Only 4 players have ever scored 35 ppg in a single NBA Season

[Iceman#44]

What topic said.

Wilt did it 5 times, MJ 2, Kobe 1 and Rick Barry 1.

HIGHEST SINGLE-SEASON AVERAGE:

50.4 - Wilt Chamberlain (1961-1962)
44.8 - Wilt Chamberlain (1962-1963)
38.4 - Wilt Chamberlain (1960-1961)
37.6 - Wilt Chamberlain (1959-1960)
37.1 - Michael Jordan (1986-1987)
36.9 - Wilt Chamberlain (1963-1964)
35.6 - Rick Barry (1966-1967)
35.4 - Kobe Bryant (2005-2006)
35.0 - Michael Jordan (1987-1988)


Wilt:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Element]

Kobe played at by far the slowest pace on that list, too. That means he got to play tougher defenses and didn't get nearly as many transition and semi-transition looks

103-105 in the 1980's would be considered a low scoring game, lol

[Rick James]

Rick Barry was most impressive out of the bunch because he lacked the athletic ability compared to those guys. But what he lacked in athleticism he made up for in smarts and hustle. In that same year he avg over 9 reb a game at the height of 6-7'.

[Collie]

Elgin did this as well

[Iceman#44]

Elgin did this as well


Well during that 61-62 season Elgin played just 48 games, so is not valid at all...as a matter of fact he was not even eligible for the scoring race, that why he is not on the list.

[Iceman#44]

Rick Barry was most impressive out of the bunch because he lacked the athletic ability compared to those guys. But what he lacked in athleticism he made up for in smarts and hustle. In that same year he avg over 9 reb a game at the height of 6-7'.


Rick Barry scores 35.6 ppg in 66-67 season, when he was 22 years old.
Then he scores 30.6 ppg in 74-75 season, when he was 30. That's an 8 years span between the 1st and last time he hits 30ppg, not bad at all.:applause:

[Haymaker]

Kobe played at by far the slowest pace on that list, too. That means he got to play tougher defenses and didn't get nearly as many transition and semi-transition looks

103-105 in the 1980's would be considered a low scoring game, lol

Without even verifying I'm gonna say that Kobe had the worst efficiency in that list.

[Vienceslav]

Without even verifying I'm gonna say that Kobe had the worst efficiency in that list.
Barry shot .451
Kobe shot .450
If you watched some of the Laker games that season .450 is still a pretty good number with the horrible shots Kobe was taking.

[Kblaze8855]

Well during that 61-62 season Elgin played just 48 games, so is not valid at all...as a matter of fact he was not even eligible for the scoring race, that why he is not on the list.

I dont think we should exclude him just because he was serving in the military and only playing when they would let him......


Not like he was injured or anything.

[Iceman#44]

Yeah but he was not elegible for scoring race...this is what matters i think...

[Kblaze8855]

At the time the leader was decided by total not averages. Elvin Hayes and Kareem had a bit of an argument over that issue in the early 70s....

And even these days the minimum is 70 games...OR 1400 points. And he had like 1800 that year.

[Psileas]

Well during that 61-62 season Elgin played just 48 games, so is not valid at all...as a matter of fact he was not even eligible for the scoring race, that why he is not on the list.

I don't find it correct that he isn't. I thought there was a limit of games played or (not "and") points scored that a player should exceed to make himself eligible and, while 48 games aren't many, his 1836 points should be enough to cover this.

[Psileas]

At the time the leader was decided by total not averages. Elvin Hayes and Kareem had a bit of an argument over that issue in the early 70s....

And even these days the minimum is 70 games...OR 1400 points. And he had like 1800 that year.

Damn, same time, same point.

[boozehound]

how did each of these players do in the playoffs that year?

[Iceman#44]

how did each of these players do in the playoffs that year?



50.4 - Wilt Chamberlain (1961-1962) -> 35.0 ppg in playoffs
44.8 - Wilt Chamberlain (1962-1963) -> not made playoffs
38.4 - Wilt Chamberlain (1960-1961) -> 37.0 ppg in playoffs
37.6 - Wilt Chamberlain (1959-1960) -> 33.2 ppg in playoffs
37.1 - Michael Jordan (1986-1987) -> 35.7 ppg in playoffs
36.9 - Wilt Chamberlain (1963-1964) -> 34.7 ppg in playoffs
35.6 - Rick Barry (1966-1967) -> 34.7 ppg in playoffs
35.4 - Kobe Bryant (2005-2006) -> 27.9 ppg in playoffs
35.0 - Michael Jordan (1987-1988) -> 36.3 ppg in playoffs

[Deuce Bigalow]

Without even verifying I'm gonna say that Kobe had the worst efficiency in that list.
Wrong

1987-88 MJ: 60.3 TS%
1986-87 MJ: 56.2 TS%
2005-06 Kobe: 55.9 TS%
1962-63 Wilt: 55.0 TS%
1963-64 Wilt: 53.7 TS%
1961-62 Wilt: 53.6 TS%
1966-67 Barry: 53.1 TS%
1960-61 Wilt: 51.9 TS%
1959-60 Wilt: 49.3 TS%

[Iceman#44]

I don't find it correct that he isn't. I thought there was a limit of games played or (not "and") points scored that a player should exceed to make himself eligible and, while 48 games aren't many, his 1836 points should be enough to cover this.


