The Center Position: Is it weak?

[boozehound]

This is based on a comment by RMWG in the asik for green thread where he said it might be nice to have one of the few legit centers in asik.

So, my question becomes, are there really only a "few" legit centers in the league currently?

As I go through the league, I see lots of good or promising centers in the league right now. What do you think?

Atlantic
Lopez
Chandler
Jonas Christ
Noel (long term)

Central
Noah
Bynum/Vag
Drummond/Monroe
Hibbert
Sanders

Southeast
Horford
Big Al
Vucevic
Gortat

Southwest
M Gasol
Howard
Davis
Duncan

Northwest
McGee (sure, hes a knucklehead)
Pekovic
Kanter

Pacific
Bogut
Pau
Cousins

So, at least three teams in every division have a solid to very good center IMO. Am I wrong in this view?

and this isnt including dudes like r lopez or meyers leonard

[alenleomessi]

you forgot deandre who will have a better season than half of those guys.
and most of these guys are like PFs anyway...

[D.J.]

It's not weak, it's just obsolete. With today's game favoring perimeter players and outside play, points are really combo guards and centers are more like oversized 4s. The days of centers like Laimbeer and Parish are over.

[Rose'sACL]

There are centers who are good defensively but offensively they aren't that great

[JimmyMcAdocious]

It's a lot better than it was a few seasons ago. The center position is deep, but lackluster.

Now the SG position is talented at the top, and very much lacking depth. After Harden, can anyone confidently tell me of a young SG you are sure is an allstar player? I'm counting George as a SF, btw. Kobe and Wade are practically in retirement homes. After those 3 there's an enormous drop off in talent.

[sc19]

It is weak. Even in NBA 2k, it's a crap position to play.

[DuMa]

half of the list in OP are really power forwards who play center almost full time. the center position is so weak that power forwards can play the 5 hole can fool people like the OP into thinking that there are decent centers.

the 80s and 90s had real centers. it used to be really obvious what a center and a power forward is. and no a stretch 4 isnt a power forward

[Trollsmasher]

It is weak offensively. Defensively it just as great as ever, if not better.

[ispin69]

Weak compared to the dominance of Shaq and Wilt? Yes.

Hibbert (w/ West is very dangerous), Howard, Chandler, Lopez, Marc Gasol. All legit right now even if some are on not good teams. They are game changers. I agree with Jimmy that SG is weak right now.

[OldSkoolball#52]

This is based on a comment by RMWG in the asik for green thread where he said it might be nice to have one of the few legit centers in asik.

So, my question becomes, are there really only a "few" legit centers in the league currently?

As I go through the league, I see lots of good or promising centers in the league right now. What do you think?

Atlantic
Lopez
Chandler
Jonas Christ
Noel (long term)

Central
Noah
Bynum/Vag
Drummond/Monroe
Hibbert
Sanders

Southeast
Horford
Big Al
Vucevic
Gortat

Southwest
M Gasol
Howard
Davis
Duncan

Northwest
McGee (sure, hes a knucklehead)
Pekovic
Kanter

Pacific
Bogut
Pau
Cousins

So, at least three teams in every division have a solid to very good center IMO. Am I wrong in this view?

and this isnt including dudes like r lopez or meyers leonard



I made a thread nearly identical to this a few months back and concluded at least half the teams have a good quality center.


The issue is that centers are not asked, or even allowed to score like they used to because of the ball dominance of modern wing players. These days a center's primary responsibility is to be a defensive anchor - and by that standard there are some darn good ones.


Obviously, the majority of fans still believe "ppg = value". So they see a decline in ppg from the center position, they conclude centers today suck.


Incidentally, the two "best" centers in the game by talent are perhaps Oden and Bynum. And we all know their stories. Which is unfortunate, because they might have been able to quell the talk about no great centers, had things unfolded differently.

[Myth]

There are a bunch of good centers, but there are no great centers. It used to be that there were always 3-5 great centers at a time. Howard is the only 1 who comes close to that lable, but he is just missing something that prevents him from actually being great.

[Myth]

and this isnt including dudes like r lopez or meyers leonard

Well it shouldn't include them. Leonard just got bumped to 3rd string center by Joel Freeland. It is laughable that he was even mentioned as if "not including including him" meant something valuable. Might as well say "And this doesn't include Jason Collins."

