Russell or Mikan: Who's the most dominant player before the Kareem era?

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://patdollard.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/2839335-morgan_freeman_wallpaper_4_normal.jpg

Bill Russell - led his Celtics to 11 world championships, while being the leading rebounder for every title, and the leading assist man for two titles, but never was the leading scorer.

http://media.bakersfieldnow.com/images/100604_john_wooden.jpg

George Mikan - led his Lakers to 5 world championships, while being the leading scorer and rebounder for every title.

A case can be made for another man:

http://thecheappop.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/july2.jpg

Wilt Chamberlain - led his Sixers and Lakers to 2 world championships, while being the leading rebounder for both titles and the leading assist man for one of the titles.

So who was the most dominant player of the old era?

[Brook(lyn)Lopez]

Mikan played in an era where there was like no black people at all.
He was mad tall and dominated a bunch of slow, shorter, non athletic white guys.
So of course it's surprise no he was more dominant, but it doesn't mean anything when you adjust for era.

[inclinerator]

u posted a pic of will smith

[riseagainst]

lol @ Nelson Mandela pic. lol

[PHILA]

before the Kareem era?

Russell was more dominant than all the centers, including KAJ.

[Deuce Bigalow]

u posted a pic of will smith
That's Bill Russell I think

[Young X]

How come Mikan doesn't get anywhere near the recognition that Russell and Wilt do nowadays? He dominated the league in similar fashion, yet I hardly see people mention him on their lists. Never understood this.

[FKAri]

No Wilt?

[Deuce Bigalow]

No Wilt?
Added him to the OP. Although he managed 1 title during the Mikan & Russell eras.

[aj1987]

How come Mikan doesn't get anywhere near the recognition that Russell and Wilt do nowadays? He dominated the league in similar fashion, yet I hardly see people mention him on their lists. Never understood this.
Some people actually have AI over Mikan in their GOAT lists.

[kamil]

lol @ Nelson Mandela pic. lol

I don't know if I should be impressed that you've heard of Nelson Mandela or be disappointed that you think Morgan Freeman is Nelson Mandela.

:confusedshrug:

[aj1987]

I don't know if I should be impressed that you've heard of Nelson Mandela or be disappointed that you think Morgan Freeman is Nelson Mandela.

:confusedshrug:
http://i.imgur.com/PbsYlKM.jpg

[kamil]

http://i.imgur.com/PbsYlKM.jpg

Never underestimate the stupidity of people on ISH.

[Trollsmasher]

So Wilt fought against space invanders too?:biggums:

[Psileas]

Russell or Mikan: Who's the most dominant player before the Kareem era?

1 title before Magic's era. "Kareem era" doesn't exist. Change it to "Cowens era" or "Dr.J era".

[Deuce Bigalow]

1 title before Magic's era. "Kareem era" doesn't exist. Change it to "Cowens era" or "Dr.J era".
Kareem was still elite in '80 and '82 though. I would agree it was more like the Magic and Bird era instead of the Kareem era.

[SpanishACB]

u posted a pic of will smith

and it's the only one you noticed to be fake

[Deuce Bigalow]

How come Mikan doesn't get anywhere near the recognition that Russell and Wilt do nowadays? He dominated the league in similar fashion, yet I hardly see people mention him on their lists. Never understood this.
Yeah, it doesn't make sense since most people have Russell and Wilt in the top 5. Russell played his first NBA game in 1956, Mikan played his last a couple months before in the same year, and won a title two years prior.

[NumberSix]

Wilt

/thread

[LAZERUSS]

In their ten years in the league together, Wilt and Russell each won four MVP awards. However, Chamberlain was clearly robbed in '62, and had a solid case in '64 over Oscar (especially when you compare rosters.)

BUT, Wilt held a 7-2 margin in First-Team All-NBA selections over Russell in that span. AND, by the mid-to-late 60's, Chamberlain was blowing Russell away in the voting.

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, Chamberlain outplayed Russell in every facet of the game over the course of their 143 career H2H's. And before someone brings up FTs, Wilt heavily OUTSCORED Russell from the line. In the known data that we do have, Chamberlain held an edge in EVERY department. Furthermore there were games in which Wilt just carpet-bombed Russell.

Of course the Russell-supporters will bring up team success, but, had those two swapped rosters, and, as John Wooden said, ... it would have been Wilt winning all those rings.

[Deuce Bigalow]

In their ten years in the league together, Wilt and Russell each won four MVP awards. However, Chamberlain was clearly robbed in '62, and had a solid case in '64 over Oscar (especially when you compare rosters.)

BUT, Wilt held a 7-2 margin in First-Team All-NBA selections over Russell in that span. AND, by the mid-to-late 60's, Chamberlain was blowing Russell away in the voting.
In the 10 years they played in the league together, Russell won 9 titles, Wilt won 1. Russell was also voted the GOAT player a couple years after he retired.

[LAZERUSS]

In the 10 years they played in the league together, Russell won 9 titles, Wilt won 1. Russell was also voted the GOAT player a couple years after he retired.

Russell's TEAMs held a 9-1 margin over Wilt's TEAMs. And, BTW, Russell was voted GOAT player ONLY because ACTIVE players were not included in the voting in 1971 (and of course, Chamberlain was still playing in 1971.)

