Can You Win a Title With Deron Williams as Your Best Player?

[SilkkTheShocker]

I personally don't see it. I honestly believe this guy is the most overrated player in the NBA. I could legit see them losing in round 1 to the Knicks.

[Myth]

Sure if he is surrounded like a good cast (like he is). I don't think they will win, but they have an outside shot at it. He is overrated by some (mostly because he used to be highly overrated and people still hold onto past beliefs) but since the Nets have underperformed the last couple years, I think he is also overlooked by many.

[SHABBA]

Theoretically, yeah. With the currents Nets, no.

[ProfessorMurder]

Yes, because with the team he has right now he doesn't have to be the leader.

[no pun intended]

In before CJ Mustard: The Sequel.

[Jameerthefear]

We'll see after this season. He's declined so much I just don't know if he has it anymore. No more excuses now. We'll see what he can do.

[STATUTORY]

highly unlikely

maybe in a flukey 2004 pistons or 2011 mavs type of season but would not be a huge upset type of scenario.

very few players in the league with more undeserved credibility than that dude

[OldSkoolball#52]

Depends where you rank Deron, I guess.


But IMO, unless you have Lebron, its hard to win a title without a superior frontcourt to your oppositon.

Look at the most successful teams in the playoffs last year: Grizz, Spurs, Thunder, Heat. Those are grinding, defensive, paint packing teams which usually starts up front. Exception being the Heat.

If you put Deron on the Grizz or the Pacers, is he their best player? Would that get them over the hump?

Its impossible to say. But I think it drives home the point that winning isnt a product of simply who you best player is. Lebron has four MVPs and onlytwo titles.

Its a team game.

[tpols]

A team with an ancient scottie pippen as their best player almost defeated a team led by peak shaq..


Just last year a team led by an ancient tim duncan almost beat a team led by prime lebron James..


Its time to start looking at the team as.. a team. And not just one player.

[SilkkTheShocker]

A team with an ancient scottie pippen as their best player almost defeated a team led by peak shaq..


Just last year a team led by an ancient tim duncan almost beat a team led by prime lebron James..


Its time to start looking at the team as.. a team. And not just one player.

Wallace was definitely Portland's best player, but I get your point.

[OldSkoolball#52]

Funny thing is, most people do subscribe to the "is this player good enough to win as the man" thing. And yet most of these same people (not OP i dont think) have guys like Carmelo in their top 5.

What has Carmelo won in 10 years? What has he won that Zach Randolph or Paul George havent??

"Oh but but but but thats different...."

So its convenient to rank guys based on team achievement... Until it doesnt suit your own agenda.

Right.

[DuMa]

if Billups was able to win finals MVP. then yes

[Brook(lyn)Lopez]

Yes.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Nobody can win a ring with player x as the best player until its actually done.

Can Deron win with 32 YO joe Johnson as his 2nd option? NO, but neither could Lebron. Does that mean anything? No

If Deron enters free agency, joins Durant & Westbrooke then yeah I'm sure he could win a ring

[verylegit]

Lebron needed help to win a title, and even then he had to turn super saiyin in the playoffs to win...what makes you think Deron Williams can achieve a title? He isn't even in the same realm as Lebron in terms of talent. However, he can definitely make an impact on a contender, as a starter. But he is not a guy I see shouldering the load in this league. Aside from Lebron, I can only think of Durant, Rose and Kobe as being the #1 option, and even then I have doubts.

[The JKidd Kid]

Easily, especially if you put him on a team like this Nets team, or a defensive juggernaut like the 04 Pistons.

[Hoopz2332]

No because Deron sucks

[salwan]

I've always thought that he's an overrated choker and lacks intangibles/heart.

--> See last year's playoffs.

but if anyone can help him, its KG and PP.

[The JKidd Kid]

I've always thought that he's an overrated choker and lacks intangibles/heart.

--> See last year's playoffs.

but if anyone can help him, its KG and PP.

Actually he was the only player that consistently showed up in last years play off series. The reason they lost had literally nothing to do with him. Anybody that blames it on him obviously didn't watch the series.

I bet you that you've seen a total of 2 playoff games TOPS that Deron has played in in his entire career

[NumberSix]

We gonna act like Williams is Brooklyn's best player.

[The JKidd Kid]

We gonna act like Williams is Brooklyn's best player.

He is without question. If you actually watched them play, you would know this.

[Eric Cartman]

04 Pistons anyone?

[NumberSix]

He is without question. If you actually watched them play, you would know this.
They literally haven't played a real game yet.

[mugiwara]

Deron Williams is a fantastic player, to say otherwise is ridiculous. The question itself is stupid, its obvious brooklyn have an opportunity to win it all this year. This thread would not exist if that was not the case.

[NumberSix]

Deron Williams is a fantastic player, to say otherwise is ridiculous. The question itself is stupid, its obvious brooklyn have an opportunity to win it all this year. This thread would not exist if that was not the case.
Why do people feel the need to staunchly oppose the statements that nobody made? Who is out here saying he isn't a good player?

