Duncan or bron. who's higher all time?

[The Iron Fist]

What say you?

[russwest0]

Why are threads like this even made?

It's easily Duncan to anyone who didn't start watching basketball 2 years ago

[Wavves]

Duncan. Lebron will surpass him in a few years.

[Trollsmasher]

Still Timmy

[memetherapy]

Why are threads like this even made?

It's easily Duncan to anyone who didn't start watching basketball 2 years ago


Anyone who's seen both their careers knows Lebron has already surpassed him. They're both top-7-8 players all-time, but only Lebron is in the convo for GOAT. Stop being an old condescending hipster shmuck.

[livingby3's]

At this point, this is a huge disrespect to the greatest PF (if you consider him a PF) to ever played

[All Net]

Duncan for now...

[russwest0]

Anyone who's seen both their careers knows Lebron has already surpassed him. They're both top-7-8 players all-time, but only Lebron is in the convo for GOAT. Stop being an old condescending hipster shmuck.

:wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

In the convo for GOAT? LeBron better than Jordan and Kareem?

Did I read that right?

[JellyBean]

Duncan at the moment....but Lebron is gaining ground.....quick!

[miles berg]

Duncan for sure, I have LeBron ranked 11th all time but obviously he has a shot at getting ahead of Duncan and into the top 7 all time before he retires.

[memetherapy]

:wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

In the convo for GOAT? LeBron better than Jordan and Kareem?

Did I read that right?

You clearly didn't read right. "In the conversation" does not equal "better than". No disrespect to Duncan, because if he's considered a PF, he's at the top of my all time list. Who's in the top 5 anyways? MJ, Kareem, Russell, Bird, Magic? Personally, I'd take Lebron over Magic. Not sure about the others, though I doubt I'd take anyone over Jordan.

Stop with the blasphemy bullshit guys. Comparing all-time greats from different eras is as subjective as it gets.

[russwest0]

You clearly didn't read right. "In the conversation" does not equal "better than". No disrespect to Duncan, because if he's considered a PF, he's at the top of my all time list. Who's in the top 5 anyways? MJ, Kareem, Russell, Bird, Magic? Personally, I'd take Lebron over Magic. Not sure about the others, though I doubt I'd take anyone over Jordan.

Stop with the blasphemy bullshit guys. Comparing all-time greats from different eras is as subjective as it gets.

"in the convo" implies that there is even an argument to be had that he could be better, and there simply isn't an argument to be had.

SMH at yall niqqas

[Chrono90]

the quality of topics is not the same here...

Too many kids??

[Harison]

Why are threads like this even made?

It's easily Duncan to anyone who didn't start watching basketball 2 years ago

+1

[OldSkoolball#52]

People make Duncan vs Kobe threads all the time


Lebron >> Kobe


So whats the problem??


Lebrons one of the best players ever. This is a message board. Theres no reason not to make reasonable comparison threads, including this one.



Id take Duncan, slightly.

[russwest0]

People make Duncan vs Kobe threads all the time


Lebron >> Kobe


So whats the problem??


Lebrons one of the best players ever. This is a message board. Theres no reason not to make reasonable comparison threads, including this one.



Id take Duncan, slightly.

:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

[OldSkoolball#52]

If u rank players by effectiveness on the court and not by the teammates and organization theyve played for, its not even remotely close. Lebron has been better for the last 5-6 years than Kobe ever was ever.


Its official.

[NumberSix]

People act like LeBron isn't a 4x MVP & 2x FMVP guy who has great career stats over 10 seasons who isn't even 29 yet.

Why do we still act like LeBron is still a new guy who hasn't done anything yet? Dude is in his 11th season. It's ok to say he's great now. It's not premature. Dude is a certified legend.

If you think Timmy is better, fine, but let's stop acting like LeBron is still some rookie who hasn't proved himself yet.

Why do we always have to wait til a guy is over the hill to give him his credit?

[russwest0]

LeBron = regular season warrior

5>2 you f*cking clown

[red1]

Timmy for now

[red1]

LeBron = regular season warrior

5>2 you f*cking clown
:facepalm

[coin24]

This place is overrun with retards now..:facepalm
Lebron over Duncan??? :lol

You're comparing the leagues greatest ever PF with a guy who doesn't have a single post move, poor ball handling and weak mental midget.
Just because he won 2 rings with a sickeningly stacked team doesn't make him goat.

[NumberSix]

This place is overrun with retards now..:facepalm
Lebron over Duncan??? :lol

You're comparing the leagues greatest ever PF with a guy who doesn't have a single post move, poor ball handling and weak mental midget.
Just because he won 2 rings with a sickeningly stacked team doesn't make him goat.
Duncan won 4 rings.

[coin24]

Duncan won 4 rings.

