Swiss Initiative Would Give $2,800 a Month to Everyone

[MavsSuperFan]

[QUOTE]A movement to give every person an

[Real Men Wear Green]

Where does this money come from?

[MavsSuperFan]

Where does this money come from?
taxing the rich I would guess.

[Real Men Wear Green]

taxing the rich I would guess.
It makes sense for the wealthy to pay more in taxes because they can better afford it. But you can't go too far to the point where you're punishing them for being rich. Did whoever came up with this idea crunch the numbers to see whether or not the wealthy could support the necessary tax hike?

[knickballer]

The idea is to replace social insurances, tax deduction and other grants. I do not think this necessarily means more taxation. Or if more it would not be a huge difference.

Certainly more spending will happen, but the Swiss franc will get so ****ing inflated.

You're right. I know Switzerland is a pretty lenient place when it comes to social welfare and benefits from the government so perhaps this is a cheaper alternative for them.

[Real Men Wear Green]

The idea is to replace social insurances, tax deduction and other grants. I do not think this necessarily means more taxation. Or if more it would not be a huge difference.

Certainly more spending will happen, but the Swiss franc will get so ****ing inflated.
If they actually spend that much on each citizen then I guess they're good.

[knickballer]

oh damn, I misread the title and thought it said $2,800 a year.



BRB, booking my flight to Zurich.

[OldSkoolball#52]

I actually prefer something like this on principle than a bunch of handout programs that are only used by people who meet certain - and easily defrauded - requirements and get abused constantly.

If literally everyone in the country receives it, then thats true equality. Even tho it obviously wont matter much to people already living comfortably, it is still an equally applied policy rather than a program grounded in entitlement and class warfare. Those who can use the assistance can budget correctly with it and if they dont, the government can say "We gave it to you, if you didnt spend it wisely thats on you."



American liberals pound the drum for "equality" when the word is convenient, such as in arguments about same sex marriage, or wage disparity, but suddenly dont care so much about true EQUALITY when it comes to affirmative action quotas, progressive tax rates, respecting major religious groups as much as they respect all the minority ones etc.


Of course, liberals will now point to Switzerland and say "see, how come they can give money out but the stupid republican rednecks will never let us do it!!!!" Obviously not realizing on average the Swiss are much more responsible people. And if we wanted to make the whining liberal disappear very quickly, we could begin to pull out a chart about which demographics in America spend money the most wisely. He wont stick around to see and acknowledge those facts. Even being present in a discussion about facts that indicate unsuccessful cultural habits in the melting pot might make his worst fear come true. Someone might think he's...... *gulp*.... Racist!!!! AAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

[knickballer]

Only for citizens.

I understood that part but apply for citizenship?

Alot of migrants from the third world get citizenship in Switzerland and other western European countries :confusedshrug:

[OldSkoolball#52]

I understood that part but apply for citizenship?

Alot of migrants from the third world get citizenship in Switzerland and other western European countries :confusedshrug:



Yeah, thats a good point actually, not sure how something like this would work in countries that are lax on immigration. You are just asking for an explosion of unskilled migrants.


Just another reason to have the guts to regulate your own borders instead of saying "hey everyone, we wanna show you how super not racist we are, so we wont pay attention to immigration!! Borders are just stupid lines you guys, oh and we still hate george bush!! Yay!!! Arent we hip and intellectual??? #ProgressivePower!!

[knickballer]

Yeah, thats a good point actually, not sure how something like this would work in countries that are lax on immigration. You are just asking for an explosion of unskilled migrants.


Just another reason to have the guts to regulate your own borders instead of saying "hey everyone, we wanna show you how super not racist we are, so we wont pay attention to immigration!!

Yea. Alot of the Western European countries are being flooded with immigrants. Lots of them are unskilled too which makes them a burden to the state. It's a horrible situation because alot of the immigrants/migrants are coming from god forsaken places and leaving everything behind to enter these Western European countries which are filled and can't accommodate them.

[OldSkoolball#52]

They are not in EU which gives them the freedom to choose if they want to take in refugees or not etc. And as I said only citizens would get this. Being a pemanent resident doesn't give you a citizenship.