Furthermore, Russell was voted GOAT player in 1980 by the basketball writers of association of America...which was interesting...since they evidently weren't the same writers who voted Chamberlain ahead of Russell in First-Team All-NBA voting by a 7-2 margin in their ten years in the league together...AT THE TIME they were playing.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Russell's TEAMs held a 9-1 margin over Wilt's TEAMs. And, BTW, Russell was voted GOAT player ONLY because ACTIVE players were not included in the voting in 1971.
9 to 1 advantage. Not even close

[LAZERUSS]

9 to 1 advantage. Not even close

Actually, it was VERY close. Russell's TEAMs edged Wilt's TEAMs in FOUR of their playoff series by margins of 2, 1, 2, and 4 points. And thank god for Russell that his TEAMMATES were thoroughly outplaying Chamberlain's in their playoff H2H's, since Wilt was dominating Russell in those series.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Actually, it was VERY close. Russell's TEAMs edged Wilt's TEAMs in FOUR of their playoff series by margins of 2, 1, 2, and 4 points. And thank god for Russell that his TEAMMATES were thoroughly outplaying Chamberlain's in their playoff H2H's, since Wilt was dominating Russell in those series.
Actually, Russell and his teammates were thanking God for Wilt missing 9+ freethrows in those 2, 1, 2, and 4 point wins.

[LAZERUSS]

Actually, Russell and his teammates were thanking God for Wilt missing 9+ freethrows in those 2, 1, 2, and 4 point wins.

You mean the Wilt that went 8-9 from line in the game seven, two point loss in '62? On a team that collectively shot .354 in that postseason?

Or the Chamberlain that shot 6-13 from the line in the game seven, one point loss in the '65 EDF's with a 40-40 team (Russell's Celtics went 62-18)...albeit shooting 12-15 from the field, and badly outscoring, outshooting, and outrebounding Russell in that game. And, BTW, for that series, Chamberlain AVERAGED 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, shot .555 from the field, and .583 from the line....to Russell's 15.6 ppg, 25.2 rpg, .447 FG%, AND, Russell's .472 from the line.

Or the Chamberlain who outscored, outrebounded, outshot Russell in the '68 EDF's, DESPITE playing injured himself, and without HOF teammate Billy Cunningham the entire series, and with his two other starters, Luke Jackson and Wali Jones playing hurt, and basically worthless...in a game seven, four point loss.

Or the Wilt, in game seven of the '69 Finals, who outscored Russell by a 18-6 margin; outrebounded Russell by a 27-21 margin; outshot Russell from the field by a 7-8 to 2-7 margin; and OUTSCORED Russell from the line by a 4-2 margin? Oh, and while Wilt was shooting .875 from the field in that same game, his teammates collectively shot .360 from the floor

Yep. Russell did indeed thank Chamberlain for missing those FTs...since Wilt was just downright destroying him in EVERY phase of the game.

[Pointguard]

In the 10 years they played in the league together, Russell won 9 titles, Wilt won 1. Russell was also voted the GOAT player a couple years after he retired.

You misused the word you were looking for. Wilt dominated Russell as had all other players in his prime. Russell's team won more. Two very different things. Good attempt to find a clever way to leave Wilt out of a faulty statement tho.

[Deuce Bigalow]

You mean the Wilt that went 8-9 from line in the game seven, two point loss in '62?

Or the Chamberlain that shot 6-13 from the line in the game seven, one point loss in the '65 EDF's with a 40-40 team (Russell's Celtics went 62-18)...albeit shooting 12-15 from the field, and badly outscoring, outshooting, and outrebounding Russell in that game. And, BTW, for that series, Chamberlain AVERAGED 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, shot .555 from the field, and .583 from the line....to Russell's 15.6 ppg, 25.2 rpg, .447 FG%, AND, Russell's .472 from the line.

Or the Chamberlain who outscored, outrebounded, outshot Russell in the '68 EDF's, DESPITE playing injured himself, and without HOF teammate Billy Cunningham the entire series, and with his two other starters, Luke Jackson and Wali Jones playing hurt, and basically worthless...in a game seven, four point loss.

Or the Wilt, in game seven of the '69 Finals, who outscored Russell by a 18-6 margin; outrebounded Russell by a 27-21 margin; outshot Russell from the field by a 7-8 to 2-7 margin; and OUTSCORED Russell from the line by a 4-2 margin?

Yep. Russell did indeed thank Chamberlain for missing those FTs...since Wilt was just downright destroying him in EVERY phase of the game.
FT-FTA / Loss margin

'65 EDF
Gm 7: 6-13 / -1

'68 EDF
Gm 6: 8-22 / -8
Gm 7: 6-15 / -4

'69 Finals
Gm 3: 4-11 / -6
Gm 4: 2-11 / -1
Gm 7: 4-13 / -9

"Nobody gave away more championship games than Wilt" -Former Wilt teammate

[LAZERUSS]

FT-FTA / Loss margin

'65 EDF
Gm 7: 6-13 / -1

'68 EDF
Gm 6: 8-22 / -8
Gm 7: 6-15 / -4

'69 Finals
Gm 3: 4-11 / -6
Gm 4: 2-11 / -1
Gm 7: 4-13 / -9

How about FG% and teammates FG%'s?

Wilt's TRUE TS% in game seven of the '65 EDF's... .698 (Russell's was .441 BTW.)