This guy:lol

Still an unfunny f@ggot as always

[LAZERUSS]

People act like LeBron isn't a 4x MVP & 2x FMVP guy who has great career stats over 10 seasons who isn't even 29 yet.

Why do we still act like LeBron is still a new guy who hasn't done anything yet? Dude is in his 11th season. It's ok to say he's great now. It's not premature. Dude is a certified legend.

If you think Timmy is better, fine, but let's stop acting like LeBron is still some rookie who hasn't proved himself yet.

Why do we always have to wait til a guy is over the hill to give him his credit?

This.

I think Lebron, at the very least, is NOW a Top-12 player, and perhaps has a case for Top-10.

[Lebron23]

Duncan right now.

But if Lebron wins another finals MVP and Regular Season MVP. I am going to put him over Tim Duncan.

5 MVP, and 3 Finals MVP >> 2 MVP, and 3 Finals MVP.

[Dbrog]

People make Duncan vs Kobe threads all the time


Lebron >> Kobe


So whats the problem??


Lebrons one of the best players ever. This is a message board. Theres no reason not to make reasonable comparison threads, including this one.



Id take Duncan, slightly.

It's different though. Duncan has accomplished much more than Lebron (so far) and carried Cav-esc rosters to chips. If they both retired today, Duncan has literally done everything better than Lebron in terms of winning. For the record, I do think Lebron will rank higher than him eventually.

[aj1987]

Duncan.

Is this a serious question? OP is an idiot.

[bizil]

In my opinion here are CLEARLY the top 10 GOAT:

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Kobe
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Bird
10.Lebron

So I give the slight edge to Duncan as of now. U gotta give props for Timmy's longevity and those four rings. But Bron is like a runaway freight train headed for the top. I know many are gonna disagree with me putting Bird at #9. But u gotta keep in mind that Bird retired relatively early after ONLY 13 years, 11 of which were healthy. Magic on the other hand stockpiled five titles in his relatively short span giving him the edge to be rated in the top five. Bron is gonna pass Bird FOR SURE GOAT WISE at SF, which will begin his assault on Duncan next. So for now, Timmy is higher all time. But Bron and MJ could be on collision course at the top years from now. Bron is ONLY 28 and already in the top 10 GOAT!

[sportjames23]

In my opinion here are CLEARLY the top 10 GOAT:

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Kobe
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Bird
10.Lebron

So I give the slight edge to Duncan as of now. U gotta give props for Timmy's longevity and those four rings. But Bron is like a runaway freight train headed for the top. I know many are gonna disagree with me putting Bird at #9. But u gotta keep in mind that Bird retired relatively early after ONLY 13 years, 11 of which were healthy. Magic on the other hand stockpiled five titles in his relatively short span giving him the edge to be rated in the top five. Bron is gonna pass Bird FOR SURE GOAT WISE at SF, which will begin his assault on Duncan next. So for now, Timmy is higher all time. But Bron and MJ could be on collision course at the top years from now. Bron is ONLY 28 and already in the top 10 GOAT!

Kobe over Shaq, Bird and Duncan, huh? :biggums:

[Nash]

Depends on what you're going after. It's the same thing with Kobe here as well. Lebron is better than both, hell, Lebron is one of the best players to have ever played the game(after #1 Jordan). It's just that Duncan's 4 rings and Kobe's 5 rings are the only thing that is keeping them ahead in some peoples eyes. Because individually, Lebron is better.

[DaSeba5]

Right now Duncan, but I think LeBron will be ahead of him by the time he retires. It's all subjective though.

[jzek]

right now, duncan. once lebron retires, he'll move ahead.

[HarryCallahan]

Duncan.... Easily. LeBron should overtake him, but we'll have to see what happens when he loses his dominant athleticism and has to rely more on jump-shots and "post-game" the latter he doesn't really have, espn just likes to say that when he backs down much smaller/lighter players.

[LAZERUSS]

I'm not claiming that Lebron has had a greater career than Duncan, but it is becoming close. 4 MVPs and 2 FMVPs, as well as some of the greatest regular seasons and post-seasons in NBA history. I think Lebron has a case over players like Hakeem and Bird.

[Pointguard]

Duncan is a great winner to me. In that elite category, he Magic and Russell really stand out. Duncan only had one really good team to me. So he's still ahead of Lebron.

Ironically, last year if Duncan has the talent Lebron had, or even just a fully healthy team, he wins hands down and this is Lebron's peak. Instead Lebron gets one more ring and FMVP instead of Duncan. Duncan is really special and unique. All of you guys that have a super high premium on winning Duncan has to be off the charts. But still, even with that said, Lebron does indeed have a shot at GOAT for me while Duncan likely doesn't.

