it's not as if this hasn't been addressed in the past.

BTW, yesterday I did a small research and found the following: With the exception of 1969-70, when Wilt missed the biggest part of the regular season, he played in 26 playoff series. In half (13) of them, he actually averaged more ppg vs what he averaged in the regular season against the same teams, and I'm sure this ratio would be even higher when it comes to rebounding. In other words, Wilt stepped up definitely more frequently than what people like you give him credit.
I have many times.

Compared to the top 10 GOATs

2 rings - fewest amount
2-4 record in the NBA Finals - worst winning percentage, only player with a losing record
14-5 in playoff series with HCA - worst winning percentage

He has a drop in Playoff PPG in EVERY season that his team made the playoffs

Regular season PPG -- Playoffs PPG
37.6 -- 33.2 (-4.4)
38.4 -- 37.0 (-1.4)
50.4 -- 35/0 (-15.4)
44.8 -- N/A
36.9 -- 34.7 (-2.2)
34.7 -- 29.3 (-5.4)
33.8 -- 28.0 (-5.8)
24.7 -- 21.7 (-3.0)
24.3 -- 23.7 (-0.6)
20.5 -- 13.9 (-6.6)
27.3 -- 22.1 (-5.2)
20.7 -- 18.3 (-2.5)
14.8 -- 14.7 (-0.1)
13.2 -- 10.4 (-2.8)

Every single ****ing year

His career playoff ppg compared to his regular season ppg is by far thelargest drop-off compared to the GOATs, and maybe even to anybody.

Career Regular season PPG -- Career Playoffs PPG
30.1 -- 22.5 (-7.6)

What about his free throw shooting?

Regular season - 51.1%
Playoffs - 46.5%
Finals - 37.5%

The Big Dipper folks

And I didn't even bring up individual close playoff games where he shot a terrible percentage.

[julizaver]

They're not excuses. Wilt, Jordan, Kareem all had similar production rate, the only difference is the paces they played at. In case you haven't noticed, ALL elite players from back then had way higher numbers than elite players in the modern era. Is it because they were much better or is it because they had way more opportunities to get numbers? Nate Archibald averaged 34/11 - was he better than Magic or did he play with more possessions? No disrespect to the old legends, btw.

Wrong about Kareem, he played four seasons 69-73 when Wilt was still active and never averaged more rebounds per game than Wilt ... 14.5 to 18.4, 16.0 to 18.2, 16.6 to 19.2 and 16.1 to 18.6.

So the pace argument is not valid in Kareem's case. :cheers:

[Psileas]

I have many times.

Compared to the top 10 GOATs

2 rings - fewest amount
2-4 record in the NBA Finals - worst winning percentage, only player with a losing record
14-5 in playoff series with HCA - worst winning percentage

He has a drop in Playoff PPG in EVERY season that his team made the playoffs

Regular season PPG -- Playoffs PPG
37.6 -- 33.2 (-4.4)
38.4 -- 37.0 (-1.4)
50.4 -- 35/0 (-15.4)
44.8 -- N/A
36.9 -- 34.7 (-2.2)
34.7 -- 29.3 (-5.4)
33.8 -- 28.0 (-5.8)
24.7 -- 21.7 (-3.0)
24.3 -- 23.7 (-0.6)
20.5 -- 13.9 (-6.6)
27.3 -- 22.1 (-5.2)
20.7 -- 18.3 (-2.5)
14.8 -- 14.7 (-0.1)
13.2 -- 10.4 (-2.8)

Every single ****ing year

His career playoff ppg compared to his regular season ppg is by far thelargest drop-off compared to the GOATs, and maybe even to anybody.

Career Regular season PPG -- Career Playoffs PPG
30.1 -- 22.5 (-7.6)

What about his free throw shooting?

Regular season - 51.1%
Playoffs - 46.5%
Finals - 37.5%

The Big Dipper folks

And I didn't even bring up individual close playoff games where he shot a terrible percentage.

I could easily counter all of these by pointing out every single time Bird lost with HCA - more than any other player in NBA history. Every single time Shaq was swept - more than any other player in NBA history, not to mention he was a horrible FT shooter as well. Every single time Kareem was outrebounded, more than any GOAT level center in NBA history. Every single time Kobe shot horribly in do or die games, probably more than any GOAT in NBA history. Then add some more stats next to these basic ideas to make my point stronger and present all this as evidence that "X" is not a top-10 player in history.
Or simply post Wilt's playoff records. Or copy-paste some of Lauber's walls about every single of Wilt's performances in do or die games.
Or do all of these combined...

BTW, your "Regular season PPG -- Playoffs PPG" table is not nearly as descriptive and informative as my findings that I repeat:

With the exception of 1969-70, when Wilt missed the biggest part of the regular season, he played in 26 playoff series. In half (13) of them, he actually averaged more ppg vs what he averaged in the regular season against the same teams, and I'm sure this ratio would be even higher when it comes to rebounding. In other words, Wilt stepped up definitely more frequently than what people like you give him credit.

[Psileas]

^(BTW, by "every player", I obviously meant "GOAT level player").

[Deuce Bigalow]

I could easily counter all of these by pointing out every single time Bird lost with HCA - more than any other player in NBA history. Every single time Shaq was swept - more than any other player in NBA history, not to mention he was a horrible FT shooter as well. Every single time Kareem was outrebounded, more than any GOAT level center in NBA history. Every single time Kobe shot horribly in do or die games, probably more than any GOAT in NBA history. Then add some more stats next to these basic ideas to make my point stronger and present all this as evidence that "X" is not a top-10 player in history.
Or simply post Wilt's playoff records. Or copy-paste some of Lauber's walls about every single of Wilt's performances in do or die games.
Or do all of these combined...

BTW, your "Regular season PPG -- Playoffs PPG" table is not nearly as descriptive and informative as my findings that I repeat:

With the exception of 1969-70, when Wilt missed the biggest part of the regular season, he played in 26 playoff series. In half (13) of them, he actually averaged more ppg vs what he averaged in the regular season against the same teams, and I'm sure this ratio would be even higher when it comes to rebounding. In other words, Wilt stepped up definitely more frequently than what people like you give him credit.
Bird had a higher win percentage even though he lost more since he won a lot more (21-7). 3 titles compared to Wilt's 2. Shaq has double ring count compared to Wilt and he actually shoot okay in close big games (8-12 in game 7 00 WCF) and is 4th leading playoff scorer. Kobe not only doubled Wilt's ring count, he also has an extra ring to boot and is the 3rd leading playoff scorer. Kareem's the 2nd leading playoff scorer in NBA history and has three times the ring count as Wilt.

[julizaver]

Michael Jordan
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Larry Bird
Shaquille O'Neal
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

All 10 players listed above have more or at least equal amount of rings, finals mvps, other accolades, and are considered superior playoff performers. Does Wilt have a case over one of these players?

Wilt had a very strong case over Kobe - to answer the question.
Rings are not individual achievement it is a team achievement at first.
Wilt had more MVPs, more individual tittles (scoring, rebounding and assists), superior playoff performer, superior finals performer than Kobe.
Case closed.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wilt had a very strong case over Kobe - to answer the question.
Rings are not individual achievement it is a team achievement at first.
Wilt had more MVPs, more individual tittles (scoring, rebounding and assists), superior playoff performer, superior finals performer than Kobe.
Case closed.
http://www2.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Haier+Shooting+Stars+fC0JdAHVsN3l.jpg

[Pointguard]

Yeah, except in the playoffs.

Sorry 100, 50, 25 ain't going anywhere in the next 50 years.

Or perhaps the greatest all around playoff run ever?

His 21/29 and 9 championship run. Blocks are likely 9 plus and might be counted at a later date. The amazing thing about this run is that it was one the best defensive ones as well by a player. He still shot 580% with excellent team balance. There might even be several quadruple double games in the playoff run. History isn't going to be hard on his playoff level play when he was the only player in history getting a super amazing playoff quadruple double much less a 20/30/10/10 quadruple double in the ECF against the best defensive player ever.

And assist were much harder to get back then. AND the scoring champion thanked Wilt Chamberlain for not wanting the scoring title that year! Wilt was pretty good at getting steals as well but they weren't tabulated back then either.

I'm not so sure there were better statistical playoff runs than these as well.
37 and 23
35 and 26.6
28 and 30

But some of the other playoff runs were considered better than these three!

[julizaver]

http://www2.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Haier+Shooting+Stars+fC0JdAHVsN3l.jpg

Kobe 25.6 ppg on 0.448 shooting
Wilt 22.5 on 0.522 shooting

Kobe 5.1 rpg
Wilt 24.5 rpg

Kobe 4.7 apg
Wilt 4.2 apg

If you wish you can post FTs ? Or if you wish we can proceed with Finals only ?

[Pointguard]

Wilt had a very strong case over Kobe - to answer the question.
Rings are not individual achievement it is a team achievement at first.
Wilt had more MVPs, more individual tittles (scoring, rebounding and assists), superior playoff performer, superior finals performer than Kobe.
Case closed.

Yeah, they don't know that they are setting up a scenario where their own arguments will definitely boot Kobe out of the top ten GOAT list in favor of Durant. Durant already has a stellar finals under his belt and we will see more from him.

In the playoffs its more of a team reality. Lazeruss already provided how Wilt's better teammates barely shot 34% in a majority of the contest. Show me another great were their better teammates shot 39% and they won? When Kareem's teammates shot 45% he couldn't win in the same decade as Wilt (he won once and that was it). Not a slight against Kareem at all because nobody else is doing it either. And there wasn't one dominant team in the 70's. Wilt played some of the highest ranked defensive teams in history to boot.

