Lebron is a better scorer than Kobe according to all stats

[Derivative]

Lebron James career:

27.56 ppg
49.0% FG
33.7% 3PT
57.5% TS

Kobe Bryant career:

25.52 ppg
45.4% FG
33.6% 3PT
55.5% TS


Lebron is a better, more efficiently scorer than Kobe according to all stats. LOL at Kobe being called one of the best scorers of all time, dude is not even top 10 in career PPG.

[FiveRings]

Lebron James career:

27.56 ppg
49.0% FG
33.7% 3PT
57.5% TS

Kobe Bryant career:

25.52 ppg
45.4% FG
33.6% 3PT
55.5% TS


Lebron is a better, more efficiently scorer than Kobe according to all stats. LOL at Kobe being called one of the best scorers of all time, dude is not even top 10 in career PPG.
Context? Bryant came off the bench and deferred to O'Neal for years. When did James 35 ppg season happen again? Troll.

[Nash]

Context? Bryant came off the bench and deferred to O'Neal for years. When did James 35 ppg season happen again? Troll.
Kobe had the luxury of having Shaq being double teamed during all those years. Lebron never had.

And can't blame Lebron for Kobe not being ready for the NBA(which Leborn was) when he came into the league.

[TheReturn]

Context? Bryant came off the bench and deferred to O'Neal for years. When did James 35 ppg season happen again? Troll.
How is that relevant when he still got more shots than Lebron on average?

[FiveRings]

Kobe had the luxury of having Shaq being double teamed during all those years. Lebron never had.

And can't blame Lebron for Kobe not being ready for the NBA(which Leborn was) when he came into the league.
Fair enough, Kobe wasn't as ready as Lebron. Lebron was a better scorer than Kobe in their first couple years, and from that point on Kobe was a better scorer. Kobe's best season is 4 more ppg than Lebron's best and if Lebron had to defer to Shaq (which he certainly would if they played together) Lebron's career ppg would not be as high as it is now.

[fiddy]

Lebron James career:

27.56 ppg
49.0% FG
33.7% 3PT
57.5% TS

Kobe Bryant career:

25.52 ppg
45.4% FG
33.6% 3PT
55.5% TS


Lebron is a better, more efficiently scorer than Kobe according to all stats. LOL at Kobe being called one of the best scorers of all time, dude is not even top 10 in career PPG.

Try harder.

[FiveRings]

How is that relevant when he still got more shots than Lebron on average?
It's relevant because OP posted the two players career ppg like he was proving some point. If Bryant never plays with Shaq, his career ppg ends up being several points higher than it is now.

[tmacattack33]

It's debatable certainly.

But if you take away Lebron's elite passing ability, which keeps the defenders honest, i don't know if he'd score so easily.

Of course, Lebron's elite passing ability is a part of him and we can only take it away from him in a fantasy world, so it really doesn't matter. So, yes, Lebron in the real world has top 2 scoring ability right now and it was top 3 from 2006-2011 (along with Kobe and Wade).

[Nash]

If you can't grasp the concept of efficiency then this discussion won't get us anywhere.

[TheReturn]

It's relevant because OP posted the two players career ppg like he was making some point. If Bryant never plays with Shaq, his career ppg ends up being several points higher than it is now.
So you're only interested in 27 ppg vs 25 ppg? The rest is meaningless to you?

[Kblaze8855]

You guys really want to do this again? Word for word?

"But Shaq held him back!"

"But Shaq drew doubles!"


"Skills!"

"Shooting percentage!"


Im not gonna stop you if you do. Im just wondering. This how you want to spend your day?

[Sarcastic]

Kobe had the luxury of having Shaq being double teamed during all those years. Lebron never had.

And can't blame Lebron for Kobe not being ready for the NBA(which Leborn was) when he came into the league.


Luxury? :roll: :roll:

Do you think Kobe's man was leaving him open?



According to all stats, Adrian Dantley is the GOAT scorer, or at worst top 5. How many people actually put him there though?

[tpols]

You guys really want to do this again? Word for word?

"But Shaq held him back!"

"But Shaq drew doubles!"


"Skills!"

"Shooting percentage!"


Im not gonna stop you if you do. Im just wondering. This how you want to spend your day?
:oldlol: so true

[HurricaneKid]

If you can't grasp the concept of efficiency then this discussion won't get us anywhere.

Indeed. Lets put it like this:

Last year Kobe took 241 more shots than LeBron. How many more did he make?

Over the past 6 seasons Kobe has taken exactly 750 more shots than LeBron. How many more shots has he made?

Highlight below for answers:

1) Trick Question. LeBron made 27 more shots in 241 fewer attempts
2) Trick Question. LeBron made 142 more shots in 750 fewer attempts

[riseagainst]

It's debatable certainly.

But if you take away Lebron's elite passing ability, which keeps the defenders honest, i don't know if he'd score so easily.

Of course, Lebron's elite passing ability is a part of him and we can only take it away from him in a fantasy world, so it really doesn't matter. So, yes, Lebron in the real world has top 2 scoring ability right now and it was top 3 from 2006-2011 (along with Kobe and Wade).

well said.

[jstern]

Indeed. Lets put it like this:

Last year Kobe took 241 more shots than LeBron. How many more did he make?

Over the past 6 seasons Kobe has taken exactly 750 more shots than LeBron. How many more shots has he made?

Highlight below for answers:
1) Trick Question. LeBron made 27 more shots in 241 fewer attempts
2) Trick Question. LeBron made 142 more shots in 750 fewer attempts


Lebron is just on a different level.

[Trollsmasher]

Since coming into the league, LeBron scored more points than Kobe on more than 500 shots less...

[Mass Debator]

If both of them are only allowed to score and nothing else, Kobe wins no doubt.
If both are allowed to play regular 5-on-5 basketball, both are great scorers that on a tier above the rest. Pick Lebron for efficiency and consistent scoring and pick Kobe for when you absolutely need scoring at the very moment.

[TheMarkMadsen]

How is that relevant when he still got more shots than Lebron on average?


Lebron has more FGA per game for his career on average..

So it's very relevant

[zoom17]

How is that relevant when he still got more shots than Lebron on average?

lol lakers fans are dumb you show them stats and the say get this shit out my face:roll: :roll: :roll:

[zoom17]

Lebron is just on a different level.

:applause:

[aj1987]

According to all stats, Adrian Dantley is the GOAT scorer, or at worst top 5. How many people actually put him there though?
WTF? How the hell are his stats even close to being that of a top 5 GOAT scorer? He's 18th in PPG over his career and 25th in total points scored.




Lebron has more FGA per game for his career on average..

So it's very relevant
You're right. Lebron took 0.5 FGA more than Kobe over their careers, but he scored 2 PPG more than Kobe.

[I<3NBA]

You guys really want to do this again? Word for word?

"But Shaq held him back!"

"But Shaq drew doubles!"


"Skills!"

"Shooting percentage!"


Im not gonna stop you if you do. Im just wondering. This how you want to spend your day?
yeah. i'm tired of this discussion too. Lebron is already way better than Kobe ever was or ever will be.

[TheMarkMadsen]

WTF? How the hell are his stats even close to being that of a top 5 GOAT scorer? He's 18th in PPG over his career and 25th in total points scored.




You're right. Lebron took 0.5 FGA more than Kobe over their careers, but he scored 2 PPG more than Kobe.

I was correcting somebody who said Lebron has less FGA on average which he thought made Kobes bench years "irrelevant"

Through his first 5 years Lebron averaged 21 FGA per game

Through his first 5 years Kobe averaged 15 FGA per game

[aj1987]

I was correcting somebody who said Lebron has less FGA on average which he thought made Kobes bench years "irrelevant"


Through his first 5 years Lebron averaged 21 FGA per game

Through his first 5 years Kobe averaged 15 FGA per game
It is irrelevant. He was not as good as Lebron, coming into the league.

As a starter, Kobe averages 27.4 PPG on 45.5% (21.1 FGA). Lebron (removing his rookie year, as I removed Kobe's rookie year and sophomore year as well) averages 28.3 PPG on 49.8% (20.3 FGA). Still, Lebron averages 0.9 points MORE than Kobe on 4.4% better shooting and 0.8 fewer FGA.

[DMAVS41]

Even if you remove the non prime years for Kobe...Lebron still wins this pretty easily.

Lebron is more efficient across the board and scores slightly more points.

There is really no argument here.

[zoom17]

Even if you remove the non prime years for Kobe...Lebron still wins this pretty easily.

Lebron is more efficient across the board and scores slightly more points.

There is really no argument here.

:applause:

[Hoopz2332]

Indeed. Lets put it like this:

Last year Kobe took 241 more shots than LeBron. How many more did he make?

Over the past 6 seasons Kobe has taken exactly 750 more shots than LeBron. How many more shots has he made?

Highlight below for answers:

1) Trick Question. LeBron made 27 more shots in 241 fewer attempts
2) Trick Question. LeBron made 142 more shots in 750 fewer attempts


http://i.imgur.com/2IOd8FT.gif

[TheMarkMadsen]

It is irrelevant. He was not as good as Lebron, coming into the league.

As a starter, Kobe averages 27.4 PPG on 45.5% (21.1 FGA). Lebron (removing his rookie year, as I removed Kobe's rookie year and sophomore year as well) averages 28.3 PPG on 49.8% (20.3 FGA). Still, Lebron averages 0.9 points MORE than Kobe on 4.4% better shooting and 0.8 fewer FGA.

I don't know why you insist on taking out Lebrons rookie year.

The only reason anybody says to remove Kobes first 3 year in these comparisons is so that they can compare numbers as starters.

Lebron was a starter from day 1 on a horrible team and was given the green light to shoot. He put up 19 shots to score 21 point per game on 41% while missing the playoffs . It's not far fetched to think Kobe could do the same in that situation..

And the only reasons a perimeter player out of HS was picked #1 and given te green light from the get go over a proven college player (Melo) is because of guys like Kobe, KG & Tmac who proved these HS kids could develope into legit stars when they are finally given the chance.

So when comparing stas as starters it's pretty ridiculous to exclude Lebrons first year as a starter. If you're going to do that you might aswell start counting Kobes stats from 00-01. Since Lebron had the green light to put up 20+ shots per game

You end up with Kobe averaging like 1 more ppg on 1 more shot per game.

It's really close, and anybody claiming it isn't is a biased fool.


Also, how big of a trolling hypocrite is DMAVS? Dude has a fit whenever somebody makes a claim about Kobe being better at anything and especially when they say stuff line "it's not even close" an act like certain discussions are beneath Kobe yet this fool is in this thread claiming how its "not even close". Pathetic

[nathanjizzle]

did you count lebrons years after his prime like kobes stats dictate :bowdown: dumb bron stans. :facepalm

[zoom17]

http://i.imgur.com/2IOd8FT.gif

:oldlol:

[Eric Cartman]

Nobody uses common sense and context anymore.

[aj1987]

I don't know why you insist on taking out Lebrons rookie year.
Actually, this is the first time that I ever removed Lebron's rookie year.


The only reason anybody says to remove Kobes first 3 year in these comparisons is so that they can compare numbers as starters.

Lebron was a starter from day 1 on a horrible team and was given the green light to shoot. He put up 19 shots to score 21 point per game on 41% while missing the playoffs . It's not far fetched to think Kobe could do the same in that situation..

And the only reasons a perimeter player out of HS was picked #1 and given te green light from the get go over a proven college player (Melo) is because of guys like Kobe, KG & Tmac who proved these HS kids could develope into legit stars when they are finally given the chance.
It's not Lebron's fault that he was that good coming straight out of HS. There's a reason why Kobe was picked 13th in the draft as well.


So when comparing stas as starters it's pretty ridiculous to exclude Lebrons first year as a starter. If you're going to do that you might aswell start counting Kobes stats from 00-01. Since Lebron had the green light to put up 20+ shots per game
If you're going to exclude Kobe's first two years, because he wasn't good enough to be a starter, it's only fair that you remove Lebron's rookie year as well.



You end up with Kobe averaging like 1 more ppg on 1 more shot per game.
Where the hell did you get that number from? Even if you remove Kobe's first 4 seasons, he averaged 28.1 PPG on 45.4% and Lebron averages 27.6 on 49%.
Essentially, Kobe averages 0.5 PPG more than Lebron on 3.6% lower FG% and 1.5 FGA more than Lebron.

As a starter, Kobe averages 0.2 PPG LESS than Lebron on 3.5% lower FG% and 1 more FGA. I still don't see how Kobe is a better scorer?

Removing all the arbitrary crap, over their careers, Lebron averages 2.1 PPG MORE than Kobe on 3.5% better FG%.

[7_cody]

LeBron is great at manipulating his stats.

Don't get me wrong, he is a very good player, the best today, but he is aware of his stats and he knows how to keep them where he wants them

Kobe doesn't care. He has the skill to take difficult shots, and he is only 4% behind or something like that in FG%

Seeing the way LeBron was guarded in the Finals against the Spurs is all anyway needs to know that Kobe is a much better scorer than LeBron

Give Kobe ten feet of space, he will drop Finals records PPG.

Kobe is stopped when he has an off-night and starts bricking. LeBron is also stopped when he has an off-night and starts bricking, or... you could just give him ten feet of space.

[Sarcastic]

WTF? How the hell are his stats even close to being that of a top 5 GOAT scorer? He's 18th in PPG over his career and 25th in total points scored.




Dantley is 4th all time in TS%, and he's a better scorer than the 3 guys ahead of him.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ts_pct_career.html


Dat efficiency. It's all that matters, no?

[aj1987]

Dantley is 4th all time in TS%, and he's a better scorer than the 3 guys ahead of him.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ts_pct_career.html


Dat efficiency. It's all that matters, no?
Are you JR Smith by any chance? Anyone this stupid HAS to be him.

Lebron is a better scorer than Kobe because he scores MORE than Kobe and on better efficiency.

[Sarcastic]

Are you JR Smith by any chance? Anyone this stupid HAS to be him.

Lebron is a better scorer than Kobe because he scores MORE than Kobe and on better efficiency.


That makes him a more efficient scorer. Also they play different positions, so it's not exactly an apples to apples comparison.

Also are we comparing peak Lebron to past prime Kobe? Because at Kobe's best, he put up 35ppg. I don't think Lebron has ever scored MORE than that in a season.

[lakerspng]

Wy do people keep insisting that Kobe was not good enough when he came into the league to start?

The Lakers had a returning all star in that position, Eddie Jones. an unproven rookie, in a time when they didn't like starting high school players, over a proven star? yeah not going to happen. Lakers had the luxury to force Kobe to take his time and develop, but some people use it as a condemnation against him. idiots.

Kobe was easily good enough to start, even Jerry West believed he was one of the most ready players he's ever worked out prior to drafting him. Almost any other team in the league he would have started, but having just brought in Shaq, spent all the money they had, the Lakers could not afford to take chances, they had to go with the proven asset because they had to win right away, and that was Eddie Jones.

[Donkey4trading]

Are you JR Smith by any chance? Anyone this stupid HAS to be him.

Lebron is a better scorer than Kobe because he scores MORE than Kobe and on better efficiency.

And Adrian Dantley is a better scorer than Lebron, head and shoulders above a Lebron.. Kobes had his b2b 30 pt seasons..

but honestly in Dantleys 80-81 he was a better scorer than Lebrons ever been.
Dantley put up 31 ppg on 56% with only 20 FGA per game

[tmacattack33]

LeBron is great at manipulating his stats.

Don't get me wrong, he is a very good player, the best today, but he is aware of his stats and he knows how to keep them where he wants them

Kobe doesn't care. He has the skill to take difficult shots, and he is only 4% behind or something like that in FG%

Seeing the way LeBron was guarded in the Finals against the Spurs is all anyway needs to know that Kobe is a much better scorer than LeBron

Give Kobe ten feet of space, he will drop Finals records PPG.

Kobe is stopped when he has an off-night and starts bricking. LeBron is also stopped when he has an off-night and starts bricking, or... you could just give him ten feet of space.

Yes, it is that easy.

So easy that 90% of teams on regular season nights can't do it.

And so easy that in the past three post-seasons, the only teams to do it have been San Antonio and Dallas...meanwhile, these teams have failed at it, despite having a whole 7 game series to implement it: Indiana (twice), Boston (twice), Chicago (twice), New York, Milwaukee, and Philadelphia

[Hoopz2332]

That makes him a more efficient scorer. Also they play different positions, so it's not exactly an apples to apples comparison.

Also are we comparing peak Lebron to past prime Kobe? Because at Kobe's best, he put up 35ppg. I don't think Lebron has ever scored MORE than that in a season.

In kobe's best off season lebron scored a shade under 32 while taking 4+ shots less than KObe!

Kobe on 12 FGM on 27.2 FGA .450 FG%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01/gamelog/2006/

lebron 11.1 fgm 23.1 fga .484 FG%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2006/

[jstern]

Wy do people keep insisting that Kobe was not good enough when he came into the league to start?

The Lakers had a returning all star in that position, Eddie Jones. an unproven rookie, in a time when they didn't like starting high school players, over a proven star? yeah not going to happen. Lakers had the luxury to force Kobe to take his time and develop, but some people use it as a condemnation against him. idiots.

Kobe was easily good enough to start, even Jerry West believed he was one of the most ready players he's ever worked out prior to drafting him. Almost any other team in the league he would have started, but having just brought in Shaq, spent all the money they had, the Lakers could not afford to take chances, they had to go with the proven asset because they had to win right away, and that was Eddie Jones.

I remember Phil and the coaching staff wondering if Kobe had vision problems because it seemed as if he would not see wide open players and instead took bad shots.

The guy was not ready. The potential was there, but a long way still to go.

[Sarcastic]

In kobe's best off season lebron scored a shade under 32 while taking 4+ shots less than KObe!

Kobe on 12 FGM on 27.2 FGA .450 FG%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01/gamelog/2006/

lebron 11.1 fgm 23.1 fga .484 FG%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2006/


Lebron is more efficient. That doesn't automatically mean better though.

[aj1987]

That makes him a more efficient scorer. Also they play different positions, so it's not exactly an apples to apples comparison.
:facepalm Seriously, dude? Forget about efficiency and just look at the PPG. Lebron averages 2.1 PPG more than Kobe.