[Fudge]

Srs?srs?Notsureifsrs

7. Duncan
8. Shaq
9. Kobe
10. LeBron

Worry about LeBron overtaking Shaq and Kobe first brahs.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Jordan
Russell
Kareem
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
LeBron

If we're talking career accomplishments (peak wise, LeBron is already top 5-7 imo), this season LeBron could cement himself as a LEGIT top 5 player.

[russwest0]

Offense: Duncan > LeBron
Defense: Duncan >>>>>>>>>>>> LeBron
Rebounding: Duncan >>>>>>>>>> LeBron

[bizil]

Kobe over Shaq, Bird and Duncan, huh? :biggums:

When it comes to Kobe, Shaq, Bird, and Duncan, you could rate anyone of them in that 6-10 range and I wouldn't complain. But when u consider Kobe's five rings, longevity being great, scoring numbers, etc., I think he has a great case to be rated as high as number 6 on the GOAT list. Shaq, Bird, and Duncan weren't as dominant for as long as the Mamba. But as I stated, it's not out of the realm of possibility that Kobe is as high as 6 GOAT wise. And Kobe I feel will even likely surpass Magic as well and be #5.

[BoutPractice]

The consensus:

Right now: Duncan
When it's all said and done: probably LeBron due to the individual records he'll end up with, and the fact that it's likely that he wins at least one more title before the end of his career

[OldSkoolball#52]

It's different though. Duncan has accomplished much more than Lebron (so far) and carried Cav-esc rosters to chips. If they both retired today, Duncan has literally done everything better than Lebron in terms of winning. For the record, I do think Lebron will rank higher than him eventually.


So when you rank players, you go strictly based on resumes, which include team achievements, and often silly awards voted for by ignorant media members?

You don't compare each guy's game and the different things he brings on the court and his overall effectiveness?

[rodman91]

If Duncan took his talents to join Shaq & Kobe, he would be GOAT probably.

Lebron had his legacy in a cheap way. Who would join his main rival to win... Still disgusting.

[GoSpursGo1984]

If Duncan took his talents to join Shaq & Kobe, he would be GOAT probably.

Lebron had his legacy in a cheap way. Who would join his main rival to win... Still disgusting.

Duncan has done more with less. Lebron had to join two superstars to win.

[BigTicket]

I think Duncan still has the lead, but it's not very large, and Lebron has a lot of years left to catch up.

[joeyjoejoe]

When it comes to Kobe, Shaq, Bird, and Duncan, you could rate anyone of them in that 6-10 range and I wouldn't complain. But when u consider Kobe's five rings, longevity being great, scoring numbers, etc., I think he has a great case to be rated as high as number 6 on the GOAT list. Shaq, Bird, and Duncan weren't as dominant for as long as the Mamba. But as I stated, it's not out of the realm of possibility that Kobe is as high as 6 GOAT wise. And Kobe I feel will even likely surpass Magic as well and be #5.

Na longevity is something to be considered but only one of many otherwise Malone would be higher then Duncan, I believe Duncan's peak was superior to kobes by a pretty good margin and I don't think its even arguable

[Meticode]

"Anything is possible!" - Kevin Garnett

This quote is referencing the retarded-ness of this thread being started.

[Nash]

Lebron is the more dominant player. Duncan has him on achievements, team wise.

[bizil]

Na longevity is something to be considered but only one of many otherwise Malone would be higher then Duncan, I believe Duncan's peak was superior to kobes by a pretty good margin and I don't think its even arguable

A GOAT list factors numbers, team accolades, solo accolades, and longevity. So in that sense NO WAY Malone ranks over Duncan GOAT wise. Duncan has a better resume than Mailman. In terms of Duncan's peak being superior to Kobe, I wouldn't say its by a pretty good margin. Duncan, Kobe, and Shaq were the top three players in their era. Unlike the MJ era where MJ was CLEARLY the greatest player of their era, u could make a case for Duncan, Kobe, or Shaq as the greatest. But it can be hard to compare guards to bigs at times when it comes to what they bring to the table. I can buy Duncan being rated higher than Kobe, but it's not as clear cut as u make it to be.

[TheBigVeto]

Duncan.

