Prime Ray Allen vs James Harden

[Boston C's]

I've seen this up for discussion. Who is the better player and why

I vote ray for now but if Harden continues to improve the way he is he'll surpass him

[FatComputerNerd]

Ray all day

He was better at everything really, except volume scoring and turning the ball over a lot.

[Boston C's]

Ray all day

He was better at everything really, except volume scoring and turning the ball over a lot.

lol I agree...I won't rule out that harden can't surpass him one day but rays greatest trait was his ability to adapt he could be the number 1 option and score 25+ points a game a yr whether it would be dominating or playing off ball... Not only was ray to me a better scorer but he didnt have to be ball dominant to be effective...james is a bit better playmaker but his turnovers kill him in that regard Ray to me was better at harden in pretty much everything except getting to the line and passing (slightly worse)

[Myth]

Can you imagine 2011-12 Thunder having prime Ray Allen?

[TheReal Kendall]

Jesus Shuttlesworth

:bowdown: :bowdown:

[FatComputerNerd]

Best prototypical shooting guard ever.

[Boston C's]

Can you imagine 2011-12 Thunder having prime Ray Allen?

Ring for sure

[HomieWeMajor]

Sugar Ray

[NumberSix]

Jesus

[juju151111]

Ring for sure
You would have to use 21-22 year old ray Allen to make a fair comparison.Last year Harden was 23 AND he compares to a 23 year old Ray. This season will show Harden worth because at 24 is where Ray took a huge leap in 2000.

[Boston C's]

You would have to use 21-22 year old ray Allen to make a fair comparison.Last year Harden was 23 AND he compares to a 23 year old Ray. This season will show Harden worth because at 24 is where Ray took a huge leap in 2000.

well thats true but the poster I responded to said prime ray allen...honestly its probably better if you used a Ray allen before 2000 since that was the yr he became the man for the bucks but even so rays ego wasn't exactly huge by any means I feel like any version of ray could have plugged onto that okc team

and not to say hardens ego is huge its just that his game is predicated on him being ball dominant whereas ray can adapt his game to be anything from a shooter/slasher/spot up guy/ball dominant player and still be effective

[CavaliersFTW]

Best prototypical shooting guard ever.
Jerry West says hello

[juju151111]

well thats true but the poster I responded to said prime ray allen...honestly its probably better if you used a Ray allen before 2000 since that was the yr he became the man for the bucks but even so rays ego wasn't exactly huge by any means I feel like any version of ray could have plugged onto that okc team

and not to say hardens ego is huge its just that his game is predicated on him being ball dominant whereas ray can adapt his game to be anything from a shooter/slasher/spot up guy/ball dominant player and still be effective
His ego wasn't big. Harden didn't even want to leave he was fine behind KD and Westbrook. It was more of a money issue. Him and KD are cool to this day.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Ray Allen, fairly easily IMO

[Boston C's]

His ego wasn't big. Harden didn't even want to leave he was fine behind KD and Westbrook. It was more of a money issue. Him and KD are cool to this day.

Yea I fixed my previous post I know his ego wasnt big

[Johnny Jones]

James Harden right now isn't even close to prime Allen.

[Bigsmoke]

Ummmmmmm

I dont know

[longtime lurker]

Ray Allen. He had an all around game and wasn't reliant on refs calling his arm flails on the drive.

[Thorpesaurous]

I like Harden, but I think he's been blown out of proportion a bit. It was mentioned here, but warrants reinforcement. Ray was a much better player off the ball, and frankly far more well rounded with it. Ray could play a little point. Could be totally trusted in the middle of a break. Harden is really more of a pick and roll savant than anything else.

And that doesn't began to cover the chasm defensively. Ray was at worst a notch below elite as a defender. Harden is barely passable.

I'm curious to see Harden play with Howard, a guy who will want scheduled touches. Oddly they're a good pair in my head, because Howard doesn't really deserve the touches he demands to me, and he can excel in Harden's PnRs, while helping protect him on D.

But I don't think it's coincidence Harden was a 6th man on a great roster, which is not a bad thing.

It's also crazy he's only 23. Probably because he just doesn't seem as elitely athletic as you envision a 23 y/o all NBA SG.

[Proctor]

Ray and it has not and may never even be close.

