Where do you rank Kobe's peak?

[cos88]

what do you consider his peak? i really like 06 but he lead them to a 7th spot and a abysmal game 7, second half vs suns
is he the worst top 10 peak player?

[SilkkTheShocker]

Not even better than 06 Lebron.

[NumberSix]

what do you consider his peak? i really like 06 but he lead them to a 7th spot and a abysmal game 7, second half vs suns
is he the worst top 10 peak player?
That depends. Who do you think are the top 10 "peak players"?

[branslowski]

Insecurities

[secund2nun]

Overrated just like everything of Kobe. We saw peak Kobe...and it resulted in 2 7th seeds, 1 missed playoff and 3 years of failure to even win a playoff series. Fortunately for him he had Shaq before that and then they traded for Gasol after his 3 seasons of failures.

[Unbiased_one]

what do you consider his peak? i really like 06 but he lead them to a 7th spot and a abysmal game 7, second half vs suns
is he the worst top 10 peak player?

He's in the 15-20 range peakwise for me

He pretty clearly has the worst peak of any of the players in the typical top 11 GOAT list

[Fresh Kid]

his peak iz better than Lebron's, i tell u that:applause:

[NumberSix]

his peak iz better than Lebron's, i tell u that:applause:
Your moves are just gay, no, VERY gay.

[Unbiased_one]

That depends. Who do you think are the top 10 "peak players"?


1. Wilt
2. Shaq
3. MJ
4. Russell
5. Lebron

for me there's a pretty clear top 5 in the peak stakes...I find it difficult to put anyone above these 5

6. KAJ
7. Hakeem
8. Bird
9. Walton
10. Magic

It is conceivable that I've missed someone obvious...

(The somewhat loose definition of peak I'm using here is 'if I could have one player at their peak to build a team around for one season to give me the best chance of winning a title in a typical nba season, who would I want?')

[branslowski]

Overrated just like everything of Kobe. We saw peak Kobe...and it resulted in 2 7th seeds, 1 missed playoff and 3 years of failure to even win a playoff series. Fortunately for him he had Shaq before that and then they traded for Gasol after his 3 seasons of failures.

So where you rank Gasols peak before he came to Kobe's team.:oldlol:

[NumberSix]

1. Wilt
2. Shaq
3. MJ
4. Russell
5. Lebron

for me there's a pretty clear top 5 in the peak stakes...I find it difficult to put anyone above these 5

6. KAJ
7. Hakeem
8. Bird
9. Walton
10. Magic

It is conceivable that I've missed someone obvious...

(The somewhat loose definition of peak I'm using here is 'if I could have one player at their peak to build a team around for one season to give me the best chance of winning a title in a typical nba season, who would I want?')
In that scenario, I'd say Kobe had a better peak than Russell.

[secund2nun]

So where you rank Gasols peak before he came to Kobe's team.:oldlol:

Gasol was very good, but nothing legendary like Duncan or KG. Prior to joining LA Gasol also failed to even win a single playoff series just like prime Kobe, prime Tmac, and prime Bosh. Same level as Kobe. But if you take Gasol + Kobe+ Odom+ Occasional Bynum + Phil as coach you get a good team.

[Unbiased_one]

In that scenario, I'd say Kobe had a better peak than Russell.

garbage...you do realize Russell won a title 11/13 years (one loss was when he was injured, one against peak wilt) and his team missed the playoffs the year before and after him?

Russell is the GOAT for me (and it's not really close either), but I don't think he had the highest peak. He was remarkably good for a long time though.

[NumberSix]

garbage...you do realize Russell won a title 11/13 years (one loss was when he was injured, one against peak wilt) and his team missed the playoffs the year before and after him?

Russell is the GOAT for me (and it's not really close either), but I don't think he had the highest peak. He was remarkably good for a long time though.
Yeah, and the Heat wouldn't have won the past 2 chips without Bosh. Doesn't make Bosh the greatest player in the league. Just a valuable member of the team.

[KyleKong]

C'mon guys, his peak was 08-10. Pretty impressive.

I don't even like Kobe, but c'mon.

[branslowski]

Gasol was very good, but nothing legendary like Duncan or KG. Prior to joining LA Gasol also failed to even win a single playoff series just like prime Kobe, prime Tmac, and prime Bosh. Same level as Kobe. But if you take Gasol + Kobe+ Odom+ Occasional Bynum + Phil as coach you get a good team.

So, It's odd how u place Gasol on the Shaq level because Kobe won with him, even though before Kobe he was 0-16 in the playoffs.

You reach so much...I mean, what other All-time greats won without a solid unit? It can be argued that besides Hakeem, Kobe had the worst Allstar teammates to win titles with.

[SamuraiSWISH]

C'mon guys, his peak was 08-10. Pretty impressive.

I don't even like Kobe, but c'mon.
Nah, peak Kobe is between the ages of 27 - 29, which is 2006, 2007, and 2008. He was still elite top 3 in 2009, and 2010. But on an individual level his capabilities were starting to dwindle. Every player's peak is usually like in the age range of 25 - 30.

[tpols]

Gasol was very good, but nothing legendary like Duncan or KG. Prior to joining LA Gasol also failed to even win a single playoff series just like prime Kobe, prime Tmac, and prime Bosh. Same level as Kobe. But if you take Gasol + Kobe+ Odom+ Occasional Bynum + Phil as coach you get a good team.
KG missed the playoffs multiple years in his dead prime.. both he and Kobe had shit supporting casts during their stints.

Duncan has had more consistent help throughout his career than Kobe has had.. What Gasol is to a center/PF, HOFs Manu and Parker were to perimeter play.. Duncan as a big man had same quality perimeter talent as what Kobe had down low. And he has always had top 3 at worst coaching/scouting to control everything else and make rejects and euros looks like gods.


Those memphis teams were easily better than what Kobe was playing with from 05-07...

Memphis had SEVEN players in double figures back then.. You will have a very very hard time finding teams that have that well rounded contribution from the whole team.. and aside from the scoring they had great defensive role players.. Shane Battier when he was at his peak and one of the best man defenders scrappiest players in the whole league.. Mike miller in that same mold.. Eddie Jones.. etc. Team was stacked with well balanced scoring and very good perimeter defenders.

