Was Bird the worst defender to ever be on the All NBA Defensive team?

[Bigsmoke]

:confusedshrug:

[avonbarksdale]

inb4 kobe

[plowking]

No. Chris Paul has 3 all defensive first teams. Let that sink in.

Also, Clifford Robinson made teams, and I always thought he was a particularly lousy defender than got exposed on backdoor cuts all day. Reminds me of Melo and Durant in that regard.

[KyleKong]

No. Chris Paul has 3 all defensive first teams. Let that sink in.


CP3 is quick with his footwork against other PGs and is a lane thief and a picket pocket.

[chips93]

cp3 is a very good defender. hes obviously a little small, but its not like teams go at him in the post.

[plowking]

CP3 is quick with his footwork against other PGs and is a lane thief and a picket pocket.

Hes great at lanes and pick pocket, but he gives up the lane far too easy, and bigger guards do back him down. I just don't think he impacts the game enough on that side of the court to ever merit a selection. You have guards like Wade, Bradley, etc who can defend 1-3, and put up decent stats to boot.

I just don't see how a guard like Paul could ever merit a selection over Wade.

[LikeABosh]

Kobe being in All NBA defensive teams since 09' is a joke

[Kblaze8855]

As AI said years ago Larry Hughes made all D just by gambling in passing lanes the same was Iverson himself got hated on for by some.

[fpliii]

Bird was a very good help defender, definitely not the worst player to be named All-D.

The worst selections are generally star players who get it (politics) or once-great defenders who have long since declined.

[chips93]

wade's effort is extremely inconsistent

wade at his best might be the best defensive guard in the league, but he doesnt bring it as consistently as cp3, imo.

there arent really any pgs who can take advantage of cp3's size disadvantage, except westbrook at times


As AI said years ago Larry Hughes made all D just by gambling in passing lanes the same was Iverson himself got hated on for by some.

do you think that could happen today? a poor defender who just gambles, and trick coaches into thinking hes a good defender?

aside from some guys getting onto the defensive teams based on reputation, i think they are pretty good.

[plowking]

wade's effort is extremely inconsistent

wade at his best might be the best defensive guard in the league, but he doesnt bring it as consistently as cp3, imo.

there arent really any pgs who can take advantage of cp3's size disadvantage, except westbrook at times



do you think that could happen today? a poor defender who just gambles, and trick coaches into thinking hes a good defender?

aside from some guys getting onto the defensive teams based on reputation, i think they are pretty good.

Bigger guards do go at him. Deron always plays him well. And I still remember Billups taking it to him in the playoffs where NO got done by 40 something points.

[Asukal]

Kobe got a couple more based on reputation alone... :rolleyes:

[get these NETS]

idea of ANY of those 1980s beast small forwards making all defense is a joke

great..perhaps greatest era for small forward play (offensively)..but NONE of those guys played defense.....except for moncrief


idea that bird was a good help defender....is a joke

people see a highlight reel of Bird making key steals in the playoffs and accept that he was a good help defender

those 1980s threes abused each other and all played matador defense..including and especially Larry Bird

[russwest0]

LeBron and Bird are the first two that come to mind

[russwest0]

idea of ANY of those 1980s beast small forwards making all defense is a joke

great..perhaps greatest era for small forward play (offensively)..but NONE of those guys played defense.....except for moncrief


idea that bird was a good help defender....is a joke

people see a highlight reel of Bird making key steals in the playoffs and accept that he was a good help defender

those 1980s threes abused each other and all played matador defense..including and especially Larry Bird

Sounds eerily similar to another player I know...

[Greg Oden 50]

:confusedshrug:
LEBRON IS :rockon:

[chips93]

Bigger guards do go at him. Deron always plays him well. And I still remember Billups taking it to him in the playoffs where NO got done by 40 something points.

yeah, thats fair enough. i got mixed up and was thinking about cp3 today, and not the past defensive selections he got

[get these NETS]

Sounds eerily similar to another player I know...


highlight reel of Bird making key steals in playoffs is about 10-15 plays long......though

pippen, a legit all defensive selection at same position made that many key steals each regular season year....and each playoff run

legit great defenders make 15 of those plays per year and about that many per playoff run

Bird was a Superstar player, but reporters and fans hate to acknowledge that he wasn't a good defender

in fact , never heard the terms "man defender/help defender" until Bird's name came up on hoops shows..

