so its looking like the US will default on it's debt...

[ThemBombs]

...and the general consensus is Second Great Depression.


"A default would be unprecedented and has the potential to be catastrophic: credit markets could freeze, the value of the dollar could plummet, U.S. interest rates could skyrocket, the negative spillovers could reverberate around the world, and there might be a financial crisis and recession that could echo the events of 2008 or worse,"


"If they seriously default on the debt, what we're really talking about is a depression,"


"If the US does default, that will make the Lehman Brothers bankruptcy look like a cakewalk"

:( what are you guys going to do to prepare for this?

[christian1923]

Do I still get my financial aid for school?! :confusedshrug:

[Draz]

I don't even get financial aid..

[lefthook00]

Doubt it, a commotion is always made when it's time to raise the debt ceiling. It will be raised again and everyone will move on...

[OJ SIMPSON 2.0]

Have some faith in our government you loon :facepalm

[bdreason]

Once the Federal Reserve feels like it has sufficiently milked all the assets it can from the United States, it will pull the plug... and the result will be 10x's worse than the Great Depression. Complete anarchy will break out in some States, while other States secede from the Union. People aren't going to hunker down, work harder, and help one another... not in these days and times.

What's scary is the choice really has nothing to do with the U.S. Government. The Federal Reserve is holding all the cards, and can play them however they want to... and the Federal Reserve isn't owned or operated by Americans; it's controlled mostly by England. Americans may have physically taken America from Great Britain, but the Brits found a way to take it back, economically.

The reality is, the United States passed a breaking point a couple years ago. The current Federal debt is more than the combined assets of the United States. That means if we all gathered every asset we have, and tried to sell it off to completely pay off our debt... we would come up short. It's similar to being upside-down on a mortgage. Even if you sell your home, you're still going to owe the bank money... and now you're also homeless.

[Lakers Legend#32]

On the plus side, it means the end of the Republican Party.

[iamgine]

Once the Federal Reserve feels like it has sufficiently milked all the assets it can from the United States, it will pull the plug... and the result will be 10x's worse than the Great Depression. Complete anarchy will break out in some States, while other States secede from the Union. People aren't going to hunker down, work harder, and help one another... not in these days and times.

What's scary is the choice really has nothing to do with the U.S. Government. The Federal Reserve is holding all the cards, and can play them however they want to... and the Federal Reserve isn't owned or operated by Americans; it's controlled mostly by England. Americans may have physically taken America from Great Britain, but the Brits found a way to take it back, economically.

The reality is, the United States passed a breaking point a couple years ago. The current Federal debt is more than the combined assets of the United States. That means if we all gathered every asset we have, and tried to sell it off to completely pay off our debt... we would come up short. It's similar to being upside-down on a mortgage. Even if you sell your home, you're still going to owe the bank money... and now you're also homeless.
It might have happened before but will the US government be powerless against economy? With all the influence US have, can't they cut a deal that will bully their way back to stabilization? I think I read somewhere about for every dollar the US owe, the US is owed 70 cents.

Also, if the US Dollars plummet, what currency will increase?

[flipogb]

Do I still get my financial aid for school?! :confusedshrug:
you should be good , for this school year anyway

[JtotheIzzo]

The financial institutions will threaten to pull their support to all congress-people and both parties (the average congressman spends near 30 hours a week fund raising and can nary survive the loss of the biggest donors) if they don't settle, and things will get settled.

Big banks run the US and they won't stand for this.

[niko]

Once the Federal Reserve feels like it has sufficiently milked all the assets it can from the United States, it will pull the plug... and the result will be 10x's worse than the Great Depression. Complete anarchy will break out in some States, while other States secede from the Union. People aren't going to hunker down, work harder, and help one another... not in these days and times.

What's scary is the choice really has nothing to do with the U.S. Government. The Federal Reserve is holding all the cards, and can play them however they want to... and the Federal Reserve isn't owned or operated by Americans; it's controlled mostly by England. Americans may have physically taken America from Great Britain, but the Brits found a way to take it back, economically.

The reality is, the United States passed a breaking point a couple years ago. The current Federal debt is more than the combined assets of the United States. That means if we all gathered every asset we have, and tried to sell it off to completely pay off our debt... we would come up short. It's similar to being upside-down on a mortgage. Even if you sell your home, you're still going to owe the bank money... and now you're also homeless.