Compare to the Lakers who had only three double digit scorers outside of Kobe..Smush Parker and Chris Mihm being two of them.. Players outside of Kobe aside from Lamar Odom were pathetic. No talent or balance offensively.. mediocre to shit defenders.. its just not comparable.


And Kobe had his team looking far more impressive against higher seeds.. If he just had a bosh level player and some defensive role players to scrap LA wouldve been advancing deep. When youre facing steve nash and one of the most explosive offenses ever and you have to shoulder a huge offensive burden while not having the defensive guys behind you.. it isnt going to work.


Thats one thing Bron had in Cleveland that everyone overlooks..

3rd best defensive rebounding team in the league
7th ranked defense

He had little offensive help but his team was built like a weaker current age chicago bulls. It was all Lebron and Rose on offensive creation.. but they had a nice safety cushion with their teams defense and rebounding. Kobes teams from 05-07..

12th defensive rebounding team
20th ranked defense


He didnt have that cushion.. And had just as terrible offensive support for the most part.

[NumberSix]

Kobe's not really a "peak" player though. He's a longevity guy.

[Odinn]

Bottom top 10.

1. Michael Jordan
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Shaquille O'Neal
4. Larry Bird
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Tim Duncan or LeBron James
8. LeBron James or Tim Duncan
9. Magic Johnson or Kobe Bryant
10. Kobe Bryant or Magic Johnson
11. Moses Malone
12. Charles Barkley

[KyleKong]

Nah, peak Kobe is between the ages of 27 - 29, which is 2006, 2007, and 2008. He was still elite top 3 in 2009, and 2010. But on an individual level his capabilities were starting to dwindle. Every player's peak is usually like in the age range of 25 - 30.

True, true.

[SamuraiSWISH]

True, true.
Repped cause you're respectful

[tmacattack33]

A decent amount behind where he is on the legacy list (9 or so).

So, 15-17.

And Wade's peak (2006 or 2009) would be very close to it.

[tpols]

Look at it like this....

Durant is better than Rose. I don't think there's any argument about that. Especially with Rose just coming back. He's obviously gonna some rust to work through.

Franchise players aside, which is the better team? I think its safe to say Westbrook is better than anyone on the Bulls? Bulls have the defensive edge.

Coaching is obvious.

I'd have to give it too OKC.
Bulls without Rose for an entire season and playoffs were a second round playoff team.. and thats with injuries to their second best guy Noah. OKC without Westbrook didnt go any further than the Bulls without Rose.


So am I to assume that if Durant was the one who had gotten hurt OKC wouldve done even better than what actually happened? If OKC was

Westbrook
Martin
Thabo
Ibaka
Perkins

for a whole year theyre a 6-8 seed and first round exit. Bulls already proved capable of that and more w/o Rose.

So I disagree.. a well rounded collection of defensive role players who are somewhat offensively talented > one high quality offensive option and a bunch of scrubs losing every other matchup on the floor.

[NumberSix]

A decent amount behind where he is on the legacy list (9 or so).

So, 15-17.

And Wade's peak (2006 or 2009) would be very close to it.
I'd have to put Wade's peak comfortably ahead of Kobe's.

[tmacattack33]

Bulls without Rose for an entire season and playoffs were a second round playoff team.. and thats with injuries to their second best guy Noah. OKC without Westbrook didnt go any further than the Bulls without Rose.


So am I to assume that if Durant was the one who had gotten hurt OKC wouldve done even better than what actually happened? If OKC was

Westbrook
Martin
Thabo
Ibaka
Perkins

for a whole year theyre a 6-8 seed and first round exit. Bulls already proved capable of that and more w/o Rose.

So I disagree.. a well rounded collection of defensive role players who are somewhat offensively talented > one high quality offensive option and a bunch of scrubs losing every other matchup on the floor.

:confusedshrug:

[scm5]

He's in the 15-20 range peakwise for me

He pretty clearly has the worst peak of any of the players in the typical top 11 GOAT list

How are you measuring peak?

Top 3 Peak PER:
Kobe: 28.0, 26.2, 26.1
Total: 80.3
Bird: 27.8, 26.5, 26.4
Total: 80.7
Magic: 27.0, 26.9, 26.6
Total: 80.5

Playoffs Top 3 Peak PER: (championship won)
Kobe: 26.8, 25.0, 24.7
Total: 76.5
Bird: 26.3, 23.9, 21.8
Total: 72.0
Magic: 26.2, 22.9, 22.5
Total: 71.6

From this we can conclude that Kobe, Bird, and Magic had pretty much similar peaks in terms of efficiency, with the only significant difference being that Kobe performs better in the playoffs. I know I only included the PER of Championship seasons for the playoffs, but Kobe has the best Top 3 Peak PER if you do just PER's in the playoffs regardless of it being a championship season.

We also know that Kobe is far and above the best defender of the 3.

I am not using regular statistical seasons because of how different the game is now than in Magic/Bird's era.

Proof: http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html
Pace was much higher resulting in higher PPG, FG%, Rebounds, and Assists.

Though it's nowhere near perfect, PER is a better comparison and it shows that their peaks are at least similar.

Kobe's defense is what puts him above Magic and Bird in terms of level of play, yet people always put Kobe far below these two in rankings despite having comparable resumes and longevity on his side. Magic and Bird are both iconic to their franchises, Kobe is the same.

:facepalm

Kobe is a Top 10 player and there's very little people can say to refute that.

[Heavincent]

Top 10

[fpliii]

Top 7 among non-bigs at the very least, possibly top 5. Peak Kobe was a beast.

[Unbiased_one]

How are you measuring peak?

Top 3 Peak PER:
Kobe: 28.0, 26.2, 26.1
Total: 80.3
Bird: 27.8, 26.5, 26.4
Total: 80.7
Magic: 27.0, 26.9, 26.6
Total: 80.5

Playoffs Top 3 Peak PER: (championship won)
Kobe: 26.8, 25.0, 24.7
Total: 76.5
Bird: 26.3, 23.9, 21.8
Total: 72.0
Magic: 26.2, 22.9, 22.5
Total: 71.6

From this we can conclude that Kobe, Bird, and Magic had pretty much similar peaks in terms of efficiency, with the only significant difference being that Kobe performs better in the playoffs. I know I only included the PER of Championship seasons for the playoffs, but Kobe has the best Top 3 Peak PER if you do just PER's in the playoffs regardless of it being a championship season.