You're either a good defensive player or you aren't.


dennis johnson, who was NO decathlete, was a great defender on those Celtics teams....instead of people just saying that Bird wasn't a good defender..they make excuses or harp on him being a good "help' defender

I call BS....

[fpliii]

highlight reel of Bird making key steals in playoffs is about 10-15 plays long......though

pippen, a legit all defensive selection at same position made that many key steals each regular season year....and each playoff run

legit great defenders make 15 of those plays per year and about that many per playoff run

Bird was a Superstar player, but reporters and fans hate to acknowledge that he wasn't a good defender

in fact , never heard the terms "man defender/help defender" until Bird's name came up on hoops shows..

You're either a good defensive player or you aren't.


dennis johnson, who was NO decathlete, was a great defender on those Celtics teams....instead of people just saying that Bird wasn't a good defender..they make excuses or harp on him being a good "help' defender

I call BS....

Are you serious?

[Thorpesaurous]

Shaq made a few and he was downright bad defensively in a few aspects for his entire career. Just an awfull PnR defender even when he was in shape. He had a few years where his rebounding and shot blocking were excellent thought, although even then not usually on the specialist level.

And Karl Malone made a bunch. I watched a ton of Karl Malone, and I just don't get that at all. He was a decent on ball guy, but beyond that not much. I'd take Bird as a defender over him all the time.

And there's a pretty good list of guys who made it primarily as help guys. Charles Oakley, and other guys like him, who are usually underrated defenders, right up until the moment someone decides their not.

I've always felt Yao Ming was a wildly underrated defender because his size prevented a lot of shots, but didn't get him much in the way of blocks.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Great joke, ignorant child :oldlol: If anything Bird should have more selections and some 1st team. Hype wasn't the thing back then, having a name and all as the best in the league, and there were guys with established reputations, players that played amazing D, making it in a forward spot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpEAZMT5t_U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s

Celtics went from one of the worst defensive teams to one of the best when he joined, with the same squad, he was 1st in DWS and 6th in DRtg.

He led the league in DWS 4x, top5 7x
2nd in DRtg in 1984, top10 6x

Led 3x in DWS in the playoffs, 7x in the top5
Led 2x in DRtg in the PS, 5x in the top5

Other forwards who can make such claims are Duncan, KG or Pippen, few more if any, and when he was healthy it was on the regular not once or twice.

Celtics always one of the best defensive teams in the league, if not the best, while he did it.

ALL-DEFENSIVE TEAMS USING DEFENSIVE WIN SHARES (5-year period):

2005-2010 (1st Team / 2nd Team)
C - Dwight Howard (31.4) / Marcus Camby (22.7)
F - Tim Duncan (29.5) / Kevin Garnett (25.0)
F - LeBron James (26.2) / Shawn Marion (21.1)
G - Kobe Bryant (18.3) / Manu Ginobili (17.9)
G - Jason Kidd (21.5) / Dwyane Wade (17.5)

2000-2005 (1st Team / 2nd Team)
C - Ben Wallace (36.9) / Jermaine O'Neal (22.9)
F - Tim Duncan (34.1) / Kenyon Martin (20.8)
F - Kevin Garnett (29.5) / Shawn Marion (26.2)
G - Allen Iverson (18.9) / Eddie Jones (17.9)
G - Jason Kidd (25.6) / Doug Christie (16.9)

1995-2000 (1st Team / 2nd Team)
C - Dikembe Mutombo (25.3) / Alonzo Mourning (24.2)
F - Shawn Kemp (23.3) / Grant Hill (22.0)
F - Karl Malone (22.6) / Scottie Pippen (20.3)
G - Gary Payton (18.9) / Michael Jordan (16.6)
G - Mookie Blaylock (17.4) / Eddie Jones (16.8)