Well, i know that during those years the leader was decided by total and not averages. BUT. If you take a look at the OFFICIAL NBA GUIDE, in the Regular Season Record section, you will find this:

HIGHEST AVERAGE, POINTS PER GAME, SEASON:
(minimum: 70 games)
50.4—Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia, 1961-62 (4,029/80)
44.8—Wilt Chamberlain, San Francisco, 1962-63 (3,586/80)
38.4—Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia, 1960-61 (3,033/79)
37.6—Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia, 1959-60 (2,707/72)
37.1—Michael Jordan, Chicago, 1986-87 (3,041/82)


http://www.nba.com/.element/mp3/2.0/sect/podcastmp3/PDF/2012-13-Media-Guide.pdf


Looks like the 62 season of Baylor cannot make the list. For the NBA is not valid for the Record book.

[aj1987]

Wrong

1987-88 MJ: 60.3 TS%
1986-87 MJ: 56.2 TS%
2005-06 Kobe: 55.9 TS%
1962-63 Wilt: 55.0 TS%
1963-64 Wilt: 53.7 TS%
1961-62 Wilt: 53.6 TS%
1966-67 Barry: 53.1 TS%
1960-61 Wilt: 51.9 TS%
1959-60 Wilt: 49.3 TS%
:biggums:

Can you do points per possession? A sub 50% TS for a top 3 GOAT center? Damn!

[riseagainst]

Without even verifying I'm gonna say that Kobe had the worst efficiency in that list.

good thing you were just taking a guess, because you were wrong.

[riseagainst]

:biggums:

Can you do points per possession? A sub 50% TS for a top 3 GOAT center? Damn!

TS is essentially points per possession.

[Deuce Bigalow]

:biggums:

Can you do points per possession? A sub 50% TS for a top 3 GOAT center? Damn!
Points per shot?

59-60: 1.17
60-61: 1.23

Wilt's not a top 3 center - Russell, Kareem, Shaq >

[Psileas]

[QUOTE=Iceman#44]Well, i know that during those years the leader was decided by total and not averages. BUT. If you take a look at the OFFICIAL NBA GUIDE, in the Regular Season Record section, you will find this:

HIGHEST AVERAGE, POINTS PER GAME, SEASON:
(minimum: 70 games)
50.4

[pauk]

#1. 37.1 PPG - Michael Jordan (1986-1987) @ 40 mpg, Pace/Poss = 95.8

#2. 35.4 PPG - Kobe Bryant (2005-2006) @ 41 mpg, Pace/Poss = 90.9

#3. 35.0 PPG - Michael Jordan (1987-1988) @ 40 mpg, Pace/Poss = 95.5

#4. 50.4 PPG - Wilt Chamberlain (1961-1962) @ 49 mpg, Pace/Poss = ~140

#5. 44.8 PPG - Wilt Chamberlain (1962-1963) @ 48 mpg, Pace/Poss = ~140

#6. 38.4 PPG - Wilt Chamberlain (1960-1961) @ 48 mpg, Pace/Poss = ~140

#7. 37.6 PPG - Wilt Chamberlain (1959-1960) @ 46 mpg, Pace/poss = ~140

#8. 35.6 PPG - Rick Barry (1966-1967) @ 41 mpg, Pace/Poss = ~130

#9. 36.9 PPG - Wilt Chamberlain (1963-1964) @ 46 mpg, Pace/poss = ~140



Fixed. :cheers: Those were just those 9 guys/seasons you mentioned, but there are a couple of more guys who scored better than Wilt based on Pace/Possessions Per Game.... the pace/poss. p.g. decreased every decade from the 60s up until today where it is at its absolute lowest in NBA history (unfortunately it does have to do with evolution of basketball in terms of competition/skill/talent/athleticism on both ends of the floor)... It does play a huge factor, the more possessions you have the more opportunities you have to shoot, rebound, assist, steal, block..... Some teams in the 60s had up to a whopping 50% higher pace compared to today....

[riseagainst]

#1. 37.1 PPG - Michael Jordan (1986-1987) @ 40 mpg, Pace/Poss = 95.8

#2. 35.4 PPG - Kobe Bryant (2005-2006) @ 41 mpg, Pace/Poss = 90.9

#3. 35.0 PPG - Michael Jordan (1987-1988) @ 40 mpg, Pace/Poss = 95.5

#4. 50.4 PPG - Wilt Chamberlain (1961-1962) @ 49 mpg, Pace/Poss = ~140

#5. 44.8 PPG - Wilt Chamberlain (1962-1963) @ 48 mpg, Pace/Poss = ~140

#6. 38.4 PPG - Wilt Chamberlain (1960-1961) @ 48 mpg, Pace/Poss = ~140

#7. 37.6 PPG - Wilt Chamberlain (1959-1960) @ 46 mpg, Pace/poss = ~140

#8. 35.6 PPG - Rick Barry (1966-1967) @ 41 mpg, Pace/Poss = ~130

#9. 36.9 PPG - Wilt Chamberlain (1963-1964) @ 46 mpg, Pace/poss = ~140



Fixed. :cheers: Those were just those 9 guys/seasons you mentioned, but there are a couple of more guys who scored better than Wilt based on Pace/Possessions Per Game.... the pace/poss. p.g. decreased every decade from the 60s up until today where it is at its absolute lowest in NBA history... It does play a huge factor, the more possessions you have the more opportunities you have to shoot, rebound, assist, steal, block..... Some teams in the 60s had up to a whopping 50% higher pace compared to today....


140.