[k0kakw0rld]

I personally don't see it. I honestly believe this guy is the most overrated player in the NBA. I could legit see them losing in round 1 to the Knicks.
STFU
what is your argument for him being overrated?

[NumberSix]

STFU
what is your argument for him being overrated?
What exactly do you think the word "overrated" means?

[The JKidd Kid]

They literally haven't played a real game yet.

Even last season, when Williams was 20 pounds overweight and had no ankles, he was the best player on the team. When he was healthy he was a top 10 player in the league and averaged 24 and 8 on 48/42

[The JKidd Kid]

What exactly do you think the word "overrated" means?

He's extremely underrated. One of 4 players in the league that can take over the game with both his passing and scoring. The other three: Lebron James, Tony Parker and Chris Paul. He has a huge variety of ways to score, 40% 3pt shooter, great finisher, great off the dribble, best off ball player at his position, can post up and is money from mid range. His versatility scoring the ball is matched matched only by a handful of other players in the league. He's also one of the few players at his position that isn't a defensive liability.

Yet people still rank Chuckrie Irving over him. :facepalm

[Real Men Wear Green]

Is he that much worse than Chauncey Billups was? Ben Wallace may have been better than Billups but depending on the line-up a team puts together it's possible.

[wakencdukest]

When you have a starting five like they do, sure you can win it all. He might not be the greatest point guard in the league, but top to bottom, Brooklyn is better than a few teams that I've seen win a championship. So why does it have to be all about one player?

[TimmyDuncan]

If Deron enters free agency, joins Durant & Westbrooke then yeah I'm sure he could win a ring

Deron wouldn't be the best player if he plays with KD. Check the thread title

[Haymaker]

if Billups was able to win finals MVP. then yes

THIS :cheers:

[mugiwara]

Why do people feel the need to staunchly oppose the statements that nobody made? Who is out here saying he isn't a good player?

Above poster 'no because he sucks'

[IncarceratedBob]

No way. He's not a winner, he couldn't win great casts in Utah. Derek Fisher was playing over him in the clutch, that says it all.

[Pointguard]

See what Chauncey Billups did to five HOFer's, (at least prime Kobe and tail end prime Shaq).

[JellyBean]

Yeah. To win a title you need good role players and good defense. The Nets have that, plus savvy veterans. If everyone stays healthy, understands their roles, and plays solid defense, as well as rebound, anything is possible. So I believe that you could win with Deron Williams as your best player.

[VCDrivesAPorscheToWork]

Nobody can win a ring with player x as the best player until its actually done.

Can Deron win with 32 YO joe Johnson as his 2nd option? NO, but neither could Lebron. Does that mean anything? No

If Deron enters free agency, joins Durant & Westbrooke then yeah I'm sure he could win a ring


this thread is just pure Nets hate, jealousy, and vitriol. Stay mad everyone.


This thread in particular because rumors have it KD wants out of OKC and likes to sell ice cream in Brooklyn.

Don't people know despite this "mortgage," the Nets actulaly have good cap space in 2015

[I<3NBA]

Deron Williams is not their best player. KG is.

[It's A VC3!!!]

We'll see after this season. He's declined so much I just don't know if he has it anymore. No more excuses now. We'll see what he can do.

He averaged 19/8 last season. Since when in the world does that imply that he "doesn't have it anymore". I don't understand the hate on this guy. He's putting up stats that are amongst the best in his position. The year prior he averaged 21/9. Yes, his shooting percentage has went down but that's because he's been playing through injury for two seasons straight and is finally healthy. This guy is a superstar and has the potential to average 18/11 this season on a great shooting percentage. I have full faith in him.

[ChuckOakley]

Probably not.
If he is the Nets best player, it means Lopez hasn't stepped up his game, particularly on defense as he needs to be the Nets best player for them to win it all.

At the same time if Lopez has stepped it up and yet Deron is still the best player it means Deron is playing out of his mind and thus yes. However the first scenario is much more likely.

[ChuckOakley]

Meanwhile this is a rather generic and meaningless question.
The same could be asked about 95% of the league as simply, can you a title without a top 10 player?

[The JKidd Kid]

Probably not.
If he is the Nets best player, it means Lopez hasn't stepped up his game, particularly on defense as he needs to be the Nets best player for them to win it all.

At the same time if Lopez has stepped it up and yet Deron is still the best player it means Deron is playing out of his mind and thus yes. However the first scenario is much more likely.

I don't see how in anyway, Lopez who turns the ball over half the time he tries to post up, can't pass out of double teams, averages one assist per game, can't rebound, is ridiculously slow and is a defensive liability is better than Deron Williams.

Deron is the most versatile player on the team, Deron is the one that makes his team mates better, Deron is the one that can single handedly take over games. Brook Lopez is just one of the tools Deron decides to use.