Also are we comparing peak Lebron to past prime Kobe? Because at Kobe's best, he put up 35ppg. I don't think Lebron has ever scored MORE than that in a season.
Do you want to do the first 10 seasons?

Kobe - 23.9 PPG
Lebron - 27.6 PPG

[avonbarksdale]

kobe is also a better winner than lebron according to all stats...


last time i checked 5 rings > 2

[KyleKong]

Context? Bryant came off the bench and deferred to O'Neal for years. When did James 35 ppg season happen again? Troll.

When did James lose in the first round of the playoffs?

YOLO.

[avonbarksdale]

81 points, at one point kobe could string together streaks of 40 and 50 point games like it was nothing, quit trolling. lebron is a great scorer but its fairly obvious that if you have ever actually watched these guys play kobe is the better scorer

[KyleKong]

81 points, at one point kobe could string together streaks of 40 and 50 point games like it was nothing, quit trolling. lebron is a great scorer but its fairly obvious that if you have ever actually watched these guys play kobe is the better scorer

46 shots, 20 FTAs.

LeBron could score 100 points given those numbers.

[Hoopz2332]

81 points, at one point kobe could string together streaks of 40 and 50 point games like it was nothing, quit trolling. lebron is a great scorer but its fairly obvious that if you have ever actually watched these guys play kobe is the better scorer


kobe chucked his ass off in those streaks too:oldlol:

[tmacattack33]

81 points, at one point kobe could string together streaks of 40 and 50 point games like it was nothing, quit trolling. lebron is a great scorer but its fairly obvious that if you have ever actually watched these guys play kobe is the better scorer

If one game or a hot streak is your argument here you lost.

And I guess Jamal Crawford and Gilbert Arenas are on Wade's level in terms of scoring. As they have as many 50 point games as he does.

[jstern]

David Robinson decided one day that he was going to score as many points as possible to win the Scoring Title, and he score 70+ points. Just one try. Imagine how many players can score 81 points if they just decided to go for it without shame. Shoot and shoot away.

[funnystuff]

46 shots, 20 FTAs.

LeBron could score 100 points given those numbers.
At least.

[aj1987]

When did James lose in the first round of the playoffs?

YOLO.
He didn't make the playoffs twice.

Can anyone tell me what the actual definition of a "better scorer" is, BTW? I always thought that X scoring more points than Y makes X a better scorer than Y.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

David Rombinson decided one day that he was going to score as many points as possible to win the Scoring Title, and he score 70+ points. Just one try. Imagine how many players can score 81 points if they just decided to go for it without shame. Shoot and shoot away.

Well said :applause:

[Hoopz2332]

Lebron is more efficient. That doesn't automatically mean better though.


lebron takes a somewhat similar volume of shots and converts @ a higher rate therefore = a better scorer.

[lakerspng]

I remember Phil and the coaching staff wondering if Kobe had vision problems because it seemed as if he would not see wide open players and instead took bad shots.

The guy was not ready. The potential was there, but a long way still to go.
Phil wasn't the coach when Kobe came into the league. Del Harris was.

[Hoopz2332]

To put Kobe's peak scoring outputs eff wise into context with lebron, Durant and Melo


Going off RRR3's post, it's not even just about LeBron, Kobe, and even Durant being more prolific scorers than Kobe, they're also more efficient scorers, especially Durant and LeBron.


Best FG% Season
LeBron: .565
Durant: .510
Kobe: .469
Carmelo: .492

Best TS% Season
LeBron: .640
Durant: .647
Kobe: .580
Carmelo: .568

Best eFG% Season
LeBron: .603
Durant: .559
Kobe: .504
Carmelo: .511


In fact, Durant has 5 seasons with a better TS% than Carmelo's single best season; LeBron has 5, also; Kobe has 3. This guy wants to argue Carmelo is the best scorer of all-time and he's not even the best scorer of his generation. Just because Carmelo may be the most versatile scorer doesn't mean he's the best.

[lakerspng]

anyone who thinks LeBron is a better overall scorer than Kobe is just trolling.

Better playmaker, stat maker, sure. scorer, no.

Wish the season would start already so people can at least troll on games, this board is nearly unreadable at this point.

[TheMarkMadsen]

46 shots, 20 FTAs.

LeBron could score 100 points given those numbers.

Lebron took 36 shots to score 56 points.

Kobe took 46 shots to score 81 points.

Lebrons team lost by 7 after trailing by 2 at half

Kobes team won by 18 after trailing by 14 at half

They both were playing the exact same team..

Also. Kobe had 5 other teammates attempt 5 or more shots.

Lebron had 3 other teammates attempt 5 or more shots

[TheMarkMadsen]

lebron takes a somewhat similar volume of shots and converts @ a higher rate therefore = a better scorer.


So then you agree that Dantley is a better scorer than Lebron

Dantley shot less per game, scored more per game and did it on better efficiency

[aj1987]

Anyone? How can Kobe be a better scorer than Lebron, when he scores FEWER points than Lebron on worse efficiency?

[Leviathon1121]

did you count lebrons years after his prime like kobes stats dictate :bowdown: dumb bron stans. :facepalm

Kobe stans have been including Jordan's Wizard years for almost a decade now.

[aj1987]

So then you agree that Dantley is a better scorer than Lebron

Dantley shot less per game, scored more per game and did it on better efficiency
Over their first 10 years.
Dantley - 26.5 PPG
Lebron James - 27.6

[jstern]

Phil wasn't the coach when Kobe came into the league. Del Harris was.
That's true. Now I'm not sure which coach said, but it was said. So I don't know if it was Kobe's first year or when Phil came in.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Over their first 10 years.
Dantley - 26.5 PPG
Lebron James - 27.6

Dantley - 4x seasons of 30ppg on 56% FG / 63% TS
Lebron - 2 seasons of 30ppg on 48% FG / 57% TS

Dantley was a better scorer during his peak, right?

[andgar923]

As I've always stated:

Kobe = more versatile scorer
Bron= more efficient

Is that so hard to grasp?

:confusedshrug:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Over their first 10 years.
Dantley - 26.5 PPG
Lebron James - 27.6


Dantley: 4 straight years of 30+ppg on 55+% and 20 FGA or less per game.

Just aa many points as Lebron ever averaged, for 4 straight years on 55+ fg%

Dantley in 81 was a better scorer than Lebrons ever been

Lebrons best scoring season was 31ppg on 48% on 23 shots per game

Dantleys best scoring season was 31ppg on 56% on 20 shots per game.

Pretty obviously Dantley is better with his 8% difference in FG% and on 3 less shots per game

[Hoopz2332]

So then you agree that Dantley is a better scorer than Lebron

Dantley shot less per game, scored more per game and did it on better efficiency


You can argue that Adrian was the most eff non-big man scorer ever for sure.

http://rafalab.jhsph.edu/simplystats/kobe3.png

[aj1987]

Dantley - 4x seasons of 30ppg on 56% FG / 63% TS
Lebron - 2 seasons of 30ppg on 48% FG / 57% TS

Dantley was a better scorer during his peak, right?
Consistency also has to matter, right? Wade had a 30 PPG season, but I wouldn't call him a better scorer than Bird.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Consistency also has to matter, right? Wade had a 30 PPG season, but I wouldn't call him a better scorer than Bird.

You didn't answer my question. Was Dantley the better scorer in his peak? :confusedshrug:

[aj1987]

Dantley: 4 straight years of 30+ppg on 55+% and 20 FGA or less per game.

Just aa many points as Lebron ever averaged, for 4 straight years on 55+ fg%

Dantley in 81 was a better scorer than Lebrons ever been

Lebrons best scoring season was 31ppg on 48% on 23 shots per game

Dantleys best scoring season was 31ppg on 56% on 20 shots per game.

Pretty obviously Dantley is better with his 8% difference in FG% and on 3 less shots per game
Why are you looking at just the 4 years though. Sure, those 4 years he was a better scorer than Lebron, the same way Kobe has a few seasons, where he was unquestionably a better scorer than Lebron. For Lebron to average more than those guys, in spite of that, he has more seasons where he was a better scorer than either.




You didn't answer my question. Was Dantley the better scorer in his peak?


Peak? Yes he was. If you're just looking at peaks, Dantley is one of the GOAT scorers. Over entire careers? Not so much.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Peak? Yes he was. If you're just looking at peaks, Dantley is one of the GOAT scorers. Over entire careers? Not so much.

At least you guys are consistent. Me personally? I'd wait until Lebron's career is finished (or near the end, like Kobe's) before claiming he is the 'better scorer'.

IMO Kobe's peak scoring, 2006-2008, was better than any of Lebron's scoring seasons.

As an all-around player? Lebron is better. I have him slightly ahead of Kobe on my all-time list.

[juju151111]

At least you guys are consistent. Me personally? I'd wait until Lebron's career is finished (or near the end, like Kobe's) before claiming he is the 'better scorer'.

IMO Kobe's peak scoring, 2006-2008, was better than any of Lebron's scoring seasons.

As an all-around player? Lebron is better. I have him slightly ahead of Kobe on my all-time list.
LJ scores more with less shots. How is 06-08 Kobe better?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

LJ scores more with less shots. How is 06-08 Kobe better?

Dantley scored more w/ less shots, but I don't consider him a better scorer than Lebron. Nor Kobe.

2006-08:
-81 pts
-THREE 60 point games
-FIFTEEN 50 point games (one in the playoffs)
-THIRTY-FOUR 40 point games

Bean is one of the greatest peak scorers ever, really.

[Fresh Kid]

As I've always stated:

Kobe = more versatile scorer
Bron= more efficient

Is that so hard to grasp?

:confusedshrug:
Bron- no heart, most stacked team in NBA history.

[aj1987]

At least you guys are consistent. Me personally? I'd wait until Lebron's career is finished (or near the end, like Kobe's) before claiming he is the 'better scorer'.

IMO Kobe's peak scoring, 2006-2008, was better than any of Lebron's scoring seasons.

As an all-around player? Lebron is better. I have him slightly ahead of Kobe on my all-time list.
I would actually prefer to use the first 10 seasons of Kobe's to compare him against Lebron, scoring wise (overall as well) as Lebron has played only 10 seasons.

'06 and '07? Yeah, they're better than any of Lebrons seasons, scoring wise. '08? Not so much, IMO.



LJ scores more with less shots. How is 06-08 Kobe better?
'06 - 35.4 PPG on 56% TS
'07 - 31.6 PPG on 58% TS

[funnystuff]

Dantley scored more w/ less shots, but I don't consider him a better scorer than Lebron. Nor Kobe.

2006-08:
-81 pts
-THREE 60 point games
-FIFTEEN 50 point games (one in the playoffs)
-THIRTY-FOUR 40 point games

Bean is one of the greatest peak scorers ever, really.
Kobe stans are the only people who prop up regular season feats. Wonder why.

[juju151111]

Dantley scored more w/ less shots, but I don't consider him a better scorer than Lebron. Nor Kobe.

2006-08:
-81 pts
-THREE 60 point games
-FIFTEEN 50 point games (one in the playoffs)
-THIRTY-FOUR 40 point games

Bean is one of the greatest peak scorers ever, really.
Dantley was a great scorer, but LJ and Kobe did it more. LJ has scored more with less shots then Kobe. He on pace to pass him in all time points and took way less shots.

[aj1987]

Kobe stans are the only people who prop up regular season feats. Wonder why.
If they brought up post season play, this thread would've ended in the first page.

5 rings >>> 2 rings

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobe stans are the only people who prop up regular season feats. Wonder why.

This isn't even a response. :oldlol:

Regular season play matters. I have repeatedly said ... EVERYTHING matters.

I forgot to include three of Kobe's 40pt games in the postseason, btw.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Dantley was a great scorer, but LJ and Kobe did it more. LJ has scored more with less shots then Kobe. He on pace to pass him in all time points and took way less shots.

Maybe so, but I don't think he's the better scorer all-time. More consistent? Sure. If he keeps up the pace, who knows? I might change my tune. :confusedshrug:

[Young X]

Even if you go by stats, Kobe's 2007 season is just as good as any of Bron's best seasons scoring wise. Then you add the ten 50 point games, far superior skillset and he has a great argument. Stans won't admit it, but it's close either way, they're both two of the best scorers in league history.

[juju151111]

Maybe so, but I don't think he's the better scorer all-time. More consistent? Sure. If he keeps up the pace, who knows? I might change my tune. :confusedshrug:
I agree to a extent. Kobe can catch fire and is just a pure scorer. They both great scoers in different ways I guess.

[Rysio]

difference is teams try to stop kobe from scoring but for lebrick they let him shoot wide open jumpers.

[DMAVS41]

I don't know why you insist on taking out Lebrons rookie year.

The only reason anybody says to remove Kobes first 3 year in these comparisons is so that they can compare numbers as starters.

Lebron was a starter from day 1 on a horrible team and was given the green light to shoot. He put up 19 shots to score 21 point per game on 41% while missing the playoffs . It's not far fetched to think Kobe could do the same in that situation..

And the only reasons a perimeter player out of HS was picked #1 and given te green light from the get go over a proven college player (Melo) is because of guys like Kobe, KG & Tmac who proved these HS kids could develope into legit stars when they are finally given the chance.

So when comparing stas as starters it's pretty ridiculous to exclude Lebrons first year as a starter. If you're going to do that you might aswell start counting Kobes stats from 00-01. Since Lebron had the green light to put up 20+ shots per game

You end up with Kobe averaging like 1 more ppg on 1 more shot per game.

It's really close, and anybody claiming it isn't is a biased fool.


Also, how big of a trolling hypocrite is DMAVS? Dude has a fit whenever somebody makes a claim about Kobe being better at anything and especially when they say stuff line "it's not even close" an act like certain discussions are beneath Kobe yet this fool is in this thread claiming how its "not even close". Pathetic

ROFL...Kobe stans in the Dirk thread insisted on not starting Kobe's career numbers until 01. You want to do just as a starter now? Hahah...so absurd. So days of arguing about where to start and now you want to start at 99 for Kobe for some crazy reason.

And I ever said it isn't close you moron. I said there is no argument. Lebron scores more and is more efficient...

It actually is close, but there just aren't any arguments that support Kobe as the better scorer.

[Fresh Kid]

difference is teams try to stop kobe from scoring but for lebrick they let him shoot wide open jumpers.
:oldlol:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Kobe stans are the only people who prop up regular season feats. Wonder why.

So 4 regular season MVPs mean nothing

[branslowski]

Kobe stans are the only people who prop up regular season feats. Wonder why.

But you love LeBron's regular season MVPs...:coleman:

[Haks]

Can someone please explain to me how its close but theres no argument. Tslk about an oxymoron of all oxymorons wow DMAVS youve out done yourself today

[Haks]

In my opinion Kobe is a better scorer because you have to look it in context. Stats can tell you alot of things but actually watching the games you would come up with the same conclusion. The deciding factor for me was teams guard lebron wanting him to score because of how deadly of a passer however teams guard Kobe tight and is never really given space in a half court set and yet he still manages to put 28ppg on 58% ts or something along those lines in his 18th season

[TheMarkMadsen]

Can someone please explain to me how its close but theres no argument. Tslk about an oxymoron of all oxymorons wow DMAVS youve out done yourself today

Seriously.

Page 2 DMAVS "there's really no argument"

4 pages later..

"I never said it wasn't close"

:biggums:

[branslowski]

LeBron is not a better scorer than Kobe. Stop this nonsense. :oldlol:

Spurs would never leave Kobe wide open nor place fat ass Boris Diaw on him. :oldlol:

Yawl Kobe haters cute doe

[DMAVS41]

Seriously.

Page 2 DMAVS "there's really no argument"

4 pages later..

"I never said it wasn't close"

:biggums:

Something can be close...hence Kobe comes close in ppg and efficiency and whatever else you want to mention

But he's behind Lebron in pretty much everything. Hence he's close to Lebron, but we all know that Lebron is the better scorer based on pretty much everything objective.

It's really not hard.

It's like when a team comes close to winning a game but loses. They were close, but there's no argument that they won.

Lebron is a better scorer than Kobe...you guys may not like that...and it may not look pretty...but he is

Just like Durant is a better scorer as well.

Yawl Kobe fans cute doe...thinking somehow Kobe's way better than his stats and every other player is worse

And even then...it would only make them even...ROFL

[aj1987]

The deciding factor for me was teams guard lebron wanting him to score because of how deadly of a passer
Well, that's not working, is it? Lebron is scoring at a ridiculous rate and still manages to dish out ~7.5 assists per game.

Are you saying that Lebron is unstoppable?

[branslowski]

60pt games:

Kobe 3

LeBron 0


50pt games:

Kobe 25

LeBron 9


Highest Season avg:

Kobe 35ppg

LeBron 31ppg

Not to mention Kobe has better footwork, better in the post, better mid range shooter....basically wayy more skilled scorer than LeBron. LeBron is just a 6-9 260lb Forward who gets to the rim more thus higher %.


Yawl funny though. I'm out, gettin me a blunt.

[aj1987]

60pt games:

Kobe 3

LeBron 0


50pt games:

Kobe 25

LeBron 9


Highest Season avg:

Kobe 35ppg

LeBron 31ppg

Not to mention Kobe has better footwork, better in the post, better mid range shooter....basically wayy more skilled scorer than LeBron. LeBron is just a 6-9 260lb Forward who gets to the rim more thus higher %.


Yawl funny though. I'm out, gettin me a blunt.
First 10 years of their careers:


30+ Games:

Kobe - 207
Lebron - 308

30+ PPG Seasons:

Kobe - 1
Lebron -2

25+ PPG Seasons:

Kobe - 5
Lebron - 9

Total points scored:

Kobe - 16866
Lebron - 21081

[Round Mound]

[B]Blame Lebron For Being "6

[TheMarkMadsen]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Blame Lebron For Being "6

[DMAVS41]

Honestly thirst thread should be closed.

We've already established that Adrian Dantley is a better scorer than both of them.. By a wide margin.