Wilt's TRUE TS% in game seven of the '69 Finals... .621 (Russell's was .333 BTW.)

And Chamberlain played every minute of the '68 EDF's with almost the same injury that crippled Reed in the last three games of the '70 Finals...and Chamberlain STILL averaged 22 ppg and 25 rpg in that series.

"Had Wilt been surrounded by the playing cast that Russell had with the Boston Celtics, and had he had Red Auerbach as a coach, his TEAMs might well have won all those championships." John Wooden.

[Deuce Bigalow]

How about FG% and teammates FG%'s?

Wilt's TRUE TS% in game seven of the '65 EDF's... .698 (Russell's was .441 BTW.)

Wilt's TRUE TS% in game seven of the '69 Finals... .621 (Russell's was .333 BTW.)

And Chamberlain played every minute of the '68 EDF's with almost the same injury that crippled Reed in the last three games of the '70 Finals...and Chamberlain STILL averaged 22 ppg and 25 rpg in that series.
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0810/nba.best.post.season.performances/images/jerry_west.2.jpg

[LAZERUSS]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0810/nba.best.post.season.performances/images/jerry_west.2.jpg

Using your ridiculous logic, West COST the Lakers that game seven of the '69 Finals. He MISSED FOUR FTs and shot 14-29 from the field. And his TRUE TS% in that game was "only" .552, while Wilt's was, again, .621.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Jerry West - 1969 NBA Finals

Gm 1: 53 points, 10 assists
Gm 2: 41 points (Baylor scores last 12 points of game)
Gm 3: 24 points
Gm 4: 40 points
Gm 5: 39 points
Gm 6: 26 points
Gm 7: 42 points, 12 assists, 13 rebounds

[LAZERUSS]

Jerry West - 1969 NBA Finals

Gm 1: 53 points, 10 assists
Gm 2: 41 points (Baylor scores last 12 points of game)
Gm 3: 24 points
Gm 4: 40 points
Gm 5: 39 points
Gm 6: 26 points
Gm 7: 42 points, 12 assists, 13 rebounds

And, just like Chamberlain's '65 EDF's, when he absolutely crushed Russell, his TEAM lost. Furthermore, Chamberlain once again, and as always, outplayed Russell in the '69 Finals.

Of course, when West puked all over himself in the '72 Finals, it was WILT who CARRIED his team to their first-ever title in Los Angeles.

[Deuce Bigalow]

And, just like Chamberlain's '65 EDF's, when he absolutely crushed Russell, his TEAM lost. Furthermore, Chamberlain once again, and as always, outplayed Russell in the '69 Finals.

Of course, when West puked all over himself in the '72 Finals, it was WILT who CARRIED his team to their first-ever title in Los Angeles.
Difference is, he had another "Wilt" ON his team and still lost. Couldn't even ride West's coattails.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Of course, when West puked all over himself in the '72 Finals, it was WILT who CARRIED his team to their first-ever title in Los Angeles.
It was the first ever LA title because Wilt choked in 1969, while West CARRIED the team. Gave LA a 2-0 lead, that didn't last as Wilt choked that lead away, then West gives LA a 3-2 lead, Wilt chokes it away again.

[LAZERUSS]

It was the first ever LA title because Wilt choked in 1969, while West CARRIED the team. Gave LA a 2-0 lead, that didn't last as Wilt choked that lead away, then West gives LA a 3-2 lead, Wilt chokes it away again.

Lets give credit where credit is due shall we...

Baylor in game three 6 pt loss... 4-18 FG/FGA and 1-2 FT/FTA (BTW, he and West combined to shoot 1-14 from the field in the 4th quarter)
Baylor in game four one point loss... 2-14 FG/FGA and 1-6 FT/FTA
Baylor in game six seven two point loss... 8-22 FG/FGA and 4-5 Ft/FTA

Add in Van Breda Kolf's horrible coaching, especially in game seven...and it CLEAR who was responsible for LA losing that series.

Chamberlain was LA's second best player in that series, but only because of Van Breda Kolf's inept coaching.

BTW, Wilt's new coach the very next season asked WILT to carry the offense, and Chamberlain responded by leading the league in scoring in the first nine games of the season (32.2 ppg and on a .579 FG%), before shredding his knee.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Lets give credit where credit is due shall we...

Baylor in game three 6 pt loss... 4-18 FG/FGA and 1-2 FT/FTA (BTW, he and West combined to shoot 1-14 from the field in the 4th quarter)
Baylor in game four one point loss... 2-14 FG/FGA and 1-6 FT/FTA
Baylor in game six seven two point loss... 8-22 FG/FGA and 4-5 Ft/FTA

Add in Van Breda Kolf's horrible coaching, especially in game seven...and it CLEAR who was responsible for LA losing that series.

Chamberlain was LA's second best player in that series, but only because of Van Breda Kolf's inept coaching.

BTW, Wilt's new coach the very next season asked WILT to carry the offense, and Chamberlain responded by leading the league in scoring in the first nine games of the season (32.2 ppg and on a .579 FG%), before shredding his knee.
The second best player on the team has more responsibility than the third wheel.

24-66 FT for the series

Game where the series was lost - game 4

Wilt: 8 points, 2-11 FT in a 1 point loss that could have given LA a 3-1 series lead.