I can't comprehend why Nets fans have this unjustified hate towards Williams and are blinded by the idea of a player we drafted becoming a star.

I can't believe we are even having this conversation.

[ChuckOakley]

I don't see how in anyway, Lopez who turns the ball over half the time he tries to post up, can't pass out of double teams, averages one assist per game, can't rebound, is ridiculously slow and is a defensive liability is better than Deron Williams.

Deron is the most versatile player on the team, Deron is the one that makes his team mates better, Deron is the one that can single handedly take over games. Brook Lopez is just one of the tools Deron decides to use.

I can't comprehend why Nets fans have this unjustified hate towards Williams and are blinded by the idea of a player we drafted becoming a star.

I can't believe we are even having this conversation.
I can't believe 2 years of being fat (his own admission and fault) shooting terrible percentages, being a poor leader and playing porous defense is wiped away by half a season of great play.

Lopez is a superior offensive player and while he is inconsistent defensively he can impact the game with his defense which Deron cannot do. The rebounding argument is laughable as we were the second best rebounding team in the league last season and the team has been better on the boards with him on the court all 4 his healthy seasons. It's not a liability, unlike D.Williams play which has been for a majority of his tenure.

[The JKidd Kid]

I can't believe 2 years of being fat (his own admission and fault) shooting terrible percentages, being a poor leader and playing porous defense is wiped away by half a season of great play.

Lopez is a superior offensive player and while he is inconsistent defensively he can impact the game with his defense which Deron cannot do. The rebounding argument is laughable as we were the second best rebounding team in the league last season and the team has been better on the boards with him on the court all 4 his healthy seasons. It's not a liability, unlike D.Williams play which has been for a majority of his tenure.

He's not the superior offensive player in any way. Deron was definately unhealthy and he was a poor leader, but that doesn't change the fact that he's the best player on the team.

Lopez turns the ball over half the time he tries to post up, gets terrible post position and can't pass out of a double team. He's best when cutting to the rim. Deron on the other hand is one of the most versatile scorers in the game. He's a 40% 3pt shooter, a great mid range shooter, good finisher, can handle and finish on the break, can post up, can score off the dribble and is the best off ball player at his position. Along with this, he has the ability to put pressure on the defense and the passing ability to get his teammates open shots, Lopez doesn't do that. Dwight Howard, Tim Duncan and Al Jefferson regularly command double teams in the post. No one double teams Lopez because he's too soft to actually get deep position without the help of cross screens or off the pick and roll.

Lopez is a defensive liability and there is no way around it. He definately made an improvement, but all he did was go from ridiculously awful to below average. Hell, he made Mario Chalmers look like Derrick Rose and Udonis Haslem look like Hakeem Olajuwon last Friday. And his rebounding is a problem, the reason we didn't struggle last season is because when Reggie was starting, he averaged 14 rebounds a game. Deron is by no means a defensive liability. I've never seen anyone abuse Deron like you see people abuse Curry, Parker, Irving etc. You should be glad we have a big and strong PG like Deron, because when guys like Curry and Parker get switched on to a wing player, you should see the mad scramble of his team mates as they decide whether to double or not.

I don't understand why Nets fans have such a hatred for DWill. He's not Jason Kidd, WE GET IT. There's never going to be another Jason Kidd. I also don't understand why Nets fans have such an obsession with players we drafted. It's like any player we signed or traded for is tainted and impure, even though they support guys like Mirza Scrubletovic and Brook Softpez.

I bet you that if Brook Lopez was even an average defender, we would have gotten the 2nd seed last year. The reason we lost in the playoffs was because of Lopez's softness in the paint. It's funny how whenever the Nets lose a game, Nets fans immediately target Deron or Joe. What about Lopezs complete lack of interior defense or the fact that he gets out rebounded by the 6'4 Dwayne Wade.

[ChuckOakley]

Where your logic fails Jkidd is that Deron was that player for about 50 games in 2.5 years in BK and you assume he will continue to be that player. I'm not assuming that.

Meanwhile like I said Lopez's d is inconsistent, but his biggest issue is dealing with the guards that breeze right by Deron like Chalmers the other night. But offensively he's much better as he allows the team to play inside out, get open looks from 3 and get opposing bigs in foul trouble. Derons offense is positive if he's shooting well, which was rare for two years straight and finally happened by the middle of last season.

And no, I'm not comparing him to Kidd as there is no comparison. If I do have a comparison its Melo since this was our counteraction. Melo is a much better offensive player and a better player overall despite the spin the Nets tried to put on Deron as the better team player. Melo has never missed the playoffs while Deron did twice with the Nets and didn't get them anywhere close either time. Sure he had an inferior cast, but we all thought he was supposed to make others better. His defense has been atrocious 90% of his time on the Nets...partly because he let himself be out of shape.