[iamgine]

Ray Allen hardly ever made the playoff before joining Boston. Only 4 out of 11 seasons and two of those are first round losses.

[kNicKz]

Not sure if OP has ever seen a prime Ray Allen

[KyleKong]

Prime Jesus? Hell yes.

[#number6ix#]

http://blacksportsonline.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Blacksports-online-ray-allen-jesus-shuttlesworth.jpg

[D.J.]

People really forget how good of an all-around player was. Outside shooting, attacking the hoop, dunking, creating his own shot. There's really nothing James Harden does that prime Ray Allen couldn't do.

[DuMa]

Jesus

[spiegel]

Harden is 23 and hasnt even come close to reaching his potential.A very unfair comparison to compare a HOF to a guy who is so young. Compare then when they both are retierd.

[Boston C's]

Ray Allen hardly ever made the playoff before joining Boston. Only 4 out of 11 seasons and two of those are first round losses.

true but you have to look back at the teams he was surrounded with when he was the franchise player...they weren't very good, especially in seattle

[Boston C's]

I like Harden, but I think he's been blown out of proportion a bit. It was mentioned here, but warrants reinforcement. Ray was a much better player off the ball, and frankly far more well rounded with it. Ray could play a little point. Could be totally trusted in the middle of a break. Harden is really more of a pick and roll savant than anything else.

And that doesn't began to cover the chasm defensively. Ray was at worst a notch below elite as a defender. Harden is barely passable.

I'm curious to see Harden play with Howard, a guy who will want scheduled touches. Oddly they're a good pair in my head, because Howard doesn't really deserve the touches he demands to me, and he can excel in Harden's PnRs, while helping protect him on D.

But I don't think it's coincidence Harden was a 6th man on a great roster, which is not a bad thing.

It's also crazy he's only 23. Probably because he just doesn't seem as elitely athletic as you envision a 23 y/o all NBA SG.

I'm glad to see some ppl remember how good prime ray allen was...the newer generation that only saw him with boston seems to think all he was is a spot up shooter

[Smoke117]

I'm glad to see some ppl remember how good prime ray allen was...the newer generation that only saw him with boston seems to think all he was is a spot up shooter

No they see him as playing off the ball. Running off of screens is not spot up shooting. The main thing a prime Ray has over the current Harden is that he was a much more effective half court player offensively since he actually made mid range shots.

Harden also plays in the post rule change era where it's easier for guards to get to the line and score in general. Ray Allen was at his best in 2001 I'd say. He should have shot more during his Buck tenure. He was too unselfish on the Bucks in those early 2000's.

[TheBigVeto]

Ray.

[bizil]

Right now gotta roll with a peak Ray Ray over what Harden bring to the table now. But I don't think the gap is a huge one in terms of their skills. A peak Ray Allen right now would be the THE BEST SG in the L starting the season. With Kobe out and D-Wade with shit to prove somewhat, I think peak Ray would be the best SG starting the season.

It's just that Ray was in the all time best era for SG's EVER! U had Kobe, Wade, AI, T-Mac, Ray, Vince, Ginobli, and even Pierce who played SG very often back then. U got seven guys who will be in the HOF and T-Mac even has an outside shot at HOF as well. That's unheard of depth at pretty much ANY position for an era. So Ray was a great one amongst many greats at SG at the same time.

But don't get it twisted, Harden is a beast. Who could likely be just as good as peak Ray. But will he have the career that Ray had? Ray survived the Golden Era of SG's and became a top ten GOAT SG ever. So for Harden to eclipse Ray ultimately, he's gotta be at a top 10 GOAT level both talent AND accolades, longevity, and numbers wise.

[FatComputerNerd]

Jerry West says hello

I wouldn't consider West a prototypical 2-guard. Amazing player obviously, and definitely a better overall player, with far more career accolades than Ray, but he was only 6'2 and played at both guard spots. You could even call him one of the original combo-guards.

Ray at 6'5-6'6 fit the mold of prototypical 2-guard more.

[noob cake]

James Harden just turned 24 over the summer. Let us compare the two players at age 23, i.e. Harden's last season.

