the only man to win multiple championships without another NBA HOF team mate [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

kennethgriffin

10-14-2013, 05:08 PM

http://i44.tinypic.com/287d81u.png

no other player in history has done it

the only other guy on his team that might make it will be as an international contributor

Pau Gasols individual nba accolades arent up to par

4 reserve allstar selections
1 third team all nba
2 second team all nba's
0-16 in the playoffs without kobe bryant

just as a comparison.. this is anfernee hardaways career

4 starting allstar selections
2 first team all nba's
1 third team all nba
9 playoff wins without shaq

now.. say anfernee hardaway lucked out 2 rings with the suns behind jason kidd.. even if he had 2 good years.. he still wouldnt be a hall of famer.

and making the hall of fame based on winning olympic silver medals or euro competition gold isnt exactly on the same level as an nba hall of famer. considering that if an american wins a silver medal or some second rate international gold. that wouldnt get them a hall of fame nomination. plus its allot easier to be the best player on a euro national team than it is on the US team

KyrieTheFuture

10-14-2013, 05:11 PM

Both Phil Jackson and pau gasol will be in the HOF. PJ doesn't get enough credit for some of his teams success. His player management is second to none.

ihoopallday

10-14-2013, 05:13 PM

So we're just going to ignore his hall of fame head coach? :no: That triangle offense is the reason LA was so successful.

ihoopallday

10-14-2013, 05:14 PM

Both Phil Jackson and pau gasol will be in the HOF. PJ doesn't get enough credit for some of his teams success. His player management is second to none.

You beat me to it. Can't ignore Phil Jackson's impact on those championship runs

kennethgriffin

10-14-2013, 05:16 PM

So we're just going to ignore his hall of fame head coach? :no: That triangle offense is the reason LA was so successful.

umm.. i'm pretty sure hall of fame coaches dont count as team mates

yea sure he had hall of fame executives/owners/coaches... whatever

:lol

they dont put the ball in the hole though..

and its obvious i meant team mates..

HurricaneKid

10-14-2013, 05:17 PM

<-- Watches Pau led the Lakers in PER, WS, Postseason PER, Postseason WS, Finals WS in 2010.

<-- Watches Laker fans crush Pau.

<-- Watches D12 leave LA.

<-- UNDERSTANDS.

DMAVS41

10-14-2013, 05:19 PM

False.

Pau Gasol will be in the hall of fame whether you like it or not?

aj1987

10-14-2013, 05:19 PM

Weren't the '09 and '10 Lakers the best rebounding teams in the NBA? I'm pretty sure that they had the best front court in the NBA as well.

kennethgriffin

10-14-2013, 05:19 PM

<-- Watches Pau led the Lakers in PER, WS, Postseason PER, Postseason WS, Finals WS in 2010.

<-- Watches Laker fans crush Pau.

<-- Watches D12 leave LA.

<-- UNDERSTANDS.

like i said.. being good for a few years doesnt make pau or penny hall of famers

he was a soft playoff choker.. then in 2008 he joined kobe... had a good 2009 and 2010.. then fell off the face of the earth

thats a 2.5 year run as a boarderline hall of famer

GrapeApe

10-14-2013, 05:20 PM

Gasol will be in the HOF.

DMAVS41

10-14-2013, 05:21 PM

Weren't the '09 and '10 Lakers the best rebounding teams in the NBA? I'm pretty sure that they had the best front court in the NBA as well.

Inb4 Branslowski comes in to tell you that, for some reason, Gasol wasn't part of the front court.

kennethgriffin

10-14-2013, 05:21 PM

False.

Pau Gasol will be in the hall of fame whether you like it or not?

yes. but it will be as an international contributer

like i said in the title.

"no other NBA hall of famer"

is pau making the hof based on his individual nba accolades of 2 third team awards?

hell no

:lol

its the naismith basketball hof... not the nba hof... remember that

TheReal Kendall

10-14-2013, 05:23 PM

Kobe the only player to win multiple championships while getting bailed out by scrubs.

DMAVS41

10-14-2013, 05:24 PM

yes. but it will be as an international contributer

like i said in the title.

"no other NBA hall of famer"

is pau making the hof based on his individual nba accolades of 2 third team awards?

hell no

:lol

its the naismith basketball hof... not the nba hof... remember that

There is only one basketball hall of fame. Therefore your claim is false.

And on NBA alone...it's very close. I bet he'd probably get in on NBA alone actually.

But this thread is so pointless. In 2011...Dirk won a title without anyone as good as Gasol. The hall of famer thing is just stupid of the hall of famer in question is well past his prime.

TheMarkMadsen

10-14-2013, 05:25 PM

So we're just going to ignore his hall of fame head coach? :no: That triangle offense is the reason LA was so successful.

The triangle was the reason for the success?

Must be why the Bulls took home titles in 94 & 95 and why LA took home the gold in 04, 05, 06..

You can run the best schemed offense in the world but you need elite players or a good combination of players with certain skill sets to get it done.

Lamar wasn't Close to being as good as Pippen, but took the role of a forward/guard distributor while Ariza took the role of lengthy perimeter defender.

The 09 Lakers were incredibly thin when you looked past their starting 5, the guard depth was inconsistent at best, the starting point guard was shooting at a low efficiency while being a liability on defense, and their 3rd best player wasn't consistently good enough to start.

And on top of all that the startin center played under 30 minutes per game and grabbed less than 5 boards per..

That "big 3" was Kobe/Gasol/Odom which is pretty weak compared to the more recent big 3s to win championships.

kennethgriffin

10-14-2013, 05:26 PM

There is only one basketball hall of fame. Therefore your claim is false.

And on NBA alone...it's very close. I bet he'd probably get in on NBA alone actually.

But this thread is so pointless. In 2011...Dirk won a title without anyone as good as Gasol. The hall of famer thing is just stupid of the hall of famer in question is well past his prime.

yes but there are classifications as to what part of the naismith hall of fame theyre nominated to

for instance.. yao ming was nominated as international contributer to the naismith hall of fame.. he wont go in as an nba player

i think after paus last few years bump his career average down to around 16ppg... he'l be floating around missing out on ballots for 10-20 years.. then finally make it as an I.C. hall of famer

secund2nun

10-14-2013, 05:28 PM

Gasol is a HOF lock and was the real finals MVP in 09 and 10. Kobe won both off of hype. Kobe before Gasol could not even win a playoff series in the 3 seasons he had and that was prime Kobe.

TheMarkMadsen

10-14-2013, 05:30 PM

And on NBA alone...it's very close. I bet he'd probably get in on NBA alone actually.

No it's not very close at all actually. Saying Gasol is a hall of famed without playing on the Lakers is like saying Lamarcus Aldridge is a hall of famer

Kblaze8855

10-14-2013, 05:30 PM

DMAVS41

10-14-2013, 05:31 PM

yes but there are classifications as to what part of the naismith hall of fame theyre nominated to

for instance.. yao ming was nominated as international contributer to the naismith hall of fame.. he wont go in as an nba player

i think after paus last few years bump his career average down to around 16ppg... he'l be floating around missing out on ballots for 10-20 years.. then finally make it as an I.C. hall of famer

It won't take 20 years for Gasol to get in. He'll get in very quickly. He's borderline on his NBA resume alone.

But what is the point of this thread?

Jason Kidd is a first ballot hall of famer. Yet 09 and 10 Gasol was probably twice as good as 11 Kidd.

So what is the point of this thread?

DMAVS41

10-14-2013, 05:32 PM

No it's not very close at all actually. Saying Gasol is a hall of famed without playing on the Lakers is like saying Lamarcus Aldridge is a hall of famer

Without playing on the Lakers? I never said that. Why would we remove his most important years in the NBA?

Hoopz2332

10-14-2013, 05:35 PM

FACT:

Pau Gasol lead a team to 50 wins as the man before Kobe did, post-Shaq/pre-Gasol:coleman: :sleeping

TheReturn

10-14-2013, 05:36 PM

I hope Pau gets some recognition from his teammates and the organization, because his teams fans continuously disrespect him.

DMAVS41

10-14-2013, 05:38 PM

FACT:

Pau Gasol lead a team to 50 wins as the man before Kobe did, post-Shaq/pre-Gasol:coleman: :sleeping

Yea.

Before coming to the Lakers. Gasol was a career 19/9/3 on around 57% TS 22 PER player capable of being the clear cut best player on a 50 win team.

The way Kobe fans talk about Gasol is just shocking.

TheMarkMadsen

10-14-2013, 05:40 PM

Gasol is going to the hall. He wont be the least accomplished hall of famer either. Not even among bigmen. Or bigmen who made it mostly off the NBA. Walt bellamy is like a 4 time al lstar, put up numbers in college that didnt lead to much, didnt do much in the playoffs, and won as the 4th or so best player on an olympic team with oscar, west, Lucas and some others.

And make the team or not Pau has been an all star level player more than 10 years in a row. He was playing superstar bigmen as a near equal when he was a rookie.

Gasol isnt some all time elite. But hes a HOF level player.

Your example Walt Bellamy is a weird example to use when trying to argue that lesser players than Gasol made the HOF.

Bellamy had a 32ppg/19rpg rookie year..

Played 14 years and has a career average of 20 & 14 and is one of only 7 players all time to have 20,000+ points & 14,000 + rebounds

Also when he retired he was 6th all time in scoring & 3rd all time in career rebounding behind only Wilt & Russell..

secund2nun

10-14-2013, 05:40 PM

Yea.