[tpols]

When Deron missed the playoffs in '12 his best contributions were from these guys on the perimeter

Anthony Morrow.. all he can do is shoot liqability everywhere else
Jordan Farmar.. who went to europe in the following years
Gerald Green.. low IQ player who in general doesnt play winning basketball
Rookie Marshon Brooks.. huge liability defensively, average impact
Sundiata Gaines.. not in the league anymore

and these guys down low

Kris Humphries.. good hustle and rebounding thats about it.
Shelden Williams and Johan Petro.. nothing even has to be said about how bad these guys are...


It was literally one of the worst casts in all of basketball Ive ever seen in my life. Slowest least talented big men of all time and a bunch of low IQ one dimensional soon to be out of the league perimeter players.. besides Deron.


The year before that Deron only started 12 games all year. You cant hold that shit against him. Nets had the worst teams in the entire league those years


I still remember stephen graham getting a ton of burn at SF with Morrow starting SG beside him the majority of the year. Two guys who legit cannot even dribble at a college level starting in the nba...

[The JKidd Kid]

When Deron missed the playoffs in '12 his best contributions were from these guys on the perimeter

Anthony Morrow.. all he can do is shoot liqability everywhere else
Jordan Farmar.. who went to europe in the following years
Gerald Green.. low IQ player who in general doesnt play winning basketball
Rookie Marshon Brooks.. huge liability defensively, average impact
Sundiata Gaines.. not in the league anymore

and these guys down low

Kris Humphries.. good hustle and rebounding thats about it.
Shelden Williams and Johan Petro.. nothing even has to be said about how bad these guys are...


It was literally one of the worst casts in all of basketball Ive ever seen in my life. Slowest least talented big men of all time and a bunch of low IQ one dimensional soon to be out of the league perimeter players.. besides Deron.


The year before that Deron only started 12 games all year. You cant hold that shit against him. Nets had the worst teams in the entire league those years


I still remember stephen graham getting a ton of burn at SF with Morrow starting SG beside him the majority of the year. Two guys who legit cannot even dribble at a college level starting in the nba...

This, you take Deron off that team and Indoubt they would win more than 5 games.

[The JKidd Kid]

Where your logic fails Jkidd is that Deron was that player for about 50 games in 2.5 years in BK and you assume he will continue to be that player. I'm not assuming that.

Meanwhile like I said Lopez's d is inconsistent, but his biggest issue is dealing with the guards that breeze right by Deron like Chalmers the other night. But offensively he's much better as he allows the team to play inside out, get open looks from 3 and get opposing bigs in foul trouble. Derons offense is positive if he's shooting well, which was rare for two years straight and finally happened by the middle of last season.

And no, I'm not comparing him to Kidd as there is no comparison. If I do have a comparison its Melo since this was our counteraction. Melo is a much better offensive player and a better player overall despite the spin the Nets tried to put on Deron as the better team player. Melo has never missed the playoffs while Deron did twice with the Nets and didn't get them anywhere close either time. Sure he had an inferior cast, but we all thought he was supposed to make others better. His defense has been atrocious 90% of his time on the Nets...partly because he let himself be out of shape.

He did let himself get out of shape, I acknowledged that. He actually played pretty damn well two seasons ago considering his supporting cast that team won games because of him and only him, hell he averaged 9 assists with Kris Humphries as his second option. Deron is just as good of an offensive player as Melo considering his ability to get open shots for not only himself, but also his team mates and the fact that he can erupt for close to 40 on any given night.

Even when injured he had a larger effect on the offense than Lopez.

[ILLsmak]

I can't believe 2 years of being fat (his own admission and fault) shooting terrible percentages, being a poor leader and playing porous defense is wiped away by half a season of great play.

Lopez is a superior offensive player and while he is inconsistent defensively he can impact the game with his defense which Deron cannot do. The rebounding argument is laughable as we were the second best rebounding team in the league last season and the team has been better on the boards with him on the court all 4 his healthy seasons. It's not a liability, unlike D.Williams play which has been for a majority of his tenure.

Because you don't really know what a player can do until they are put in a position to win. Now he is. He wasn't even on Utah. So, let's see what he does.

I think a lot of people base his ranking on how he's been playing when he knew they were going to lose. Some guys can't take that. I can understand how he feels. I mean, I would stay in shape just for me... but I wouldn't put myself out there and try to average great stats or push myself if we couldn't win.

That being said, Brook Lopez is a great player. I think he will improve, but Deron is better because Deron is proven. Brook may get better, but I wanna see like 25 ppg from him before I even think about calling him better than Deron. I'm not worried about his rebounds or whatever... he needs to score and score big.

-Smak

[ChuckOakley]

Because you don't really know what a player can do until they are put in a position to win. Now he is. He wasn't even on Utah. So, let's see what he does.

I think a lot of people base his ranking on how he's been playing when he knew they were going to lose. Some guys can't take that. I can understand how he feels. I mean, I would stay in shape just for me... but I wouldn't put myself out there and try to average great stats or push myself if we couldn't win.