[LAZERUSS]

The second best player on the team has more responsibility than the third wheel.

24-66 FT for the series

Game where the series was lost - game 4

Wilt: 8 points, 2-11 FT in a 1 point loss that could have given LA a 3-1 series lead.

oh, you mean the same game that Russell, "the BEST player" shot 2-12 from the floor and 2-4 from the line in...and was outscored and outrebounded by Chamberlain?

[Greg Oden 50]

http://patdollard.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/2839335-morgan_freeman_wallpaper_4_normal.jpg

Bill Russell - led his Celtics to 11 world championships, while being the leading rebounder for every title, and the leading assist man for two titles, but never was the leading scorer.

http://media.bakersfieldnow.com/images/100604_john_wooden.jpg

George Mikan - led his Lakers to 5 world championships, while being the leading scorer and rebounder for every title.

A case can be made for another man:

http://thecheappop.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/july2.jpg

Wilt Chamberlain - led his Sixers and Lakers to 2 world championships, while being the leading rebounder for both titles and the leading assist man for one of the titles.

So who was the most dominant player of the old era?
wilt :rockon:

[LAZERUSS]

Of course, give me a list of the other NBA "greats" who ever averaged a 30-27-5 .515 (in leagues that shot .428 in that same span) playoff SERIES...much less over the course of their first 67 playoff GAMES...like Wilt.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Of course, give me a list of the other NBA "greats" who ever averaged a 30-27-5 .515 (in leagues that shot .428 in that same span) playoff SERIES...much less over the course of their first 67 playoff GAMES...like Wilt.
Not every great played in the '60s era

BTW Kareem '70-'80 Playoffs: 30.4 ppg, 17.8 TRB%, 57.0 TS%, 2 rings.

[LAZERUSS]

Not every great played in the '60s era

BTW Kareem '70-'80 Playoffs: 30.4 ppg, 17.8 TRB%, 57.0 TS%, 2 rings.

BTW, Kareem's post-season FG% IN the Wilt-era... .491. Seems like an old Wilt and an aged Thurmond were considerably better defensively than anyone else KAJ would face in the rest of his entire post-season career. Oh, and against just Wilt and Nate in those four post-seasons? .470 (and post-seasons series of .486, .481, .457, .428, and .405.)

[Round Mound]

Wilt...stupid thread.

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, Kareem played four years IN the WILT-era, and never approached the same level of domination, against many of the same centers, that a PRIME Chamberlain destroyed the league with.

A PRIME Wilt just CRUSHED centers like Imhoff, Dierking, Fox, Reed, Bellamy, and Thurmond to a FAR greater extent than a PRIME Kareem did, and KAJ was facing most of those same centers at a time when their careers were winding down.

[nycelt84]

Of course Wilt who bombed as a coach would have magically coached himself to 2 titles if he was in Russell's place. What a joke.

[Deuce Bigalow]

BTW, Kareem played four years IN the WILT-era, and never approached the same level of domination, against many of the same centers, that a PRIME Chamberlain destroyed the league with.

A PRIME Wilt just CRUSHED centers like Imhoff, Dierking, Fox, Reed, Bellamy, and Thurmond to a FAR greater extent than a PRIME Kareem did, and KAJ was facing most of those same centers at a time when their careers were winding down.
In the end, in their primes it was Kareem 4, Wilt 2.

[LAZERUSS]

Of course Wilt who bombed as a coach would have magically coached himself to 2 titles if he was in Russell's place. What a joke.

This is truly laughable.

Russell inherited AUERBACH's rosters and system. This was a HOF-laden roster, with the key players having played together for 5-10 years, and with a system that had produced EIGHT straight title winners. I'm sorry to tell you, but George Costanza could have led that team to titles.

All you REALLY need to know about Russell the COACH, was that, aside from Auerbach's teams, the man was a LOSER. And, in his last stint, his team went 17-41 with him at the helm.

Wilt may have been a poor coach, but his 73-74 Conquistadors had a better record than their previous season, and that team that had been coached by KC Jones, who would go on to lead Celtic teams to titles later on. And they were also worse the season after Chamberlain left. Furthermore unlike Russell's Celtic teams, Wilt was denied having his best Conquistador player even play ..which was, of course, himself.

[LAZERUSS]

In the end, in their primes it was Kareem 4, Wilt 2.

In the end, Chamberlain was a considerably better scorer, rebounder, more efficient FG% shooter (in terms of both peak and against league averages), better passer, better defender, and better shot-blocker.

And, he was better in all of those categories in the post-season, as well. AND, he was considerably more CLUTCH in the post season, too.

Furthermore, when the two were in the league together, he was a greater WINNER, as well. (He played in three Finals, to KAJ's one, in their four years in the league, and his 71-72 Lakers were clearly better than any team that Kareem would play for.)

[Deuce Bigalow]

In the end, Chamberlain was a considerably better scorer, rebounder, more efficient FG% shooter (in terms of both peak and against league averages), better passer, better defender, and better shot-blocker.

And, he was better in all of those categories in the post-season, as well. AND, he was considerably more CLUTCH in the post season, too.

