Fisher: "Champion Heat by far more stacked than '00-'02 Lakers" [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

ninephive

10-02-2013, 04:49 PM

Stupid post.

Obviously a LeBron led team will underachieve because of lack of a sense of urgency and discipline.

What Fisher says it still 100% fact.
Yah because that's a "fact" that leaves no room for interpretation. 2000-2002 Shaq > 2013 Lebron and 2000-2002 Kobe > 2013 Wade. They both had a great clutch shooter (Horry/Allen) and outside of that the role players were washes if not slightly favoring the Lakers, who breezed through the playoffs. These Heat consistently find themselves on the brink of elimination in a weaker East than the West was then IMO.

Budadiiii

10-02-2013, 04:54 PM

Yah because that's a "fact" that leaves no room for interpretation. 2000-2002 Shaq > 2013 Lebron and 2000-2002 Kobe > 2013 Wade. They both had a great clutch shooter (Horry/Allen) and outside of that the role players were washes if not slightly favoring the Lakers, who breezed through the playoffs. These Heat consistently find themselves on the brink of elimination in a weaker East than the West was then IMO.
27 game win streak.

LeBron led teams will always underachieve and be on the brink of elimination because of lack of a sense of urgency and discipline.

ninephive

10-02-2013, 04:57 PM

27 game win streak.

LeBron led teams will always underachieve and be on the brink of elimination because of lack of a sense of urgency and discipline.
Ok wow the Spurs had a 20-game win streak that extended 3 rounds into the playoffs and they got beat. What does that prove?

Let's put it this way: the Lakers dropped fewer playoff games in 3 championship runs than the Heat did in 2 AND never had the luxury of playing sub-.500 teams like the Heat get to in the weak East.

TheMarkMadsen

10-02-2013, 04:59 PM

Well it's true. They are far more stacked an have alot more depth

Those Laker teams relied solely on Shaq & Kobe for 90% of their production.

At one point in the 01 playoffs Shaq had b2b 40/20 games.

Followed by Kobe having b2b 40/10 games in game 4 of the WCSF & game 1 of the WCF.

THats insane

Budadiiii

10-02-2013, 05:02 PM

Ok wow the Spurs had a 20-game win streak that extended 3 rounds into the playoffs and they got beat. What does that prove?

Let's put it this way: the Lakers dropped fewer playoff games in 3 championship runs than the Heat did in 2 AND never had the luxury of playing sub-.500 teams like the Heat get to in the weak East.
You're trying to prove something based on W/L is the playoffs when i'm trying to tell you that of course the Heat are having more trouble winning championships even with a more stacked team overall, mainly because LeBron James is the leader and has shown that he lacks the ability to instill discipline into his teammates.

In essence, you're probably right. LeBron James being on the team automatically disqualifies the Heat from being an all-time stacked team. He's a cancer in his own right.

JimmyMcAdocious

10-02-2013, 05:14 PM

If someone interviewed Sam Jones, he would probably say, "Champion Heat by far more stacked than '65-66 Boston Celtics"

If someone interviewed Bill Walton, he would probably say, "Champion Heat by far more stacked than '85-86 Boston Celtics"

If someone interviewed Toni Kukoc, he would probably say, "Champion Heat by far more stacked than '95

DMAVS41

10-02-2013, 05:14 PM

Depends on how you define this stuff.

Are we looking at the "help" for Shaq and Lebron?

I'll assume so....

So then we can compare weakest to weakest...strongest to strongest...etc.

The weakest Lebron supporting cast was 13
The weakest Shaq supporting cast was 00

I think Shaq's supporting cast was slightly better here. Mainly because nobody on the Heat was as good as Kobe. The Lakers had solid veteran role players like Rice and Harper and Horry. So I think I'd rather have that...although it's close.

Obviously the 00 Lakers as a whole were better because 00 Shaq was better than 13 Lebron and 00 Kobe was better than 13 Wade. The rest is almost meaningless...and PJ over Spo is an advantage as well.

Then lets go 11 Heat vs 02 Lakers;

I think this is where Lebron's help was better. Wade and Kobe were pretty similar...I think I'd actually favor Wade here because of his huge efficiency advantage of 57% TS to 51% TS. But they didn't have the third guy in Bosh (who was actually playing well in the 11 playoffs). Lakers couldn't match that.

Who wins? Not sure...probably the Lakers because of Shaq's dominance and Lebron's choking. But just evaluating the supporting casts of Lebron and Shaq in 11 and 02...Lebron's was better.

12 Heat vs 01 Lakers

Clear winner to me here is 01 Shaq. Shaq had the best 2nd guy and people here constantly under value just how good Fisher was in the 01 playoffs. Fox was really good as well. The Heat dealt with a Bosh injury for a lot of time as well.

12 Heat vs 01 Lakers who wins? 01 Lakers easily.

Trollsmasher

10-02-2013, 05:19 PM

I don't know

On the Heat you have:
LeBron

Wade

and a bunch of roleplayers

On the Lakers you have:
Shaq

Kobe and the other roleplayers

magnax1

10-02-2013, 05:21 PM

NumberSix

10-02-2013, 05:21 PM

Heat's finals comp > Lakers' finals comp.

DMAVS41

10-02-2013, 05:22 PM

I don't know

On the Heat you have:
LeBron

Wade

and a bunch of roleplayers

On the Lakers you have:
Shaq

Kobe and a the other roleplayers

Here is what most people won't want to admit or simply don't remember.

01 Fisher was just as good or better than 12 Bosh in the playoffs. Fisher didn't miss any games either....

longtime lurker

10-02-2013, 05:26 PM

Fisher saying what we all know.

DMAVS41

10-02-2013, 05:28 PM

Probably true this year and in 11. This year they had probably a good 5 or 6 players other than Lebron who could do something positive, and 11 Wade was the second or first best player in the NBA.
The 00 Lakers team had a lot of good pieces too though. The other teams were really just Shaq and Kobe however.

I think you should take a look at the 01 Lakers compared to the 12 Heat.

Fisher vs Bosh
Chalmers vs Fox
Battier vs Grant
Horry vs Haslem
Miller vs Shaw
Kobe vs Wade

I don't know...I think people over-rate the names on Lebron's team. Go back and take a look...

magnax1

10-02-2013, 05:28 PM

Here is what most people won't want to admit or simply don't remember.

01 Fisher was just as good or better than 12 Bosh in the playoffs. Fisher didn't miss any games either....
If you could replay those playoffs one hundred times Fisher wouldn't have shot as well as he did in 01 except for maybe once or twice. It was an anomaly and it really means nothing. People give the 01 Lakers way to much credit for being just that, an anomaly. Bosh was injured anyway so its not really a fair comparison.

magnax1

10-02-2013, 05:32 PM

I think you should take a look at the 01 Lakers compared to the 12 Heat.

Fisher vs Bosh
Chalmers vs Fox
Battier vs Grant
Horry vs Haslem
Miller vs Shaw
Kobe vs Wade

I don't know...I think people over-rate the names on Lebron's team. Go back and take a look...
I was agreeing the 12 Heat weren't that impressive. the 11 and 13 teams had a lot more talent. I mean, Battier was god ****ing awfull all season and still got starting minutes no matter what. Haslem looked pretty bad that year, and they didn't have a center that they really played all playoffs.

DMAVS41

10-02-2013, 05:32 PM

If you could replay those playoffs one hundred times Fisher wouldn't have shot as well as he did in 01 except for maybe once or twice. It was an anomaly and it really means nothing. People give the 01 Lakers way to much credit for being just that, an anomaly. Bosh was injured anyway so its not really a fair comparison.

See...I hate that line of thinking. Why go off hypotheticals when we can actually look at what happened?

Obviously Bosh is a better player than Fisher, but he really wasn't 12 vs 01. So what is the point of playing the games if we just assume said player is going to produce at a level that isn't way above or below their standards?

Wade wasn't 100%. Bosh missed games. Fisher was on fire. Those things happened. Pretending they didn't seems like the unfair comparison.

talamo

10-02-2013, 05:33 PM

The dominance of Shaq and the ultimate "sidekick" Kobe have people calling the 02 Lakers stacked

branslowski

10-02-2013, 05:33 PM

DMAVS41

10-02-2013, 05:36 PM

I was agreeing the 12 Heat weren't that impressive. the 11 and 13 teams had a lot more talent. I mean, Battier was god ****ing awfull all season and still got starting minutes no matter what. Haslem looked pretty bad that year, and they didn't have a center that they really played all playoffs.

But that is the things...the 13 Heat were worse. Bosh was worse. Wade was way worse. Chalmers was worse. Battier was worse.

The addition of Allen and Andersen helped to make up for the above, but not having a legit star in Wade like he was in 12 was a big hit. And this doesn't even bring in the affect of Lebron playing worse in 13 than he did in 12.

The reason the 13 Heat won was because of the weak competition and the Spurs missing free throws. Play the 13 Heat against the 12 competition and they don't even get to the Finals.

DMAVS41

10-02-2013, 05:39 PM

Nothin news worthy here, he's right.

Shaq/Kobe and inconsistent garbage vs LeBron/Wade/Bosh and Ray Allen who saved LeBron's career.

Nothing to see here folks.

Samething with the Kobe/Gasol Lakers. 2 Great players surrounded by inconsistent bums. Kobe has never played on a full stacked team. Garbage benches, weak backcourt teammates...lol at Samaki Walker, Kwame, Bynum 6ppg 3reb playoffs, and overrated Odom never scoring more than Mo Williams in the Playoffs.

Is 01 Fisher a bum?

You see...at some point we have to evaluate what these guys actually do on the court. 12 and 13 Bosh vs 01 Fisher? Give me Fisher both years...

So why list a "bum" on your definition as an important piece on the Heat? Seems like an absurd double standard as usual.

magnax1

10-02-2013, 05:39 PM

See...I hate that line of thinking. Why go off hypotheticals when we can actually look at what happened?
What happened is based off statistical chance. Sure, you can point out Fishers stats, but I cant help but laugh if you're going to try and say Fisher is a 50% three point shooter on like 15 points a game. If we're going to evaluate players based off 15 games, than Im going to start Claiming Dwight has been a 25-15 player and Kobe is a 43 ppg scorer.
I don't know if you know anything about sample size, but that's all this is really about. I mean, If you want to point out someones production increases over multiple playoff runs, that's worth noting. 15 games isn't.

All Net

10-02-2013, 05:40 PM

That laker team were more consistent outside of option number 1.

DMAVS41

10-02-2013, 05:42 PM

What happened is based off statistical chance. Sure, you can point out Fishers stats, but I cant help but laugh if you're going to try and say Fisher is a 50% three point shooter on like 15 points a game. If we're going to evaluate players based off 15 games, than Im going to start Claiming Dwight has been a 25-15 player and Kobe is a 43 ppg scorer.
I don't know if you know anything about sample size, but that's all this is really about. I mean, If you want to point out someones production increases over multiple playoff runs, that's worth noting. 15 games isn't.

Do you not see the problem.

You just saw Branslowski do this;

"it was Shaq/Kobe and bums vs Lebron/Wade/Bosh..."

But here is the problem with that. 12 and 13 Bosh was probably not even as good as 01 Fisher in the playoffs.

That was my point.

I'm not saying that Fisher is going to always play like that. My point is that he DID play like that...

You are missing the entire point here.

magnax1

10-02-2013, 05:49 PM

Battier was worse.
Ill leave the others alone, even though I dont really agree, but this is ludicrous. Battier was pathetically bad in 12. I mean, I dont think he really deserved his minutes either year, but he was terrible in 12. Massive offensive liability, and nothing terribly special on D. He wasn't amazing on D this year either, but at least he looked mobile on offense, could get the ball out of his hands if he was D'd up and shot way better.

The reason the 13 Heat won was because of the weak competition and the Spurs missing free throws. Play the 13 Heat against the 12 competition and they don't even get to the Finals.
They both had really weak competition. 12 Heat played the Pacers only because Dwight was out, and played the Celtics only because Rose was out, and still played a close series despite the fact that Boston couldn't rebound, was ranked like 30th on offense and didn't have Avery Bradley.
Overall the 12 Heat had less production surrounding Lebron, but Lebron did step it up that year and really showed up in every series. There's a reason the 13 Heat won so much more.

DuMa

10-02-2013, 05:52 PM

so Fisher is pretty much saying he himself was inadequate compared to the starting PG of the Heat, Chalmers.

Rio stays winning bro.

DMAVS41

10-02-2013, 05:53 PM

Ill leave the others alone, even though I dont really agree, but this is ludicrous. Battier was pathetically bad in 12. I mean, I dont think he really deserved his minutes either year, but he was terrible in 12. Massive offensive liability, and nothing terribly special on D. He wasn't amazing on D this year either, but at least he looked mobile on offense, could get the ball out of his hands if he was D'd up and shot way better.

They both had really weak competition. 12 Heat played the Pacers only because Dwight was out, and played the Celtics only because Rose was out, and still played a close series despite the fact that Boston couldn't rebound, was ranked like 30th on offense and didn't have Avery Bradley.
Overall the 12 Heat had less production surrounding Lebron, but Lebron did step it up that year and really showed up in every series. There's a reason the 13 Heat won so much more.

There's a reason the 13 Heat won so much more? Both teams went 16-7 in the playoffs.

What are you talking about?

aj242

10-02-2013, 05:53 PM

If you could replay those playoffs one hundred times Fisher wouldn't have shot as well as he did in 01 except for maybe once or twice. It was an anomaly and it really means nothing. People give the 01 Lakers way to much credit for being just that, an anomaly. Bosh was injured anyway so its not really a fair comparison.

I've said it on this board for years! Derrick Fisher is going to Hell when he dies! He sold his soul to the devil for that 01' playoff run. He shot 56% from 3 the entire playoffs. Including 15-25 from 3 against the Spurs. Shaq & Kobe took turns killing people while Horry & Fisher make just back breaking 3's!

2000 & 2002 LA supporting cast was timely but nothing to right home about.

2001 supporting cast was consistent for whatever reason.

magnax1

10-02-2013, 05:53 PM

You are missing the entire point here.
No, your point is just invalid. You're trying to say Fisher is more productive based off 15 games without context. Fisher isn't more productive or better than Bosh regardless of the stretch of games you use.

DMAVS41

10-02-2013, 06:00 PM

No, your point is just invalid. You're trying to say Fisher is more productive based off 15 games without context. Fisher isn't more productive or better than Bosh regardless of the stretch of games you use.

If we are talking about the strength of these teams in the playoffs these years...why would we not use how these players played during the time we are talking about?

Regardless of any stretch of games? I beg to differ. 01 Fisher was just as good or better than 13 Bosh in the playoffs. Lets take a look shall we;

Fisher 13/4/3 62% TS
Bosh 12/7/2 52% TS

And then we could talk about how inept Bosh was on defense at times and how he just went ghost in big games.

You are making my point for me. Bosh is just a name. It means nothing here when we can actually go back and look at how players played. Fisher was amazing in the 01 playoffs and the strength of the supporting cast for Shaq needs to be adjusted based on his play.

Just like the inept play of Bosh needs to matter for the supporting cast of Lebron.

But just to make sure I understand you. You are saying that because Fisher played well above his normal standards...it doesn't count?

TheMarkMadsen

10-02-2013, 06:00 PM

No, your point is just invalid. You're trying to say Fisher is more productive based off 15 games without context. Fisher isn't more productive or better than Bosh regardless of the stretch of games you use.

Don't even bother with this guy. A few days ago in the "D wades first 3 rings > Kobes first 3 rings" this dude originally went with Wades first 3 being better. Later on after being presented with numerous facts that made it hard to go with Wade he grinders his teeth and picked Kobe yet still picked 12 Wade > 00 Kobe and that it was close when comparing 02 Kobe to 12 Wade

Yet in this thread he was quick to point out that 2000 Kobe was better than any help Lebrons had

:lol

He doesn't have a real opinion, it's just whatever side makes Kobe look worse, he takes it.

DMAVS41

10-02-2013, 06:02 PM

Don't even bother with this guy. A few days ago in the "D wades first 3 rings > Kobes first 3 rings" this dude originally went with Wades first 3 being better. Later on after being presented with numerous facts that made it hard to go with Wade he grinders his teeth and picked Kobe yet still picked 12 Wade > 00 Kobe and that it was close when comparing 02 Kobe to 12 Wade

Yet in this thread he was quick to point out that 2000 Kobe was better than any help Lebrons had

:lol

He doesn't have a real opinion, it's just whatever side makes Kobe look worse, he takes it.