That being said, Brook Lopez is a great player. I think he will improve, but Deron is better because Deron is proven. Brook may get better, but I wanna see like 25 ppg from him before I even think about calling him better than Deron. I'm not worried about his rebounds or whatever... he needs to score and score big.

-Smak
He was in a position to succeed last season but failed for half the season and the playoffs. I hope we see second half Deron from here on out but I'm skeptical.

As for who the better is..it's close and hard to compare a PG to a C, but my original point was Lopez needs to be the best player (meaning he stepped up his D) for the Nets to win it all. 2nd D.will was great, but I'm not sure that's enough.

[It's A VC3!!!]

He was in a position to succeed last season but failed for half the season and the playoffs. I hope we see second half Deron from here on out but I'm skeptical.

As for who the better is..it's close and hard to compare a PG to a C, but my original point was Lopez needs to be the best player (meaning he stepped up his D) for the Nets to win it all. 2nd D.will was great, but I'm not sure that's enough.
Lopez' D is important, I agree. He's still brain dead when it comes to P&R. Also, Coach Kidd needs to limit Brook to one-two shots per game. The dude needs to plant his 290 pound ass in the LOW post and go to work. I respect his array of offensive abilities but this entire preseason he has maybe four points in the low post via posting up and the rest off mid range, long jump shots and quick catch and shoots five feet away from the basket.
And the thing that nobody talks about is his unacceptable lack of assists. Brook needs to begin kicking it out of double teams so we can get open threes. The Nets are never going to have this team again and seeing Brook force a shot against a double team is no longer allowed. Brook and Deron are equally important. We can't have Deron playing awful and Brook playing great or vice versa. It needs to be an equal domination effort from both of them.

[All Net]

Sure if you have other stars who can win you games...

[ChuckOakley]

Lopez' D is important, I agree. He's still brain dead when it comes to P&R. Also, Coach Kidd needs to limit Brook to one-two shots per game. The dude needs to plant his 290 pound ass in the LOW post and go to work. I respect his array of offensive abilities but this entire preseason he has maybe four points in the low post via posting up and the rest off mid range, long jump shots and quick catch and shoots five feet away from the basket.
And the thing that nobody talks about is his unacceptable lack of assists. Brook needs to begin kicking it out of double teams so we can get open threes. The Nets are never going to have this team again and seeing Brook force a shot against a double team is no longer allowed. Brook and Deron are equally important. We can't have Deron playing awful and Brook playing great or vice versa. It needs to be an equal domination effort from both of them.
I think half his problem with passing is that
a. He's always been told to shoot, don't pass
b. Usually he's doubled by the PF's guy, and having Hump, Yi, Evans, Favors and the like to pass to hasn't really been an option.

He does have decent passing skills, but not when rushed/doubled.

The one thing I liked about PJC last year.. he told people not pass to Brook if he was posting up outside 10 feet or whatever it was. He needs to establish position as low as possible using his strength and dunk the damn ball like VC begged him his rookie year when he ended up top 10 in dunks (like he was his 2nd year as well and he was #1in the playoffs after round 1 as well).

He also needs to use all his fouls.. and use them hard. Not stupid offensive fouls or ticky tack fouls on defense, rather he needs to challenge shots hard. Part of me think he's afraid to leave his feet and land awkwardly. But if that's not a concern, use those 6 fouls as we have depth at center with KG and Blatche.

[Nets fan 93]

Nobody can win a ring with player x as the best player until its actually done.

Can Deron win with 32 YO joe Johnson as his 2nd option? NO, but neither could Lebron. Does that mean anything? No

If Deron enters free agency, joins Durant & Westbrooke then yeah I'm sure he could win a ring
Does it matter if Johnson is the second option if the really offensively efficient Brook Lopez is his first?

[The JKidd Kid]

He was in a position to succeed last season but failed for half the season and the playoffs. I hope we see second half Deron from here on out but I'm skeptical.

As for who the better is..it's close and hard to compare a PG to a C, but my original point was Lopez needs to be the best player (meaning he stepped up his D) for the Nets to win it all. 2nd D.will was great, but I'm not sure that's enough.

How in the world did Deron fail in the play offs. He was great, the only way they scored was because of Deron pressuring the defense. He was the last person to give up in game 7, even though Brook and everyone else was just walking down the court with their heads down, Deron was charging at the Bulls defense all by himself while the rest of them moped around in the back court. If we are going to act like casual fans and blame the loss on one player than there is no way you can't blame Lopez. It was his lack of rebounding, and the fact that he allowed everyone to score in the paint and let a one legged Joakim Noah dominate him. When Brook posted up, the Bulls never double teamed him because they knew he wasn't going to do anything, you know who they were constantly doubling? Deron Williams. Really shows who the Bulls thought was the best player.

Also, don't even try to mention Nate Robinson because Nate only played well in one quarter and then played like a average PG for the rest of the series.