Before coming to the Lakers. Gasol was a career 18/9/3 on around 57% TS player capable of being the clear cut best player on a 50 win team.

The way Kobe fans talk about Gasol is just shocking.

You would think they would bow down to Gasol after saving the Lakers for 3 seasons of prime Kobe failing to even get them a playoff series win and then also for Gasol outplaying Kobe in the 09 and 10 finals.

Hoopz2332

10-14-2013, 05:42 PM

Yea.

Before coming to the Lakers. Gasol was a career 19/9/3 on around 57% TS player capable of being the clear cut best player on a 50 win team.

The way Kobe fans talk about Gasol is just shocking.

Kobe needs elite big men/rebound eaters to make up for his bricking

kennethgriffin

10-14-2013, 05:42 PM

It won't take 20 years for Gasol to get in. He'll get in very quickly. He's borderline on his NBA resume alone.

But what is the point of this thread?

Jason Kidd is a first ballot hall of famer. Yet 09 and 10 Gasol was probably twice as good as 11 Kidd.

So what is the point of this thread?

if thats the case then who isnt a hall of famer

how many guys in the nba dont around 4 reserve allstar games and a single 2nd team all nba

and his current average isnt even what he'l retire with

considering

2011 - 18.8ppg, 52%
2012 - 17.4ppg, 50%
2013 - 13.7ppg, 46%

he'l play 4-5 more years

projected

best case
2014 - 17ppg
2015 - 16ppg
2016 - 16ppg
2017 - 14ppg
2018 - 12ppg

worst case
2014 - 14ppg
2015 - 13ppg
2016 - 13ppg
2017 - 11ppg
2018 - 9ppg

no matter what.. his career average will drop from 18/9 to around 16/8

and worst case ( based on his current body conditioning ) ... his career average will drop from 18/9 to 15/7

so even with just 1 post prime drop off season. his career average is boarderline hall of famer

by the time hes retired.. he wont have a chance in hell at making it

shaq had a 27ppg career average... it dropped to 24ppg after his last few years of being tossed around hanging onto his playing days

TheReturn

10-14-2013, 05:43 PM

Your example Walt Bellamy is a weird example to use when trying to argue that lesser players than Gasol made the HOF.

Bellamy had a 32ppg/19rpg rookie year..

Played 14 years and has a career average of 20 & 14 and is one of only 7 players all time to have 20,000+ points & 14,000 + rebounds

Also when he retired he was 6th all time in scoring & 3rd all time in career rebounding behind only Wilt & Russell..
Impact matters.. Not inflated 60s stats.

DMAVS41

10-14-2013, 05:46 PM

You would think they would bow down to Gasol after saving the Lakers for 3 seasons of prime Kobe failing to even get them a playoff series win and then also for Gasol outplaying Kobe in the 09 and 10 finals.

Not to mention the main reason Gasol hasn't been himself since the 11 playoffs was being forced out of his comfort zone by Bynum and then Howard.

He was a 19/10/3 59% TS 23.3 PER guy in the 2011 regular season. It was Bynum coming back and playing more minutes and taking Gasol away from what he did best that messed with the Lakers chemistry and Gasol's effectiveness.

He was absurdly good as a 2nd option from 08 through 11. And I bet you see him get back to producing very well if his idiotic coach can put him in the right position to excel.

DMAVS41

10-14-2013, 05:48 PM

if thats the case then who isnt a hall of famer

how many guys in the nba dont around 4 reserve allstar games and a single 2nd team all nba

and his current average isnt even what he'l retire with

considering

2011 - 18.8ppg, 52%
2012 - 17.4ppg, 50%
2013 - 13.7ppg, 46%

he'l play 4-5 more years

projected

best case
2014 - 17ppg
2015 - 16ppg
2016 - 16ppg
2017 - 14ppg
2018 - 12ppg

worst case
2014 - 14ppg
2015 - 13ppg
2016 - 13ppg
2017 - 11ppg
2018 - 9ppg

no matter what.. his career average will drop from 18/9 to around 16/8

and worst case ( based on his current body conditioning ) ... his career average will drop from 18/9 to 15/7

so even with just 1 post prime drop off season. his career average is boarderline hall of famer

by the time hes retired.. he wont have a chance in hell at making it

shaq had a 27ppg career average... it dropped to 24ppg after his last few years of being tossed around hanging onto his playing days

What are you talking about? Gasol's 3 straight title appearances and back to back titles will go a long way in beefing up his resume.

You can't just ignore that.

kennethgriffin

10-14-2013, 05:52 PM

What are you talking about? Gasol's 3 straight title appearances and back to back titles will go a long way in beefing up his resume.

You can't just ignore that.

oh common... titles and finals appearences are used when talking about legends.. not role players

people laugh at kobes 2000 title because he was "only" a 1st team all nba defender, 2nd team all nba, starting allstar with 23/5/5

they say only kobes last 4 rings are on par other hof'ers

so if thats the case.. then paus 18ppg, 0 all defensive team, 3rd team all nba reserve ASG titles are worth even less than that... "I WOULD ASSUME???" lol

:lol

secund2nun

10-14-2013, 05:56 PM

Not to mention the main reason Gasol hasn't been himself since the 11 playoffs was being forced out of his comfort zone by Bynum and then Howard.

He was a 19/10/3 59% TS 23.3 PER guy in the 2011 regular season. It was Bynum coming back and playing more minutes and taking Gasol away from what he did best that messed with the Lakers chemistry and Gasol's effectiveness.

He was absurdly good as a 2nd option from 08 through 11. And I bet you see him get back to producing very well if his idiotic coach can put him in the right position to excel.

I don't even view him as a 2nd option. He was a co-1st option imo. He has dominated so many series. In game 7 vs houston 09 Kobe choked and Gasol tore it up and led them to the win. He is so underappreciated. I agree he will perform well now. Gasol is pretty much a center on offense so other centers did get in the way. That team was not some Batman-Robin type team that people want to make it out to be.

One key point is that whenever Gasol had a subpar game they rarely won yet when Kobe had entire subpar series, let alone games they could still win.

That team's success was fueled on the dominant front court play. People give Gasol flack for not even winning a playoff series before LA well what did prime Kobe did? Failed in all 3 chances he got. Kobe even had 2 7th seeds and a missed playoffs. Yet Gasol joins them and they win the west 3 times and back to back titles yet Gasol is ignored.

DMAVS41

10-14-2013, 05:56 PM

oh common... titles and finals appearences are used when talking about legends.. not role players

people laugh at kobes 2000 title because he was "only" a 1st team all nba defender, 2nd team all nba, starting allstar with 23/5/5

they say only kobes last 4 rings are on par other hof'ers

so if thats the case.. then paus 18ppg, 0 all defensive team, 3rd team all nba reserve ASG titles are worth even less than that... "I WOULD ASSUME???" lol

:lol

This is not true at all. You are talking across points as usual. The hall of fame is different than ranking players in a specific order.

This is true whether you like it or not...which makes this so fun. Gasol will be in the hall of fame whether you like it or not...and his 3 finals appearances and 2 titles will be part of the reason why...whether you like it or not.

Being a part of titles as the clear cut 2nd best player while playing at an all nba level matters for the history of the game. Again...whether you like it or not.

And when you combine what Gasol did from 08 through 10...with a very good career overall. You get someone going into the Hall. Simple as that.

kennethgriffin

10-14-2013, 05:58 PM

This is not true at all. You are talking across points as usual. The hall of fame is different than ranking players in a specific order.

This is true whether you like it or not...which makes this so fun. Gasol will be in the hall of fame whether you like it or not...and his 3 finals appearances and 2 titles will be part of the reason why...whether you like it or not.

Being a part of titles as the clear cut 2nd best player while playing at an all nba level matters for the history of the game. Again...whether you like it or not.

And when you combine what Gasol did from 08 through 10...with a very good career overall. You get someone going into the Hall. Simple as that.

i never said he had no chance. i said he has a 50% chance infact... but it wont be solely based on his nba resume

even you gotta admit i'm not that far off by saying kobe won without another nba hall of fame team mate

otherwise we might aswell throw in guys like rasheed wallace

if you wanna lower the standard of what a hof'r is just to mess with kobe or his fans.. go ahead.

but you couldnt look at anyone with a straight face and say pau gasoft is a hall of fame talent.

SamuraiSWISH

10-14-2013, 06:01 PM

Gasol is quite clearly a HOFer

Fudge

10-14-2013, 06:02 PM

:roll:

Kennyboy, deal with it bud. Gasol's a HOFer.

kennethgriffin

10-14-2013, 06:06 PM

:roll:

Kennyboy, deal with it bud. Gasol's a HOFer.

not an nba hall of famer though

:oldlol:

international contributions elect :bowdown:

Heavincent

10-14-2013, 06:07 PM

BoutPractice

10-14-2013, 06:08 PM

Not only that, but more largely speaking, it is well known that the 08 to 10 Lakers were a stacked team. To suggest otherwise and try to paint them as a "one man band" is pure historical revisionism. They had by far the best frontcourt in the NBA, with Gasol averaging 18, 11, 3.5 and near 2 blocks, Bynum averaging 15, 8 and 1.5 blocks, and Odom averaging 10, 10 and 3.5, not to mention Ron Artest and his incredible defense. And it's not just the stats - it was really obvious to anyone watching the games that the Lakers had a huge competitive advantage against pretty much any team in the frontcourt.

sportjames23

10-14-2013, 06:10 PM

kennethgriffin

10-14-2013, 06:12 PM

By this logic, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson and Larry Bird, among others, did the same thing. None of their teammates were Hall of Famers at the time they won championships.