A team has cart blanch to double and triple team a player when poor shooting happens. Kobe was a three time champion and Detroit made him look like an amateur when they focused on him instead of Shaq. And they lost bad to a team with no Allstars. Good defenses prioritize better against teams with uneven scoring. Kobe plays very bad against the East. If his better teammates shot 34% and 38% against the East he would no chance whatsoever at 1 ring even with Shaq. This isnt a downer on Kobe because it applies to everybody.

But if we judge shootiing guards by finals play, then playoff play I think it gets rearranged in favor of Wade, West and Sam Jones. If we do it in terms of the top ten GOAT Durant is likely to boot out Kobe once he wins it all a couple of times. Compliments of his fans arguments going after the wrong guy.

[ILLsmak]

Shaq is a ****ing lock for top 10 for a minute; the only player since MJ with any chance of pushing him out is LeBron. Anyone saying he gets kicked out of the top 10 deserves to be strangulated.

-Smak

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe 25.6 ppg on 0.448 shooting
Wilt 22.5 on 0.522 shooting

Kobe 5.1 rpg
Wilt 24.5 rpg

Kobe 4.7 apg
Wilt 4.2 apg

If you wish you can post FTs ? Or if you wish we can proceed with Finals only ?
Kobe 25.6 ppg on .541 TS%
Wilt 22.5 ppg on .524 TS%

Kobe 7.4 TRB%
Wilt 21.9 TRB%

Kobe 23.3 AST%
Wilt 12.9 AST%

Kobe 5 Championships
Wilt 2 Championships

Kobe 7 Finals appearances
Wilt 6 Finals appearances

Kobe 27-2 with HCA
Wilt 14-5 with HCA

[Psileas]

Bird had a higher win percentage even though he lost more since he won a lot more (21-7). 3 titles compared to Wilt's 2. Shaq has double ring count compared to Wilt and he actually shoot okay in close big games (8-12 in game 7 00 WCF) and is 4th leading playoff scorer. Kobe not only doubled Wilt's ring count, he also has an extra ring to boot and is the 3rd leading playoff scorer. Kareem's the 2nd leading playoff scorer in NBA history and has three times the ring count as Wilt.

Half this post is about rings. You know damn well they don't all count the same, unless you also want to argue that Kareem's 6 rings have exactly the same value with Jordan's. Wilt has (practically) 2 Finals MVP's, and none of these players has more than 3 or the equivalent of 3 (including cases when they should have won it).
Wilt played 1 (and once 2) round per season less, so of course he wouldn't rank very high in the all-time playoff scoring list. No player from Wilt's time ranks very high, except West, who was playing in the Western Division, thus having to face the Celtics only in the Finals, and even though he's the All-Time Finals scoring leader, he only ranks 7th among playoff leaders. Notable however is that Wilt, who ranks 15th, is as far ahead of #16 (Dirk) as #8 (Bird) is from Wilt.

And my previous points remain.

[SilkkTheShocker]

all you get from Wilt fans is excuses.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Half this post is about rings. You know damn well they don't all count the same, unless you also want to argue that Kareem's 6 rings have exactly the same value with Jordan's. Wilt has (practically) 2 Finals MVP's, and none of these players has more than 3 or the equivalent of 3 (including cases when they should have won it).
Wilt played 1 (and once 2) round per season less, so of course he wouldn't rank very high in the all-time playoff scoring list. No player from Wilt's time ranks very high, except West, who was playing in the Western Division, thus having to face the Celtics only in the Finals, and even though he's the All-Time Finals scoring leader, he only ranks 7th among playoff leaders. Notable however is that Wilt, who ranks 15th, is as far ahead of #16 (Dirk) as #8 (Bird) is from Wilt.

And my previous points remain.
I know not all rings are valued the same, but you have to understand that Wilt had a chance to win rings as a sidekick, but he failed. In 1969 and 1970, he had Jerry West who was the best player in the league both years. The result? Back to back Game 7 Finals losses. He was awful in some of the critical games, like Game 4 of the '69 Finals for example he shot 2-11 from the line in a 1 point loss, Lakers could have gone up 3-1 but the series was tied up and we know what happened next. You can't penalize players like Kobe and Kareem for winning rings as sidekicks. They had their role and they did what was needed to be done to win, they of course done it "by themselves" multiple times as well.

[Psileas]

I know not all rings are valued the same, but you have to understand that Wilt had a chance to win rings as a sidekick, but he failed. In 1969 and 1970, he had Jerry West who was the best player in the league both years. The result? Back to back Game 7 Finals losses. He was awful in some of the critical games, like Game 4 of the '69 Finals for example he shot 2-11 from the line in a 1 point loss, Lakers could have gone up 3-1 but the series was tied up and we know what happened next. You can't penalize players like Kobe and Kareem for winning rings as sidekicks. They had their role and they did what was needed to be done to win, they of course done it "by themselves" multiple times as well.


Really? So, Wilt had some chances to win as a "sidekick", and then you blame him for not putting GOAT numbers? Why is he to blame that much for his mediocre games, if he's not expected to dominate more? Bad FT shooting is one thing and I don't excuse this, having awful games is another. So, which part will you pick? I'll say that for a "sidekick", Wilt produced great stats in the 1969 Finals and extraordinary ones in 1970. Was Wilt for you arguably the best player in the world in 1969 and 1970 or a player of early/mid-80's Kareem caliber? I don't ask these things because I care that much about your opinion or to form my opinion, but I want to see where the other person stands, which determines whether his criticism is honest.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Really? So, Wilt had some chances to win as a "sidekick", and then you blame him for not putting GOAT numbers? Why is he to blame that much for his mediocre games, if he's not expected to dominate more? Bad FT shooting is one thing and I don't excuse this, having awful games is another. So, which part will you pick? I'll say that for a "sidekick", Wilt produced great stats in the 1969 Finals and extraordinary ones in 1970. Was Wilt for you arguably the best player in the world in 1969 and 1970 or a player of early/mid-80's Kareem caliber? I don't ask these things because I care that much about your opinion or to form my opinion, but I want to see where the other person stands, which determines whether his criticism is honest.
Wilt was still in his prime, West at that point was at his peak and considered the better player. Wilt was still young and not at the point of mid-80s Kareem.

[G-train]

Top 10 is subjective, but Wilt is in discussion for top 5, so he would be probably in top ten.
To think otherwise would make you a basketball dolt.
He is probably the best player ever if we were being real... He averaged 50 a game for a season.

[G-train]

I know not all rings are valued the same, but you have to understand that Wilt had a chance to win rings as a sidekick, but he failed. In 1969 and 1970, he had Jerry West who was the best player in the league both years. The result? Back to back Game 7 Finals losses. He was awful in some of the critical games, like Game 4 of the '69 Finals for example he shot 2-11 from the line in a 1 point loss, Lakers could have gone up 3-1 but the series was tied up and we know what happened next. You can't penalize players like Kobe and Kareem for winning rings as sidekicks. They had their role and they did what was needed to be done to win, they of course done it "by themselves" multiple times as well.

Have you watched that game?

[Psileas]

Wilt was still in his prime, West at that point was at his peak and considered the better player. Wilt was still young and not at the point of mid-80s Kareem.

So, you basically believe that Wilt was still an elite player and that simply West was better. In such cases, I refrain from using the "sidekick" word, it's not representative of a superstar in his prime, even if you think he was inferior to some other teammate.
(Having said that, I don't buy that he was "considered" the better player. By who exactly? And whether he was at his peak is arguable - age-wise, maybe, but he was too frequently injured that season and, despite his great NBA Finals, you neglect that he had a bad Western Finals series against Atlanta, a series when Wilt was their MVP).

[Deuce Bigalow]

So, you basically believe that Wilt was still an elite player and that simply West was better. In such cases, I refrain from using the "sidekick" word, it's not representative of a superstar in his prime, even if you think he was inferior to some other teammate.
(Having said that, I don't buy that he was "considered" the better player. By who exactly? And whether he was at his peak is arguable - age-wise, maybe, but he was too frequently injured that season and, despite his great NBA Finals, you neglect that he had a bad Western Finals series against Atlanta, a series when Wilt was their MVP).
West's playoff numbers speak for themself. He was the best player in the 69 and 70 playoffs. In the playoffs he led in scoring in 69, then led in assists while also scoring over 30 in 70. In the regular season he finished higher than Wilt in MVP voting both years, this is important since they are on the same team. It's not even arguable who was better between the two. West dominated the Finals, Wilt choked in them and that was the reason they lost. Stop making excuses and making up history. And I havent checked th numbers of the 69 WDF, but being the best player for one series in a given year does not make you better than the teammate that was better in the entire postseason. Nobody calls Kobe the best player on the 01 Lakers even though he was the best player in the 01 WCF, or Kareem the best on the 85 Lakers because of the Finals.

[julizaver]

West's playoff numbers speak for themself. He was the best player in the 69 and 70 playoffs. In the playoffs he led in scoring in 69, then led in assists while also scoring over 30 in 70. In the regular season he finished higher than Wilt in MVP voting both years, this is important since they are on the same team. It's not even arguable who was better between the two. West dominated the Finals, Wilt choked in them and that was the reason they lost. Stop making excuses and making up history. And I havent checked th numbers of the 69 WDF, but being the best player for one series in a given year does not make you better than the teammate that was better in the entire postseason. Nobody calls Kobe the best player on the 01 Lakers even though he was the best player in the 01 WCF, or Kareem the best on the 85 Lakers because of the Finals.