While these 2 chuckers are throwing up 23+ shots per game to get 30 points at nothing better than 48% Adrian Dantley had rallied off 4 straight 30 ppg seasons with incredible efficiency of 55%+ and never averaging more than 20 shots per game.

LOL @ these 2 inferior chuckers

You make it sound like Dantley wasn't an absolutely great scorer for a 6 or 7 year stretch or something. It was absurd how easily he could score...

But that red herring won't fly here buddy...Lebron and Kobe have played in the same era. So you may not like it, but in the same era...Lebron has been able to score more ppg in both the regular season and playoffs on better overall efficiency than Kobe. Both have done it while playing on great teams and both have done it while playing on poor teams. Both have done it while carrying teams and playing quality defense...etc.

This is like the Dirk thread all over again...except that Lebron has even more evidence at his disposal.

Better scorer...means tangible measurable better results. Yet for some reason Kobe doesn't have them.

[funnystuff]

:lol

[Round Mound]

Honestly thirst thread should be closed.

We've already established that Adrian Dantley is a better scorer than both of them.. By a wide margin.

While these 2 chuckers are throwing up 23+ shots per game to get 30 points at nothing better than 48% Adrian Dantley had rallied off 4 straight 30 ppg seasons with incredible efficiency of 55%+ and never averaging more than 20 shots per game.

LOL @ these 2 inferior chuckers

:applause:

Great Scorers Shoot and Make MOST of Their Shots, While Not Taking Excessive Amount of Shots In Order To Blend With the Team (The Other Way Around: Chucking)

A.D Is The Greatest Scoring SF Ever By a Large Margin As Sir Charles Barkley is the Greatest Scoring PF Ever (2nd Kevin McHale). Sir Charles Learned From A.D Alot In Terms of How To Use His Body vs Taller Players. He Mentions This Right Before He Was Inducted to the HOF.

Kobe Bryant is a Very Good Scorer But There Have Been Plenty of More Impressive Scorers in the NBA

[aj1987]

:applause:

Great Scorers Shoot and Make MOST of Their Shots, While Not Taking Excessive Amount of Shots In Order To Blend With the Team (The Other Way Around: Chucking)

A.D Is The Greatest Scoring SF Ever By a Large Margin As Sir Charles Barkley is the Greatest Scoring PF Ever (2nd Kevin McHale). Sir Charles Learned From A.D Alot In Terms of How To Use His Body vs Taller Players. He Mentions This Right Before He Was Inducted to the HOF.

Kobe Bryant is a Very Good Scorer But There Have Been Plenty of More Impressive Scorers in the NBA
Dude, he was being sarcastic with the "Dantley is a better scorer" comment.

[secund2nun]

Kobe is one of the most overrated athletes and scores of all time. If Lebron shot as much as Kobe he would average 35+ PPG every season.

[branslowski]

Kobe is one of the most overrated athletes and scores of all time. If Lebron shot as much as Kobe he would average 35+ PPG every season.

The delusional post get even funnier.:roll:

[branslowski]

First 10 years of their careers:


30+ Games:

Kobe - 207
Lebron - 308

30+ PPG Seasons:

Kobe - 1
Lebron -2

25+ PPG Seasons:

Kobe - 5
Lebron - 9

Total points scored:

Kobe - 16866
Lebron - 21081

I showed the whole body of work numbers. Then you had to change the gauge to "first 10yrs". Dat reaching:roll:

[secund2nun]

The delusional post get even funnier.:roll:

The truth hurts huh?

[branslowski]

The truth hurts huh?

What truth? What you posted? :roll:

You know damn well it isn't, get ya trolling nonsense out of here.:oldlol:

[K]

bulldozer vs ballerina

I take the bulldozer and I don't care if it isn't as pretty and skillful.

:confusedshrug:

[Doranku]

[QUOTE=K

[Trollsmasher]

Lol, Kobe stans wish Bryant was in the same league as Dantley as a scorer.

[FiveRings]

In my opinion Kobe is a better scorer because you have to look it in context. Stats can tell you alot of things but actually watching the games you would come up with the same conclusion. The deciding factor for me was teams guard lebron wanting him to score because of how deadly of a passer however teams guard Kobe tight and is never really given space in a half court set and yet he still manages to put 28ppg on 58% ts or something along those lines in his 18th season
Yep. You have to remember though, a lot of Lebron fans are boxscore watchers and apparently haven't seen enough prime Kobe to look at things in the proper context. Not only is what you said true, but on top of that the two players play different positions. Lebron defenders act like that's completely irrelevant when defending their guy. Let's look at a guy who plays a different position from both Kobe and Lebron. Dwight Howard in 2010-11 scored 22.9 ppg, which is only a few points less than some of Lebron and Kobe's seasons, and Dwight did it on 59.3% shooting. Dwight even shot a better percentage than that two different seasons. No one in their right mind would say Dwight was a better scorer than Kobe or Lebron though, because Dwight plays a different position so it's not an apples to apples comparison. Same with the comparison of Lebron as a scorer to Kobe. These guys do not play the same position Lebron stans! But of course, not ignoring that fact hurts the Lebron defenders agenda so they act like it's completely irrelevant when it is very relevant.

It's all the more impressive that Bryant is the better scorer when you take into account the physical advantages James has over Bryant. He's a couple inches taller than Kobe and he has that freak of nature frame to his body. Also, Lebron cherrypicks shots, has it in his mind during the game that he wants to shoot a certain percentage, and will stop shooting if he's having an off night to protect his stats.

Some Lebron defenders say Kobe wasn't good enough when he came into the league so it's fair to include seasons like his rookie year when he was only given 15 mpg compared to Lebron who was given 39 mpg his rookie year. What these clowns aren't taking into account is that if drafted to the Cavs, Kobe sure as hell would not be playing 15 mpg :lol Lebron's past his prime years have yet to happen as well, and most people don't think he's going to be as good of a scorer as Kobe for as long as Kobe has been because Kobe has the better jumpshot, fundamentals, footwork, etc.

[avonbarksdale]

you guys are so dumb, its like 'kobe scored 81' 'YEAH WELL IF LEBRON WANTED TO HE COULD SO COULD ANYONE'

like what a bad argument, well he didn't

lebron has never even dropped 60 before, if hes a better scorer why hasn't he

oh let me guess 'LEBRON ISNT SUM CHUCKER LOL'

[avonbarksdale]

also no one but kobe and wilt have even dropped 80+ so im sure in the 67 years the nba has existed no one else has just 'wanted' to score 80, even all the countless times an elite scorer has been on a non playoff team where he easily could pad his stats and the coach realistally would give him a green light

[branslowski]

also no one but kobe and wilt have even dropped 80+ so im sure in the 67 years the nba has existed no one else has just 'wanted' to score 80, even all the countless times an elite scorer has been on a non playoff team where he easily could pad his stats and the coach realistally would give him a green light

Bro, trust...If they polled the world on "who's the greatest scorer you ever seen?" With Jordan, Kobe, and LeBron as the selections the voting would go like:

53% Jordan
37% Kobe
10% LeBron

[Haks]

Only boxscore watchers will say
'Well Lebron has more PPG and is more efficient so he is a better scorer' by that measure Wilt is a better scorer than both lebron kobe and jordan and we all know. WE all know that aint true.

[7_cody]

Yes, it is that easy.

So easy that 90% of teams on regular season nights can't do it.

And so easy that in the past three post-seasons, the only teams to do it have been San Antonio and Dallas...meanwhile, these teams have failed at it, despite having a whole 7 game series to implement it: Indiana (twice), Boston (twice), Chicago (twice), New York, Milwaukee, and Philadelphia

Actually, teams can force LeBron for the shot to slow him down. They do it all the time. It doesn't mean that is the best game plan to win the game, however, we are only talking about LeBron's scoring. LeBron is so good that scoring isn't even his best attribute. But he definitely can...

He has severe weaknesses when it comes to scoring, and he can be stopped/slowed down - but that isn't always the best game plan

Speaking plainly in terms of scoring - what would happen if you played Kobe for the open jumper? He'd destroy you, unless he's having one of his off-nights. You can't exploit Kobe defensively. He has no offensive weakness. He is the complete scorer, unlike LeBron James.

Again, we are only talking about scoring.

Please don't dodge my critical points. Answer this, if you actually can, what would happen if you played Kobe the same way?

Yeah. He'd drop Finals scoring records. You know it, I know it. So, again, who is the better scorer???

edit: Just watch some games man. Teams game plan to stop Kobe. They can't always want to do that to LeBron, because he is such a willing passer and LeBron WILL punish the defense every time. Kobe takes hero shots, difficult shots, entertains the hell out of the crowd and puts up a hell of a show while STILL putting up competitive FG% numbers. Yeah, who is the more skilled scorer again??

You don't even have to feature Kobe on offense. Hell, Kobe will score in any offense that he is in. Not the same for LeBron. LeBron does good in the LeBron offense.

[aj1987]

Dwight Howard in 2010-11 scored 22.9 ppg, which is only a few points less than some of Lebron and Kobe's seasons, and Dwight did it on 59.3% shooting
:facepalm Kobe stans.
Do you even read what you type? You said that Dwight scored fewer points than Lebron and Kobe. He cannot be a better scorer by scoring less than them. How the hell is that so hard to understand? In his best scoring season, he scored 4 points fewer per game than Lebron's worst scoring seasons (other than his rookie year). Even if Dwight Howard played Point Guard or Shooting Guard or whatever, scoring 23 PPG wouldn't make him a better scorer than Kobe or Lebron. Dumb example.



It's all the more impressive that Bryant is the better scorer when you take into account the physical advantages James has over Bryant. He's a couple inches taller than Kobe and he has that freak of nature frame to his body.
So what? Jordan was better than Kobe in every physical aspect. Kobe stans, you should just give up.



Also, Lebron cherrypicks shots, has it in his mind during the game that he wants to shoot a certain percentage, and will stop shooting if he's having an off night to protect his stats.

And that's why Lebron is the better player. If he's not making his shots, he tries to pass the ball and set his teammates up for some open looks. Something which Kobe, after 17 years in the league, still hasn't learned. There's a reason why a LOT of people consider Kobe to be a chucker and ball hog. If Kobe has an off night, he shoots his team out of the game.


if drafted to the Cavs, Kobe sure as hell would not be playing 15 mpg
Lebron, before being drafted, was extremely hyped. People were thinking that he was going to be on Jordan's and Magic's level. There's a reason why Lebron was picked #1 and Kobe #13.

I literally have to see a single Kobetard explain why Kobe is a better scorer with shit other than "context" and "Kobe has x number of 50 point games".

[FiveRings]

:facepalm Kobe stans.
Do you even read what you type? You said that Dwight scored fewer points than Lebron and Kobe. He cannot be a better scorer by scoring less than them. How the hell is that so hard to understand? In his best scoring season, he scored 4 points fewer per game than Lebron's worst scoring seasons (other than his rookie year). Even if Dwight Howard played Point Guard or Shooting Guard or whatever, scoring 23 PPG wouldn't make him a better scorer than Kobe or Lebron. Dumb example.
Dwight scored 4 points fewer than Lebron, just like at Lebron's best he scored 4 points fewer than Kobe at his best. Lebron fans have been arguing that those 4 points between Lebron and Kobe make very little difference because of the percentage that Kobe shot. Lebron shot a higher percentage on 4 ppg less just like Dwight shot a higher percentage than Lebron on 4 ppg less. See where I'm going with this? Anyways, all I was trying to show is that comparing Lebron's percentages to Kobe's is not an apples to apples comparison and that field goal percentage is only part of the bigger picture.


So what? Jordan was better than Kobe in every physical aspect. Kobe stans, you should just give up.
Of course Jordan had physical advantages over Kobe like his huge hands and superior athleticism. He was also a better scorer than Kobe, while Lebron on the other hand is inferior to Kobe as a scorer while still having physical advantages over him. I never claimed that Kobe is a better scorer because he doesn't have Lebron's physical advantages. I simply said that because of Lebron's physical advantages over Kobe, it all the more impressive that Kobe is the better scorer.


And that's why Lebron is the better player. If he's not making his shots, he tries to pass the ball and set his teammates up for some open looks. Something which Kobe, after 17 years in the league, still hasn't learned. There's a reason why a LOT of people consider Kobe to be a chucker and ball hog. If Kobe has an off night, he shoots his team out of the game.


Lebron, before being drafted, was extremely hyped. People were thinking that he was going to be on Jordan's and Magic's level. There's a reason why Lebron was picked #1 and Kobe #13.

I literally have to see a single Kobetard explain why Kobe is a better scorer with shit other than "context" and "Kobe has x number of 50 point games".
If you say so. Five championships disagree with you and show that the Kobe System does indeed work. Horrible shooting nights come with the territory. Some nights he shoots amazing and some nights not so much. It all balances out in the end. You can disagree, but Kobe's won more championships than ANY of his peers.

[aj1987]

Dwight scored 4 points fewer than Lebron, just like at Lebron's best he scored 4 points fewer than Kobe at his best. Lebron fans have been arguing that those 4 points between Lebron and Kobe make very little difference because of the percentage that Kobe shot. Lebron shot a higher percentage on 4 ppg less just like Dwight shot a higher percentage than Lebron on 4 ppg less. See where I'm going with this? Anyways, all I was trying to show is that comparing Lebron's percentages to Kobe's is not an apples to apples comparison and that field goal percentage is only part of the bigger picture.
The difference is, 23 PPG is pretty low for someone to be considered to be a great scorer. Lebron averaged 27.6 PPG for his career. Not 20. Forget about the percentages and everything. Lebron over his 10 year career has outscored Kobe. Did Kobe have a couple of seasons where he scored more than Lebron? Duh! But, Lebron has consistently scored more than Kobe thus far. Lebron having a better efficiency is just the kicker.

Even if you consider Kobe's absolute prime (from '01 to '10), he outscored Lebron (including Lebron's rookie year) by just 0.9 PPG on 1.7 shots more per game. Just to be clear, this is comparing Kobe's absolute prime and Lebron's whole career including his rookie year.



Of course Jordan had physical advantages over Kobe like his huge hands and superior athleticism. He was also a better scorer than Kobe, while Lebron on the other hand is inferior to Kobe as a scorer while still having physical advantages over him. I never claimed that Kobe is a better scorer because he doesn't have Lebron's physical advantages. I simply said that because of Lebron's physical advantages over Kobe, it all the more impressive that Kobe is the better scorer.
Well, I guess we'll have to disagree. IMO, Lebron's the better scorer.



If you say so. Five championships disagree with you and show that the Kobe System does indeed work. Horrible shooting nights come with the territory. Some nights he shoots amazing and some nights not so much. It all balances out in the end. You can disagree, but Kobe's won more championships than ANY of his peers.
So, Kobe's a streaky scorer. I would rather have a scorer who is consistent and efficient.

[Mr Exlax]

They both are good /thread

[longtime lurker]

Jesus stat nerds are ruining basketball. There was a thread earlier this summer where even Danny Green said Kobe is a better scorer. And he didn't even get to face prime Kobe. When Lebron is considered one of the top 3 scorers ever then we can talk I'll even make it easier and start this conversation when he's in the top 5

[tpols]

Lebrons playmaking opens up plenty of lanes for his scoring.. as does his defense especially in he regular season with all those fast breaks.


Its like comparing the takedown statistics of a legendary wrestler to that of a fighter who has both great striking ability and wrestling. Of course the guy who leans on 90 percent wrestling is going to have a tougher time securing a takedown because the defense fully expects it ..if he gets you down however youre getting chokes out

[Hoopz2332]

you guys are so dumb, its like 'kobe scored 81' 'YEAH WELL IF LEBRON WANTED TO HE COULD SO COULD ANYONE'

like what a bad argument, well he didn't

lebron has never even dropped 60 before, if hes a better scorer why hasn't he

oh let me guess 'LEBRON ISNT SUM CHUCKER LOL'


lebron has many games where he's so hot (easy 20 point qtrs) he could chuck some more for 60 because he always seems to stop shooting and goes into "point guard mode". KObe keeps shooting. Kobe has atleast like near ten, 40+ field goals attempted games while lebron has none. I would put money on it Kobe has atleast 15 more 35+ FGA type games. lebron hardley ever like evn putting up 30 FGA games where Kobe probably has more than double the amount of those games.

[red1]

If kobe had a better mentality then this wouldnt even be a discussion since he is clearly the more skilled/complete scorer. In reality, they are both on a similar tier with both players having a case.

[red1]

I will say this though, if I am forced to choose a player for a game-winning jumpshot, kobe>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lebron

[noob cake]

If kobe had a better mentality then this wouldnt even be a discussion since he is clearly the more skilled/complete scorer. In reality, they are both on a similar tier with both players having a case.

Kobe is a more skilled scorer, but LeBron is more effective.

There are plenty of players with better post games than Shaq, but they weren't better scorers.

LeBron is dominant because he is a complete 2 way player who can play 4 positions easily.

[upside24]

You guys really want to do this again? Word for word?

"But Shaq held him back!"

"But Shaq drew doubles!"


"Skills!"

"Shooting percentage!"


Im not gonna stop you if you do. Im just wondering. This how you want to spend your day?
:applause: :roll:

[AintNoSunshine]

kobe is also a better winner than lebron according to all stats...


last time i checked 5 rings > 2

Better coattail rider for sure, 2 rings + 2 FMVP > 1 real ring + 1 real FMVP

[branslowski]

Better coattail rider for sure, 2 rings + 2 FMVP > 1 real ring + 1 real FMVP

You make that troll comment. But hate troll comments like "LeBron got 1.5 rings because the shorten year"......Not all there in the brain huh?....:biggums:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Better coattail rider for sure, 2 rings + 2 FMVP > 1 real ring + 1 real FMVP


Kobes 01 playoff run was arguably better than Lebrons run in 13 and on par with his run in 2012

Lebron 2013 playoffs: 26ppg 8rpg 7apg on 49%

Kobe Bryant 2001 playoffs: 29.4ppg 7rpg 6apg on 47%

Lebron 2013 ECF: 29 7 & 5 on 51%

Kobe 2001 WCF: 33 7 & 7 on 51%

That's hardly riding the coat tails

[aj1987]

Lebron 2013 ECF: 29 7 & 5 on 51%

Kobe 2001 WCF: 33 7 & 7 on 51%
Don't Kobe fans usually use TS%?