Even if Lopez becomes an average defender, he still wouldn't affect the game the way Deron does.

[bizil]

I definitely think u can win with Deron as your best player. He's a PG who looks to pass first but can dominate a game scoring. He and CP3 are the best PG's in the L who bring that to the table. It's what Big O, Magic, and Isiah did in epic ways in the past. U can win with those kind of guys as your best player. But the perimeter guys like Bron, Kobe, Bird, Big O, Magic, and MJ are so damn versatile and skilled that they can dominate in ways smaller guards can't. But don't get it twisted, D-Will can be your best player and u can win a title.

[noob cake]

Yes, when you have 3 other players (when motivated, healthy) on the same level.

4 B-level stars in Pierce, Garnett, Deron and Johnson can easily win a chip.

[DMAVS41]

No. I doubt a team can win with Deron as the clear cut best player.

[niko]

Team by committee, and Deron is the best player? Yes. Team where Deron has to be the Jason Kidd type MVP directing everything. **** no. He's not that level of a player. But i see no indication the Nets are heading in that direction anyway.

[Fresh Kid]

Deron dont have tha heart.... end thread/

[niko]

Deron dont have tha heart.... end thread/
You've yet to get no one takes you seriously for some reason...

[livinglegend]

Fat chubby players (william, melo,..) wont win you any championship as the leader.

[niko]

How in the world did Deron fail in the play offs. He was great, the only way they scored was because of Deron pressuring the defense. He was the last person to give up in game 7, even though Brook and everyone else was just walking down the court with their heads down, Deron was charging at the Bulls defense all by himself while the rest of them moped around in the back court. If we are going to act like casual fans and blame the loss on one player than there is no way you can't blame Lopez. It was his lack of rebounding, and the fact that he allowed everyone to score in the paint and let a one legged Joakim Noah dominate him. When Brook posted up, the Bulls never double teamed him because they knew he wasn't going to do anything, you know who they were constantly doubling? Deron Williams. Really shows who the Bulls thought was the best player.

Also, don't even try to mention Nate Robinson because Nate only played well in one quarter and then played like a average PG for the rest of the series.

Even if Lopez becomes an average defender, he still wouldn't affect the game the way Deron does.
I'm not sure what you watched in the playoffs last year, Deron down the stretch of game 7 was leaning on Gerald Wallace when he wasn't losing the ball. It sounds like Deron was dominating and no one else was contributing. I didn't see that. Not to be a hater (i think i stood up for Deron more than most Net fans early last year) but I've seen nothing from Deron the Net to say that the dominant player he was at times is absolutely what he will be this year. Nothing at all.

[The JKidd Kid]

You've yet to get no one takes you seriously for some reason...

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[The JKidd Kid]

I'm not sure what you watched in the playoffs last year, Deron down the stretch of game 7 was leaning on Gerald Wallace when he wasn't losing the ball. It sounds like Deron was dominating and no one else was contributing. I didn't see that. Not to be a hater (i think i stood up for Deron more than most Net fans early last year) but I've seen nothing from Deron the Net to say that the dominant player he was at times is absolutely what he will be this year. Nothing at all.

Gerald Wallace was definitely contributing but it was only those two. Everyone else had already given up. Deron was the last one to give up and you could see it in the fact that he was the first person into the frontcourt on the last 2 Nets possessions and took 2 3s and made one, while his team mates slowly followed him. I was trying to emphasize how ridiculous the idea that Deron didnt show up in the play offs, or gave up, that ChuckOakley proposed is.

I think that the way he looked in the few minutes we saw in preseason, the fact that the Nets are now running a real offensive system with spacing, the fact that he has veteran WINNERS around him and the fact that hes in arguably the best shape in his career all point to the result of him continuing his great play from the end of last season and then some. And if he doesnt then it is truly his fault and he has no excuses.

[ChuckOakley]

How in the world did Deron fail in the play offs. He was great, the only way they scored was because of Deron pressuring the defense. He was the last person to give up in game 7, even though Brook and everyone else was just walking down the court with their heads down, Deron was charging at the Bulls defense all by himself while the rest of them moped around in the back court. If we are going to act like casual fans and blame the loss on one player than there is no way you can't blame Lopez. It was his lack of rebounding, and the fact that he allowed everyone to score in the paint and let a one legged Joakim Noah dominate him. When Brook posted up, the Bulls never double teamed him because they knew he wasn't going to do anything, you know who they were constantly doubling? Deron Williams. Really shows who the Bulls thought was the best player.

Also, don't even try to mention Nate Robinson because Nate only played well in one quarter and then played like a average PG for the rest of the series.

Even if Lopez becomes an average defender, he still wouldn't affect the game the way Deron does.
We won games 1 + 5 easily when Brook played very well in both (as did Deron) and in general Lopez outplayed or played Noah even in 5 of the games. And while Brook shrunk in game 7 it was his very first playoffs, going against one of the best defensive centers in the game who Thibs was feeling fine. Brook was outstanding for his first playoffs, he even put up 21/9/2 on game 7 though he missed key rebounds.