Um, no. None of this is happening. The US is not going to be destroyed by the Federal Reserve bank. Serious? They'll make a deal. This reminds me of the panic this board has every six months about North Korea. No one in the game wants the endgame to be their destruction.

On purpose, congress is going to destroy their own lives. I don't think so.

[East_Stone_Ya]

[QUOTE]Failure by the world

[DCL]

hell no. don't let the mainstream media totally play some of you like a gullible sheep.

the US ain't defaulting. it is not an option. they would like to scare you into thinking it is while holding america hostage, but defaulting is simply not a motherf--king option. obama knows it. congress knows it. everybody knows it. it would be nuclear suicide. the potential loss of this catastrophic event trumps a thousand times whatever agenda/ objective they may have in the stalemate. our government has its head so far up its ass, but even they are not this insane.

right now, this is all theater. they will come up with some grand bilateral rescue plan in the last minute and pat themselves on the back in how they worked together to save america. they've played this bullshit game so many times before. they need to be more creative.

if this was poker, you would go "ALL IN MOTHAFUGGA" on this bluff. an asteroid would have to slam onto earth and blow up a hole in washington before they decide to default.

they will find a solution right before the deadline....

and then you can expect these clowns to perform the same theatrical bullshit act again when the next debt ceiling is scheduled.

[Jailblazers7]

Looks like it is time to mint the trillion dollar platinum coin.

[HomieWeMajor]

Why doesn't Obama threaten to blow up a country unless they give him money ? Playground maneuvers.

[ZenMaster]

Um, no. None of this is happening. The US is not going to be destroyed by the Federal Reserve bank. Serious? They'll make a deal. This reminds me of the panic this board has every six months about North Korea. No one in the game wants the endgame to be their destruction.

On purpose, congress is going to destroy their own lives. I don't think so.

You think you can just keep pushing problems ahead?

"They'll make a deal"

You think you can just increase your debt forever?

From the outside looking in Americans seems very very naive when it comes to this matter. Like the problem isn't that your countrys economy is waaay out of control creating a deficit every minute of every day, but instead it's all about your government comming to agreement of owing more is ok and as long as that happens eveything will be fine.

But what about 10, 20 and 30 years from now?

[Nick Young]

Congratulations to the Obamanation:applause:

[DCL]

But what about 10, 20 and 30 years from now?

$100 trillion debt. :oldlol:

[KevinNYC]

Once the Federal Reserve feels like it has sufficiently milked all the assets it can from the United States, it will pull the plug... and the result will be 10x's worse than the Great Depression. Complete anarchy will break out in some States, while other States secede from the Union. People aren't going to hunker down, work harder, and help one another... not in these days and times.

What's scary is the choice really has nothing to do with the U.S. Government. The Federal Reserve is holding all the cards, and can play them however they want to... and the Federal Reserve isn't owned or operated by Americans; it's controlled mostly by England. Americans may have physically taken America from Great Britain, but the Brits found a way to take it back, economically.

The reality is, the United States passed a breaking point a couple years ago. The current Federal debt is more than the combined assets of the United States. That means if we all gathered every asset we have, and tried to sell it off to completely pay off our debt... we would come up short. It's similar to being upside-down on a mortgage. Even if you sell your home, you're still going to owe the bank money... and now you're also homeless.

Are you being sarcastic here? Because this whole post is complete nonsense.


Once the Federal Reserve feels like it has sufficiently milked all the assets it can from the United States,
All profits from the FED go to the US Treasury.

In addition the FED is holding about 2 trillion dollars of US Treasuries (the thing we may default on) so a US default is not in the interest of the FED.


and the Federal Reserve isn't owned or operated by Americans; it's controlled mostly by England. Utter bullshit.

There are 12 federal reserve banks and their membership is banks within their region. So the Federal Reserve is owned by regional member banks throughout America. One third of America's banks are member banks.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Federal_Reserve_Districts_Map.svg/400px-Federal_Reserve_Districts_Map.svg.png

In this way, the needs of the banking system of the entire country is represented. So how would the collapse of the American economy serve their interests?



The reality is, the United States passed a breaking point a couple years ago. The current Federal debt is more than the combined assets of the United States. That means if we all gathered every asset we have, and tried to sell it off to completely pay off our debt...
Also utter bullshit. Just the value of US real estate is a lot greater than our current debt. It also presumes that for some reason we need to pay the debt in full all at once. Why? Is Canada going to break our knees if can't keep up with the vig?