We also know that Kobe is far and above the best defender of the 3.

I am not using regular statistical seasons because of how different the game is now than in Magic/Bird's era.

Proof: http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html
Pace was much higher resulting in higher PPG, FG%, Rebounds, and Assists.

Though it's nowhere near perfect, PER is a better comparison and it shows that their peaks are at least similar.

Kobe's defense is what puts him above Magic and Bird in terms of level of play, yet people always put Kobe far below these two in rankings despite having comparable resumes and longevity on his side. Magic and Bird are both iconic to their franchises, Kobe is the same.

:facepalm

Kobe is a Top 10 player and there's very little people can say to refute that.

I'm not really sure why people bandy around PER when it's such a terrible stat...maybe you should go find out how it's calculated and understand the context that makes your comparison so foolish. And kobe during his 'individual' peak didn't really play defense so i'm not sure why you're using that as an argument.

[LikeABosh]

top 15-20

[Project018]

Peak 10-15
All Time 8-11

[NumberSix]

Peak Kobe or peak Stockton?

[dyna]

All time 9-10
Peak 13-16

[secund2nun]

So, It's odd how u place Gasol on the Shaq level because Kobe won with him, even though before Kobe he was 0-16 in the playoffs.

You reach so much...I mean, what other All-time greats won without a solid unit? It can be argued that besides Hakeem, Kobe had the worst Allstar teammates to win titles with.

Gasol is on the same level as Kobe. They are both not good enough to single handedly win a playoff series. Chris Bosh Melo Wade Tmac are other players in this category.

It's not a reach. Prime Kobe cannot even win a playoff series in the 3 chances he got. 0 playoff series victories, a missed playoffs, and 2 7th seeds is the best he can do? And that was with prime Odom who was a good player. Kobe even got lucky one season and faced the Suns without Amare but he still lost that series. He also missed the playoffs once and lost in 5 to the Suns the other time.

Worst all star players to win the title with? LOL that is a joke. Kobe was a first round loser because Gasol joined. They were a TEAM, not a batman robin duo like you wish it was. Gasol outperformed Kobe in both the 2009 and 2010 finals and in many playoff series.

[secund2nun]

KG missed the playoffs multiple years in his dead prime.. both he and Kobe had shit supporting casts during their stints.

Duncan has had more consistent help throughout his career than Kobe has had.. What Gasol is to a center/PF, HOFs Manu and Parker were to perimeter play.. Duncan as a big man had same quality perimeter talent as what Kobe had down low. And he has always had top 3 at worst coaching/scouting to control everything else and make rejects and euros looks like gods.


Those memphis teams were easily better than what Kobe was playing with from 05-07...

Memphis had SEVEN players in double figures back then.. You will have a very very hard time finding teams that have that well rounded contribution from the whole team.. and aside from the scoring they had great defensive role players.. Shane Battier when he was at his peak and one of the best man defenders scrappiest players in the whole league.. Mike miller in that same mold.. Eddie Jones.. etc. Team was stacked with well balanced scoring and very good perimeter defenders.

Compare to the Lakers who had only three double digit scorers outside of Kobe..Smush Parker and Chris Mihm being two of them.. Players outside of Kobe aside from Lamar Odom were pathetic. No talent or balance offensively.. mediocre to shit defenders.. its just not comparable.


And Kobe had his team looking far more impressive against higher seeds.. If he just had a bosh level player and some defensive role players to scrap LA wouldve been advancing deep. When youre facing steve nash and one of the most explosive offenses ever and you have to shoulder a huge offensive burden while not having the defensive guys behind you.. it isnt going to work.


Thats one thing Bron had in Cleveland that everyone overlooks..

3rd best defensive rebounding team in the league
7th ranked defense

He had little offensive help but his team was built like a weaker current age chicago bulls. It was all Lebron and Rose on offensive creation.. but they had a nice safety cushion with their teams defense and rebounding. Kobes teams from 05-07..

12th defensive rebounding team
20th ranked defense


He didnt have that cushion.. And had just as terrible offensive support for the most part.

KG has led a weak cast to the WCF and did not have a Odom caliber player. Kobe could not even win a playoff series and that was with prime Odom who was a good player.

Duncan has not had much help relative to his success. Watch how much SA will fall when Duncan retires. They will crash. Duncan was by far the best player on that team. Gasol was not a side kick. He was an equal. Gasol outperformed Kobe in the 09 and 10 finals and he was always an equal. He quite a few entire series that he outperformed Kobe. In no way was Gasol a sidekick like Manu and Parker both of who are pretty overrated.

Kobe's results were not far more impressive. They still could not win a playoff series. Both Kobe and Gasol failed. The gap between them is small. Kobe fell to the healthy Suns in 5 (Odom was 20/13) and even lost to a suns without Amare in 7 and Odom went 20-11-5 in that series. Then they missed the playoffs one year. He had 2 7th seeds and did not even hit the 50 win mark. They are similar level players. Also Odom was much better than Miller and Battier.

Replace Kobe with prime Duncan, Shaq, Lebron, Hakeem, Barkley and those teams would have won multiple playoff series through that 3 year stretch instead of 0.

[branslowski]

Gasol is on the same level as Kobe. They are both not good enough to single handedly win a playoff series. Chris Bosh Melo Wade Tmac are other players in this category.

It's not a reach. Prime Kobe cannot even win a playoff series in the 3 chances he got. 0 playoff series victories, a missed playoffs, and 2 7th seeds is the best he can do? And that was with prime Odom who was a good player. Kobe even got lucky one season and faced the Suns without Amare but he still lost that series. He also missed the playoffs once and lost in 5 to the Suns the other time.