Gasol WILL be in the Hall one day. His international career guarantees that.

Re: the only man to win multiple championships without another NBA HOF team mate

......

Jameerthefear

10-14-2013, 06:12 PM

op being a *** again. gasol is a hofer. go cry about it.

DMAVS41

10-14-2013, 06:14 PM

i never said he had no chance. i said he has a 50% chance infact... but it wont be solely based on his nba resume

even you gotta admit i'm not that far off by saying kobe won without another nba hall of fame team mate

otherwise we might aswell throw in guys like rasheed wallace

if you wanna lower the standard of what a hof'r is just to mess with kobe or his fans.. go ahead.

but you couldnt look at anyone with a straight face and say pau gasoft is a hall of fame talent.

Actually I could. I think Gasol absolutely is a hall of fame talent.

Again. What is the point of this thread? Many star players have won titles with 2nd options worse than 09 and 10 Gasol.

So I still don't see the point.

Do you really think 17/10/3/1/2 57% TS 20.8 PER career playoff performers with 3 finals appearances and 2 titles as the clear cut 2nd best player grow on trees?

You brought up Rasheed Wallace...lets have a look;

14/6/2/1/1 52% TS 15.5 PER career playoffs

1 title he averaged 13/8/2

05 finals appearance he averaged 14/7/1

Wallace played 16 years in the league. Gasol has already played 12 years.

DMAVS41

10-14-2013, 06:20 PM

Funny how you agree with blatant trolls such as secund2nun. I thought you were an objective and unbiased poster?

Sorry...it's trolling to claim Gasol is not a hall of famer.

Or come up with this absurd notion that Gasol wasn't a beast in 09 and 10.

I keep asking what the point of this thread is? Because we all know 09 and 10 Gasol was better than a lot of 2nd options that players have won with.

03 Parker, 11 Terry, and 13 Wade were all clearly worse than 10 Gasol.

I'd also argue that 07 Parker and 04 Billups or Hamilton (whoever you choose as the 2nd best player) was worse as well.

So I don't see the point of this thread at all.

Unbiased_one

10-14-2013, 06:35 PM

if thats the case then who isnt a hall of famer

how many guys in the nba dont around 4 reserve allstar games and a single 2nd team all nba

and his current average isnt even what he'l retire with

considering

2011 - 18.8ppg, 52%
2012 - 17.4ppg, 50%
2013 - 13.7ppg, 46%

he'l play 4-5 more years

projected

best case
2014 - 17ppg
2015 - 16ppg
2016 - 16ppg
2017 - 14ppg
2018 - 12ppg

worst case
2014 - 14ppg
2015 - 13ppg
2016 - 13ppg
2017 - 11ppg
2018 - 9ppg

no matter what.. his career average will drop from 18/9 to around 16/8

and worst case ( based on his current body conditioning ) ... his career average will drop from 18/9 to 15/7

so even with just 1 post prime drop off season. his career average is boarderline hall of famer

by the time hes retired.. he wont have a chance in hell at making it

shaq had a 27ppg career average... it dropped to 24ppg after his last few years of being tossed around hanging onto his playing days

Gasol was the best player in the 2010 finals...surely that makes this whole thread irrelevant

GrapeApe

10-14-2013, 06:36 PM

Though Gasol will certainly make the HOF, having the HOF label is irrelevant in terms of actual play. I'm a huge Wade fan but he clearly didn't play like a HOFer for the majority of the '13 playoffs. Gasol on the other hand was outstanding during both championship runs.

BoutPractice

10-14-2013, 06:41 PM

If you look at most productive championship second options since the 00s Gasol would be number 2 behind Kobe. To me he's above Wade putting 12 and 13 together and weighing them against 09 and 10 together, as well as above 08 Pierce, 07 (and 03, obviously) Parker, 05 Ginobili, 04 Hamilton, 06 Shaq, and 11 Terry.

DuMa

10-14-2013, 06:52 PM

Gasol not a HOF?

http://replygif.net/i/599.gif

NumberSix

10-14-2013, 06:52 PM

There's literally no chance of Pau not being an HOFer.

NumberSix

10-14-2013, 07:07 PM

Even Derek Fisher will probably make the HOF. Wouldn't be surprised is L.O. And Metta make it too.

kennethgriffin

10-14-2013, 07:12 PM

http://i41.tinypic.com/2ihv21x.gif

:bowdown:

DMAVS41

10-14-2013, 07:13 PM

will yao ming be a real hall of famer when he makes it under his nominated internation induction?

how many times do i have to say

kobe had no other NBA hall of fame team mate

read the title idiots

You say that as if it is a fact. Which it isn't.

And again. What is the point?

We all know that Kidd in 11 was much worse than Pau in 10. So what does the distinction matter?

Parker in 03 was way worse. Wade in 13 was way worse...etc.

So what is the point?

KG215

10-14-2013, 07:15 PM

kobe had no other NBA hall of fame team mate

read the title idiots
You do this a lot with all the shit you've convinced yourself is true over the years. Just because you declare it or say it over and over again doesn't make it fact. Kinda reminds me of the episode of The Office where Michael wanted to declare bankruptcy and thought all he had to do was stand in the middle of the office and shout "I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY!!!", and it was done.

So, you can keep telling yourself Gasol is not an NBA HOFer, but he is. All his international success has done is make it stone cold lead pipe lock. But if he was just trying to get in on the merits of his NBA career, that'd eventually happen too.

Not to mention the simple-minded ignorance of trying to pass it off as something as simple as "no other NBA HOF teammate". People have already pointed out multiple examples from the lad 10+ years alone where '09 and '10 Gasol was better than the second option on some other championship teams.

jzek

10-14-2013, 07:16 PM

Pau Gasol is a first-ballot Hall of Famer. This isn't even debatable.

GrapeApe

10-14-2013, 07:18 PM

will yao ming be a real hall of famer when he makes it under his nominated internation induction?

how many times do i have to say

kobe had no other NBA hall of fame team mate

read the title idiots

Since there is no NBA hall of fame, are you saying that the HOF commitee will specifically cite Gasol's international career as the reason for his induction? It's a legitimate question because I don't know how that works, but it seems rather unlikely especially for a guy who had a long productive NBA career.

kennethgriffin

10-14-2013, 07:18 PM

Pau Gasol is a first-ballot Hall of Famer. This isn't even debatable.

reggie miller and dennis rodman were 2nd ballot

:facepalm

1st ballot is reserved for legends you idiot

:facepalm

DMAVS41

10-14-2013, 07:19 PM

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob.html?redir

Here is one method showing Gasol has a higher probability of making the HOF on his NBA resume than not.

NumberSix

10-14-2013, 07:19 PM

Pau will probably make the HOF before Kobe.

KG215

10-14-2013, 07:21 PM

There's literally no chance of Pau not being an HOFer.
And hell, since OP is being so simple-minded with this HOF nonsense....

How about Kobe leading 3 other HOFers to 47 wins and a 7-seed last year? I mean if we're just going to ignore context and manipulate information to fit agendas, that has to be just as damming to his career resume as, "Kobe winning multiple championships without another NBA HOF team mate," is good for his career resume.

So, in a sense, Kobe winning multiple championships without a HOF teammate was cancelled out by leading 3 other HOFers the 7-seed and 47 wins. Right?

:confusedshrug:

Is it really that easy to be a Kobe stan? Just pretend things like context and logic don't exist and go bananas?

kennethgriffin

10-14-2013, 07:25 PM

Pau will probably make the HOF before Kobe.

its possible

kobe may play 5 more years. pau 3-4 if his legs/feet dont hold up

and itel be as an international contributor :cheers:

NumberSix

10-14-2013, 07:28 PM

its possible

kobe may play 5 more years. pau 3-4 if his legs/feet dont hold up

and itel be as an international contributor :cheers:
Will Kobe make the HOF as a franchise player or as a sidekick?

ralph_i_el

10-14-2013, 07:32 PM

Pau gasol is a HoF lock. Oscar Schmidt is in the HoF

kennethgriffin

10-14-2013, 07:33 PM

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob.html?redir

Here is one method showing Gasol has a higher probability of making the HOF on his NBA resume than not.