[KevinNYC]

You think you can just keep pushing problems ahead?
You think you can just increase your debt forever?
From the outside looking in Americans seems very very naive when it comes to this matter. Like the problem isn't that your countrys economy is waaay out of control creating a deficit every minute of every day, but instead it's all about your government comming to agreement of owing more is ok and as long as that happens eveything will be fine.

But what about 10, 20 and 30 years from now?

The way you look at a countries debt to see if it's a problem is to look at its debt to GDP ratio. America has a giant debt, but it also has a giant GDP. In fact, if you look at debt to GDP ration, there are 34 countries worse off than the US. We also have some advantages other countries don't have. We have a sovereign currency. If the dollar does go down, our exports will go up and things like travel to the US will increase. This is one of the problems Europe is having. Spain can't deflate the Euro to make Spanish goods/travel to Spain more attractive to the world, because countries like Germany don't want to change the Euro.

If you grow your GDP, your ratio becomes smaller and servicing your debt becomes routine. The US is not really in a crisis. For most of the last century the UK has had a much higher ratio of debt to GDP than the US does right now and they haven't collapsed have they?

The other thing is it is very cheap for the US to borrow. This is what the politicians are messing with. Even if we don't default, if we just get close, it can affect the cost of US borrowing which will affect the rates consumers and business pay as well, credit card and mortgage interest rates will go up.

So just the Republicans making this threat....even if they don't go through with it, can have consequences.

[Godzuki]

You think you can just keep pushing problems ahead?

"They'll make a deal"

You think you can just increase your debt forever?

From the outside looking in Americans seems very very naive when it comes to this matter. Like the problem isn't that your countrys economy is waaay out of control creating a deficit every minute of every day, but instead it's all about your government comming to agreement of owing more is ok and as long as that happens eveything will be fine.

But what about 10, 20 and 30 years from now?


10, 20, 30 years is a lot of time to address that issue and dwindle it down. the problem is the immediacy some people pretend we MUST address it when our economy is still getting out of a recession, and hasn't really recovered yet. its like as soon as signs of our economy being on the upswing show, the deficit watchdogs want to break that momentum pretending the deficit is so much more pressing of a issue. its just not smart to hurt the economy recovering because we have extremely paranoid people in our country that have been doom and glooming the deficit like the country is going to collapse every other month, and like we have to pay it all off now at the sacrifice of economic recovery. Its just common sense to allow our economy to recover and then start addressing it then.

if we go under due to our deficit the world is going under, and at that point we might as well change the whole economic system. i mean there is no real precedent for that with a country like us, and some people talk like they know we don't have much time left and we're on the verge of collapse. its really like word of mouth doom and gloom out there where people doomsday and it gets more and more exaggerated from one mouth to another. i can't even cite all of the doom and gloom talk here from posters from years and years ago talking economic collapse any moments from the deficit, and even this idea our economic recovery since OBama took office was all some smokescreen with so much BS they make up. some people just love to conspiracy theory everything, whether its the end of the world or our country, especially here. ISH is like internet conspiracy theorists central.

[ZenMaster]

The way you look at a countries debt to see if it's a problem is to look at its debt to GDP ratio. America has a giant debt, but it also has a giant GDP. In fact, if you look at debt to GDP ration, there are 34 countries worse off than the US. We also have some advantages other countries don't have. We have a sovereign currency. If the dollar does go down, our exports will go up and things like travel to the US will increase. This is one of the problems Europe is having. Spain can't deflate the Euro to make Spanish goods/travel to Spain more attractive to the world, because countries like Germany don't want to change the Euro.

If you grow your GDP, your ratio becomes smaller and servicing your debt becomes routine. The US is not really in a crisis. For most of the last century the UK has had a much higher ratio of debt to GDP than the US does right now and they haven't collapsed have they?

The other thing is it is very cheap for the US to borrow. This is what the politicians are messing with. Even if we don't default, if we just get close, it can affect the cost of US borrowing which will affect the rates consumers and business pay as well, credit card and mortgage interest rates will go up.

So just the Republicans making this threat....even if they don't go through with it, can have consequences.

There are 196 countries in the world, and the biggest economy is only the 35th healthiest.

A big economy takes a long time to turn around, and because of your massive disparity in money between the people(400 families have 50% of your countrys money) a negative gdp to debt ratio affects a lot more people than for example in the UK. There should be far less working poor in the biggest economy in the world. People working full time jobs and still are very poor is a scham against humanity, it only happens so a few people can skin the cream and live in extreme wealth. It's a scham when it goes on in China and it is when it's in the US, and yes I know poor people aren't as bad off in the US as they are in China but it still keeps a majority of the population relatively unhappy.