[OldSkoolball#52]

Well it shouldn't include them. Leonard just got bumped to 3rd string center by Joel Freeland. It is laughable that he was even mentioned as if "not including including him" meant something valuable. Might as well say "And this doesn't include Jason Collins."


Ok bro now youre just purposely being a bigot.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

Also remember that along with Dwight, Yao, Bogut, and Oden were supposed to be headlining this era of centers. All three of those guys have had terribly injury-plagued careers. Now we can't be sure how Oden would have turned out, but Bogut was a legit anchor down low and Yao was a borderline superstar.

[boozehound]

I purposefully left him off. and, no, the only ones on there who are possible pf's are monroe and davis. You can claim that duncan is a pf but hes not, and horford hasn't lined up at the 4 more than ~20 games in his career (even if he would play better there).

[boozehound]

half of the list in OP are really power forwards who play center almost full time. the center position is so weak that power forwards can play the 5 hole can fool people like the OP into thinking that there are decent centers.

the 80s and 90s had real centers. it used to be really obvious what a center and a power forward is. and no a stretch 4 isnt a power forward
what in laimbeer's game (for example) isnt present in today's game?

[OldSkoolball#52]

Also remember that along with Dwight, Yao, Bogut, and Oden were supposed to be headlining this era of centers. All three of those guys have had terribly injury-plagued careers. Now we can't be sure how Oden would have turned out, but Bogut was a legit anchor down low and Yao was a borderline superstar.



As much as I like Yao the person, I feel like history overrates him.

I recall those Rockets teams generally achieved the same results when he was there for long stretches as when he was out for long stretches.

[boozehound]

Well it shouldn't include them. Leonard just got bumped to 3rd string center by Joel Freeland. It is laughable that he was even mentioned as if "not including including him" meant something valuable. Might as well say "And this doesn't include Jason Collins."
The point is that he was an example of a touted young player (just drafted) and lopez was an example of a journey man vet type.

[boozehound]

As much as I like Yao the person, I feel like history overrates him.

I recall those Rockets teams generally achieved the same results when he was there for long stretches as when he was out for long stretches.
yeah, he is massively overrated. He was so ****ing slwo that a poor defender like okur looked great against him.

[SHABBA]

Perkins is top 25 all-time for centers IMO.

[Myth]

The point is that he was an example of a touted young player (just drafted) and lopez was an example of a journey man vet type.

"Was" is the key word. He isn't anymore. His stock has fallen so much that he isn't worth being mentioned anymore.

[Myth]

Ok bro now youre just purposely being a bigot.

As your subtitle says: "No."

[Jameerthefear]

Perkins is top 25 all-time for centers IMO.
http://i.imgur.com/ONGPM0y.gif

[ProfessorMurder]

what in laimbeer's game (for example) isnt present in today's game?

Balls.

[boozehound]

Balls.
fair enough. He is one of my all time favorite players. But I also think the idea of prior toughness/greatness is partly the it was better back then effect, as well as changes in rules. If you played like laimbeer today, you would be suspended for the season ever year. Also, the idea of massive back to the basket players at the center overstates their role (and forgets that the best lowpost scorer of the 80s - arguably- is a pf, McHale). Anyways....

[La Frescobaldi]

Perkins is top 25 all-time for centers IMO.
Perkins isn't even Tom Boerwinkle level. Not even close. Boerwinkle would have gone 30 20 on Kendrick Perkins when he was a Celtic and Tom wasn't even a scoring center. Elmore Smith would have run rings around and over Perkins. Leroy Ellis would probably have JUMPED over Perkins. Brad Miller would take Perkins lunch money and make him cry, so would Tree Rollins. Perkins ain't gonna move Alton Lister. Seikaly would run him round like a big dog.

And we're not even talking about second tier guys like Jack Sikma.

No wait. All the guys in the OP list currently destroy Perkins on the regular.