Furthermore, when the two were in the league together, he was a greater WINNER, as well. (He played in three Finals, to KAJ's one, in their four years in the league, and his 71-72 Lakers were clearly better than any team that Kareem would play for.)
First 13 postseasons:

Wilt ('60-'73), ages 23-36): 22.5 ppg, 21.9 TRB%, 12.9 AST%, 52.4 TS%, 2 rings, 6 finals

Kareem ('70-'84, ages 22-36): 28.1 ppg, 16.0 TRB%, 14.0 AST%, 57.4 TS%, 3 rings, 6 finals

In the postseason Kareem was the better scorer, passer, more efficient, and the better winner.

[LAZERUSS]

First 13 postseasons:

Wilt ('60-'73), ages 23-36): 22.5 ppg, 21.4 TRB%, 12.9 AST%, 52.4 TS%, 2 rings, 6 finals

Kareem ('70-'84, ages 22-36): 28.1 ppg, 16.0 TRB%, 14.0 AST%, 57.4 TS%, 3 rings, 6 finals

In the postseason Kareem was the better scorer, passer, more efficient, and the better winner.

A PEAK Chamberlain was scoring 37, 37, 39, and 39 ppg in his post-season series. A PEAK Chamberlain was grabbing 30-32 rpg in his post-season series (and outrebounding the second greatest rebounder in history by margins of NINE per game.) A PEAK Chamberlain was handing out 9-10-11 apg in his post-season series. A near-peak Wilt was putting a 45 point-27 rebound-20-27 FG/FGA "must-win" Finals game. A PEAK Chamberlain had FOUR playoff games of 50+ points (including THREE in "must-win" games.) A way-past-his-peak Chamberlain was holding a PEAK KAJ to a .457 playoff series, including .414 over the course of the last four games of that series. A way-past-his-peak Chamberlain was blocking 15 of KAJ's shots in ONE series. A one-legged Wilt put up a .625 FG% Finals (and averaged 23 ppg, and 24 rpg in doing so.)

KAJ could only win ONE title in his first ten seasons. And he couldn't come close to a title in the weakest era for NBA champions in NBA history ('74 thur '79.) He folded his tent against Wilt and Nate in the playoffs in the early 70's; was outplayed in his biggest Finals game in '74 by a 6-9 white center; was brutalized TWICE by Moses in the 80's; and rode Magic's brilliance to five rings in the 80's. His Laker team won a ring in '88 despite his awful play. And without magic in '89, his team was swept. And, LA could win series clinching games without KAJ (of course the CLUTCH MAGIC was putting up a HUGE game in his absence.) And speaking of that, Chamberlain played every minute of the '68 EDF's with a similar injury that completely shut Reed down in '70...AND, he also played in that Reed series just four months removed from MAJOR KNEE surgery. But yet, KAJ would miss the most important game of a season with a mild sprain?

In fact, KAJ, with loaded rosters in the mid-to-late 70's, couldn't get his team past Sonics teams that had nowhere the talent. Only whe Magic arrived did he finally start winning anything since Oscar departed. And, when KAJ retired, the Lakers IMPROVED. Furthermore, when Magic retired, LA crumbled back to the pre-Magic era.

The Lakers, with Wilt, went to four Finals in five seasons, and won their first-ever title. When he left they became also-rans. They acquired KAJ, who couldn't even get them to the playoffs in his first season. And it wouldn't be until MAGIC came onto the scene that they would get back to where Chamberlain had left them.

[CavaliersFTW]

Of course Wilt who bombed as a coach would have magically coached himself to 2 titles if he was in Russell's place. What a joke.
Russell bombed as a coach after his playing days were over as well. How did you not know that? Oh that's right, because your talking out your ass, and you don't actually know much about this subject.

[Deuce Bigalow]

A PEAK Chamberlain was scoring 37, 37, 39, and 39 ppg in his post-season series. A PEAK Chamberlain was grabbing 30-32 rpg in his post-season series (and outrebounding the second greatest rebounder in history by margins of NINE per game.) A PEAK Chamberlain was handing out 9-10-11 apg in his post-season series. A near-peak Wilt was putting a 45 point-27 rebound-20-27 FG/FGA "must-win" Finals game. A PEAK Chamberlain had FOUR playoff games of 50+ points (including THREE in "must-win" games.) A way-past-his-peak Chamberlain was holding a PEAK KAJ to a .457 playoff series, including .414 over the course of the last four games of that series. A way-past-his-peak Chamberlain was blocking 15 of KAJ's shots in ONE series. A one-legged Wilt put up a .625 FG% Finals (and averaged 23 ppg, and 24 rpg in doing so.)

KAJ could only win ONE title in his first ten seasons. And he couldn't come close to a title in the weakest era for NBA champions in NBA history ('74 thur '79.) He folded his tent against Wilt and Nate in the playoffs in the early 70's; was outplayed in his biggest Finals game in '74 by a 6-9 white center; was brutalized TWICE by Moses in the 80's; and rode Magic's brilliance to five rings in the 80's. His Laker team won a ring in '88 despite his awful play. And without magic in '89, his team was swept.

In fact, KAJ, with loaded rosters in the mid-to-late 70's, couldn't get his team past Sonics teams that had nowhere the talent. Only whe Magic arrived did he finally start winning anything since Oscar departed. And, when KAJ retired, the Lakers IMPROVED. Furthermore, when Magic retired, LA crumbled back to the pre-Magic era.