1990-1995 (1st Team / 2nd Team)
C - Patrick Ewing (35.1) / David Robinson (34.3)
F - Karl Malone (27.6) / Charles Oakley (22.3)
F - Scottie Pippen (28.5) / Dennis Rodman (25.0)
G - Mookie Blaylock (18.1) / Clyde Drexler (17.9)
G - John Stockton (20.6) / Michael Jordan (17.4)

1985-1990 (1st Team / 2nd Team)
C - Hakeem Olajuwon (33.1) / Mark Eaton (25.5)
F - Karl Malone (27.5) / Charles Barkley (20.1)
F - Terry Cummings (20.5) / Larry Bird (19.1)
G - Michael Jordan (21.0) / Clyde Drexler (18.9)
G - John Stockton (21.0) / Fat Lever (20.6)

1980-1985 (1st Team / 2nd Team)
C - Jack Sikma (24.0) / Robert Parish (23.4)
F - Larry Bird (28.2) / Greg Ballard (21.6)
F - Julius Erving (22.4) / Buck Williams (20.1)
G - Sidney Moncrief (19.1) / Michael Ray Richardson (18.0)
G - Maurice Cheeks (18.6) / Dennis Johnson (18.0)

1975-1980 (1st Team / 2nd Team)
C - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (28.4) / Sam Lacey (21.4)
F - Elvin Hayes (25.3) / Truck Robinson (18.3)
F - George McGinnis (21.1) / Julius Erving (17.5)
G - Paul Westphal (13.9) / Don Buse (12.4)
G - Gus Williams (16.3) / Dennis Johnson (13.4)

1970-1975 (1st Team / 2nd Team)
C - Dave Cowens (34.4) / Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (32.5)
F - Elvin Hayes (35.6) / Paul Silas (25.8)
F - John Havlicek (27.2) / Dave DeBusschere (21.8)
G - Jerry Sloan (23.8) / Jo Jo White (21.7)
G - Walt Frazier (25.2) / Norm Van Lier (22.0)

1965-1970 (1st Team / 2nd Team)
C - Bill Russell (38.3) / Wilt Chamberlain (32.5)
F - Dave Debusschere (19.7) / Bailey Howell (17.5)
F - John Havlicek (23.7) / Billy Cunningham (18.6)
G - Jeff Mullins (13.3) / Sam Jones (13.2)
G - Hal Greer (17.3) / Jerry Sloan (12.8)

1960-1965 (1st Team / 2nd Team)
C - Bill Russell (65.9) / Wilt Chamberlain (33.5)
F - Tom Heinsohn (24.7) / Bob Pettit (21.6)
F - Tom Sanders (23.7) / Red Kerr (16.3)
G - Sam Jones (24.2) / Guy Rodgers (19.6)
G - K.C. Jones (25.4) / Bob Cousy (17.0)

1955-1960 (1st Team / 2nd Team)
C - Bill Russell (29.4) / Maurice Stokes (17.7)
F - Bob Pettit (18.0) / Red Kerr (15.6)
F - Dolph Schayes (19.5) / Tom Heinsohn (17.0)
G - Tom Gola (14.7) / Frank Ramsey (11.8)
G - Bob Cousy (23.3) / Bill Sharman (13.6)

Only forwards to lead for 5-years are Larry Bird and Elvin Hayes, but Elvin was a PF/C while Bird was a PF/SF.


Just a coincidence I guess, right? :confusedshrug: :facepalm

If it was someone doing that type of stuff today, like Lebron or something, people would just drool over it while calling him DPOY.

Look at how Larry impacts a game defensively: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUomvyawluI

\thread please

[97 bulls]

highlight reel of Bird making key steals in playoffs is about 10-15 plays long......though

pippen, a legit all defensive selection at same position made that many key steals each regular season year....and each playoff run

legit great defenders make 15 of those plays per year and about that many per playoff run

Bird was a Superstar player, but reporters and fans hate to acknowledge that he wasn't a good defender

in fact , never heard the terms "man defender/help defender" until Bird's name came up on hoops shows..