you just owned yourself

btw thanks for pointing out kobe is the only 100% guaranteed hof'er in the nba

1. Kobe Bryant 1.0000
2. Tim Duncan 0.9999
3. LeBron James 0.9995
4. Dwyane Wade 0.9991
5. Kevin Garnett 0.9990
6. Dirk Nowitzki 0.9867
7. Paul Pierce 0.9827
8. Ray Allen 0.9663
9. Chris Bosh 0.9484
10. Chris Paul 0.8911
11. Tony Parker 0.8319
12. Carmelo Anthony 0.8167
13. Dwight Howard 0.8072
14. Vince Carter 0.7678
15. Kevin Durant 0.7203
16. Pau Gasol 0.6127
17. Tracy McGrady 0.5822
18. Steve Nash 0.5627
19. Amar'e Stoudemire 0.5560

the bold wont make the HOF

and dont you find it funny how durant has .10 more points on his HOF possibility than gasol when gasols nearly finished his career and durant has barely started his

plus.. durant hasnt done anything yet except win scoring titles. and even if his career ended tomorrow he'd have no chance ( with .10 points more than gasol )

infact. nash without his 2 mvps would have no shot at the HOF either

only guys who are hall of famers if they retired tomorrow on that list are

1. Kobe Bryant 1.0000
2. Tim Duncan 0.9999
3. LeBron James 0.9995
4. Dwyane Wade 0.9991
5. Kevin Garnett 0.9990
6. Dirk Nowitzki 0.9867
7. Paul Pierce 0.9827
8. Ray Allen 0.9663
9. Chris Bosh 0.9484
10. Chris Paul 0.8911
11. Tony Parker 0.8319

with a wild card exception for nash due to his mvps

which basically means you need around 0.80+ to make it

gasols nowhere close as far as NBA accolades

sorry. thanks for proving my point for me

:cheers:

fpliii

10-14-2013, 07:36 PM

you just owned yourself

btw thanks for pointing out kobe is the only 100% guaranteed hof'er in the nba

1. Kobe Bryant 1.0000
2. Tim Duncan 0.9999
3. LeBron James 0.9995
4. Dwyane Wade 0.9991
5. Kevin Garnett 0.9990
6. Dirk Nowitzki 0.9867
7. Paul Pierce 0.9827
8. Ray Allen 0.9663
9. Chris Bosh 0.9484
10. Chris Paul 0.8911
11. Tony Parker 0.8319
12. Carmelo Anthony 0.8167
13. Dwight Howard 0.8072
14. Vince Carter 0.7678
15. Kevin Durant 0.7203
16. Pau Gasol 0.6127
17. Tracy McGrady 0.5822
18. Steve Nash 0.5627
19. Amar'e Stoudemire 0.5560

the bold wont make the HOF

and dont you find it funny how durant has .10 more points on his HOF possibility than gasol when gasols nearly finished his career and durant has barely started his

plus.. durant hasnt done anything yet except win scoring titles. and even if his career ended tomorrow he'd have no chance ( with .10 points more than gasol )

infact. nash without his 2 mvps would have no shot at the HOF either

only guys who are hall of famers if they retired tomorrow on that list are

1. Kobe Bryant 1.0000
2. Tim Duncan 0.9999
3. LeBron James 0.9995
4. Dwyane Wade 0.9991
5. Kevin Garnett 0.9990
6. Dirk Nowitzki 0.9867
7. Paul Pierce 0.9827
8. Ray Allen 0.9663
9. Chris Bosh 0.9484
10. Chris Paul 0.8911
11. Tony Parker 0.8319

with a wild card exception for nash due to his mvps

which basically means you need around 0.80+ to make it

gasols nowhere close as far as NBA accolades

sorry. thanks for proving my point for me

:cheers:

What's with the obsession of accolades? All that matters is how much you improve your team's chances of winning as many championships or possible.

Doranku

10-14-2013, 07:37 PM

Weren't the '09 and '10 Lakers the best rebounding teams in the NBA? I'm pretty sure that they had the best front court in the NBA as well.

Weren't the '12 and '13 Heat the most stacked team in league history relative to competition?

Yikes.

kennethgriffin

10-14-2013, 07:37 PM

just looked up the minimum average needed to make the HOF based on past inductees and their score

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/hof_prob.html

Hall of Fame probabilities are presented for all players with a minimum of 400 NBA games played. Although it can be risky to make predictions for active players, you can think of these probabilities as answering the question "If this player retired today, what is the probability he would be elected to the Hall of Fame?". The model was built using a pool of 750 players. One method to assess classification accuracy is to compare the estimated Hall of Fame probability for the case to the actual result. Of the 750 players, 89 had been elected to the Hall of Fame and 661 had not. If the player's predicted probability of election was greater than or equal to 0.5, I predicted that he was in the Hall of Fame. Of the 89 players in the Hall of Fame, 74 were correctly classified (83.1%) and 15 were not (16.9%). Of the 661 players not in the Hall of Fame, 651 were correctly classified (98.5%) and 10 were not (1.5%). Overall, 725 of the 750 players (96.7%) were correctly classified by the model.

gasols .60 isnt enough

GrapeApe

10-14-2013, 07:38 PM

NumberSix

10-14-2013, 07:40 PM

Weren't the '12 and '13 Heat the most stacked team in league history relative to competition?

Yikes.
Obviously not considering that they were taken to 2 game 7s and had 1 player who lead the team in almost every category possible.

kennethgriffin

10-14-2013, 07:41 PM

I'm pretty sure that 14+ years in the NBA with 2 titles (as an all-star) assures that he won't be an "international contributor". It's not as if he's Arvydas Sabonis. Gasol has had a terrific NBA career.

it was terrific

i like gasol. hes a really good player. for a few years he was great. even on an allstar level

and we couldnt have won without his help

but to say hes a hall of fame nba player is a joke

red1

10-14-2013, 07:53 PM

Gasol WILL go into the hall of fame so there goes your thread

kennethgriffin

10-14-2013, 07:56 PM

Gasol WILL go into the hall of fame so there goes your thread

another person that has a problem with reading comprehension

:roll:

anyone can make the hall of fame

as an ambassador, coach, owner, executive, sponsor, international contributor, pioneer, nba player, wnba player etc...

kobe had no other legit nba hall of famer

gasols nba hof rating is 0.621

the minimum to make the hall of fame is 0.83-0.84

GrapeApe

10-14-2013, 08:01 PM

it was terrific

i like gasol. hes a really good player. for a few years he was great. even on an allstar level

and we couldnt have won without his help

but to say hes a hall of fame nba player is a joke

Are there any NBA players with 4 all-star appearances and 2 titles (while being an all-star) that aren't in the HOF? I don't feel like looking it up but I'm guessing the answer is no. Gasol's NBA career alone would likely get him to the HOF.

Fudge

10-14-2013, 08:01 PM

Kennyboy getting contantly owned in his threads tho. :roll:

Gasol's a clear cut 1st ballot NBA hall of famer brah

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/deal_with_it-Lakers.gif

red1

10-14-2013, 08:06 PM

kennethgriffin

10-14-2013, 08:06 PM

Kennyboy getting contantly owned in his threads tho. :roll:

Gasol's a clear cut 1st ballot NBA hall of famer brah

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/deal_with_it-Lakers.gif

pretty sure i'm doing the owning

proving gasols hof rating of 0.62 is .20 points below the average hall of fame induction rating

:confusedshrug:

kennethgriffin

10-14-2013, 08:09 PM

reggie miller and dennis rodman barely made the 2nd ballot

and theyre 10 times better than gasol all time

Fudge

10-14-2013, 08:09 PM

pretty sure i'm doing the owning

proving gasols hof rating of 0.62 is .20 points below the average hall of fame induction rating

:confusedshrug:

YOU AINT DEALIN WITH IT THO

red1

10-14-2013, 08:12 PM

Kobe was obviously the best player and the leader of the team. That said, you do realize that gasol's production was nearly on par with kobe's right? Does that mean that kobe is also close to being a "not real hall of fame player"?

LikeABosh

10-14-2013, 08:36 PM

Even if you stupidly believe Gasol won't be in the hall of fame, he certainly played like a HOFer in the 2 championship runs. He averaged 20 ppg on 54% shooting, 11 rebounds, 2 blocks, and 4 assists per game in the 2010 playoffs. He was more impactful than Kobe in the Finals

Droid101

10-14-2013, 08:42 PM

<-- Watches Pau led the Lakers in PER, WS, Postseason PER, Postseason WS, Finals WS in 2010.

<-- Watches Laker fans crush Pau.

<-- Watches D12 leave LA.

<-- UNDERSTANDS.
Be careful of that Playoff Win Share stat. Remember Kobe led one of the Shaq/Kobe rings in playoff Win Shares.

bdreason

10-14-2013, 08:43 PM

Shaq won 4 titles without a HoF player.

sportjames23

10-14-2013, 09:18 PM

......

Without a HOF teammate for NOW, dude. Gasol will be in the Hall.

And as I said, at the time they won, Bird, Magic and Jordan won multiple titles WITHOUT HOF teammates, too.

j3lademaster

10-14-2013, 09:20 PM

Man, Pau gets hated on so much. No one thinks Gasol is that great of a pf/c from an all-time perspective. Obviously Drobb, Hakeem, Ewing, Zo, Shaq, etc would demolish him no one is arguing that. He's more Rony Seikaly or Brad Daugherty than those guys.

But... THERE ARE NO HAKEEMS, EWINGS, ETC IN GASOL'S ERA. Kobe got the best 7 footer available in the market and you have to think about it that way. Who else was Kobe going to get? Dwight? You guys all think he's an "exposed scrub". Plus Gasol outplayed him straight up in the finals.