You make many claims as to why it's not so bad, but the US owe more than ever before and there's no real turnaround in sight.

What is the US going to do to get the gdp to debt ratio in a positive before a majority of the population live their lives in so bad condition that they will riot and loot as a last resort?

What is going to happen in the next 10, 20, 30 years that makes you think your country will be better off than today?

Half the country is on food stamps, a city just went bankrupt and part of the government just shut down because the different parties work so much against each other than for the country. But no, the US is not in a crisis.

[-p.tiddy-]

You think you can just increase your debt forever?

yes, I do

I can remember these EXACT same talks from my parents in the 1980s...and back then the national debt was like $2 Trillion

we can increase debt and inflation FOREVER...that is how the system is designed to work yet every single year people flip out about it

20 years from now the debt will be at $50 Trill making this current debt look like nothing, and $2 today will just be worth $1 then but who cares it's all relative...and people will STILL be overly concerned

[Nick Young]

Obama took the greatest nation in the world and dragged it in to the shit. What a horrible horrible president, how can anyone still respect this waster?

[longhornfan1234]

Obama took the greatest nation in the world and dragged it in to the shit. What a horrible horrible president, how can anyone still respect this waster?


Obama is a below average president, but he did not start this. Bush 2 and Bubba's policies contributing to this current mess. It's not like Obama came in office with a surplus.

[Godzuki]

There are 196 countries in the world, and the biggest economy is only the 35th healthiest.

A big economy takes a long time to turn around, and because of your massive disparity in money between the people(400 families have 50% of your countrys money) a negative gdp to debt ratio affects a lot more people than for example in the UK. There should be far less working poor in the biggest economy in the world. People working full time jobs and still are very poor is a scham against humanity, it only happens so a few people can skin the cream and live in extreme wealth. It's a scham when it goes on in China and it is when it's in the US, and yes I know poor people aren't as bad off in the US as they are in China but it still keeps a majority of the population relatively unhappy.

You make many claims as to why it's not so bad, but the US owe more than ever before and there's no real turnaround in sight.

What is the US going to do to get the gdp to debt ratio in a positive before a majority of the population live their lives in so bad condition that they will riot and loot as a last resort?

What is going to happen in the next 10, 20, 30 years that makes you think your country will be better off than today?

Half the country is on food stamps, a city just went bankrupt and part of the government just shut down because the different parties work so much against each other than for the country. But no, the US is not in a crisis.


you make it sound like we haven't been recovering at all from a near Depression like economic state. we just had a HUGE financial meltdown, and we are out of that pit we were just in. Its not going to be roses and sunshine over night, whats important is we were recovering. our housing market is/was getting better, the financial sector has been on the upswing with stocks constantly rising, and in we have shown recovery on all aspects from near rock bottom a few years ago.

this idea the deficit is so much more pressing is ridiculous when its been at a figure nobody could even count to for years, and its the same when we add more now which is a drop in the bucket in the big picture of that total. definitely not at the sacrifice of our economic recover. its completely backwards to pretend it takes precedence over economic recovery unless people think we're going under in a few months or a few years. Our government also brings in a ton of money so gradually paying that off to get it to a reasonable state once programs/entitlements are cut down the line is over-exaggerated in the pessimism that we can't or never will.

[Godzuki]

Obama is a below average president, but he did not start this. Bush 2 and Bubba's policies contributing to this current mess. It's not like Obama came in office with a surplus.


i don't get you foreign people here who hate Obama. you guys rail against us getting involved in wars which seems to be your biggest issue with the US, when its the Republicans who are always pushing us to get involved militarily in every situation abroad, much more than the Dem's.

whatever tho.

[niko]

You think you can just keep pushing problems ahead?

"They'll make a deal"

You think you can just increase your debt forever?

From the outside looking in Americans seems very very naive when it comes to this matter. Like the problem isn't that your countrys economy is waaay out of control creating a deficit every minute of every day, but instead it's all about your government comming to agreement of owing more is ok and as long as that happens eveything will be fine.

But what about 10, 20 and 30 years from now?

Yes, they will come to an agreement and it will be fine and they can address reducing the debt then. You don't destroy the world economy because you feel a pressing need all of a sudden to address the issue.