Wilt was great in 1970 finals, considering he was returning from major injury suffered earlier in the season. In 1969 finals he had below his standards series. But what about Kobe in 2004 vs Pistons? Take away both 1969 and 2004 and I can still argue that Wilt have a better case than Kobe to be top 10 all-time GOAT.

[Psileas]

West's playoff numbers speak for themself. He was the best player in the 69 and 70 playoffs. In the playoffs he led in scoring in 69, then led in assists while also scoring over 30 in 70. In the regular season he finished higher than Wilt in MVP voting both years, this is important since they are on the same team. It's not even arguable who was better between the two. West dominated the Finals, Wilt choked in them and that was the reason they lost. Stop making excuses and making up history. And I havent checked th numbers of the 69 WDF, but being the best player for one series in a given year does not make you better than the teammate that was better in the entire postseason. Nobody calls Kobe the best player on the 01 Lakers even though he was the best player in the 01 WCF, or Kareem the best on the 85 Lakers because of the Finals.

I knew you would include playoff numbers, but I'd rather use the whole season season as the only measurement. It wasn't Jerry West the one who had Bill Russell on him. It wasn't Jerry West the one who, earlier, had Nate Thurmond on him. It wasn't Wilt the one who, while averaging 38 ppg, also allowed his opponent to average 28 ppg against him. And it wasn't Jerry West the one who had to be the defensive anchor and the one who led the season and postseason in rebounding. So how exactly it is somehow "clear" that West was better, even if he had the better Finals series, is beyond me.
Wilt wasn't the "the best player for one series in a given year". He was his team's best player in every single series from 1960 to 1968, his team's best player in 1 of the 3 series in 1969 and would then be his team's best player in at least 1 of the 3 series in 1970, 2 of the 2 series in 1971, 2 or 3 of the 3 series in 1972 and at least 1 of the 3 series in 1973. Plus, unlike West, he rarely missed any games in the R.S except in 1970.
If MVP votings are so important to you, Wes Unseld and Willis Reed, not West, would have to be "considered the best in the world" during those seasons and therefore better than West. Not that it matters though, because West did NOT finish over Wilt in the 1969 MVP race (http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1969.html#mvp) and he was only expected to do so in 1970 for obvious reasons (1995 Pippen also finished above Jordan, for that matter).

I know about Wilt's failures. He needs no excuses from my part to be a GOAT candidate, because I know about West's and everyone else's failures, as well. "Overall total/average" stats can only fool a good portion of the fans, but not everybody.

[Dro]

Wait, so people are really putting Kobe over Wilt? WHAT..........THE..............****!!!!! What has ish come to?

[SilkkTheShocker]

Wait, so people are really putting Kobe over Wilt? WHAT..........THE..............****!!!!! What has ish come to?

You're absolutely delusional if you don't think Kobe is higher than Wilt on the all-time list. And I don't even like Kobe. But the guy's career has been better and he doesn't have the stigma of being a loser.

[LAZERUSS]

Ruth's homeruns were done in the regular season. Gretzky's 125??? goals, regular season, Roger Maris homeruns regular season. Individual greatness is usually done during the regular season. Team greatness in the post season - that's always been the case in basketball but I can see you thinking otherwise if you are a follower of certain players. What you and Millwad don't understand is that Wilt was one of the greatest team players ever as well. The guy could do whatever the team asked him to do outside of hit FT at a high percentage. He always played great defense. In Kareems most prolific year he was neutralized by Wilt in the playoffs. That's great defense which is great play.

Exactly. Rings are TEAM awards. Records are INDIVIDUAL achievements, in a TEAM sport.

I get a kick out of those that attempt to disparage Wilt's individual accolades because of his TEAM's "failures."

How often have you come across an article which claimed that Doug Williams was the greatest QB of all-time? Or that Timmy Smith was the greatest running back of all-time? Or Gene Tenace being among the greatest homerun hitters of all-time?

And on the flip side, where do players like John Elway, Barry Sanders, Johnny Unitas, Dan Marino, Jim Brown, Willie Mays, and Ted Williams rank on "all-time" lists? And before someone suggests that Elway and Unitas were "clutch" players, the FACTS were, they were among the biggest BIG GAME "chokers' in sports history.

Having said that, Chamberlain was GREAT post-season player, and arguably he and Jordan were the two greatest CLUTCH post-season performers in NBA history.

I have posted Wilt's numbers in his "must-win" and "series clinching" games...all 35 of them (and this "loser's" TEAMs went 24-11 in them BTW.) You would be hard-pressed to find even ONE game, in those 35, in which he played poorly, and the reality was, he was BRILLIANT in the vast majority of them.

And, once again, players like Bird, Kareem, and Kobe have all had FAR more post-season "choke jobs" than Chamberlain. Hell, those three played on title teams in which their teammates had to OVERCOME their poor play to win the title.

And, I mentioned it in another thread, but if Wilt were considered a "choker" in so many of his post-season series, when he was off-the-charts dominant in them, but his TEAM lost....then Kareem must have been a massive choker in his 76-77 WCF's, when his TEAM was SWEPT, in a series in which KAJ just murdered Walton. Same with MJ and his 43.7 ppg in the 85-86 playoff series against Boston, in a series in which his TEAM was also SWEPT.

The "declining" Wilt who had four post-seasons of 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg. The Chamberlain who had post-season series of 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and 38.7 ppg, as well as series against Russell and his swarming teammates of 28.0 ppg, 29.2 ppg, 30.1 ppg, 30.2 ppg, and 33.6 ppg. The Wilt had who had FOUR playoff games of 50+ points, three of which came in "must-win" games, and one of those against Russell. Or a Chamberlain, on one leg, putting up a 45 point, 20-27 shooting, 27 rebound game in yet another "must win" Finals game.

And as I have so clearly illustrated, in a TEAM game, Chamberlain was not only heavily outgunned in "HOF" teammates in nearly every post-season, his teammates repeatedly puked all over the floor in the vast majority of them. And even with that, he nearly single-handedly carried putrid rosters, which played even worse in the post-season, to near series wins over HOF-laden Celtic teams, that received clutch performances from a variety of players.

Furthermore, Chamberlain's TEAMs had to battle the Celtic Dynasty in TEN of his 14 seasons, including EIGHT H2H playoff series! Can you imagine what MJ's numbers would have looked like had he faced the equivalent of the 88-89 Pistons EIGHT times in his post-season career. Or Shaq's numbers had he faced the 01-02 Spurs EIGHT times? Or Hakeem if he had to battle Eaton's 84-85 Jazz (under-dog) team EIGHT times? Or if Bird would have faced the likes of Michael Cooper EIGHT times in his post-season career? Or KAJ had he battled Thurmond EIGHT times? Or Kobe facing the 03-04 Pistons EIGHT times?

Wilt played in 29 post-season series. He was the best player on the floor in perhaps 25 of them, and never had even ONE poor series. And in his worst series, he was outplaying his opposing center, (and the only argument would have been in the 71-72 WCF's, in a series in which EVERYONE that actually watched the series claimed that Wilt outplayed KAJ.)

And back to Pointguard's post. Chamberlain OWNS the RECORD BOOK. He is credited with anywhere from 71-90+ records, and a case could be made that he actually owns hundreds, if not thousands, of them. If these "regular season" accomplishments are meaningless, why do so many hold the "100" and the "50.4" in such high regard? And how come it was ONLY Wilt who was just obliterating the records?

Even KAJ, who is often somehow ranked ahead of Wilt in these "GOAT" discussion, and who played four years IN the Wilt-era, never came close to the dominance that a prime Chamberlain did. Here again, I have pointed it out many times, but a prime Kareem faced several of the same centers that a Wilt had faced in his career, and he never approached the overwhelming dominance against them that a PRIME Chamberlain had just carpet-bombed those same centers with.

As Julizaver stated...Chamberlain's career was held to a much higher standard than any other all-time great. While he was being ripped for just crushing his peers, in losing efforts, players like Kareem, Bird, and Hakeem were being pitied in their's.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Exactly. Rings are TEAM awards. Records are INDIVIDUAL achievements, in a TEAM sport.

I get a kick out of those that attempt to disparage Wilt's individual accolades because of his TEAM's "failures."

How often have you come across an article which claimed that Doug Williams was the greatest QB of all-time? Or that Timmy Smith was the greatest running back of all-time? Or Gene Tenace being among the greatest homerun hitters of all-time?

And on the flip side, where do players like John Elway, Barry Sanders, Johnny Unitas, Dan Marino, Jim Brown, Willie Mays, and Ted Williams rank on "all-time" lists? And before someone suggests that Elway and Unitas were "clutch" players, the FACTS were, they were among the biggest BIG GAME "chokers' in sports history.

Having said that, Chamberlain was GREAT post-season player, and arguably he and Jordan were the two greatest CLUTCH post-season performers in NBA history.

I have posted Wilt's numbers in his "must-win" and "series clinching" games...all 35 of them (and this "loser's" TEAMs went 24-11 in them BTW.) You would be hard-pressed to find even ONE game, in those 35, in which he played poorly, and the reality was, he was BRILLIANT in the vast majority of them.

And, once again, players like Bird, Kareem, and Kobe have all had FAR more post-season "choke jobs" than Chamberlain. Hell, those three played on title teams in which their teammates had to OVERCOME their poor play to win the title.

And, I mentioned it in another thread, but if Wilt were considered a "choker" in so many of his post-season series, when he was off-the-charts dominant in them, but his TEAM lost....then Kareem must have been a massive choker in his 76-77 WCF's, when his TEAM was SWEPT, in a series in which KAJ just murdered Walton. Same with MJ and his 43.7 ppg in the 85-86 playoff series against Boston, in a series in which his TEAM was also SWEPT.