I don't see why we can't just agree that Gasol with his own team and no quality teammates is 1st round fodder or missing the PO's, but guess what... so is Kobe! Kobe needed Gasol as much as Gasol needed him.

rmt

10-14-2013, 11:50 PM

you just owned yourself

btw thanks for pointing out kobe is the only 100% guaranteed hof'er in the nba

1. Kobe Bryant 1.0000
2. Tim Duncan 0.9999
3. LeBron James 0.9995
4. Dwyane Wade 0.9991
5. Kevin Garnett 0.9990
6. Dirk Nowitzki 0.9867
7. Paul Pierce 0.9827
8. Ray Allen 0.9663
9. Chris Bosh 0.9484
10. Chris Paul 0.8911
11. Tony Parker 0.8319
12. Carmelo Anthony 0.8167
13. Dwight Howard 0.8072
14. Vince Carter 0.7678
15. Kevin Durant 0.7203
16. Pau Gasol 0.6127
17. Tracy McGrady 0.5822
18. Steve Nash 0.5627
19. Amar'e Stoudemire 0.5560

the bold wont make the HOF

and dont you find it funny how durant has .10 more points on his HOF possibility than gasol when gasols nearly finished his career and durant has barely started his

plus.. durant hasnt done anything yet except win scoring titles. and even if his career ended tomorrow he'd have no chance ( with .10 points more than gasol )

infact. nash without his 2 mvps would have no shot at the HOF either

only guys who are hall of famers if they retired tomorrow on that list are

1. Kobe Bryant 1.0000
2. Tim Duncan 0.9999
3. LeBron James 0.9995
4. Dwyane Wade 0.9991
5. Kevin Garnett 0.9990
6. Dirk Nowitzki 0.9867
7. Paul Pierce 0.9827
8. Ray Allen 0.9663
9. Chris Bosh 0.9484
10. Chris Paul 0.8911
11. Tony Parker 0.8319

with a wild card exception for nash due to his mvps

which basically means you need around 0.80+ to make it

gasols nowhere close as far as NBA accolades

sorry. thanks for proving my point for me

:cheers:

The reason why Kobe is the only 100% HOFer is because Duncan, KG, Dirk AND GASOL are being penalized in that stat for HEIGHT.

After trying numerous models, my final model had seven predictor variables:

height (in inches)
last season indicator (1 if 1959-60 or before, 0 otherwise)
NBA points per game
NBA rebounds per game
NBA assists per game
NBA All-Star game selections
NBA championships won
All of the predictors listed above were significant at the 0.05 level. Other than height, all of the predictors had positive coefficients.

Using the author's method, the taller a player is, the more that's SUBTRACTED from this author's probability of being in the HOF. Note also that all-star game selections (basically a popularity contest) is used as a predictor but not MVPs or Finals MVPs. Please read author's criteria before using this as Gospel.

Yao Ming's Foot

10-14-2013, 11:51 PM

Yea.

Before coming to the Lakers. Gasol was a career 19/9/3 on around 57% TS 22 PER player capable of being the clear cut best player on a 50 win team.

The way Kobe fans talk about Gasol is just shocking.

Why is it shocking to you?

Before coming to the Heat. Bosh was a career 20/9/2 on around 57% TS 21 PER player capable of being the clear cut best player on a 47 win team.

Yet you like to pretend he's on par with Lamar Odom. :roll:

juju151111

10-14-2013, 11:56 PM

Why is it shocking to you?

Before coming to the Heat. Bosh was a career 20/9/2 on around 57% TS 21 PER player capable of being the clear cut best player on a 47 win team.

Yet you like to pretend he's on par with Lamar Odom. :roll:
I could of sworn he was talking about his role has a 3rd best player in the Heat system. The same system that has Gosh shoot jumpsuits all game every game. More specifically it was playoff performance.

Yao Ming's Foot

10-14-2013, 11:56 PM

Gotta give credit to the OP

Getting you clowns to qualify Pau Gasol as a HOFer as if that changes anything.

Even counting Pau as a HOFer you are left with Kobe ringing not once, not twice, not three times, not four times but five times with just one HOF teammate per title team.

Unmatched in history.

DMAVS41

10-15-2013, 12:36 AM

Why is it shocking to you?

Before coming to the Heat. Bosh was a career 20/9/2 on around 57% TS 21 PER player capable of being the clear cut best player on a 47 win team.

Yet you like to pretend he's on par with Lamar Odom. :roll:

In his 3rd option role in 2012 and 2013...he's been as impactful or less than Odom on the 09 and 10 Lakers

Also, Bosh isn't producing great like Gasol did in the playoffs. You think anyone would be saying anything about Bosh if he had a 20/11/4 playoffs? LOL

DMAVS41

10-15-2013, 12:43 AM

another person that has a problem with reading comprehension

:roll:

anyone can make the hall of fame

as an ambassador, coach, owner, executive, sponsor, international contributor, pioneer, nba player, wnba player etc...

kobe had no other legit nba hall of famer

gasols nba hof rating is 0.621

the minimum to make the hall of fame is 0.83-0.84

Steven Nash will for sure make the Hall. His rating is less than Gasol's.

Look at some of the other players on that list that made the Hall;

Dumars with a .4673

The fact that Dumars is in the Hall destroys you. It's over.

Gasol has better numbers...same number of titles...Dumars only played 14 seasons total

Dumars is in. That means Gasol is a lock on NBA play alone. End of story. There is no way you could have Dumars in the Hall of Fame and Gasol not in...would be idiotic.

Sorry.

Yao Ming's Foot

10-15-2013, 12:54 AM

In his 3rd option role in 2012 and 2013...he's been as impactful or less than Odom on the 09 and 10 Lakers

Also, Bosh isn't producing great like Gasol did in the playoffs. You think anyone would be saying anything about Bosh if he had a 20/11/4 playoffs? LOL

Not to mention the main reason Bosh hasn't been himself since the 11 playoffs was being forced out of his comfort zone by Wade and then Lebron.

He was a 24/11/2 59% TS 25 PER guy in the 2010 regular season.

And I bet you see him get back to producing very well if his idiotic coach can put him in the right position to excel.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9035099&postcount=30

:confusedshrug:

DMAVS41

10-15-2013, 12:59 AM

Not to mention the main reason Bosh hasn't been himself since the 11 playoffs was being forced out of his comfort zone by Wade and then Lebron.

He was a 24/11/2 59% TS 25 PER guy in the 2010 regular season.

And I bet you see him get back to producing very well if his idiotic coach can put him in the right position to excel.

:confusedshrug:

I don't think Bosh can perform well enough defensively to get the minutes that would get him back to performing like that.

But yes, actually, Bosh put into a better position could easily get back to producing 18/8/2 like he did in 11.

But you are confusing yourself. Gasol actually did play great in the playoffs. Bosh has yet to play on that Gasol level on both ends in the playoffs since coming to the Heat.

So it's not a good comparison at all. And Bosh didn't take heat much for the 11 playoffs when he performed well enough I guess.

But stop comparing a 20/11/4 player that also plays quality interior defense to a 13/8/1 player these last two years in the playoffs that struggles defensively.

juju151111

10-15-2013, 01:00 AM

DMAVS41

10-15-2013, 01:03 AM

Doesn't matter. His role on the offense is hit the open jumper and defense/rebs. Odom did Betterr or equal those specific years with Kobe.

This.

People are either just dumb...or they play dumb.

I have never said Odom is better than Bosh as the best player on a team. I've said that in the role of the third best player on a contender...they have a similar impact. I'd probably rather have Odom.

That is the argument. Not that Odom is a better player overall. It's about the role they play now.

You don't get extra points in a game because your 3rd option used to be better player or something. You dont' get extra points because he makes the all star game.

I want these morons to tell me how 12 and 13 Bosh in the playoffs is any better than 09 and 10 Odom.

They won't be able to. They'll have to talk about some nonsense about allstar games and what Bosh used to do.

Yao Ming's Foot

10-15-2013, 01:15 AM

I don't think Bosh can perform well enough defensively to get the minutes that would get him back to performing like that.

But yes, actually, Bosh put into a better position could easily get back to producing 18/8/2 like he did in 11.

But you are confusing yourself. Gasol actually did play great in the playoffs. Bosh has yet to play on that Gasol level on both ends in the playoffs since coming to the Heat.

So it's not a good comparison at all. And Bosh didn't take heat much for the 11 playoffs when he performed well enough I guess.

But stop comparing a 20/11/4 player that also plays quality interior defense to a 13/8/1 player these last two years in the playoffs that struggles defensively.

I'm going to have see some "evidence" to support these statements.

As usual you are already off on some bizarre tangent.

In what way do Pau Gasol's regular season stats prior to joining the Lakers differ from Chris Bosh's prior to joining the Heat such that criticising one is "shocking" while the other is one of your favorite targets?

Yao Ming's Foot

10-15-2013, 01:18 AM

This.

People are either just dumb...or they play dumb.

I have never said Odom is better than Bosh as the best player on a team. I've said that in the role of the third best player on a contender...they have a similar impact. I'd probably rather have Odom.

That is the argument. Not that Odom is a better player overall. It's about the role they play now.

You don't get extra points in a game because your 3rd option used to be better player or something. You dont' get extra points because he makes the all star game.

I want these morons to tell me how 12 and 13 Bosh in the playoffs is any better than 09 and 10 Odom.

They won't be able to. They'll have to talk about some nonsense about allstar games and what Bosh used to do.

I would say in this instance I am playing dumb since I completely used your own words and just substituted stats and names. You are arguing against yourself and calling yourself stupid in the process. Good job.

DMAVS41

10-15-2013, 01:28 AM

I would say in this instance I am playing dumb since I completely used your own words and just substituted stats and names. You are arguing against yourself and calling yourself stupid in the process. Good job.

Nope.

You just can't understand a simple argument and are confusing things as usual.

I have compared Bosh in 12 and 13 in the playoffs to Odom in 09 and 10.

Do you dispute that? Please answer.

What Gasol previously did is brought up because many Kobe fans act like he was nothing without Kobe. That is not similar at all to the Bosh stuff.

I really just think you don't have the intellect to follow simple conversations.

Kobe stan: "Gasol sucked before Kobe...0-12 in the playoffs...bla bla bla"

Rational person: "Gasol was actually really good before coming to the Lakers...he put up quality numbers and proved he was capable of being the clear cut best player on teams making the playoffs...and won 50 games"

That is not at all what is going on with Bosh. Nobody ever says that Bosh sucked before he joined the Heat. Bosh gets hammered for his play in the playoffs these last two years.