People saying we will have default now and the world will descend into chaos are being melodramatic and silly.

[ZenMaster]

Yes, they will come to an agreement and it will be fine and they can address reducing the debt then. You don't destroy the world economy because you feel a pressing need all of a sudden to address the issue.

People saying we will have default now and the world will descend into chaos are being melodramatic and silly.

You're right, that's why I asked 20-30 years from now.

[DCL]

You're right, that's why I asked 20-30 years from now.


50 years ago, a gas pumper at a gas station could earn enough income to buy a home, pay the mortgage, and support his whole family. those days are over and never coming back.

as recent as 20 years ago, it was still very realistic for a student to work part-time and pay for his own college education and have no debt by the time he or she graduated.

today in america, we require two parents to be working to just have a standard living. and if they have kids who wish to go to college, they better be prepared to accept to take on a fat load of debt. some kids will be 80,000 in debt before they even take on their first real job. that's not imagination. that's already reality right now. then they gotta take 10 years to pay off that loan, while acquiring more debt through credit cards or car loans. and when they decide to buy a house, they will likely enter 30 more years of debt through mortgage. if they're smart, they'll invest during the prime of their careers, but if not, they better have saved enough for retirement, but here's the problem, about 50% of people 30yo+ americans today have jack shit in their retirement fund. they can't fund the retirement nest egg because they have debt up to their eye balls. they work full time but have very little savings because everything is going to paying off debt or taxes. many adults are living paycheck to paycheck, and when they can't buy something with their paycheck, they resort to credit cards, which banks love to dump into their mailboxes. so by the time they retire, they will have nothing but social security (if it still exists) to live on. they will leave the universe like how they entered it -- with nothing, zilch, nada, zero.

sooo... what's it going to be like 30 years from now? do you really want to depress so many people around here??? lol

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

Lol.

Time to adopt the minimalist lifestyle.

Bout to throw away the games and the TV and take on a 2nd job too.

[Jailblazers7]

Obama should just wipe out the debt ceiling as a political maneuver by minting the trillion dollar platinum coin. An Ender Wiggins mentality is needed here. He needs to win this debt ceiling battle and all the other ones after it.

[bdreason]

So how would the collapse of the American economy serve their interests?






Your faith in the Federal Reserve, or your belief that it serves the American people is misguided. Of course the Federal Reserve doesn't want the U.S. economy to collapse (yet), because that's where it makes its money. However, at the end of the day, the Federal Reserve is a privately owned bank/business, that is concerned only with the bottom line. Once we reach a point where the Federal Reserve no longer sees the U.S. as a reliable debtor, they will do what makes sense from a business perspective, regardless of what happens to the American people.

The Fed has already shown its willingness to place profit over the American people when it almost single handedly caused the Great Depression. For those of you who aren't aware of what caused the Great Depression, it went something like this: The Fed progressively raised interest rates during a recession (which it caused) which led to a Stock Market crash. The ensuing panic caused a run on the dollar (inflation). The Fed then raised interest rates (restricting cash flow) causing massive bank failures across the Country. The Fed then refused to increase the money supply, leading to even more catastrophic bank failures, and an almost complete collapse of the U.S. banking system.

The Federal Reserve had the power to completely avoid the Great Depression, and they chose to do nothing. The notion that they wouldn't allow the U.S. economy to collapse again is nonsense. In fact, the bubble the Fed is building now is substantially larger than the one they built before the Great Depression. Although our understanding of economics is obviously better than it was in the 1920's, that doesn't change the fact that the Fed is holding all the cards, and a couple shifts in policy regarding interest rates and/or money supply could plunge the U.S. into another depression. The idea that the Fed is just going to continue to expand the money supply and keep interest rates low forever is beyond optimistic, and borderline delusional.

[niko]

The federal reserve is not going to send the world spiraling into chaos (everyone's economies are intertwined, you don't get to see the US spiral solo, everyone would go). Do you really believe this is what is going to happen in the next two weeks? The Federal Reserve decides to be completely inflexible and destroy the economy?

Remember if you are a creditor, once you slam the debtor, you don't get your money back necessarily.

Not a chance in hell this isn't worked out somehow in the next few weeks. I think some of you just like the more morbid scenarios.

[-p.tiddy-]

I don't like Great Depression comparisons...that was 100 years ago

today's US economy isn't structured the same at all...it is entangled with every other countries' economies...it's global

[bdreason]

Where did I say anything about this happening in the next two weeks?