Atlantic
Lopez
Chandler
Jonas Christ
Noel (long term)

Central
Noah
Bynum/Vag
Drummond/Monroe
Hibbert
Sanders

Southeast
Horford
Big Al
Vucevic
Gortat

Southwest
M Gasol
Howard
Davis
Duncan

Northwest
McGee (sure, hes a knucklehead)
Pekovic
Kanter

Pacific
Bogut
Pau
Cousins

[CavaliersFTW]

It's not weak, it's just obsolete. With today's game favoring perimeter players and outside play, points are really combo guards and centers are more like oversized 4s. The days of centers like Laimbeer and Parish are over.
Ridiculous post and assumption.

http://youtu.be/zukRbA3y0qo?t=17m45s

Listen to the pros touch on this subject. Armchair experts who leap to the conclusion that the center position is 'obsolete' (simply because there are currently no dominant centers) are doing nothing but blowing smoke out their ass. The position is not and will never be obsolete. The simple fact of the matter is dominant and truly gifted centers are rare and always have been. There are never more than a few in the league at a time, and some times a few years go by where we see none. The last crop that had potential are injury prone so right now we're in a particularly void era of bigs. Our current era does have plenty of servicable centers, just no dominant ones. If you think this era or any era would render a Kareem or Shaq or Wilt 'obsolete' than you fail to understand the game of basketball.

[ballup]

The definition of the center position, and all others, change from generation to generation. Different strategies are found and deployed, resulting in the need for different types of players. Using the word "legit" can be vague. Do you mean good players who are centers, centers whose qualities represent the prototypical nature, or both?

[NumberSix]

You forgot Oden.

[mugiwara]

Watching Golden State playoff series with a hobbling bogut, unable to make a quick decisive move in the post, void of any quickness at all made me realise what we all have missed out on with this guy.

I firmly believe if healthy he would easily be the most well rounded centre the league has seen in years. He has a remarkable offensive/defensive balance, a few years ago finishing the league second in blocked shots and second in charges taken. If not for the wrist injury i imagine he would have been able to pull it together from the line and wouldn't so heavily favour the left handed hook. We know he can score given the touches and is an excellent offensive rebounder. If he was healthy and surrounded with shooter as dwight was in orlando I'm sure he would flourish with his passing ability. Dwights Career high in assists is 1.9. Bogut managed 3.2 in just his second season in the league, that number never dipped below 2. I understand SVG system led to a kick out and swing to the corner but surely Boguts passing skills would at least lead him to average four a game if every possession was run through him.

I imagine if Oden had been healthy he would be the most dominant but i doubt as well rounded as a healthy Bogut. Which Centre would you have wished had Dwights amazing durability?

[La Frescobaldi]

Watching Golden State playoff series with a hobbling bogut, unable to make a quick decisive move in the post, void of any quickness at all made me realise what we all have missed out on with this guy.

I firmly believe if healthy he would easily be the most well rounded centre the league has seen in years. He has a remarkable offensive/defensive balance, a few years ago finishing the league second in blocked shots and second in charges taken. If not for the wrist injury i imagine he would have been able to pull it together from the line and wouldn't so heavily favour the left handed hook. We know he can score given the touches and is an excellent offensive rebounder. If he was healthy and surrounded with shooter as dwight was in orlando I'm sure he would flourish with his passing ability. Dwights Career high in assists is 1.9. Bogut managed 3.2 in just his second season in the league, that number never dipped below 2. I understand SVG system led to a kick out and swing to the corner but surely Boguts passing skills would at least lead him to average four a game if every possession was run through him.

I imagine if Oden had been healthy he would be the most dominant but i doubt as well rounded as a healthy Bogut. Which Centre would you have wished had Dwights amazing durability?

I really think Golden State is a perfect team for triangle offense.

They have every position correct for it, from running Lee/ Bogut in a high-low post, to the 2 man game, also the great corner swings..... Coach Jackson never ran it on his own teams as a player but he sure got nightmare doses of it in full from Phil Jackson's Pippen-Jordan Bulls & Kobe-Shaq Lakers.

[ProfessorMurder]

fair enough. He is one of my all time favorite players. But I also think the idea of prior toughness/greatness is partly the it was better back then effect, as well as changes in rules. If you played like laimbeer today, you would be suspended for the season ever year. Also, the idea of massive back to the basket players at the center overstates their role (and forgets that the best lowpost scorer of the 80s - arguably- is a pf, McHale). Anyways....

Yeah, I do agree with the premise of the thread though. I was thinking about it recently, most teams have a competitive center.

The problem is there are no great centers. Rules changes and poor big man coaching at all levels have gotten rid of real post play. Plus don't forget that while most teams have an okay center they are for the most part good at offense OR defense, not both.

Chandler = Defense
Cousins = Offense
Bynum = Offense
Hibbert = Defense
Lopez = Offense
Noah = Defense

The only arguable two way guy is Dwight but his offensive game is very weak. The next big guy who comes into the league and plays both sides of the floor well will be huge.