Ok. Good to know. My comment was not Swiss-specific because I did not know their immigration laws and regulations. I was just pointing out that in general, this type of policy could be problematic for countries in which, for example, a person can just show up and drop an anchor baby and be immediately declared a citizen.

[OldSkoolball#52]

Yea. Alot of the Western European countries are being flooded with immigrants. Lots of them are unskilled too which makes them a burden to the state. It's a horrible situation because alot of the immigrants/migrants are coming from god forsaken places and leaving everything behind to enter these Western European countries which are filled and can't accommodate them.


Yep. Its a tough situation. But protecting your own things doesnt make you cold-hearted the way libs misguidedly think.


Im always reminded of the scene in Titanic where even the full lifeboats get mobbed by people who are drowning, which capsizes them and they all end up drowning. If your boat is at capacity, its just not logical to pull anyone else on, no matter how much your bleeding little pvssy heart wants to ever since your freshman philosophy professor told you that you should and now youre a militant liberal whiner because thats the in-crowd you wanna run with and john stewart said so on TV.

Also anyone whose been on a plane knows the instruction if the cabin loses air pressure is to SECURE YOUR OWN MASK FIRST - that way you can better assist those who need it. Liberals want their countries to bend over backwards accommodating immigrants when they dont even have their shit in order for their own citizens.


Liberals: Desperate to help, but too ignorant and undisciplined to take a patient, long term approach so they just run around tearing out their hair screaming GIVE MORE MONEY TO EVERYONE, NOW!!!!

[It's A VC3!!!]

$2,800 a month to the 8 million citizens of Switzerland is $268,800,000,000 annually.

Where is over a quarter of a trillion dollars going to come from?

[OldSkoolball#52]

$2,800 a month to the 8 million citizens of Switzerland is $268,800,000,000 annually.

Where is over a quarter of a trillion dollars going to come from?



Yeah, irrespective of the general idea of something like this, the proposed amount in this case does seem ludicrous.

[MavsSuperFan]

I understood that part but apply for citizenship?

Alot of migrants from the third world get citizenship in Switzerland and other western European countries :confusedshrug:
I am not sure but I have heard getting citizen ship in the nordic countries is really difficult.

I think most of the migrants are to countries like france and britain.

Edit: or they live there but arent citizens.

[MavsSuperFan]

$2,800 a month to the 8 million citizens of Switzerland is $268,800,000,000 annually.

Where is over a quarter of a trillion dollars going to come from?
thats a good point there GDP is only

632.2 billion USD (2012)

there are 8 million people in switzerland, but I wonder how many are citizens and how many are just legal residents.

[Swaggin916]

So I guess unskilled migrant workers work all the jobs that don't pay people enough to motivate them to work? Sounds like a good deal to me man.

[unbreakable]

It makes sense for the wealthy to pay more in taxes because they can better afford it. But you can't go too far to the point where you're punishing them for being rich. Did whoever came up with this idea crunch the numbers to see whether or not the wealthy could support the necessary tax hike?


lol at your choice of words .. "PUNISHING the rich" LMAO as if a little tax hike is really punishing the worlds elite. get real, scumbag. these people deserve to be taxed.. if its the difference between a 15th yacht or 2,000 people eating for a year , we know whats more important.

http://www.collapseboard.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/flipping-the-bird.jpg
%$ck you

[DCL]

if the 2,800 is taken directly from budget cuts of existing welfare programs, then it's actually a clever way for the government to eliminate the burden of welfare in the future.

this assumption will hold true if one expects inflation to continue while those payments of 2,800 remain fixed or have extremely minimal cost-of-living adjustments.

because one would expect the costs of welfare to go up along with inflation in the future, but if those welfare programs are replaced by fixed payments now, then it's a hedge against inflation for the government.

citizens might enjoy that 2,800 amount temporarily, but that 2,800 will be a pittance when all prices rise.

then what's going to happen is that all the lazy people who stopped working will revolt and complain that they're not getting paid enough for NOT working. :lol

[dunksby]

That's another socialist Euroshithole for MavsSuperfan to fume over :lol

[CeltsGarlic]

That's another socialist Euroshithole for MavsSuperfan to fume over :lol

Swiss is the best place ever.