The Lakers, with Wilt, went to four Finals in five seasons, and won their first-ever title. When he left they became also-rans. They acquired KAJ, who couldn't even get them to the playoffs in his first season. And it wouldn't be until MAGIC came onto the scene that they would get back to where Chamberlain had left them.
Wilt also played in the fastest pace era in NBA history while Kareem did not. What did Wilt achieve with those numbers? He never won a single championship while being the leading scorer of the team. Kareem has MULTIPLE TIMES. Kareem has averaged over 30 ppg in the playoffs multple times, including one postseason that LED TO A CHAMPIONSHIP IN '80, the year he was supposedly riding Magic's coattails. Not a single one of Wilt's 30 ppg postseasons even led to a Finals. And Wilt never even averaged over 30 ppg for a single Finals series while Kareem has. Every single postseason that Wilt played in, his PPG dropped EVERY SINGLE YEAR. Kareem, who retired the All-time playoffs points leader, raised his game in the playoffs some years while Wilt's offense got worse all the time. Speaking of over 30, Kareem has 75 30-point playoff games, Wilt 42. 30-point games in the Finals? Kareem 16, Wilt 4. Let's talk about playoff failures. Wilt was swept in the first round of the playoffs by a sub .500 team while having HCA in his prime. Wilt lost a total of 5 playoff series with HCA, and his overall record with HCA is the lowest win percentage of any top 10 considered player. And Wilt is the only player that is considered top 10 alltime that has a losing record in the NBA Finals. Wilt shot 24-66 from the freethrow line in the '69 Finals series including games of 2-11 FT and 4-13 FT, the same '69 Finals that teammate Jerry West carried a team like no other has seen at the time, but despite that Wilt couldn't simply ride West's coattails and make some freethrows in crucial games. Kareem won as many championships as the best player as Wilt did, difference is he won them while carry the team as the leading scorer both times, and was able to be a good sidekick to prime Magic Johnson for 4 more championships, something Wilt couldn't do with prime Jerry West in '69 and '70.

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, all anyone needs to know in these Kareem-Wilt discussions is this...

In Chamberlain's 62-63 season, with perhaps the worst roster in NBA history, Wilt played 47.6 mpg, and led the NBA in FIFTEEN statistical categories, including WIN-SHARES (and by a HUGE margin)...despite playing on a 31-49 team. He even outscored Russell, per game, by a 38-14 margin, despite having no help, and being swarmed.

And before someone labels that season as a "stats-padding loser"...they lost 35 games by single digits, and only had a -2.1 ppg differential. Once again, Wilt led the league in 15 statistical categories, including scoring, rebounding, and a then-record FG%. This same "loser" would also lead the league in scoring, rebounding, and set a then-record FG% mark three years later...and in doing so, took his team to the best record in the league.

In any case, Chamberlain played his heart out on that pathetic 62-63 team (which, by the way, lost to a bunch of scrubs in a pre-season scrimmage the very next season, without Wilt.)


Now, let's compare that with KAJ. In Kareem's greatest statistical season, 71-72, he played a career high 44.2 mpg, for a team that went 63-19, and had a +11.1 ppg differential. In that season he averaged 34.8 ppg, 16.6 rpg, and shot .574 from the field. But, in the post-season, he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn, shooting .437, and led his team down in flames.

Now, KAJ was gladly traded away by the Bucks before the start of the 75-76 season, to a mediocre Laker team. Here was KAJ's chance to go out and challenge some of Wilt's records. Surely he could rise to the occasion and put up huge stats on a team that desperately needed them, right?

Well, sorry to say, KAJ could only play 41.2 mpg, and averaged 27.7 ppg, and on a .529 FG%. He couldn't even get his team to a winning record or the playoffs.

Why? Why could a Wilt, saddled with a roster that couldn't have beaten a middle school girls team, still completely dominate the league. But, when KAJ was put in a similar situation, he basically folded his tent?

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt also played in the fastest pace era in NBA history while Kareem did not. What did Wilt achieve with those numbers? He never won a single championship while being the leading scorer of the team. Kareem has MULTIPLE TIMES. Kareem has averaged over 30 ppg in the playoffs multple times, including one postseason that LED TO A CHAMPIONSHIP IN '80, the year he was supposedly riding Magic's coattails. Not a single one of Wilt's 30 ppg postseasons even led to a Finals. And Wilt never even averaged over 30 ppg for a single Finals series while Kareem has. Every single postseason that Wilt played in, his PPG dropped EVERY SINGLE YEAR. Kareem, who retired the All-time playoffs points leader, raised his game in the playoffs some years while Wilt's offense got worse all the time. Speaking of over 30, Kareem has 75 30-point playoff games, Wilt 42. 30-point games in the Finals? Kareem 16, Wilt 4. Let's talk about playoff failures. Wilt was swept in the first round of the playoffs by a sub .500 team while having HCA in his prime. Wilt lost a total of 5 playoff series with HCA, and his overall record with HCA is the lowest win percentage of any top 10 considered player. And Wilt is the only player that is considered top 10 alltime that has a losing record in the NBA Finals. Wilt shot 24-66 from the freethrow line in the '69 Finals series including games of 2-11 FT and 4-13 FT, the same '69 Finals that teammate Jerry West carried a team like no other has seen at the time, but despite that Wilt couldn't simply ride West's coattails and make some freethrows in crucial games. Kareem won as many championships as the best player as Wilt did, difference is he won them while carry the team as the leading scorer both times, and was able to be a good sidekick to prime Magic Johnson for 4 more championships, something Wilt couldn't do with prime Jerry West in '69 and '70.