The "declining" Wilt who had four post-seasons of 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg. The Chamberlain who had post-season series of 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and 38.7 ppg, as well as series against Russell and his swarming teammates of 28.0 ppg, 29.2 ppg, 30.1 ppg, 30.2 ppg, and 33.6 ppg. The Wilt had who had FOUR playoff games of 50+ points, three of which came in "must-win" games, and one of those against Russell. Or a Chamberlain, on one leg, putting up a 45 point, 20-27 shooting, 27 rebound game in yet another "must win" Finals game.

And as I have so clearly illustrated, in a TEAM game, Chamberlain was not only heavily outgunned in "HOF" teammates in nearly every post-season, his teammates repeatedly puked all over the floor in the vast majority of them. And even with that, he nearly single-handedly carried putrid rosters, which played even worse in the post-season, to near series wins over HOF-laden Celtic teams, that received clutch performances from a variety of players.

Furthermore, Chamberlain's TEAMs had to battle the Celtic Dynasty in TEN of his 14 seasons, including EIGHT H2H playoff series! Can you imagine what MJ's numbers would have looked like had he faced the equivalent of the 88-89 Pistons EIGHT times in his post-season career. Or Shaq's numbers had he faced the 01-02 Spurs EIGHT times? Or Hakeem if he had to battle Eaton's 84-85 Jazz (under-dog) team EIGHT times? Or if Bird would have faced the likes of Michael Cooper EIGHT times in his post-season career? Or KAJ had he battled Thurmond EIGHT times? Or Kobe facing the 03-04 Pistons EIGHT times?

Wilt played in 29 post-season series. He was the best player on the floor in perhaps 25 of them, and never had even ONE poor series. And in his worst series, he was outplaying his opposing center, (and the only argument would have been in the 71-72 WCF's, in a series in which EVERYONE that actually watched the series claimed that Wilt outplayed KAJ.)

And back to Pointguard's post. Chamberlain OWNS the RECORD BOOK. He is credited with anywhere from 71-90+ records, and a case could be made that he actually owns hundreds, if not thousands, of them. If these "regular season" accomplishments are meaningless, why do so many hold the "100" and the "50.4" in such high regard? And how come it was ONLY Wilt who was just obliterating the records?

Even KAJ, who is often somehow ranked ahead of Wilt in these "GOAT" discussion, and who played four years IN the Wilt-era, never came close to the dominance that a prime Chamberlain did. Here again, I have pointed it out many times, but a prime Kareem faced several of the same centers that a Wilt had faced in his career, and he never approached the overwhelming dominance against them that a PRIME Chamberlain had just carpet-bombed those same centers with.

As Julizaver stated...Chamberlain's career was held to a much higher standard than any other all-time great. While he was being ripped for just crushing his peers, in losing efforts, players like Kareem, Bird, and Hakeem were being pitied in their's.

Imo

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Shaq
7. Wilt
8. Hakeem
9. Duncan
10. Lebron
11. Kobe
12. Moses
13. Oscar
14. Erving
15. Malone/West

Wilt is clearly top 10, just one of those players you can't leave out, and he has a solid case for top 5 but you need to stop reaching and also stop underrating other players, with mostly BS, in order to praise Wilt.

[Psileas]

Even KAJ, who is often somehow ranked ahead of Wilt in these "GOAT" discussion, and who played four years IN the Wilt-era, never came close to the dominance that a prime Chamberlain did.

Most importantly, in these 4 seasons, he didn't prove to be a better playoff performer than Wilt when he had to face similar tasks: Face the best individual defender(s) of Wilt's era in a series. When he did this, his averages fell, just like Wilt's: He had his best series performance against a good defender in 1970 against Reed, and Reed, despite that season's hype, wasn't defensively as great as either Wilt or Thurmond, both of whom missed extensive parts of the season (plus, Wilt wasn't held by Reed to way less ppg than what he averaged in the 2 previous series either - actually, he averaged more vs Reed than vs Bellamy). In 1971, he faced Thurmond, Wilt and Unseld and, guess what: His scoring averages fell in every single series, although it mattered little for the Bucks. In 1972, he faced Thurmond again, his averages plummeted, then he faced Wilt and produced only a bit less than in the regular season, but on way worse percentages. Still a significant overall decrease in general. In 1973, here comes Thurmond again, Jabbar's ppg and FG% once again in the toilet. In 1974, no more Wilt, no Nate, and Kareem dominates. Coincidence?

[Pointguard]

Exactly. Rings are TEAM awards. Records are INDIVIDUAL achievements, in a TEAM sport.

How often have you come across an article which claimed that Doug Williams was the greatest QB of all-time? Or that Timmy Smith was the greatest running back of all-time? Or Gene Tenace being among the greatest homerun hitters of all-time?
Thanks. This ring count business has greatly ruined analytical ability of most casual fans. But you hit it right on the head. In the playoffs, the better team wins most often. The more organized team that stays tight in its goal usually wins. In SA they are always all on the same page. When Detroit was without an allstar and beats LA it was because they were more organized. In basketball only a complete idiot can miss the fact that 2 organizations win it the most. Then the next dynasty is coaches or total talent. Individual Talent is no higher than fifth as health is before it as well. So individual talent is the fifth man... Most championships are predicated on a solid foundation or a person who organizes the pieces from up top (Celtics, Lakers, SA) OKC looks very promising because they have most of what is needed.


And on the flip side, where do players like John Elway, Barry Sanders, Johnny Unitas, Dan Marino, Jim Brown, Willie Mays, and Ted Williams rank on "all-time" lists? And before someone suggests that Elway and Unitas were "clutch" players, the FACTS were, they were among the biggest BIG GAME "chokers' in sports history. Ha!!! So true. But they did their legendary work that stood out.



I have posted Wilt's numbers in his "must-win" and "series clinching" games...all 35 of them (and this "loser's" TEAMs went 24-11 in them BTW.) You would be hard-pressed to find even ONE game, in those 35, in which he played poorly, and the reality was, he was BRILLIANT in the vast majority of them.
Once again, a great point.



And, I mentioned it in another thread, but if Wilt were considered a "choker" in so many of his post-season series, when he was off-the-charts dominant in them, but his TEAM lost....then Kareem must have been a massive choker in his 76-77 WCF's, when his TEAM was SWEPT, in a series in which KAJ just murdered Walton. Same with MJ and his 43.7 ppg in the 85-86 playoff series against Boston, in a series in which his TEAM was also SWEPT.
The funny thing was that people had to be reminded of their greatness and these moments were true testaments of it. These were the moments when you really saw it.


The "declining" Wilt who had four post-seasons of 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg. The Chamberlain who had post-season series of 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and 38.7 ppg, as well as series against Russell and his swarming teammates of 28.0 ppg, 29.2 ppg, 30.1 ppg, 30.2 ppg, and 33.6 ppg. The Wilt had who had FOUR playoff games of 50+ points, three of which came in "must-win" games, and one of those against Russell. Or a Chamberlain, on one leg, putting up a 45 point, 20-27 shooting, 27 rebound game in yet another "must win" Finals game.
Well said.


Furthermore, Chamberlain's TEAMs had to battle the Celtic Dynasty in TEN of his 14 seasons, including EIGHT H2H playoff series! Can you imagine what MJ's numbers would have looked like had he faced the equivalent of the 88-89 Pistons EIGHT times in his post-season career. Or Shaq's numbers had he faced the 01-02 Spurs EIGHT times? Or Hakeem if he had to battle Eaton's 84-85 Jazz (under-dog) team EIGHT times? Or if Bird would have faced the likes of Michael Cooper EIGHT times in his post-season career? Or KAJ had he battled Thurmond EIGHT times? Or Kobe facing the 03-04 Pistons EIGHT times?
Like I said above, its a dynastic sport, primarily. Karl Malone, Ewing, Barkley all were among the best but weren't with the big organizations that mastered the formula. KG played on a poor organization but the first year he plays on a good one he wins it all. And has been a contender for five years as long as they could hold back the injuries.



Wilt played in 29 post-season series. He was the best player on the floor in perhaps 25 of them, and never had even ONE poor series. And in his worst series, he was outplaying his opposing center, (and the only argument would have been in the 71-72 WCF's, in a series in which EVERYONE that actually watched the series claimed that Wilt outplayed KAJ.)

And back to Pointguard's post. Chamberlain OWNS the RECORD BOOK. He is credited with anywhere from 71-90+ records, and a case could be made that he actually owns hundreds, if not thousands, of them. If these "regular season" accomplishments are meaningless, why do so many hold the "100" and the "50.4" in such high regard? And how come it was ONLY Wilt who was just obliterating the records?
Even Jordan used Wilt's records as standards and the dream. Its in every players psyche. And never-mind the high number, could you imagine somebody coming along and surpassing Gretsky's great year of 125 goals to 175 and the incredibly dumbed down not recognizing its greatness. Somebody coming along and averaging better than 20ppg than Durant's best season today? All things are relative and Wilt averaged right there at 40% better than the next player while leading the league in rebounds! And lead the league in assist in another year.

Like I said earlier, Kobe's fan base has definitely cleared the way for him to get kicked out of the top 10 GOAT list. Wilt isn't going anywhere. And Durant seems to do pretty good under pressure when Westbrook is around.