/thread

[Fresh Kid]

I dont like both, but everybody knew lebron phucked up his legacy 3 years ago by signing with tha cheat:facepalm , so there goes my answer:confusedshrug:

[joeyjoejoe]

2 bizil did you really just say kobes peak maybe superior to shaqs that's friggin ridiculous

[bizil]

2 bizil did you really just say kobes peak maybe superior to shaqs that's friggin ridiculous

Peak and prime are two different things acutally in a way. Shaq's peak in my book is in the top 5-6 of all time. But Kobe's prime was longer than Shaq's prime. I think Kobe's peak was sick as well of course. But peak Shaq is the most physically dominant player of all time. Kobe's TOTAL PRIME STANDS UP TO SHAQ'S flat out. And Kobe's peak doesnt have to take huge backseat either. Even though I would take peak Shaq over Kobe. Peak and prime are two different things. Keep that in mind. And I believe truly dominant big guys vs. truly dominant 6-6 to 6-10 perimeter players can often come down to taste or what a team needs. Peak Shaq could alter a defense like nobody else in history. But that DOESN'T mean Shaq rates over Kobe historically because of that. Kobe is right there with MJ and Bron when it come to perimeter guys who are THE TOTAL PACKAGE on both sides of the ball. So that in itself is epic dominance that's rare as well.

For example, I think T-Mac's peak ability is the third greatest of all time at SG. Just behind MJ and Kobe. However, MJ and Kobe's PRIME was a lot longer and dominant than T-Mac's due to health. That's the point when I compare Kobe to Duncan and Shaq. Historically they are all in the same neighborhood. But Kobe has the accolades AND longevity to justify him being rated over those two historically. Just like those two have an argument being rated over Kobe historically as well. When it comes to the icons it's like splitting hairs sometimes.

[bizil]

Na longevity is something to be considered but only one of many otherwise Malone would be higher then Duncan, I believe Duncan's peak was superior to kobes by a pretty good margin and I don't think its even arguable

I'm no fool! When did I EVER say longevity was the be all end all. But when Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan have similar accolades and greatness, longevity being great can indeed be a determining factor at times when ranking them.

[joeyjoejoe]

I know peak and prime differ but its not like shaq had a one off great year tmac style although his 99-00 stands out a bit and I get the whole comparing guards to bigs is difficult but mjs peak is not in the same league as kobes its a tier above and I'm sure most would agree, as for accolades kobes prime was longer then shaqs so he does have more allstar, qllnba, alldef but not more of the big guns, same amount of mvp one more ring one less finals mvp

[NumberSix]

Peak and prime are two different things acutally in a way. Shaq's peak in my book is in the top 5-6 of all time. But Kobe's prime was longer than Shaq's prime. I think Kobe's peak was sick as well of course. But peak Shaq is the most physically dominant player of all time. Kobe's TOTAL PRIME STANDS UP TO SHAQ'S flat out. And Kobe's peak doesnt have to take huge backseat either. Even though I would take peak Shaq over Kobe. Peak and prime are two different things. Keep that in mind. And I believe truly dominant big guys vs. truly dominant 6-6 to 6-10 perimeter players can often come down to taste or what a team needs. Peak Shaq could alter a defense like nobody else in history. But that DOESN'T mean Shaq rates over Kobe historically because of that. Kobe is right there with MJ and Bron when it come to perimeter guys who are THE TOTAL PACKAGE on both sides of the ball. So that in itself is epic dominance that's rare as well.

For example, I think T-Mac's peak ability is the third greatest of all time at SG. Just behind MJ and Kobe. However, MJ and Kobe's PRIME was a lot longer and dominant than T-Mac's due to health. That's the point when I compare Kobe to Duncan and Shaq. Historically they are all in the same neighborhood. But Kobe has the accolades AND longevity to justify him being rated over those two historically. Just like those two have an argument being rated over Kobe historically as well. When it comes to the icons it's like splitting hairs sometimes.
Wrong. As much as people keep saying this, it will never be true. Shaq was a top player for at least 13 seasons.

[Pra]

Duncan right now.

When it's all said and done Lebron will rank higher all time. Especially if he plays as long as Timmy does and continues on winning championships.

[memetherapy]

Enough with listing team accomplishments to prop up players. Guys who lead their teams to accomplish things should be rewarded based on their impact on the game...

Forget the points, the rings, the MVPs, etc... imagine you're a GM and you have a choice amongst all these players knowing that they'll be locked in with your franchise til they retire. Who do you take?

Let's say, amongst Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Lebron... who would you pick?

I'd go Lebron, Duncan, Shaq and then Kobe. (I'm avoiding players before 97-98 because that's when I started really watching NBA ball obsessively and I know my rankings are objectively defendable)

Shouldn't that actually be how one forms his player rankings? I'm not saying this ranking can't be argued against....but who the hell would draft Kobe over Lebron? I expect that all those people putting Kobe ahead of Lebron all-time because of his rings and scoring records would question themselves at least when considering who they would draft first.

[NumberSix]

Enough with listing team accomplishments to prop up players. Guys who lead their teams to accomplish things should be rewarded based on their impact on the game...

Forget the points, the rings, the MVPs, etc... imagine you're a GM and you have a choice amongst all these players knowing that they'll be locked in with your franchise til they retire. Who do you take?

Let's say, amongst Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Lebron... who would you pick?