Easy response. Give Wilt a team with Magic, Wilkes, Nixon, and Cooper. Or a team with Magic, Worthy, Scott, and Cooper...all playing at high levels in the post-season...and he would easily have won six rings in his career.

KAJ's 70's teams, despite being the most talented in the league, repeatedly flopped. How come Barry, with a rookie in Wilkes, and a bunch of no-names, could carry a 48-34 team to a title, and yet KAJ, just a few seasons later, with a more seasoned Wilkes, Nixon, Hudson, and Dantley, couldn't even get past the first round?

KAJ had a TON of post-season FLOP-JOBs. He was badly outplayed in SEVERAL playoff series. He shot under the league FG% in MULTIPLE playoff series. He was routinely outrebounded, even by his own teammates. And without Oscar and Magic, he was basically a stats-padding loser.

As for Wilt, he was statistically outplayed by a starting center in ONE post-season series, and in that one, he was hailed by virtually everyone who watched it, as easily outplaying him.

West? He played well in the '69 Finals, in a series in which Wilt's COACH cost them the title. And he played well in the '70 Finals...up until game seven, when he blew chunks all over the floor. After that he was basically a flop. He didn't even play in the '71 playoffs. And in the '72 post-season, he shot .376 from the field, including an unbelievable .325 in the Finals. Meanwhile, Chamberlain carried that team to a title, and won the FMVP in the process. And in Wilt's last post-season, West was once again...awful, inclduding a series clinching game loss of 5-17 from the field.

Too bad Wilt didn't have MAGIC dominating the post-season for TEN years.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Easy response. Give Wilt a team with Magic, Wilkes, Nixon, and Cooper. Or a team with Magic, Worthy, Scott, and Cooper...all playing at high levels in the post-season...and he would easily have won six rings in his career.

KAJ's 70's teams, despite being the most talented in the league, repeatedly flopped. How come Barry, with a rookie in Wilkes, and a bunch of no-names, could carry a 48-34 team to a title, and yet KAJ, just a few seasons later, with a more seasoned Wilkes, Nixon, Hudson, and Dantley, couldn't even get past the first round?

KAJ had a TON of post-season FLOP-JOBs. He was badly outplayed in SEVERAL playoff series. He shot under the league FG% in MULTIPLE playoff series. He was routinely outrebounded, even by his own teammates. And without Oscar and Magic, he was basically a stats-padding loser.
:roll:

You act like Wilt played with nobody. He played with at least 9 HOF teammates, and in 12/14 seasons he had at least 2 HOF teammates on his team. In 1969 and 1970 he had Jerry West and Elgin Baylor, and like usual, gets real close to winning but ends up losing in back to back Game 7s in the NBA Finals. In the 1969 Finals, West had ONE OF THE GREATEST FINALS SERIES EVER, THE SINGLE BEST FINALS EVER AT THAT POINT. 38/5/8 average including 53/10 in game 1 and 42/13/12 in game 7. Wilt still lost with that help, in fact Wilt was the help at that point and still lost you clown, so all you can guarantee giving Wilt Kareem's teammates is choking in the Finals.

[LAZERUSS]

:roll:

You act like Wilt played with nobody. He played with at least 9 HOF teammates, and in 12/14 seasons he had at least 2 HOF teammates on his team. In 1969 and 1970 he had Jerry West and Elgin Baylor, and like usual, gets real close to winning but ends up losing in back to back Game 7s in the NBA Finals. In the 1969 Finals, West had ONE OF THE GREATEST FINALS SERIES EVER, THE SINGLE BEST FINALS EVER AT THAT POINT. 38/5/8 average including 53/10 in game 1 and 42/13/12 in game 7. Wilt still lost with that help, in fact Wilt was the help at that point and still lost you clown, so all you can guarantee giving Wilt Kareem's teammates is choking in the Finals.

Yep, Wilt had HOF teammates all right...

Playoff FG%'s...

'60 Arizin .431 Gola .412
'61 Arizin .325 Gola .206
'62 Arizin .375 Gola .271
'63 Gola...played 21 games and was shipped out
'64 Thurmond .438
'65 Thurmond (?)...half the season. Greer .455 Walker .480
'66 Greer .352 Cunningham .161 Walker .375
'67 Greer .429 Walker .467 Cunningham .376
'68 Greer .432 Walker .410 Cunningham broke wrist in first round (played 3 games)
'69 West .469 Baylor .385
'70 West .469 Baylor .466
'71 West and Baylor...both injured and do not play in playoffs. Goodrich .425
'72 Baylor retires after 9 nine games. West .376. Goodrich .445
'73 West .449 Goodrch .448

'62 Meschery was NOT an all-star. Shoots .397 in playoffs.
'63 Meschery (* All Star. Played 64 games. 16 ppg .425 FG% during season.)
'63 Rodgers (shoots .387 in regular season.
'64 Rodgers .329 in post-season.
'65 Jackson .338 in playoffs.

And how about this...