[LAZERUSS]

Thanks. This ring count business has greatly ruined analytical ability of most casual fans. But you hit it right on the head. In the playoffs, the better team wins most often. The more organized team that stays tight in its goal usually wins. In SA they are always all on the same page. When Detroit was without an allstar and beats LA it was because they were more organized. In basketball only a complete idiot can miss the fact that 2 organizations win it the most. Then the next dynasty is coaches or total talent. Individual Talent is no higher than fifth as health is before it as well. So individual talent is the fifth man... Most championships are predicated on a solid foundation or a person who organizes the pieces from up top (Celtics, Lakers, SA) OKC looks very promising because they have most of what is needed.
Ha!!! So true. But they did their legendary work that stood out.


Once again, a great point.


The funny thing was that people had to be reminded of their greatness and these moments were true testaments of it. These were the moments when you really saw it.

Well said.

Like I said above, its a dynastic sport, primarily. Karl Malone, Ewing, Barkley all were among the best but weren't with the big organizations that mastered the formula. KG played on a poor organization but the first year he plays on a good one he wins it all. And has been a contender for five years as long as they could hold back the injuries.


Even Jordan used Wilt's records as standards and the dream. Its in every players psyche. And never-mind the high number, could you imagine somebody coming along and surpassing Gretsky's great year of 125 goals to 175 and the incredibly dumbed down not recognizing its greatness. Somebody coming along and averaging better than 20ppg than Durant's best season today? All things are relative and Wilt averaged right there at 40% better than the next player while leading the league in rebounds! And lead the league in assist in another year.

Like I said earlier, Kobe's fan base has definitely cleared the way for him to get kicked out of the top 10 GOAT list. Wilt isn't going anywhere. And Durant seems to do pretty good under pressure when Westbrook is around.

KG is perhaps the greatest example of TEAM accomplishments. He languished on just putrid teams for much of his career, and never sniffed a ring. However, when he was finally given quality teammates, he anchored one of the greatest teams of all-time (and Kobe was there to witness it first-hand BTW.)

There are numerous examples in other sports, as well. Very few here probably remember Jim Plunkett. He was a Heisman winner that was drafted by a horrible Patriots team. The poor man took such a beating that it affected his mechanics, and within a few years he was considered a bust. He was eventually traded to the 49ers, where, once again, he was just being buried before he could even take a step backwards. He was once again relegated to the bench, and the Raiders picked him up as a backup for Dan Pastorini. When Pastorini went down with an injury, Plunkett, now surrounded by a HOF offensive line, a couple of quality backs, great receivers, and a defense which kept his team in the game...flourished. He would go on to win two SB rings and a SB MVP.

And, as we know, when Chamberlain was given quality supporting casts, that played reasonably well, he anchored two of the greatest teams of all-time, and both won overwhelming world titles.

[JellyBean]

For like the 100the time, yes Wilt is a Top ten player of all time.

Kareem
Jordan
Wilt
Bill Russell
Magic
Shaq
Kobe
Bird
Lebron
Hakeem

[julizaver]

As Julizaver stated...Chamberlain's career was held to a much higher standard than any other all-time great. While he was being ripped for just crushing his peers, in losing efforts, players like Kareem, Bird, and Hakeem were being pitied in their's.

When I am saying that Wilt had a below his standards series in 69 finals, I do not mean that he played awful. He had a good game 7 prior to his injury. And in the Game 1 he blocked 14 shots, which could be a record also.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Michael Jordan
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Larry Bird
Shaquille O'Neal
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

All 10 players listed above have more or at least equal amount of rings, finals mvps, other accolades, and are considered superior playoff performers. Does Wilt have a case over one of these players?
Forgot to add George Mikan.

George Mikan
Michael Jordan
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Larry Bird
Shaquille O'Neal
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

I don't think Wilt is greater than any of them except maybe Hakeem, maybe.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Mikan including his entire professional career: 7x champion, 7/7 in the finals, would have had all the fmvps had they existed and a couple of mvps if they existed too, 2nd highest per in playoff history

MJ: 6x champion, 6/6 in the finals, 6x finals mvp, highest per in playoff history, highest ppg in playoff history, most points playoff history

Russell: 11x champion, 11/12 in the finals, would had at least 6 fmvps likely more if they existed

KAJ: 6x champion, 6/10 in the finals, 2x fmvp, 2nd most playoff points

Magic: 5x champion, 5/9 in the finals, 3x fmvp, highest apg in playoff history, most assists in playoff history

Bird: 3x champion, 3/5 in the finals, 2x finals mvp, 9th most playoff points

Shaq: 4x champion, 4/6 in the finals, 3x fmvp, 4th most playoff points

Kobe: 5x champion, 5/7 in the finals, 2x fmvp, 3rd most playoff points

Duncan: 5x champion, 5/6 in the finals, 3x fmvp, 5th most playoff points

Hakeem: 2x champion, 2/3 in the finals, 2x fmvp, 11th most playoff points

Lebron: 2x champion, 2/5 in the finals, 2x fmvp, 8th most playoff points

...

Wilt: 2x champion, 2/6 in the finals, would have had 2 fmvps, 16th most playoff points

[LAZERUSS]

Mikan including his entire professional career: 7x champion, 7/7 in the finals, would have had all the fmvps had they existed and a couple of mvps if they existed too, 2nd highest per in playoff history

MJ: 6x champion, 6/6 in the finals, 6x finals mvp, highest per in playoff history, highest ppg in playoff history, most points playoff history

Russell: 11x champion, 11/12 in the finals, would had at least 6 fmvps likely more if they existed

KAJ: 6x champion, 6/10 in the finals, 2x fmvp, 2nd most playoff points

Magic: 5x champion, 5/9 in the finals, 3x fmvp, highest apg in playoff history, most assists in playoff history

Bird: 3x champion, 3/5 in the finals, 2x finals mvp, 9th most playoff points

Shaq: 4x champion, 4/6 in the finals, 3x fmvp, 4th most playoff points

Kobe: 5x champion, 5/7 in the finals, 2x fmvp, 3rd most playoff points

Duncan: 5x champion, 5/6 in the finals, 3x fmvp, 5th most playoff points

Hakeem: 2x champion, 2/3 in the finals, 2x fmvp, 11th most playoff points

Lebron: 2x champion, 2/5 in the finals, 2x fmvp, 8th most playoff points

...

Wilt: 2x champion, 2/6 in the finals, would have had 2 fmvps, 16th most playoff points

Chamberlain held a 7-2 margin over Russell in First Team All-NBA selections in their 10 years in the league together.

And, in their eight post-season series H2H's, Chamberlain outscored, outrebounded, and outshot Russell from the field in EVERY one of them. And in most of them, Chamberlain held enormous margins.

Russell's TEAMMATES outplayed Wilt's teammates, but to Chamberlain's credit, he not only demolished Russell's eight-time defending champions in one of them, he narrowly lost four other game seven's by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points. Wilt was a few points away from not only holding a 5-3 margin over Russell in post-season H2H's, he likely would have won FOUR more rings in the process. And considering that Russell went on to have his five best Finals against the Lakers in those post-seasons, and given the fact that Chamberlain just carpet-bombed LA the entire decade of the 60's...Wilt would likely hold most all Finals scoring, rebounding, and efficiency marks.

[LAZERUSS]

Forgot to add George Mikan.

George Mikan
Michael Jordan
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Larry Bird
Shaquille O'Neal
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

I don't think Wilt is greater than any of them except maybe Hakeem, maybe.

Mikan was not even the best center of his own era. Bob Kurland easily outplayed Mikan in their one college H2H game. Had Kurland gone on to play in the NBA, he likely would have had the better career.

[CavaliersFTW]

Is Wayne Gretzky a top 10 Hockey player of all-time?

[LAZERUSS]

Is Wayne Gretzky a top 10 Hockey player of all-time?

I believe Gretzky holds some 63 NHL records.

Chamberlain likely holds HUNDREDS, if not THOUSANDS of NBA records. Not only that, but Wilt holds the second best mark (as well as 3rd and 4th) in MANY of them. Furthermore, Chamberlain holds a slew of records that likely will never be approached, much less surpassed.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

top 15

[Sarcastic]

Is Wayne Gretzky a top 10 Hockey player of all-time?


Messier is obviously better, since he won a Cup with Edmonton and NY, and Gretzky never won without him. :rolleyes:

[dubeta]

If he was more dominant in the playoffs I'd rank him anywhere from 2-6

[Deuce Bigalow]

Chamberlain held a 7-2 margin over Russell in First Team All-NBA selections in their 10 years in the league together.

And, in their eight post-season series H2H's, Chamberlain outscored, outrebounded, and outshot Russell from the field in EVERY one of them. And in most of them, Chamberlain held enormous margins.

Russell's TEAMMATES outplayed Wilt's teammates, but to Chamberlain's credit, he not only demolished Russell's eight-time defending champions in one of them, he narrowly lost four other game seven's by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points. Wilt was a few points away from not only holding a 5-3 margin over Russell in post-season H2H's, he likely would have won FOUR more rings in the process. And considering that Russell went on to have his five best Finals against the Lakers in those post-seasons, and given the fact that Chamberlain just carpet-bombed LA the entire decade of the 60's...Wilt would likely hold most all Finals scoring, rebounding, and efficiency marks.
All-NBA teams are regular season awards.

Russell with a 9-1 championship advantage and voted GOAT in 1980.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Mikan was not even the best center of his own era. Bob Kurland easily outplayed Mikan in their one college H2H game. Had Kurland gone on to play in the NBA, he likely would have had the better career.
Mikan was named the greatest player of the first half century in 1950.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I believe Gretzky holds some 63 NHL records.