Uhhh...what?

I said 11 Wade was better than 02 Kobe. Moron...

branslowski

10-02-2013, 06:03 PM

DMAVS41

10-02-2013, 06:06 PM

Saying Fisher better than Bosh in any Circumstance just reeks of stupidity and agenda pushing. But, I would say (yes homer pick more than anything, agree to disagree if you want) that I'm taking Fisher in the 4th quarter over any version of Bosh. Yes, including the 24-10 Bosh. Any day of the week. 25/8 son.

This is your problem then. You are too biased to evaluate what actually happens on the court.

An on fire Fisher in the 01 playoffs certainly has an argument for being more valuable than the joke Bosh we saw in the 13 playoffs.

But of course we must ignore Bosh's horrid defense and inept 12/7/2 on piss poor efficiency and pretend he's really good. Why? So it furthers your agenda.

ISH...where a 12/7/2 52% TS player that sucks on defense and is worthless late in games is a star...and a 13/4/3 player 62% TS that is actually a solid defender and great late in games is a "bum"

Yep...makes sense.

branslowski

10-02-2013, 06:14 PM

This is your problem then. You are too biased to evaluate what actually happens on the court.

An on fire Fisher in the 01 playoffs certainly has an argument for being more valuable than the joke Bosh we saw in the 13 playoffs.

But of course we must ignore Bosh's horrid defense and inept 12/7/2 on piss poor efficiency and pretend he's really good. Why? So it furthers your agenda.

ISH...where a 12/7/2 52% TS player that sucks on defense and is worthless late in games is a star...and a 13/4/3 player 62% TS that is actually a solid defender and great late in games is a "bum"

Yep...makes sense.

Wait, ain't you the same n!gga who talks about Lakers stacked frontline with Odom dropping 12-8 and Bynum dropping 6ppg 3reb?:oldlol:

Then you tryna tell me what my team that I was watching was doing because you got the skills to search boxscores? You wanna talk about oncourt wen you the main stat nerd idiot who gets owned and laughed out of threads.:oldlol:

I'm not even bothering with ur stupidity Mr Spurs/Heat/ Mavs fan.

Gtfo my face, go make some koolaid and eat a sandwitch.:oldlol:

DMAVS41

10-02-2013, 06:17 PM

Wait, ain't you the same n!gga who talks about Lakers stacked frontline with Odom dropping 12-8 and Bynum dropping 6ppg 3reb?:oldlol:

Then you tryna tell me what my team that I was watching was doing because you got the skills to search boxscores? You wanna talk about oncourt wen you the main stat nerd idiot who gets owned and laughed out of threads.:oldlol:

I'm not even bothering with ur stupidity Mr Spurs/Heat/ Mavs fan.

Gtfo my face, go make some koolaid and eat a sandwitch.:oldlol:

More ad hominem because you can't refute the argument.

Why can't we simply compare the value of 01 Fisher in the playoffs to 13 Bosh in the playoffs. It seems reasonable to do so. Both were the 3rd best players on their team...etc.

But we can't because it doesn't fit your agenda...

And you still won't listen to the stacked front court thing. So let me try yet agani.

Pay attention. Please...it's not hard. Take a look;

Gasol/Odom/Bynum together is stacked

Odom/Bynum is not stacked

Do you see? Stop removing a 20/10/4 big man from the equation. Please use your brain for a change.

branslowski

10-02-2013, 06:23 PM

More ad hominem because you can't refute the argument.

Why can't we simply compare the value of 01 Fisher in the playoffs to 13 Bosh in the playoffs. It seems reasonable to do so. Both were the 3rd best players on their team...etc.

But we can't because it doesn't fit your agenda...

Then you ignore the fact that you switch stances to fit agendas. You pull up Boshs numbers, shows he's a bum, yet u call Lakers frontline stacked wen Odom drops 12-8 and Bynum drops 6ppg and 3reb....And I remember ur rebuttal on that "It's not about the numbers, blah blah"

So numbers only matters when it fits ur agenda?

You know wat, I'll even concede that Fisher>>>Bosh in the serieses u comparing. No hair off my tongue, I f*cks with my boy Fisher, leave him open at the 3pt line, he kills you.

branslowski

10-02-2013, 06:25 PM

Omg, my point has always been "Kobe/Gasol and role players, not stacked team" Can you atleast agree to this fact?

DMAVS41

10-02-2013, 06:25 PM

Then you ignore the fact that you switch stances to fit agendas. You pull up Boshs numbers, shows he's a bum, yet u call Lakers frontline stacked wen Odom drops 12-8 and Bynum drops 6ppg and 3reb....And I remember ur rebuttal on that "It's not about the numbers, blah blah"

So numbers only matters when it fits ur agenda?

You know wat, I'll even concede that Fisher>>>Bosh in the serieses u comparing. No hair off my tongue, I f*cks with my boy Fisher, leave him open at the 3pt line, he kills you.

I'm not doing that.

I'm saying that Gasol/Odom/Bynum together was stacked.

Not that Odom/Bynum together is stacked.

The fact that you still can't grasp the difference floors me.

Why do you continue to remove Gasol (the most important front court player on the Lakers) from a conversation about how good the Lakers frontcourt was? It makes absolutely no sense.

Glad you conceded though...

DMAVS41

10-02-2013, 06:27 PM

Omg, my point has always been "Kobe/Gasol and role players, not stacked team" Can you atleast agree to this fact?

Why are you grouping Kobe/Gasol together? It doesn't make sense.

Agree with what? That the rest of the Lakers on their own don't constitute a stacked team? No shit...then no team is stacked in the modern era.

Take the two best players off any title team and they aren't stacked...no shit.

Your line of thinking makes no sense.

And again...on that line of thinking. It's Lebron/Wade and role players...as you have defined Bosh in 12 and 13 as a role player based on your own criteria. So there is no difference.

You Kobe stans need to realize this at some point. 08 to 10 Odom and 01 Fisher are about as good or better than 12 and 13 Bosh. You might not like it, but it's the truth...sorry.

IllegalD

10-02-2013, 06:31 PM

Why are you grouping Kobe/Gasol together? It doesn't make sense.

Agree with what? That the rest of the Lakers on their own don't constitute a stacked team? No shit...then no team is stacked in the modern era.

Take the two best players off any title team and they aren't stacked...no shit.

Your line of thinking makes no sense.

And again...on that line of thinking. It's Lebron/Wade and role players...as you have defined Bosh in 12 and 13 as a role player based on your own criteria. So there is no difference.

You Kobe stans need to realize this at some point. 08 to 10 Odom and 01 Fisher are about as good or better than 12 and 13 Bosh. You might not like it, but it's the truth...sorry.

http://data.whicdn.com/images/8420843/adbusters_obsession_for_men_large.jpg

branslowski

10-02-2013, 06:32 PM

Why are you grouping Kobe/Gasol together? It doesn't make sense.

Agree with what? That the rest of the Lakers on their own don't constitute a stacked team? No shit...then no team is stacked in the modern era.

Take the two best players off any title team and they aren't stacked...no shit.

Your line of thinking makes no sense.

And again...on that line of thinking. It's Lebron/Wade and role players...as you have defined Bosh in 12 and 13 as a role player based on your own criteria. So there is no difference.

.

Wat do you mean "why I keep removing Gasol"? It's because I'm saying The Lakers were Kobe/Gasol and role players.:oldlol:

By ur dumb logic, this means Heat also had a stacked frontline.:oldlol:

IllegalD

10-02-2013, 06:32 PM

I'm still waiting for a source of where Fish said this.

I don't see it anywhere...

DMAVS41

10-02-2013, 06:34 PM

Wat do you mean "why I keep removing Gasol"? It's because I'm saying The Lakers were Kobe/Gasol and role players.:oldlol:

By ur dumb logic, this means Heat also had a stacked frontline.:oldlol:

I don't even know how to respond. How do the Heat have a stacked front line?

I count Gasol as part of the frontline. Why? Because he's part of the ****ing frontline.

It literally makes no sense to think about a frontline without it's best and most important player. Which is exactly what you do when you remove Gasol from the equation.

IllegalD

10-02-2013, 06:39 PM

zoom17

10-02-2013, 06:40 PM

Stop swinging from Kobe's nuts for once in your life, please.

There are a million other topics you can talk about, but it's always about Kobe with you.

Maybe because Half the threads are about kobe and the Half are about Lebron:confusedshrug:

IllegalD

10-02-2013, 06:41 PM

Maybe because Half the threads are about kobe and the Half are about Lebron:confusedshrug:

So then why not spend some time in the LeBron ones?

Or try to make his own non-Kobe/LeBron topic?

:confusedshrug:

branslowski

10-02-2013, 06:42 PM

I don't even know how to respond. How do the Heat have a stacked front line?

I count Gasol as part of the frontline. Why? Because he's part of the ****ing frontline.

It literally makes no sense to think about a frontline without it's best and most important player. Which is exactly what you do when you remove Gasol from the equation.

:oldlol: You can't possibly be this stupid.

I say Lakers were Kobe/Gasol and role players, not stacked. Because Frontline was Bynum, Odom, and Artest. I'm eliminating Gasol because my statement is that besides Kobe/Gasol, the team wasn't stacked.

Yet you seem to think just because Gasol is on the frontline, it makes the WHOLE frontline stacked, which it doesn't. This just means Gasol is good and others aren't, doesn't make them all stacked, and by the same dumb logic ur using, this is wat happens

Heats Frontline is stacked because LeBron is on it. So disregard Bosh n Haslem numbers because LeBron is apart of the frontline which makes them stacked. The same exact dumb thing ur doing wen it comes to Gasol being on the Frontline.

How are you not grasping this?:oldlol:

Droid101

10-02-2013, 06:44 PM

Don't bother arguing with dmavs. He posts nothing but thinly veiled anti-Kobe/anti-Laker troll posts while pretending to be a Mavs fan and it's getting tiring.

zoom17

10-02-2013, 06:45 PM

DMAVS41

10-02-2013, 06:46 PM

:oldlol: You can't possibly be this stupid.

I say Lakers were Kobe/Gasol and role players, not stacked. Because Frontline was Bynum, Odom, and Artest. I'm eliminating Gasol because my statement is that besides Kobe/Gasol, the team wasn't stacked.

Yet you seem to think just because Gasol is on the frontline, it makes the WHOLE frontline stacked, which it doesn't. This just means Gasol is good and others aren't, doesn't make them all stacked, and by the same dumb logic ur using, this is wat happens

Heats Frontline is stacked because LeBron is on it. So disregard Bosh n Haslem numbers because LeBron is apart of the frontline which makes them stacked. The same exact dumb thing ur doing wen it comes to Gasol being on the Frontline.

How are you not grasping this?:oldlol:

You can't be this stupid. You really can't.

You are so confused it's just awful.

When talking about the supporting cast of Kobe and Lebron...you don't include them in it. That wouldn't make sense.

So when people say;

"Kobe had a stacked front line"

They are saying that Gasol/Odom/Bynum/Artest constitute a stacked front line. Which it does.

If you remove Gasol...then it is no longer a stacked frontline.

For Lebron...you don't talk about himself in the supporting cast.

Now, if you looked at it from Wade's supporting cast...then yes. Lebron/Bosh/Andersen...etc. That constitutes a stacked front line.

You seriously can't be this stupid. We are talking about the help from Lebron's perspective and Kobe's perspective. Nobody has ever said..."outside of Kobe/Gasol...the Lakers were stacked"

Nobody...never been uttered.

IllegalD

10-02-2013, 06:50 PM

You can't be this stupid. You really can't.

You are so confused it's just awful.

When talking about the supporting cast of Kobe and Lebron...you don't include them in it. That wouldn't make sense.

So when people say;

"Kobe had a stacked front line"

They are saying that Gasol/Odom/Bynum/Artest constitute a stacked front line. Which it does.

If you remove Gasol...then it is no longer a stacked frontline.

For Lebron...you don't talk about himself in the supporting cast.

Now, if you looked at it from Wade's supporting cast...then yes. Lebron/Bosh/Andersen...etc. That constitutes a stacked front line.

You seriously can't be this stupid. We are talking about the help from Lebron's perspective and Kobe's perspective. Nobody has ever said..."outside of Kobe/Gasol...the Lakers were stacked"

Nobody...never been uttered.

But you constantly mention BYNUM along with the "stacked frontline". When Bynum didn't do $hit.

branslowski

10-02-2013, 06:57 PM

DMAVS41

10-02-2013, 07:00 PM

But you constantly mention BYNUM along with the "stacked frontline". When Bynum didn't do $hit.

Oh but he did in 2010;

9/7/1 in 24 minutes

So lets see. That isn't doing shit...

What is your take on Tyson Chandler in the 11 playoffs? Did he do shit?

8/9/0 in 32 minutes

It's just embarrassing at this point.

branslowski

10-02-2013, 07:01 PM

You too argue like a married couple :roll: :roll: :roll:

:oldlol:

Look, I know u fight for the anti Kobe side....But you can't with a straight face tell me you don't understand wat I'm saying..

Twiens

10-02-2013, 07:02 PM

Bosh as a 3rd option is waaaaaaaaay better than anything LA threw out there

branslowski

10-02-2013, 07:03 PM

DMAVS41

10-02-2013, 07:03 PM

Dmavs, do you f*cking know how to read?:oldlol:

Me posting "Besides Kobe/Gasol" means what??? IT F*CKING MEANS I'M LOOKING FROM BOTH KOBE'S AND GASOLS PERSPECTIVE!

And even if I'm looking from just Kobe...Then the facts tell me Kobe had Great Gasol, with subpar other role players.:oldlol:

Just because 1 player puts up great numbers on a frontline does not mean the whole Frontline/team is stacked. It means Gasol is great and others aren't.

Again First title Run in 09':

Odom 12ppg 8reb
Bynum 6ppg 3reb

Second title run:

Odom 9-8
Bynum 8-8
Artest 11ppg 4reb

Frontline isn't stacked. Just Gasol is super productive.

How can a whole team be stacked, with only 2 great players and subpar role players? How Dmavs?:lol

I already answered this.

You can't look at it from both the Kobe and Gasol perspective. That is simply retarded.

Then no team in the modern era is even remotely stacked.

It's honestly the worst argument ever and doesn't even make sense.

I already answered this....many times. Yet you continue to use the same terrible argument that makes no sense.

And the defeater is simple. You don't actually believe that. Because you call the Heat stacked all the time.

So please tell me how the Heat are stacked outside of Lebron and Wade?

IllegalD

10-02-2013, 07:03 PM

Oh but he did in 2010;

9/7/1 in 24 minutes

So lets see. That isn't doing shit...

What is your take on Tyson Chandler in the 11 playoffs? Did he do shit?

8/9/0 in 32 minutes

It's just embarrassing at this point.

:roll:

@ you comparing Chandler's impact/performance in 11 (perhaps the 2nd most important player on that championship team) with Bynum's. Just a perfect example of how stats don't tell the whole story.

Anyone who thinks that Bynum's impact during the Lakers championship runs is = to or close to Chandler's is DELUSIONAL. (that must be what the "D" on your nickname stands for)

DMAVS41

10-02-2013, 07:04 PM

You brag about 9-7, but a page earlier Bosh is garbage with 12-7-2?:roll: :roll:

What are you talking about? I'm not saying Bynum is better than Bosh.

I'm saying he did more than nothing. I'm saying that when you combine Gasol/Odom/Bynum/Artest...you get a stacked front line.

Which you ****ing do.

DMAVS41

10-02-2013, 07:08 PM

:roll:

@ you comparing Chandler's impact/performance in 11 (perhaps the 2nd most important player on that championship team) with Bynum's. Just a perfect example of how stats don't tell the whole story.

Anyone who thinks that Bynum's impact during the Lakers championship runs is = to or close to Chandler's is DELUSIONAL. (that must be what the "D" on your nickname stands for)

Comparing? Yes...I'm comparing them.

Chandler was no doubt better and more valuable, but the point was made to illustrate how much better Bynum actually was than you morons think.

9/7/1 in 24 minutes is very good production. And writing that off as "shit"....just makes my point for me.

branslowski

10-02-2013, 07:10 PM

I already answered this.