:biggums:
:wtf:

[aj1987]

Context. First of all, as far as top-3 centers go, Bill Russell had a career average of 47.4%. As a rookie, he even failed to break 40%.
Second, without 3's, TS%'s are generally lower.
Third, Wilt was a bad FT shooter, but even when we include FT's, his TS% was year in and year out among the best in the league. Only in his rookie season did he fail to crack the top-10. 1961 Wilt that you quoted was still good enough for 6th in the league.
Still, efficiency is a big part of basketball and as a volume scorer, he should've had a much better efficiency. Shaq is a horrendous FT shooter as well, but he has a career TS of ~59. Dwight Howard has a TS of 60%. I'm not hating on Wilt, but damn! That's horrible efficiency, especially when you're using up a lot of possessions of your team.

[riseagainst]

Still, efficiency is a big part of basketball and as a volume scorer, he should've had a much better efficiency. Shaq is a horrendous FT shooter as well, but he has a career TS of ~59. Dwight Howard has a TS of 60%. I'm not hating on Wilt, but damn! That's horrible efficiency, especially when you're using up a lot of possessions of your team.

their FT% are similar but FG% are really far apart.

[Psileas]

Still, efficiency is a big part of basketball and as a volume scorer, he should've had a much better efficiency. Shaq is a horrendous FT shooter as well, but he has a career TS of ~59. Dwight Howard has a TS of 60%. I'm not hating on Wilt, but damn! That's horrible efficiency, especially when you're using up a lot of possessions of your team.

My point is that, the way offenses were structured, Wilt's efficiency was high. Shaq was also an efficient scorer, but given the way offenses were run in his own era (and the way he was allowed to play in offense), his 59% isn't that highly awesome and that's why he's ranked 35th all-time, typically behind players who played either in close to his era. So, Shaq was ranked top-10 5 times in his career, including once at its twilight, which is great, but not amazing.
Howard isn't the volume scorer Wilt or Shaq was. If you want to add Howard in the equation, at least compare him to older Wilt, who cut down his scoring, but his efficiency skyrocketed to "modern" levels (59%+ in the second part of his career).

[Psileas]

140.

:biggums:
:wtf:

Not even close to the true figures. He's been called out for posting fake exaggerated numbers (I think fpliii has posted real calculated estimates) and whenever this happens, he ignores the facts, leaves and returns some time later with the same B.S. Typical trollish behavior.

[Suckafree]

Damn, Kareem just misses the cut at 34.8

[Marchesk]

50.4 - Wilt Chamberlain (1961-1962) -> 35.0 ppg in playoffs
44.8 - Wilt Chamberlain (1962-1963) -> not made playoffs
38.4 - Wilt Chamberlain (1960-1961) -> 37.0 ppg in playoffs
37.6 - Wilt Chamberlain (1959-1960) -> 33.2 ppg in playoffs
37.1 - Michael Jordan (1986-1987) -> 35.7 ppg in playoffs
36.9 - Wilt Chamberlain (1963-1964) -> 34.7 ppg in playoffs
35.6 - Rick Barry (1966-1967) -> 34.7 ppg in playoffs
35.4 - Kobe Bryant (2005-2006) -> 27.9 ppg in playoffs
35.0 - Michael Jordan (1987-1988) -> 36.3 ppg in playoffs

38.3 - Elgin Baylor (1961-1962) -> 38.6 ppg in playoffs (13 games)

[Iceman#44]

38.3 - Elgin Baylor (1961-1962) -> 38.6 ppg in playoffs (13 games)
Elgin doesnt make the cut in 61-62 season, just 48 games...still, great stats.

[jlip]

#1. 37.1 PPG - Michael Jordan (1986-1987) @ 40 mpg, Pace/Poss = 95.8

#2. 35.4 PPG - Kobe Bryant (2005-2006) @ 41 mpg, Pace/Poss = 90.9

#3. 35.0 PPG - Michael Jordan (1987-1988) @ 40 mpg, Pace/Poss = 95.5

#4. 50.4 PPG - Wilt Chamberlain (1961-1962) @ 49 mpg, Pace/Poss = ~140

#5. 44.8 PPG - Wilt Chamberlain (1962-1963) @ 48 mpg, Pace/Poss = ~140

#6. 38.4 PPG - Wilt Chamberlain (1960-1961) @ 48 mpg, Pace/Poss = ~140

#7. 37.6 PPG - Wilt Chamberlain (1959-1960) @ 46 mpg, Pace/poss = ~140

#8. 35.6 PPG - Rick Barry (1966-1967) @ 41 mpg, Pace/Poss = ~130

#9. 36.9 PPG - Wilt Chamberlain (1963-1964) @ 46 mpg, Pace/poss = ~140



Fixed. :cheers: Those were just those 9 guys/seasons you mentioned, but there are a couple of more guys who scored better than Wilt based on Pace/Possessions Per Game.... the pace/poss. p.g. decreased every decade from the 60s up until today where it is at its absolute lowest in NBA history (unfortunately it does have to do with evolution of basketball in terms of competition/skill/talent/athleticism on both ends of the floor)... It does play a huge factor, the more possessions you have the more opportunities you have to shoot, rebound, assist, steal, block..... Some teams in the 60s had up to a whopping 50% higher pace compared to today....




140.

:biggums:
:wtf:


Not even close to the true figures. He's been called out for posting fake exaggerated numbers (I think fpliii has posted real calculated estimates) and whenever this happens, he ignores the facts, leaves and returns some time later with the same B.S. Typical trollish behavior.



http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=344&t=955514I calculated them all, the excel spreadsheet with calculations are in the last post for you to download.