Eventually it will happen. There is no other conclusion to this story. When it happens, and how bad the ensuing fall out will be, is still to be determined.

[DonD13]

just came across this (wikipedia)

http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m517/DonD133/Public_debt_percent_gdp_world_map_zps25b91500.png

it's the public debt in percent of the gdb
you hear so much about the USA owing crazy money, I would not have thought that Canada does worse

Eastern Europe is certainly not a role model

still kind of crazy. I calculated that every US citizen (all ages) owes about 50k

but as for a state, I think is good to be in dept in the long run. but probably not as much. I don't now.

[DCL]

just came across this (wikipedia)

http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m517/DonD133/Public_debt_percent_gdp_world_map_zps25b91500.png

it's the public debt in percent of the gdb
you hear so much about the USA owing crazy money, I would not have thought that Canada does worse

Eastern Europe is certainly not a role model

still kind of crazy. I calculated that every US citizen (all ages) owes about 50k

but as for a state, I think is good to be in dept in the long run. but probably not as much. I don't now.


this chart is soooo dated. wikipedia doesn't keep up too well.

Debt is at nearly $17 trillion
GDP is slightly below $16 trillion


so current debt/gdp in US is well over 100%

color on the map would be a lot darker

[DonD13]

:lol my bad it's 2007
I didn't thought that article would be so out dated, I'm sorry, I tried, I'm out

[Godzuki]

Your faith in the Federal Reserve, or your belief that it serves the American people is misguided. Of course the Federal Reserve doesn't want the U.S. economy to collapse (yet), because that's where it makes its money. However, at the end of the day, the Federal Reserve is a privately owned bank/business, that is concerned only with the bottom line. Once we reach a point where the Federal Reserve no longer sees the U.S. as a reliable debtor, they will do what makes sense from a business perspective, regardless of what happens to the American people.

The Fed has already shown its willingness to place profit over the American people when it almost single handedly caused the Great Depression. For those of you who aren't aware of what caused the Great Depression, it went something like this: The Fed progressively raised interest rates during a recession (which it caused) which led to a Stock Market crash. The ensuing panic caused a run on the dollar (inflation). The Fed then raised interest rates (restricting cash flow) causing massive bank failures across the Country. The Fed then refused to increase the money supply, leading to even more catastrophic bank failures, and an almost complete collapse of the U.S. banking system.

The Federal Reserve had the power to completely avoid the Great Depression, and they chose to do nothing. The notion that they wouldn't allow the U.S. economy to collapse again is nonsense. In fact, the bubble the Fed is building now is substantially larger than the one they built before the Great Depression. Although our understanding of economics is obviously better than it was in the 1920's, that doesn't change the fact that the Fed is holding all the cards, and a couple shifts in policy regarding interest rates and/or money supply could plunge the U.S. into another depression. The idea that the Fed is just going to continue to expand the money supply and keep interest rates low forever is beyond optimistic, and borderline delusional.

the Fed deserves a lot of credit for our economic recovery from the low point of the recession to today. of course interest rates will rise but not when we're recovering and they want people to spend. people will still spend when the economy is better off and interest rates are higher, but there will already be more money in peoples pocket at that point. i don't really get why people think they're so evil.

[niko]

Where did I say anything about this happening in the next two weeks?


Eventually it will happen. There is no other conclusion to this story. When it happens, and how bad the ensuing fall out will be, is still to be determined.
Eventually the sun will burn out and all life will cease too.

[MavsSuperFan]

we are not going to default wall street doesn't want us to default.

[MavsSuperFan]

this chart is soooo dated. wikipedia doesn't keep up too well.

Debt is at nearly $17 trillion
GDP is slightly below $16 trillion


so current debt/gdp in US is well over 100%

color on the map would be a lot darker
Japan's debt is more than double its GDP.

[KevinNYC]

this chart is soooo dated. wikipedia doesn't keep up too well.

Debt is at nearly $17 trillion
GDP is slightly below $16 trillion


so current debt/gdp in US is well over 100%

color on the map would be a lot darker

The chart is for debt held by the public. Which is currently 73% of GDP as of September. So that chart looks accurate.

There's a lot of the debt that is held by government.

[DCL]

The chart is for debt held by the public. Which is currently 73% of GDP as of September. So that chart looks accurate.