I'd go Lebron, Duncan, Shaq and then Kobe. (I'm avoiding players before 97-98 because that's when I started really watching NBA ball obsessively and I know my rankings are objectively defendable)

Shouldn't that actually be how one forms his player rankings? I'm not saying this ranking can't be argued against....but who the hell would draft Kobe over Lebron? I expect that all those people putting Kobe ahead of Lebron all-time because of his rings and scoring records would question themselves at least when considering who they would draft first.
I'd probably go Shaq, LeBron, Duncan, Kobe.

[joeyjoejoe]

I'd take shaq then tossup between Duncan and lebron then kobe

[memetherapy]

I'd take Shaq too if it weren't for his lack of longevity compared to Timmy and almost certainly Lebron.

[LAZERUSS]

I'd take Shaq too if it weren't for his lack of longevity compared to Timmy and almost certainly Lebron.

Shaq played in the league for 19 seasons, and was a top-5 player in at least ten of them, and arguably the best player in the league in five.

Lebron has played 11 seasons.

[Mr. Jabbar]

it depends on how well ray allen keeps shooting the 3

[Sharmer]

At this stage Tim but I think Lebron will eventually pass him. Tim could have made it harder if the Spurs didn't lose this year.

[memetherapy]

Shaq played in the league for 19 seasons, and was a top-5 player in at least ten of them, and arguably the best player in the league in five.

Lebron has played 11 seasons.

And are you not expecting Lebron to be a top 5 player for another 4-5 years? That's why I said ALMOST CERTAINLY.

[bizil]

Wrong. As much as people keep saying this, it will never be true. Shaq was a top player for at least 13 seasons.

So are you meaning to tell me Shaq was as great in his 13th year as Kobe was in his. I reckon it's damn close I agree with u there. Shaq could have won the MVP that year . But Kobe has been a top player for 14 or 15 years now. And knowing The Mamba,he will come back and assume the mantle as the best SG in the L! And Kobe's 14 against Shaq's 13 was more healthier as well. And Kobe's game didn't decline as fast as Shaq's did. I understand what u are saying. But Kobe after his 17th season in the L was STILL the best SG in the world. And a top 3 player in the L. And most likely STILL the best closer in the game. Also keep in mind Kobe came out of high school as well. So he has 3-4 four more seasons in the L than most guys his age! Most guys 35 are in their 12th or 13th year. Shaq was still damn good even as late as Phoenix, but I STILL MAINTAIN Kobe was better for longer than Shaq! That's pretty OBVIOUS when u line their careers up!

[bizil]

I can see why people would take Shaq, Duncan, and Lebron over Kobe in a draft. Hell all three are arguably the best players all time peak wise at their respective positions. And on top of it, having a dominant big man on the block does so much for a team as well. And a guy like Bron can play and defend four positions in an epic fashion. So it comes down to size and versatility against Kobe. But guys like Kobe and MJ are as versatile, dominant, and skilled as you can be for a 6'6 perimeter player. Those two can play and defend PG, SG, and SF.

But on a GOAT list, it's your resume and what u accomplish. This HAS to factor into the equation. U can have all the ability in the world, but if u can't harness it properly it doesn't matter. So in that sense, Kobe's resume does the talking for his greatness. Who u would take first in a draft peak value wise is totally different. U also have to factor things like takeover ability and clutch shit as well.

[joeyjoejoe]

I don't believe kobes clutch or anywhere near one of the best closers around he tends to be very predictable and take low percentage shots in those situations and his clutch stats seem to back that
edit though I know he has good takeover ability as you call it just think his clutch Rep is unwarranted

[rmt]

So are you meaning to tell me Shaq was as great in his 13th year as Kobe was in his. I reckon it's damn close I agree with u there. Shaq could have won the MVP that year . But Kobe has been a top player for 14 or 15 years now. And knowing The Mamba,he will come back and assume the mantle as the best SG in the L! And Kobe's 14 against Shaq's 13 was more healthier as well. And Kobe's game didn't decline as fast as Shaq's did. I understand what u are saying. But Kobe after his 17th season in the L was STILL the best SG in the world. And a top 3 player in the L. And most likely STILL the best closer in the game. Also keep in mind Kobe came out of high school as well. So he has 3-4 four more seasons in the L than most guys his age! Most guys 35 are in their 12th or 13th year. Shaq was still damn good even as late as Phoenix, but I STILL MAINTAIN Kobe was better for longer than Shaq! That's pretty OBVIOUS when u line their careers up!

Shouldn't the fact that Shaq was great from his rookie season and Kobe was not bump down the years. This comparing of 13th, 14th and 15th seasons totally discounts the time Kobe sat on the bench/was not a top player. Look at their careers in entirety. Shaq has longevity too.