Pauk doesn't have possession data, and every time I call him out on his bullshit 150 possessions a game figure, he ignores me and proceeds to repost it two weeks later.

Pauk's post was almost on right on cue.

[L.Kizzle]

Add ELGIN BAYLOR. Homie got drafted and was serving the country and only played on weekends.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I'm more concerned with playoff PPG to be honest. Much more impressive. Context.

[CavaliersFTW]

#1. 37.1 PPG - Michael Jordan (1986-1987) @ 40 mpg, Pace/Poss = 95.8

#2. 35.4 PPG - Kobe Bryant (2005-2006) @ 41 mpg, Pace/Poss = 90.9

#3. 35.0 PPG - Michael Jordan (1987-1988) @ 40 mpg, Pace/Poss = 95.5

#4. 50.4 PPG - Wilt Chamberlain (1961-1962) @ 49 mpg, Pace/Poss = ~140

#5. 44.8 PPG - Wilt Chamberlain (1962-1963) @ 48 mpg, Pace/Poss = ~140

#6. 38.4 PPG - Wilt Chamberlain (1960-1961) @ 48 mpg, Pace/Poss = ~140

#7. 37.6 PPG - Wilt Chamberlain (1959-1960) @ 46 mpg, Pace/poss = ~140

#8. 35.6 PPG - Rick Barry (1966-1967) @ 41 mpg, Pace/Poss = ~130

#9. 36.9 PPG - Wilt Chamberlain (1963-1964) @ 46 mpg, Pace/poss = ~140



Fixed. :cheers: Those were just those 9 guys/seasons you mentioned, but there are a couple of more guys who scored better than Wilt based on Pace/Possessions Per Game.... the pace/poss. p.g. decreased every decade from the 60s up until today where it is at its absolute lowest in NBA history (unfortunately it does have to do with evolution of basketball in terms of competition/skill/talent/athleticism on both ends of the floor)... It does play a huge factor, the more possessions you have the more opportunities you have to shoot, rebound, assist, steal, block..... Some teams in the 60s had up to a whopping 50% higher pace compared to today....
:facepalm You use totally flawed 'pace' numbers from back then and everyone on ISH knows it. Your a fraud when it comes to numbers and expertise of the 1960's, you consistently use B.S. 'pace' numbers that aren't real despite being corrected over and over again. Why? Who knows maybe because you feel some of those guys challenge Lebron. But whatever the reasons, please everyone disregard this guys posts related to 'pace' and 60's basketball. He inflates the pace of that era WAY beyond reality.

[LAZERUSS]

Still, efficiency is a big part of basketball and as a volume scorer, he should've had a much better efficiency. Shaq is a horrendous FT shooter as well, but he has a career TS of ~59. Dwight Howard has a TS of 60%. I'm not hating on Wilt, but damn! That's horrible efficiency, especially when you're using up a lot of possessions of your team.

CONTEXT!

In Shaq's greatest scoring season, in which he averaged 29.7 ppg, he had a TS% of .578, in a league that had a .514 TS%...or + 6.4 .

In Chamberlain's 65-66 season, in which he averaged 33.5 ppg,he had a TS% of .547...in a league that had a TS% of .478... or + 6.9 .

Or Wilt's 62-63 season, in which he averaged 44.8 ppg. A .550 TS% in a league with a .484 TS%... or + 6.6 (and again...in a staggering scoring season.)

Even Wilt's greatest scoring season was WAY ahead of the league average. He aveaged 50.4 ppg, on a .536 TS%, in a league that shot a TS% of .470... or + 6.6 .

Of course, how about Wilt's 66-67 season? He averaged 24.1 ppg, with a TS% of .637...in a league that had a .484 TS%.. or + 15.3 !


How about Hakeem in his highest scoring season, at 27.8 ppg? A TS% of .563 in a league that had a .533 TS%... or +3.0 .

Robinson's greatest scoring season? 29.8 ppg on a .577 TS% in a league that had a .519 TS%...or + 5.8 .

In Kobe's greatest scoring season, 35.4 ppg..a TS% of .559 in a league that shot .526... or + 3.3 .

How about MJ's greatest scoring season? 37.1 ppg on a TS% of .562, in a league that shot a TS% of .528 ... or + 3.4 .

Only Kareem was really a more effcient scorer than Wilt in his highest scoring season... at 34.8 ppg. He had a TS% of .603, in a league that shot a TS% of .496 ... +10.7. However, he completely folded his tent in that post-season, with a TS% of .462. So, while the pundits love to rip Wilt's "decline" in the post-season...he certainly wasn't the worst in that category.

[aj1987]

Why would I take the league's average TS, which would include the TS% of guards and forwards as well?

[LAZERUSS]

Why would I take the league's average TS, which would include the TS% of guards and forwards as well?

Why wouldn't you? For one thing, guards usually are better FT% shooters, and if they can shoot higher than .340 from the arc, they are usually benefitting from that efficiency, as well.

BUT, you HAVE to account for LEAGUE AVERAGE in ANY of these discussions. How come a prime 27 year old Gilmore could only average 18.6 ppg on .522 shooting, and yet a 35 year old Gilmore could average 19.1 ppg on .623 shooting (and with seasons as high as 17.9 ppg on .670 shooting)?