There's a lot of the debt that is held by government.

you're wrong.

that chart is for government debt.

you can tell it's government debt by looking around the other countries. it's quite obvious.

besides, if you still can't figure that it's government debt. it SAYS it's government debt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt-to-GDP_ratio

[KevinNYC]

you're wrong.
that chart is for government debt.
you can tell it's government debt by looking around the other countries. it's quite obvious.
besides, if you still can't figure that it's government debt. it SAYS it's government debt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt-to-GDP_ratio

Yes, it's government debt. But it's showing the percentage of government debt held by the public, meaning these are not private debts. Held by the public means the debt is owed to them. So in both cases I was discussing government debt.

You confusing the issuer of debt and the holders of debt. Of the total US debt, about a quarter is held by various parts of the US government and about three quarters is held by the public, including foreign countries. There's a reason economists split this out. (http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=3238)
Economists Agree Debt Held by the Public Is Proper Target
The United States faces a serious long-term fiscal problem. Large current deficits, which are the unavoidable result of the deep recession and necessary efforts to shore up the financial system and pull the country out of the downturn, are not the problem. But future deficits are projected to spiral out of control, eventually reaching unsustainable levels. Unless changes are made in current policies, deficits and debt will grow in coming decades to levels that most economists agree will have significant negative effects on the economy.
To deal with this challenge in a sensible way, it is important to focus on the true nature of the problem and how to measure it.
Most economists agree that the debt held by the public is what really affects the economy. As the Congressional Budget Office stated in its June 2009 report on the long-term budget outlook, “Long-term projections of federal debt held by the public, measured relative to the size of the economy, provide useful yardsticks for assessing the sustainability of fiscal policies.” In contrast, “gross debt . . . is not useful for assessing how the Treasury’s operations affect the economy.” [1]
A number of organizations and individuals concerned about the effect of rising deficits and debt on the budget and the economy — the Congressional Budget Office, the Government Accountability Office, the Committee on the Fiscal Future of the United States of the National Research Council and the National Academy of Public Administration, the Peterson-Pew Commission on Budget Reform, fiscal experts Alan Auerbach and William Gale, as well as the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities — have produced detailed assessments of the long-term fiscal problem facing the United States. [2] Every one of those studies focuses on debt held by the public. Every one concludes that federal debt will grow under current policies to levels that will be harmful to the economy. The decision to focus those studies on debt held by the public clearly does not arise from an effort by the authors to minimize the long-term problem the nation faces.
Debt held by the public is important because it reflects the extent to which the government goes into private credit markets to borrow. Such borrowing draws on private national saving and international saving and therefore competes with investment in the nongovernmental sector (for factories and equipment, research and development, housing, and so forth). Large increases in such borrowing can also push up interest rates and increase the future interest payments the federal government must make to foreign lenders, which reduces Americans’ income. By contrast, intragovernmental debt (the other component of the gross debt) has no such effects because it is simply money the federal government owes (and pays interest on) to itself.

[MavsSuperFan]

the us will raise the debt ceiling.

the government shutdown, only because it didnt really. This is a partial shutdown. Nothing the conservatives really care about was shutdown. everything shutdown was stuff that the conservatives hate anyways so they allowed it.
Eg. the military, cops, etc. stuff the conservatives care about was never shutdown. We lost the EPA and national parks. Conservatives hate the EPA and want to privatise the national parks.

A failure to raise the debt ceiling would crash the stock market. You think wall street is going to allow their representatives to do that?

[rufuspaul]

Many Republicans think defaulting won't have any negative impact (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/09/us/politics/many-in-gop-offer-theory-default-wouldnt-be-that-bad.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0)

:facepalm

[dr.hee]

Many Republicans think defaulting won't have any negative impact (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/09/us/politics/many-in-gop-offer-theory-default-wouldnt-be-that-bad.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0)

:facepalm

:lol

[MavsSuperFan]

Many Republicans think defaulting won't have any negative impact (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/09/us/politics/many-in-gop-offer-theory-default-wouldnt-be-that-bad.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0)

:facepalm
Wait until their donors give them a call.

The GOP is a wholly owned subsidiary of Wall Street.

There is zero chance they allow us to default on the debt. No one stands more to lose than wall street.

When rich powerful men get scared, shit gets fixed.

[KevinNYC]

Wait until their donors give them a call.

The GOP is a wholly owned subsidiary of Wall Street.

There is zero chance they allow us to default on the debt. No one stands more to lose than wall street.

When rich powerful men get scared, shit gets fixed.