Starting a franchise from scratch, I'd go with:

1. Duncan - excellent on both sides of the floor, no problems - does whatever it takes to win, great team mate

2. Shaq - great peak, longevity but drama/ego/laziness in work ethic/defense

3. Lebron - great peak, great on both sides of the floor, longevity yet to be determined

4. Kobe - longevity, not so great start/defense in late career, less than desirable team mate

[bizil]

Shouldn't the fact that Shaq was great from his rookie season and Kobe was not bump down the years. This comparing of 13th, 14th and 15th seasons totally discounts the time Kobe sat on the bench/was not a top player. Look at their careers in entirety. Shaq has longevity too.

Starting a franchise from scratch, I'd go with:

1. Duncan - excellent on both sides of the floor, no problems - does whatever it takes to win, great team mate

2. Shaq - great peak, longevity but drama/ego/laziness in work ethic/defense

3. Lebron - great peak, great on both sides of the floor, longevity yet to be determined

4. Kobe - longevity, not so great start/defense in late career, less than desirable team mate

Once again not dissing Shaq's greatness or longevity. But I feel Kobe just recently has won the longevity battle. When did I EVER say Shaq's longevity sucked. Or that he wasn't a dominant player for a long ass time. But bottom line is Kobe was a more dominant player in his 17th season than Shaq was in his. I would say from ages 20-32 (the start of Shaq's rookie year all the way to 32) he was the MDE. Kobe has been a dominant perimeter player from ages 21-34. So once again I'm not saying Kobe smokes Shaq in longevity being great. But I maintain that recently Kobe has been more dominant longer.

And sure Kobe wasn't dominant right out of the gate as a rookie. But in Kobe's second season, he was putting up 15.4 points in 26 minutes a night. It's not like Kobe was riding the bench at that point. Wear and tear is wear and tear. And he was already being heralded as the future dominant perimeter player in the L in his second year. I frankly think the Lakers held Kobe back TOO MUCH in his rookie and 2nd year. So u point out good arguments. But in the last year or two, Kobe has passed Shaq by on the longevity of dominance argument. Plus Shaq was more outta shape and hobbled throughout his run more than Kobe too. And the bottom line is Kobe went a hard 17 years. And if u throw out his rookie year (which u seem to do in a way), he went 16. Shaq simply wasn't as dominant in his 16th year as Kobe was in his. And keep in mind Kobe has ALREADY played in more career games as Shaq as well.

[SamuraiSWISH]

LeBron is higher than Duncan. Come on. 3 straight Finals, back to back rings w/ FMVPs. Duncan never achieved that in his career. Then you add on the 4 MVPs and he's still only 28 years old, gunning for a three peat and more ... and this discussion becomes even more absurd. I'll also mention the 2 gold medals LeBron led Team USA to and I'll try to forget prime Duncan's horrendous performance in 2004, leading us to the bronze. Mr. Fundamental.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Shouldn't the fact that Shaq was great from his rookie season and Kobe was not bump down the years. This comparing of 13th, 14th and 15th seasons totally discounts the time Kobe sat on the bench/was not a top player. Look at their careers in entirety. Shaq has longevity too.

Starting a franchise from scratch, I'd go with:

1. Duncan - excellent on both sides of the floor, no problems - does whatever it takes to win, great team mate

2. Shaq - great peak, longevity but drama/ego/laziness in work ethic/defense

3. Lebron - great peak, great on both sides of the floor, longevity yet to be determined

4. Kobe - longevity, not so great start/defense in late career, less than desirable team mate

Ok but when you factor in Shaqs 5+ years as a journeyman role player it evens out/tilts the longevity arguement in Kobes favor.

Also it's hard to take you seriously when you make outlandish statements like Kobe being a "less than desirable teammate" I mean really the guy with 5 rings is a undesirable teammate? The guy has won multiple titles with multiple rosters and Shaq was quoted as saying "he's the one guy you wanna play with"

And not so great start? Damn bruh now you're just hating.. 2 years into his career he was the 2nd best player on a championship team..

At 21 he averaged 30 7 6 on the way to the finals while leading the league in playoff win shares while being tied as the leading scorer for his team in the regualr season and leading the team in assist

So much for not a great start.

[NumberSix]

So are you meaning to tell me Shaq was as great in his 13th year as Kobe was in his. I reckon it's damn close I agree with u there. Shaq could have won the MVP that year . But Kobe has been a top player for 14 or 15 years now. And knowing The Mamba,he will come back and assume the mantle as the best SG in the L! And Kobe's 14 against Shaq's 13 was more healthier as well. And Kobe's game didn't decline as fast as Shaq's did. I understand what u are saying. But Kobe after his 17th season in the L was STILL the best SG in the world. And a top 3 player in the L. And most likely STILL the best closer in the game. Also keep in mind Kobe came out of high school as well. So he has 3-4 four more seasons in the L than most guys his age! Most guys 35 are in their 12th or 13th year. Shaq was still damn good even as late as Phoenix, but I STILL MAINTAIN Kobe was better for longer than Shaq! That's pretty OBVIOUS when u line their careers up!