Again I ask. Are you really this stupid or are you just acting like a moron?

RoundMoundOfReb

10-15-2013, 01:36 AM

Gasol is a hall of famer. You're just going to have to come to terms with that.

Yao Ming's Foot

10-15-2013, 01:47 AM

Nope.

You just can't understand a simple argument and are confusing things as usual.

I have compared Bosh in 12 and 13 in the playoffs to Odom in 09 and 10.

Do you dispute that? Please answer.

What Gasol previously did is brought up because many Kobe fans act like he was nothing without Kobe. That is not similar at all to the Bosh stuff.

I really just think you don't have the intellect to follow simple conversations.

Kobe stan: "Gasol sucked before Kobe...0-12 in the playoffs...bla bla bla"

Rational person: "Gasol was actually really good before coming to the Lakers...he put up quality numbers and proved he was capable of being the clear cut best player on teams making the playoffs...and won 50 games"

That is not at all what is going on with Bosh. Nobody ever says that Bosh sucked before he joined the Heat. Bosh gets hammered for his play in the playoffs these last two years.

Again I ask. Are you really this stupid or are you just acting like a moron?

Isn't this thread about Gasol's HOF chances ignoring his international resume?

Why is it "shocking" to question that?

Bosh gets hammered for following coaches orders and being played suboptimally for his individual stats. The same excuse you volunteered already for Gasol in recent years. Your cognitive dissonance is amazing.

DMAVS41

10-15-2013, 01:53 AM

Isn't this thread about Gasol's HOF chances ignoring his international resume?

Why is it "shocking" to question that?

Bosh gets hammered for following coaches orders and being played suboptimally for his individual stats. The same excuse you volunteered already for Gasol in recent years. Your cognitive dissonance is amazing.

It's shocking that Kobe fans refuse to acknowledge how good Gasol was before and during his time on the Lakers up until the 11 playoffs. He was great.

12 and 13 Gasol and 12 and 13 Bosh are in similar situations in that they are being forced out of their comfort zone.

So I don't follow. We all know Bosh is better than what he's been able to do these last 2 years. The problem is that he can't play the role the Heat need him to all that well. that is why his minutes have been drastically reduced...and his value as a player has dropped from what it once was.

very similar to Gasol...

So again I don't follow. We aren't comparing 12/13 Gasol to 12/13 Bosh. Gasol didn't win in 12 and 13.

He won in 09 and 10...when he was great.

You really need to take a logic and reasoning class or something. This is getting out of hand.

Yao Ming's Foot

10-15-2013, 02:06 AM

It's shocking that Kobe fans refuse to acknowledge how good Gasol was before and during his time on the Lakers up until the 11 playoffs. He was great.

12 and 13 Gasol and 12 and 13 Bosh are in similar situations in that they are being forced out of their comfort zone.

So I don't follow. We all know Bosh is better than what he's been able to do these last 2 years. The problem is that he can't play the role the Heat need him to all that well. that is why his minutes have been drastically reduced...and his value as a player has dropped from what it once was.

very similar to Gasol...

So again I don't follow. We aren't comparing 12/13 Gasol to 12/13 Bosh. Gasol didn't win in 12 and 13.

He won in 09 and 10...when he was great.

You really need to take a logic and reasoning class or something. This is getting out of hand.

Link?

Who said he wasn't any good? I see Laker fans volunteering his pre Lakers awards and accolades. At worst someone called him a "soft playoff choker" prior to joining the Lakers which is undoubtedly true. Then "good" in 2009 and 2010. And "fell off" since then. Which part of that is shocking?

You stay throwing out logic class insults while making strawman arguments. :facepalm

Cali Syndicate

10-15-2013, 02:17 AM

So besides Dwight, who on the 09 magic is a hof? What about melo and the 09 nuggets? What about Lebron and the 09 cavs?

Sure Kobe and the lakers won, but they were easily the best all around talented and coached team.

Same goes for 2010 outside of the celtics. Suns two hall of farmers? Nope. Magic? Perhaps with Vince. Still, Pau was playing top grade basketball at his peak. Vince was right at the end of whatever prime was left.

Beating the celtics was epic though.

DMAVS41

10-15-2013, 02:22 AM

Link?

Who said he wasn't any good? I see Laker fans volunteering his pre Lakers awards and accolades. At worst someone called him a "soft playoff choker" prior to joining the Lakers which is undoubtedly true. Then "good" in 2009 and 2010. And "fell off" since then. Which part of that is shocking?

You stay throwing out logic class insults while making strawman arguments. :facepalm

Strawman? Check this very thread.

Yao Ming's Foot

10-15-2013, 02:24 AM

Strawman? Check this very thread.

Show me the quotes. :confusedshrug:

DMAVS41

10-15-2013, 02:39 AM

Show me the quotes. :confusedshrug:

What quotes? The point of this thread is to diminish Gasol...

Why do we have to play dumb all the time? This thread's sole purpose is to diminish Gasol and prop up Kobe...get real.

ispin69

10-15-2013, 02:43 AM

Kobe stans are so two faced. :facepalm

Yao Ming's Foot

10-15-2013, 02:48 AM

What quotes? The point of this thread is to diminish Gasol...

Why do we have to play dumb all the time? This thread's sole purpose is to diminish Gasol and prop up Kobe...get real.

"Shocking" quotes that show "Kobe fans" "refusing to acknowledge how good Gasol was".

Gasol is 0-16 without Kobe. He was a playoff choker. He has put up poor numbers recently. These statements shouldn't be shocking. It's simply the truth.

DMAVS41

10-15-2013, 02:55 AM

"Shocking" quotes that show "Kobe fans" "refusing to acknowledge how good Gasol was".

Gasol is 0-16 without Kobe. He was a playoff choker. He has put up poor numbers recently. These statements shouldn't be shocking. It's simply the truth.

I'm talking about the stance that Gasol was nothing without Kobe. A common stance.

I'm talking about people making threads about Kobe winning without a hall of fame teammate in 09 and 10. Which simply ISN'T the truth.

I'm talking about people like you that go off on tangents about Bosh on the Heat while Bosh has done nothing remotely approaching what Gasol did in 09 and 10...etc.

You want the facts?

Simple. Pau Gasol is a sure fire Hall of Famer on his NBA career alone.

End thread

Yao Ming's Foot

10-15-2013, 03:21 AM

I'm talking about the stance that Gasol was nothing without Kobe. A common stance.

I'm talking about people making threads about Kobe winning without a hall of fame teammate in 09 and 10. Which simply ISN'T the truth.

I'm talking about people like you that go off on tangents about Bosh on the Heat while Bosh has done nothing remotely approaching what Gasol did in 09 and 10...etc.

You want the facts?

Simple. Pau Gasol is a sure fire Hall of Famer on his NBA career alone.

End thread

Nobody said he was nothing without Kobe. That's why its called a strawman argument. You claim Kobe fans said something extreme that they never said and attempt to argue against the extreme stance that you just created out of thin air.

And on NBA alone...it's very close.

Which is it? "Sure fire"? or "very close"? You can't even maintain consistency on the same topic within the same thread and you wonder why nobody takes you seriously?

ispin69

10-15-2013, 03:37 AM

Don't bother arguing with "Yao Ming's Foot".
He's another Kobe nutrider troll.
Straight to the ignore bin.

Doranku

10-15-2013, 03:46 AM

I feel bad for Gasol. Even though he can play extremely soft, I feel like he's a very likable player and guy in general. Dude has great basketball fundamentals, isn't a diva f@ggot like a certain other elite big man who wore purple and gold last year, and seems like a very down to earth guy.

Not only that, but his playoff performances during '09, '10, and even '08 sans that Boston series are largely overlooked. Guy was a phenomenal second option and was huge for the Lakers year after year.

Even management treats him like shit, constantly putting him on the trading block despite all he has given to the franchise. I realize that the NBA is a business, but the amount of times the dude has been rumored to be in a trade is absurd.

Yet he doesn't make a big scene about it like a loser such as Dwight would, he just continues to play basketball. Gotta respect the man for being a professional at the very least.

qrich

10-15-2013, 03:50 AM

"Shocking" quotes that show "Kobe fans" "refusing to acknowledge how good Gasol was".

Gasol is 0-16 without Kobe. He was a playoff choker. He has put up poor numbers recently. These statements shouldn't be shocking. It's simply the truth.

Just like Kobe missed the playoffs or was one and done without a top front court and a playoff choker as well, as he let a 3-1 strong hold slip away.

Doranku

10-15-2013, 04:10 AM

Just like Kobe missed the playoffs or was one and done without a top front court and a playoff choker as well, as he let a 3-1 strong hold slip away.

Your team has never played a meaningful game in their entire franchise's existence, what would you know about the playoffs? :rolleyes:

qrich

10-15-2013, 04:16 AM

Your team has never played a meaningful game in their entire franchise's existence, what would you know about the playoffs? :rolleyes:

Great response to bring in something irrelevant to the post that was made :bowdown:

Shall we talk about ancestors now? :rolleyes:

Doranku

10-15-2013, 04:29 AM

Great response to bring in something irrelevant to the post that was made :bowdown:

Shall we talk about ancestors now? :rolleyes:

In what world is a 7 seed losing to a 2 seed "choking"? Yeah, they were up 3-1.. because Kobe hit a game tying shot and a game winning shot in Game 4 to put the series there.