Worst all star players to win the title with? LOL that is a joke. Kobe was a first round loser because Gasol joined. They were a TEAM, not a batman robin duo like you wish it was. Gasol outperformed Kobe in both the 2009 and 2010 finals and in many playoff series.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[secund2nun]

Prime Kobe could not even beat the suns WITHOUT Amare while Odom was beasting 20-11-5

[KG215]

Off the top of my head, probably in the 12-15 range somewhere.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Of players I've watched since '89 or '90, as far as peaks?

MJ
LeBron
Shaq
Barkley
Hakeem

then Kobe / Wade

[NumberSix]

Of players I've watched since '89 or '90, as far as peaks?

MJ
LeBron
Shaq
Barkley
Hakeem

then Kobe / Wade
I'd put Shaq ahead of LeBron and Hakeem ahead of Barkley.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I'd put Shaq ahead of LeBron and Hakeem ahead of Barkley.
I wouldn't.

Barkley faced MJ in the Finals, Hakeem had the luxury of him being rusty or on vacation playing baseball.

Shaq's 3 year stretch was great from 2000 - 2002. What LeBron has been doing since 2009 is stunning. He's gunning for a three peat, 4 straight Finals appearance with more potentially on the way.

Plus the MVP's, etc. And I'd have to definitely disagree. LeBron is still kind of evolving too.

[juju151111]

I wouldn't.

Barkley faced MJ in the Finals, Hakeem had the luxury of him being rusty or on vacation playing baseball.

Shaq's 3 year stretch was great from 2000 - 2002. What LeBron has been doing since 2009 is stunning. He's gunning for a three peat, 4 straight Finals appearance with more potentially on the way.

Plus the MVP's, etc. And I'd have to definitely disagree. LeBron is still kind of evolving too.
Hakeem not playing Mj in the finals isn't his fault and Hakeem peak was better. Hakeem was sick playoff performer.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Hakeem not playing Mj in the finals isn't his fault and Hakeem peak was better. Hakeem was sick playoff performer.
Barkley was just as great of a playoff performer. I didn't say it was Hakeem's fault ... but context plays into things. Chuck stole an MVP, and competed on the big stage against Mike at his baddest. That counts for something. CB34 from '89 - '94 was a monster. Hakeem's peak was '93 - '95. So Chuck has comparable absolute peak, but did it for a longer stretch.

[NumberSix]

I wouldn't.

Barkley faced MJ in the Finals, Hakeem had the luxury of him being rusty or on vacation playing baseball.

Shaq's 3 year stretch was great from 2000 - 2002. What LeBron has been doing since 2009 is stunning. He's gunning for a three peat, 4 straight Finals appearance with more potentially on the way.

Plus the MVP's, etc. And I'd have to definitely disagree. LeBron is still kind of evolving too.
That means literally nothing to me. If were gonna use that arbitrary barometer, Hakeem faced better finals competition than Jordan, Shaq, LeBron or Barkley ever did.

[KG215]

Barkley was just as great of a playoff performer. I didn't say it was Hakeem's fault ... but context plays into things. Chuck stole an MVP, and competed on the big stage against Mike at his baddest. That counts for something. CB34 from '89 - '94 was a monster. Hakeem's peak was '93 - '95. So Chuck has comparable absolute peak, but did it for a longer stretch.
Your "Barkley faced Jordan in the Finals and Hakeem didn't" point is just stupid. We're talking about on-court ability and the impact they had as players...you know, in games. So who they did or didn't play in the Finals doesn't and shouldn't mean shit.

I also can't think of a logical argument as to why peak Barkley was better than peak Hakeem. Hakeem at his best, was not only capable of anchoring an offense and scoring at a high volume with his devastating post moves, but he was also one of the best and most complete defensive anchors of all-time. The only argument Barkley has over Hakeem is as a better offensive player, and even that's debatable. But Hakeem blows Barkley out of the water in terms of defensive impact.

[SamuraiSWISH]

But Hakeem blows Barkley out of the water in terms of defensive impact.
I agree. But Hakeem only really capitalized on his abilities for 2 season? Barkley had a longer stretch of peak performance, in my opinion. And I don't think the Jordan argument is stupid at all. I'm not holding it against Hakeem, but context comes into play when I'm ranking players. He didn't go through the defending champs. He did however obliterate elite contemporaries at his position: D-Rob, Shaq, Ewing, etc. Which I do really admire.

[NumberSix]

I agree. But Hakeem only really capitalized on his abilities for 2 season? Barkley had a longer stretch of peak performance, in my opinion. And I don't think the Jordan argument is stupid at all. I'm not holding it against Hakeem, but context comes into play when I'm ranking players. He didn't go through the defending champs. He did however obliterate elite contemporaries at his position: D-Rob, Shaq, Ewing, etc. Which I do really admire.
Hakeem played against the 86 Celtics in the finals. Far better than anything Jordan or Barkley ever faced.

And Jordan never beat the defending champs either.

[tpols]

KG has led a weak cast to the WCF and did not have a Odom caliber player. Kobe could not even win a playoff series and that was with prime Odom who was a good player.
What a bold faced lie.. KG only 'led' a cast to the WCF when he had...

Sam Cassell averaging 20/7
Latrell Sprewell averaging 17/4/4

while Kobe had Odom averaging 14-15/9/5... KG's third option was on par with Kobes second.. and KG had a team filled with better defensive role players. Sam Cassell is one of the smartest most underrated PGs ever.. no coincidence he had his fingerprints all over his runs with Hakeem and was the leader for the Clippers first playoff berth in however long. Its also no wonder when he went down so did the Twolves...



Duncan has not had much help relative to his success. Watch how much SA will fall when Duncan retires. They will crash. Duncan was by far the best player on that team. Gasol was not a side kick. He was an equal. Gasol outperformed Kobe in the 09 and 10 finals and he was always an equal. He quite a few entire series that he outperformed Kobe. In no way was Gasol a sidekick like Manu and Parker both of who are pretty overrated.
lol.. Duncan averaged 13/9 from 2011 to 2012.. and his team won 120 games and nabbed two first seeds.:oldlol:

Weve already seen duncan beast, then gradually fall off, and then pick it up again. His play is important in the playoffs, but his team has shown signifigant strength even as his play drastically declined.