By absolutely no measure was Kobe the best SG or a top 3 player last season.

Not 1 single sane person on earth would take 2000-2013 Kobe over 1992-2005 Shaq. They're not close at all. Shaq is easily better by a very wide margin.

Kobe has been past his prime for at least 3 seasons. Only kobe'tards pretend this isn't true.

[rmt]

LeBron is higher than Duncan. Come on. 3 straight Finals, back to back rings w/ FMVPs. Duncan never achieved that in his career. Then you add on the 4 MVPs and he's still only 28 years old, gunning for a three peat and more ... and this discussion becomes even more absurd. I'll also mention the 2 gold medals LeBron led Team USA to and I'll try to forget prime Duncan's horrendous performance in 2004, leading us to the bronze. Mr. Fundamental.

Duncan's only been to 5 Finals, won 4 rings as the man. And keep in mind, how close (28 seconds) it could have been for Duncan to have 5 rings with 4 FMVPs and Lebron with only 1 ring/1 FMVP. Lebron should thank his lucky stars for Ray Allen - no one else would have made that shot.

Lest you forget, Lebron (along with a bunch of sophomore "star" players) was also on that 2004 team. Whoever put that team together did so for marketing purposes and with no consideration for team position/chemistry. One shooter like Ray Allen would have made a world of difference as Lebron, Melo, etc. couldn't make a jump shot if their life depended on it but sure go ahead and put all the blame on Duncan's shoulders.



Ok but when you factor in Shaqs 5+ years as a journeyman role player it evens out/tilts the longevity arguement in Kobes favor.

Also it's hard to take you seriously when you make outlandish statements like Kobe being a "less than desirable teammate" I mean really the guy with 5 rings is a undesirable teammate? The guy has won multiple titles with multiple rosters and Shaq was quoted as saying "he's the one guy you wanna play with"

And not so great start? Damn bruh now you're just hating.. 2 years into his career he was the 2nd best player on a championship team..

At 21 he averaged 30 7 6 on the way to the finals while leading the league in playoff win shares while being tied as the leading scorer for his team in the regualr season and leading the team in assist

So much for not a great start.

You must have forgotten his troubles with Shaq (forcing him out town, SNITCHING), ship his ass out of there Bynum, and Howard's reluctance to play with him.

You don't call Kobe's a not so great start in comparison to the starts of Shaq, Duncan and Lebron? First 2 years:

Kobe
8/2/1 42% FG
15/3/3 43%

Lebron
21/6/6 42%
27/77 42%

Shaq
23/15 56%
29/13 60%

Duncan
21/12 55%
22/11 50%

[bizil]

By absolutely no measure was Kobe the best SG or a top 3 player last season.

Not 1 single sane person on earth would take 2000-2013 Kobe over 1992-2005 Shaq. They're not close at all. Shaq is easily better by a very wide margin.

Kobe has been past his prime for at least 3 seasons. Only kobe'tards pretend this isn't true.

For one Kobe was FIRST TEAM ALL NBA LAST YEAR!!! A stat line of 27.6 points, 6 dimes, and 5.6 boards. With that HELL YA MAMBA is was still the best SG! And he had a great case for top three player in the world behind Bron and Durant. And Kobe is STILL a more complete player than Durant. Durant is just an offensive juggernaut whose all around game is still growing. But Bron and Kobe are the TRUE TOTAL PACKAGE on both sides of the ball.

Peak and prime are two different things. Kobe is past his peak but still in his backend prime years. If u TRULY KNOW BBALL u know that's the stage that's Kobe is in. So get your shit straight AND REALIZE peak and prime are different in a way.

[NumberSix]

For one Kobe was FIRST TEAM ALL NBA LAST YEAR!!! A stat line of 27.6 points, 6 dimes, and 5.6 boards. With that HELL YA MAMBA is was still the best SG! And he had a great case for top three player in the world behind Bron and Durant. And Kobe is STILL a more complete player than Durant. Durant is just an offensive juggernaut whose all around game is still growing. But Bron and Kobe are the TRUE TOTAL PACKAGE on both sides of the ball.

Peak and prime are two different things. Kobe is past his peak but still in his backend prime years. If u TRULY KNOW BBALL u know that's the stage that's Kobe is in. So get your shit straight AND REALIZE peak and prime are different in a way.
Kobe is garbage on defense. He was one of the single worst players on D last year. His defense has been shit for a few years. Durant is miles better than Kobe on defense.