Then he proceeded to shoot 50+% in the remaining 3 games including a 50 point outburst in a game that they were one rebound away from winning.

That's not choking, sorry.

qrich

10-15-2013, 04:36 AM

In what world is a 7 seed losing to a 2 seed "choking"? Yeah, they were up 3-1.. because Kobe hit a game tying shot and a game winning shot in Game 4 to put the series there.

Then he proceeded to shoot 50+% in the remaining 3 games including a 50 point outburst in a game that they were one rebound away from winning.

That's not choking, sorry.

Three opportunities to close out a series.

Three strike-outs including a 17 point loss and a 21 point loss.

But hey, I guess only higher seeds can choke, not lower ones, so even if an 8th seed is up by 19 with 3 minutes left, it wouldn't be considered a choke :confusedshrug:

Doranku

10-15-2013, 04:38 AM

Three opportunities to close out a series.

Three strike-outs including a 17 point loss and a 21 point loss.

But hey, I guess only higher seeds can choke, not lower ones, so even if an 8th seed is up by 19 with 3 minutes left, it wouldn't be considered a choke :confusedshrug:

Being up 19 with 3 minutes left and losing two games on the road and one at home to a superior team are two different things.

Do you realize how bad that Lakers team was, and what a miracle it was for them to even win 3 games in the first place?

kennethgriffin

10-15-2013, 09:49 AM

Steven Nash will for sure make the Hall. His rating is less than Gasol's.

Look at some of the other players on that list that made the Hall;

Dumars with a .4673

The fact that Dumars is in the Hall destroys you. It's over.

Gasol has better numbers...same number of titles...Dumars only played 14 seasons total

Dumars is in. That means Gasol is a lock on NBA play alone. End of story. There is no way you could have Dumars in the Hall of Fame and Gasol not in...would be idiotic.

Sorry.

The average player who makes the hall is .83

Nash has 2 mvps and is top 5 all time in assists. Made multiple 1st teams

Hes also statistically the greatest shooter ever.

Dumars is a defensive legend and finals mvp

Pau gasol is not top 50 at any aspect of basketball. Nore does he have any awards or 1st teams. He only has 1 second team

Theres ways to make the hall without a great rating. But pau doesnt have any of them

Keep trying ;)

3peated

10-15-2013, 10:02 AM

love your threads, topics are always so diverse

DMAVS41

10-15-2013, 01:49 PM

The average player who makes the hall is .83

Nash has 2 mvps and is top 5 all time in assists. Made multiple 1st teams

Hes also statistically the greatest shooter ever.

Dumars is a defensive legend and finals mvp

Pau gasol is not top 50 at any aspect of basketball. Nore does he have any awards or 1st teams. He only has 1 second team

Theres ways to make the hall without a great rating. But pau doesnt have any of them

Keep trying ;)

It doesn't matter what the average is if you have guys well below him on that formula.

Dumars has a finals mvp, but Gasol has better career numbers.

You really think the people voting will just ignore everything and only focus on the limited stuff you are looking at?

Nah...Gasol would make it on his NBA career alone.

I'd love to hear the argument for Dumars in and Gasol out. Solely because a finals MVP? Not good enough for people that actually know basketball.

NumberSix

10-15-2013, 02:25 PM

It doesn't matter what the average is if you have guys well below him on that formula.

Dumars has a finals mvp, but Gasol has better career numbers.

You really think the people voting will just ignore everything and only focus on the limited stuff you are looking at?

Nah...Gasol would make it on his NBA career alone.

I'd love to hear the argument for Dumars in and Gasol out. Solely because a finals MVP? Not good enough for people that actually know basketball.
Dumars shut down MJ. True story.

2LeTTeRS

10-15-2013, 02:56 PM

Wait do you even understand what you've posted? First you make this post --

just looked up the minimum average needed to make the HOF based on past inductees and their score

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/hof_prob.html

Hall of Fame probabilities are presented for all players with a minimum of 400 NBA games played. Although it can be risky to make predictions for active players, you can think of these probabilities as answering the question "If this player retired today, what is the probability he would be elected to the Hall of Fame?". The model was built using a pool of 750 players. One method to assess classification accuracy is to compare the estimated Hall of Fame probability for the case to the actual result. Of the 750 players, 89 had been elected to the Hall of Fame and 661 had not. If the player's predicted probability of election was greater than or equal to 0.5, I predicted that he was in the Hall of Fame. Of the 89 players in the Hall of Fame, 74 were correctly classified (83.1%) and 15 were not (16.9%). Of the 661 players not in the Hall of Fame, 651 were correctly classified (98.5%) and 10 were not (1.5%). Overall, 725 of the 750 players (96.7%) were correctly classified by the model.

gasols .60 isnt enough

A blurb that explicitly says that with Gasol's 60% probability basketball-reference.com would predict that the player would make the HOF; and has cited statistical proof stating he's right over 95% of the time.

Yet you still have nerve to post this?

gasols nba hof rating is 0.621

the minimum to make the hall of fame is 0.83-0.84

NumberSix

10-15-2013, 02:57 PM

Wait do you even understand what you've posted? The blurb explicitly says that with Gasol's 60% probability basketball-reference.com would predict that the player would make the HOF; and has cited statistical proof stating he's right over 95% of the time.
60% of the time he's right 95% of the time.

TheBigVeto

10-15-2013, 07:18 PM

Pau Gasol is a legit HOFer.

Euroleague

10-15-2013, 07:25 PM

aj1987

10-15-2013, 07:28 PM

Stop trolling asshole.

Gasol does not have the international accomplishments to make it off just international career. He does not stack up to the other guys that made it solely on that.

He would make it based off BOTH NBA career and that.

STOP BEING A DAMN TROLL.
Hey Euroleague, Kenneth believes that Kobe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Spanoulis. What do you think about that?

Euroleague

10-15-2013, 07:28 PM

not an nba hall of famer though

:oldlol:

international contributions elect :bowdown:

There is no such thing as an "NBA Hall of Famer" you freaking idiot.

Euroleague

10-15-2013, 07:30 PM

the only man to win multiple championships without another NBA HOF team mate......

The NBA Hall of Fame only exists in your delusional mind. It does not exist in the real world.

Idiot.

Euroleague

10-15-2013, 07:41 PM

Since there is no NBA hall of fame, are you saying that the HOF commitee will specifically cite Gasol's international career as the reason for his induction? It's a legitimate question because I don't know how that works, but it seems rather unlikely especially for a guy who had a long productive NBA career.

It does not work like that at all.

He is just a mega troll spewing total and complete BULLSHIT.

EVERY player that played in the NBA is classed as an NBA player.

Every player that did not play in the NBA is classed as an international player.

Gasol is therefore classed as a NBA player.

EVERY player from North America is classed as a North American player.

Every player from outside North America is classed as as a foreign player.

Therefore Gasol is classed as a foreign player.

There can be separate voting committees. So, Gasol would obviously be under the NBA voting committee, just like every other NBA player, however, he could be placed under the foreign player one.

If he was voted in under international, then only one guy per year can get in under that.

But he would not be voted in just for "international play". No way. Because the guys like Dalipagic, Kosic, Belov, Schmidt that are in there solely for international play............the standard is incredibly high, almost unattainable, and takes many many years to get elected. Schmidt just made it and Galis still has not even made it.

Gasol's career solely on "international play" is not even remotely close to those above guys. So this whole premise is complete BULLSHIT.

If he got elected, it would be like Sabonis or Divac, or Petrovic, based on entire career, based on body of work, INCLUDING NBA. He does not have the resume, nor the credentials to make it just on "international play" - at least not for the next 20-30 years anyway.

Besides that, it should also be clarified that the voting committee for the foreign players is all former NBA players from what I remember almost all of them are Americans anyway.

So this is a total myth that somehow there is this different imaginary criteria for European players. How the **** can the criteria and voting preference be different, when American NBA players are the ones voting on whether or not European players make it anyway?

This guy is just trolling like crazy.

Euroleague

10-15-2013, 07:45 PM

its possible

kobe may play 5 more years. pau 3-4 if his legs/feet dont hold up

and itel be as an international contributor :cheers:

No it won't. Because Gasol isn't even eligible for any such thing. He's only eligible to enter as a player.

He's not even eligible to enter as a contributor you freaking moron.

If you think Pau Gasol had even 1/10 the impact on basketball development culturally in Spain that Yao did in China (which is why Yao is eligible for that) then you are replacing gabepizza as the new official biggest imbecile in this forum.

Pau Gasol has not done one single thing in his career to be eligible to make the hall of fame as a contributor. Maybe if he had a very long further career in the game for like another 30 years or so.................

Euroleague

10-15-2013, 07:48 PM

I'm pretty sure that 14+ years in the NBA with 2 titles (as an all-star) assures that he won't be an "international contributor". It's not as if he's Arvydas Sabonis. Gasol has had a terrific NBA career.

He just made that up. Gasol isn't even eligible for that.

For example the Hall of Fame recently said that Sarunas Marciulionis could be eligible for that IF he wanted to be, ONLY because of his "extraordinary contributions to the sport of basketball in the nation of Lithuania"

as in, he is probably the single most important figure in the history of the country in terms of the history of the sport, created the league, created the freaking national team, etc.

And even then............they HESITATED to even offer it to him.

And this clown is trying to pretend that freaking Pau Gasol would be eligible for that.

:lol :oldlol: :rolleyes: :facepalm

kennethgriffin

10-15-2013, 07:49 PM

The NBA Hall of Fame only exists in your delusional mind. It does not exist in the real world.