Deron needed to exploit being played by Nate half the series and did not. His experience should have been able to pull us through.

And maybe I'm saying this wrong.. but I'll try again.
Lopez is more important to our success than Deron (especially with Livingston being an excellent fit for the starting 5)
They are close as players, but Lopez has to be the better player (meaning he's improved, especially his D) for us to win it all. If Deron is better than Lopez, it means Lopez didn't improve and thus I don't think the Nets can win it all.

[The JKidd Kid]

We won games 1 + 5 easily when Brook played very well in both (as did Deron) and in general Lopez outplayed or played Noah even in 5 of the games. And while Brook shrunk in game 7 it was his very first playoffs, going against one of the best defensive centers in the game who Thibs was feeling fine. Brook was outstanding for his first playoffs, he even put up 21/9/2 on game 7 though he missed key rebounds.

Deron needed to exploit being played by Nate half the series and did not. His experience should have been able to pull us through.

And maybe I'm saying this wrong.. but I'll try again.
Lopez is more important to our success than Deron (especially with Livingston being an excellent fit for the starting 5)
They are close as players, but Lopez has to be the better player (meaning he's improved, especially his D) for us to win it all. If Deron is better than Lopez, it means Lopez didn't improve and thus I don't think the Nets can win it all.

Its like you didnt watch the series. Deron was RARELY guarded by Nate Robinson and spent the beginning of the series being guarded by Kirk Hinrich and the end of the series being guarded by the 6'8 Jimmy Butler. In the rare case where Nate was actually guarding Deron 1 on 1, the Bulls always sent Boozer to double and used Luol Deng to guard both Reggie and Gerald who were positioned on the weak side. I bet you that there was less than 5 possessions in the entire 7 game series when one of these scenarios didnt happen.

Livingston doesnt actually fit with the starters, this is just another example of Nets fans blind hate propaganda towards Deron. Hes a pass first guard, yes, but there is a HUGE difference between him on the floor and Deron. You saw how his defenders would sag off whenever Livingston tried to feed the ball into the post and how they played him for the pass. Nets fans are just overreacting to his near triple double game.

Lopez is barely servicable on defense and is still below average. If Lopez does improve his defense to slightly above average and becomes a 20 and 10 player then I will gladly call him the best player on the team. But until he does that, its not even close.

Id honestly trade Lopez for Tyson Chandler straight up if he was the same age, especially on a team with this many offensive weapons.

[Bigsmoke]

That is a good question actually

[Fresh Kid]

You've yet to get no one takes you seriously for some reason...
naw, u just a jealous hater, and what i said was incorrect tho niko????:confusedshrug:

[Fresh Kid]

:roll: :roll: :roll:
nobody takes your delusional ass serious tho:no:

[ChuckOakley]

Its like you didnt watch the series. Deron was RARELY guarded by Nate Robinson and spent the beginning of the series being guarded by Kirk Hinrich and the end of the series being guarded by the 6'8 Jimmy Butler. In the rare case where Nate was actually guarding Deron 1 on 1, the Bulls always sent Boozer to double and used Luol Deng to guard both Reggie and Gerald who were positioned on the weak side. I bet you that there was less than 5 possessions in the entire 7 game series when one of these scenarios didnt happen.

Livingston doesnt actually fit with the starters, this is just another example of Nets fans blind hate propaganda towards Deron. Hes a pass first guard, yes, but there is a HUGE difference between him on the floor and Deron. You saw how his defenders would sag off whenever Livingston tried to feed the ball into the post and how they played him for the pass. Nets fans are just overreacting to his near triple double game.

Lopez is barely servicable on defense and is still below average. If Lopez does improve his defense to slightly above average and becomes a 20 and 10 player then I will gladly call him the best player on the team. But until he does that, its not even close.

Id honestly trade Lopez for Tyson Chandler straight up if he was the same age, especially on a team with this many offensive weapons.
Livingston was probably our best player this preseason. I don't know how much was him and how much is the new offense but he ran the team perfectly. In the final game where they both played SL had the much higher +/- and his defense is so much better than Derons.

[The JKidd Kid]

Livingston was probably our best player this preseason. I don't know how much was him and how much is the new offense but he ran the team perfectly. In the final game where they both played SL had the much higher +/- and his defense is so much better than Derons.

I havent seen enough of his defense to say he is a better defender than Deron and I highly doubt that you have either. The idea that Livingston is a better fit with this team is absolutely ridiculous. This team needs Williams as the dynamic scorer that can single-handedly take over a game and makes his team mates better. This team doesnt need a soft center that only scores and plays no D or rebounds.

Also, if we're going to pretend that +/- means jack shit, then I can just point out that Andray Blatche had much higher +/- than Brook. Oh but no! Brook can never do anything wrong.