Kobe's results were not far more impressive. They still could not win a playoff series. Both Kobe and Gasol failed. The gap between them is small. Kobe fell to the healthy Suns in 5 (Odom was 20/13) and even lost to a suns without Amare in 7 and Odom went 20-11-5 in that series. Then they missed the playoffs one year. He had 2 7th seeds and did not even hit the 50 win mark. They are similar level players. Also Odom was much better than Miller and Battier.
Kobe had two tries at winning the playoff series outside of injury.. and he led his team to a very competitive first series against a heavily favored seed out west, and then a less competitive second try when pheonix was even more stacked with talent(Amare back.. who has had beast series against Gasol, Duncan, many great PFs.. another underrated prime player).

But again youre whole reasoning runs off two out of 17+ seasons.. and in those two seasons it was consensus that the supporting cast was terrible. Its been proven that all Kobe needed to compete for multiple rings was a 19/10 big man and decent role players. All he needs is a decent team/coaching around him.. as do 99% of all stars.

Lebron has the talent to drag bad teams further than Kobe.. on good teams however Lebron's game interferes with other stars and makes the journey more difficult. Its a wash if you do the comparison both ways. Even Lebron, however wasnt carrying a team with that poor a frontcourt and defense anywhere out west.. him and Odom wouldnt have worked well either since odom is a ballhandler himself and often dribbles his way into a rythym.. something bron would interupt.



Replace Kobe with prime Duncan, Shaq, Lebron, Hakeem, Barkley and those teams would have won multiple playoff series through that 3 year stretch instead of 0.
Shaq has been swept out of the playoffs more than any other all time great.. Hakeem has like 8 first round exits in his career playing on bad teams.. and Im supposed to expect him to win 'multiple' playoff series with a terrible cast when reality has shown the exact opposite?

Duncan had a tough time getting by the suns with a prime manu and parker , stacked spurs team.. now its a lock he beats pheonix with far worse players?

Honestly.. who buys your bullshit?:oldlol:

[Young X]

Hakeem played against the 86 Celtics in the finals. Far better than anything Jordan or Barkley ever faced.

And Jordan never beat the defending champs either.'91 Pistons?

[bizil]

Among perimeter players, I think MJ, Kobe, Bron, Magic, Bird, and Big O set the tone. All are in that 6'5 to 6'9 range and can play a minimum of three positions well. But what sets MJ, Kobe, and Bron apart is the fact that they are great defenders on top of it. It kind of puts them in their own league so to speak. For bigs, U got Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, and Dream for my top four. These guys are my top ten players peak value wise. I got Kobe anywhere from 6-10 peak value wise.

[NumberSix]

'91 Pistons?
That's not the finals. So if we're gonna do that, Hakeem beat the defending champion Lakers.

[AintNoSunshine]

That's not the finals. So if we're gonna do that, Hakeem beat the defending champion Lakers.
Bulls and the Pistons are in the same fukkin conference how is Bulls going to beat the defending champs in the finals？:roll: :roll:

[Fox]

C'mon guys, his peak was 08-10. Pretty impressive.

I don't even like Kobe, but c'mon.
Lol

[rmt]

Kobe's in the top 10 because of longevity, not peak. His sheer, cumulative numbers is what gets him top 10 ranking. We've seen his absolute PEAK - missing the playoffs and losing in the first round after a 3-1 lead.

On a top 10 ranking, his entire career/resume outshines Hakeem's because there is so much of it, but Hakeem's leading a bunch of no names to a championship outshines what Kobe did when he didn't have Shaq and Gasol/Bynum/Odom (the best frontcourt in the NBA at the time).

[TheMarkMadsen]

That's not the finals. So if we're gonna do that, Hakeem beat the defending champion Lakers.

:lol

[LA Lakers]

If you don't think Kobe Bean Bryant was the best in the world in 06 you probably werent watching basketball or you are just a plain biased hater. Only other guy who was close to making the claim to best in the world was Shaq Attack who was in South Beach still kicking ass and taking names. Not saying this just cuz Ima Lakers fan but those 2 were still the best in the world in 06. Kobe played out of his mind, he was a scoring machine and a lockdown perimeter defender, and from 06 to 09 if you wanna call that peak it was just as good as any other great players peak. Put 86 Bird, 88 Isiah, 91 Jordan, 87 Magic, 77 Walton etc etc etc on that Lakers team and I guarantee that Lakers team win shares aint gonna change much when Lamar Odom is your viable go to second option on a regular basis. No offense to Odom because he could ball.

[havoc33]

Gasol is on the same level as Kobe. They are both not good enough to single handedly win a playoff series. Chris Bosh Melo Wade Tmac are other players in this category.

It's not a reach. Prime Kobe cannot even win a playoff series in the 3 chances he got. 0 playoff series victories, a missed playoffs, and 2 7th seeds is the best he can do? And that was with prime Odom who was a good player. Kobe even got lucky one season and faced the Suns without Amare but he still lost that series. He also missed the playoffs once and lost in 5 to the Suns the other time.

Worst all star players to win the title with? LOL that is a joke. Kobe was a first round loser because Gasol joined. They were a TEAM, not a batman robin duo like you wish it was. Gasol outperformed Kobe in both the 2009 and 2010 finals and in many playoff series.If you really believe any of this, you need help. Fast.

No one of the 05-06 sports previews had the Lakers even making the Playoffs that year, yet they did due to Kobe balling out of his mind, even taking the Suns to 7 games. You ought to check who his teammates was during 05, 06 and 07, that gives you the reason right there why the Lakers were not successful. But you on the other hand think otherwise? Explain to me, when looking at the roster before the 06 season, what exactly did you see that no other could? Please enlighten us. As soon as Kobe got another quality player next to him in Gasol, the Lakers went straight to the Finals. And you're totally discounting the fact that the Western Conference has been extremely competitive during Kobe's entire career.

Oh well, I can't believe I'm responding to a person who values Gasol's prime as high as Kobe's. Stupidity has no limits.

[LA Lakers]

I think people who don't appreciate the game or who aren't too serious about it go on this insidehoops website or others like it just to get a rise out of baskeball fans.

[sportjames23]

Bottom top 10.