Idiot.

you're the idiot

i didn't say theres an nba hall of fame

i said gasol wouldn't be going in based on his nba resume

hense... not a legit nba hall of famer

my point wasnt a factual classification. more of a metaphorical one

but there actually is class's of hall of famers .. yao ming played a long career in the nba. but he won't be going in as an nba player. hes elected as an international contributor to the game

now i agree gasol isnt a hall of fame international player either

i think hes got half of a hall of fame resume in the nba. and half of a hall of fame resume in international competition

if he does make it then whatever. but i still say its quite the loop hole for him to make it just based on some meaningless euro gold/olympic silver boost

as if a few international medals is anywhere close to being worth all the 1st team awards or allstar years hes missing

how hard is it to be the best player on spain? probably about half as difficult as being one of the 10 best players in basketball for a decade ( which he's nowhere close to being )

i think he had a good 3 year run. before that he was nowhere close to great. and after 2010 he dropped off the map

paus not a hall of famer IMO

and thats my opinion.

if rodman and reggie were 2nd ballot.. then pau will probably be left off the ballot for 20 years.. then when he gets in nobody will give a sh*t anyway

Euroleague

10-15-2013, 07:49 PM

kennethgriffin

10-15-2013, 07:54 PM

There is no NBA Hall of fame genius.

look up

Euroleague

10-15-2013, 08:02 PM

you're the idiot

i didn't say theres an nba hall of fame

i said gasol wouldn't be going in based on his nba resume

hense... not a legit nba hall of famer

my point wasnt a factual classification. more of a metaphorical one

but there actually is class's of hall of famers .. yao ming played a long career in the nba. but he won't be going in as an nba player. hes elected as an international contributor to the game

now i agree gasol isnt a hall of fame international player either

i think hes got half of a hall of fame resume in the nba. and half of a hall of fame resume in international competition

if he does make it then whatever. but i still say its quite the loop hole for him to make it just based on some meaningless euro gold/olympic silver boost

as if a few international medals is anywhere close to being worth all the 1st team awards or allstar years hes missing

how hard is it to be the best player on spain? probably about half as difficult as being one of the 10 best players in basketball for a decade ( which he's nowhere close to being )

i think he had a good 3 year run. before that he was nowhere close to great. and after 2010 he dropped off the map

paus not a hall of famer IMO

and thats my opinion.

if rodman and reggie were 2nd ballot.. then pau will probably be left off the ballot for 20 years.. then when he gets in nobody will give a sh*t anyway

You are a moron.

kennethgriffin

10-15-2013, 08:13 PM

You are a moron.

you're just mad cause you assumed i was saying something that i wasn't. thought you'd look real awesome proving someone wrong with your limited knowledge by propping up a widely known fact that there is no actual nba hall of fame. but now that you have nothing to argue with you've resorted to a single sentence name calling response.... sorry man. better luck next time

and btw

nba > euroleague

nba inducted hall of famers > international inducted hall of famers

DMAVS41

10-15-2013, 09:31 PM

you're just mad cause you assumed i was saying something that i wasn't. thought you'd look real awesome proving someone wrong with your limited knowledge by propping up a widely known fact that there is no actual nba hall of fame. but now that you have nothing to argue with you've resorted to a single sentence name calling response.... sorry man. better luck next time

and btw

nba > euroleague

nba inducted hall of famers > international inducted hall of famers

But he would get in on his NBA resume alone.

Dumars got in. Gasol is getting in. End of story.

97 bulls

10-15-2013, 09:55 PM

But he would get in on his NBA resume alone.

Dumars got in. Gasol is getting in. End of story.
Gasols career is similar to Kevin McHales as well

kNicKz

10-15-2013, 09:57 PM

Gasols career is similar to Kevin McHales as well

I just cringed. Kevin McHale is one the best post scorers the game has ever seen....his career is nothing like Gasols......he is a first ballot pick...Gasol is a fringe international pick.

That was disrespectful...

97 bulls

10-15-2013, 10:07 PM

I just cringed. Kevin McHale is one the best post scorers the game has ever seen....his career is nothing like Gasols......he is a first ballot pick...Gasol is a fringe international pick.

That was disrespectful...
I said career. And Gasol is an excellent post player in his own right. But compare their accomplishments, theyre very similar

Mchale has more rings 3-2

All-NBA team Gasol has him beat.

Gasol won rookie of the year. Mchale has two sixthman trophies.

Mchale kills as far as All-Defense teams.

Their stats are similar. Mchale is the better scorer and Gasol is the better rebounder and passer.

Gasol did much better leading a team. But granted Mchale only did that the one year Bird was out

How is this an insult to Mchale?

TheMarkMadsen

10-15-2013, 10:54 PM

Gasols career is similar to Kevin McHales as well

:roll:

DMAVS41

10-16-2013, 12:55 AM

I just cringed. Kevin McHale is one the best post scorers the game has ever seen....his career is nothing like Gasols......he is a first ballot pick...Gasol is a fringe international pick.

That was disrespectful...

McHale was the better player, but it's not cringe worthy to claim Gasol has had a similar career to McHale.

This is my exact point.

You don't think prime Gasol could have had a similar stretch of great play like McHale did from 85 to 90? Or whatever his prime was...

Put it this way...Pau Gasol is a hell of a lot closer to Kevin McHale...than he is to not being in the Hall of Fame.

kennethgriffin

10-16-2013, 02:01 AM

that mchale comment proved who the troll is

LA Lakers

10-16-2013, 02:48 AM

Better question, besides Mike's Bulls and Lebron's Heat, what teams have won a championship or multiple championships without an elite frontcourt? In the last 30 years?

LA Lakers

10-16-2013, 02:50 AM

Guys wont automatically double Gasol. Give McHale the ball in the post and watch Kareem and half of Showtime swarm him.

kennethgriffin

10-16-2013, 02:54 AM

Better question, besides Mike's Bulls and Lebron's Heat, what teams have won a championship or multiple championships without an elite frontcourt? In the last 30 years?

never really understood this

rodman is a rebounding/defensive legend/HOF'r

grant was an allstar and great defensive player

pippen could also defend SF's and PF's.. and hes a HOF'r and defensive legend

rodman locked up shaq.. so he could defend any center

pippen was a post up scoring machine

:confusedshrug:

people forget how long pippen was. he could post up anyone..

pippen and rodman combined >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gasol as far as post up scoring or inside defense goes

bynum didnt play at all for those 2 rings

odom never made an allstar team

bizil

10-16-2013, 03:01 AM

I think Pau gets in the HOF. Sure he's never really been a dominant alpha dog like some of the other great PF's. But Pau is still a very good scorer who's a 20-10 guy at his best. And in terms of skill level, Pau is one of the most talented PF's ever. Great post game, one of the top 7-8 most skilled PF's ever down there. He's also one of the most skilled passing PF's ever as well. Those two rings and international stuff will get him in. Even to this day, he's a top five player currently at PF or at C. Whichever spot he plays.

bizil

10-16-2013, 03:04 AM

McHale was the better player, but it's not cringe worthy to claim Gasol has had a similar career to McHale.

This is my exact point.

You don't think prime Gasol could have had a similar stretch of great play like McHale did from 85 to 90? Or whatever his prime was...

Put it this way...Pau Gasol is a hell of a lot closer to Kevin McHale...than he is to not being in the Hall of Fame.

Agreed! The only PF's I can say FOR SURE are better on the block than Pau are McHale and Duncan. I'm talking in terms of footwork, craftiness with both hands, etc. Other than that, Pau has a case over any PF on the block. But I concur Mchale was better because he was more dominant. And had the ability to defend SF-C.

bizil

10-16-2013, 03:06 AM

Guys wont automatically double Gasol. Give McHale the ball in the post and watch Kareem and half of Showtime swarm him.

I agree. But I think that's because McHale was simply more dominant than Pau. But Pau is still one of the premier low post PF's ever. McHale and Duncan are two guys better than Pau on the block. But after than Pau's name should come up soon for PF's on the block.

LA Lakers

10-16-2013, 03:12 AM

Horace Grant was a Chris Bosh type.Could do everything and do it well, even had an elbow shot, but I wouldn't call him and Cunningham elite like McHale, or Kareem, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem etc etc. Lets not get carried away. Grant was a great 3rd option on a team that had the greatest basketball player of all time, so that makes him pretty damn good, but still wouldn't put him in a league with other forwards or centers mentioned. And Mikes 2nd repeat were with guys like Australian Luc Longley and Bill Wennington, need I say more? Odom was a stud and so was Gasol and Bynum was always healthy enough come playoff time to make a little bit of a difference. Not like the Kobe/Shaq duo but still. And no one ever "locked up" Shaq, not Rodman, not anyone. They may have harassed him, or pestered him, but he never got locked up. And when he started breaking down after Phoenix and Cleveland journeyman/ ring chasing years that was simply age and wear and tear taking its toll.

LA Lakers

10-16-2013, 03:23 AM

The thing the 90s Bulls had going for them was what every great team needs: Depth. Ive mentioned this before, Toni Kukoc was coming off the bench When you have a guy like Kukoc coming off the bench you have a solid unit. Same with Miami, they are stacked. Christ, Ray Allen and Battier? Helps when you have the best player in the world on a stacked team, too. I don't care what anyone says, those repeat Lakers were stacked too. We had Ariza. Lose Ariza, pickup Artest. We had Farmar coming off the bench for Christ sake. Three 7 footers, yall! Three really good 7 footers.