[dunksby]

Swiss is the best place ever.
Nah, a socialist hell where those sneaky Commies have disguised themselves to cleverly stash hard earned dollars of Americans. They are probably intending to give out this $2800 a month using money Americans have saved there. Where else they gonna get dollars anyway?

[fiddy]

Nah, a socialist hell where those sneaky Commies have disguised themselves to cleverly stash hard earned dollars of Americans. They are probably intending to give out this $2800 a month using money Americans have saved there. Where else they gonna get dollars anyway?
Dollars=just paper, its not backed up with anything besides your government.

[CeltsGarlic]

Nah, a socialist hell where those sneaky Commies have disguised themselves to cleverly stash hard earned dollars of Americans. They are probably intending to give out this $2800 a month using money Americans have saved there. Where else they gonna get dollars anyway?
lol you stupid or what? they are not going to pay in dollars :lol They have their own currency.
omg some of you on this site smh

:roll:

[dunksby]

lol you stupid or what? they are not going to pay in dollars :lol They have their own currency.
omg some of you on this site smh

:roll:
That was obviously trolling :facepalm

[CeltsGarlic]

That was obviously trolling :facepalm

dang then

[Blue&Orange]

I see from they are coming, i like their view on how there are millions working many hours while other want to work and can't.

Here in Europe unemployment is a big issue right now, but what make me laugh is the notion that there is something that can be done. Every passing year machines replace humans more, do it yourself services are popping out like weed where in the past you had someone doing it for yourself, jobs will continue to be lost.

IF you think human population is projected to almost double, things are going to go really well, even more with countries broke because they gave their wealth to private corporations.


But much better than this, it's Swiss salary ratio between low level workers and top level brass. I don't know if it's already a law, but it's something that i think it's obligatory everywhere. A CEO could only make X of what the lowest income worker makes.

My country have one of the most fragile economies in the EU, but somehow the CEO's are among the most well paid in the EU, because they are doing such a wonderful job.


MORALIZATION.

[DonD13]

:lol you guys

I'm from Switzerland.
Maybe two things to consider:

1) 100k signatures is nothing.
The found 100k signatures for stupider shit that had no chance in the real voting. But I guess you can't expect Americans to know about direct democracy.

2) 2800$ is nothing.
Seriously, as an adult you can't live with that here. But I know, Americans think it's ok to let grown men work for 8$.

[BRabbiT]

this is really interesting. wow.





[QUOTE]
We spoke to Daniel Straub, one of the people behind the initiative, to get a better understanding of what the proposal really means, why it is so radical, and what the world could learn from it.

* How did this idea come to be?
Daniel Straub: "A lot of people have proposed this idea. For example Thomas Paine in the United States or also the famous psychologist Erich Fromm has written about it in the sixties."


* Why choose a minimum income rather than, say, a higher minimum wage?

Straub: "[I][B]We are not proposing a minimum income

[Rolando]

:lol you guys

I'm from Switzerland.
Maybe two things to consider:

1) 100k signatures is nothing.
The found 100k signatures for stupider shit that had no chance in the real voting. But I guess you can't expect Americans to know about direct democracy.

2) 2800$ is nothing.
Seriously, as an adult you can't live with that here. But I know, Americans think it's ok to let grown men work for 8$.

Yep, I've tried living in Switzerland before. A one bedroom apartment in the middle of nowhere will cost you 1000 per month. Going out to have a pizza and a beer will take about 30. Place is DAMNED expensive.

[Brunch@Five]

I think the unconditional basic income is a good idea. It will actually increase the incentive to work compared to the existing, conditional social welfare programmes. It also will reduce bureaucracy and thus costs of administration that do not produce any value for society.
The net welfare benefits of such basic income is well researched by behaviourial economics and game theory alike.

[knickballer]

Yep, I've tried living in Switzerland before. A one bedroom apartment in the middle of nowhere will cost you 1000 per month. Going out to have a pizza and a beer will take about 30. Place is DAMNED expensive.


Hmm. Sounds alot like the NY metro area but I have heard that food/eating out is much more expensive in the EU countries.

[DonD13]

Hmm. Sounds alot like the NY metro area but I have heard that food/eating out is much more expensive in the EU countries.

only in 1 or 2 countries way up North.