Allen/Harden at 23
PER: 18.9/23.0
TS: 56.4/%/60.0%
TRB%: 10.7/7.2%
AST%: 18.8/25.7%
STL%: 1.7/2.5%
BLK: 0.5/1.0%
WS/48: 0.146/0.206
PPG: 17.9/24.4
APG: 3.6/5.5
RPG: 4.2/4.6

Harden hasn't reached his prime yet, but at the same age: Harden shits on Allen in just about every way.

[Boston C's]

James Harden just turned 24 over the summer. Let us compare the two players at age 23, i.e. Harden's last season.

Allen/Harden at 23
PER: 18.9/23.0
TS: 56.4/%/60.0%
TRB%: 10.7/7.2%
AST%: 18.8/25.7%
STL%: 1.7/2.5%
BLK: 0.5/1.0%
WS/48: 0.146/0.206
PPG: 17.9/24.4
APG: 3.6/5.5
RPG: 4.2/4.6

Harden hasn't reached his prime yet, but at the same age: Harden shits on Allen in just about every way.

The question isn't comparing them at 23...if that were the case then there would be no discussion

[Boston C's]

No they see him as playing off the ball. Running off of screens is not spot up shooting. The main thing a prime Ray has over the current Harden is that he was a much more effective half court player offensively since he actually made mid range shots.

Harden also plays in the post rule change era where it's easier for guards to get to the line and score in general. Ray Allen was at his best in 2001 I'd say. He should have shot more during his Buck tenure. He was too unselfish on the Bucks in those early 2000's.

you really think ray in 01 was the best ray allen? I agree if ray got the green light in milwaukee he would have lit it up to the tune of at least 24 ppg the fact that he had to share shots with big dog (who was kind of a chucker) and sam I am was definitely huge but I thought when he first came to seattle he still had his athleticism and that his game was more well rounded...when he first came to seattle and was running the show he averaged 25,6,6 for the last 30 plus games of the season

[Boston C's]

Right now gotta roll with a peak Ray Ray over what Harden bring to the table now. But I don't think the gap is a huge one in terms of their skills. A peak Ray Allen right now would be the THE BEST SG in the L starting the season. With Kobe out and D-Wade with shit to prove somewhat, I think peak Ray would be the best SG starting the season.

It's just that Ray was in the all time best era for SG's EVER! U had Kobe, Wade, AI, T-Mac, Ray, Vince, Ginobli, and even Pierce who played SG very often back then. U got seven guys who will be in the HOF and T-Mac even has an outside shot at HOF as well. That's unheard of depth at pretty much ANY position for an era. So Ray was a great one amongst many greats at SG at the same time.

But don't get it twisted, Harden is a beast. Who could likely be just as good as peak Ray. But will he have the career that Ray had? Ray survived the Golden Era of SG's and became a top ten GOAT SG ever. So for Harden to eclipse Ray ultimately, he's gotta be at a top 10 GOAT level both talent AND accolades, longevity, and numbers wise.

perfect answer.. only disagreement was that yes pierce played SG but he was mainly a SF and tmac by the mid 2000s was a SF player

but yea ray definitely played in the golden era of swingmen and any of those guys would be the best SG in the league today in their prime

[bizil]

perfect answer.. only disagreement was that yes pierce played SG but he was mainly a SF and tmac by the mid 2000s was a SF player

but yea ray definitely played in the golden era of swingmen and any of those guys would be the best SG in the league today in their prime

No doubt Pierce will go down as a HOF SF. But for 4 seasons in that Golden Era 2000s, Pierce was listed as an SG. Who of course played SF like many swingmen do. But T-Mac will go down historically as a SG in my opinion ultimately. And most of the years T-Mac played PERIOD, he was listed as an SG. Sites such as Basketball reference points these things out. But other than Ray and AI, most of those guys fufilled plenty of swingman style stuff at one point or another. Basically, I was just pointing out the HOF depth that the SG spot had in that 9-10 year stretch.

[Mr Exlax]

Ray all day. The only thing I disagree with is what James Harden had to do for us to make the playoffs with a brand new team full of brand new players. I don't think Ray Ray ever had to do that.