Chamberlain likely holds HUNDREDS, if not THOUSANDS of NBA records. Not only that, but Wilt holds the second best mark (as well as 3rd and 4th) in MANY of them. Furthermore, Chamberlain holds a slew of records that likely will never be approached, much less surpassed.
The league will never again approach such infancy or return to that kind of pace in his era. Jordan, Magic, and Russell hold all the important Playoff records.

[LAZERUSS]

All-NBA teams are regular season awards.

Russell with a 9-1 championship advantage and voted GOAT in 1980.

Russell was voted GOAT in 1980 by a panel of SPORTSWRITERS. Guess what? Evidently NONE of them actually SAW Russell and Wilt play, did they? Why? Because it was SPORTSWRITERS who actually voted for First-Team All-NBA selections in the decade of the 60's, when Chamberlain OVERWHELMED Russell in the yearly voting by a staggering 7-2 margin in their ten seasons in the league together.

Oh, and in 1999, ESPN voted Chamberlain well ahead of Russell in their Sports Century segment.

And again, Russell and Wilt faced off 49 times in the post-season, and you would be hard-pressed to find much more than a handful of games in which Russell outplayed Wilt. The REALITY was, the two went H2H in eight post-season series, and Wilt either outplayed, or downright ANNIHILATED Russell in ALL of them.

Had they swapped rosters, and it would have been Wilt holding all the rings.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Nope. Weak era.

LeBron
Mikan
Shaq
Jordan
Bird
Magic
Pippen
Gasol
Duncan
Hakeem

[Artillery]

He's not too different than Kobe. Stat-padder that only cares about scoring. Cared too much for his legacy while he was still playing. Fake tough guy. Overrated just like the black mamba.

[Mr Exlax]

I rate my top 10 by peak level and sustained dominance. Rings I don't too much care about because it's a team accolade. I have him in my top 10 though. Top 5 to be completely honest.

[mehyaM24]

i have wilt in my top 10 - but definitely in the lower tier with ZERO case for GOAT. too many postseason blunders along with a huge postseason dropoff per points, rebounds and assists. in fact, his playoffs numbers are nowhere in the vicinity of the REAL goat candidates - shaq, kareem, magic, and russell

http://i42.tinypic.com/2vdk20k.gif

^^^^ wilt could never run the break and finish over elite defenses.

[Asukal]

Top 10? Sure, those records have to account for something and he did win at least 2. Top 5 is where he doesn't belong. :rockon:

[jongib369]

i have wilt in my top 10 - but definitely in the lower tier with ZERO case for GOAT. too many postseason blunders along with a huge postseason dropoff per points, rebounds and assists. in fact, his playoffs numbers are nowhere in the vicinity of the REAL goat candidates - shaq, kareem, magic, and russell

http://i42.tinypic.com/2vdk20k.gif

^^^^ wilt could never run the break and finish over elite defenses.
So you don't think someone who was faster than Shaq and on the Harlem Globetrotters could possibly do that in an era with less strict dribbling rules? Not to sound as if I'm downplaying how incredible Shaq was

[LAZERUSS]

i have wilt in my top 10 - but definitely in the lower tier with ZERO case for GOAT. too many postseason blunders along with a huge postseason dropoff per points, rebounds and assists. in fact, his playoffs numbers are nowhere in the vicinity of the REAL goat candidates - shaq, kareem, magic, and russell

http://i42.tinypic.com/2vdk20k.gif

^^^^ wilt could never run the break and finish over elite defenses.

Give me Wilt's "post-season blunders?" I want series in which he played horrifically, and I also want his opposing centers numbers, as well. Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain ELEVATED his rebounding in the post-season, and was NEVER outrebounded by ANY opposing center.

A prime "scoring" Wilt had post-seasons of 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg. He also had post-season series of 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and 38.7 ppg. A prime "scoring" Wilt battled the GOAT defensive center (and SWARMING Celtics) five times, and averaged 30.5, 33.6 ppg, 29.2 ppg, 30.1 ppg, and 28.0 ppg. A "scoring" Wilt played in 52 post-season games, and had THIRTEEN 40+ point games...or a 20% ratio. Included were FOUR 50+ point games, THREE of which were the ONLY 50+ MUST-WIN post-season games in NBA history (and one of those was against RUSSELL.)

How about Wilt's DEFENSE? Russell had post-season series against Wilt of .399, .397, .386, and .358. In his three post-season series against Thurmond, Chamberlain held Nate to .392, .373, and .343.

How about HOFer Walt Bellamy in the '68 EDF's? Keep in mind that Bellamy had shot .541 against the NBA during the regular season. Against Wilt? .421 (oh and Wilt badly outscored him, badly outrebounded him, badly out-assisted him, and shot .584 from the floor against him.)

How about a PEAK Kareem in '71? KAJ had averaged 31.7 ppg on a .577 FG% against the NBA in the regular season. Against a 34 year old Wilt (who was one year removed from major knee surgery)... 25.0 ppg on a .481 FG%.

How about a PEAK KAJ in the '72 ECF's? Kareem had averaged 34.8 ppg on a .574 FG% against the NBA. Against Wilt? 33.7 ppg on a .457 FG%...which included a .414 FG% in the last four critical games of that series.

Shaq? He was SWEPT SIX times (and was one Kobe miracle shot away from SEVEN.) He had a series against Ostertage, forcryingoutloud, in which his team was crushed, and he averaged 23 ppg on a .492 FG%.

Against the Robinson-led Spurs from '99 thru '03? A steep DECLINE in scoring and efficiency. How come?

Shaq's high game? 61 points against a 12-47 Clippers team that started a complete bust, in Olawakandi, for 14 minutes, and then proceeded to defend Shaq with under-sized forwards. Oh, and in that blowout win, Shaq played 45 minutes.

Chamberlain had games of 73 against Bellamy, and 62 against Russell.

And had a prime Wilt had the good fortune to have faced the likes of Smits and McCullough in the Finals, he would surely have shattered all the scoring records.

Shaq was NEVER the scorer, rebounder, passer, defender, or shot-blocker that Wilt was. Hell, a 36 year old Chamberlain, in his LAST post-season, covering 17 games, averaged 22.5 rpg...in a post-season NBA that averaged 50.6 rpg. And he was blocking 7+ shots per game while doing so.

And while Shaq won ten FG% titles, compared to Wilt's nine...he did so in 19 seasons. Given the fact that Wilt led the NBA in FG% in his last two seasons (and set the all-time record in his LAST season), is there any doubt that Chamberlain would hold that record, as well?

Chamberlain won SEVEN scoring titles...Shaq, two. Chamberlain won ELEVEN rebounding titles...Shaq..uh..ZERO. All-Defensive teams did not begin until 1969, and even then, in his last two seasons, Chamberlain was voted first-team all-defense....Shaq..uh...NONE. Shot-blocking? In his LAST season, and before the NBA actually "officially" recorded blocked shots, Chamberlain averaged 5.4 bpg. And he certainly had many seasons way above that. Shaq's BEST season in bpg? 3.5. Even more laughable....Shaq averaged 2.1 bpg in his 216 playoff games. His best post-season was at 3.0. Just using Wilt's KNOWN games, he had post-seasons of 7+, and if we had all of those games, it would have been considerably higher.

Look, I am a big Shaq fan. IMHO, he was easily the best center of the 90's and 00's. BUT, he was no Chamberlain.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Russell was voted GOAT in 1980 by a panel of SPORTSWRITERS. Guess what? Evidently NONE of them actually SAW Russell and Wilt play, did they? Why? Because it was SPORTSWRITERS who actually voted for First-Team All-NBA selections in the decade of the 60's, when Chamberlain OVERWHELMED Russell in the yearly voting by a staggering 7-2 margin in their ten seasons in the league together.

Oh, and in 1999, ESPN voted Chamberlain well ahead of Russell in their Sports Century segment.

And again, Russell and Wilt faced off 49 times in the post-season, and you would be hard-pressed to find much more than a handful of games in which Russell outplayed Wilt. The REALITY was, the two went H2H in eight post-season series, and Wilt either outplayed, or downright ANNIHILATED Russell in ALL of them.

Had they swapped rosters, and it would have been Wilt holding all the rings.
What part of All-NBA teams being REGULAR SEASON AWARDS do you not understand?

[Asukal]

What part of All-NBA teams being REGULAR SEASON AWARDS do you not understand?

Laz is in denial. He refuses to see that Wilt is a regular season warrior and nothing beyond that.

30->22->18 :oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Give me Wilt's "post-season blunders?" I want series in which he played horrifically, and I also want his opposing centers numbers, as well. Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain ELEVATED his rebounding in the post-season, and was NEVER outrebounded by ANY opposing center.

A prime "scoring" Wilt had post-seasons of 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg. He also had post-season series of 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and 38.7 ppg. A prime "scoring" Wilt battled the GOAT defensive center (and SWARMING Celtics) five times, and averaged 30.5, 33.6 ppg, 29.2 ppg, 30.1 ppg, and 28.0 ppg. A "scoring" Wilt played in 52 post-season games, and had THIRTEEN 40+ point games...or a 20% ratio. Included were FOUR 50+ point games, THREE of which were the ONLY 50+ MUST-WIN post-season games in NBA history (and one of those was against RUSSELL.)

How about Wilt's DEFENSE? Russell had post-season series against Wilt of .399, .397, .386, and .358. In his three post-season series against Thurmond, Chamberlain held Nate to .392, .373, and .343.

How about HOFer Walt Bellamy in the '68 EDF's? Keep in mind that Bellamy had shot .541 against the NBA during the regular season. Against Wilt? .421 (oh and Wilt badly outscored him, badly outrebounded him, badly out-assisted him, and shot .584 from the floor against him.)