[Rolando]

only in 1 or 2 countries way up North.

Living in Germany now. Food is incredibly cheap here. But, as you mention, up in Scandinavia, things are a bit pricey.

[ALBballer]

Normally I'm against such a thing but with a small country like Switzerland that has a great economy and if they are strict about allowing the monies to only citizens than such a thing could work. Open borders and a social welfare state will never work.

Switzerland is constantly ranked as one of the top 5 places to live in the world. But I have a feeling they are benefiting from the trade with the EU and if the EU does break up, the Swiss economy will suffer.

[OldSkoolball#52]

2800 a month is definitely not nothing even if swiss cost of living is high. Thats high than the average income of like 2/3rds of the world (probably way more than that actually). Some perspective is definitely needed.



Liberal Political Tactics 101 is to always keep the designation of "rich" at an arbitrary level just ABOVE their own incomes.

If they were to begin acknowledging how comparatively fortunate they are and how much opportunity theyre afforded with even an entry level job in a first world democracy..... Then who would consider them victims and redistribute more money to them?

Thats the big con of liberalism. Liberals play the "equal income" card under the guise of altruism and fairness, but the truth is theyre just trying to get more money from someone else for themselves. In order to spend, or to dole out to certain groups they want to play hero for and achieve a self satisfied moral superiority. They want to make things "equal" by having the "rich" give more to them, rather than giving some of what they have to starving kids in Malaysia.

Thats why they arent trying to hear about $2,800 feeding an entire starving African nation for a day. Theyre talkin bout what a pittance that is for some worker in a Swiss chocolate factory! How DARE they insult him with only 2,800 every month for free!

Its the losers who think being overly emotional, overly sensitive, overly generous is equatable to being INTELLIGENT who are liberals. They WANT to be smart, but they dont have the testicles to make difficult, logical decisions. So they just pose, construct strawmen, use emotional ploys and arbitrary comparisons and class warfare.

Theyre losers.

[OldSkoolball#52]

:
But I know, Americans think it's ok to let grown men work for 8$.

This sums it all up right here.

"LET" a grown man make $8 an hour.

As if a grown man shouldnt be responsible for negotiating his wage/salary. As if he cant use his free time to pursue secondary sources of income. Like he cant work his way up to manager or some other promotion from within that offers a higher pay scale.

Like the government should be responsible for the personal finances of every grown man out there.



"LET a grown man make $8/hr..."



Ladies and gentleman........ Liberals.

[DonD13]

ok, I exagerated, that communism talk got me dizzy :lol


@OldSkoolball#52: stay mad because we're doing better in every economic category :pimp:

[OldSkoolball#52]

@OldSkoolball#52: stay mad that we're doing better in every economic category :pimp:


Oh, youre doin pretty well, huh?

Then I guess by your logic you owe us a little somethin somethin. Youre doin better than us, and I dont care how or why, but I expect yall to start ponyin up. Everyone deserves to have equal.


Make that check out to TREASURY OF THE UNITED STATES OF 'MERICA, please

[I<3NBA]

Oh, youre doin pretty well, huh?

Then I guess by your logic you owe us a little somethin somethin. Youre doin better than us, and I dont care how or why, but I expect yall to start ponyin up. Everyone deserves to have equal.


Make that check out to TREASURY OF THE UNITED STATES OF 'MERICA, please
that wouldn't make everyone equal dumbass.

[OldSkoolball#52]

that wouldn't make everyone equal dumbass.


This isn't about equality bruh, except for when I say it is.

This is about them having more stuff than we do so they need to give us some. We deserve it because we have less. THATS the kind of equality we need to band together as liberals and ensure.


Ya smelly bitch.

[Swaggin916]

This sums it all up right here.

"LET" a grown man make $8 an hour.

As if a grown man shouldnt be responsible for negotiating his wage/salary. As if he cant use his free time to pursue secondary sources of income. Like he cant work his way up to manager or some other promotion from within that offers a higher pay scale.

Like the government should be responsible for the personal finances of every grown man out there.



"LET a grown man make $8/hr..."



Ladies and gentleman........ Liberals.