[magnax1]

I dont know where this idea comes from that Deron doesn't give 100% or doesn't have heart. That described what was basically his complete opposite in Utah. There's plenty to complain about but that's not part of it.
If you can win a championship with Ben Wallace or Gus Williams as your best player I don't see why you couldn't with Deron. Especially considering Brook is basically his equal (possible better) With most teams I wouldn't bet on it, but the Nets are healthy I see them having a good shot honestly.
EDIT: Now that I think about it Brook probably is better than Deron.

[ChuckOakley]

I havent seen enough of his defense to say he is a better defender than Deron and I highly doubt that you have either. The idea that Livingston is a better fit with this team is absolutely ridiculous. This team needs Williams as the dynamic scorer that can single-handedly take over a game and makes his team mates better. This team doesnt need a soft center that only scores and plays no D or rebounds.

Also, if we're going to pretend that +/- means jack shit, then I can just point out that Andray Blatche had much higher +/- than Brook. Oh but no! Brook can never do anything wrong.
Brook does plenty wrong, but your blind love of Deron makes you think me critiquing Deron is blasphemy.

And +/- makes sense when you are looking at two players that play the same position for a game. When D.Will wasn't PG, SL was and the team did much better. Blatche played PF next to Lopez.

I've also seen Livingston long enough in his career to know he's a much better defender than D.Will has been on the Nets. His length is troubling for opposing PG's, while Deron's gut may be hard to get around, he's not that quick.

[ChuckOakley]

I dont know where this idea comes from that Deron doesn't give 100% or doesn't have heart. That described what was basically his complete opposite in Utah. There's plenty to complain about but that's not part of it.
If you can win a championship with Ben Wallace or Gus Williams as your best player I don't see why you couldn't with Deron. Especially considering Brook is basically his equal (possible better) With most teams I wouldn't bet on it, but the Nets are healthy I see them having a good shot honestly.
EDIT: Now that I think about it Brook probably is better than Deron.
The notion Deron does't give 100% came from his time on the Nets.

Allowing himself to be out of shape, constantly pouted and whining and playing some of the worst defense I've seen since Marcus Williams from a Nets PG were the main reasons.

[niko]

The notion Deron does't give 100% came from his time on the Nets.

Allowing himself to be out of shape, constantly pouted and whining and playing some of the worst defense I've seen since Marcus Williams from a Nets PG were the main reasons.
I get the general feeling people think Deron became the PG starting last year on the expansion Brooklyn Nets.

[The JKidd Kid]

The notion Deron does't give 100% came from his time on the Nets.

Allowing himself to be out of shape, constantly pouted and whining and playing some of the worst defense I've seen since Marcus Williams from a Nets PG were the main reasons.

Some of the worst defense? Have you watched basketball recently? Did you watch the ridiculous attempts of Stephen Curry and Tony Parker trying to guard each other in the playoffs? That's bad defense. Deron is by no means a bad defender, I don't understand where this idea comes from. You should be happy that we have Deron instead of Parker/Curry/Irving/Wall/Rose those guys are absolute defensive liabilities, Deron isn't.

[air mamba]

Yea, you can win a title with Deron williams, just put a team around him.

Do people forget he took the jazz as far as the western conf finals and lost to the champs that year, the spurs

and the western conf semis and lost to the champs that year, the lakers.

[Fresh Kid]

Yea, you can win a title with Deron williams, just put a team around him.

Do people forget he took the jazz as far as the western conf finals and lost to the champs that year, the spurs

and the western conf semis and lost to the champs that year, the lakers.
tha big difference is that deron had more heart back then, now he doesn't.

[ChuckOakley]

Some of the worst defense? Have you watched basketball recently? Did you watch the ridiculous attempts of Stephen Curry and Tony Parker trying to guard each other in the playoffs? That's bad defense. Deron is by no means a bad defender, I don't understand where this idea comes from. You should be happy that we have Deron instead of Parker/Curry/Irving/Wall/Rose those guys are absolute defensive liabilities, Deron isn't.
I said of Nets PG's... and of the top 8 PGs' he was #7/8 in defense.
http://www.truthaboutit.net/2013/09/point-guard-defense-where-does-john-wall-rank-among-the-nbas-best.html


Deron Williams

DRAPM: 8 of 8 (-2.04)
D-ASPM: 8 of 8 (1.39)
Opponent Production: 6 of 8 (15.68)
IPVd Rating: 8 of 8 (-1.4)
On/Off Rating: 6 of 8 (+4.2)
P&R Defense: 5 of 8 (0.80)
Team DRTG: 1 of 8 (107.7)

[SamuraiSWISH]

You could win a title with Deron Williams if you have healthy: Joe Johnson, Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett, AK47 and Brook Lopez next to him. That's an extremely well rounded starting lineup. A really formidable threat if everyone is on their game.