Lebron 61%
Kobe 57%

Also, Shaq averaged 27/13/3 on 55% TS, while diverting a lot of attention from Kobe. Not to mention Fisher averaging 18/5/3 on 77%

Wade (the second best player on the Heat) averaged 16/5/4 on 50%.

[KNOW1EDGE]

those "stats" don't mean sh1t.

Watch LeBron shoot, then watch Kobe shoot. Just look at their mechanics.

Use your brain.

Kobes jumper, 3 point shot, and clutch factor are leaps and bounds ahead of LeBrons

[aj1987]

those "stats" don't mean sh1t.

Watch LeBron shoot, then watch Kobe shoot. Just look at their mechanics.

Use your brain.

Kobes 3 point shot, and clutch factor are leaps and bounds ahead of LeBrons
Lebron shoots at a better rate than Kobe from the 3 point like, while taking almost the same number of 3's. Also, Lebron makes more shots than Kobe in the clutch. At the end of the day, isn't that what you want? The ball to go in? What does it matter is Kobe's "mechanics" are better if he can't do it at the rate Lebron is doing?

[HurricaneKid]

LeBron has taken 35 shots and missed more than he made ONE TIME (through he has only taken 35 FGA 3 times and never over 36).

20 times Kobe has shot more than that. Only in 4 of those games did he shoot >.500. In fact, in games he shot 37+ times, more than LeBron has ever shot in his career (and 20 games is a big sample size), he shot 44% which is a full 1% lower than his career avg. So when he is out there in full gunner mode he is actually shooting worse too.

[KNOW1EDGE]

Lebron shoots at a better rate than Kobe from the 3 point like, while taking almost the same number of 3's. Also, Lebron makes more shots than Kobe in the clutch. At the end of the day, isn't that what you want? The ball to go in? What does it matter is Kobe's "mechanics" are better if he can't do it at the rate Lebron is doing?

Please show me some sort of stat to back that up or gtfo. I will go out on a limb here and say Kobe has twice as many game winners, buzzer beaters etc than LBJ. Also scores more in the 4th quarter. Kobe is farrrr more clutch than LeBron, its really not even close.

And Kobes mechanics only come in to play because his are better in turn making him the better shooter, also has a better turn around, softer touch around the basket etc etc. LeBron is simply stronger and bigger making it easier for him to score in the paint.

[aj1987]

Please show me some sort of stat to back that up or gtfo. I will go out on a limb here and say Kobe has twice as many game winners, buzzer beaters etc than LBJ. Also scores more in the 4th quarter. Kobe is farrrr more clutch than LeBron, its really not even close.

And Kobes mechanics only come in to play because his are better in turn making him the better shooter, also has a better turn around, softer touch around the basket etc etc. LeBron is simply stronger and bigger making it easier for him to score in the paint.
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/58575/lebron-james-isnt-clutch-think-again

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/columns/story?columnist=haberstroh_tom&page=KobeLeBronclutch-101222

http://82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

[Round Mound]

[B]Kobe Stans (Not Real Kobe Fans) Will Also Probably Say That David Robinson

[Rysio]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Kobe Stans (Not Real Kobe Fans) Will Also Probably Say That David Robinson

[HurricaneKid]

Please show me some sort of stat to back that up or gtfo. I will go out on a limb here and say Kobe has twice as many game winners, buzzer beaters etc than LBJ. Also scores more in the 4th quarter. Kobe is farrrr more clutch than LeBron, its really not even close.


Kobe? Is that you??

[0000000]

It's like comparing a Ferrari to a Hummer....sort of. Or Batman to a Superman..you get the point.

LeBron's scoring arsenal is far from pretty. But gets the job done.
Kobe is easily more skilled, has a beautiful game, every move in the book...just doesn't have the brute force.

LeBron, next to Shaq is the most dominant player the game has ever seeen.
Kobe OTOH lokely has more moves than anyone ever and does everything great.

I personally consider Kobe the greatest scorer ever. I don't think the stats tell the whole story. I consider LeBron better overall and more dominant.
It's hard to say however. Kobe at his peak could score 40 or 50 easily and beat teams by himself. He led the starting line up of Smush Parker, Luke Walton and Kwame Brown to the playoffs. I also think he was held back by Shaq.

All in all, scoring wise, it's Kobe for me. LeBron will score just as much on a normal day but if you need him to score 40 or 50, he can't do it. Kobe can do it in his sleep. LeBron does compensate for that, he's a smart player, has great shot selection and all...but we're talking only about scoring here.
Scoring 40 or 50 is normal for Kobe and a feat for LeBron, even a career high if it's over 56.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Please show me some sort of stat to back that up or gtfo. I will go out on a limb here and say Kobe has twice as many game winners, buzzer beaters etc than LBJ. Also scores more in the 4th quarter. Kobe is farrrr more clutch than LeBron, its really not even close.

And Kobes mechanics only come in to play because his are better in turn making him the better shooter, also has a better turn around, softer touch around the basket etc etc. LeBron is simply stronger and bigger making it easier for him to score in the paint.

You are a perfect representation of the brainwashed sheep that is the product of the media.

[HurricaneKid]

All in all, scoring wise, it's Kobe for me. LeBron will score just as much on a normal day but if you need him to score 40 or 50, he can't do it. Kobe can do it in his sleep. LeBron does compensate for that, he's a smart player, has great shot selection and all...but we're talking only about scoring here.
Scoring 40 or 50 is normal for Kobe and a feat for LeBron, even a career high if it's over 56.

People still don't get LeBron. He isn't driven to score. He is driven to make the right play. So when he has 25 at the end of the first he feels like he is done scoring and he can do other things. Kobe feels like it gives him a shot at history. The problem is that when you light people up like that you get more defensive attention. So LeBron's way is generally the far better team play. As I mentioned above, in the games Kobe has taken massive numbers of shots chasing history he actually shoots worse than his overall averages. IMO this is NOT something to strive to.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Don't Kobe fans usually use TS%?

Lebron 61%
Kobe 57%

Also, Shaq averaged 27/13/3 on 55% TS, while diverting a lot of attention from Kobe. Not to mention Fisher averaging 18/5/3 on 77%

Wade (the second best player on the Heat) averaged 16/5/4 on 50%.


Yeah just admit you were wrong and move on.

Kobe putting up similar if not better #s thank Lebron 2 championship runs is not "riding the coat tails"

[aj1987]

Yeah just admit you were wrong and move on.

Kobe putting up similar if not better #s thank Lebron 2 championship runs is not "riding the coat tails"
Wait. How the hell was I wrong?

[7_cody]

People still don't get LeBron. He isn't driven to score. He is driven to make the right play. So when he has 25 at the end of the first he feels like he is done scoring and he can do other things. Kobe feels like it gives him a shot at history. The problem is that when you light people up like that you get more defensive attention. So LeBron's way is generally the far better team play. As I mentioned above, in the games Kobe has taken massive numbers of shots chasing history he actually shoots worse than his overall averages. IMO this is NOT something to strive to.

Exactly, you understand LeBron the same way that I do

But like you said, it was your opinion. I agree with your opinion if we are talking strictly in terms of team basketball. As an entertainer, however? Hell yeah. Kobe is good enough to go for those scoring records. He knows that he is an entertainer and a businessman before a basketball player.

I am not saying that Kobe doesn't play good basketball, he does. If Metta's man rotates to Kobe and leaves him wide open -- Kobe will make that pass. However, if Kobe can split the double team and give himself an open jumper, he'll probably choose that first. A little selfish? Absolutely. A great entertainer? Well, who doesn't like watching someone score 62 points in 3 quarters? The basketball side of you might be thinking, team basketball, it's a team game, but then when he knocks down that contested fadeaway shot you are entertained. I know that I am. Even though I know it is not always the best basketball decision.

I know that I am exaggerating. It's not like Kobe has low IQ or something - but he entertains. Anyone remember when Kobe starting playing the playmaker so that we can make the playoffs? Averaging something like 8 assists a game for a while? He started playing like LeBron because temporarily he knew that he wasn't just going to entertain, he was going to be the best team player so that we could make the playoffs. LeBron could never just play like Kobe - take the shots he does, and score the way that he does.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Wait. How the hell was I wrong?


Better coattail rider for sure, 2 rings + 2 FMVP > 1 real ring + 1 real FMVP

:rolleyes:


Well for starters you make troll statements like Kobe only has 1 real ring. When in fact his 2001 run is just as good if not better than Lebrons run in 2013

Lebrons 2013 playoff run: 26ppg 8rpg 7apg on 49%

Kobe's 2001 playoff run: 29.4ppg 7rpg 7apg on 47%


Lebron 2013 ECF: 29 7 & 5 on 51%

Kobe 2001 WCF: 33 7 & 7 on 51%

So Kobe averaged 4 more points & 2 more assist per game on same FG% in the conference finals.. yet that ring doesn't count?

So there goes your theory about 2001 not counting..

and since this thread is originally about scoring..

Lebron put up 25ppg on 45% in the 2013 finals..

Kobe put up 27ppg on 51% in the 2002 finals..

2 more points on 6% better shooting..

so there goes your theory about 2002 not counting

I don't even need to address 09 & 10, only a troll would try to discount those rings, plus they were done on 30ppg runs..something Lebrons never done on his way to a ring.

oh, and 20YO Kobe also averaged 21 5 & 4 on his way to his first ring..which is significantly better than what D Wade was able to do in his last playoff run..

[aj1987]

:rolleyes:


Well for starters you make troll statements like Kobe only has 1 real ring. When in fact his 2001 run is just as good if not better than Lebrons run in 2013

Lebrons 2013 playoff run: 26ppg 8rpg 7apg on 49%

Kobe's 2001 playoff run: 29.4ppg 7rpg 7apg on 47%


Lebron 2013 ECF: 29 7 & 5 on 51%

Kobe 2001 WCF: 33 7 & 7 on 51%

So Kobe averaged 4 more points & 2 more assist per game on same FG% in the conference finals.. yet that ring doesn't count?

So there goes your theory about 2001 not counting..

and since this thread is originally about scoring..

Lebron put up 25ppg on 45% in the 2013 finals..

Kobe put up 27ppg on 51% in the 2002 finals..

2 more points on 6% better shooting..

so there goes your theory about 2002 not counting

I don't even need to address 09 & 10, only a troll would try to discount those rings, plus they were done on 30ppg runs..something Lebrons never done on his way to a ring.

oh, and 20YO Kobe also averaged 21 5 & 4 on his way to his first ring..which is significantly better than what D Wade was able to do in his last playoff run..
Holy shit! I NEVER said that Kobe has only one real ring. I do however consider him to be the sidekick when they won the rings during the three peat. Doesn't change the fact that he has 5 rings, which he worked for and won. I'm a Wade fan bro. I can't be discounting sidekick rings.

[DMAVS41]

no those are real stat padders. being able to create a good shot at any time from any where inside 35 feet on a nightly basis is what makes a real great scorer.

Where is the impact of that though? If we just go off who "should" be the better scorer...then of course the answer will be Kobe. He has the tools to do things as a scorer that Lebron doesn't.

But if you actually look at what has happened on the court...the answer is different.

This is the part Kobe stans don't get. Kobe makes 3 to 5 terrible decisions a game on offense as a scorer that negates these skillset advantages.

And at some point, after 17 years in the league, we have to actually judge Kobe on what he does and not what he can do. And what he does is score a very similar amount of points to Lebron on overall worse efficiency. That is what he does...plain and simple.

[HurricaneKid]

Exactly, you understand LeBron the same way that I do

But like you said, it was your opinion. I agree with your opinion if we are talking strictly in terms of team basketball. As an entertainer, however? Hell yeah. Kobe is good enough to go for those scoring records. He knows that he is an entertainer and a businessman before a basketball player.

I am not saying that Kobe doesn't play good basketball, he does. If Metta's man rotates to Kobe and leaves him wide open -- Kobe will make that pass. However, if Kobe can split the double team and give himself an open jumper, he'll probably choose that first. A little selfish? Absolutely. A great entertainer? Well, who doesn't like watching someone score 62 points in 3 quarters? The basketball side of you might be thinking, team basketball, it's a team game, but then when he knocks down that contested fadeaway shot you are entertained. I know that I am. Even though I know it is not always the best basketball decision.

I know that I am exaggerating. It's not like Kobe has low IQ or something - but he entertains. Anyone remember when Kobe starting playing the playmaker so that we can make the playoffs? Averaging something like 8 assists a game for a while? He started playing like LeBron because temporarily he knew that he wasn't just going to entertain, he was going to be the best team player so that we could make the playoffs. LeBron could never just play like Kobe - take the shots he does, and score the way that he does.

As a LeBron fan I will readily admit Kobe's game is a more aethetically pleasing game. But no, I can't bring myself to enjoy watching a player continuously take ill-advised shots. Sure, a lot of them go in. The problem is that people think that because a lot of them go in its an acceptable shot. Its not. If Kobe played more like LeBron instead of settling for poor shots too often he would be a 7, maybe 8 time champ. His 2004 Finals performance was it for me. He froze out his three HoF teammates and was horrible. They literally might have been better off had he not played in the Finals.

[Hoopz2332]

LeBron has taken 35 shots and missed more than he made ONE TIME (through he has only taken 35 FGA 3 times and never over 36).

20 times Kobe has shot more than that. Only in 4 of those games did he shoot >.500. In fact, in games he shot 37+ times, more than LeBron has ever shot in his career (and 20 games is a big sample size), he shot 44% which is a full 1% lower than his career avg. So when he is out there in full gunner mode he is actually shooting worse too.


lebron wont shot jack unless he's in one of the "heat check' modes and even then he stops as soon as he misses a few. When lebron scores big it's more in the flow of the offense like this

Heat vs. Hawks: LeBron James highlights - 43 points (3.18.11) - YouTube (43 pints after 3 qtrs)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLC4whwYglg



▶ LeBron On Fire Vs New Orleans Hornets - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0Widfx0ZPk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEjefmLY3Pg

[branslowski]

Holy shit! I NEVER said that Kobe has only one real ring. I do however consider him to be the sidekick when they won the rings during the three peat. Doesn't change the fact that he has 5 rings, which he worked for and won. I'm a Wade fan bro. I can't be discounting sidekick rings.

But you posted on the previous page that Kobe only has 1 real ring and 1 fmvp...:facepalm

[aj1987]

But you posted on the previous page that Kobe only has 1 real ring and 1 fmvp...:facepalm
Where?

[branslowski]

Where?

Dude, I apologize completely.:oldlol: I got u mixed up with aintnosunshine...You right. My bad bro.

[0000000]

People still don't get LeBron. He isn't driven to score. He is driven to make the right play. So when he has 25 at the end of the first he feels like he is done scoring and he can do other things. Kobe feels like it gives him a shot at history. The problem is that when you light people up like that you get more defensive attention. So LeBron's way is generally the far better team play. As I mentioned above, in the games Kobe has taken massive numbers of shots chasing history he actually shoots worse than his overall averages. IMO this is NOT something to strive to.

I get that, but we're talking about scoring here. LeBron is at the same time the combination of brute force and smoothness. He's a force to be reckomed with and it's how he scores most of his points while at the same time he plays the right way and controls the game so smoothly by doing everything and he does it all the right way.

We are however talking about scoring here. I firmly believe you tell each player you need them to score 40 or 50, Kobe will do it, LeBron won't.
Yes, it isn't LeBron's game but I also don't think he is capable of it. Kobe is. I simply consider Kobe a better scorer. I also firmly believe Kobe was one of the rare players who was abe to average 40 ppg as ridiculous as that sounds. I remember that streak of his when he scored 40 for 9 times in a row...effortlessly. He averaged 41.5 ppg that month. Or 4 game streak over 50 points....scoring 60 one night, then 65 few days later lol. LeBron was never capable of that. But who the **** was, that's so ridiculous lol. LeBron's career high of 56....Kobe's done that in 3 quarters on multiple occassions, something even Jordan's never done.

I consider LeBron overall a better player by a hair but scoring wise, it's only Kobe for me. Best of all time IMO.

[7_cody]

As a LeBron fan I will readily admit Kobe's game is a more aethetically pleasing game. But no, I can't bring myself to enjoy watching a player continuously take ill-advised shots. Sure, a lot of them go in. The problem is that people think that because a lot of them go in its an acceptable shot. Its not. If Kobe played more like LeBron instead of settling for poor shots too often he would be a 7, maybe 8 time champ. His 2004 Finals performance was it for me. He froze out his three HoF teammates and was horrible. They literally might have been better off had he not played in the Finals.

Kobe is my favorite player of all time (notice, I did not say that he is the best player of all time) and I agree with everything you just said.

However, most casual fans do enjoy watching Kobe take over. I loved it, but then over the years I became more knowledgeable in bball. I then went through a phase where Kobe was my favorite player still, but I was always criticizing his shot selection and FG%. I now realize that he does that on purpose - he takes the hero shots and entertains the crowd. He is an entertainer.

Now that I see what Kobe is doing, albeit very selfish towards his own personal glory (but then we could argue that any businessman is), then I enjoy his hero shots for what they are. No one else can play like he does and still shoot 46-47%.

BUT - Kobe is easily the most popular player today (worldwide), and is among the best-selling NBA player all-time, so he must be entertaining the hell out of someone with those difficult shots. I guarantee you that if other players could do what he does, then they would, and they would be as popular as he is. Like kblaze said, if it was that easy, than Jr Smith would be the next Kobe.

[Nevaeh]

Kobe is my favorite player of all time (notice, I did not say that he is the best player of all time) and I agree with everything you just said.

However, most casual fans do enjoy watching Kobe take over. I loved it, but then over the years I became more knowledgeable in bball. I then went through a phase where Kobe was my favorite player still, but I was always criticizing his shot selection and FG%. I now realize that he does that on purpose - he takes the hero shots and entertains the crowd. He is an entertainer.

Now that I see what Kobe is doing, albeit very selfish towards his own personal glory (but then we could argue that any businessman is), then I enjoy his hero shots for what they are. No one else can play like he does and still shoot 46-47%.