1. Michael Jordan
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Shaquille O'Neal
4. Larry Bird
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Tim Duncan or LeBron James
8. LeBron James or Tim Duncan
9. Magic Johnson or Kobe Bryant
10. Kobe Bryant or Magic Johnson
11. Moses Malone
12. Charles Barkley


Bro, ain't no way in hell peak Duncan or Lebron are better than peak Magic. Hell, peak Magic is above peak Hakeem, too.

[sportjames23]

That's not the finals. So if we're gonna do that, Hakeem beat the defending champion Lakers.


:facepalm

This dumbass here...

[tmacattack33]

If you don't think Kobe Bean Bryant was the best in the world in 06 you probably werent watching basketball or you are just a plain biased hater. Only other guy who was close to making the claim to best in the world was Shaq Attack who was in South Beach still kicking ass and taking names. Not saying this just cuz Ima Lakers fan but those 2 were still the best in the world in 06. Kobe played out of his mind, he was a scoring machine and a lockdown perimeter defender, and from 06 to 09 if you wanna call that peak it was just as good as any other great players peak. Put 86 Bird, 88 Isiah, 91 Jordan, 87 Magic, 77 Walton etc etc etc on that Lakers team and I guarantee that Lakers team win shares aint gonna change much when Lamar Odom is your viable go to second option on a regular basis. No offense to Odom because he could ball.

Yeah, either that or you actually watched the playoffs in 2006 and saw Wade have the best playoff run from a guard at the time since MJ.

[riseagainst]

That's not the finals. So if we're gonna do that, Hakeem beat the defending champion Lakers.

wow.... im speechless.

:biggums:

[Nash]

Problem with Kobe is that whatever he did he always did it on 47% and under. Dominance means you're unstoppable but Kobe was always prone to miss A LOT.

[HurricaneKid]

How are you measuring peak?

Top 3 Peak PER:
Kobe: 28.0, 26.2, 26.1
Total: 80.3
Bird: 27.8, 26.5, 26.4
Total: 80.7
Magic: 27.0, 26.9, 26.6
Total: 80.5

Playoffs Top 3 Peak PER: (championship won)
Kobe: 26.8, 25.0, 24.7
Total: 76.5
Bird: 26.3, 23.9, 21.8
Total: 72.0
Magic: 26.2, 22.9, 22.5
Total: 71.6

From this we can conclude that Kobe, Bird, and Magic had pretty much similar peaks in terms of efficiency, with the only significant difference being that Kobe performs better in the playoffs. I know I only included the PER of Championship seasons for the playoffs, but Kobe has the best Top 3 Peak PER if you do just PER's in the playoffs regardless of it being a championship season.


NO. When you are talking about PEAK PLAY you cannot mix and match statistics. Here you use regular season from 08 and playoffs from 01? Come on man.

This is the problem with Kobe and the reason this thread exists. Because he has been great for 14 years but he has never even been close to being inarguably the best player. Is his peak 06-07 when he avg 32.8ppg and had a career best 3rd place finish in PER? Because he didn't win a playoff series that year. I think his best season is 08-09 when they won the title. But he was 30 years old and in his 13th season. And LeBron was CLEARLY better, probably Wade too.

Pick a year, any year, or Kobe's career. It doesn't go in the elite seasons of all time.

[HurricaneKid]

Gasol outperformed Kobe in ...2009

This is an aggressively stupid thing to say.

[chazzy]

I think his best season is 08-09 when they won the title.
08 was better. Only difference between the two years is the finals opponent and the cast performing better, otherwise I don't see a case individually for 09.

[NumberSix]

Bulls and the Pistons are in the same fukkin conference how is Bulls going to beat the defending champs in the finals？:roll: :roll:
Rockets and lakers are in the same conference. How are the rockets supposed to beat the defending champs in the finals?:roll:


Its fcuking amazing how Jordan Stans apply utterly arbitrary criteria to other players, but it just flat out doesn't apply to Jordan.

[zay_24]

GOAT laker

At his peak hes the best scorer in NBA history

[secund2nun]

What a bold faced lie.. KG only 'led' a cast to the WCF when he had...

Sam Cassell averaging 20/7
Latrell Sprewell averaging 17/4/4

while Kobe had Odom averaging 14-15/9/5... KG's third option was on par with Kobes second.. and KG had a team filled with better defensive role players. Sam Cassell is one of the smartest most underrated PGs ever.. no coincidence he had his fingerprints all over his runs with Hakeem and was the leader for the Clippers first playoff berth in however long. Its also no wonder when he went down so did the Twolves...


Odom was vastly superior to Cassell and Sprewell. They cannot be compared. Odom went 19/13 and 19/11/5 against the Suns both series and Kobe still failed to lead LA past them and Amare was out for one of the series.

Here are their averages for the 04 playoffs:

Cassell: 16.6/4.4/2.5 on 46% fg (12.6 shots per game).

Sprewell: 20/4/4 on 42% fg (17 shots per game)

None of those performances were impressive. 20 PPG means nothing if its on 17 shots per game 42% fg. Any scrub could do that if they took 17 shots per game.

Odom averaged :

19/11/5 on 50% fg in the 06 playoffs

19.5/13/2 on 48% fg in the 07 playoffs

Odom was better than Cassell and Sprewell combined...times 2. You are seriously comparing 19/11/5, 20/13/2 48%, 50% with 16/4/2 46% fg and 20/4/4 42% fg? LOL You must think Brandon Jennings is better than Noah since you value useless scrub shooting so much.

And despite Kobe having a much better player in Odom, KG was able to led his team to defeat Denver, a good Kings team, and then fell to LA in 6 while Kobe failed to win a playoff series at all and fell in 5 to a healthy Suns team with Odom beasting and then could not even beat a Suns team WITHOUT Amare again in the first round with Odom again beasting.


lol.. Duncan averaged 13/9 from 2011 to 2012.. and his team won 120 games and nabbed two first seeds.:oldlol:

Duncan was how old in 2011/2012? You are comparing 35/36 year old Duncan with prime Kobe? And to top it all off Duncan has proven himself in the past with performances Kobe can only dream off. Even this season Duncan led them to a hair away from the title while prime Kobe= first round loss

Old man Duncan's finals performance vs Miami of 19/12 50% fg and lock down anchor D in the paint is better than any Kobe finals performance EVER


Weve already seen duncan beast, then gradually fall off, and then pick it up again. His play is important in the playoffs, but his team has shown signifigant strength even as his play drastically declined.