[Smoke117]

you really think ray in 01 was the best ray allen? I agree if ray got the green light in milwaukee he would have lit it up to the tune of at least 24 ppg the fact that he had to share shots with big dog (who was kind of a chucker) and sam I am was definitely huge but I thought when he first came to seattle he still had his athleticism and that his game was more well rounded...when he first came to seattle and was running the show he averaged 25,6,6 for the last 30 plus games of the season

Yes. Most people probably don't remember how great he was in the playoffs that year, but he averaged: 25.1ppg 6.0apg 4.1rpg 1.3spg .477%fg .479%3pt (and that's through 18 games on 6.6 attempts) .920%ft. The thing is, is as you said...Robinson was a chucker. In that 2001 season they both averaged 22ppg, but Ray did it on 16fga's, while Robinson did it on 19.2. Ray had a .612ts% to Robinson's .523%. What the hell was he doing taking more shots than Allen. Ray just never asserted himself enough on the Bucks. He should have been averaging 24-25ppg.

It's hard for me to say a Sonics Ray Allen is better when he was at his peak as far as athleticism on the Bucks (for the most part) and was just as money with his jump shot then as he was on the Sonics. Who knows though, Rays efficiency drops (though it's always at least good because his 3pt% and ft% are always high) on the Sonics since they had nobody else to score but him or Lewis, so the focus was always on him. He did have that great playoff run in 2005 though.

[Boston C's]

No doubt Pierce will go down as a HOF SF. But for 4 seasons in that Golden Era 2000s, Pierce was listed as an SG. Who of course played SF like many swingmen do. But T-Mac will go down historically as a SG in my opinion ultimately. And most of the years T-Mac played PERIOD, he was listed as an SG. Sites such as Basketball reference points these things out. But other than Ray and AI, most of those guys fufilled plenty of swingman style stuff at one point or another. Basically, I was just pointing out the HOF depth that the SG spot had in that 9-10 year stretch.

I always kind of forget pierce played a few full seasons at the SG lol but yea I know what your sayin for sure :cheers:

[Boston C's]

Yes. Most people probably don't remember how great he was in the playoffs that year, but he averaged: 25.1ppg 6.0apg 4.1rpg 1.3spg .477%fg .479%3pt (and that's through 18 games on 6.6 attempts) .920%ft. The thing is, is as you said...Robinson was a chucker. In that 2001 season they both averaged 22ppg, but Ray did it on 16fga's, while Robinson did it on 19.2. Ray had a .612ts% to Robinson's .523%. What the hell was he doing taking more shots than Allen. Ray just never asserted himself enough on the Bucks. He should have been averaging 24-25ppg.

It's hard for me to say a Sonics Ray Allen is better when he was at his peak as far as athleticism on the Bucks (for the most part) and was just as money with his jump shot then as he was on the Sonics. Who knows though, Rays efficiency drops (though it's always at least good because his 3pt% and ft% are always high) on the Sonics since they had nobody else to score but him or Lewis, so the focus was always on him. He did have that great playoff run in 2005 though.

I never knew why robinson shot as much as he did it just baffled me...everyone knew by that point ray was the guy that made the bucks go but yet he continued to chuck lol...robinson was good but at that point it was clear as day that ray was the best player...it irritates me sometimes when ppl say that its questionable if ray was the bucks best player on the team

Im biased when it comes to sonics ray allen a bit because the sonics were my favorite team lol but yea like you said there wasn't much around him in seattle...I always found his playoff run in 05 to be as impressive as his 01 run given the injury circumstances and lack of talent around him

[Sharmer]

They are different types of players, one being a high volume scorer the other a high efficiency shooter when in his prime could score from any where on the court.

I pick Ray but if Harden gets a license to chuck, he's pure scoring numbers will convince a lot that he's better.

[Boston C's]

They are different types of players, one being a high volume scorer the other a high efficiency shooter when in his prime could score from any where on the court.

I pick Ray but if Harden gets a license to chuck, he's pure scoring numbers will convince a lot that he's better.