BUT - Kobe is easily the most popular player today (worldwide), and is among the best-selling NBA player all-time, so he must be entertaining the hell out of someone with those difficult shots. I guarantee you that if other players could do what he does, then they would, and they would be as popular as he is. Like kblaze said, if it was that easy, than Jr Smith would be the next Kobe.

So now we can just excuse dumb shots as "entertaining", because they were intended to go through the hoop? Look, I don't have problem with Kobe fans, per say, but you guys come up with the most twisted logic to justify your favorite player's decision making beyond any fan base of any player in history.

Stats say he takes dumb shots: " Stats don't tell the whole story, you gotta look at the games".


Watch the game and see him taking dumb shots: "You gotta look at the context of why he takes those shots, he has no choice, he's a business man".

You DO understand that owning a business doesn't make you immune to dumb decisions right? Look at how many businesses have "went under" throughout history for evidence of that.

As far as Lebron being a better scorer than Kobe, the facts (and the eye test) both bear this out. shooting a "prettier" jumpshot doesn't make you a better scorer than Lebron. scoring more PPG on better efficiency does.

[Eric Cartman]

So now we can just excuse dumb shots as "entertaining", because they were intended to go through the hoop? Look, I don't have problem with Kobe fans, per say, but you guys come up with the most twisted logic to justify your favorite player's decision making beyond any fan base of any player in history.

Stats say he takes dumb shots: " Stats don't tell the whole story, you gotta look at the games".


Watch the game and see him taking dumb shots: "You gotta look at the context of why he takes those shots, he has no choice, he's a business man".

You DO understand that owning a business doesn't make you immune to dumb decisions right? Look at how many businesses have "went under" throughout history for evidence of that.

As far as Lebron being a better scorer than Kobe, the facts (and the eye test) both bear this out. shooting a "prettier" jumpshot doesn't make you a better scorer than Lebron. scoring more PPG on better efficiency does.

Shaq is a better scorer than both of them and it isn't even close.

Shaq>Lebron>Kobe

[DMAVS41]

Kobe is my favorite player of all time (notice, I did not say that he is the best player of all time) and I agree with everything you just said.

However, most casual fans do enjoy watching Kobe take over. I loved it, but then over the years I became more knowledgeable in bball. I then went through a phase where Kobe was my favorite player still, but I was always criticizing his shot selection and FG%. I now realize that he does that on purpose - he takes the hero shots and entertains the crowd. He is an entertainer.

Now that I see what Kobe is doing, albeit very selfish towards his own personal glory (but then we could argue that any businessman is), then I enjoy his hero shots for what they are. No one else can play like he does and still shoot 46-47%.

BUT - Kobe is easily the most popular player today (worldwide), and is among the best-selling NBA player all-time, so he must be entertaining the hell out of someone with those difficult shots. I guarantee you that if other players could do what he does, then they would, and they would be as popular as he is. Like kblaze said, if it was that easy, than Jr Smith would be the next Kobe.

One of the worsts posts I've seen...

We don't care how entertaining said player is...this is a basketball forum. How entertaining a player is does not make him better or worse...it's a meaningless statement.

[7_cody]

So now we can just excuse dumb shots as "entertaining", because they were intended to go through the hoop? Look, I don't have problem with Kobe fans, per say, but you guys come up with the most twisted logic to justify your favorite player's decision making beyond any fan base of any player in history.

Stats say he takes dumb shots: " Stats don't tell the whole story, you gotta look at the games".


Watch the game and see him taking dumb shots: "You gotta look at the context of why he takes those shots, he has no choice, he's a business man".

You DO understand that owning a business doesn't make you immune to dumb decisions right? Look at how many businesses have "went under" throughout history for evidence of that.

As far as Lebron being a better scorer than Kobe, the facts (and the eye test) both bear this out. shooting a "prettier" jumpshot doesn't make you a better scorer than Lebron. scoring more PPG on better efficiency does.

I don't justify Kobe's shot selection for team basketball purposes. I have never claimed that his shot selection is good for this, but it sure is good for other things. It is part of why he is one of the most popular NBA players of all-time, so many casual fans love to watch hero ball, and Kobe is actually good enough to do it. Also, let's not exaggerate, it doesn't take very many hero shots a game to lower his fg% below 50%. It's not like we're talking about every shot that he takes here.

The stats don't mean anything. Ask Phil Jackson who the better scorer is, is he going to look at stats? Ask Spoelstra the same thing. Are they going to look at or even think about stats?

Kobe is a better scorer because he can score anytime, anywhere regardless of what offense he is in or who the offense is featuring, and regardless of what defense he faces. He has no offensive weakness. Can the same be said for LeBron? heh.... no way... LeBron can score, no doubt, but team defense can easily stop him (they can stop LeBrons scoring, but he will easily punish the team). Let me explain - you can stop LeBron from scoring, but his teammates are going to light it up. You can't stop Kobe from scoring. You just hope that he's cold.

Kobe would easily shoot over 50% if his shot selection was perfect for team basketball. But, with the way teams guard him, he would not get as many of the "proper shot selection" opportunities and his PPG would go down. Kobe says screw that, he is getting his 30 PPG and shattering scoring records. He is good enough to do that. Guard LeBron the same way, he won't be able to do it.

[7_cody]

One of the worsts posts I've seen...

We don't care how entertaining said player is...this is a basketball forum. How entertaining a player is does not make him better or worse...it's a meaningless statement.

Where did I say that taking hero shots and whoo-ing the crowd makes you a more productive basketball player? In fact, I have said the opposite, that it is not good for team basketball but it has gone a long ways towards his popularity.

If you are saying that I went off-topic and talking about Kobe's style of play making him more popular, rather than his ability to score, then I suppose that you're right.

[branslowski]

If your an objective fan, and you don't want to listen to extreme Kobe stans or extreme Kobe haters views on Kobe's shot selection, then read this fantastic objective post from one of the best unbiased posters on this site:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8977696&postcount=27

Kblaze sums it up perfectly.:applause:

[DMAVS41]

Where did I say that taking hero shots and whoo-ing the crowd makes you a more productive basketball player? In fact, I have said the opposite, that it is not good for team basketball but it has gone a long ways towards his popularity.

If you are saying that I went off-topic and talking about Kobe's style of play making him more popular, rather than his ability to score, then I suppose that you're right.


In your response above...you say..

"ask PJ who the better scorer and is he looking at stats?"

The answer...YES!

That is the first thing he'd look at. In fact...he compared MJ and Kobe and one of the first things he talked about was MJ's superior fg%. PJ loves looking at efficiency...it's the first thing he looks at after a game.

[7_cody]

In your response above...you say..

"ask PJ who the better scorer and is he looking at stats?"

The answer...YES!

That is the first thing he'd look at. In fact...he compared MJ and Kobe and one of the first things he talked about was MJ's superior fg%. PJ loves looking at efficiency...it's the first thing he looks at after a game.

Just because he used FG% to talk about accuracy once, doesn't mean that he needed the stats in order to know who the better scorer is. In the interview that you are talking about, he didn't even talk about scoring, he talked about being a better leader and defender if I remember right

He would never do what you do, player X 48% FG, player Y 47.5% FG, Player X is a better scorer than player Y - that's how you argued the better scorer

Your understanding of basketball is limited to PPG and FG%. You have no understanding of the dynamics involved, and you are unaware of how teams defend LeBron v how they defend Kobe Bryant

You actually think that teams could force LeBron into the shots that Kobe takes, and that he would still lead the NBA in PPG

In fact, you think that 50% FG > 45% FG makes you a better scorer, because you quote Phil Jackson saying that 50% FG > 45% makes you more accurate - but you don't know the difference, because you think that being 5% more accurate in an entirely different era and with different teammates means that you are 5% a better scorer.

And I agree with Phil Jackson, Michael Jordan was more accurate. In fact, he was also a better leader (I believe him, Jackson knows Kobe a lot more than I do), and he was a better defender. We are talking about a SHOOTING GUARD that won DPOY. Quite simply, MJ > Kobe

[PJR]

Just because he used FG% to talk about accuracy once, doesn't mean that he needed the stats in order to know who the better scorer is. In the interview that you are talking about, he didn't even talk about scoring, he talked about being a better leader and defender if I remember right


:oldlol: @ this spin job.

[7_cody]

:oldlol: @ this spin job.

Where is the twist? DMAVS claims that the first thing that Phil would do is look at stats in order to determine the better scorer.

The truth is that all Phil Jackson said is that MJ's fg% makes him more accurate. Dwight Howard has a higher FG% than Kobe, is he a better scorer?

edit: Phil Jackson has never said, when asked about who the better scorer is, "Hold on... let me see the stats. Ok, MJ wins in FG%. He is the better scorer."

[DMAVS41]

Just because he used FG% to talk about accuracy once, doesn't mean that he needed the stats in order to know who the better scorer is. In the interview that you are talking about, he didn't even talk about scoring, he talked about being a better leader and defender if I remember right

He would never do what you do, player X 48% FG, player Y 47.5% FG, Player X is a better scorer than player Y - that's how you argued the better scorer

Your understanding of basketball is limited to PPG and FG%. You have no understanding of the dynamics involved, and you are unaware of how teams defend LeBron v how they defend Kobe Bryant

You actually think that teams could force LeBron into the shots that Kobe takes, and that he would still lead the NBA in PPG

In fact, you think that 50% FG > 45% FG makes you a better scorer, because you quote Phil Jackson saying that 50% FG > 45% makes you more accurate - but you don't know the difference, because you think that being 5% more accurate in an entirely different era and with different teammates means that you are 5% a better scorer.

And I agree with Phil Jackson, Michael Jordan was more accurate. In fact, he was also a better leader (I believe him, Jackson knows Kobe a lot more than I do), and he was a better defender. We are talking about a SHOOTING GUARD that won DPOY. Quite simply, MJ > Kobe

What are you talking about? I would never just use one or two things, but outside the objective measures...it mostly boils down to preference and or bias.

I could go on and on why I think Lebron is the better scorer than Kobe. It would involve a lot about decision making and not settling for bad shots...etc.

But again...we have to judge these players on what they actually do...and not what they can do.

It seems you think we should highly value your opinion or anyone's opinion with a backing in something objective. And I could not disagree more.

For the same reason why all GM's said they'd want Billups taking a game winning shot over every other player other than Kobe back in 2011.

Want to hear something crazy? Billups was dead last in the league since like 05 or something on game winning shots.

Do those GM's opinions hold more weight than reality?

Please dude...at some point you'll realize that facts actually matter.

[DMAVS41]

Where is the twist? DMAVS claims that the first thing that Phil would do is look at stats in order to determine the better scorer.

The truth is that all Phil Jackson said is that MJ's fg% makes him more accurate. Dwight Howard has a higher FG% than Kobe, is he a better scorer?

edit: Phil Jackson has never said, when asked about who the better scorer is, "Hold on... let me see the stats. Ok, MJ wins in FG%. He is the better scorer."

If you are comparing like with like? I'd bet the first thing Phil Jackson would look at is efficiency. In fact, when comparing Kobe and MJ...Phil mentioned fg%...and you are trying to spin it...it's comical really.

Facts matter...and they matter more than opinions...even expert opinions.

[7_cody]

What are you talking about? I would never just use one or two things, but outside the objective measures...it mostly boils down to preference and or bias.

I could go on and on why I think Lebron is the better scorer than Kobe. It would involve a lot about decision making and not settling for bad shots...etc.

But again...we have to judge these players on what they actually do...and not what they can do.

It seems you think we should highly value your opinion or anyone's opinion with a backing in something objective. And I could not disagree more.

For the same reason why all GM's said they'd want Billups taking a game winning shot over every other player other than Kobe back in 2011.

Want to hear something crazy? Billups was dead last in the league since like 05 or something on game winning shots.

Do those GM's opinions hold more weight than reality?

Please dude...at some point you'll realize that facts actually matter.

Gotta go. Real quick, you don't have to agree with me. I don't really care. Second, your problem is not that you use "facts", but that you are abusing statistics and interpreting them for more than what they really say, and you fail to understand what statistics are really telling you and how easily manipulated they are

Also, what the GMs know, and that you don't, is that game-winning statistics are not as useful as you think that they are. They, unlike you, understand that there are so many factors involved, such as luck, that it is not as simple as Billups 3-9 in game-winning shots, Dirk 3-8 in game winning shots, Dirk > Billups at game-winning shots

And what is up with the he can do, but doesn't do? Kobe does score. Even statistically he is one of the best of all-time.

It is not a fact to say that FG % = better scorer. That is how you use statistics. They are not facts when interpreted that way.

[PJR]

Where is the twist? DMAVS claims that the first thing that Phil would do is look at stats in order to determine the better scorer.

The truth is that all Phil Jackson said is that MJ's fg% makes him more accurate. Dwight Howard has a higher FG% than Kobe, is he a better scorer?

edit: Phil Jackson has never said, when asked about who the better scorer is, "Hold on... let me see the stats. Ok, MJ wins in FG%. He is the better scorer."

In addition to a spin job, let's add a cherry on top in your refusal to utilize proper context. You bringing up Dwight Howard, a center, is not applicable to the discussion. We're comparing wing/perimeter scorers here.

Bottom line is, Phil DID cite Jordan's superior field goal percentage as proof that he was the more the deadlier and accurate scorer. There's nothing to spin here.





“One of the biggest differences between the two stars from my perspective was Michael’s superior skills as a leader,” Jackson said. “Though at times he could be hard on his teammates, Michael was masterful at controlling the emotional climate of the team with the power of his presence. Kobe had a long way to go before he could make that claim. He talked a good game, but he’d yet to experience the cold truth of leadership in his bones, as Michael had.”

Jackson noted the “pronounced” difference in their accuracy, Jordan shooting almost 50% — an “extraordinary figure” — while Bryant had been at 45%.

[DMAVS41]

Gotta go. Real quick, you don't have to agree with me. I don't really care. Second, your problem is not that you use "facts", but that you are abusing statistics and interpreting them for more than what they really say, and you fail to understand what statistics are really telling you and how easily manipulated they are

Also, what the GMs know, and that you don't, is that game-winning statistics are not as useful as you think that they are. They, unlike you, understand that there are so many factors involved, such as luck, that it is not as simple as Billups 3-9 in game-winning shots, Dirk 3-8 in game winning shots, Dirk > Billups at game-winning shots

And what is up with the he can do, but doesn't do? Kobe does score. Even statistically he is one of the best of all-time.

It is not a fact to say that FG % = better scorer. That is how you use statistics. They are not facts when interpreted that way.

But nobody is saying that is the only factor. There are many factors. But at some point, the claim that Billups is the 2nd best game winning shot maker falls flat when he actually performs near the bottom and well below the league average.

And it's not nearly as complicated as you think.

You don't want Dwight Howard taking a free throw to tie a game with 5 seconds left. Why? Because he's not a good ft shooter.

Just like you wouldn't want Billups taking a shot over Carmelo to win or tie a game because he's not nearly as good as Carmelo at it.

You can't just ignore what actually happens. And that seems to be the missing link...and I'm growing tired of pointing it out.

[7_cody]

In addition to a spin job, let's add a cherry on top in your refusal to utilize proper context. You bringing up Dwight Howard, a center, is not applicable to the discussion. We're comparing wing/perimeter scorers here.

Bottom line is, Phil DID cite Jordan's superior field goal percentage as proof that he was the more the deadlier and accurate scorer. There's nothing to spin here.

I see that I am wasting my time with you and DMAVS if you think that quote is equivalent to Phil Jackson saying that MJ is a better scorer than Kobe. Phil probably would say that, but he did not say so in that exact quote that you provided. The only thing that Phil said is that he is more accurate. He didn't say that he was a deadlier scorer. He didn't even use the word scorer. Why do you think that you can interpret things however you want? If being more accurate is all that you need to be a better scorer, then yes, Phil Jackson did say that MJ is a better scorer. But, what you fail to realize, is that being 5% more accurate does not mean that you are a deadlier scorer.

So whose playing the spin game? You, the guy that claim Phil is saying that MJ is a better scorer because he is more accurate?

Proper context? There are many guards that shoot a higher % FG than Kobe and are not nearly as good of a scorer that he is. I wasn't "going out of context", I used an extreme example to prove a point. Without looking it up, Reddick probably shoots a higher percentage than Kobe, is he a better scorer? Didn't think so

Oh, I forgot, Phil Jackson said that a higher FG% means more accurate, so I'll spin this like you guys do - Reddick FG% > Kobe FG% (probably, didn't look it up), so Phil Jackson also says that Reddick is a better scorer than Kobe Bryant. Without your spin job, Phil Jackson is just saying that Reddick is more accurate, which would be true, his wide open shots created by his teammates are more accurate. Wait, I forget, according to Phil Jackson the best scorers can be find by getting a list of the most accurate shooters, which is their FG%

You guys should be paying me for teaching you this shit

[DMAVS41]

I see that I am wasting my time with you and DMAVS if you think that quote is equivalent to Phil Jackson saying that MJ is a better scorer than Kobe. Phil probably would say that, but he did not say so in that exact quote that you provided. The only thing that Phil said is that he is more accurate. He didn't say that he was a deadlier scorer. He didn't even use the word scorer. Why do you think that you can interpret things however you want? If being more accurate is all that you need to be a better scorer, then yes, Phil Jackson did say that MJ is a better scorer. But, what you fail to realize, is that being 5% more accurate does not mean that you are a deadlier scorer.

So whose playing the spin game? You, the guy that claim Phil is saying that MJ is a better scorer because he is more accurate?

Proper context? There are many guards that shoot a higher % FG than Kobe and are not nearly as good of a scorer that he is. I wasn't "going out of context", I used an extreme example to prove a point. Without looking it up, Reddick probably shoots a higher percentage than Kobe, is he a better scorer? Didn't think so

Oh, I forgot, Phil Jackson said that a higher FG% means more accurate, so I'll spin this like you guys do - Reddick FG% > Kobe FG% (probably, didn't look it up), so Phil Jackson also says that Reddick is a better scorer than Kobe Bryant. Without your spin job, Phil Jackson is just saying that Reddick is more accurate, which would be true, his wide open shots created by his teammates are more accurate. Wait, I forget, according to Phil Jackson the best scorers can be find by getting a list of the most accurate shooters, which is their FG%

You guys should be paying me for teaching you this shit

You are just playing dumb now.