How could a PRIME Kareem have seasons of .539, .529, .518, and even .513 in the 70's...and yet, at 37, have a season of .599?

And the reverse is also true. Hakeem had his HIGHEST FG% season in his ROOKIE season. Then, take a look at Robinson and Ewing's careers. Very early on, by their 3rd seasons, they hit their high mark in FG%...and then a steady decline into their PRIME seasons.


It is all relative.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

No coincidence these guys are often in GOAT scoring discussions.

[LAZERUSS]

BTW,

Chamberlain was playing 48 mpg in his highest scoring seasons, and in much more condensed schedules (e.g.... in his 61-62 season, he had a several streaks of three games in a row, several more separate streaks of four games in a row, and even one more separate streak of five games in a row...and two were on the road.) Yet, while everyone jumps on the "pace" bandwagon...they ignore just how brutal the schedule was...which would have dramatically affected efficiency. Of course, all anyone needs to do is look at players like Darrall Imhoff, Johnny Green, Jerry West, and many others, whose careers spanned the early 60's thru the early 70's. They were all shooting LIGHT YEARS better later in their careers.

[LAZERUSS]

And how about Adrian Dantley...he of four seasons of 30+ ppg, and shooting a TS% of .622, .631, .652, and .661 in them.

All from a 6-5 player who had no more than 15-18 ft range, and was among the greatest "post-up" players of all-time.

[aj1987]

Why wouldn't you? For one thing, guards usually are better FT% shooters, and if they can shoot higher than .340 from the arc, they are usually benefitting from that efficiency, as well.

BUT, you HAVE to account for LEAGUE AVERAGE in ANY of these discussions. How come a prime 27 year old Gilmore could only average 18.6 ppg on .522 shooting, and yet a 35 year old Gilmore could average 19.1 ppg on .623 shooting (and with seasons as high as 17.9 ppg on .670 shooting)?


How could a PRIME Kareem have seasons of .539, .529, .518, and even .513 in the 70's...and yet, at 37, have a season of .599?

And the reverse is also true. Hakeem had his HIGHEST FG% season in his ROOKIE season. Then, take a look at Robinson and Ewing's careers. Very early on, by their 3rd seasons, they hit their high mark in FG%...and then a steady decline into their PRIME seasons.


It is all relative.

You can't compare TS% from the 60's to today's TS%. 3 pointers.

[LAZERUSS]

You can't compare TS% from the 60's to today's TS%. 3 pointers.

First of all, we simply don't know how the players of the 60's (and 70's) would have shot with a 3pt line. We do know that the lanes were much more congested, which limited shooting in two ways. One, it was more difficult to drive, and two, it was easier to double or triple players because there was less distance to cover. Today's game is much more spread out.

Secondly, there were several factors which contributed to the lower FG%'s of the early 60's (and keep in mind that the league FT% was actually higher in the 58-59 season, than it was just this last year.) The ball was not uniform. The venues were often cold, and even breezy. The travel conditions and accomodations were much worse, and the schedule was much more brutal. And players were expected to play with injuries, and that coupled with much less medical technology often meant that an injured player was never close to being the same as before. Elgin Baylor was a great example, as was...yes, Wilt.

I have posted the facts many times. Player-for-player, of those whose career spanned the ealry 60's thru the late 60's, or beyond, shot considerably better later in their careers. And that trend continued until the late 70's, when it just exploded. Just take a look at the league FG% in 77-78 and then 78-79. It jumped by a huge margin...and did not look back. An eFG%'s have continued to climb, as well....even with the 3pt line.

Think about this...last year the NBA shot a combined .359 from the arc. That translates to a .538 FG%! But, once again, the league had a lower FT% last year, than back in the 58-59 season. I'm sorry, but I have to believe that had the players of the 60's had the same benefits of the modern NBA, that their 3PT shooting would have been on par, as well.

[Gwin631]

Wrong

1987-88 MJ: 60.3 TS%
1986-87 MJ: 56.2 TS%
2005-06 Kobe: 55.9 TS%
1962-63 Wilt: 55.0 TS%
1963-64 Wilt: 53.7 TS%
1961-62 Wilt: 53.6 TS%
1966-67 Barry: 53.1 TS%
1960-61 Wilt: 51.9 TS%
1959-60 Wilt: 49.3 TS%

You cant really use TS, because there was no kind of 3pt line for the people below Kobe.

[triangleoffense]

only 7 players have scored 34.5 points though. BTW basketball is dead thanks to stats obsessed generation. Only decent sport is football where not everything on the field can be summed into a single number.

GJ enjoy your dummed down entertainment WWE version of basketball.

[aj1987]

First of all, we simply don't know how the players of the 60's (and 70's) would have shot with a 3pt line. We do know that the lanes were much more congested, which limited shooting in two ways. One, it was more difficult to drive, and two, it was easier to double or triple players because there was less distance to cover. Today's game is much more spread out.

Secondly, there were several factors which contributed to the lower FG%'s of the early 60's (and keep in mind that the league FT% was actually higher in the 58-59 season, than it was just this last year.) The ball was not uniform. The venues were often cold, and even breezy. The travel conditions and accomodations were much worse, and the schedule was much more brutal. And players were expected to play with injuries, and that coupled with much less medical technology often meant that an injured player was never close to being the same as before. Elgin Baylor was a great example, as was...yes, Wilt.