You can't look at it from both the Kobe and Gasol perspective. That is simply retarded.

Then no team in the modern era is even remotely stacked.

It's honestly the worst argument ever and doesn't even make sense.

I already answered this....many times. Yet you continue to use the same terrible argument that makes no sense.

And the defeater is simple. You don't actually believe that. Because you call the Heat stacked all the time.

So please tell me how the Heat are stacked outside of Lebron and Wade?

This is your art of trolling. Act oblivious to a clear point I'm making....Now u want me to tell you how the Heat was stacked outside of LeBron/Wade, yet won't accept the fact that Lakers aren't stacked outside of Kobe/Gasol? Ohh, because I'm not allowed to remove Gasol because it doesn't benefit ur agenda.:roll: :roll: :roll:

DMAVS41

10-02-2013, 07:13 PM

This is your art of trolling. Act oblivious to a clear point I'm making....Now u want me to tell you how the Heat was stacked outside of LeBron/Wade, yet won't accept the fact that Lakers aren't stacked outside of Kobe/Gasol? Ohh, because I'm not allowed to remove Gasol because it doesn't benefit ur agenda.:roll: :roll: :roll:

No. I want you to actually use your brain.

You call the Heat stacked all the time. Yet on your own criteria (removing the two best players of a team)...you can't show the Heat are stacked.

Guess what. I don't think the Heat are stacked outside of Wade/Lebron...just like I don't think the Lakers were stacked outside of Kobe/Gasol.

I don't use that definition for stacked though. You clearly do. Yet here is your problem. You call the Heat stacked all the time...

Therefore I'd like to hear how the Heat are stacked outside of their two best players.

You follow?

G-train

10-02-2013, 07:19 PM

If Wade and Bosh were healthy then Fisher is right.
And Miami would not have lost many games on the way to the title in that scenario either.

branslowski

10-02-2013, 07:20 PM

No. I want you to actually use your brain.

You call the Heat stacked all the time. Yet on your own criteria (removing the two best players of a team)...you can't show the Heat are stacked.

Guess what. I don't think the Heat are stacked outside of Wade/Lebron...just like I don't think the Lakers were stacked outside of Kobe/Gasol.

I don't use that definition for stacked though. You clearly do. Yet here is your problem. You call the Heat stacked all the time...

Therefore I'd like to hear how the Heat are stacked outside of their two best players.

You follow?

I do follow....Bosh when healthy makes them the truth, but recently, they aren't stacked as a whole team. Just like Lakers aren't.

If you wanna do besides Kobe and LeBron....Then Kobe still only has Gasol, while Bron has Wade (who use to be a top 3 player in the league and has a Finals MVP) and Bosh who's been to more Allstar games than Gasol and had a higher peak than Gasol.

Either way, It's a losing battle for you idiot.

At the end of the day, glad we can agree that outside of Kobe/Gasol, Lakers were average and the team wasn't stacked.

Good day you mark ass trick.

DMAVS41

10-02-2013, 07:24 PM

I do follow....Bosh when healthy makes them the truth, but recently, they aren't stacked as a whole team. Just like Lakers aren't.

If you wanna do besides Kobe and LeBron....Then Kobe still only has Gasol, while Bron has Wade (who use to be a top 3 player in the league and has a Finals MVP) and Bosh who's been to more Allstar games than Gasol and had a higher peak than Gasol.

Either way, It's a losing battle for you idiot.

At the end of the day, glad we can agree that outside of Kobe/Gasol, Lakers were average and the team wasn't stacked.

Good day you mark ass trick.

You don't judge teams like that. Glad we agreed the Heat aren't stacked on your own criteria.

So you have been proven wrong. Since I have never called the Lakers stacked outside of Kobe/Gasol...that point is not relevant to me. It is to you though...as you routinely have called the 13 Heat stacked...now you are admitting they weren't on your own criteria.

Oh...and it depends on what Bosh you are talking about. Like 11? Lebron's supporting cast in 11 was clearly better than anything Kobe had from 08 through 10.

But 12 and 13 Bosh? Nah...he's Lamar Odom...nothing better. You need to grasp that at some point...

More ad hominem after you lose yet again.

Time for my turn...

Go back to Wal-Mart you ****ing moron...

magnax1

10-02-2013, 07:34 PM

If we are talking about the strength of these teams in the playoffs these years...why would we not use how these players played during the time we are talking about?

Regardless of any stretch of games? I beg to differ. 01 Fisher was just as good or better than 13 Bosh in the playoffs. Lets take a look shall we;

Fisher 13/4/3 62% TS
Bosh 12/7/2 52% TS

And then we could talk about how inept Bosh was on defense at times and how he just went ghost in big games.

You are making my point for me. Bosh is just a name. It means nothing here when we can actually go back and look at how players played. Fisher was amazing in the 01 playoffs and the strength of the supporting cast for Shaq needs to be adjusted based on his play.

Just like the inept play of Bosh needs to matter for the supporting cast of Lebron.

But just to make sure I understand you. You are saying that because Fisher played well above his normal standards...it doesn't count?
Like I said, if you want to go by 15 game stretches Kobe was a 43 ppg scorer. You cant act like Fisher is better than Bosh. Hell, even if you straight up asked the 01 Lakers to trade Fisher's 15 games for Bosh's theyd say yes in a heartbeat. That isn't even what matter though.
Sample size. Go learn about it.

DMAVS41

10-02-2013, 07:38 PM

Like I said, if you want to go by 15 game stretches Kobe was a 43 ppg scorer. You cant act like Fisher is better than Bosh. Hell, even if you straight up asked the 01 Lakers to trade Fisher's 15 games for Bosh's theyd say yes in a heartbeat.

I don't follow this. We are talking about the playoffs. Kobe didn't have a 43 ppg stretch the years in question.

If we can't actually evaluate players on their production...I don't know what the point of any of this actually is.

So what Jason Terry did in the 11 playoffs doesn't count either? So I guess that makes Dirk's title even more impressive if we can't factor in the likes of Terry playing way better than his normal standards.

It matters what these guys actually do.

The fact that you keep going on about sample size shows how ignorant you are in this case. We aren't comparing Bosh to Fisher as players overall. We are comparing what they actually did in the years in question. Sample size is irrelevant in this case...

For example. It's perfectly reasonable to say that Jason Terry in the 2011 playoffs was better than Wade in the 13 playoffs. Yet we all know Wade is a better player overall. Do you really not follow the difference?

magnax1

10-02-2013, 07:39 PM

I don't follow this. We are talking about the playoffs.
Since when? We're talking about which teams were better. That doesn't mean you should exclusively look at the playoffs.

tpols

10-02-2013, 07:42 PM

DMAVS41

10-02-2013, 07:44 PM

Since when? We're talking about which teams were better. That doesn't mean you should exclusively look at the playoffs.

Which version of which team though?

The 13 Heat on the streak?

The 13 Heat in the playoffs?

I mean...this is all based on what? The assumption that everyone is in their prime and healthy? Or on what actually happened on the court in the years in question?

Seems to me it doesn't make sense to talk about how great a team is of the past based on things that didn't happen on the court when the games matter the most.

DMAVS41

10-02-2013, 07:45 PM

This isnt what Fisher is talking about.

Hes saying outside of superstars, the Heat right now are far more stacked than the Lakers were. They have way better role players and defenders.. better third option. The whole team is super deep.. stacked.

One game battier can go off, then chalmers the next, mike miller next, ray allen, birdman was shooting like 70% in the playoffs plus hes a defensive beast.. now they have oden. All on top of three perrenial all stars in their primes.

Shaq Kobe did more heavy lifting than Bosh, Wade and Lebron combined as only two players.

That is just an argument for being deeper...not more stacked though. Completely different argument.

magnax1

10-02-2013, 07:48 PM

Which version of which team though?

What kind of question is that? When someone asks you how good the 98 Bulls are, nobody says "Well is that with or without Scottie Pippen?"
If you're asking which team is better, you're pretty much implying they're healthy unless its some extreme exception like Bill Walton or Oden not playing for a whole season or something.

7_cody

10-02-2013, 07:49 PM

That is just an argument for being deeper...not more stacked though. Completely different argument.

If the Heat are deeper than the Lakers, but not more stacked, than that means Kobe and Shaq are that damn good, right?

Heat are deeper, but the Lakers are more stacked, because... well, they aren't as deep, they had Kobe and Shaq

Also, I was reading this thread and someone said 01 Fisher is as impactful as Bosh

:roll:

tpols

10-02-2013, 07:50 PM

That is just an argument for being deeper...not more stacked though.
Stacked means your team has more spread out talent at every position. Your roster more filled out perfectly. The Heat have had role players outside of LBJ/Wade that have stepped up more than Laker role players outside of Kobe/Shaq plus they had an infinitely better third option in Bosh.

DMAVS41

10-02-2013, 07:51 PM

What kind of question is that? When someone asks you how good the 98 Bulls are, nobody says "Well is that with or without Scottie Pippen?"
If you're asking which team is better, you're pretty much implying they're healthy unless its some extreme exception like Bill Walton or Oden not playing for a whole season or something.

Well...it really matters. If I'm comparing the 98 Bulls to the 00 Lakers or something.

It really matters what version of Pippen we are using. The guy fighting a bad back for the majority of the playoffs? Or Pippen being healthy. It changes my answer.

Put a healthy Wade from the 27 game win streak in the 13 playoffs and the Heat might not lose a game. But the Heat didn't have that.

You see...this is all built in to an evaluation if you use what actually happened.

So yea, ummmm, it really does matter.

DMAVS41

10-02-2013, 07:53 PM

Stacked means your team has more spread out talent at every position. Your roster more filled out perfectly. The Heat have had role players outside of LBJ/Wade that have stepped up more than Laker role players outside of Kobe/Shaq plus they had an infinitely better third option in Bosh.

That might be how you define stacked, but my definition is not stacked = depth.

tpols

10-02-2013, 07:55 PM

That might be how you define stacked, but my definition is not stacked = depth.
I mean.. thats what Fisher is saying. Thats how most people would define stacked.

DMAVS41

10-02-2013, 07:55 PM

Stacked means your team has more spread out talent at every position. Your roster more filled out perfectly. The Heat have had role players outside of LBJ/Wade that have stepped up more than Laker role players outside of Kobe/Shaq plus they had an infinitely better third option in Bosh.

Infinitely better in 11...not in 12 and 13. Glen Rice in 00 was about as good as Bosh in 12 and 13...maybe slightly worse overall.

This all makes sense if you throw 11 Bosh onto these teams. But that isn't reality.

7_cody

10-02-2013, 07:55 PM

magnax1

10-02-2013, 07:56 PM

Well...it really matters. If I'm comparing the 98 Bulls to the 00 Lakers or something.

It really matters what version of Pippen we are using. The guy fighting a bad back for the majority of the playoffs? Or Pippen being healthy. It changes my answer.

Put a healthy Wade from the 27 game win streak in the 13 playoffs and the Heat might not lose a game. But the Heat didn't have that.

You see...this is all built in to an evaluation if you use what actually happened.

So yea, ummmm, it really does matter.
The question isn't what happened, it's who's more talented. The heat were more talented than the 01 Lakers last year.
At this point you're really just ignoring what Im saying and arguing in circles though. It's just true that nobody is going to evaluate a guy off of 15 games, and that's what you're doing. Nobody is going to say Wade was better than Jason Terry.

tpols

10-02-2013, 07:57 PM

Where I'm from most people consider stacked to mean how good the team is, whether its one player or two players, and depth is how many good players that you have

But, usually when a team has more good players, they are also more stacked. Therefore, being a deeper team contributes to that teams "stackness".
Exactly.:oldlol: People would say the boston celtics were stacked.

Did the 2010 Boston Celtics have anyone better than Kobe+Gasol? No. But they had like 4 of the best next 5 players.

DMAVS41

10-02-2013, 07:58 PM

Where I'm from most people consider stacked to mean how good the team is, whether its one player or two players, and depth is how many good players that you have

But, usually when a team has more good players, they are also more stacked. Therefore, being a deeper team contributes to that teams "stackness".

Absolutely depth can contribute to how stacked a team is.

But you have to get into real discussions though. Like...Kobe from 01 vs Wade from 13. You can't just call them equals. Kobe was twice as good. In fact, Kobe in 01 was more valuable than 13 Wade and 13 Bosh in the playoffs combined.

So I think the details really matter.

PickernRoller

10-02-2013, 07:58 PM

People taking Gino seriously again...:oldlol: :oldlol:

-------------------------
So Fish is saying Lebron's a choker? Tell us something new.

DMAVS41

10-02-2013, 08:00 PM

The question isn't what happened, it's who's more talented. The heat were more talented than the 01 Lakers last year.
At this point you're really just ignoring what Im saying and arguing in circles though. It's just true that nobody is going to evaluate a guy off of 15 games, and that's what you're doing. Nobody is going to say Wade was better than Jason Terry.

It's you that is ignoring me. I'm not evaluating a player off of 15 games. I'm comparing the play of these players in the games that were played that matter most...the playoffs.

I'm not using those games to say that Fisher is better than he actually is or that he's better than Bosh. I'm simply saying that 01 Fisher was about as good as 12 and 13 Bosh in the playoffs.

You agree with that for the most part, but don't think it counts because Fisher played better than he normally does.

I do think it matters because that is what actually happened.

DMAVS41

10-02-2013, 08:02 PM

Exactly.:oldlol: People would say the boston celtics were stacked.

Did the 2010 Boston Celtics have anyone better than Kobe+Gasol? No. But they had like 4 of the best next 5 players.

But that is an argument against Fisher's claim in a way then. Because you are saying that you can have different types of stacked teams. You can have top heavy teams that are stacked...and deep teams that are stacked.

Kobe/Shaq and quality role players is a stacked team...it's just not a team that is stacked because of it's depth.

I just have a hard time hearing that a team with peak Shaq and 01/02 Kobe surrounded by quality role players and big shot makers while coached by arguably the GOAT coach...is not a stacked team because of lack of depth (which is probably the single most over-rated thing when it comes to team strength in the playoffs)

CanYouDigIt

10-02-2013, 08:05 PM

F*king DMAVS is gonna make this thread 30+ Pages long :facepalm

SHUT THE FVCK UP!!!

ripthekik

10-02-2013, 10:44 PM

Definitely true in all sense of it.
Lakers had Shaq and Kobe, that's it.
Heat have the best player in the league, wade, bosh, ray allen, battier, and the rest of their crew.

97 bulls

10-02-2013, 11:17 PM

zoom17

10-02-2013, 11:40 PM

Ill never understand why fans of a team fight tooth and nail to say the opposition is better than their favorite team is.

In this thread, we have Heat fans arguing that the Lakers were better and Lakers fans claiming the Heat are better. I just don't get it.

We dont want our teams to be the best anymore? Because in some strange twisted way, it defames the legacy of the teams best player?

Exactly when people say the Heat are stacked to de value Lebron so he is still the best player in the nba and he isn't the only star to have lots of talent on his team.

talamo

10-02-2013, 11:46 PM

Definitely true in all sense of it.
Lakers had Shaq and Kobe, that's it.
Heat have the best player in the league, wade, bosh, ray allen, battier, and the rest of their crew.

Hey bro dont act like the Lakers weren't stacked
http://i.imgur.com/HAfdd2U.jpg

Droid101

10-02-2013, 11:54 PM

So, another thread about Kobe and the Lakers, and "Dmavs" this huge Mav fan has 31 posts, the next highest poster has 12.

DMavs, nobody buys your stupid shit anymore. Stop posting. Please.

Ignored.

eliteballer

10-03-2013, 12:00 AM

unbreakable making sh!t up and posting it without a link...same story move along.

KyleKong

10-03-2013, 12:02 AM

Derrick Fisher salty about 2012.

All Net

10-03-2013, 01:55 AM

chazzy

10-03-2013, 01:58 AM

Did Fisher actually say this? OP is known for fabricating quotes and making false threads

Yao Ming's Foot

10-03-2013, 02:04 AM

[QUOTE=All Net]It

bdreason

10-03-2013, 02:52 AM

Are people really saying Fisher is on the same level as Bosh? :oldlol:

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 02:56 AM

Are people really saying Fisher is on the same level as Bosh? :oldlol:

No.