You're ignoring recent history and how radical the House Republicans have become. Remember this? This was under a Republican President and lots of Republican votes went against him. It took the disaster of a 777 point drop in the Dow to get folks to their senses. The House is far more radical now that it was then.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-stocks-slide-dow-plunges-777-points-as-bailout-bill-fails-2008929164700


U.S. stocks hammered after House rejects rescue
Dow posts biggest point loss ever, topping plunge after Sept. 11, 2001

It's not exactly the situation we are in, and that vote was more bipartisan, but you're thinking about the old GOP.

[MavsSuperFan]

You're ignoring recent history and how radical the House Republicans have become. Remember this? This was under a Republican President and lots of Republican votes went against him. It took the disaster of a 777 point drop in the Dow to get folks to their senses. The House is far more radical now that it was then.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-stocks-slide-dow-plunges-777-points-as-bailout-bill-fails-2008929164700


It's not exactly the situation we are in, and that vote was more bipartisan, but you're thinking about the old GOP.

That is still nothing compared to a failure to raise the debt ceiling.

I fully expect them to do everything in their power to scare the democrats in hopes of getting more concessions. Eg cuts to social security, medicare, medicaid. (50% chance the dems get scared into caving at least somewhat)

and there are a few true believers in the conservative movement, but the majority are corporatists who want to serve wall street. The dems chickened out on the government shutdown. basically they let the republicans pick and choose which parts of the government stayed open. Had they said all or nothing the GOP might have caved imo. But dems being weak is expected at this point. In fact its a huge reason the GOP has become this obstinate. Why compromise when the other side always gives more concessions if you just make noise? Did you know the budget Obama and the dems were proposing before the government shutdown was lower than paul ryan original budget (the budget that was considered radical).

Wall street is not served by a failure to raise the debt ceiling. this is a ploy to get more concessions.

[DCL]

bluff of the century.

well, not really, because they already tried this before.

if this was tournament of poker championships, you'd see me pouring my entire stack of chips onto the table and then jumping right up and high-fiving everyone in the crowd because that pot is mine.

for some poker hands, you want to slow it down and think and rationalize and think of probabilities of the bluff.

this shit? it's no brainer micro-second ALL IN call. :oldlol:

you have to understand the MAGNITUDE of the historic global financial devastation and consequences to know a default is not happening. you don't need to take a course in game theory to know that letting a default occur would be the most irrational decision of all irrational decisions. it would be like a guy taking all his money out of his bank and burning it in fire because he can't get the other side to agree with him. what stupid mothafugga would do something like that? even islamic jihad suicide bombers are looking at this and going, "US defaulting??? no fooking way, Allah! that's completely retarded and insane!" the debate is simply for tv analysts to bullshit for an hour over nothing.

ALL IN on this bluff.

[Nick Young]

Goddamn Obama screwing up the country worse then any president ever has before. He is basically America's Caligula.

[travelingman]

Goddamn Obama screwing up the country worse then any president ever has before. He is basically America's Caligula.

This is a damn good bit of satire.

[Godzuki]

its funny how much some people hold grudges here lol sending me hate neg comments....still butthurt over me punking them years ago and still pissed. oh well i ain't mad at ya :cheers:

and make a argument if you think i'm wrong pls thx.

[Godzuki]

bluff of the century.

well, not really, because they already tried this before.

if this was tournament of poker championships, you'd see me pouring my entire stack of chips onto the table and then jumping right up and high-fiving everyone in the crowd because that pot is mine.

for some poker hands, you want to slow it down and think and rationalize and think of probabilities of the bluff.

this shit? it's no brainer micro-second ALL IN call. :oldlol:

you have to understand the MAGNITUDE of the historic global financial devastation and consequences to know a default is not happening. you don't need to take a course in game theory to know that letting a default occur would be the most irrational decision of all irrational decisions. it would be like a guy taking all his money out of his bank and burning it in fire because he can't get the other side to agree with him. what stupid mothafugga would do something like that? even islamic jihad suicide bombers are looking at this and going, "US defaulting??? no fooking way, Allah! that's completely retarded and insane!" the debate is simply for tv analysts to bullshit for an hour over nothing.

ALL IN on this bluff.

i agree but Obama might give in some just to end the shutdown. i hope he doesn't but its possible he will give them some promises for future expenditure cuts, which will allow them to save face where they justify holding the country hostage with that concession. i'll be real disappointed in him if he caves at all tho.