I'm beginning to think you're around 13 years old.

[bizil]

Kobe is garbage on defense. He was one of the single worst players on D last year. His defense has been shit for a few years. Durant is miles better than Kobe on defense.

I'm beginning to think you're around 13 years old.

Your a flat out troll and bum bro. I back up my statements with facts while u just talk out ya ass. U ain't even worth debating! LMABO

[bizil]

Kobe is garbage on defense. He was one of the single worst players on D last year. His defense has been shit for a few years. Durant is miles better than Kobe on defense.

I'm beginning to think you're around 13 years old.

I see why your reputation points aint shit on here. My rep points are CRUSHING YOUR SHIT!!

[TheMarkMadsen]

Close doesn't count as a ring, dude.


Every champion gets a little luck some years. No different with Duncan. Ewing being injured in 1999, lock out year ... terrible basketball played that season.


Lest you remember correctly ... Wade, LeBron, and Melo were young rookies. In LeBron's case, he was only 19 years old. Fresh out of HS, coming off a 20/5/5 season.

Ontop of that if you actually watched, you'd know they BARELY played thanks to Larry Brown's vendetta against young players. Do your homework. Tim Duncan was terrible in the 2004 Olympics, but he was in his absolute peak / prime. The best player on the team was Allen Iverson.

Why does Duncan shoulder no blame? He's the "goat PF", and a top ten player all time at his peak. How did he play so poorly? I don't picture any of these other top ten players letting Team USA play that bad.

MJ
Bird
LeBron
Magic
Shaq
Wilt
Hakeem
Russell
Kobe

Kobe and LeBron both in their prime were dominant leading Team USA. Hell, 3rd year Durant did better with comparable talent in the FIBA tournament in 2010.

Why do people never hold Duncan's feet to the fire for anything?


Really? You're bringing up their Olympic play?

If that's the case 2004 is a knock on Lebron? Unable to win a gold medal without Kobe?

[Dave3]

Really? You're bringing up their Olympic play?

If that's the case 2004 is a knock on Lebron? Unable to win a gold medal without Kobe?
I always wondered when people tried to make this point if they're referencing something they have any idea about. LeBron and Melo didn't play on that team. They got like 5 minutes a game each or something. The big guys on that team were Duncan and Iverson, not to mention LeBron/Melo were both coming off of their rookie years. How are you expected to impact a game as a 19 year old playing 5 minutes?

It's not like he could fight for those minutes either, this wasn't a team with a regular season worth of practices and games. Larry Brown had a gameplan even before game 1 and that's what he used throughout the tournament.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Really? You're bringing up their Olympic play?

If that's the case 2004 is a knock on Lebron? Unable to win a gold medal without Kobe?
2004, as a 19 year old rookie who got slim amounts of minutes thanks to Larry Brown's disdain for rookies?

Unable to win without Kobe? LeBron and Wade were the best and most productive players on the 2008 team.

In 2012? Kobe was a footnote. LeBron literally carried Team USA in 2 games where they faced elimination. V.s. Lithuania and in the gold medal game v.s. Spain. In the exhibition he saved us from getting embarrassed by Brazil.

I mean he dominated the whole game on his own, when everyone's jumper wasn't falling. He replicated Kobe's clutch 3 minutes v.s. Spain in 2008 for whole games carrying us with his all around dominance.

:oldlol:

[NumberSix]

I always wondered when people tried to make this point if they're referencing something they have any idea about. LeBron and Melo didn't play on that team. They got like 5 minutes a game each or something. The big guys on that team were Duncan and Iverson, not to mention LeBron/Melo were both coming off of their rookie years. How are you expected to impact a game as a 19 year old playing 5 minutes?

It's not like he could fight for those minutes either, this wasn't a team with a regular season worth of practices and games. Larry Brown had a gameplan even before game 1 and that's what he used throughout the tournament.
Exactly. At that age, Kobe was still a random nba bench player.

[East_Stone_Ya]

Duncan now

[Flash31]

Duncan is higher right now

When LeBrons career is over,he might be higher,but right now Duncan.

LeBron is great but right now hes behind Shaq,Kobe,Duncan.
Has to win more and play another 5 years to get his stats up to par with them.

Duncan
4 Rings
3 Finals MVPS
23,000+ pts and counting,
13,000+rbs and counting
3600+ast and counting
2600 blocks and counting
800 steals and counting
13 time all star
multiple all-d teams,and nba selections

career avg of
20,11,3 with 2 blocks and 1 steal on 51%

compared to LeBron
2 Rings
2 Finals MVPS
21,000+pts and counting
5,500+rbs and counting
5,300+ast and counting
600+blocks and counting
1,300 +steals and counting
9 time all star

career avg of
28,7,7 with 1 block and 2 steal on 48%