You're either a good defensive player or you aren't.


dennis johnson, who was NO decathlete, was a great defender on those Celtics teams....instead of people just saying that Bird wasn't a good defender..they make excuses or harp on him being a good "help' defender

I call BS....
It's most definitely BS. Just the fact that Bird always drew the opposition's worst scoring forward and Mchale took the better one regardless of position.

Ive never checked. But if Larry Bird was really the second best or top 4 defensive forwards of the early 80s then thats doesn't say much for defense at that time

[secund2nun]

Kobe got a couple more based on reputation alone... :rolleyes:

He got 2 finals MVP and 1 regular season MVP off of hype as well.

[SHAQisGOAT]

It's most definitely BS. Just the fact that Bird always drew the opposition's worst scoring forward and Mchale took the better one regardless of position.

Ive never checked. But if Larry Bird was really the second best or top 4 defensive forwards of the early 80s then thats doesn't say much for defense at that time

You don't even know what you're talking about, along with that other dude who you replied to(remember him saying DJ was an average athlete or something lol, must think he only played for the Celtics and only in the late 80s).

That only started to happen on the regular when Bird started to have back problems, and McHale only entered the starting lineup in 1986 also. Plus Bird was projected as a PF and more built to it, different type of PF but a PF, especially on D. Him guarding SFs and playing the wing much more was what he had to "give up" for McHale to enter the starting lineup.
Furthermore Bird's energy was needed for offense because he's one of the best at it, and on defense it was more for his amazing help D. How about Battier saving up Lebron, Pip or Harper for Jordan, so on and so on.. Let's dismiss them too for not always guarding the best player.

Yea by saying that you're just dismissing players like Michael Cooper, Sidney Moncrief, Bobby Jones, Paul Pressey, Dan Roundfield, Rodney McCray, even Jordan, Rodman or Pippen, not even going into centers. Stop being dumb.

[get these NETS]

all defensive player slots are to be reserved for players who offenses would tend to route their plays AWAY from......pg sees where player x is..and tends to run play AWAY from the man he is guarding..just smart basketball



same way shaqisgoat is routing his arguments away from me.....swallowing his pride and being smart

[SamuraiSWISH]

Bird is actually an underrated defender. He can defend PFs quite well.

[SHAQisGOAT]

all defensive player slots are to be reserved for players who offenses would tend to route their plays AWAY from......pg sees where player x is..and tends to run play AWAY from the man he is guarding..just smart basketball



same way shaqisgoat is routing his arguments away from me.....swallowing his pride and being smart

http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums/i427/Rishtopher/You-Salty.gif

Facts are there son, and they claim that Bird was a great defensive player, read my first post on this thread pls.

And from the eye-test (I actually watched lots of Bird's games, and was alive while he was at his best) I can confirm that Bird was one of the greatest team defenders ever, he was a good post-defender and could hold his own on the perimeter, people who know basketball and have seen enough from Bird know it. Plenty of his impact and reason why his teams always got better with him, was because of his defensive impact, and again the facts are there.

[get these NETS]

@shaqisgoat

Since title of the thread is about whether or not Bird is the worst defender ever named on all nba defensive team..let's look at the list of players selected to the ALL NBA team, not some offshoot list,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_All-Defensive_Team


there are several names on the list that I'm not familiar with pre-1980 but allow me to assume that some of the more obscure names are of guys who were primarily known for being defenders (and that's how they stayed in the league)

Pre- MJ...outside of your superstar centers...it was rare for a player to be thought of as a stellar two way player. Walt Frazier being the most clear exception.....so I'm going to assume that the names on the all nba team that I don't recognize are your defensive specialist type of guys....earlier versions of Cooper/Bowen or Rodman/Wallace types .


Now....Bird as a defender is being judged/rated against the other players on the list..whether by position or not. No offshoot list..no derivation using other stats..just the list of players selected to all nba defense.

Who would YOU say is a worse defensive player than Larry Bird? and specifically which forwards?

[Bigsmoke]

Shaq made a few and he was downright bad defensively in a few aspects for his entire career. Just an awfull PnR defender even when he was in shape. He had a few years where his rebounding and shot blocking were excellent thought, although even then not usually on the specialist level.