What I said was that 01 Fisher in the playoffs was as good or better than 13 Bosh in the playoffs. It's not hard people...if Bosh was replaced by a player you've never heard of and played/produced the exact same in the 13 playoffs....

Nobody, I mean nobody, would sit here and act like it's crazy to say Fisher in the 01 playoffs was on his level.

This is getting way too complicated. Both were clear cut third options...both took a similar number of shots...etc.

It's very comparable...

I want to drive this home. Bosh averaged 12/7/2 on 52% TS in the playoffs in 2013. He was inept defensively and was awful in big games. In games 6/7 of both the finals and conference finals;

Bosh was 9 of 38 and averaged 6ppg in those 4 games. He was awful for a star player.

TheMilkyBarKid

10-03-2013, 03:18 AM

Just a testament to how great peak shaq was.

icewill36

10-03-2013, 03:20 AM

miami might be more stacked on paper, but lakers had better balance with a superstar big and wing.

miami has zero size. its amazing they won a title as the worst rebounding team in the league

All Net

10-03-2013, 05:20 AM

Are people really saying Fisher is on the same level as Bosh? :oldlol:
Thats not what Mavs is saying, It

Yao Ming's Foot

10-03-2013, 10:47 AM

No.

What I said was that 01 Fisher in the playoffs was as good or better than 13 Bosh in the playoffs. It's not hard people...if Bosh was replaced by a player you've never heard of and played/produced the exact same in the 13 playoffs....

Nobody, I mean nobody, would sit here and act like it's crazy to say Fisher in the 01 playoffs was on his level.

This is getting way too complicated. Both were clear cut third options...both took a similar number of shots...etc.

It's very comparable...

I want to drive this home. Bosh averaged 12/7/2 on 52% TS in the playoffs in 2013. He was inept defensively and was awful in big games. In games 6/7 of both the finals and conference finals;

Bosh was 9 of 38 and averaged 6ppg in those 4 games. He was awful for a star player.

If how good a player actually is isn't relevant but what their box score numbers are is, why are we even talking about Bosh?

Shouldn't we be talking about Chris Anderson who posted this incredible statline for the entire playoffs 24.9 PER, 81.5 TS%, .309 WS48?

or

Ray Allen and Mike Miller averaging about 16 ppg combined on nearly 60% shooting in the Finals?

Nor does it make sense to claim that Bosh is "inept defensively" without citing the advanced defensive metrics to support such a statement.

LikeABosh

10-03-2013, 11:03 AM

Maybe if healthy. Wade was injured all playoffs. Did people even watch? Lebron had to carry the Heat. Bosh was also just terrible for most of the playoffs.

tpols

10-03-2013, 11:11 AM

Are people really saying Fisher is on the same level as Bosh? :oldlol:
Its absolutely ridiculous..:oldlol: just because Bosh was pushed out onto the perimeter to accomodate Lebron and Wades slashing and largely excluded from the offense in favor of miamis 3 pt shooters doesnt mean his ability wasnt there.

The Heat's chemistry between the big 3 this past playoffs was terrible.. they have all the talent in the world, but havent found a way to max out their abilities yet.. which is why they had series that have went much further than they should have.

Heats team on paper blows spurs away.. same thing with indy. Both those teams play like cohesive machines though so there big advantage in chemistry was almost enough to overcome the giant talent and 'stacked' gap, but fell just short.

tpols

10-03-2013, 11:14 AM

If how good a player actually is isn't relevant but what their box score numbers are is, why are we even talking about Bosh?

Shouldn't we be talking about Chris Anderson who posted this incredible statline for the entire playoffs 24.9 PER, 81.5 TS%, .309 WS48?

or

Ray Allen and Mike Miller averaging about 16 ppg combined on nearly 60% shooting in the Finals?

Nor does it make sense to claim that Bosh is "inept defensively" without citing the advanced defensive metrics to support such a statement.
Exactly.. Bosh's opportunities were cut out of the offense to make way for the 3 pt shooters.. and Chris Anderson was the guy placed in the middle and around the basket, while Bosh was told to stretch the floor and shoot shots he should never be taking.

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 12:02 PM

Exactly.. Bosh's opportunities were cut out of the offense to make way for the 3 pt shooters.. and Chris Anderson was the guy placed in the middle and around the basket, while Bosh was told to stretch the floor and shoot shots he should never be taking.

You can excuse it however you want. The impact simply isn't there. Bosh did nothing for the 13 Heat that Fisher didn't do and more for the 01 Lakers.

That is not how you evaluate teams and or players.

The same could be said for Lamar Odom from 08 through 10 on the Lakers. Someone could sit here and say Odom wasn't playing an optimal role and he went from being a 19/12/4 2nd option on the Lakers to a much diminished role on offense to make way for Kobe and Gasol using up so many of the scoring opportunities.

That doesn't make Odom's impact better than it was...the fact that he could produce more or wasn't in the perfect system. A player does what he does.

So it's a complete non point...

tpols

10-03-2013, 12:14 PM

You can excuse it however you want. The impact simply isn't there. Bosh did nothing for the 13 Heat that Fisher didn't do and more for the 01 Lakers.

The impact wasnt there because it was replaced with something deemed more valuable in the offensive sets that Lebron likes to run. If you put other NBA legends on this heat team instead of Lebron, its very possible that Bosh is used in a totally different way that actually maxes his abilities and gets him involved. He averaged 19/9 as a third option before his role changed.

The same could be said for Lamar Odom from 08 through 10 on the Lakers. Someone could sit here and say Odom wasn't playing an optimal role and he went from being a 19/12/4 2nd option on the Lakers to a much diminished role on offense to make way for Kobe and Gasol using up so many of the scoring opportunities.

Lamar Odom won sixth man of the year with LA.. he had incredible chemistry off the bench with the Lakers.. not comparable to Bosh at all.

Odom=maxed out. Bosh=unused.

As far as their abilities go, Bosh is the slightly better player.. he just is used terribly on the Heat.

Another question for you dude.. Why do you always slant debates with side arguments?

Like... Derek Fisher had good numbers in one playoff run. If you compare 00-02 Fisher to 11-13 Bosh, its a bloodbath. Bosh is far far superior even in a reduced role.

But you cherrypick Boshs worst year and fishers best for the comparison. This is why debates with you go 30+ pages.. you like to pick small things to argue over that when examined under the context given by the OP have little signifigance.

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 12:17 PM

If how good a player actually is isn't relevant but what their box score numbers are is, why are we even talking about Bosh?

Shouldn't we be talking about Chris Anderson who posted this incredible statline for the entire playoffs 24.9 PER, 81.5 TS%, .309 WS48?

or

Ray Allen and Mike Miller averaging about 16 ppg combined on nearly 60% shooting in the Finals?

Nor does it make sense to claim that Bosh is "inept defensively" without citing the advanced defensive metrics to support such a statement.

I did evaluate the supporting casts....but it matters which years you are comparing here. I did 12 vs 01, 02 vs 11, and 00 vs 13. I think those are the most apt comparisons.

The Bosh vs Fisher stuff was to illustrate how idiotic it is listing a big 3 for the Heat in 13 and not the Lakers in 01, for example, is silly.

Yao Ming's Foot

10-03-2013, 12:28 PM

I did evaluate the supporting casts....but it matters which years you are comparing here. I did 12 vs 01, 02 vs 11, and 00 vs 13. I think those are the most apt comparisons.

The Bosh vs Fisher stuff was to illustrate how idiotic it is listing a big 3 for the Heat in 13 and not the Lakers in 01, for example, is silly.

You didn't answer any of my questions.

Who was Chris Anderson for the 3 peat Lakers? Shaq?

Why are you claiming that Bosh was inept defensively without supporting that statement with any advanced defensive metrics?

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 12:29 PM

The impact wasnt there because it was replaced with something deemed more valuable in the offensive sets that Lebron likes to run. If you put other NBA legends on this heat team instead of Lebron, its very possible that Bosh is used in a totally different way that actually maxes his abilities and gets him involved. He averaged 19/9 as a third option before his role changed.

Lamar Odom won sixth man of the year with LA.. he had incredible chemistry off the bench with the Lakers.. not comparable to Bosh at all.

Odom=maxed out. Bosh=unused.

As far as their abilities go, Bosh is the slightly better player.. he just is used terribly on the Heat.

Another question for you dude.. Why do you always slant debates with side arguments?

Like... Derek Fisher had good numbers in one playoff run. If you compare 00-02 Fisher to 11-13 Bosh, its a bloodbath. Bosh is far far superior even in a reduced role.

But you cherrypick Boshs worst year and fishers best for the comparison. This is why debates with you go 30+ pages.. you like to pick small things to argue over that when examined under the context given by the OP have little signifigance.

I didn't cherrypick at all actually. We could do something as simple as Glen Rice in 00 vs Bosh in 12 and 13.

We already talked about 11 and how that team with Bosh was better.

And Odom maxed out? Absurd. He was a 19/12/4 player back to back in the playoffs and then had a diminished role...it's actually very similar to Bosh. That is what is absurd about this....

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 12:32 PM

You didn't answer any of my questions.

Who was Chris Anderson for the 3 peat Lakers? Shaq?

Why are you claiming that Bosh was inept defensively without supporting that statement with any advanced defensive metrics?

I don't know...maybe Rick Fox...

My argument was not that the Lakers were as deep though. We need to compare individual years.

So let me ask you this. Who is Kobe in 01 and 02 in 12 and 13? Wade? Okay, but that gap is huge from 13 to 01 and 02...which is why I did 00 vs 13.

Yao Ming's Foot

10-03-2013, 12:33 PM

I didn't cherrypick at all actually. We could do something as simple as Glen Rice in 00 vs Bosh in 12 and 13.

We already talked about 11 and how that team with Bosh was better.

And Odom maxed out? Absurd. He was a 19/12/4 player back to back in the playoffs and then had a diminished role...it's actually very similar to Bosh. That is what is absurd about this....

19/12/4 against the 7 seconds or less Suns doesn't make you a 19/12/4 player. :facepalm

Yao Ming's Foot

10-03-2013, 12:36 PM

I don't know...maybe Rick Fox...

My argument was not that the Lakers were as deep though. We need to compare individual years.

So let me ask you this. Who is Kobe in 01 and 02 in 12 and 13? Wade? Okay, but that gap is huge from 13 to 01 and 02...which is why I did 00 vs 13.

I'm not seeing how 24.9 PER, 81.5 TS%, .309 WS48 is the same as 12 PER 58% TS, .108 WS48. :confusedshrug:

We are talking actual production here. Not hype.

tpols

10-03-2013, 12:40 PM

And Odom maxed out? Absurd. He was a 19/12/4 player back to back in the playoffs and then had a diminished role...it's actually very similar to Bosh. That is what is absurd about this....
Not just about numbers.. Odom controlled the offense for spurts. He had a defined role he was comfortable in that allowed him to play at his best in all facets of the game. Odom never got pushed out of the paint or bullied. He always gave good effort defending the low post, boxing out, rebounding.. intangible stuff he was better at Bosh at.. mostly because he had a role he was comfortable in and had chemistry with his teammates.

Bosh couldnt bang down low with West or Hibbert when he was being told to camp the three pt line.. his offensive rebounding fell off from previous years and that bled over onto the defensive side of the ball.

Im not going to act like Bosh couldnt hang with players of their caliber(west/Hibbert) when just two years prior he put up an amazing series versus Noah/Boozer/Taj...

Bosh had infinitely more talent and ability than Derek Fisher. Just that Derek Fisher benefitted greatly off the work of Kobe/Shaq who had great chemistry for a while, and Bosh has so far done the opposite with Lebron/Spo.

If someone asked me whether Id rather have Bosh or Derek Fisher on my team Id say Bosh as would everyone else 10 out of 10 times and if you put both in the same scenarios in a hypothetical Bosh would outperform Fisher everytime.

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 12:42 PM

You didn't answer any of my questions.

Who was Chris Anderson for the 3 peat Lakers? Shaq?

Why are you claiming that Bosh was inept defensively without supporting that statement with any advanced defensive metrics?

Well....the Heat were worse on defense with Bosh on the floor.

And lets use your stat...so we can go off your criteria;

Opponent PER vs Bosh;

PF 27.5
C 17.1

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 12:46 PM

Not just about numbers.. Odom controlled the offense for spurts. He had a defined role he was comfortable in that allowed him to play at his best in all facets of the game. Odom never got pushed out of the paint or bullied. He always gave good effort defending the low post, boxing out, rebounding.. intangible stuff he was better at Bosh at.. mostly because he had a role he was comfortable in and had chemistry with his teammates.

Bosh couldnt bang down low with West or Hibbert when he was being told to camp the three pt line.. his offensive rebounding fell off from previous years and that bled over onto the defensive side of the ball.

Im not going to act like Bosh couldnt hang with players of their caliber(west/Hibbert) when just two years prior he put up an amazing series versus Noah/Boozer/Taj...

Bosh had infinitely more talent and ability than Derek Fisher. Just that Derek Fisher benefitted greatly off the work of Kobe/Shaq who had great chemistry for a while, and Bosh has so far done the opposite with Lebron/Spo.

If someone asked me whether Id rather have Bosh or Derek Fisher on my team Id say Bosh as would everyone else 10 out of 10 times and if you put both in the same scenarios in a hypothetical Bosh would outperform Fisher everytime.

You still can't grasp this. I'm not saying Fisher is better than Bosh.

I'm saying that Fisher vs Bosh in 01 vs 13 is debatable on who had the bigger impact on the team.

You can blame Lebron and Wade for that, but the truth is that Bosh was relegated to less minutes because of his inability to play well enough to stay on the floor. Is what it is.

Why do we need hypotheticals? We saw what happened. The difference between a guy like Odom and Bosh...is simply that Odom is better suited to play a 3rd option or 6th man role because he brings more to the table than Bosh does outside of scoring.

Bosh is not a great third option because he doesn't get enough shots and isn't a good rebounder, passer, or defender.

And he's playing a 3rd option role...that is what he is.

Yao Ming's Foot

10-03-2013, 12:48 PM

Well....the Heat were worse on defense with Bosh on the floor.

And lets use your stat...so we can go off your criteria;

Opponent PER vs Bosh;

PF 27.5
C 17.1

Those are regular season numbers. You are the expert on advanced defensive metrics. I'm sure you can find one that you haven't already admitted last night that you don't know what it measures.

Yao Ming's Foot

10-03-2013, 12:50 PM

You still can't grasp this. I'm not saying Fisher is better than Bosh.

I'm saying that Fisher vs Bosh in 01 vs 13 is debatable on who had the bigger impact on the team.

You can blame Lebron and Wade for that, but the truth is that Bosh was relegated to less minutes because of his inability to play well enough to stay on the floor. Is what it is.

Why do we need hypotheticals? We saw what happened. The difference between a guy like Odom and Bosh...is simply that Odom is better suited to play a 3rd option or 6th man role because he brings more to the table than Bosh does outside of scoring.

Bosh is not a great third option because he doesn't get enough shots and isn't a good rebounder, passer, or defender.

And he's playing a 3rd option role...that is what he is.

Yet Chris Anderson's "impact" = Rick Fox. Solid logic. :oldlol:

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 12:50 PM

I'm not seeing how 24.9 PER, 81.5 TS%, .309 WS48 is the same as 12 PER 58% TS, .108 WS48. :confusedshrug:

We are talking actual production here. Not hype.

And if Andersen could do that while playing more than 15.2 mpg...it would matter a lot more.

So you really want to go down this road?

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 12:53 PM

Yet Chris Anderson's "impact" = Rick Fox. Solid logic. :oldlol:

Fox was something like a 10/5/4 player on 57% TS in 01 and 02 in the playoffs. He played 35 minutes per game.

Yes...I think having a solid all around player like Fox on both ends for 20 minutes more a game is about as valuable as what Andersen does in the 15 minutes he played.

And lets get this straight. Wade and Lebron get blamed for the Bosh not producing, but get no credit for Andersen?

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 12:55 PM

Those are regular season numbers. You are the expert on advanced defensive metrics. I'm sure you can find one that you haven't already admitted last night that you don't know what it measures.

I just used your own criteria.

I don't know what Roland Rating is...it seems to be an offshoot of PER, but it's not PER.