[ChuckOakley]

Yeah, I do agree with the premise of the thread though. I was thinking about it recently, most teams have a competitive center.

The problem is there are no great centers. Rules changes and poor big man coaching at all levels have gotten rid of real post play. Plus don't forget that while most teams have an okay center they are for the most part good at offense OR defense, not both.

Chandler = Defense
Cousins = Offense
Bynum = Offense
Hibbert = Defense
Lopez = Offense
Noah = Defense

The only arguable two way guy is Dwight but his offensive game is very weak. The next big guy who comes into the league and plays both sides of the floor well will be huge.
Dwight is hardly weak offensively.
He's a 20ppg scorer who manages to do it on 55-60% shooting.
And no, I don't care how he scores, it's still two points (often with a foul on the opponent) and he does it very efficiently.

[crunk-juice]

Hibbert is the most 'pure' center in the league. He also happens to be top 5 at his position.

[bdreason]

There are more good Centers than PF's.

[SixShooter]

its the best position in the league other than SF

It just looks bad when you compare it to the 90s.

[bdreason]

Ridiculous post and assumption.

http://youtu.be/zukRbA3y0qo?t=17m45s

Listen to the pros touch on this subject. Armchair experts who leap to the conclusion that the center position is 'obsolete' (simply because there are currently no dominant centers) are doing nothing but blowing smoke out their ass. The position is not and will never be obsolete. The simple fact of the matter is dominant and truly gifted centers are rare and always have been. There are never more than a few in the league at a time, and some times a few years go by where we see none. The last crop that had potential are injury prone so right now we're in a particularly void era of bigs. Our current era does have plenty of servicable centers, just no dominant ones. If you think this era or any era would render a Kareem or Shaq or Wilt 'obsolete' than you fail to understand the game of basketball.


The new rules make doubling the post easier than it's ever been. When Shaq was dominating teams could not double until he caught the ball, which made recovering from the double much more difficult. While a player like Shaq would still be dominant today, he would be much easier to contain, as teams could double him before he even caught the ball, and recover from the double that much quicker. I'm not even taking into consideration how much defensive flopping has increased. Shaq would be called for a lot more fouls performing his drop step with the current rule set.


It's not just that the talent of bigs has decreased, it's also that the rules have been changed to reduce scoring from the post. The NBA even created a rule that disallows posting up for more than 5 seconds. :oldlol:

[CavaliersFTW]

The new rules make doubling the post easier than it's ever been. When Shaq was dominating teams could not double until he caught the ball, which made recovering from the double much more difficult. While a player like Shaq would still be dominant today, he would be much easier to contain, as teams could double him before he even caught the ball, and recover from the double that much quicker. I'm not even taking into consideration how much defensive flopping has increased. Shaq would be called for a lot more fouls performing his drop step with the current rule set.


It's not just that the talent of bigs has decreased, it's also that the rules have been changed to reduce scoring from the post. The NBA even created a rule that disallows posting up for more than 5 seconds. :oldlol:
Shaq, Wilt, Kareem, etc are INSANELY talented, and yes much more talented than anyone playing today at that position. They would be NO LESS effective today than they were relative to their peers in their own day. People act like rule changes suddenly make players unable to cope like they are robots, rule changes do not make them less effective players, they only change the way they play the game and we're talking about incredibly minor changes that are near-as-makes NO difference to begin with. People like you who come up with excuses for the lack of dominant centers by looking to the rules of the game are being ridiculous. For every rule change that makes 1 area of the game more difficult there are more rule changes that make it easier in other ways. Great talents are great no matter WHAT. The fact that there is no great talent in the league right now that is let's say, 7 feet tall is simply because it's RARE. How many times has a Wilt, Kareem, or Shaq level player come and gone throughout basketball history? Are we supposed to act like there are players of that caliber in the league today who are stifled by rules? That's a load of hot B.S. A player of any of those 3 caliber would be sensational since HS level and the simple fact of the matter is Shaq was the most recent player of that magnitude. Another will come along someday - and these B.S. 'rule changes killed big men!' theories will disappear.

[bdreason]

I said it's a contributing factor. The rule changes have also contributed to this "era of PG's". The inability of defenders to be physical on the perimeter has turned every small / quick player into an unstoppable force. Many of these smaller guards would get bullied and pushed off their line in the past, but now they are allowed to get anywhere on the court that they please.