I have posted the facts many times. Player-for-player, of those whose career spanned the ealry 60's thru the late 60's, or beyond, shot considerably better later in their careers. And that trend continued until the late 70's, when it just exploded. Just take a look at the league FG% in 77-78 and then 78-79. It jumped by a huge margin...and did not look back. An eFG%'s have continued to climb, as well....even with the 3pt line.

Think about this...last year the NBA shot a combined .359 from the arc. That translates to a .538 FG%! But, once again, the league had a lower FT% last year, than back in the 58-59 season. I'm sorry, but I have to believe that had the players of the 60's had the same benefits of the modern NBA, that their 3PT shooting would have been on par, as well.
The simple fact is, Wilt scored 1.17 and 1.23 points per FGA (during his first 2 seasons), which is pretty average/below average effeciency. Shaq is a much more efficient scorer.

[Psileas]

The simple fact is, Wilt scored 1.17 and 1.23 points per FGA (during his first 2 seasons), which is pretty average/below average effeciency. Shaq is a much more efficient scorer.

And it's an equally simple fact that Wilt averaged 27.0 and 27.2 rebounds per game, numbers that Shaq couldn't even dream of.

Context says hi.

[Marchesk]

only 7 players have scored 34.5 points though. BTW basketball is dead thanks to stats obsessed generation. Only decent sport is football where not everything on the field can be summed into a single number.

GJ enjoy your dummed down entertainment WWE version of basketball.

Come on, baseball has been the most stat obsessed sport for a long time, and that never hurt the game. That's why there was a steroid outcry in baseball and not basketball or football. Because of the hallowed numbers.

[aj1987]

And it's an equally simple fact that Wilt averaged 27.0 and 27.2 rebounds per game, numbers that Shaq couldn't even dream of.

Context says hi.
I agree with you. Averaging 27/27 over a season? Nope. I never said he could.

When I rank the GOAT's, I usually Shaq and Wilt right next to each other. I do rank Shaq a spot above Wilt though. He did play against better competition, IMO. I believe that Wilt would still be right next to Shaq on these rankings, even if he played in Shaq's era.

[CavaliersFTW]

I agree with you. Averaging 27/27 over a season? Nope. I never said he could.

When I rank the GOAT's, I usually Shaq and Wilt right next to each other. I do rank Shaq a spot above Wilt though. He did play against better competition, IMO. I believe that Wilt would still be right next to Shaq on these rankings, even if he played in Shaq's era.
In a much smaller league (playing these guys 2-3 times more often than Shaq ever played against any of the 'good' centers of his era): Kareem, Russell, Thurmond, Reed, Cowens, Unseld, Bellamy, Lanier, Lucas... I mean, tell me when to stop. For every Gene Wiley or Leroy Ellis Wilt cut his teeth on, Shaq cut his teeth on 5 more straight up scrubs at the center position. The notion that his competition was 'better' than Wilt's is nothing but an uninformed and unresearched assumption stated in passing by pseudo fans who don't know anything about the games history. Don't know why any real fan would try to repeat it. ... Oh wait, trolling. I forgot, carry on with your trolling.

[aj1987]

In a much smaller league (playing these guys 2-3 times more often than Shaq ever played against any of the 'good' centers of his era): Kareem, Russell, Thurmond, Reed, Cowens, Unseld, Bellamy, Lanier, Lucas... I mean, tell me when to stop. For every Gene Wiley or Leroy Ellis Wilt cut his teeth on, Shaq cut his teeth on 5 more straight up scrubs at the center position. The notion that his competition was 'better' than Wilt's is nothing but an uninformed and unresearched assumption stated in passing by pseudo fans who don't know anything about the games history. Don't know why any real fan would try to repeat it. ... Oh wait, trolling. I forgot, carry on with your trolling.
Are you going to act like Shaq never player against Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem, Duncan, Mutombo, Alonzo, Ben Wallace, Yao Ming, Sabonis, etc.?

Shaq > Wilt. Deal with it.

[CavaliersFTW]

Are you going to act like Shaq never player against Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem, Duncan, Mutombo, Alonzo, Ben Wallace, Yao Ming, Sabonis, etc.?

Shaq > Wilt. Deal with it.
Count up how many games Shaq played against those guys, and see if it even equals how many times Wilt played JUST Bill Russell :oldlol:

[KyrieTheFuture]

Rick Barry is criminally underrated

[Legends66NBA7]

Rick Barry is criminally underrated

I wish he didn't play a good chunk of their prime in the ABA. He would be ranked a lot differently if he stayed in the NBA, but I also think it's because Barry is very much hated as a player on and off court that hurts his chances too.


Count up how many games Shaq played against those guys, and see if it even equals how many times Wilt played JUST Bill Russell :oldlol:

Shaq would have fared very well against any all-time great center, long number of games or not.

[CavaliersFTW]

I wish he didn't play a good chunk of their prime in the ABA. He would be ranked a lot differently if he stayed in the NBA, but I also think it's because Barry is very much hated as a player on and off court that hurts his chances too.



Shaq would have fared very well against any all-time great center, long number of games or not.
aj asserted that he faced 'better competition' - thus that is precisely what I targeted - I don't care that he was good enough to play well against anyone, I agree, such is the case for basically any all-time great. That wasn't my point. When you browse through each players competition, and how often they played them Shaq DIDN'T face better competition more than Wilt. Again, this was a direct response to aj. Not saying Shaq can't play well against great players, but historically, he didn't face-off against great centers more than Wilt.