Do you know? Because you posted it as PER, but it wasn't...or if it was PER what you posted...your post had bad information.

tpols

10-03-2013, 12:58 PM

Why do we need hypotheticals? We saw what happened. The difference between a guy like Odom and Bosh...is simply that Odom is better suited to play a 3rd option or 6th man role because he brings more to the table than Bosh does outside of scoring.

Bosh is not a great third option because he doesn't get enough shots and isn't a good rebounder, passer, or defender.
.
Again.. none of this is true. Lamar Odom has a total rebound percentage of 14.3% for his career. Chris Bosh has a total rebound percentage of 14.4%.

Lamar Odom is slightly better, but you cant call Odom a good rebounder and Bosh a bad one. When they were both on teams with shit frontcourts(Odom 06-07, Bosh pretty much his entire stint w/ Toronto) they put up the same rebounding percentages and totals.

The difference is Bosh doesnt have Gasol and Bynum clearing out the lane for him.. Heat actually have had no big bodies to put aside him.. And Bosh was told to stretch the floor and stay out of the paint to draw the rim protector away from the rim.

Defense Im not going to act like Bosh is much worse than Odom. They do different things.. Bosh is part of a perimeter heavy TRAP defense where hes forced to come out all the way on pick and rolls and cut off the ball handler while Bron/Wade/Chalmers disrupt passing lanes. His mobility is invaluable for this Heat defense and he was forced to run all over the floor more than Odom was, who typically roamed around the paint.

Despite that Bosh still averaged more blocks than Odom did. He was swatting Tony Parker a handful of times and protecting the rim great in the Finals while doing the trapping defense. His defense is just as good as Odom's.

Yao Ming's Foot

10-03-2013, 12:59 PM

And if Andersen could do that while playing more than 15.2 mpg...it would matter a lot more.

So you really want to go down this road?

Is there any evidence to suggest Anderson couldn't have done it? Seems pretty baseless. As far as I know he had no conditioning issues that forced him to only play 15 mins a game. :confusedshrug:

FLDFSU

10-03-2013, 01:00 PM

How can a stacked team, "the most stacked team in NBA history relative to competition," allow one person to so dominate all their team's most relevant statistical categories?

Points, assists, 2nd best re bounder, minutes, best defender, steals, blocks, plus/minus...

In every category, one single player on this stacked roster, is first or a close second.

The Champions Mavs, Lakers, Celtics, Spurs, and Pistons did not allow one person to so completely own them.

Yao Ming's Foot

10-03-2013, 01:02 PM

I just used your own criteria.

I don't know what Roland Rating is...it seems to be an offshoot of PER, but it's not PER.

Do you know? Because you posted it as PER, but it wasn't...or if it was PER what you posted...your post had bad information.

This would be an example of a misdirect. Its irrelevant. Please try to stay on topic.

What evidence do you have to bring to the table to support that statement that Bosh was "inept defensively" in the playoffs?

Roland Ratings has no information about post season play for 2013.

Yao Ming's Foot

10-03-2013, 01:04 PM

Fox was something like a 10/5/4 player on 57% TS in 01 and 02 in the playoffs. He played 35 minutes per game.

Yes...I think having a solid all around player like Fox on both ends for 20 minutes more a game is about as valuable as what Andersen does in the 15 minutes he played.

And lets get this straight. Wade and Lebron get blamed for the Bosh not producing, but get no credit for Andersen?

You "think" but can you support that statement with evidence?

Once again we are talking about actual production here not hype and conjecture.

Droid101

10-03-2013, 01:06 PM

Laker/Kobe hate thread? Let's take a look at the post count:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-mf6kI9i2P2Q/Uk2j5UdJa6I/AAAAAAAAmG0/krhCEhx58ho/w318-h443-no/Capture.PNG

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 01:07 PM

Again.. none of this is true. Lamar Odom has a total rebound percentage of 14.3% for his career. Chris Bosh has a total rebound percentage of 14.4%.

Lamar Odom is slightly better, but you cant call Odom a good rebounder and Bosh a bad one. When they were both on teams with shit frontcourts(Odom 06-07, Bosh pretty much his entire stint w/ Toronto) they put up the same rebounding percentages and totals.

The difference is Bosh doesnt have Gasol and Bynum clearing out the lane for him.. Heat actually have had no big bodies to put aside him.. And Bosh was told to stretch the floor and stay out of the paint to draw the rim protector away from the rim.

Defense Im not going to act like Bosh is much worse than Odom. They do different things.. Bosh is part of a perimeter heavy TRAP defense where hes forced to come out all the way on pick and rolls and cut off the ball handler while Bron/Wade/Chalmers disrupt passing lanes. His mobility is invaluable for this Heat defense and he was forced to run all over the floor more than Odom was, who typically roamed around the paint.

Despite that Bosh still averaged more blocks than Odom did. He was swatting Tony Parker a handful of times and protecting the rim great in the Finals while doing the trapping defense. His defense is just as good as Odom's.

I could not disagree more about Bosh vs Odom as all around players outside of scoring.

But that isn't the point here. The point is that you compare players on what they actually do.

Your point about Fisher vs Bosh makes no sense. I could say the same thing about Jason Terry vs Bosh. Or Jason Terry vs Wade.

Do we have to ignore reality? Jason Terry in the 2011 playoffs was simply better than Wade or Bosh in the 13 playoffs. You really think we shouldn't be able to account for that because everyone would normally take the infinitely more talented player Bosh and Wade every time?

7_cody

10-03-2013, 01:10 PM

Laker/Kobe hate thread? Let's take a look at the post count:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-mf6kI9i2P2Q/Uk2j5UdJa6I/AAAAAAAAmG0/krhCEhx58ho/w318-h443-no/Capture.PNG

Good lord, 41 posts?

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 01:10 PM

You "think" but can you support that statement with evidence?

Once again we are talking about actual production here not hype and conjecture.

Actual production is actual production.

Here is what Andersen actually produced;

6/4/0

I've never seen a guy playing 15 mpg putting up 6/4/0 get more hype. It's ****ing hilarious really.

Do you understand what PER actually is?

But oh no...lets continue to have to pretend that a guy that averages 6/4/0 is unstoppable.

longtime lurker

10-03-2013, 01:11 PM

Another question for you dude.. Why do you always slant debates with side arguments?

Like... Derek Fisher had good numbers in one playoff run. If you compare 00-02 Fisher to 11-13 Bosh, its a bloodbath. Bosh is far far superior even in a reduced role.

But you cherrypick Boshs worst year and fishers best for the comparison. This is why debates with you go 30+ pages.. you like to pick small things to argue over that when examined under the context given by the OP have little signifigance.

It's because he knows he has zero argument so he decides to focus on one small part and apply it to the whole. He's wasted 10 pages arguing over nothing. This is his schtick he does in every thread related to Kobe.

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 01:11 PM

Good lord, 41 posts?

And if I didn't answer every question posed to me...you'd say I was dodging the questions.

Stop obsessing over me...it's kind of weird dude.

Yao Ming's Foot

10-03-2013, 01:13 PM

Actual production is actual production.

Here is what Andersen actually produced;

6/4/0

I've never seen a guy playing 15 mpg putting up 6/4/0 get more hype. It's ****ing hilarious really.

Do you understand what PER actually is?

But oh no...lets continue to have to pretend that a guy that averages 6/4/0 is unstoppable.

Why would you cling to basic boxscore numbers? I pegged you for a more evolved advanced stat guy. :confusedshrug:

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 01:14 PM

It's because he knows he has zero argument so he decides to focus on one small part and apply it to the whole. He's wasted 10 pages arguing over nothing. This is his schtick he does in every thread related to Kobe.

Are you really this dense. I already went year by year.

Did 00 vs 13
Did 11 vs 01
Did 12 vs 02

The whole Fisher vs Bosh thing arose because of morons listing Bosh as a part of a big 3 in 12 and 13...when he was just not good.

If you don't like the Fisher comparison. Take 00 Rice...another player about as good as 13 Bosh.

You guys can't just make a 12/7/2 52% TS player great because of the name on the back of his jersey. And again...Bosh brings very little to the table outside his offensive production.

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 01:16 PM

Why would you cling to basic boxscore numbers? I pegged you for a more evolved advanced stat guy. :confusedshrug:

If you can't understand the flaw in comparing PER for a player playing 15 mpg...to a player playing 35 mpg...then that is on you

Not my fault.

But I'd like you to remain consistent.

Do you think Andersen in 13 was more valuable than Kobe in the 00 playoffs?

Andersen destroys him in the advanced stats...

longtime lurker

10-03-2013, 01:17 PM

Are you really this dense. I already went year by year.

Did 00 vs 13
Did 11 vs 01
Did 12 vs 02

The whole Fisher vs Bosh thing arose because of morons listing Bosh as a part of a big 3 in 12 and 13...when he was just not good.

If you don't like the Fisher comparison. Take 00 Rice...another player about as good as 13 Bosh.

You guys can't just make a 12/7/2 52% TS player great because of the name on the back of his jersey. And again...Bosh brings very little to the table outside his offensive production.

So over the 3 year stretch who is the better player?

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 01:19 PM

So over the 3 year stretch who is the better player?

Of who? Bosh vs Fisher?

Of course Bosh.

Who is disputing that?

7_cody

10-03-2013, 01:19 PM

And if I didn't answer every question posed to me...you'd say I was dodging the questions.

Stop obsessing over me...it's kind of weird dude.

Don't think so highly of yourself

If someone posted a post count with weanbeaner22133254 having 50 posts while the next highest is 10 posts, I would say the same thing

Also, I bet everyone that saw that post count thought the same thing

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 01:21 PM

Don't think so highly of yourself

If someone posted a post count with weanbeaner22133254 having 50 posts while the next highest is 10 posts, I would say the same thing

Also, I bet everyone that saw that post count thought the same thing

You do understand what ad hominem...right?

I just hope you guys understand that you are falling victim to an established debate flaw....

I'm irrelevant. It's my arguments that should be attacked, but because you struggle to do so. We have to listen to you and others go and and on about an anonymous person on a message board.

It's really strange...but expected from people that can't refute my arguments or support their own.

longtime lurker

10-03-2013, 01:22 PM

Of who? Bosh vs Fisher?

Of course Bosh.

Who is disputing that?

Thanks end thread.

7_cody

10-03-2013, 01:24 PM

You do understand what ad hominem...right?

I just hope you guys understand that you are falling victim to an established debate flaw....

I'm irrelevant. It's my arguments that should be attacked, but because you struggle to do so. We have to listen to you and others go and and on about an anonymous person on a message board.

It's really strange...but expected from people that can't refute my arguments or support their own.

A lot of people stop debating with you because even after being defeated, you keep posting and posting and posting and posting and you never stop

But to you that is "winning"

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 01:28 PM

A lot of people stop debating with you because even after being defeated, you keep posting and posting and posting and posting and you never stop

But to you that is "winning"

I think the problem is with you thinking you have defeated me...you really think an argument has been presented in this thread that has defeated the notion that 12 and 13 Bosh is similar to 01 Fisher in the playoffs?

None has been presented. All we've seen is ad hominem attacks and people talking about cherry picking. Which is so illogical because we have the actual play to go off of.

And everyone continues to dodge the arguments and questions I ask...funny how I answer everything and they answer very little.

7_cody

10-03-2013, 01:30 PM

I think the problem is with you thinking you have defeated me...you really think an argument has been presented in this thread that has defeated the notion that 12 and 13 Bosh is similar to 01 Fisher in the playoffs?

None has been presented. All we've seen is ad hominem attacks and people talking about cherry picking. Which is so illogical because we have the actual play to go off of.

And everyone continues to dodge the arguments and questions I ask...funny how I answer everything and they answer very little.

Uhh, yeah, okay.

Ahem. You're right. Keep posting and you will always win.

Fisher > Bosh :rockon: :rockon: :roll:

Yao Ming's Foot

10-03-2013, 01:33 PM

If you can't understand the flaw in comparing PER for a player playing 15 mpg...to a player playing 35 mpg...then that is on you

Not my fault.

But I'd like you to remain consistent.

Do you think Andersen in 13 was more valuable than Kobe in the 00 playoffs?

Andersen destroys him in the advanced stats...

Please try to stay on topic. We are talking about Chris Anderson and Rick Fox here.

What would you project Chris Anderson WS48 rate would drop to from minutes 15 to 36?

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 01:40 PM

Please try to stay on topic. We are talking about Chris Anderson and Rick Fox here.

What would you project Chris Anderson WS48 rate would drop to from minutes 15 to 36?

Well...in the 09 playoffs he played 22 mpg and had a PER of 18.4 and WS48 rate of .203

Adding another 14 minutes on to that? I have no idea...but his PER and WS48 would be much lower than his 09 production logically.

And my post about Kobe vs Andersen is on topic. Don't you find it strange how you can never stay consistent with your arguments.

Andersen is amazing because of PER and win shares. Yet if someone were to use those arguments comparing two players that actually play a similar amount of minutes and roles as best players on teams...say, I don't know, Dirk vs Kobe in the playoffs...you reject the use of these stats.

And even worse...you don't even know how they work because you think it's valid to compare a player on per minute production playing 15 mpg to a player playing 35 mpg.

But which is it? Are they valid or not?

Dirk 24.7 PER .205 WS/48
Kobe 22.4 PER .157 WS/48

Who is the better player in the playoffs again on your own criteria being used in this thread? And again...the comparison actually makes sense given that Dirk and Kobe actually play a similar amount of minutes. Dirk actually plays more so that makes his per minute production even more impressive, but I won't even make that case here.

So which is it?

I'll gladly concede this entire argument if you concede that Dirk is a better playoff performer than Kobe.

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 02:44 PM

Back to the actual thread.

Take a look at 00 vs 13. Definitely the most fair comparison as it was Shaq/Lebron and then everyone else well below them.

So we can go through player to player (by minutes played);

Shaq vs Lebron?
Kobe vs Wade?
Rice vs Bosh?
Harper vs Chalmers?
Horry vs Allen?
Green vs Cole?
Shaw vs Battier?
Fisher vs Haslem?
Fox vs Andersen?

The Heat are definitely deeper. As expected, but that doesn't make them better or more stacked. Shaq was better than Lebron. Kobe was way better than Wade. I'd say 00 Kobe is probably as valuable as 13 Wade/Bosh put together. And it's not like the Lakers don't have depth here. Rice/Harper/Horry...3 solid veteran role players...with previous championship experience. And a very solid defensive group around Shaq/Kobe...leading to the best defense in the league.

Is anyone here really picking the 13 Heat over the 00 Lakers?

Then we go to I think...01 Lakers vs 12 Heat. I think this is probably the best comparison. Not sure though. But both teams won and won more easily than in 02 and 11 (obviously not a win for the Heat)...again based on mp;

Shaq vs Lebron
Kobe vs Wade
Fisher vs Chalmers
Fox vs Battier
Grant vs Bosh
Horry vs Haslem
Shaw vs Anthony
Lue vs Miller

This one is closer to me, but I feel like again the advantage of Kobe over Wade is big here. And as I said before, I actually thought Fisher was better than Bosh as well. Shaq vs Lebron is closer, but still favors Shaq in my opinion again.

Give me the Lakers.

Now the 11 vs 02 thing.

I think the Heat were more stacked because of Wade and Bosh playing at an elite level, but the 02 Lakers were better than people remember with Horry/Fox/Fisher rounding out a solid 5 players, but after that they didn't have much...and that doesn't make up for the Heat having that 3rd star player.

secund2nun

10-03-2013, 03:02 PM

Stacked means your team has more spread out talent at every position. Your roster more filled out perfectly. The Heat have had role players outside of LBJ/Wade that have stepped up more than Laker role players outside of Kobe/Shaq plus they had an infinitely better third option in Bosh.

Center is by far the most important and underrated position in the game. The heat have a huge hole at center unless Oden can actually play a decent amount of mins which is unlikely so they cannot be more stacked.

secund2nun

10-03-2013, 03:03 PM

miami might be more stacked on paper, but lakers had better balance with a superstar big and wing.

miami has zero size. its amazing they won a title as the worst rebounding team in the league

+1

If Bosh or even Wade was traded for a decent center Miami would be much better than they are now.

Yao Ming's Foot

10-03-2013, 04:21 PM

Well...in the 09 playoffs he played 22 mpg and had a PER of 18.4 and WS48 rate of .203

Adding another 14 minutes on to that? I have no idea...but his PER and WS48 would be much lower than his 09 production logically.