It's also important to consider that coaches have changed their strategies to adjust to the rules, meaning modern post players are actually given less opportunities to produce. How many teams in the league consistently run plays from the low post? Coaches have adjusted their strategies to maximize efficiency, which with the modern rules, typically means slashing to the basket and getting to the FT line as much as possible.

I actually feel bad for modern post players. You look at a team like Utah last season, whose backcourt was average at best, yet they never consistently posted Al Jefferson, one of the best post players in the league. It wasn't because Al Jeff isn't capable of scoring from the post. It's because as soon as the opposing defense decides to shut down the post, it becomes significantly less efficient to run the offense through the low post (because of the modern defense rules that allow doubling anyone, at anytime)... and you're better off just letting a perimeter player try to drive into the paint and get to the FT line.


For someone like me, who LOVES post play, it's actually a fairly depressing state of affairs.

[sportjames23]

half of the list in OP are really power forwards who play center almost full time. the center position is so weak that power forwards can play the 5 hole can fool people like the OP into thinking that there are decent centers.

the 80s and 90s had real centers. it used to be really obvious what a center and a power forward is. and no a stretch 4 isnt a power forward


This right fvckin' here.

[D.J.]

Ridiculous post and assumption.

http://youtu.be/zukRbA3y0qo?t=17m45s

Listen to the pros touch on this subject. Armchair experts who leap to the conclusion that the center position is 'obsolete' (simply because there are currently no dominant centers) are doing nothing but blowing smoke out their ass. The position is not and will never be obsolete. The simple fact of the matter is dominant and truly gifted centers are rare and always have been. There are never more than a few in the league at a time, and some times a few years go by where we see none. The last crop that had potential are injury prone so right now we're in a particularly void era of bigs. Our current era does have plenty of servicable centers, just no dominant ones. If you think this era or any era would render a Kareem or Shaq or Wilt 'obsolete' than you fail to understand the game of basketball.


Looking at past championship teams, it seems the center position is obselete. Like I said before, today's game involves centers playing like oversized 4s. Look at past champs and their centers and power forwards:


2013- Chris Bosh-Udonis Haslem
2012- Chris Bosh-Shane Battier/Udonis Haslem
2011- Tyson Chandler-Dirk Nowitzki
2010- Andrew Bynum-Pau Gasol
2009- Pau Gasol-Lamar Odom
2008- Kendrick Perkins-Kevin Garnett
2007- Fabricio Oberto-Tim Duncan
2006- Shaquille O'Neal-Antoine Walker/Udonis Haslem


With the current rules the way they are, they don't let players be centers like you could back in the day. Today's game favors perimeter players and big men who play on the perimeter. Chris Bosh is really a PF and he plays like one. Gasol is also really a PF. Then you have guys like Chandler, Perkins, and Oberto who can all defend, but contribute very little offensively. In those cases, their team has a very good PF(Dirk, Garnett, Duncan).

So yes, the center position is about as obsolete as you can get. Gone are the days where you need a Shaq, Admiral, Hakeem, or Kareem. Back then, the only exception was the Bulls(Cartwright and Longley).

[D.J.]

The NBA even created a rule that disallows posting up for more than 5 seconds. :oldlol:


That's the Charles Barkley rule. He would just post you up from 20 feet out and back you down all the way to the hoop. And he'd get away with it because he was so strong.

[Blue&Orange]

It's not weak, it's just obsolete. With today's game favoring perimeter players and outside play, points are really combo guards and centers are more like oversized 4s. The days of centers like Laimbeer and Parish are over.
So stupid :facepalm :facepalm

If center position is obsolete why did the Lakers traded for Howard when they knew there was a big chance he would walk?

Why does every team overpaid centers and try to get them at any cost?


Center position is disgraceful weak.

[Blue&Orange]

Like I said before, today's game involves centers playing like oversized 4s.

Chris Bosh is really a PF and he plays like one. Gasol is also really a PF.
More stupid.

So which is it? Are Bosh and Gasol centers playing like oversized 4's, or really PF's?


And here i thought the trend was putting PF's playing like centers, small lineups because guess what centers are incredible bad.

[Jon_Koncak]

You know the current crop of centers suck when players like Valancunas,McGee,Sanders,Vucevic,Gortat are considered the elite of the league.