How about a PEAK Kareem in '71? KAJ had averaged 31.7 ppg on a .577 FG% against the NBA in the regular season. Against a 34 year old Wilt (who was one year removed from major knee surgery)... 25.0 ppg on a .481 FG%.

How about a PEAK KAJ in the '72 ECF's? Kareem had averaged 34.8 ppg on a .574 FG% against the NBA. Against Wilt? 33.7 ppg on a .457 FG%...which included a .414 FG% in the last four critical games of that series.

Shaq? He was SWEPT SIX times (and was one Kobe miracle shot away from SEVEN.) He had a series against Ostertage, forcryingoutloud, in which his team was crushed, and he averaged 23 ppg on a .492 FG%.

Against the Robinson-led Spurs from '99 thru '03? A steep DECLINE in scoring and efficiency. How come?

Shaq's high game? 61 points against a 12-47 Clippers team that started a complete bust, in Olawakandi, for 14 minutes, and then proceeded to defend Shaq with under-sized forwards. Oh, and in that blowout win, Shaq played 45 minutes.

Chamberlain had games of 73 against Bellamy, and 62 against Russell.

And had a prime Wilt had the good fortune to have faced the likes of Smits and McCullough in the Finals, he would surely have shattered all the scoring records.

Shaq was NEVER the scorer, rebounder, passer, defender, or shot-blocker that Wilt was. Hell, a 36 year old Chamberlain, in his LAST post-season, covering 17 games, averaged 22.5 rpg...in a post-season NBA that averaged 50.6 rpg. And he was blocking 7+ shots per game while doing so.

And while Shaq won ten FG% titles, compared to Wilt's nine...he did so in 19 seasons. Given the fact that Wilt led the NBA in FG% in his last two seasons (and set the all-time record in his LAST season), is there any doubt that Chamberlain would hold that record, as well?

Chamberlain won SEVEN scoring titles...Shaq, two. Chamberlain won ELEVEN rebounding titles...Shaq..uh..ZERO. All-Defensive teams did not begin until 1969, and even then, in his last two seasons, Chamberlain was voted first-team all-defense....Shaq..uh...NONE. Shot-blocking? In his LAST season, and before the NBA actually "officially" recorded blocked shots, Chamberlain averaged 5.4 bpg. And he certainly had many seasons way above that. Shaq's BEST season in bpg? 3.5. Even more laughable....Shaq averaged 2.1 bpg in his 216 playoff games. His best post-season was at 3.0. Just using Wilt's KNOWN games, he had post-seasons of 7+, and if we had all of those games, it would have been considerably higher.

Look, I am a big Shaq fan. IMHO, he was easily the best center of the 90's and 00's. BUT, he was no Chamberlain.
38/17/2 61%
33/16/5 57%
36/12/4 60%

3 straight championships and fmvps

Wilt could only dream :oldlol:

[LAZERUSS]

What part of All-NBA teams being REGULAR SEASON AWARDS do you not understand?

Give me a list of playoff series' in which Wilt was outplayed by Russell. You won't find ANY.

If you are claiming that Russell's TEAMs were better...you won't get an argument from me, nor even John Wooden (RIP.)

Chamberlain was clearly the better player...in regular seasons, in post-seasons, and in H2H's.

[LAZERUSS]

38/17/2 61%
33/16/5 57%
36/12/4 60%

3 straight championships and fmvps

Wilt could only dream :oldlol:

A span of 15 games....10 of which were against centers that a prime Chamberlain would have averaged 40+ ppg against. And in the other five games, Mutombo averaged 17 ppg on a .600 FG% against Shaq.

How about Shaq against Robinson in their post-season H2H's? His scoring and effciency declined considerably...and this was against an aging to a retiring Admiral. How come his numbers declined?

And yet, Chamberlain faced Bellamy in 10, Thurmond in 17, Reed in 18, a peak Kareem in 11, and Russell in 49. Or over 100 of his 160 playoff games. And he a "scoring" Wilt battled Russell and the Dynasty in 30 of his 52 playoff games...and STILL averaged a 33-27- .505 FG% (and nearly 10% above the league average.)

Had a prime Wilt had the chance to face the likes of Smits and McCullough...well, the Finals scoring marks would probably look completely different than they do today.

[Psileas]

Yeah, Wilt could only dream of having to face past prime Rik Smits, past prime Mutombo and prime (lol) Todd MacCulloch in the most important series of his whole career. :oldlol:
Remember Shaq's 38/17/60% series against prime Duncan or prime Hakeem? Yeah, me neither. :oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wilt could never muster up a single 30 ppg finals series against 6'10" Russell in '64 and '69, or against 6'9" Willis Reed in '70 and '73, or against 6'8" Jerry Lucas when Reed was out in '72.

Shaq in '00 faced 7'4" Rik Smiths, in '01 faced 7'2" Mutombo, and in '02 faced a 7'0" Todd MacCulloch.

Remember Wilt having a dominant playoff run like Shaq? Or winning 4 championships? Yeah, me neither.

[Lebron23]

i have wilt in my top 10 - but definitely in the lower tier with ZERO case for GOAT. too many postseason blunders along with a huge postseason dropoff per points, rebounds and assists. in fact, his playoffs numbers are nowhere in the vicinity of the REAL goat candidates - shaq, kareem, magic, and russell

http://i42.tinypic.com/2vdk20k.gif

^^^^ wilt could never run the break and finish over elite defenses.

Prime shaq was a beast

[riseagainst]

i have wilt in my top 10 - but definitely in the lower tier with ZERO case for GOAT. too many postseason blunders along with a huge postseason dropoff per points, rebounds and assists. in fact, his playoffs numbers are nowhere in the vicinity of the REAL goat candidates - shaq, kareem, magic, and russell

http://i42.tinypic.com/2vdk20k.gif

^^^^ wilt could never run the break and finish over elite defenses.

where's MJ? 33-6-6 in the post season for his career.

[CavaliersFTW]

i have wilt in my top 10 - but definitely in the lower tier with ZERO case for GOAT. too many postseason blunders along with a huge postseason dropoff per points, rebounds and assists. in fact, his playoffs numbers are nowhere in the vicinity of the REAL goat candidates - shaq, kareem, magic, and russell

http://i42.tinypic.com/2vdk20k.gif

^^^^ wilt could never run the break and finish over elite defenses.
What elite defense? That's a fast break... fast breaks by definition are run "Before a defense has a chance to get set."

Wilt as a teenager was starting and running even more impressive fast breaks than that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmBc8NX_oL8

2% of his career exists on film... yet can still be observed doing shit more impressive than a guy who played 19 seasons and who's entire career exists on film :lol

[jongib369]

What elite defense? That's a fast break... fast breaks by definition are run "Before a defense has a chance to get set."

Wilt as a teenager was starting and running even more impressive fast breaks than that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmBc8NX_oL8

2% of his career exists on film... yet can still be observed doing shit more impressive than a guy who played 19 seasons and who's entire career exists on film :lol
Sure what Shaq did looks cool and is incredible, but why waste energy when you can do this? :confusedshrug:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mACsGazC2-U

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt could never muster up a single 30 ppg finals series against 6'10" Russell in '64 and '69, or against 6'9" Willis Reed in '70 and '73, or against 6'8" Jerry Lucas when Reed was out in '72.

Shaq in '00 faced 7'4" Rik Smiths, in '01 faced 7'2" Mutombo, and in '02 faced a 7'0" Todd MacCulloch.

Remember Wilt having a dominant playoff run like Shaq? Or winning 4 championships? Yeah, me neither.


Chamberlain had MULTIPLE series against Russell of 30+ ppg, and in his one Finals in his PRIME, he averaged 29.2 ppg on a .517 FG% in a post-season NBA that shot an eFG% of .420.

Wilt dominated a PEAK Thurmond in his '67 Finals, and clearly could have scored more had been asked to do so.

The only other Finals in which Chamberlain played before ripping his knee, was in '69. And it was perhaps the biggest coaching blunder of all-time in that Finals. How bad a coach was VBK? He resigned almost immediately after a game seven disaster, only because he knew the ax was coming shortly.

Chamberlain played in three more Finals...ALL at ages 33-36, and on a surgically repaired knee. In one of them, he hung the ONLY 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA history (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and on a .625 FG%.)

At age 35 he won the FMVP with a 19 ppg, 23 rpg, .600, 7 bpg Finals.

And in his last season, at age 36, he averaged 11-19 .525.

Meanwhile Shaq had a three year run with a stacked Laker team that Kobe carried into the Finals in two of them (and Shaq was considerably below his normal numbers against Robinson and SA in the last two.) This was a PEAK Shaq facing an inept Smits, a complete clod in McCullough, and a past-his-peak Mutombo.

How about a 33 year old Shaq in his '06 Finals? Did he put up a 23-24 .625 Finals (and on one leg)? Hell no! How about a 13.7 ppg, 10.2 rpg, .607 FG% (and .292 FT% BTW) and in 34 mpg. Oh, and his counterpart, the great Erick Dampier? In 24 mpg, Dampier averaged 5 ppg, 8 rpg, and shot .722 from the field. Again, where was a DOMINATING Shaq at age 33?

A 36 year old Wilt carried his team into the Finals, averaged 11 ppg, 19 rpg, and shot .525. In fact, in the entire post-season, this 36 year old averaged 22.5 rpg, in a post-season NBA that averaged 50.6 rpg. And that 22.5 rpg just BLOWS AWAY any post-season rebounding mark since. And during the season, a 36 year old Wilt led the league in rebounding, set a FG% mark that will probably stand forever, blocked 5.4 shots per game, and was voted First team All-Defense.