And my post about Kobe vs Andersen is on topic. Don't you find it strange how you can never stay consistent with your arguments.

Andersen is amazing because of PER and win shares. Yet if someone were to use those arguments comparing two players that actually play a similar amount of minutes and roles as best players on teams...say, I don't know, Dirk vs Kobe in the playoffs...you reject the use of these stats.

And even worse...you don't even know how they work because you think it's valid to compare a player on per minute production playing 15 mpg to a player playing 35 mpg.

But which is it? Are they valid or not?

Dirk 24.7 PER .205 WS/48
Kobe 22.4 PER .157 WS/48

Who is the better player in the playoffs again on your own criteria being used in this thread? And again...the comparison actually makes sense given that Dirk and Kobe actually play a similar amount of minutes. Dirk actually plays more so that makes his per minute production even more impressive, but I won't even make that case here.

So which is it?

I'll gladly concede this entire argument if you concede that Dirk is a better playoff performer than Kobe.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are not trolling.

You completely lack any awareness of your selective use of advanced statistics.

PER and Win Shares

Counts for Kobe and Dirk

Doesn't count for Fox vs Anderson

Defensive Adjusted RAPM

Counts for Kobe and Dirk

Doesn't count for Jordan, Fisher, Magic, Bird, Rodman, Bosh

Scoring Efficiency

Counts for Kobe and Dirk

Doesn't count for Anderson, Fox, Team Defenses

I don't stay consistent on my arguments because I'm countering you in every one. I believe in looking at statistics in context. You believe in buying into them in 100% even when its clear you have no idea what they are saying or completely ignoring them when its convenient.

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 04:32 PM

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are not trolling.

You completely lack any awareness of your selective use of advanced statistics.

PER and Win Shares

Counts for Kobe and Dirk

Doesn't count for Fox vs Anderson

Defensive Adjusted RAPM

Counts for Kobe and Dirk

Doesn't count for Jordan, Fisher, Magic, Bird, Rodman, Bosh

Scoring Efficiency

Counts for Kobe and Dirk

Doesn't count for Anderson, Fox, Team Defenses

I don't stay consistent on my arguments because I'm countering you in every one. I believe in looking at statistics in context. You believe in buying into them in 100% even when its clear you have no idea what they are saying or completely ignoring them when its convenient.

You've got it backwards mate.

I've never compared the PER of a guy playing 15mpg vs a guy playing 36 mpg. You did.

The RAPM of course counts...you fail to grasp that the 90s stuff listed on that page is not RAPM. And I never said it's the end all be all. I said that generally you find that someone who has a big defensive impact...it's seen in those stats.

The shooting efficiency stuff. I have no idea what you are implying...so I can't follow.

You've got it completely backwards as usual. You don't use context at all. If you did, you'd know using PER to compare two players in which one plays 20 more minutes per game is a joke. Yet you do it...

It's all context for me. There is no context for you. I don't think Dirk is a better defender than Kobe because of RAPM...in fact, I've repeatedly said Kobe is the better defender. I've simply disputed how much of an impact Kobe's better defense makes.

You go the all or nothing route. That is why you can't stay consistent. I didn't bring up PER one time about Andersen and Fox until you did.

And again...anyone with a brain knows you'd never compare a per minute efficiency rating of players that play extremely different amounts of minutes per game. Is it really that hard to grasp?

You act like I'm doing something crazy comparing Kobe and Dirk in the playoffs. Dirk plays 2 more mpg for his career in the playoffs. A negligible difference that actually favors Kobe on PER in reality...and so your combat that with saying Andersen is better than Fox because of PER? Really?

And I even said I'd concede that if you concede that Dirk is better in the playoffs than Kobe. But you weren't willing to do that...therefore you can't stay consistent.

You just keep putting words in my mouth that I never said.

Yao Ming's Foot

10-03-2013, 04:50 PM

You've got it backwards mate.

I've never compared the PER of a guy playing 15mpg vs a guy playing 36 mpg. You did.

The RAPM of course counts...you fail to grasp that the 90s stuff listed on that page is not RAPM. And I never said it's the end all be all. I said that generally you find that someone who has a big defensive impact...it's seen in those stats.

The shooting efficiency stuff. I have no idea what you are implying...so I can't follow.

You've got it completely backwards as usual. You don't use context at all. If you did, you'd know using PER to compare two players in which one plays 20 more minutes per game is a joke. Yet you do it...

I posted his advanced numbers. His actual "impact" in the playoffs. He was 3rd in win shares on the team for the playoffs. Combine that with 20 mins from nearly anybody and you are looking at the 2nd biggest "impact" player for the entire playoffs. Yet you want to ignore that. I ignore it because he's not a great player and his stats are the byproduct of other's greatness. Kind of like Fisher. You ignore it because its inconvenient.

I fail to grasp it because I don't know why you think "RAPM of the entire 90s" means something other than what it says. Link? I seem to remember that you claimed it was "objective" "evidence". Nothing about context. Frankly I don't remember you using it to describe any other players besides Dirk and Kobe.

You just listed Anderson points and rebound numbers while ignoring his insane efficiency in an attempt to diminish his impact. As a said before selective importance.

I'f I'm countering you in every argument and yet you are positive I'm switching up which statistics are valid and when. What the hell do you think you are doing? If you were consistent, I would be consistent as well by default just to avoid ever being in agreement with you. :roll:

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 05:01 PM

I posted his advanced numbers. His actual "impact" in the playoffs. He was 3rd in win shares on the team for the playoffs. Combine that with 20 mins from nearly anybody and you are looking at the 2nd biggest "impact" player for the entire playoffs. Yet you want to ignore that. I ignore it because he's not a great player and his stats are the byproduct of other's greatness. Kind of like Fisher. You ignore it because its inconvenient.

I fail to grasp it because I don't know why you think "RAPM of the entire 90s" means something other than what it says. Link? I seem to remember that you claimed it was "objective" "evidence". Nothing about context. Frankly I don't remember you using it to describe any other players besides Dirk and Kobe.

You just listed Anderson points and rebound numbers while ignoring his insane efficiency in an attempt to diminish his impact. As a said before selective importance.

I'f I'm countering you in every argument and yet you are positive I'm switching up which statistics are valid and when. What the hell do you think you are doing? If you were consistent, I would be consistent as well by default just to avoid ever being in agreement with you. :roll:

I don't even know where to begin.

The RAPM site used to have a disclaimer saying that the 90's data was not actually RAPM and was something else. I simply don't know what happened to that disclaimer. Again though...you act like that makes objective measures irrelevant. It doesn't.

The whole PER thing is a different story. If you can't grasp why you can't compare two players on PER that play 20 minutes different per game...I give up. Now, if you want to argue that Andersen and another player are more valuable than Fox...that would be a different, but infinitely more valid argument.

Again though. I never said Fox was better than Andersen. You asked me to pick someone from that Lakers team who I thought was about as valuable. And I picked Fox. That is all that happened.

Again you put words into my mouth that were never there. You can list the insane efficiency all you want...we all know it. I didn't list it just to save time from having to look it up.

And now you are changing your argument once again after I posted more evidence that Andersen's PER would go down with more minutes after you said you saw no reason to think that.

You act like I'm arguing the important of Andersen. I'm not. He was clearly more valuable than Bosh..for example. I just don't think he was as good as you do obviously. He might have been the Heat's 4th best player though. Lebron, Wade, and Allen were more valuable in my opinion. But I don't think it's crazy to say he was the third best player.

And if you think that...then you are just making a case for those advanced measures you always argue against.

So why do you think WS, PER, WS48 are all good indicators of the impact of Andersen...but not Kobe and Dirk? That is the real question.

Yao Ming's Foot

10-03-2013, 05:08 PM

I don't even know where to begin.

The RAPM site used to have a disclaimer saying that the 90's data was not actually RAPM and was something else. I simply don't know what happened to that disclaimer. Again though...you act like that makes objective measures irrelevant. It doesn't.

The whole PER thing is a different story. If you can't grasp why you can't compare two players on PER that play 20 minutes different per game...I give up. Now, if you want to argue that Andersen and another player are more valuable than Fox...that would be a different, but infinitely more valid argument.

Again though. I never said Fox was better than Andersen. You asked me to pick someone from that Lakers team who I thought was about as valuable. And I picked Fox. That is all that happened.

Again you put words into my mouth that were never there. You can list the insane efficiency all you want...we all know it. I didn't list it just to save time from having to look it up.

And now you are changing your argument once again after I posted more evidence that Andersen's PER would go down with more minutes after you said you saw no reason to think that.

You act like I'm arguing the important of Andersen. I'm not. He was clearly more valuable than Bosh..for example. I just don't think he was as good as you do obviously. He might have been the Heat's 4th best player though. Lebron, Wade, and Allen were more valuable in my opinion. But I don't think it's crazy to say he was the third best player.

And if you think that...then you are just making a case for those advanced measures you always argue against.

So why do you think WS, PER, WS48 are all good indicators of the impact of Andersen...but not Kobe and Dirk? That is the real question.

Well I have to assume since this phantom disclaimer no longer exists whatever you believe you read before no longer applies. I believe "objective measures" are either relevant or irrelevant for everybody. You can't expect me to buy into your "evidence" if you don't apply to other players as well.

I have already plainly stated that I don't put much credence at all into Anderson's numbers. I was just testing the waters to see if high "impact" low name games for the Heat were treated with the methodology that you used for Bosh and Fisher. Turns out they are not. They are treated like roleplayers. :confusedshrug:

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 05:11 PM

I have already plainly stated that I don't put much credence at all into Anderson's numbers. I was just testing the waters to see if high "impact" low name games for the Heat were treated with the methodology that you used for Bosh and Fisher. Turns out they are not. They are treated like roleplayers. :confusedshrug:

I don't follow. I just got done saying I thought Andersen was more valuable than Bosh.

So I'm actually doing that.

:confusedshrug:

Yao Ming's Foot

10-03-2013, 05:14 PM

I don't follow. I just got done saying I thought Andersen was more valuable than Bosh.

So I'm actually doing that.

:confusedshrug:

Seems like you could have just said yes to my very first post then 3 pages ago.

If how good a player actually is isn't relevant but what their box score numbers are is, why are we even talking about Bosh?

Shouldn't we be talking about Chris Anderson who posted this incredible statline for the entire playoffs 24.9 PER, 81.5 TS%, .309 WS48?

No wonder you lead the world in posts on this topic.

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 05:29 PM

Seems like you could have just said yes to my very first post then 3 pages ago.

No wonder you lead the world in posts on this topic.

I already told you. People were listing it as Lebron/Wade/Bosh vs Shaq/Kobe.

That is the way of sneaking in Bosh as a star...and then talking about the superior depth of the Heat as well. It makes no sense when we evaluate the play of Bosh and Andersen as you say.

But I'm now more interested in what you feel actually is evidence. Because it seems you resorted to using advanced measures and data...albeit poorly...to prove a point.

So let me ask you this;

Would you rather have Jason Terry from the 2011 playoffs or Chris Bosh from the 2013 playoffs on your team? And why...

Yao Ming's Foot

10-03-2013, 05:46 PM

I already told you. People were listing it as Lebron/Wade/Bosh vs Shaq/Kobe.

That is the way of sneaking in Bosh as a star...and then talking about the superior depth of the Heat as well. It makes no sense when we evaluate the play of Bosh and Andersen as you say.

But I'm now more interested in what you feel actually is evidence. Because it seems you resorted to using advanced measures and data...albeit poorly...to prove a point.

So let me ask you this;

Would you rather have Jason Terry from the 2011 playoffs or Chris Bosh from the 2013 playoffs on your team? And why...

Those "people" are like 99% of the basketball world. When they think of supporting cast they think of talent first and foremost. Not boxscores. Lebron/Wade/Bosh/Shaq/Kobe are all all stars and future hall of famers.

Your contextless box score methodology shouldn't be applied to their sane comparisons. They should be applied based on your TRUE IMPACT analysis. Seems like you pegged Bosh as Top 5 at best. Why would you compare the Heat's 5th best player to the Laker's 3rd best player and think you are making a point?

I'd rather have Bosh. I don't need Terry. I already have Wade, Lebron and Ray Allen. Not to mention Miller and Battier have been known to come alive with some absurd 3 pt shooting in the Finals. :confusedshrug:

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 06:26 PM

Those "people" are like 99% of the basketball world. When they think of supporting cast they think of talent first and foremost. Not boxscores. Lebron/Wade/Bosh/Shaq/Kobe are all all stars and future hall of famers.

Your contextless box score methodology shouldn't be applied to their sane comparisons. They should be applied based on your TRUE IMPACT analysis. Seems like you pegged Bosh as Top 5 at best. Why would you compare the Heat's 5th best player to the Laker's 3rd best player and think you are making a point?

I'd rather have Bosh. I don't need Terry. I already have Wade, Lebron and Ray Allen. Not to mention Miller and Battier have been known to come alive with some absurd 3 pt shooting in the Finals. :confusedshrug:

You misunderstand.

Compare them in impact...not role they played. I want to know who you think was the better player between 11 Terry in the playoffs and 13 Bosh in the playoffs. If we can't compare them...then what is the point of ever comparing players?

I don't follow your arguments at all in this sense. Why would you make an argument for the strength of a specific team and not use the specific impact of the players on the team.

It makes no sense at all. On your logic...the 13 Lakers should be judged on the Nash/Kobe/Howard/Gasol/Artest...etc. standard with no context. Because we can't actually evaluate impact and only list names...talent first and foremost...not box scores.

So are the 13 Lakers the biggest underachieving team ever then?

I think you are getting into a terrible place here.

juju151111

10-03-2013, 06:29 PM

You misunderstand.

Compare them in impact...not role they played. I want to know who you think was the better player between 11 Terry in the playoffs and 13 Bosh in the playoffs. If we can't compare them...then what is the point of ever comparing players?

I don't follow your arguments at all in this sense. Why would you make an argument for the strength of a specific team and not use the specific impact of the players on the team.

It makes no sense at all. On your logic...the 13 Lakers should be judged on the Nash/Kobe/Howard/Gasol/Artest...etc. standard with no context. Because we can't actually evaluate impact and only list names...talent first and foremost...not box scores.

So are the 13 Lakers the biggest underachieving team ever then?

I think you are getting into a terrible place here.
He doesn't understand the word context. Trust me

branslowski

10-03-2013, 06:58 PM

A lot of people stop debating with you because even after being defeated, you keep posting and posting and posting and posting and you never stop

But to you that is "winning"

Most accurate post of this thread.:applause:

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 07:08 PM

Most accurate post of this thread.:applause:

Definitely not, but certainly more accurate than your assertions.

But I don't think people stop debating with me for that reason. I think for the most part they can't simply refute my arguments.

Take you for example....calling 01 Fisher a bum, but not calling 13 Bosh a bum. It fails the logic test.

Then when you get destroyed...you switch the subject to stacked front line talk.

Then get destroyed there yet again and leave.

I still have never, not once, ever seen someone talk about the front line of a team and not include the best player of the front line...it makes no sense.

And I really still feel like you can't see your stupidity.

Here is what people always say about 2010;

Kobe had a stacked front line.

You then say;

What? How is Odom/Bynum/Artest stacked?

We say;

What about Gasol?

You say;

I already told you that the Lakers were Kobe/Gasol and bums...

Dude. If you can't honestly see the flaw in that line of thinking...you are even dumber than I thought.

Yao Ming's Foot

10-03-2013, 07:12 PM

Compare them in impact...not role they played. I want to know who you think was the better player between 11 Terry in the playoffs and 13 Bosh in the playoffs. If we can't compare them...then what is the point of ever comparing players?

Bosh is the better player. Terry was relied on to do what he does best on more by his team. Stick Terry on the Heat and he would be relied on even less than Bosh.

I don't follow your arguments at all in this sense. Why would you make an argument for the strength of a specific team and not use the specific impact of the players on the team.

You were only comparing 3 players. If you are looking at "impact". Then compare the 3 most "impactful" players from each side. :confusedshrug:

It makes no sense at all. On your logic...the 13 Lakers should be judged on the Nash/Kobe/Howard/Gasol/Artest...etc. standard with no context. Because we can't actually evaluate impact and only list names...talent first and foremost...not box scores.