If ray was a chucker he'd probably be a 28 ppg type player in his prime and if he handled the rock as much as harden he'd average more assists (see seattle days when he got traded to seattle he averaged 6 apg through 30 plus games)

[Reggie43]

I never knew why robinson shot as much as he did it just baffled me...everyone knew by that point ray was the guy that made the bucks go but yet he continued to chuck lol...robinson was good but at that point it was clear as day that ray was the best player...it irritates me sometimes when ppl say that its questionable if ray was the bucks best player on the team

Im biased when it comes to sonics ray allen a bit because the sonics were my favorite team lol but yea like you said there wasn't much around him in seattle...I always found his playoff run in 05 to be as impressive as his 01 run given the injury circumstances and lack of talent around him

Its funny how you claim that Robinson was a chucker when in reality in the six seasons he played with Ray, Big Dog shot a higher percentage in 5 of those years while delivering comparable all around numbers.

In regards to Milwaukees big three of Robinson/Cassel/Allen, Robinson was generally considered the main guy most of those years but I alway felt that Sam Cassel was the teams most important player because of his leadership, playmaking and clutch play. Ray Allen was the rising star but never really separated himself from the other two numbers wise and if you look back at the stats Cassel was the teams most productive player

[Reggie43]

If ray was a chucker he'd probably be a 28 ppg type player in his prime and if he handled the rock as much as harden he'd average more assists (see seattle days when he got traded to seattle he averaged 6 apg through 30 plus games)

Is 26.4 points on 21 shots with a fg% of .438 not considered chucking?

[aj1987]

Is 26.4 points on 21 shots with a fg% of .438 not considered chucking?
He never got all the BS FT's that Harden gets.

[Reggie43]

He never got all the BS FT's that Harden gets.

True

[Boston C's]

Its funny how you claim that Robinson was a chucker when in reality in the six seasons he played with Ray, Big Dog shot a higher percentage in 5 of those years while delivering comparable all around numbers.

In regards to Milwaukees big three of Robinson/Cassel/Allen, Robinson was generally considered the main guy most of those years but I alway felt that Sam Cassel was the teams most important player because of his leadership, playmaking and clutch play. Ray Allen was the rising star but never really separated himself from the other two numbers wise and if you look back at the stats Cassel was the teams most productive player

Yea but isn't it some coincidence that the yr they had their deep playoff run ray shot the highest percentage and some coincidence that in that same yr it was irrefutable that ray was their best player in that run, ray being their best player and playing like a superstar that yr was the reason the bucks got close to the finals... I think doing 25,6 and 4 is much better then 17, 6, and 4 or 19.5, 6, and 3 lets not forget about all the big playoff games ray had to save the bucks asses in the playoffs

when ray made the leap in his third yr I don't think there was any question on who the best player on the bucks was

[Boston C's]

Is 26.4 points on 21 shots with a fg% of .438 not considered chucking?

not sayin its not and its only on average efficiency so I can't refute that...but in context that last yr with seattle he didn't have much to work with as rashard his sidekick was in and out of the lineup so basically ray was the only legit scoring option on that team...hell I wish he shot more that yr a lot of times he went in with earl watson damien wilkins, johan petro/swift as his starting mates...who of those guys are capable scorers if anything he should of went on full on kobe mode like when kobe was playin with scrubs

when you have quality teammates chucking is definitely something to frown upon but I believe that yr was the only yr ray took 20 plus shots a game

[Sharmer]

Prime ray was in 05-06, 25PPG 45% and 41%, he scored 1 PPG more in 06-07 but played less games during regular season due to injury with slightly less efficiency.

[Boston C's]

Prime ray was in 05-06, 25PPG 45% and 41%, he scored 1 PPG more in 06-07 but played less games during regular season due to injury with slightly less efficiency.

numbers wise considering he played almost the full 82 yea but if it weren't for the ankle injury 06-07 would have been his best yr easily...he probably would have been a 27 ppg scorer by the end of the yr if he played the full schedule at least 26 ppg but even then I felt his peak was 04-05 considering the supporting cast he had, leading the sonics to 52 wins and what he was able to do in the playoffs with an even more limited supporting cast due to injuries to their second and third leading scorers

[Reggie43]

Yea but isn't it some coincidence that the yr they had their deep playoff run ray shot the highest percentage and some coincidence that in that same yr it was irrefutable that ray was their best player in that run, ray being their best player and playing like a superstar that yr was the reason the bucks got close to the finals... I think doing 25,6 and 4 is much better then 17, 6, and 4 or 19.5, 6, and 3 lets not forget about all the big playoff games ray had to save the bucks asses in the playoffs

when ray made the leap in his third yr I don't think there was any question on who the best player on the bucks was