Now, tell me how well a 36 year old Shaq was doing? Oh wait...he was didn't make the playoffs, and was basically a shell.

Of course, had a PRIME Chamberlain not had to battle the greatest dynasty in NBA history, and the greatest defensive center in NBA history (and his SWARMING teammates), and instead, would have faced the Lakers in the Finals FIVE times like Russell did in the 60's...then Wilt would EASILY have put up "Shaq-like" Finals.

[Psileas]

Chamberlain had MULTIPLE series against Russell of 30+ ppg, and in his one Finals in his PRIME, he averaged 29.2 ppg on a .517 FG% in a post-season NBA that shot an eFG% of .420.

Wilt dominated a PEAK Thurmond in his '67 Finals, and clearly could have scored more had been asked to do so.

The only other Finals in which Chamberlain played before ripping his knee, was in '69. And it was perhaps the biggest coaching blunder of all-time in that Finals. How bad a coach was VBK? He resigned almost immediately after a game seven disaster, only because he knew the ax was coming shortly.

Chamberlain played in three more Finals...ALL at ages 33-36, and on a surgically repaired knee. In one of them, he hung the ONLY 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA history (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and on a .625 FG%.)

At age 35 he won the FMVP with a 19 ppg, 23 rpg, .600, 7 bpg Finals.

And in his last season, at age 36, he averaged 11-19 .525.

Meanwhile Shaq had a three year run with a stacked Laker team that Kobe carried into the Finals in two of them (and Shaq was considerably below his normal numbers against Robinson and SA in the last two.) This was a PEAK Shaq facing an inept Smits, a complete clod in McCullough, and a past-his-peak Mutombo.

How about a 33 year old Shaq in his '06 Finals? Did he put up a 23-24 .625 Finals (and on one leg)? Hell no! How about a 13.7 ppg, 10.2 rpg, .607 FG% (and .292 FT% BTW) and in 34 mpg. Oh, and his counterpart, the great Erick Dampier? In 24 mpg, Dampier averaged 5 ppg, 8 rpg, and shot .722 from the field. Again, where was a DOMINATING Shaq at age 33?

A 36 year old Wilt carried his team into the Finals, averaged 11 ppg, 19 rpg, and shot .525. In fact, in the entire post-season, this 36 year old averaged 22.5 rpg, in a post-season NBA that averaged 50.6 rpg. And that 22.5 rpg just BLOWS AWAY any post-season rebounding mark since. And during the season, a 36 year old Wilt led the league in rebounding, set a FG% mark that will probably stand forever, blocked 5.4 shots per game, and was voted First team All-Defense.

Now, tell me how well a 36 year old Shaq was doing? Oh wait...he was didn't make the playoffs, and was basically a shell.

Of course, had a PRIME Chamberlain not had to battle the greatest dynasty in NBA history, and the greatest defensive center in NBA history (and his SWARMING teammates), and instead, would have faced the Lakers in the Finals FIVE times like Russell did in the 60's...then Wilt would EASILY have put up "Shaq-like" Finals.

Lol, dude was using now height arguments? :facepalm :oldlol: Yeah, as if I didn't know that Rik Smits and McCulloch are taller than Hakeem or Duncan, but guess who made All-D teams. Surprising, but not the first group...But, since he loves heights, the Nationals frequently used 7-3 Halbrook on Wilt in '61 and Wilt "only" averaged 37.0 ppg - 23.0 rpg (oh, wait, the Warriors lost, so that wasn't a dominant series...). Do I remember Wilt having dominant playoff runs like Shaq? Yes, I do remember that Wilt has played in the playoffs...

[Deuce Bigalow]

Lol, dude was using now height arguments? :facepalm :oldlol: Yeah, as if I didn't know that Rik Smits and McCulloch are taller than Hakeem or Duncan, but guess who made All-D teams. Surprising, but not the first group...But, since he loves heights, the Nationals frequently used 7-3 Halbrook on Wilt in '61 and Wilt "only" averaged 37.0 ppg - 23.0 rpg (oh, wait, the Warriors lost, so that wasn't a dominant series...). Do I remember Wilt having dominant playoff runs like Shaq? Yes, I do remember that Wilt has played in the playoffs...
37.0 ppg on 32.0 fga and 2.0 apg is not dominant. Not only did his team lose, they were swept while having HCA and the team they lost to had a record below .500

Also wasn't Mutumbo the DPOY that year?

[LAZERUSS]

Lol, dude was using now height arguments? :facepalm :oldlol: Yeah, as if I didn't know that Rik Smits and McCulloch are taller than Hakeem or Duncan, but guess who made All-D teams. Surprising, but not the first group...But, since he loves heights, the Nationals frequently used 7-3 Halbrook on Wilt in '61 and Wilt "only" averaged 37.0 ppg - 23.0 rpg (oh, wait, the Warriors lost, so that wasn't a dominant series...). Do I remember Wilt having dominant playoff runs like Shaq? Yes, I do remember that Wilt has played in the playoffs...

Shaq faced a 6-7 Ben Wallace in the '04 Finals, and was easily outrebounded (and wasn't close to a 38 ppg Finals either.) Oh, and his heavily-favored team lost that series, 4-1. He was swept by the Bulls in '96, in a series in which th 6-8 Rodman badly outrebounded him (and shut him down defensively, as well.)

Of course, when he faced a towering 7-2 Greg Ostertag (a shorter equivalent to Halbrook) in '97, he averaged 22 ppg, 10 rpg, and shot .494 from the field...in a 4-1 series loss. In fact, Ostertag held an 8-1 post-season W-L record against Shaq. So, while the Wilt-bashers rip Wilt for losing to Russell (and most all were in close series defeats), Ostertag just annihilated Shaq in their H2H's. After all, W-L records are held against Wilt...so naturally, we can do the same to Shaq.

The next time someone mentions Russell's 11-2...how about Ostertag's 8-1.

[mehyaM24]

So you don't think someone who was faster than Shaq and on the Harlem Globetrotters could possibly do that in an era with less strict dribbling rules? Not to sound as if I'm downplaying how incredible Shaq was

i dont believe shaq was faster - but more coordinated, skilled and mobile. his game tape looks a lot easier on the eyes, and just more impressive all around.

of course, everyone sees these the 2 as MDE - and while many of you are quick to say wilt (largely due to stats), i challenge you to take a closer look and see WHY shaq has a better case for that title.

in wilt's era, there was nobody on the level shaq offensively. bill russell, arguably the greatest defender, was his greatest foe but his absolute best competition were players not just a couple inches shorter - but none even half as good.oth, shaq has faced some the greatest bigs and individual defenders in league history: hakeem, drob, duncan, mutumbo, ewing, ben wallace etc. shaq played in the golden era of big men. shaq dominated in a tougher time than wilt (smaller lane).

i expect some rebuttal with stats - no, shaq wasn't able to drop 100 points or 50 rebounds in a game, but he was still able to get 40+ points in 47 regular season games in his career, have the most dominant finals averages of anyone ever (peak) and was a much, MUCH better postseason performer.

yeah, alright, no where near Wilt's 271, but I want to keep emphasizing how little competition he had in his time.

IF shaq and wilt had been in the same time period as each other, shaq would have put up better numbers, because he was more equipped to handle tougher defenses and skilled players.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/3297589/shaq-breaks-backboard-o.gif

http://rs304.pbsrc.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/Shaquille%20Oneal/VS/Dikembe%20Mutombo/mutomboshaq6.gif~c200

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/Shaquille%20Oneal/VS/Dikembe%20Mutombo/b05425cf.gif~original

https://38.media.tumblr.com/7f27534fb4ef77267b6596b9624a7f74/tumblr_mj9bmwihhX1rvjkleo1_500.gif

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view2/2283075/shaq-lakers-o.gif

^wilt never had this power and speed IN GAME. shaq was quite a bit more polished in the post as well.

[-23-]

A span of 15 games....10 of which were against centers that a prime Chamberlain would have averaged 40+ ppg against. And in the other five games, Mutombo averaged 17 ppg on a .600 FG% against Shaq.

How about Shaq against Robinson in their post-season H2H's? His scoring and effciency declined considerably...and this was against an aging to a retiring Admiral. How come his numbers declined?

And yet, Chamberlain faced Bellamy in 10, Thurmond in 17, Reed in 18, a peak Kareem in 11, and Russell in 49. Or over 100 of his 160 playoff games. And he a "scoring" Wilt battled Russell and the Dynasty in 30 of his 52 playoff games...and STILL averaged a 33-27- .505 FG% (and nearly 10% above the league average.)

Had a prime Wilt had the chance to face the likes of Smits and McCullough...well, the Finals scoring marks would probably look completely different than they do today.

Pure conjecture and bullshit.

[Marchesk]

in wilt's era, there was nobody on the level shaq offensively.

Bellamy did average 31.6 as a rookie, and led the league in FG% that season.

[B-hoop]

Bellamy sucked, he never amounted to anything

[JellyBean]

I have been saying this for the last year or so, pretty soon somebody on that list is going to get bumped. I just never thought that it would be Wilt! To me, Wilt is one of the 10 greatest NBA players of all-time.

[Marchesk]

I have been saying this for the last year or so, pretty soon somebody on that list is going to get bumped. I just never thought that it would be Wilt! To me, Wilt is one of the 10 greatest NBA players of all-time.

Wilt, Russell and Jordan and Kareem aren't getting bumped from the the top 10 for the next 50 years. Unless we have cyborgs and genetically enhanced humans, in which case they'll probably make two lists. Think about all the great players who came after Wilt and Russell, and those two are still consensus top 5.