So are the 13 Lakers the biggest underachieving team ever then?

Irrelevant strawman argument.

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 07:14 PM

He doesn't understand the word context. Trust me

Yep.

Create a thread calling the 13 Lakers the most underachieving team ever and Yao will not stand for it.

He'll argue it. But why? If a player can only be evaluated on talent and not how they actually play. Then why is a team of Nash/Kobe/Artest/Gasol/Howard not an epic failure of historic proportions?

We all know why. Nash is old/hurt. Gasol played out of position and was relegated to nothing by his coach. Howard wasn't right most of the year and doesn't fit in well with the system...etc.

Could go on and on. But on his view...we can't distinguish between the Nash on the Lakers and the Nash the year before. Just like we can't distinguish between Bosh in 11 and Bosh in 12/13...or Wade in 13 vs 11.

So when people say Shaq/Kobe vs Lebron/Wade/Bosh

I say;

Which years? Which versions?

And they continue to say I'm a box score lover...what?

If we can't say that 11 Wade was better than 13 Wade...then what is the ****ing point of having a brain?

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 07:17 PM

Bosh is the better player. Terry was relied on to do what he does best on more by his team. Stick Terry on the Heat and he would be relied on even less than Bosh.

You were only comparing 3 players. If you are looking at "impact". Then compare the 3 most "impactful" players from each side. :confusedshrug:

Irrelevant strawman argument.

Wow....just wow.

I really invite you to use your brain at some point. Please use it.

I said don't talk about them in roles...just evaluate what they did. But see how you can't do that. You have to artificially credit Bosh for doing things he didn't do.

On that logic you simply can't compare teams and or players in different roles...etc.

So saying that the Heat were more stacked means nothing on your view of the basketball world. You basically back yourself into a corner and just argue that we can't compare what actually happens because everyone is in different circumstances.

Yao Ming's Foot

10-03-2013, 07:18 PM

Yep.

Create a thread calling the 13 Lakers the most underachieving team ever and Yao will not stand for it.

He'll argue it. But why? If a player can only be evaluated on talent and not how they actually play. Then why is a team of Nash/Kobe/Artest/Gasol/Howard not an epic failure of historic proportions?

We all know why. Nash is old/hurt. Gasol played out of position and was relegated to nothing by his coach. Howard wasn't right most of the year and doesn't fit in well with the system...etc.

Could go on and on. But on his view...we can't distinguish between the Nash on the Lakers and the Nash the year before. Just like we can't distinguish between Bosh in 11 and Bosh in 12/13...or Wade in 13 vs 11.

So when people say Shaq/Kobe vs Lebron/Wade/Bosh

I say;

Which years? Which versions?

And they continue to say I'm a box score lover...what?

If we can't say that 11 Wade was better than 13 Wade...then what is the ****ing point of having a brain?

I'm right here boss. The only thing annoying about you surely isn't your intellect its that you are verbose and boring as hell.

branslowski

10-03-2013, 07:19 PM

Definitely not, but certainly more accurate than your assertions.

But I don't think people stop debating with me for that reason. I think for the most part they can't simply refute my arguments.

Take you for example....calling 01 Fisher a bum, but not calling 13 Bosh a bum. It fails the logic test.

Then when you get destroyed...you switch the subject to stacked front line talk.

Then get destroyed there yet again and leave.

I still have never, not once, ever seen someone talk about the front line of a team and not include the best player of the front line...it makes no sense.

And I really still feel like you can't see your stupidity.

Here is what people always say about 2010;

Kobe had a stacked front line.

You then say;

What? How is Odom/Bynum/Artest stacked?

We say;

What about Gasol?

You say;

I already told you that the Lakers were Kobe/Gasol and bums...

Dude. If you can't honestly see the flaw in that line of thinking...you are even dumber than I thought.

Nice job trying to bait me into an argument you already lost.:oldlol:

Kobe didn't have a stacked Frontline, he had a stacked Gasol. That's a fact, the numbers prove it. My comment stating the Lakers were Kobe/Gasol and role players is spot on and the numbers back it up.

If your saying Gasol on the Frontline makes the whole line stacked when it actually doesn't, then you might aswell say Heats Frontline was stacked just because LeBron is stacked.

My n!gga, facts is facts. Just because I stopped posting doesn't mean you won, especially wen you already lost. It means I have a life and you live on baiting and nitpicking topics within topics to continue trolling and racking up ur own personal Kobe thread post count to a 3 to 1 next highest poster ratio.

No one but You and fellow trolls (TonyM, secondnum, juju) believe in your bullshit.

I give you props, you are a good troll.

Yao Ming's Foot

10-03-2013, 07:21 PM

Wow....just wow.

I really invite you to use your brain at some point. Please use it.

I said don't talk about them in roles...just evaluate what they did. But see how you can't do that. You have to artificially credit Bosh for doing things he didn't do.

On that logic you simply can't compare teams and or players in different roles...etc.

So saying that the Heat were more stacked means nothing on your view of the basketball world. You basically back yourself into a corner and just argue that we can't compare what actually happens because everyone is in different circumstances.

So many words to say so little. Do you have a single point you would like to make or are you going to stick with long drawn out strawman arguments?

You like to parrot the word ad hominem every 3rd page but don't realize your common debating style is just to make up the other guys position and attempt to debate that. Realize every time you get the urge to type "Based on your logic" or "so what you are really saying is" you are just wasting everyone's time with nonsense.

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 07:31 PM

Nice job trying to bait me into an argument you already lost.:oldlol:

Kobe didn't have a stacked Frontline, he had a stacked Gasol. That's a fact, the numbers prove it. My comment stating the Lakers were Kobe/Gasol and role players is spot on and the numbers back it up.

If your saying Gasol on the Frontline makes the whole line stacked when it actually doesn't, then you might aswell say Heats Frontline was stacked just because LeBron is stacked.

My n!gga, facts is facts. Just because I stopped posting doesn't mean you won, especially wen you already lost. It means I have a life and you live on baiting and nitpicking topics within topics to continue trolling and racking up ur own personal Kobe thread post count to a 3 to 1 next highest poster ratio.

No one but You and fellow trolls (TonyM, secondnum, juju) believe in your bullshit.

I give you props, you are a good troll.

A stacked Gasol?

No...the sum of the parts is what made it stacked. That includes Gasol. You don't remove the most important character of a book and then evaluate it without the character.

Makes absolutely no sense.

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 07:32 PM

So many words to say so little. Do you have a single point you would like to make or are you going to stick with long drawn out strawman arguments?

You like to parrot the word ad hominem every 3rd page but don't realize your common debating style is just to make up the other guys position and attempt to debate that. Realize every time you get the urge to type "Based on your logic" or "so what you are really saying is" you are just wasting everyone's time with nonsense.

Do you have a single point?

You said;

"Bosh is the better player"

Which Bosh? The one that shot 9 of 38 in the 4 most important games of the year? The one that averaged 12/7/2 on 52% TS?

That Bosh is not better than 11 Terry.

So I have no idea what you mean when you say Bosh is better. Which Bosh?

Once something happens...we can evaluate what actually happened.

Yao Ming's Foot

10-03-2013, 07:36 PM

Do you have a single point?

Yeah. You already admitted to it a while ago. Bosh vs Fisher isn't the comparison you should make for 3rd best player if your only looking at "impact" without any regard for context. :confusedshrug:

I made the mistake of thinking you would listen to logic and reason and got sucked into more irrelevant off topic chatter after that.

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 07:39 PM

Yeah. You already admitted to it a while ago. Bosh vs Fisher isn't the comparison you should make for 3rd best player if your only looking at "impact" without any regard for context. :confusedshrug:

But I never did that.

I simply asserted that Bosh was similar in impact to Fisher. That is all.

If you want to compare Fisher to Ray Allen...by all means. I'd take 01 Fisher over 13 Ray Allen.

Or am I not allowed to do that on your basketball view? Because Ray Allen is the better player.

Yao Ming's Foot

10-03-2013, 07:41 PM

But I never did that.

I simply asserted that Bosh was similar in impact to Fisher. That is all.

If you want to compare Fisher to Ray Allen...by all means. I'd take 01 Fisher over 13 Ray Allen.

Or am I not allowed to do that on your basketball view? Because Ray Allen is the better player.

That's another strawman argument. You are allowed to do anything. I'm not the rule of free speech on the internet.

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 07:44 PM

That's another strawman argument. You are allowed to do anything. I'm not the rule of free speech on the internet.

You know what I mean.

Lets try this.

Who was the 3rd best player on the 13 Heat in the playoffs and why?

branslowski

10-03-2013, 07:44 PM

A stacked Gasol?

No...the sum of the parts is what made it stacked. That includes Gasol. You don't remove the most important character of a book and then evaluate it without the character.

Makes absolutely no sense.

Jesus f*cking christ.:facepalm

Do you read and understand post? Are you just acting oblivious to clear points and responding with reused trash to bait me into a already factually proved point I made just for another mindless debate ?

You just trollin now ain't you?...:coleman:

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 07:46 PM

Jesus f*cking christ.:facepalm

Do you read and understand post? Are you just acting oblivious to clear points and responding with reused trash to bait me into a already factually proved point I made just for another mindless debate ?

You just trollin now ain't you?...:coleman:

Dude. If someone says;

Kobe has a stacked front line.

And you say;

Nah...he has a stacked Gasol.

You are agreeing with them. And they are agreeing with you.

If you include Gasol in the frontline...it's stacked.

If you don't include him in it...it's not.

The issue then becomes...why do you take issue with someone calling a frontline of Gasol/Odom/Bynum/Artest stacked? When you clearly agree with it.

GASOL IS PART OF THE ****ING FRONTLINE NO MATTER WHAT BULLSHIT SEMANTICS GAME YOU WANT TO PLAY

branslowski

10-03-2013, 08:03 PM

Dude. If someone says;

Kobe has a stacked front line.

And you say;

Nah...he has a stacked Gasol.

You are agreeing with them. And they are agreeing with you.

If you include Gasol in the frontline...it's stacked.

If you don't include him in it...it's not.

The issue then becomes...why do you take issue with someone calling a frontline of Gasol/Odom/Bynum/Artest stacked? When you clearly agree with it.

GASOL IS PART OF THE ****ING FRONTLINE NO MATTER WHAT BULLSHIT SEMANTICS GAME YOU WANT TO PLAY

:facepalm

If someone says Kobe had a great 2nd option, we both agree. If someone says our team was stacked or whole frontline was stacked, then they are factually wrong since 3/4 players on the frontline produced subpar.

Frontline, Odom, Bynum, Artest puts up subpar numbers during title runs, only Gasol is consistant. Fact. So I say It's Gasol and role players, Fact. THIS DOES NOT MAKE THE WHOLE FRONTLINE STACKED.

Break it down to ur level if you still don't understand:

Whole Frontline being stacked= 100% of Frontline played great which constitutes Stacked label.

Reality only 1/4 players played great on Frontline, meaning just 1 player is great not whole Frontline.

How is whole Frontline stacked when 75% of it played subpar during playoff title runs?

By ur logic. Heat Frontline was stacked during last season playoffs because only LeBron played great and you can't remove him from it.:facepalm

97 bulls

10-03-2013, 09:35 PM

I really dont see how its even remotely logical to compare based on one season or series a small sample size of games. Fisher shot that well because teams defense centered around stopping Shaq and Kobe. And more importantly, Fisher didnt have that reputation of being a shooter. Im sure if those teams knew what we know now, and after the series, Fisher doesnt shoot that high % cuz they would respect his range.

Bosh has been relegated to being a jumpshooter in the Heats offense. Thats not his fault. Plus he played injured. This is just one of the many things that aggravate me about the posters in this forum. Why do players get penalized for playing hurt or accepting their role on their team?

The only way Id pick Derrick Fisher over Chris Bosh is if Bosh had a broken leg. Or my bigs were Olajuwan and Duncan and I didnt have a PG.

Smoke117

10-03-2013, 09:53 PM

Whether they were more stacked our not, the League was weak as hell in the late 90s and early 2000s, so Derek Fisher shouldn't be talking any shit. Blazers were only team to give the Lakers any competition in 2000 and they ****ed up in game 7. The kings got screwed in 2002 and were the only team that gave them competition. I don't really think any team was stacked. Both teams had two best players in the league and the Lakers in particular had the most dominant player in the league by far. Jordan my be the be the best of all time, but he didn't affect games like Shaq.

Hard to call the Heat stacked when Wade was injured during the playoffs and Bosh averaged 12 and 6. Not exactly stellar performances by your two 2nd best players. Scottie was injured pretty much during their entire 2nd threepeat in the playoffs, but he was still a monster defensively.

DMAVS41

10-03-2013, 10:16 PM

:facepalm

If someone says Kobe had a great 2nd option, we both agree. If someone says our team was stacked or whole frontline was stacked, then they are factually wrong since 3/4 players on the frontline produced subpar.

Frontline, Odom, Bynum, Artest puts up subpar numbers during title runs, only Gasol is consistant. Fact. So I say It's Gasol and role players, Fact. THIS DOES NOT MAKE THE WHOLE FRONTLINE STACKED.

Break it down to ur level if you still don't understand:

Whole Frontline being stacked= 100% of Frontline played great which constitutes Stacked label.

Reality only 1/4 players played great on Frontline, meaning just 1 player is great not whole Frontline.

How is whole Frontline stacked when 75% of it played subpar during playoff title runs?

By ur logic. Heat Frontline was stacked during last season playoffs because only LeBron played great and you can't remove him from it.:facepalm

No. That would be like saying the 03 Spurs weren't a great team deserving of winning the title.

Because it was just Duncan and subpar players (on your criteria)

Yet we all know the 03 Spurs were a great team. Why? Mainly because of Duncan.

You would never evaluate the Spurs as a whole by removing Duncan...that would not make sense. He's the player that makes the whole thing work.

You don't need every player of something to be great in order for the result to be great. And I think you of course under-rate Odom and Bynum in 2010, but that is a different argument.

It's honestly one of the single dumbest uses of reason and logic I've ever seen.

So how would you describe Gasol/Odom/Bynum/Artest as a frontline unit? Don't talk about them individually...describe the unit as a whole. Where would you rank that unit in the league?

sportjames23

10-04-2013, 02:05 AM

[QUOTE=JimmyMcAdocious]If someone interviewed Sam Jones, he would probably say, "Champion Heat by far more stacked than '65-66 Boston Celtics"

If someone interviewed Bill Walton, he would probably say, "Champion Heat by far more stacked than '85-86 Boston Celtics"

If someone interviewed Toni Kukoc, he would probably say, "Champion Heat by far more stacked than '95

longtime lurker

10-04-2013, 02:41 AM

DMAVS41

10-04-2013, 12:09 PM

It's one guy that's pushing the Fisher agenda. You notice no one else in the thread actually agrees with him but he's still thinking he's "winning"

It's not an "agenda"...it's about as close to a fact as you can get that Fisher was at least on par in 01 with Bosh in 13 in the playoffs.

They both played the role of third option. They both got around 10 shots per game...etc.

Fisher

13/4/3 62% TS

Bosh

12/7/2 52% TS

And then I already showed what Bosh did in the 4 biggest games of the year combined. 24 total points on 9 of 38 shooting. That is 6 ppg on less than 25% shooting.

I'm not saying Fisher is better than Bosh. I'm saying in the roles they played on their team...Fisher was just as valuable or more valuable than Bosh.

But I don't see the relevance of how good a player would be in a different role than the one he actually plays on a team when talking about the strength of a team.

Do you really not see the flaw? If we are comparing the 13 Heat to the 01 Lakers for example. Why would we talk about Bosh in a different role than the one he played on that specific team? It does not make sense. And it makes even less sense to not talk about how he actually played in the specific games we are talking about.

The fact that Wade/Bosh/Lebron aren't the best fit chemistry wise impacts the strength or stacked nature of the team when evaluating it.

It's really not hard. Prime Wade is better than prime Ray Allen. And, at the very least, Bosh and Marc Gasol are about equals as players.

Most people would say that Lebron/Wade/Bosh is more stacked because of the names.

Give me Lebron/Allen/Gasol...quite easily too. Does that mean that Ray Allen is better than Wade? Nope...