Nobody ever said fg% should be used alone. It's all about context...and it's not ****ing hard at all.

You wouldn't compare Reddick with Kobe for all the reasons we all know. But MJ and Kobe? FG% or overall efficiency is very important.

Who is the better ft shooter? Ray Allen or Dwight Howard?

Paying you? WTF are you on now? You seem really ignorant and naive....

[7_cody]

But nobody is saying that is the only factor. There are many factors. But at some point, the claim that Billups is the 2nd best game winning shot maker falls flat when he actually performs near the bottom and well below the league average.

And it's not nearly as complicated as you think.

You don't want Dwight Howard taking a free throw to tie a game with 5 seconds left. Why? Because he's not a good ft shooter.

Just like you wouldn't want Billups taking a shot over Carmelo to win or tie a game because he's not nearly as good as Carmelo at it.

You can't just ignore what actually happens. And that seems to be the missing link...and I'm growing tired of pointing it out.

Okay, so Dwight Howards free-throw statistics are reliable for your current example. They can be interpreted how you just did.

Unfortunately, statistics are not a good enough measure for clutchness. There are too many factors. You can't simply interpret those stats to say X > Y because > FGM

I am not ignoring what actually happens, I am understanding how much statistics really do tell you v what they don't tell you and I also understand their capabilities and how to properly interpret them. Statistics are the best measurement that we have, but they are very misleading, and it gets even worse when you compare a free-throw statistic over 82 games v "shots made in the clutch v shots misssed in clutch statistics". They cannot be interpreted the same, in fact, in that situation it better to watch for yourself and understand the dynamics involved yourself and to see for yourself what kind of shot-making ability that player has.

[7_cody]

You are just playing dumb now.

Nobody ever said fg% should be used alone. It's all about context...and it's not ****ing hard at all.

You wouldn't compare Reddick with Kobe for all the reasons we all know. But MJ and Kobe? FG% or overall efficiency is very important.

Who is the better ft shooter? Ray Allen or Dwight Howard?

Paying you? WTF are you on now? You seem really ignorant and naive....

Okay, but if Phil Jackson was quoted as saying that Reddick is more accurate than Kobe because of his FG%, than you and PJR would both be claiming that Phil Jackson claims that Reddick is a better scorer than Kobe

That is a great spin job, actually. Thanks for borrowing me the term PJR

[DMAVS41]

Okay, so Dwight Howards free-throw statistics are reliable for your current example. They can be interpreted how you just did.

Unfortunately, statistics are not a good enough measure for clutchness. There are too many factors. You can't simply interpret those stats to say X > Y because > FGM

I am not ignoring what actually happens, I am understanding how much statistics really do tell you v what they don't tell you and I also understand their capabilities and how to properly interpret them. Statistics are the best measurement that we have, but they are very misleading, and it gets even worse when you compare a free-throw statistic over 82 games v "shots made in the clutch v shots misssed in clutch statistics". They cannot be interpreted the same, in fact, in that situation it better to watch for yourself and understand the dynamics involved yourself and to see for yourself what kind of shot-making ability that player has.


It's not that complicated. Of course they aren't the exact same thing, but they both measure makes and misses.

Trust me...no GM is still taking Billups when he looks at the numbers from Carmelo. Nobody is. This is exactly why "opinions" are terrible evidence. You would think GM's would know more, but in this case they simply don't...they are ignorant.

You have to judge players on what they actually do. Until you realize that...this is pointless.

Not sure why this is so hard for Kobe fans. You'd readily admit that you'd rather have Dirk taking free throws over Kobe as he's a much better ft shooter. But why? If you can't look at stats...how would you know? How would you settle any argument?

It's the same thing more or less with other things. Again...is it identical? No, but makes and misses matter. And ignoring that because you want to pretend that Kobe has it so much more difficult than every other player is silly.

[Rysio]

adrian dantley officially the greatest scorer in nba history :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

7cody, much as I want to agree with you (killed it in that Dirk thread dude), you're just being stubborn now.

When comparing similar players like Kobe and Jordan, two of the most skilled scorers ever, accuracy matters. ALOT.

Here's PJax verbatim (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_WNTx3gG_s#t=2m04s): "When you look at it, Michael shot a higher percentage. Michael shot 49-50%. Kobe hasn't been able to do that, so there's a big difference when you compare those two; the shooting percentages were quite a bit different."

[DMAVS41]

Okay, but if Phil Jackson was quoted as saying that Reddick is more accurate than Kobe because of his FG%, than you and PJR would both be claiming that Phil Jackson claims that Reddick is a better scorer than Kobe

That is a great spin job, actually. Thanks for borrowing me the term PJR

No I wouldn't. Because I'm intelligent enough to put context around them. And solely using one thing to determine who the better scorer is...is silly.

I'd have to look at volume and ppg before even looking at efficiency. And if I see one guy scoring 28 ppg and one guy scoring 15 ppg....I'd immediately conclude that you can't compare them.

But two guys scoring 28 or so ppg on similar volume? Then I'd go to the next step of efficiency.

You really so dense that you can't figure this shit out?

[7_cody]

7cody, much as I want to agree with you (killed it in that Dirk thread dude), you're just being stubborn now.

When comparing similar players like Kobe and Jordan, two of the most skilled scorers ever, accuracy matters. ALOT.

Here's PJax verbatim (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_WNTx3gG_s#t=2m04s): "When you look at it, Michael shot a higher percentage. Michael shot 49-50%. Kobe hasn't been able to do that, so there's a big difference when you compare those two; the shooting percentages were quite a bit different."

I actually agree that accuracy is important, especially when comparing MJ > Kobe. I am not even saying that MJ < Kobe in scoring.

What is ironic is that DMAVS is telling me that FG% does not equal better scorer when used alone, but when Phil Jackson says FG% = more accurate, then Phil Jackson's quote is conveniently interpreted as FG% = more accurate = better scorer. So which one is it? FG% = scorer, or FG% does not equal scorer? How can you accuse me of saying FG% = better scorer, when you use Phil Jackson's quote to say the exact same thing??

[7_cody]

No I wouldn't. Because I'm intelligent enough to put context around them. And solely using one thing to determine who the better scorer is...is silly.

I'd have to look at volume and ppg before even looking at efficiency. And if I see one guy scoring 28 ppg and one guy scoring 15 ppg....I'd immediately conclude that you can't compare them.

But two guys scoring 28 or so ppg on similar volume? Then I'd go to the next step of efficiency.

You really so dense that you can't figure this shit out?

You wouldn't, but you just did with Phil Jacksons accuracy and FG% quote that says nothing about scoring

I do know what you are saying. Kobe and MJ average similar PPG, so now all you need is FG% to determine the better scorer. I disagree. It still just means that MJ is more accurate. You did that with LeBron as well, similar PPG, so FG% determines the better scorer. Not true at all.

[DMAVS41]

You wouldn't, but you just did with Phil Jacksons accuracy and FG% quote that says nothing about scoring

I do know what you are saying. Kobe and MJ average similar PPG, so now all you need is FG% to determine the better scorer. I disagree. It still just means that MJ is more accurate. You did that with LeBron as well, similar PPG, so FG% determines the better scorer. Not true at all.

Let me try to be clear. FG% does not make one player a better scorer alone.

Yes, two players on similar volume and ppg....looking at efficiency will almost always determine who the better scorer is for me at the elite level.

Because once you are averaging 26 plus ppg...you are elite enough to not have to worry about silly things like ability to get off shots or create on your own...etc.

The reason I don't go on and on about opinion stuff is because it shouldn't matter all that much. Once you take a side...I know your opinion. Like the Kobe vs Dirk playoff scoring thing. I don't need to tell you my opinion why or hear your opinion why...it's obvious. By taking the pro Kobe side...you clearly don't value efficiency as much as you do streak scoring or the ability to get off any shot...etc.

When I take the pro Dirk side...it's clear that I value higher fg%, 3pt%, and ft%...by a wide margin mind you...over the above.

When you are comparing like vs like...yes...overall efficiency is going to play a large role in things. You just don't want to hear that because Kobe's efficiency isn't as good as the likes of a Dirk or Lebron...so you have to come up with BS reasons why it isn't important.

It's really not that hard. Unless there is a clear advantage to one player as a scorer...I'm going with 26 ppg on 58.4% TS over 26 ppg on 54.1% TS...

You can talk all you want about what Kobe can do and how he plays for being an entertainer (God only knows the relevance of that BS to you)...and I'll sit here and listen and have a good laugh, but I'll remind you of what he's actually done.

I think that is the problem with how many of the pro Kobe people argue. They debate about what "could" or "might" happen...not what did happen.

You probably would rather Kobe take a game winning shot in the playoffs over Dirk or Lebron..etc. And you could give all your reasons for it...and I'd agree with a lot of them probably...but for some reason...those reasons haven't translated to reality. So I go with reality;

If I see that Billups is actually terrible at game winning shots...I think it's dumb to say he's the 2nd best. Makes no sense...nothing supports it. It's confirmation bias and ignorance at it's finest....

You have to actually produce results...you can't just rest on "skillset" if it doesn't do anything...

[havoc33]

LOL. The amount of time and energy you guys put into such fruitless discussions. LMFAO. Gotta love discussions here on ISH; it's all about reading box scores and stats from basketball reference, using it as "proof" to support whatever biased POV that is the topic of the day. Like Dmavs trying to convince the world that Dirk is a better scorer than Kobe.

[Soundwave]

More efficient scorer? Sure.

Better scorer? No.

[iDunk]

All LeBron does is bully his way to the basket for an easy layup. :rolleyes:

[Dro]

All LeBron does is bully his way to the basket for an easy layup. :rolleyes:
Would you rather him brick jump shots over 2 defenders like Kobe?

[7_cody]

Let me try to be clear. FG% does not make one player a better scorer alone.

Yes, two players on similar volume and ppg....looking at efficiency will almost always determine who the better scorer is for me at the elite level.

Because once you are averaging 26 plus ppg...you are elite enough to not have to worry about silly things like ability to get off shots or create on your own...etc.

The reason I don't go on and on about opinion stuff is because it shouldn't matter all that much. Once you take a side...I know your opinion. Like the Kobe vs Dirk playoff scoring thing. I don't need to tell you my opinion why or hear your opinion why...it's obvious. By taking the pro Kobe side...you clearly don't value efficiency as much as you do streak scoring or the ability to get off any shot...etc.

When I take the pro Dirk side...it's clear that I value higher fg%, 3pt%, and ft%...by a wide margin mind you...over the above.

When you are comparing like vs like...yes...overall efficiency is going to play a large role in things. You just don't want to hear that because Kobe's efficiency isn't as good as the likes of a Dirk or Lebron...so you have to come up with BS reasons why it isn't important.

It's really not that hard. Unless there is a clear advantage to one player as a scorer...I'm going with 26 ppg on 58.4% TS over 26 ppg on 54.1% TS...

You can talk all you want about what Kobe can do and how he plays for being an entertainer (God only knows the relevance of that BS to you)...and I'll sit here and listen and have a good laugh, but I'll remind you of what he's actually done.

I think that is the problem with how many of the pro Kobe people argue. They debate about what "could" or "might" happen...not what did happen.

You probably would rather Kobe take a game winning shot in the playoffs over Dirk or Lebron..etc. And you could give all your reasons for it...and I'd agree with a lot of them probably...but for some reason...those reasons haven't translated to reality. So I go with reality;

If I see that Billups is actually terrible at game winning shots...I think it's dumb to say he's the 2nd best. Makes no sense...nothing supports it. It's confirmation bias and ignorance at it's finest....

You have to actually produce results...you can't just rest on "skillset" if it doesn't do anything...

Man, I just cannot agree with you. Your definition of scorer is somehow all related to statistics. To me, scoring goes beyond statistics. How that player scores. How many ways he can score. How unstoppable he is. How the defense reacts to said offensive player. How the defense guards said player.

Again, we are talking about someone that scores regardless of what offense he is in, regardless of who is featured in that offense, and regardless of what kind of defense is thrown against him. Kobe demands full team defense to slow him down. Neither Dirk nor LeBron can say the same

Agree to disagree. Our discussion is going nowhere. :cheers: :cheers:

[Is He Ill]

LOL. The amount of time and energy you guys put into such fruitless discussions. LMFAO. Gotta love discussions here on ISH; it's all about reading box scores and stats from basketball reference, using it as "proof" to support whatever biased POV that is the topic of the day. Like Dmavs trying to convince the world that Dirk is a better scorer than Kobe.

:oldlol: I know, it's so pathetic.

[DMAVS41]

Man, I just cannot agree with you. Your definition of scorer is somehow all related to statistics. To me, scoring goes beyond statistics. How that player scores. How many ways he can score. How unstoppable he is. How the defense reacts to said offensive player. How the defense guards said player.

Again, we are talking about someone that scores regardless of what offense he is in, regardless of who is featured in that offense, and regardless of what kind of defense is thrown against him. Kobe demands full team defense to slow him down. Neither Dirk nor LeBron can say the same

Agree to disagree. Our discussion is going nowhere. :cheers: :cheers:

If there is no impact to what you claim above...what good is it?

You are missing the most key thing. Any and all of the skill set advantages Kobe has over other players is being lost by his willingness to settle for bad shots more often.

Something is happening. Either Kobe can't do the things you claim above...or he's making bad decisions as a scorer at a high enough rate to negate the advantages you talk about.

It's simple logic.

If one player is more talented and has a better skill set to score...yet he scores roughly the same number of points on worse overall efficiency...something is happening.

And when you have sample sizes this big...spanning decades on different teams with different players with different coaches against different competition....you can't just ignore it.

It's simply not that complicated.

[pauk]

If there is no impact to what you claim above...what good is it?

You are missing the most key thing. Any and all of the skill set advantages Kobe has over other players is being lost by his willingness to settle for bad shots more often.

Something is happening. Either Kobe can't do the things you claim above...or he's making bad decisions as a scorer at a high enough rate to negate the advantages you talk about.

It's simple logic.

If one player is more talented and has a better skill set to score...yet he scores roughly the same number of points on worse overall efficiency...something is happening.

And when you have sample sizes this big...spanning decades on different teams with different players with different coaches against different competition....you can't just ignore it.

It's simply not that complicated.

Agree.

[air mamba]

I hate stupid discussions like this about "efficiency" cause most of you just post random stats and think you know what your talking about...

[Soundwave]

If there is no impact to what you claim above...what good is it?

You are missing the most key thing. Any and all of the skill set advantages Kobe has over other players is being lost by his willingness to settle for bad shots more often.

Something is happening. Either Kobe can't do the things you claim above...or he's making bad decisions as a scorer at a high enough rate to negate the advantages you talk about.

It's simple logic.

If one player is more talented and has a better skill set to score...yet he scores roughly the same number of points on worse overall efficiency...something is happening.

And when you have sample sizes this big...spanning decades on different teams with different players with different coaches against different competition....you can't just ignore it.

It's simply not that complicated.

Fair enough.

[G-Funk]

we already saw how good Lebron is as a scorer in da finals.:lol

[G-Funk]

If there is no impact to what you claim above...what good is it?

You are missing the most key thing. Any and all of the skill set advantages Kobe has over other players is being lost by his willingness to settle for bad shots more often.

Something is happening. Either Kobe can't do the things you claim above...or he's making bad decisions as a scorer at a high enough rate to negate the advantages you talk about.

It's simple logic.

If one player is more talented and has a better skill set to score...yet he scores roughly the same number of points on worse overall efficiency...something is happening.

And when you have sample sizes this big...spanning decades on different teams with different players with different coaches against different competition....you can't just ignore it.

It's simply not that complicated.
:oldlol: :oldlol:
dafuq u talking about? Kobe's bad shot selection has to do more with time clock than dumb shot selections. It's OBVIOUS u don't watch any Lakers games. If the team can't create a shot by the 6 second or so the ball finds its way to Kobe's hands, why? because he's the only skilled player who can create the best shot out of the whole team.

[funnystuff]

:oldlol: :oldlol:
dafuq u talking about? Kobe's bad shot selection has to do more with time clock than dumb shot selections. It's OBVIOUS u don't watch any Lakers games. If the team can't create a shot by the 6 second or so the ball finds its way to Kobe's hands, why? because he's the only skilled player who can create the best shot out of the whole team.
:roll: :roll:

Denial at its finest.

[7_cody]

:oldlol: :oldlol:
dafuq u talking about? Kobe's bad shot selection has to do more with time clock than dumb shot selections. It's OBVIOUS u don't watch any Lakers games. If the team can't create a shot by the 6 second or so the ball finds its way to Kobe's hands, why? because he's the only skilled player who can create the best shot out of the whole team.

While this sounds like an excuse, there is some truth to it. I wouldn't be surprised if he averages at least a few more of these kinds of shots than most superstars per game, more than enough to make a difference in fg%

[Hoopz2332]

we already saw how good Lebron is as a scorer in da finals.:lol


we see how putrid kobe's FG% is the finals:oldlol:


lebron

lebron


2007 NBA Final: – 35.6% FG,

2011 NBA Final: 47.8% FG,

2012 NBA Final: 47.2% FG,

2013 NBA Final: 44.7% FG,


vs


Kobe


2000 NBA Finals – 36.7% FG

2001 NBA Finals – 41.5% FG

2002 NBA Finals – 51.4% FG

2004 NBA Finals – 38.1% FG

2008 NBA Finals – 40.5% FG

2009 NBA Finals – 43.0% FG

2010 NBA Finals – 40.5% FG,




lebron - 44 Fg% FInals career

KObe - 41 FG% finals career


6 of Kobe's 7 Finals he's shot under 45 FG%...lebron has shot under 45 FG% in only 1 of his 4 finals:biggums:

[TheMarkMadsen]

[QUOTE=Hoopz2332]we see how putrid kobe's FG% is the finals:oldlol:


lebron

lebron


2007 NBA Final:

[ILLsmak]

If there is no impact to what you claim above...what good is it?