And Karl Malone made a bunch. I watched a ton of Karl Malone, and I just don't get that at all. He was a decent on ball guy, but beyond that not much. I'd take Bird as a defender over him all the time.

And there's a pretty good list of guys who made it primarily as help guys. Charles Oakley, and other guys like him, who are usually underrated defenders, right up until the moment someone decides their not.

I've always felt Yao Ming was a wildly underrated defender because his size prevented a lot of shots, but didn't get him much in the way of blocks.

Shaq D was at least game changing. He was a great shot blocker and and his presents were felt on defense from just how big, strong, and athlete he was alone.

[TheBigVeto]

That would be Kobe.

[Go Getter]

:facepalm Never disrespect the Legend.

[Bigsmoke]

:facepalm Never disrespect the Legend.

I wasnt disrespecting but just wondering....

[bizil]

Bird was a SF-PF. Not really a SF-SG or swingman type like many of his peer's in the 80's golden era of SF's. As a matter of fact, he may have been THE ONLY one whose secondary spot was PF CLEARLY. So if u consider him guarding PF's (which he played often in his career) then that makes a huge difference. I think he was a good defender at PF and an average at best at SF. And in the team defense or help defense facets, he was very good. Just like Magic was in the backcourt. Neither were great man on man defenders. And I think straight up man on man D separates the truly great defenders from everybody else. But Bird on PF's worked out good in his era.

[La Frescobaldi]

@shaqisgoat

Since title of the thread is about whether or not Bird is the worst defender ever named on all nba defensive team..let's look at the list of players selected to the ALL NBA team, not some offshoot list,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_All-Defensive_Team


there are several names on the list that I'm not familiar with pre-1980 but allow me to assume that some of the more obscure names are of guys who were primarily known for being defenders (and that's how they stayed in the league)

Pre- MJ...outside of your superstar centers...it was rare for a player to be thought of as a stellar two way player. Walt Frazier being the most clear exception.....so I'm going to assume that the names on the all nba team that I don't recognize are your defensive specialist type of guys....earlier versions of Cooper/Bowen or Rodman/Wallace types .


Now....Bird as a defender is being judged/rated against the other players on the list..whether by position or not. No offshoot list..no derivation using other stats..just the list of players selected to all nba defense.

Who would YOU say is a worse defensive player than Larry Bird? and specifically which forwards?

bringing some weight into the thread along with shaqisgoat.

you mention Frazier among non-centers but he's not actually the 'most clear exception' that would be John Havlicek who once again is criminally disregarded on ISH.

Havlicek anywhere at half court destroyed transition offenses from the time I started watching NBA around 1966-67 right up until about '76 when that laser edge finally left his step and it became just razor sharp. He was deadly fast, ran, ran, ran..... and maybe the smartest player I ever saw and that my friend includes A LOT of NBA watching. He was such a threat he would be on the far side of the court and just kill fast breaks with a single step. The NBA lived in fear of that dude's defense. His man to man skillset still should be studied everywhere as one of the foundations of good defense. Hands always correct, legs always correct, fiercely physical at the correct times, master of the double team, & he could invent traps just out of the air. Given the nature of the game has changed over the years, no 3 ball back then, zones are allowed now, and so forth.

As I say that, to this day Clyde Frazier is my all-time favorite player that dude was just incredibly skilled and one of the very very few players who had no flaw in his game. But Hondo was something all right.

On the subject of Bird? Sure he was great at defense. These guys that say he was covering the weaker threat either didn't watch much 80s hoops or just caught the tail of his career. Also though, too, KC Jones was a master of defensive strategy and understood right down to his fingertips that you don't burn out your best scorer on D.... his energy level has to stay high for offense too!

[get these NETS]

@shaq

was waiting for response

[cltcfn2924]

idea of ANY of those 1980s beast small forwards making all defense is a joke

great..perhaps greatest era for small forward play (offensively)..but NONE of those guys played defense.....except for moncrief


idea that bird was a good help defender....is a joke

people see a highlight reel of Bird making key steals in the playoffs and accept that he was a good help defender

those 1980s threes abused each other and all played matador defense..including and especially Larry Bird

Bird averaged 8.0 defensive boards a game along with 1.7 steals. I submit you're the joke.