If we can't think about this stuff beyond the "name" of a player...then what is the point of ever comparing teams or players?

tpols

10-04-2013, 12:23 PM

DMAVS41

10-04-2013, 12:51 PM

Its not just about stats in tiny sample sizes of games. Its about the tools the team had to work with to start. You have a soon to be top 5 GOAT.. a top 15 GOAT.. a 20/10 perrenial all star HOF power forward.. GOAT three point shooter and the most explosive role player shooters in the league. You have scrappy vets in anderson and haslem to compliment frontcourt players in bron and bosh.

Miami had a greater assortment of tools to work with. They just didnt perform quite as well as they should have in terms of dominance. Thats on them.. Lakers were the opposite.. they maxed out and had more dominant runs. They would have gladly taken chalmers over fisher.. or ray allen over rick fox.. or bosh over horry/old rice. And thats the point

This is the exact problem.

The year they actually had the versions of Lebron/Wade/Bosh you are talking about...they didn't have the depth you are talking about.

And I must repeat. I've already said that the 11 team was more stacked than it's comparison...and you can check that out above.

But you are making my point for me. You are labeling Wade a top 15 GOAT...which Wade? Because Wade didn't get to be a top player of all time by playing like he did in 13. Not to mention he was hurt.

So you just want to evaluate the 13 Heat with everyone in their prime? Makes no sense.

And think about the flaw of your post. You want to compare Fisher to Chalmers...etc.

How about Kobe to Wade and Shaq to Lebron?

Your argument is simply one of depth...and even then it would depend on the years you are comparing.

CanYouDigIt

10-04-2013, 01:02 PM

Didn't I tell DMAVS to stop posting in this thread? :mad:

CanYouDigIt

10-04-2013, 01:02 PM

F*king DMAVS is gonna make this thread 30+ Pages long :facepalm

SHUT THE FVCK UP!!!
F*king DMAVS is gonna make this thread 30+ Pages long :facepalm

SHUT THE FVCK UP!!!

tpols

10-04-2013, 05:23 PM

This is the exact problem.

But you are making my point for me. You are labeling Wade a top 15 GOAT...which Wade? Because Wade didn't get to be a top player of all time by playing like he did in 13. Not to mention he was hurt.
Wade didnt need to go all out in 2013.. The Heat faced 40 something win teams for the first three rounds and were pretty much on cruise control til the Finals. Pacers slapped them in the face, but Lebron was playing so well and taking up so many possessions that Wade look disinterested.. and publicly admitted that him and Bosh needed more burn. Heat were always in control in the East.

And then in the Finals Wade came through when they needed him most everytime.. all of a sudden he was moving better.. his midrange became automatic.. wonder how he turned it all around so quick. Oh yea.. because the spurs had Lebron scared to shoot and he was asked to do much more.

13 Wade was like 2000 Kobe.. They both rode dominant forces through weak competition til they came to a true test.. Portland game 7 for LA and the middle of the Spurs series for MIA, and at that point when the dominant forces could no longer sustain, they took over and saved the day.

So you just want to evaluate the 13 Heat with everyone in their prime? Makes no sense.

I dont believe I ever said this.. prime was never used mentioned or inferred.. you seem to be making my arguments up AKA strawmans.

Your argument is simply one of depth...and even then it would depend on the years you are comparing.
Of course because what Fisher meant was that the Heat have more filled out rosters not dependant on just two persons' play. Very simple to see what he meant.. you just like to argue for the sake of it.

DMAVS41

10-04-2013, 06:13 PM

Wade didnt need to go all out in 2013.. The Heat faced 40 something win teams for the first three rounds and were pretty much on cruise control til the Finals. Pacers slapped them in the face, but Lebron was playing so well and taking up so many possessions that Wade look disinterested.. and publicly admitted that him and Bosh needed more burn. Heat were always in control in the East.

And then in the Finals Wade came through when they needed him most everytime.. all of a sudden he was moving better.. his midrange became automatic.. wonder how he turned it all around so quick. Oh yea.. because the spurs had Lebron scared to shoot and he was asked to do much more.

13 Wade was like 2000 Kobe.. They both rode dominant forces through weak competition til they came to a true test.. Portland game 7 for LA and the middle of the Spurs series for MIA, and at that point when the dominant forces could no longer sustain, they took over and saved the day.

I dont believe I ever said this.. prime was never used mentioned or inferred.. you seem to be making my arguments up AKA strawmans.

Of course because what Fisher meant was that the Heat have more filled out rosters not dependant on just two persons' play. Very simple to see what he meant.. you just like to argue for the sake of it.

00 Kobe was about as valuable as Bosh and Wade in the 13 playoffs combined in my opinion.

So we'll just have to agree to disagree if you think Wade in the playoffs was as good as 00 Kobe.

How do I know what Fisher meant? I never even saw the quote. Teams can be stacked because of depth...and teams can be stacked because of star power. Teams with a bunch of stars might actually not be stacked as a team because of chemistry issues.

All those issues you talk about Wade/Bosh having is evidence for the Heat not being as stacked because the style of Lebron/Wade/Bosh put together is far from optimal.

That is all built in to whether or not a team is stacked.

I've repeatedly said the 13 Heat were deeper than those Lakers teams. But depth and stacked are not the same thing.

tpols

10-04-2013, 06:47 PM

00 Kobe was about as valuable as Bosh and Wade in the 13 playoffs combined in my opinion.

So we'll just have to agree to disagree if you think Wade in the playoffs was as good as 00 Kobe.

How do I know what Fisher meant? I never even saw the quote. Teams can be stacked because of depth...and teams can be stacked because of star power. Teams with a bunch of stars might actually not be stacked as a team because of chemistry issues.

All those issues you talk about Wade/Bosh having is evidence for the Heat not being as stacked because the style of Lebron/Wade/Bosh put together is far from optimal.

That is all built in to whether or not a team is stacked.

I've repeatedly said the 13 Heat were deeper than those Lakers teams. But depth and stacked are not the same thing.
By your definition of 'stacked' there is no such thing as an upset. Any team that was a gigantic underdog that won.. was simply more stacked than the favorite because they played better.:oldlol:

Not how it works. If jennings/thornton/Gallinari/Scola/Asik put up better numbers than Paul/Kobe/Lebron/Bosh/Howard and sweep them out of the playoffs it doesnt mean they were more stacked.. it means they overachieved and the other team likely choked/played well below their abilities.

Stacked is a term used to describe the components that make up the team.. not an after assessment of how they performed.

DMAVS41

10-05-2013, 08:43 AM

By your definition of 'stacked' there is no such thing as an upset. Any team that was a gigantic underdog that won.. was simply more stacked than the favorite because they played better.:oldlol:

Not how it works. If jennings/thornton/Gallinari/Scola/Asik put up better numbers than Paul/Kobe/Lebron/Bosh/Howard and sweep them out of the playoffs it doesnt mean they were more stacked.. it means they overachieved and the other team likely choked/played well below their abilities.

Stacked is a term used to describe the components that make up the team.. not an after assessment of how they performed.

This isn't a case of that at all. I've repeatedly said the 13 Heat were stacked in relation to the competition. You know this. That isn't the question here. It's which team is more stacked...

You have to distinguish this stuff. The 01 Lakers, for example, were more stacked than the 00 Lakers because Kobe was a much better player in 01.

If we can't look at what happened and talk about the differences like that...then I don't know why ever talk about basketball.

You are just going off names and not what the player actually did or even was capable of doing. 13 Wade is not 11 Wade. It's just a brute fact.

Ignoring that when comparing teams seems absurd to me.

Bandito

10-05-2013, 11:00 AM

Rose'sACL

10-05-2013, 11:15 AM

I don't know what DMavs41 is whining about the Heat are way more stacked compared to ttheir competition than the 09 Lakers were.

Lakers had a big hole with their bench (aside from Odom) and the PG position. The Heat only had a hole on Center, and that only on offense, which they never needed from their Center anyways...
are you kidding me? bosh was getting murdered. they had to double team Hilbert to stop him a little bit. they need someone who can guard big guys. Bosh gets manhandled by bigs.

Bandito

10-05-2013, 11:19 AM

are you kidding me? bosh was getting murdered. they had to double team Hilbert to stop him a little bit. they need someone who can guard big guys. Bosh gets manhandled by bigs.
They were doing ok with Joel Anthony there, and Bosh can guard most centers today. Hibbert is a legit 7 footer , not a lot of players that can guard that.

francesco totti

10-05-2013, 12:15 PM

aj1987

10-05-2013, 12:27 PM

They were doing ok with Joel Anthony there, and Bosh can guard most centers today. Hibbert is a legit 7 footer , not a lot of players that can guard that.
I'm guessing that you haven't watched any Heat games.

Suguru101

10-05-2013, 01:43 PM

200 posts and nobody has bothered to verify if Fisher actually said that... i googled it and there isn't a source.

You guys got so friggin' played it's not even funny.

Bandito

10-05-2013, 01:54 PM

I'm guessing that you haven't watched any Heat games.
Yes I have and I never said he was a dominant center but he was capable of guarding more than 20 team's starting centers.

aj1987

10-05-2013, 02:23 PM

Yes I have and I never said he was a dominant center but he was capable of guarding more than 20 team's starting centers.
Then you must not remember how they played. Bosh straight up got dominated by the centers in the Playoffs. The games which actually matter. Those other 10 teams usually don't make the ECSF, ECF or the Finals. Hibbert and Duncan destroyed Bosh in the post. Hibbert went off for 22/10 on 56% against the Heat. Against the Knicks? 13/10 on 47%. 15/9 on 48% against the Hawks.
Duncan averaged 18/9 in the previous 3 rounds, on 46%. Against the Heat?19/12 on 49%.

Bosh: 13/8 on 51% in the first two rounds. While those are not good numbers, he didn't have to score much and grabbed a bunch of defensive rebounds (he was always going to be bad getting ORB in the current system. 11/7 on 51% against the Pacers and the Spurs.

Fiasco

10-05-2013, 02:28 PM

200 posts and nobody has bothered to verify if Fisher actually said that... i googled it and there isn't a source.

You guys got so friggin' played it's not even funny.

Welcome to another classic ISH discussion fueled purely on fiction.

HoopsFanNumero1

10-05-2013, 02:40 PM

OP should be banned for making up quotes.

dr.hee

10-05-2013, 02:41 PM

200 posts and nobody has bothered to verify if Fisher actually said that... i googled it and there isn't a source.

You guys got so friggin' played it's not even funny.

:oldlol:

Bandito

10-05-2013, 02:50 PM

Then you must not remember how they played. Bosh straight up got dominated by the centers in the Playoffs. The games which actually matter. Those other 10 teams usually don't make the ECSF, ECF or the Finals. Hibbert and Duncan destroyed Bosh in the post. Hibbert went off for 22/10 on 56% against the Heat. Against the Knicks? 13/10 on 47%. 15/9 on 48% against the Hawks.
Duncan averaged 18/9 in the previous 3 rounds, on 46%. Against the Heat?19/12 on 49%.

Bosh: 13/8 on 51% in the first two rounds. While those are not good numbers, he didn't have to score much and grabbed a bunch of defensive rebounds (he was always going to be bad getting ORB in the current system. 11/7 on 51% against the Pacers and the Spurs.
Hibbert and Duncan is going to destroy anyone anyways, it is not like it is Bosh's fault. He's not a center nor is he dominant inside. He is a serviceable center. Not the best though. MJ's Bulls center after 96 were bad too and they still won.

aj1987

10-05-2013, 03:10 PM

Hibbert and Duncan is going to destroy anyone anyways, it is not like it is Bosh's fault. He's not a center nor is he dominant inside. He is a serviceable center. Not the best though. MJ's Bulls center after 96 were bad too and they still won.
Look at their numbers in the previous rounds. Or better yet watch the games. Duncan looked like he was in his prime against the Heat and Hibbert looked like Shaq-Lite.

Again, Duncan in the first 3 rounds: 18/9 on 46%
Duncan against the Heat: 19/12 on 49%

A rise of 1 PPG and 3 RPG. Also, a 3% rise in his FG%.

Hibbert in the first 2 rounds : 14/10 on 47%
Against the Heat: 22/11 on 56%

An 8 PPG and 1 RPG rise, along with 9% rise in the FG%.

aj1987

10-05-2013, 03:12 PM

200 posts and nobody has bothered to verify if Fisher actually said that... i googled it and there isn't a source.

You guys got so friggin' played it's not even funny.
Damn! Got trolled HARD!

BoutPractice

10-05-2013, 03:14 PM

the idea that last year spurs is old version of spurs is in alot of ways wrong.
the 2000 - 2002 spurs was completly different team. parker, ginobili, leonard, dany green, boris diaw, splitter were all not present during that era. in parker case it was his rookie year in 2001 - 2002 where he average like 9 points in his first season.Ginobili first season was 2002 - 2003 , and again he was far from ready product yet too ( 7 POINTs per game in his first year ).

the only one common is duncan and popovich.
Yeah, funny how everything is always saying (they've been saying that for a decade now) that the Spurs are 'too old', as if they'd kept the exact same players from 1999 to 2013. If I remember correctly, the Spurs haven't been the oldest team in the league for a while now. What they're really saying is 'Duncan is getting older by one year each year', which, I suppose, is correct.

longtime lurker

10-05-2013, 06:40 PM

It's not an "agenda"...it's about as close to a fact as you can get that Fisher was at least on par in 01 with Bosh in 13 in the playoffs.

They both played the role of third option. They both got around 10 shots per game...etc.

Fisher

13/4/3 62% TS

Bosh

12/7/2 52% TS

And then I already showed what Bosh did in the 4 biggest games of the year combined. 24 total points on 9 of 38 shooting. That is 6 ppg on less than 25% shooting.

I'm not saying Fisher is better than Bosh. I'm saying in the roles they played on their team...Fisher was just as valuable or more valuable than Bosh.

But I don't see the relevance of how good a player would be in a different role than the one he actually plays on a team when talking about the strength of a team.

Do you really not see the flaw? If we are comparing the 13 Heat to the 01 Lakers for example. Why would we talk about Bosh in a different role than the one he played on that specific team? It does not make sense. And it makes even less sense to not talk about how he actually played in the specific games we are talking about.

The fact that Wade/Bosh/Lebron aren't the best fit chemistry wise impacts the strength or stacked nature of the team when evaluating it.

It's really not hard. Prime Wade is better than prime Ray Allen. And, at the very least, Bosh and Marc Gasol are about equals as players.

Most people would say that Lebron/Wade/Bosh is more stacked because of the names.

Give me Lebron/Allen/Gasol...quite easily too. Does that mean that Ray Allen is better than Wade? Nope...

If we can't think about this stuff beyond the "name" of a player...then what is the point of ever comparing teams or players?

You just can't post TS% and numbers because like always stats don't always tell the full story. Fisher was on a ridiculous shooting streak and was in a position that maxmized his skills. While Bosh is in a position that doesn't maximize his talent. Do you think that Bosh all of a sudden forgot how to play basketball? No he's been put in a position that won't maximize his skills. Even with that being said you're not taking into account the defensive presence that Bosh as a big man over Fisher. And of course names matter that's the whole point of the big 3 teaming up.

DMAVS41

10-05-2013, 07:05 PM

You just can't post TS% and numbers because like always stats don't always tell the full story. Fisher was on a ridiculous shooting streak and was in a position that maxmized his skills. While Bosh is in a position that doesn't maximize his talent. Do you think that Bosh all of a sudden forgot how to play basketball? No he's been put in a position that won't maximize his skills. Even with that being said you're not taking into account the defensive presence that Bosh as a big man over Fisher. And of course names matter that's the whole point of the big 3 teaming up.

Do you realize that this just makes my points for me?

That Bosh wasn't really worth much because of the role he played...it doesn't matter the reasons why.

The chemistry and fit of a team factor into how stacked a team is. I mean...a team of Iverson, Kobe, Melo, Love, and Dirk is a stacked team from an individual standpoint, but put them up against a team that has lesser individual talents that fit better...and that team gets smoked.

Both teams would be stacked, just in different ways.

If you have poor chemistry between the top 3 players on a team...the question remains...how stacked is a team with poor chemistry?

You guys act like we not only can't evaluate how good these players actually are in certain years...nor actually talk about the chemistry and fit of players on these teams.

It just doesn't make sense.

Again. My argument is not that the Heat aren't stacked. It's that the Lakers were just as stacked if not more some years.