Significant strength? His team goes nowhere unless Duncan does really well. Duncan went 18/10 with amazing paint D which is why they nearly won the title and Duncan is so old. Manu sucks these days. Spurs will collapse after Duncan retires. He is the Spurs.


Kobe had two tries at winning the playoff series outside of injury.. and he led his team to a very competitive first series against a heavily favored seed out west, and then a less competitive second try when pheonix was even more stacked with talent(Amare back.. who has had beast series against Gasol, Duncan, many great PFs.. another underrated prime player).

But again youre whole reasoning runs off two out of 17+ seasons.. and in those two seasons it was consensus that the supporting cast was terrible. Its been proven that all Kobe needed to compete for multiple rings was a 19/10 big man and decent role players. All he needs is a decent team/coaching around him.. as do 99% of all stars.

Competitive? They got destroyed by the healthy Suns and Kobe had a 20/13/2 bigman in that series. It would have been a sweep if Odom was not there. A real prime GOAT would have pushed it to 7 at minimum against healthy suns, but with 20/13/2 Odom they would have beat the suns and against the suns without Amare thats a easy victory for a prime GOAT.

All Kobe needed to compete for titles is a 19/10 big man?? Kobe was a first round loser before that big man AND that big man outperformed Kobe in the 09,10 finals AND playoffs.

Prime Kobe failing to beat the suns without Amare while he has a 19/11/5 big man is very telling.


Lebron has the talent to drag bad teams further than Kobe.. on good teams however Lebron's game interferes with other stars and makes the journey more difficult. Its a wash if you do the comparison both ways. Even Lebron, however wasnt carrying a team with that poor a frontcourt and defense anywhere out west.. him and Odom wouldnt have worked well either since odom is a ballhandler himself and often dribbles his way into a rythym.. something bron would interupt.

None of that is true. Lebron would be so amazing if he had a big man like Odom a guy who in his prime could give you 17-10-4 and 15-10-5. Kobe is the one who gets in the way of his teammates because of his selfish hurtful chucking.


Shaq has been swept out of the playoffs more than any other all time great.. Hakeem has like 8 first round exits in his career playing on bad teams.. and Im supposed to expect him to win 'multiple' playoff series with a terrible cast when reality has shown the exact opposite?

Shaq has led a weak cast to the ECF by himself with past prime Penny and even his cast to the 95 finals was weak for a finals team. So you are 100% wrong he has done the very thing. Btw look up Kobe's stats in his first ring and title. He practically did nothing in those finals.

All of the greats have except for Kobe who is a fraud. Other players who failed to win a first round series: Wade, Tmac, Gasol, Bosh. That is the level Kobe is at, but in fairness to Wade he did not have prime Odom.

Shaq is arguably GOAT peak and has more talent in one arm than Kobe does in his entire body.


Duncan had a tough time getting by the suns with a prime manu and parker , stacked spurs team.. now its a lock he beats pheonix with far worse players?

Honestly.. who buys your bullshit?:oldlol:

You don't think prime Duncan would beat the suns without Amare especially with prime Odom? LOL :roll:

One last thing-In Kobe's 7 NBA finals despite having loaded teams taking up all of the attention in the paint he has NEVER had a great NBA finals and his career playoff numbers aren't that impressive.
:roll:
25/5/5 on 44% fg on 20 shots per game? and that's with a loaded team for most of his career including unstoppable prime Shaq

[secund2nun]

GOAT laker

At his peak hes the best scorer in NBA history

Not even close. Shaq, Kareem, Wilt, and Magic were miles better than Kobe. And no his scoring is nowhere close to best ever. He jacks up a lot of shots with so so efficiency.

[tpols]

Odom was vastly superior to Cassell and Sprewell. They cannot be compared. Odom went 19/13 and 19/11/5 against the Suns both series and Kobe still failed to lead LA past them and Amare was out for one of the series.

Here are their averages for the 04 playoffs:

Cassell: 16.6/4.4/2.5 on 46% fg (12.6 shots per game).

Sprewell: 20/4/4 on 42% fg (17 shots per game)

None of those performances were impressive. 20 PPG means nothing if its on 17 shots per game 42% fg. Any scrub could do that if they took 17 shots per game.

Odom averaged :

19/11/5 on 50% fg in the 06 playoffs

19.5/13/2 on 48% fg in the 07 playoffs

Odom was better than Cassell and Sprewell combined...times 2.

Youre using a 7 game sample and a 5 game sample against a poor defensive team to assess the strength of a player. If you knew anything about statistics.. or context.. youd see how poor your argument really is. Lamar Odom has never come close to sustaining those averages over a long playoff run.

Boris Diaw averaged 17//6/5 on 53FG versus the Lakers.. So if you do a cross comparison for such a small sample size, it comes out with Odom being slightly more valuable than Boris Diaw. :oldlol:


An objective analysis would conclude that Sam Cassell was an equal impact player to Lamar Odom.. smart veteran efficient crafty PG who put up 20/7.. peak numbers for his career on that wolves team. And then you add guys like Sprewell who is infinitely better defensively and offensively than the lakers third option and a better assortment of role players.. its not even a debate.

04 KG had a better supporting cast than 05-07 Kobe.. too bad one of his star teammates got injured in the playoffs.




Duncan was how old in 2011/2012? You are comparing 35/36 year old Duncan with prime Kobe?

What? You said once Duncan was done on the spurs they would fall to rock bottom.:oldlol: We already saw him reduced to a role player status for two years and the spurs won 120 games and got two first seeds. Your argument was shot down.



All Kobe needed to compete for titles is a 19/10 big man?? Kobe was a first round loser before that big man AND that big man outperformed Kobe in the 09,10 finals AND playoffs.
Youre using a sample size of a couple years to draw conclusions for the entirety of a 17+ year career. And even the most hardcore haters wouldnt agree with your notion that Pau was better than Kobe from 08-10 Finals runs.