[Legends66NBA7]

aj asserted that he faced 'better competition' - thus that is precisely what I targeted - I don't care that he was good enough to play well against anyone, I agree, such is the case for basically any all-time great. He DIDN'T however, face 'better competition' than Wilt. Again, this was a direct response to aj. Not saying Shaq can't play well against great players, but historically, he didn't face-off against great centers more than Wilt.

Even so, I'd say it's pretty damn close and there's not much difference.

What's the total list look like from Wilt's competition vs Shaq's competition ?

I'd say you could also count Tim Duncan for Shaq too, since he did guard him at times and Shaq has usually thought very highly about Duncan throughout his Laker years. On the other hand, I wouldn't count someone like Moses Malone for Shaq, since he was well past his prime and hardly playing vs Shaq in his first 3 seasons.

[jlip]

What's the total list look like from Wilt's competition vs Shaq's competition ?



Tharegul8r did this very breakdown on another site. I'm going to see if I can find it.

Edit: Found it
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=15328771

[juju151111]

And it's an equally simple fact that Wilt averaged 27.0 and 27.2 rebounds per game, numbers that Shaq couldn't even dream of.

Context says hi.
Stop acting like he would avg those numbers today.

[Legends66NBA7]

Tharegul8r did this very breakdown on another site. I'm going to see if I can find it.

Edit: Found it
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=15328771

Thanks, although linking from rival sites might get you banned here.

:D

[WillC]

Elgin doesnt make the cut in 61-62 season, just 48 games...still, great stats.

He was serving in the military, protecting his fellow Americans.

Yeah, let's hold that against him.

:facepalm

[LAZERUSS]

I do have a problem with Baylor's 61-62 season. It was basically HALF the season. And while he should be applauded for serving his country, the fact remains that he did not face a rigorous regular season schedule. Keep in mind that the 61-62 NBA played a considerably more brutal schedule than those of recent eras. I have noted it before, but Wilt not only played in a ton of back-to-back games, he played in six separate stretches of three-games-in-a-row. another three separate stretches of four-games-in-a-row, and even one more separate stretch of five-games-in-five-nights (and two of them were on the road.)

How about Ted Williams in 1953? He was serving in the military (something he did for five years in the middle of his career), and yet does anyone acknowledge that that season as the last time a player batting .400 (.407)? True, he only played in 37 of the 154 games, but it wasn't his fault. (BTW, he was on pace for some truly staggering offensive numbers that year.)

For years Marino held the passing yardage record of 5084, which was technically true. BUT, had Dan Fout's '82 season not been cut short by a strike (again, he had no control over that), and limited to nine games, he likely would have held the record (he was on pace for 5125 yards that season.) Maybe either Marino, or Fouts, shoud have had an asterick next to their season.

And for years Dave Bing was widely recognized as the scoring champion in the 67-68 season, in which he led the NBA in points. Oscar had a higher ppg average (29.2 ppg), but he wasn't even in the top-5 in scoring because he only played in 65 games. And in Oscar's case, he played in 80% of the schedule, unlike Baylor in '62, who only played in 60% of his.

As for Wilt, he played in three separate stretches of the 61-62 season, in which he averaged 53 ppg in 14 straight games, 54 in another run of 14 straight games, and the late in the season, he had a five game stretch of 70 ppg (yes, 351 points over the course of five straight games.) That is 33 games. And, if you include the first 16 straight games in his 62-63 season, when he awas averaging 53.8 ppg...Chamberlain had four separate streaks, with a total of 49 games, in which he averaged about 55 ppg.

To put that into some kind of perspective, Baylor had 15 games of 40+ in his 61-62 season, with five of those at 50+, and a high game of 63 points...in 48 games.

To Baylor's credit, he did average 38.2 ppg in his first 42 games, which were all played consecutively. He PROBABLY could have sustained that pace for the full season, but we will never know. We do know that he didn't play the entire season. And, that he only faced Boston in four of their eight matchups in the regular season, and averaged 31 ppg against them (Wilt averaged 39.7 against Russell in ten of his h2h's.)

But would Baylor have sustained nagging, or even serious injuries, had he played the full season? Would he have endured a major slump? We do know that he only played one season in which he played every game, and in that season (62-63) he averaged 34.0 ppg. And, furthermore, his career high in anything close to a FULL season, was 34.8 ppg. And as a sidenote, after Baylor's 62-63 season, he never challenged 30 ppg in a season again (not even close actually.)

I maintain that Barry's 35.6 ppg season in the 66-67 campaign, was the highest "non-Wilt" scoring season in the entire Chamberlain era. It was certainly a FULL season.

[L.Kizzle]

I do have a problem with Baylor's 61-62 season. It was basically HALF the season. And while he should be applauded for serving his country, the fact remains that he did not face a rigorous regular season schedule. Keep in mind that the 61-62 NBA played a considerably more brutal schedule than those of recent eras. I have noted it before, but Wilt not only played in a ton of back-to-back games, he played in six separate stretches of three-games-in-a-row. another three separate stretches of four-games-in-a-row, and even one more separate stretch of five-games-in-five-nights (and two of them were on the road.)

How about Ted Williams in 1953? He was serving in the military (something he did for five years in the middle of his career), and yet does anyone acknowledge that that season as the last time a player batting .400 (.407)? True, he only played in 37 of the 154 games, but it wasn't his fault. (BTW, he was on pace for some truly staggering offensive numbers that year.)