You are missing the most key thing. Any and all of the skill set advantages Kobe has over other players is being lost by his willingness to settle for bad shots more often.

Something is happening. Either Kobe can't do the things you claim above...or he's making bad decisions as a scorer at a high enough rate to negate the advantages you talk about.

It's simple logic.

If one player is more talented and has a better skill set to score...yet he scores roughly the same number of points on worse overall efficiency...something is happening.

And when you have sample sizes this big...spanning decades on different teams with different players with different coaches against different competition....you can't just ignore it.

It's simply not that complicated.

that's only assuming that they are in the exact same scenario, that every shot they take is the same.

With Kobe, we can say he takes bad shots because we know that he's bull-headed at times, but regarding other player-to-player comparisons? Not always.

Few people shot, as a wing, as high of a percentage as Bron did last year. His percentage is off the charts ridiculous. Sure, he "only" put up 27 ppg, but would you say that he's one of the best 27 ppg scorers in NBA history?

If someone passes up a shot they can't make at a high percentage, that does wonders for their FG%. But it really doesn't affect how well they score on shots they can make.

It's more than "simple logic" when you try to compare two things based on only two or three things (amount of success, efficiency of success, and maybe, some assumed idea of similar situations due to the other two.)

If you look at the arc of LeBron's scoring and his percentage, you see that he's taking less shots and scoring less. His shot attempts are down, his FTA are down, but his assists are really not up. So if you want to bust out the stat assumption, you can say when he passes up a shot, it's not like he's giving it to someone in a position to score.

We know LeBron can score very well. Is he scoring at GOAT level? I dunno about all that. Comparing him to Kobe now, no doubt he can outscore him, but comparing him to 35 ppg 50 point streak Kobe? I don't think he is a better scorer than that.

-Smak

[Hoopz2332]

Comparing him to Kobe now, no doubt he can outscore him, but comparing him to 35 ppg 50 point streak Kobe? I don't think he is a better scorer than that.

-Smak

The same year Kobe avg 35, lebron avg a shade under 32 but on 4 less shots!

[HurricaneKid]

:oldlol: :oldlol:
dafuq u talking about? Kobe's bad shot selection has to do more with time clock than dumb shot selections. It's OBVIOUS u don't watch any Lakers games. If the team can't create a shot by the 6 second or so the ball finds its way to Kobe's hands, why? because he's the only skilled player who can create the best shot out of the whole team.

Absurdities like this get brought up repeatedly. There was a stat out there for shots in the final 5 seconds of the shot clock and LeBron had a substantially higher % of his shots under those conditions too.

This is the frustration many of us have. Kobestans attempt to use adjectives to dispute facts. They attempt to use generalities rather than specifics. And even when they bring up quantifiable occurances they ignore the data (last second shots, late shot clock, make rates of mid and long range shots).

[DuMa]

:oldlol: :oldlol:
dafuq u talking about? Kobe's bad shot selection has to do more with time clock than dumb shot selections. It's OBVIOUS u don't watch any Lakers games. If the team can't create a shot by the 6 second or so the ball finds its way to Kobe's hands, why? because he's the only skilled player who can create the best shot out of the whole team.

if he is so skilled, why isnt he making shots easier for his teammates for the first 18 seconds? you blame the rest of the team for not being able to get a decent shot up but not kobe, no not kobe. because hes not a part of the team anyway.

[Hoopz2332]

Absurdities like this get brought up repeatedly. There was a stat out there for shots in the final 5 seconds of the shot clock and LeBron had a substantially higher % of his shots under those conditions too.

This is the frustration many of us have. Kobestans attempt to use adjectives to dispute facts. They attempt to use generalities rather than specifics. And even when they bring up quantifiable occurances they ignore the data (last second shots, late shot clock, make rates of mid and long range shots).


:applause:

[Trollsmasher]

Absurdities like this get brought up repeatedly. There was a stat out there for shots in the final 5 seconds of the shot clock and LeBron had a substantially higher % of his shots under those conditions too.

This is the frustration many of us have. Kobestans attempt to use adjectives to dispute facts. They attempt to use generalities rather than specifics. And even when they bring up quantifiable occurances they ignore the data (last second shots, late shot clock, make rates of mid and long range shots).
oh snap, another Kobetard myth busted:lol :applause:

[air mamba]

You can be a horrible scorer and shoot a high Fg% & you can be a great scorer and shoot a low fg%.

A problem with fg% is it has very little to do with your actual scoring ability and more to do with other surrounding factors like spacing, distance away from the basket, defensive attention, the way the player is being defended, offensive system, other abilities of player and his teammates, volume of shots, what types of shots, scoring style, shot selection, when to pick your spots, mannerisms, awareness of stats, addictive scoring etc.

lebron shot 41% from 3 point land last season but everyone knows he's no where near stephen curry. So why is his percentage so high?
think about it.

kobe has never shot above 47% for his career but could easily hit 48 or higer in a season, so whats holding him back? think about it

dwight howard shoots a higher percentage than dirk, you wanna know why?
totally different playing styles and skill-sets, one just promotes better efficiency but isn't necessarily better

Another problem with stats is they dont count for degree of difficulty, substance, shot creation, versatility, they dont count for whats inbetween, just shows the end result.

If kobe pulls off a beautiful artistry of footwork and space creating ability, and just misses the jumpshot, it drops his fg% but he doesnt get credit for the way he created the space around multiple defenders to get that shot off. think about it

If Player X is the complete package on offense, can drive, hit the 3, mid range game, post moves, versatility of scoring, 40 inch vertical, takes 20 shots, scores 30points, shoots 48% fg, while player Y cant do anything else except shoot 25 foot granny shots taking 20 shots a game while shooting 60% fg % but who is the better scorer?

In conclusion, kobe is a better scorer but lebron scores better.

[j3lademaster]

If Player X is the complete package on offense, can drive, hit the 3, mid range game, post moves, versatility of scoring, 40 inch vertical, takes 20 shots, scores 30points, shoots 48% fg, while player Y cant do anything else except shoot 25 foot granny shots taking 20 shots a game while shooting 60% fg % but who is the better scorer?Shooting 60% on 20 shots per game on its own will put that up there in goat scoring seasons. Now doing it purely off granny shots? GOAT!

[DMAVS41]

oh snap, another Kobetard myth busted:lol :applause:

Check the main page for a thread about it.

Lebron took a higher percentage of his shots late in the shot clock in 4 out of the last 5 years.

Dirk took a higher percentage of late shots in each of the last 5 years.

But yea...lets go off the Kblaze eye-test that tells him Kobe has to take more shots late than any other player.

ROFL..."stats"

[Hoopz2332]

lebron shot 41% from 3 point land last season but everyone knows he's no where near stephen curry. So why is his percentage so high?
think about it.

lebron is actually an elite spot up 3pt shooter


kobe has never shot above 47% for his career but could easily hit 48 or higer in a season, so whats holding him back? think about it

Kobe played with prime Shaq and still couldn't do it while seeing single coverage


dwight howard shoots a higher percentage than dirk, you wanna know why?
totally different playing styles and skill-sets, one just promotes better efficiency but isn't necessarily better

Can't compare Dirk to dwight for obvious reason but Kobe and lebron can be compared. Both are perimeter/wing players. Most of Lebron shot attempts are outside shots.


Another problem with stats is they dont count for degree of difficulty, substance, shot creation, versatility, they dont count for whats inbetween, just shows the end result.

you don't get style points for difficulty


If kobe pulls off a beautiful artistry of footwork and space creating ability, and just misses the jumpshot, it drops his fg% but he doesnt get credit for the way he created the space around multiple defenders to get that shot off. think about it

See above post

[7_cody]

You can be a horrible scorer and shoot a high Fg% & you can be a great scorer and shoot a low fg%.

A problem with fg% is it has very little to do with your actual scoring ability and more to do with other surrounding factors like spacing, distance away from the basket, defensive attention, the way the player is being defended, offensive system, other abilities of player and his teammates, volume of shots, what types of shots, scoring style, shot selection, when to pick your spots, mannerisms, awareness of stats, addictive scoring etc.

lebron shot 41% from 3 point land last season but everyone knows he's no where near stephen curry. So why is his percentage so high?
think about it.

kobe has never shot above 47% for his career but could easily hit 48 or higer in a season, so whats holding him back? think about it

dwight howard shoots a higher percentage than dirk, you wanna know why?
totally different playing styles and skill-sets, one just promotes better efficiency but isn't necessarily better

Another problem with stats is they dont count for degree of difficulty, substance, shot creation, versatility, they dont count for whats inbetween, just shows the end result.

If kobe pulls off a beautiful artistry of footwork and space creating ability, and just misses the jumpshot, it drops his fg% but he doesnt get credit for the way he created the space around multiple defenders to get that shot off. think about it

If Player X is the complete package on offense, can drive, hit the 3, mid range game, post moves, versatility of scoring, 40 inch vertical, takes 20 shots, scores 30points, shoots 48% fg, while player Y cant do anything else except shoot 25 foot granny shots taking 20 shots a game while shooting 60% fg % but who is the better scorer?

In conclusion, kobe is a better scorer but lebron scores better.

The bolded is what most people don't seem to understand, IMO

[7_cody]

Let me ask you guys a question

If LeBron shooting a higher % makes him a better scorer, then let me ask you this hypothetical question

What if LeBron was not featured on the offense. What if he had Pau Gasol and Dwight Howard playing down low, and he was not allowed to handle the ball. He was not the primary play maker.

Now, we are not using him to his strengths. Can he still lead the league in scoring and efficiency?

So, are his statistics a product of him being a complete scorer, a superior scorer to his peers, or a product of him playing in a system where he excels? And don't put words in my mouth - please - I am not saying LeBron has no scoring ability. I am saying that LeBron is a scorer, no doubt, BUT are his statistics MORE of a product of his scoring ability or MORE of a product of millions of other factors such as offensive system, proper spacing, great shot selection, etc etc etc etc

To me, a great scorer would still be able to score. You can put Kobe in LeBrons position, granted his playmaking is elite when he tries, but not on LeBrons level. Kobe will probably average more turnovers. But, isn't he still going to score? He can score by catching and shooting. He can score by driving and attacking. He can score off-ball. He can score as the ballhandler. It doesn't matter, he is a scorer.

[DMAVS41]

Let me ask you guys a question

If LeBron shooting a higher % makes him a better scorer, then let me ask you this hypothetical question

What if LeBron was not featured on the offense. What if he had Pau Gasol and Dwight Howard playing down low, and he was not allowed to handle the ball. He was not the primary play maker.

Now, we are not using him to his strengths. Can he still lead the league in scoring and efficiency?

So, are his statistics a product of him being a complete scorer, a superior scorer to his peers, or a product of him playing in a system where he excels? And don't put words in my mouth - please - I am not saying LeBron has no scoring ability. I am saying that LeBron is a scorer, no doubt, BUT are his statistics MORE of a product of his scoring ability or MORE of a product of millions of other factors such as offensive system, proper spacing, great shot selection, etc etc etc etc

To me, a great scorer would still be able to score. You can put Kobe in LeBrons position, granted his playmaking is elite when he tries, but not on LeBrons level. Kobe will probably average more turnovers. But, isn't he still going to score? He can score by catching and shooting. He can score by driving and attacking. He can score off-ball. He can score as the ballhandler. It doesn't matter, he is a scorer.

Well...he averaged 27 ppg in 2011 on the Heat while it clearly not being just his team. He had to share the rock with Wade at almost a your turn my turn type thing that say Wade score 26ppg...and also Bosh at 19 ppg.

Not only that, but Wade next to Lebron doesn't fit his skillset at all. They both play a very similar style.

And Lebron did this on limited fg attempts.


Lebron's been able to score...you really under-rate his ability to score.

And the argument that Kobe takes more shots late in the shot clock just got blown out of the ****ing water. Lebron takes more late bailout shots than Kobe...LOL


Honestly, I feel bad about destroying you people in these arguments when there is actually some solid points to be made for your side actually based on evidence.

Like...why has nobody brought up Kobe's great crunch time scoring in the playoffs. I don't have the exact numbers, but I remember seeing them posted...and they were amazing. His game winning shot stuff is bad, but his clutch play (5 minutes in tight games) in the playoffs was great...way better than Dirk's for example.

Talk about stuff like that. Don't try to pretend Lebron is a system specific scorer. It's all about shots anyway. Give Lebron his 18 shots and he's going to score. No different than Kobe. They just do it in different ways.

[7_cody]

Well...he averaged 27 ppg in 2011 on the Heat while it clearly not being just his team. He had to share the rock with Wade at almost a your turn my turn type thing that say Wade score 26ppg...and also Bosh at 19 ppg.

Not only that, but Wade next to Lebron doesn't fit his skillset at all. They both play a very similar style.

And Lebron did this on limited fg attempts.


Lebron's been able to score...you really under-rate his ability to score.

And the argument that Kobe takes more shots late in the shot clock just got blown out of the ****ing water. Lebron takes more late bailout shots than Kobe...LOL


Honestly, I feel bad about destroying you people in these arguments when there is actually some solid points to be made for your side actually based on evidence.

Like...why has nobody brought up Kobe's great crunch time scoring in the playoffs. I don't have the exact numbers, but I remember seeing them posted...and they were amazing. His game winning shot stuff is bad, but his clutch play (5 minutes in tight games) in the playoffs was great...way better than Dirk's for example.

Talk about stuff like that. Don't try to pretend Lebron is a system specific scorer. It's all about shots anyway. Give Lebron his 18 shots and he's going to score. No different than Kobe. They just do it in different ways.

Not saying that what you said here is false, but you didn't really address any of my points

I even asked a specific question which wasn't answered

And you seem to be debating just to win, and you try so hard. Honestly, in the beginning you were getting crush, but lately you have starting to gain some ground, and you have proven people wrong a few times

I have gotten the best of you quite a few times, as you have done to me. I have seen others get the best of you several times as well, kblaze, yao ming's foot got the best of you nonstop in a few older discussions, and a few others

So are you going to answer my original question? Could LeBron do it?

[j3lademaster]

Let me ask you guys a question

If LeBron shooting a higher % makes him a better scorer, then let me ask you this hypothetical question

What if LeBron was not featured on the offense. What if he had Pau Gasol and Dwight Howard playing down low, and he was not allowed to handle the ball. He was not the primary play maker.That's not fair, Kobe was just as ball dominant as Lebron last year.

[7_cody]

That's not fair, Kobe was just as ball dominant as Lebron last year.

I know. It's a hypothetical question to prove a point

[DMAVS41]

Not saying that what you said here is false, but you didn't really address any of my points

I even asked a specific question which wasn't answered

And you seem to be debating just to win, and you try so hard. Honestly, in the beginning you were getting crush, but lately you have starting to gain some ground, and you have proven people wrong a few times

I have gotten the best of you quite a few times, as you have done to me. I have seen others get the best of you several times as well, kblaze, yao ming's foot got the best of you nonstop in a few older discussions, and a few others

So are you going to answer my original question? Could LeBron do it?

You never got the best of me in any way. And we don't give a **** about your opinion. Bring facts.

You mention Kblaze...dude just went on and on about Kobe having to take these difficult shots because of his teammates...etc. He thinks his "eye-test" trumps reality...but it doesn't. Why is it that the stats are always different than what people watch with Kobe?

I don't know what Lebron can or can't do. I know that he's been able to score at a high rate on quality efficiency for his career 10 years.

My answer though...is yes. Lebron is good enough to score in the way you posted if that is how he actually had to play. Would he score as well? Nope, but again that is no different than any other player having to do something they aren't great at.

[j3lademaster]

I know. It's a hypothetical question to prove a pointThen what's the point you're trying to prove? If Lebron's not allowed to have the ball in his hands he can't score as much? That's the same with any all-time great scorer.

[7_cody]

You never got the best of me in any way. And we don't give a **** about your opinion. Bring facts.

You mention Kblaze...dude just went on and on about Kobe having to take these difficult shots because of his teammates...etc. He thinks his "eye-test" trumps reality...but it doesn't. Why is it that the stats are always different than what people watch with Kobe?

I don't know what Lebron can or can't do. I know that he's been able to score at a high rate on quality efficiency for his career 10 years.

My answer though...is yes. Lebron is good enough to score in the way you posted if that is how he actually had to play. Would he score as well? Nope, but again that is no different than any other player having to do something they aren't great at.

Thank you for proving my point with the bolded. Actually, thank you for actually addressing my point and actually answering a specific question for once, like a good debater would actually do

And your believe that you are "dominating every debate" made me chucke IRL. You are not dominating anything, trust me, you are just more persistent than anyone else and spend more time posting than anyone else - maybe you have been made a fool so many times that you had to keep trying, and trying, and trying until you were finally right

With that said, you have actually after thousands of posts brought up a few good points and even changed my stance on a few things a bit. I was humble enough to admit that you were right about Wade's shooters, for example, but I see no humility from you

[7_cody]

Then what's the point you're trying to prove? If Lebron's not allowed to have the ball in his hands he can't score as much? That's the same with any all-time great scorer.

That FG% is more of a byproduct of shot selection and hundreds of other factors rather than just scoring ability. Saying that someone is a superior scorer because of their FG% is an abuse of statistics.

I wanted to know if LeBron can put up the same scoring statistics in an entirely different offense, for example, scoring off-ball, or catching and shooting, or perhaps even playing in an offense with less driving lanes

To me a great scorer can score no matter what the defense does, no matter what the offense is, and regardless of who the offense features

[DMAVS41]

Thank you for proving my point with the bolded. Actually, thank you for actually addressing my point and actually answering a specific question for once, like a good debater would actually do

And your believe that you are "dominating every debate" made me chucke IRL. You are not dominating anything, trust me, you are just more persistent than anyone else and spend more time posting than anyone else - maybe you have been made a fool so many times that you had to keep trying, and trying, and trying until you were finally right

With that said, you have actually after thousands of posts brought up a few good points and even changed my stance on a few things a bit. I was humble enough to admit that you were right about Wade's shooters, for example, but I see no humility from you

Because nobody has brought up anything of substance.

I actually made a few factual errors and readily admitted I was wrong. You haven't changed my stance because you have offered me nothing more than your biased opinion and you think you know basketball. But I don't think you know basketball...and that as well is just my opinion.