No GM would agree with you.. no coach.. no player.. no scout.. shit even the mascot would be laughing at you.





None of that is true. Lebron would be so amazing if he had a big man like Odom a guy who in his prime could give you 17-10-4 and 15-10-5. Kobe is the one who gets in the way of his teammates because of his selfish hurtful chucking.
LOL

Bron had a top 5 defensive and rebounding team in the east.. along with a coach known for pretty much only his defense. Doesnt matter if you give him a 14/9/5 Odom.. the defense and rebounding from the whole collective team would never approach a level that would be needed for his team to compete.



Those suns teams had boris diaw on them too.. Is Lebron really going to be able to do anything while hes in that straight jacket? We saw boris lock him up in a 7 game series.. going off your poor use of sample sizes this is an argument you cannot refute.:oldlol:



Shaq has led a weak cast to the ECF by himself with past prime Penny and even his cast to the 95 finals was weak for a finals team. So you are 100% wrong he has done the very thing. Btw look up Kobe's stats in his first ring and title. He practically did nothing in those finals
What does Kobes first title when he wasnt even in his prime have to do with a discussion on the topic of peak kobe? Did your mom drop you on your head as an infant?


All of the greats have except for Kobe who is a fraud. Other players who failed to win a first round series: Wade, Tmac, Gasol, Bosh. That is the level Kobe is at, but in fairness to Wade he did not have prime Odom.
LOL yes peak Kobe is equal to Bosh.. and Gasol. Godamn dont know why I even replied to this nonsense.:facepalm

[secund2nun]

[QUOTE]Youre using a 7 game sample and a 5 game sample against a poor defensive team to assess the strength of a player. If you knew anything about statistics.. or context.. youd see how poor your argument really is. Lamar Odom has never come close to sustaining those averages over a long playoff run.

Boris Diaw averaged 17//6/5 on 53FG versus the Lakers.. So if you do a cross comparison for such a small sample size, it comes out with Odom being slightly more valuable than Boris Diaw. :oldlol:

For one, it is only 7 games and 5 games because Kobe is a fraud who cannot even win a playoff series in his prime with prime Odom beasting.

Your argument is poor. You think Odom only did well against the Suns? he was not some fluke player. He was a legit player. For sakes he once averaged 17-10-4 and 15-10-5 throughout the course of an entire regular season.


An objective analysis would conclude that Sam Cassell was an equal impact player to Lamar Odom

LMAO WOW :roll: :roll:

If you honestly think the performances by the 2 KG teammates are better than Odom's then you are delusional. People will laugh at that stupid conclusion. :oldlol:



04 KG had a better supporting cast than 05-07 Kobe.. too bad one of his star teammates got injured in the playoffs.

Kobe had the better cast. Plus KG won 2 playoff series while Kobe won 0.




What? You said once Duncan was done on the spurs they would fall to rock bottom.:oldlol: We already saw him reduced to a role player status for two years and the spurs won 120 games and got two first seeds. Your argument was shot down.

Duncan is not a role player. He is still a top 5 player in the NBA this past season. I was bringing up how old duncan is still more impactful than Kobe ever was. You do not understand bball. Post defense and rebounding is the key to ball. Your argument is terrible.

Inefficient scoring is useless, which is why Kobe is a first round loser I bet you worship Brandon Jennings and Monta Ellis. They are way better than Tyson Chandler right?.


Youre using a sample size of a couple years to draw conclusions for the entirety of a 17+ year career. And even the most hardcore haters wouldnt agree with your notion that Pau was better than Kobe from 08-10 Finals runs.

Kobe was not even that good in the playoffs in any season> he is overrated. He is not even close to top 10 GOAT status. 25-5-5 44% LOL He has never had a great finals either.

No Gasol was better from 08-10 ESPECIALLY in the finals. You want me to break out the stats?



Bron had a top 5 defensive and rebounding team in the east.. along with a coach known for pretty much only his defense. Doesnt matter if you give him a 14/9/5 Odom.. the defense and rebounding from the whole collective team would never approach a level that would be needed for his team to compete.

His team sucked. what happened when Lebron left? THe cavs ended up with a first pick. Their next best player was Mo Williams a scrub. :roll:

Kobe had a strong cast in 06 than lebron did in 07 and that was young Lebron, yet he went to the finals while prime Kobe was a first round loser.


Those suns teams had boris diaw on them too.. Is Lebron really going to be able to do anything while hes in that straight jacket? We saw boris lock him up in a 7 game series.. going off your poor use of sample sizes this is an argument you cannot refute.:oldlol:

You have no bball iq. Duncan in the paint and the spurs packing the paint is why Lebron was slowed down but he still had like 25-11-7 on 45% fg.


What does Kobes first title when he wasnt even in his prime have to do with a discussion on the topic of peak kobe? Did your mom drop you on your head as an infant?


You are slow. It is showing how a real GOAT like Shaq can dominate without much of a team- check 97 Orlando. Kobe is a fake and a first round loser.


LOL yes peak Kobe is equal to Bosh.. and Gasol. Godamn dont know why I even replied to this nonsense.:facepalm

Yep first round loser just like them. Without prime Odom they probably dont even make the playoffs :roll:

[bizil]

Once again, the thing with Kobe u have to factor is his versatility. He could play and defend PG, SG, and SF at very effective and great levels. Offensively (passing and scoring), I could see why one would want Magic, Bird, or a Big O over Kobe. But I feel MJ, Lebron, and Kobe are on another level in way because of their versatility on both sides of the ball. We all know Bron is an extrodinary passer, but MJ and Kobe are two of the top 5 greatest passers ever at SG. So in my book, that puts Kobe's peak value anywhere from 6-10 all time. And arguably as high as number 2 for all perimeter players.

[HurricaneKid]

08 was better. Only difference between the two years is the finals opponent and the cast performing better, otherwise I don't see a case individually for 09.

They are more comparable than I remembered. I have no real disagreement other than the finish.

The end to the 08 season left a sour taste in my mouth. Playing poorly in a deciding game and losing by 39 < winning the title.