It's funny because I agree with this perspective in many ways, but I totally support systems that encourage freedom from debt. In this day and age with the technology we have, being born here should be an enjoyable experience with the potential to be even more rewarding. The fact we are still born in debt to the world seems barbaric to me. Give people a baseline to live comfortably and let them decide if they want more... and they will always want more on average. They will want to be a part of something more.

Why couldn't that work? And would people still find a way to be unhappy? (Probably lol).

[MavsSuperFan]

That's another socialist Euroshithole for MavsSuperfan to fume over :lol
:confusedshrug:
I wish we had more social welfare in America. I am overall a liberal.

[highwhey]

Semi interesting article:

What Happens When You Just Give Money To Poor People? http://n.pr/1afnF2Q

I'm on my phone so the link is mobile

[secund2nun]

They also have a proposal that will make the CEO's max pay limited to 12 times higher than the lowest paid worker in the corporation. We need that badly here.

The guaranteed income of 2800/month is a great idea. I wish we had that. There is a reason the European countries have much more free time and are much happier.

[Real Men Wear Green]

lol at your choice of words .. "PUNISHING the rich" LMAO as if a little tax hike is really punishing the worlds elite. get real, scumbag. these people deserve to be taxed.. if its the difference between a 15th yacht or 2,000 people eating for a year , we know whats more important.

http://www.collapseboard.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/flipping-the-bird.jpg
%$ck you
I sometimes wonder how I became an idiot magnet. I'm not sure what I said to make you hate me this much but I'm just going to put you in a zone with certain other posters that pine for my attention but will get no response to whatever point they think they're making until they learn to speak with respect. People like you that just lash out at total strangers are a joke to me because you would never talk to me like that if we met face to face. I know this because if you really talked like that all the time you would have received the ass-kicking you deserve far more than any kind of serious reply to your coprolalia explosion.

[rufuspaul]

$2,800 a month to the 8 million citizens of Switzerland is $268,800,000,000 annually.

Where is over a quarter of a trillion dollars going to come from?


Step 1: Vote in referendum.

Step 2: ????

Step 3: Profit

[Dresta]

ok, I exagerated, that communism talk got me dizzy :lol


@OldSkoolball#52: stay mad because we're doing better in every economic category :pimp:
Switzerland's success has grown around low taxation and the enticement of multinationals - i don't see how this hurts his argument, rather it works in his favour.

Historically Switzerland has always had low levels of inflation and aimed to limit inflation and thus encourage saving. For example, between 1913-58 Swiss savings retained 70% of their true value, the US around 58%, and France and Italy only around 11%. Shows where socialism gets you tbh.

Follow the heavy spending model of the rest of Europe, and Switzerland will head to the same place they're all accelerating towards: down the toilet.

[Jailblazers7]

I think the unconditional basic income is a good idea. It will actually increase the incentive to work compared to the existing, conditional social welfare programmes. It also will reduce bureaucracy and thus costs of administration that do not produce any value for society.
The net welfare benefits of such basic income is well researched by behaviourial economics and game theory alike.

Yeah, I tend to agree with this. The trouble with many welfare programs is that essentially create cliff effects where someone making $9,999 qualifies but someone making $10,000 doesn't. It would reduce the tendency for hover around welfare qualification levels which is a good thing.

It could really be a watershed moment for reducing government bureaucracy because it serves to eliminate the need for many programs. A basic income provides food security, unemployment insurance, a min wage, social security, etc. It erases a lot of red tape by simply giving every citizen a check for the same amount.

It is certainly an interesting policy discussion even if it proves to be too difficult politically to get passed.

[rufuspaul]

Yeah, I tend to agree with this. The trouble with many welfare programs is that essentially create cliff effects where someone making $9,999 qualifies but someone making $10,000 doesn't. It would reduce the tendency for hover around welfare qualification levels which is a good thing.

It could really be a watershed moment for reducing government bureaucracy because it serves to eliminate the need for many programs. A basic income provides food security, unemployment insurance, a min wage, social security, etc. It erases a lot of red tape by simply giving every citizen a check for the same amount.

It is certainly an interesting policy discussion even if it proves to be too difficult politically to get passed.


Good points. It will be interesting to follow if by some chance it passes.

[Dresta]

It certainly beats the hell out of the ramshackle welfare programs we currently employ.