For years Marino held the passing yardage record of 5084, which was technically true. BUT, had Dan Fout's '82 season not been cut short by a strike (again, he had no control over that), and limited to nine games, he likely would have held the record (he was on pace for 5125 yards that season.) Maybe either Marino, or Fouts, shoud have had an asterick next to their season.

And for years Dave Bing was widely recognized as the scoring champion in the 67-68 season, in which he led the NBA in points. Oscar had a higher ppg average (29.2 ppg), but he wasn't even in the top-5 in scoring because he only played in 65 games. And in Oscar's case, he played in 80% of the schedule, unlike Baylor in '62, who only played in 60% of his.

As for Wilt, he played in three separate stretches of the 61-62 season, in which he averaged 53 ppg in 14 straight games, 54 in another run of 14 straight games, and the late in the season, he had a five game stretch of 70 ppg (yes, 351 points over the course of five straight games.) That is 33 games. And, if you include the first 16 straight games in his 62-63 season, when he awas averaging 53.8 ppg...Chamberlain had four separate streaks, with a total of 49 games, in which he averaged about 55 ppg.

To put that into some kind of perspective, Baylor had 15 games of 40+ in his 61-62 season, with five of those at 50+, and a high game of 63 points...in 48 games.

To Baylor's credit, he did average 38.2 ppg in his first 42 games, which were all played consecutively. He PROBABLY could have sustained that pace for the full season, but we will never know. We do know that he didn't play the entire season. And, that he only faced Boston in four of their eight matchups in the regular season, and averaged 31 ppg against them (Wilt averaged 39.7 against Russell in ten of his h2h's.)

But would Baylor have sustained nagging, or even serious injuries, had he played the full season? Would he have endured a major slump? We do know that he only played one season in which he played every game, and in that season (62-63) he averaged 34.0 ppg. And, furthermore, his career high in anything close to a FULL season, was 34.8 ppg. And as a sidenote, after Baylor's 62-63 season, he never challenged 30 ppg in a season again (not even close actually.)

I maintain that Barry's 35.6 ppg season in the 66-67 campaign, was the highest "non-Wilt" scoring season in the entire Chamberlain era. It was certainly a FULL season.
Baylor probably missed out on a avg of 5 games per season his first 11 seasons in the league. He was pretty consistent with his FG% and everything else. What makes you think had he not been in the military things would have been different? He avg 34.8 and 34 the season before and after playing 73 out of 75 games and 80 (the complete season at that time.)

[LAZERUSS]

Baylor probably missed out on a avg of 5 games per season his first 11 seasons in the league. He was pretty consistent with his FG% and everything else. What makes you think had he not been in the military things would have been different? He avg 34.8 and 34 the season before and after playing 73 out of 75 games and 80 (the complete season at that time.)

The answer is simple...we really don't know. To give him credit for playing in 60% of the games is really a stretch. You can speculate all you want, but we will never know for sure. The only thing we do know is that he only played a partial season.

And once again, I can give you four separate streaks, all within what would be a full season, but covering the '62 seasons, and the first 16 games of the '63 season, in which Wilt averaged 55 ppg in 49 games. So if Baylor were to get credit for scoring 38.3 ppg in 48 games, Wilt should get credit for averaging 55 ppg in a span of 49 games, in which both played in the equivalent of an 80 game season.

There are just too many variables over the course of 80 games, not the least of which was the brutal schedule.

And I have given you examples of other statistical accomplishments, including pro basketball, in which "part-time" numbers were not counted.

[Pointguard]

:biggums:

Can you do points per possession? A sub 50% TS for a top 3 GOAT center? Damn!
Not that big of surprise.

Bill Russell rarely had a TS above 50% in the playoffs and he was super clutch. Duncan and Shaq have done it and shooting percentage is much higher these days. Great centers in general suffer in that category.

[LAZERUSS]

Not that big of surprise.

Bill Russell rarely had a TS above 50% in the playoffs and he was super clutch. Duncan and Shaq have done it and shooting percentage is much higher these days. Great centers in general suffer in that category.

Excellent post.

And in Wilt's case, and as I have already shown, his TS%'s were generally WAY above the post-season NBA league average. Not only that, but how about the TS%'s of his opposing centers...many of whom he held WAY below the league average? How about this example? In the 64-65 EDF's, in a seven game series, Chamberlain had a TS% of .560, in a post-season NBA that shot .478, while holding Russell to a .450 TS%. All while averaging 30 ppg and 31 rpg (and shooting .555 from the field.)

Or the fact that, while he was a poor FT shooter, his IMPACT at the line has largely been ignored. Here again, his TEAMs were almost always among the regular season, and POST-SEASON leaders in FTAs, and in FTM's. Furthermore, he was outscoring his opposing centers from the line in every one of his six Finals.

[CavaliersFTW]

Rick Barry was most impressive out of the bunch because he lacked the athletic ability compared to those guys. But what he lacked in athleticism he made up for in smarts and hustle. In that same year he avg over 9 reb a game at the height of 6-7'.
:facepalm Rick Barry was a GREAT athlete, he was not lacking in speed, hops, quickness, or anything like that. To act like he was lacking in athleticism is just another one of your ulterior motive white vs black troll posts. In other words your trying to say 'most impressive cause he's white' and your applying a white stereotype to him. He wasn't ACTUALLY unathletic though. He was much much more athletic than say, Larry Bird or Steve Nash or Jerry West or any other past great white player. Barry's progeny dunked from the FT line for crying out loud. Rick Barry actually had decent hangtime and incredible body control while in mid-air - he was a great athlete.