Forgot about that playoff run he had which was true he was clear cut the best but was not the case in the other years mainly because Ray was still developing as a player. That year was the reason most people including myself consider this as his prime and not his Seattle days where he just shot more and was much less athletic/explosive

[Boston C's]

Forgot about that playoff run he had which was true he was clear cut the best but was not the case in the other years mainly because Ray was still developing as a player. That year was the reason most people including myself consider this as his prime and not his Seattle days where he just shot more and was much less athletic/explosive

I get what your saying of course when ray first came in he wasn't the guy...it took him 3 yrs to get to that level... I'm just saying when he finally got there it wasn't a question as to who the best player on that team was...while I do agree he was less explosive with seattle I always felt that he developed his offensive game a bit more when he was there...since he lost some of his athleticism with the bucks that he made up for it by having a decent post up game and scoring off the dribble more but we'll agree to disagree I'm not gonna try and sway that opinion because your points are valid and like I mentioned earlier I'm a bit biased because the sonics are my favorite team lol

[Reggie43]

not sayin its not and its only on average efficiency so I can't refute that...but in context that last yr with seattle he didn't have much to work with as rashard his sidekick was in and out of the lineup so basically ray was the only legit scoring option on that team...hell I wish he shot more that yr a lot of times he went in with earl watson damien wilkins, johan petro/swift as his starting mates...who of those guys are capable scorers if anything he should of went on full on kobe mode like when kobe was playin with scrubs

when you have quality teammates chucking is definitely something to frown upon but I believe that yr was the only yr ray took 20 plus shots a game

Looking back at the stats I was surprised that Ray even played less games than Rashard, 55 games for Ray and 60 for Rashard. It was really a shame that Rashard never developed to be an all around player an was content on shooting jumpers all day. He had the potential to be a double double type player with his combination of size and athleticism but never did

[Reggie43]

I get what your saying of course when ray first came in he wasn't the guy...it took him 3 yrs to get to that level... I'm just saying when he finally got there it wasn't a question as to who the best player on that team was...while I do agree he was less explosive with seattle I always felt that he developed his offensive game a bit more when he was there...since he lost some of his athleticism with the bucks that he made up for it by having a decent post up game and scoring off the dribble more but we'll agree to disagree I'm not gonna try and sway that opinion because your points are valid and like I mentioned earlier I'm a bit biased because the sonics are my favorite team lol

Your points got me thinking in which year he was really better lol, but I think I would still take the more efficient and athletic version of Ray in 2001 even though he did lack the experience and versatility in his offensive game

[Boston C's]

Your points got me thinking in which year he was really better lol, but I think I would still take the more efficient and athletic version of Ray in 2001 even though he did lack the experience and versatility in his offensive game

definitely understandable...I guess its just a preference on my part but your probably right anyway lol

[Budadiiii]

2012 Harden shits on any version of Allen. Classic case of nostalgia from you dumb ass nerds.

[Boston C's]

2012 Harden shits on any version of Allen. Classic case of nostalgia from you dumb ass nerds.

well I guess your in the minority lol...seriously is harden your lover or somethin you just got a bit defensive for no reason

[juju151111]

2012 Harden shits on any version of Allen. Classic case of nostalgia from you dumb ass nerds.
Are you ****ing retarded?

[aj1987]

2012 Harden shits on any version of Allen. Classic case of nostalgia from you dumb ass nerds.
Nostalgia? Allen was averaging 25 PPG 6 seasons ago. :facepalm

[Sharmer]

Ray is still averaging double digits as the 4th option in Miami and still makes big plays. It's fair to say that he would have been 25 PPG player in all those years at the Celtics, he did score 55 point against the Bulls when KG was out and had other big scoring games when needed. But he opted to be the team man and now was two rings, three finals, so he probably be remembered a lot more than Harden.

Harden career is still a head of him, but I have in the the chucker mode plus he's game disappear in the playoffs.

[Bigsmoke]

Nostalgia? Allen was averaging 25 PPG 6 seasons ago. :facepalm

James Harden averaged 26/6/5 last year and led his team to the playoffs.