But at least I provide facts and evidence.

Again...someone talking about Kobe taking all these shots late in the shotclock because of his teammates (like Kblaze said)...and you think I'm getting owned because of someone's biased and incomplete opinion that is mesmerized by Kobe's great tough shot making?

It's confirmation bias at it's finest.

Why are we talking about hypotheticals? We have ample data sets and sizes to go off of. We don't need to talk about Lebron playing off ball. He's an on ball player. That would be like talking about Magic Johnson as a spot up shooter...what's the ****ing point? Or Duncan shooting 3's...you really think that is a valid argument?

So you think if I was comparing Dirk and Duncan...that a valid argument of mine would be that Dirk is better because if you made Duncan into a range shooter he'd suck. Come on now...that is horrible arguing.

[DMAVS41]

That FG% is more of a byproduct of shot selection and hundreds of other factors rather than just scoring ability. Saying that someone is a superior scorer because of their FG% is an abuse of statistics.

I wanted to know if LeBron can put up the same scoring statistics in an entirely different offense, for example, scoring off-ball, or catching and shooting, or perhaps even playing in an offense with less driving lanes

To me a great scorer can score no matter what the defense does, no matter what the offense is, and regardless of who the offense features

And why can Kobe do those things? He's hugely ball dominant as well. Kobe is not scoring at the same rate if he's playing off ball, catching and shooting...etc.. For starters, he'd get to the ft line a lot less and that alone would hurt his scoring.

Not to mention Kobe catch and shooting isn't his bread and butter either.

You keep arguing with ghosts. We all agree Kobe has a better offensive skill set. The problem for you is simply that his skillset does not translate into better scorer.

[7_cody]

Because nobody has brought up anything of substance.

I actually made a few factual errors and readily admitted I was wrong. You haven't changed my stance because you have offered me nothing more than your biased opinion and you think you know basketball. But I don't think you know basketball...and that as well is just my opinion.

But at least I provide facts and evidence.

Again...someone talking about Kobe taking all these shots late in the shotclock because of his teammates (like Kblaze said)...and you think I'm getting owned because of someone's biased and incomplete opinion that is mesmerized by Kobe's great tough shot making?

It's confirmation bias at it's finest.

Why are we talking about hypotheticals? We have ample data sets and sizes to go off of. We don't need to talk about Lebron playing off ball. He's an on ball player. That would be like talking about Magic Johnson as a spot up shooter...what's the ****ing point? Or Duncan shooting 3's...you really think that is a valid argument?

So you think if I was comparing Dirk and Duncan...that a valid argument of mine would be that Dirk is better because if you made Duncan into a range shooter he'd suck. Come on now...that is horrible arguing.

What? If you were arguing over who the more complete scorer is, Dirk or Duncan, then one would argue that Dirk's long range scoring ability would in that specific sense boost his scoring ability in that specific sense over Duncans

It would be a valid argument. The thread title is, "LeBron is a better scorer than Kobe", did you forget that?

I wouldn't just go, okay, who has the higher fg%? Is it Duncan? Well, he must be the better scorer. And then later argue that I am only using facts, because I used a fg% statistic which factually means that Duncan is factually a better scorer than Dirk. False, it is not a fact just because you found some statistic

I am here to kill time at work first, and then second I hope that I learn a little. That's why I only post at down time at one of my jobs. You are here just to win, and to be honest, I would love to lose some more because that would mean that I am learning.

One place I have failed is I said statistics are completely useless. Well, now I think I was right that statistics are definitely abused and easily manipulated, BUT you showed me areas where statistics are completely useful. Personally, I am glad about that, but man in so many other ways I just cannot agree with you either - it goes both ways - for example, you believe Dirk and LeBron to be better scorers than Kobe. Not many people have agreed with you there, btw, so where exactly is your "message board dominance" again??

Also, what is funny is, in the beginning you were agreeing with a lot of my "opinions", especially those regarding basketball dynamics

[7_cody]

And why can Kobe do those things? He's hugely ball dominant as well. Kobe is not scoring at the same rate if he's playing off ball, catching and shooting...etc.. For starters, he'd get to the ft line a lot less and that alone would hurt his scoring.

Not to mention Kobe catch and shooting isn't his bread and butter either.

You keep arguing with ghosts. We all agree Kobe has a better offensive skill set. The problem for you is simply that his skillset does not translate into better scorer.

His skill set DOES translate into a better scorer, it puts more pressure on the defense and makes him harder to stop - if it wasn't for him being a superior scorer, he wouldn't have dropped 62 points on Dirk in only 3 quarters, when Dirk is a better scorer than him. No one would have said, "Well, Dirk has a higher fg%, so there is no way Kobe can drop 62 points on him in only 3 quarters"

Let's just stop it right here, admit that scoring is all about statistics to you because you think statistics perfectly measure offensive production

I think that scoring goes far beyond statistics. I watch how teams react to Kobe, and I watch how they react to LeBron and see a big difference. I have also never heard any NBA professional call LeBron or Dirk better scorers than Kobe. That should speak volumes. What makes you more basketball-knowledgeable than these NBA experts? Your stat-reading skills?

Why are you not yet employed by the NBA? You seem to know something that no one in the NBA knows, which is that Dirk and LeBron are better scorers than Kobe.

[Hoopz2332]

That's not fair, Kobe was just as ball dominant as Lebron last year.

Kobe had a higher usage than Lebron

http://i.imgur.com/oc0zDb1.png

[7_cody]

Kobe had a higher usage than Lebron

http://i.imgur.com/oc0zDb1.png

Both of you missed the point

[DMAVS41]

What? If you were arguing over who the more complete scorer is, Dirk or Duncan, then one would argue that Dirk's long range scoring ability would in that specific sense boost his scoring ability in that specific sense over Duncans

It would be a valid argument. The thread title is, "LeBron is a better scorer than Kobe", did you forget that?

I wouldn't just go, okay, who has the higher fg%? Is it Duncan? Well, he must be the better scorer. And then later argue that I am only using facts, because I used a fg% statistic which factually means that Duncan is factually a better scorer than Dirk. False, it is not a fact just because you found some statistic

I am here to kill time at work first, and then second I hope that I learn a little. That's why I only post at down time at one of my jobs. You are here just to win, and to be honest, I would love to lose some more because that would mean that I am learning.

One place I have failed is I said statistics are completely useless. Well, now I think I was right that statistics are definitely abused and easily manipulated, BUT you showed me areas where statistics are completely useful. Personally, I am glad about that, but man in so many other ways I just cannot agree with you either - it goes both ways - for example, you believe Dirk and LeBron to be better scorers than Kobe. Not many people have agreed with you there, btw, so where exactly is your "message board dominance" again??

Also, what is funny is, in the beginning you were agreeing with a lot of my "opinions", especially those regarding basketball dynamics

You miss the point yet again. It doesn't matter how you score as long as you prove it's repeatable over a large enough sample size.

If we had limited data...then arguing the way you do would make sense because we wouldn't have enough information to draw conclusions.

Shaq is a better example than Duncan. Take Shaq vs Dirk...you think someone is dumb for calling Shaq a better playoff scorer prime vs prime?

If not...why? Shaq does nothing better than Dirk from these skillset arguments other than dunk and post up. Dirk has advantages over him in shooting, ball handling, tough shot making, ft shooting...clutch play. Catch and shoot...off ball...etc etc etc.

But you know what? What Shaq does provide...trumps all those skillset advantages Dirk has for the most part.

Nobody is arguing with you that Kobe is the more complete scorer. Complete does not mean better. We've been over and over this before with other arguments...more well rounded does not mean better.

Pippen was a more complete player than Dirk..yet Dirk was the better player. Or replace Dirk with Barkley...etc...so it's not about Dirk.

Same thing with scoring. It's doesn't matter how all that much. In your examples...you can easily take Shaq out of the game by preventing him from really ever touching the ball. Why did teams not do that? Because it would have been a field day for every other player and the people in the know that you always appeal to...clearly felt it was better to allow shaq to dominate them then allow a wide open shot fest all game.

So again...why talk about hypotheticals. If it was so easy to stop Shaq...why did he have a prime playoff ppg averageof like 28ppg on 57% shooting from the field??????

[air mamba]

Kobe is a better scorer than lebron but lebron scores better. its that simple.

[DMAVS41]

His skill set DOES translate into a better scorer, it puts more pressure on the defense and makes him harder to stop - if it wasn't for him being a superior scorer, he wouldn't have dropped 62 points on Dirk in only 3 quarters, when Dirk is a better scorer than him. No one would have said, "Well, Dirk has a higher fg%, so there is no way Kobe can drop 62 points on him in only 3 quarters"

Let's just stop it right here, admit that scoring is all about statistics to you because you think statistics perfectly measure offensive production

I think that scoring goes far beyond statistics. I watch how teams react to Kobe, and I watch how they react to LeBron and see a big difference. I have also never heard any NBA professional call LeBron or Dirk better scorers than Kobe. That should speak volumes. What makes you more basketball-knowledgeable than these NBA experts? Your stat-reading skills?

Why are you not yet employed by the NBA? You seem to know something that no one in the NBA knows, which is that Dirk and LeBron are better scorers than Kobe.


There is more to scoring than just stats, but you refuse to listen to any of those things. You keep harping on skillset.

What about decision making? What about ability to finish at the rim. What about making a higher percentage of shots late in the shot clock on higher volume?

Your entire argument is basically only that Kobe looks prettier while scoring. Which I totally agree with...but in terms of impact and actual production...Lebron wins.

Again...it has to translate. You see teams guard Kobe differently because he has different strengths. And the way you describe Kobe...it's like he just is impossible to stop. Then why are his numbers so pedestrian compared to the other great playoff scorers in terms of efficiency and ppg? He's not doing anything better when it comes to results.

And I've repeatedly tried to explain to you why. Because Kobe wastes 3 to 4 possessions a game that the other guys don't. If Kobe didn't settle and didn't wast plays the way he does...he'd be the 2nd greatest playoff scorer ever behind MJ. But he does do those things...hence he's somewhere in the Lebron, Dirk, Durant, Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem...range of prime playoff scorers. I'd put Kobe at the bottom of that list.

I can't explain this any better. If said player has a decided skill set advantage and no weaknesses as a scorer...said player should have better results as a scorer.

What are scoring results? Well...you could look at how many points a player scores and his overall scoring efficiency.

Hmmmm. I look at Kobe's and see it's really good...great even...but no better than the guys above...in fact, the results are worse.

So why is that? We all agree his skillset is essentially unmatched. So it must be his decision making and his willingness to settle on some level.

And then the argument comes in that Kobe is forced to take more bad shots late in the shot clock....but we just destroyed that nonsense as it's just factually not true.

Do you see the conundrum you are in?

[DMAVS41]

Kobe is a better scorer than lebron but lebron scores better. its that simple.

I think you are on to something here actually.

I'd change it to;

Kobe should be a better scorer than Lebron, but Lebron scores better.

[7_cody]

Kobe is a better scorer than lebron but lebron scores better. its that simple.

That's true statistically. But LeBron still doesn't strike the same fear into the defense as Kobe offensively, he isn't as big of a threat or unknown as Kobe and doesn't shift the defense as much as he does, doesn't apply the same pressure

[Hoopz2332]

That's true statistically. But LeBron still doesn't strike the same fear into the defense as Kobe offensively, he isn't as big of a threat or unknown as Kobe and doesn't shift the defense as much as he does, doesn't apply the same pressure

Lebron doesn't go out of his way to put up big scoring numbers, even when he's hot. Kobe would rather get 30 pts 5 rbs 5 ast while lebron would rather get 25 pts 10 ast and 10 rbs.

[DMAVS41]

That's true statistically. But LeBron still doesn't strike the same fear into the defense as Kobe offensively, he isn't as big of a threat or unknown as Kobe and doesn't shift the defense as much as he does, doesn't apply the same pressure

Where is the impact of this?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobe should be a better scorer than Lebron, but Lebron scores better.

All that really needs to be said. :cheers:

[air mamba]

kobe's problem is that he is very technical, a lot of times to technical, sometimes i wish he would just make the dam shot.

while lebron is very direct, he has to be because doesnt have the "skillset" but being more direct usually means better production.

[masonx20]

Just put Durant, KG, Stephen Curry on Kobe's team so when the Lakers beat the Heat those Lebron ass-kissers can STFU about how good Lechoke is.

[HurricaneKid]

That's true statistically.

Do you know what a statistic is? Explain how, statistically, Kobe is a better scorer than LeBron.

Because this:


LeBron still doesn't strike the same fear into the defense as Kobe offensively, he isn't as big of a threat or unknown as Kobe and doesn't shift the defense as much as he does, doesn't apply the same pressure

Is NOT statistical.

Empirical data. Lets see it.

[Young X]

^Single season wise?

Kobe's best scoring season - 32 on 58 TS%
Bron's best scoring season - 30 on 60 TS%

It's definitely debatable, even statistically. Then you factor in TEN 50+ point games, higher skill level (no way the Spurs could've gotten away with playing Kobe like they did Bron), etc.

[DMAVS41]

^Single season wise?

Kobe's best scoring season - 32 on 58 TS%
Bron's best scoring season - 30 on 60 TS%

It's definitely debatable, even statistically. Then you factor in TEN 50+ point games, higher skill level (no way the Spurs could've gotten away with playing Kobe like they did Bron), etc.

I don't understand this argument in all honesty. The Spurs didn't get away with guarding Lebron like that...they chose a strategy to guard Lebron. Just like they would have chosen a strategy to guard Kobe.

Lets imagine that Kobe had played a team in the finals that guarded him really tight and tried to force him to beat them by driving and playmaking. And I cam on here and said;

(no way that team could've gotten away with playing Lebron like they did Kobe)

You see my point? What is the difference? You play Lebron real tight and force him to drive and pass and he'll kill you...wouldn't even be fair. Just like if you lay off Kobe and let him shoot open 18 footers he's going to kill you...wouldn't be fair.

They have different strengths as scorers and players...not only that, but they play different positions.

I swear this argument is getting so old...

[magnax1]

I honestly feel like scoring impact is one of the hardest things to effectively quantify in bball. Id elaborate if I werent on my phone bur I think Shaq is the greatest example. Statidtically there are lots of guys who peaked higher or near Shaq, but because of the way he scored there is almost no one whos scoring impacted the game like Shaq. Lebron, at one point was on the other end of that scale. Hes slowly improved to where Id say hes better than his 25 ppg. Kobe is still much more effective in my book. Really unquestionably in terms of peak vs peak.

[eliteballer]

LeBron is historically pretty piss poor against the great defensive teams with great defensive bigs in the playoffs.

That's where his lack of skill gets exposed, not beating up on teams like the bobcats where he has always had tons of shooters to space the floor.

This past year you just see how many of his shots were open jumpers, layups on the break, easy putbacks because of the overwhelming talent and shooters Miami has in a joke conference.

[Hoopz2332]

LeBron is historically pretty piss poor against the great defensive teams with great defensive bigs in the playoffs.




lebron faces better D in the East Conf which are many of the same teams Kobe faced in the Finals in which he shot putrid FG%'s:biggums:

[ripthekik]

lebron faced boris diaw and 2 feet of wide open space, yet still could not buy a bucket. Case closed.

[Nash]

lebron faced boris diaw and 2 feet of wide open space, yet still could not buy a bucket. Case closed.
I swear, the Boris Diaw heroics are getting really overrated these days. I guess this is how myths get made.

[TommyGriffin]

I swear, the Boris Diaw heroics are getting really overrated these days. I guess this is how myths get made.
Agreed. It wasn't so much of Boris Diaw being a hero as it was LeBron choking.

[aj1987]

Agreed. It wasn't so much of Boris Diaw being a hero as it was LeBron choking.
You mean the series in which LeBron averaged 25/11/7/2/1 and put up a GOAT level G7? Yeah, you're probably used to Chokebe though. Unlike Chokebe, he didn't shoot 6/24 in a G7 of the Finals. :cheers: :cheers:

[TommyGriffin]

You mean the series in which LeBron averaged 25/11/7/2/1 and put up a GOAT level G7? Yeah, you're probably used to Chokebe though. Unlike Chokebe, he didn't shoot 6/24 in a G7 of the Finals. :cheers: :cheers:
Chokebe? Really? How old are you?

[aj1987]

Chokebe? Really? How old are you?
Definitely old enough to be your dad.

LeBron and Kobe at 31:

LeBron - 18.9 FGA
Kobe - 21.5 FGA

LeBron - 6.8 FTA
Kobe - 7.4 FTA

So, Kobe basically took 2.5 shots and a FT more than LeBron and managed only 2 points more on 3% worse efficiency, while being a worse playmaker.

Kobe can score in more ways, but who gives a shit? Points are points, however you get them.

While we're at it:

40+ point games in the Finals:

LeBron - 3
Kobe - 1

35+ point games in the Finals:

LeBron - 6
Kobe - 4

30+ point games in the Finals:

LeBron - 12
Kobe - 13

Total number of games played in the Finals:

LeBron - 33
Kobe - 37

45+ games in the Playoffs:

LeBron - 7
Kobe - 5

40+ games in the Playoffs:

LeBron - 15
Kobe - 13

35+ games in the Playoffs:

LeBron - 35
Kobe - 35

30+ games in the Playoffs:

LeBron - 80
Kobe - 88

Total number of games played in the Playoffs:

LeBron - 178
Kobe - 220

Since a retarded AF mod/admin deleted the thread with the exact stars and numbers, this is the best I can do.

[TommyGriffin]

Definitely old enough to be your dad.
That is pretty sad then because you sound like a child.

[Orlando Magic]

That is pretty sad then because you sound like a child.

You ARE a child.

[aj1987]

That is pretty sad then because I sound like a child.
Yeah, I agree.

Stick to your warriorfan account, kid. Ditch the two dozen other accounts.

[Orlando Magic]

Yeah, I agree.

Stick to your warriorfan account, kid. Ditch the two dozen other accounts.

:roll:

[stalkerforlife]

If Kobe started from day one, on a shit franchise, his career average would be 30+ a game.