[cltcfn2924]

It's most definitely BS. Just the fact that Bird always drew the opposition's worst scoring forward and Mchale took the better one regardless of position.

Ive never checked. But if Larry Bird was really the second best or top 4 defensive forwards of the early 80s then thats doesn't say much for defense at that time

Your post says you weren't there. Why are you posting. Did you ever even see these guys play?

[chocolatethunder]

No. Chris Paul has 3 all defensive first teams. Let that sink in.

Also, Clifford Robinson made teams, and I always thought he was a particularly lousy defender than got exposed on backdoor cuts all day. Reminds me of Melo and Durant in that regard.

No, that would be Ben Wallace.

[pauk]

Well it was 2nd all-defensive, for a short time, he played smart & put alot of effort, helping, boxing out, rebounding, hustling and was great reading the passing lanes...

[Owl]

First off being the worst player wouldn't mean you're a bad defender, just worse than an elite group of defenders.

Then there's a distinction between worst choice (which is probably a star, later on in their career getting it when they didn't deserve it) and also looks at the level of competition and who should have been in that year, and the worst defender, which might imply worst career wide defender, which is probably a guy who just made one team.

Also are we just talking first team?

Anyway Michael Williams made an all-D 2nd team just by being a gambler. Michael Ray Richardson made the first team the same way. I used to like Josh Smith but he always looked a lot better on the boxscore than on the court in terms of D, so he's probably amongst the bottom end of All-D defenders.

[joeyjoejoe]

[QUOTE=Thorpesaurous]Shaq made a few and he was downright bad defensively in a few aspects for his entire career. Just an awfull PnR defender even when he was in shape. He had a few years where his rebounding and shot blocking were excellent thought, although even then not usually on the specialist level.

And Karl Malone made a bunch. I watched a ton of Karl Malone, and I just don't get that at all. He was a decent on ball guy, but beyond that not much. I'd take Bird as a defendeefender

Malone deserved them

[PJR]

Larry Hughes 2005 selection was the first to come to mind. Just awful. Raja Bell is another one (was never that good).

[get these NETS]

Bird averaged 8.0 defensive boards a game along with 1.7 steals. I submit you're the joke.
Rick Barry averaged a full 2 steals per game...

was he a better defensive player than Bird?

was Rick Barry a good defensive player?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Magic was worse

[pudman13]

was Rick Barry a good defensive player?

Like most intensely focused, hustling players, yes.

[pudman13]

Larry Hughes 2005 selection was the first to come to mind. Just awful.

I think we have a winner!

[NumberSix]

Kobe.

[magnax1]

Payton was really not that great in 02, neither was Kobe in 12. Not sure why CP3 has ever made one of the teams.

[jlip]

Magic was worse

How is this relevant?

:confusedshrug:

[get these NETS]

How is this relevant?

:confusedshrug:

deflects attention from the points made about Bird

Bird was the last undisputed, no asterix great white player, so it's like pulling teeth to get some people to mention any of his shortcomings .

[get these NETS]

Like most intensely focused, hustling players, yes.


to reiterate

pre MJ it was RARE for any superstar player(non center) to be viewed as a great or even good defensive player

I mentioned Clyde Frazier and someone else mentioned Hondo......as exceptions

Rick Barry was a precursor to the crowded field of UNGUARDABLE small forwards of the 1980s who really didn't play defense.

Not the kind of defense that gets rewarded with all nba defensive selection

[SamuraiSWISH]

How is this relevant?

:confusedshrug:
It's not hard to understand. The question asks was Bird the worst defender to ever be on the All Defensive Team ...

I then brought up Magic being a significantly worse defender. Magic also being Bird's main competitive contemporary.

He gambled for steals in the passing lanes but he couldn't defense his position. Sleepy Floyd dropped 50 on him in a playoff game.

Sleepy Floyd.

Bird was a better rebounder, better defender on ball at his position and could guard either forward spot well. Especially when he was limber before his back injury.