'60 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .380 from the field. Lose game six of EDF's.

'61 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .332 from the field. Lose in 1st round.

'62 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .354 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'64 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .383 from the field. Lose in game five of Finals.

'65 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .413 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'66 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .352 from the field. Lose in game five of EDF's.

'67 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .428 from the field. Wins Title

'68 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .416 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'69 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .421 from the field. Lose gaeme seven of Finals.

'70 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .469 from the field. Lose game seven of Finals.

'71 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .446 from the field. Lose game five of WCF's.

'72 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .414 from the field. Wins Title.

'73 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .446 from the field. Lose game five of Finals


Meanwhile...just look at KAJ's Lakers in the 80's post-seasons. His TEAMs, and TEAMMATES were ROUTINELY shooting over 50%. He had teammates shooting 60%! Worthy routinely averaged 20+ ppg and on .591 to .622 FG%'s. Magic had Finals of 26-8-13 .541, and put up a 42-15-7 game without KAJ. Not to mention all of the other teamamtes routinely shooting over 50% in their playoffs during the MAGIC-era.

Wilt NEVER had that kind of help. He only had a couple of role players barely shoot over 50% in his 13 post-seasons, and certainly never had a big-time teammate even come close.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Jerry West - 1969 NBA Finals

Gm 1: 53 points, 10 assists
Gm 2: 41 points (Baylor scores last 12 points of game)
Gm 3: 24 points
Gm 4: 40 points
Gm 5: 39 points
Gm 6: 26 points
Gm 7: 42 points, 12 assists, 13 rebounds
In game 4 of this series, with the Lakers having a chance to go up 3-1, Wilt "The big dipper" Chamberlain scored 8 points and shot 2 for 11 from the freethrow line in a 1 point loss.

Bbbbbbut no help!

[LAZERUSS]

In game 4 of this series, with the Lakers having a chance to go up 3-1, Wilt "The big dipper" Chamberlain scored 8 points and shot 2 for 11 from the freethrow line in a 1 point loss.

Bbbbbbut no help!

Gotta love it. You find a game, here-or-there in Wilt's post-seasons, in which he didn't play well, and blame HIM for losing the SERIES.

BTW, in that same game, his opposing center, Russell, scored a total of six points, on 2-12 from the field, and 2-4 from the line. AND, Wilt outrebounded him by a 31-29 margin.

And of course, what about Baylor in that same game. 2-14 from the field, AND 1-6 from the line. Furthermore, that was about what he did the ENTIRE series. But, go ahead and blame Wilt.

And in the GAME SEVEN, Chamberlain shot .875 from the field, and his teammates collectively shot .360...in a two point loss (and in which Wilt was left on the bench in the last five minutes by an incompetent coach who basically cost himself his career with that absurdity.)

[Round Mound]

Its Amazing The Thins Some People Do To Try to Bring The Greatest Peek Player of All Time Down. :oldlol:

Wilt Chamberlain Was The Most Dominant Player Ever!

[Deuce Bigalow]

Gotta love it. You find a game, here-or-there in Wilt's post-seasons, in which he didn't play well, and blame HIM for losing the SERIES.

BTW, in that same game, his opposing center, Russell, scored a total of six points, on 2-12 from the field, and 2-4 from the line. AND, Wilt outrebounded him by a 31-29 margin.

And of course, what about Baylor in that same game. 2-14 from the field, AND 1-6 from the line. Furthermore, that was about what he did the ENTIRE series. But, go ahead and blame Wilt.

And in the GAME SEVEN, Chamberlain shot .875 from the field, and his teammates collectively shot .360...in a two point loss (and in which Wilt was left on the bench in the last five minutes by an incompetent coach who basically cost himself his career with that absurdity.)
He shot 24-66 from the line for the SERIES (36.4%). It wasn't just that series, that's close to his average in the Finals, actually it is his avarage LOL within 1%. Awful. His career Finals FT% is 37.4% (Regular season is 51.1%). It's no surprise that he was 2-4 in the NBA Finals.

[LAZERUSS]

He shot 24-66 from the line for the SERIES (36.4%). It wasn't just that series, that's close to his average in the Finals, actually it is his avarage LOL within 1%. Awful. His career Finals FT% is 37.4% (Regular season is 51.1%). It's no surprise that he was 2-4 in the NBA Finals.

Actually, it is simply amazing that he was able to win TWO rings...when his teammates collectively shot .428 and .414 from the field in those two post-seasons.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Its Amazing The Thins Some People Do To Try to Bring The Greatest Peek Player of All Time Down. :oldlol:

Wilt Chamberlain Was The Most Dominant Player Ever!
LOL not even for centers

NBA Playoffs

Wilt Chamberlain - 22.5 PPG, 21.9 TRB%, 12.9 AST%, 52.4 TS%

Hakeem Olajuwon - 25.9 PPG, 16.0 TRB%, 15.6 AST%, 56.9 TS%

Shaquille O'Neal - 24.3 PPG, 18.0 TRB%, 14.7 AST%, 56.5 TS%

NBA Finals

Wilt Chamberlain - 18.6 PPG, 22.0 TRB%, 52.8 TS% (2-4)

Hakeem Olajuwon - 28.0 PPG, 14.0 TRB%, 53.4 TS% (2-1)

Shaquille O'Neal - 28.8 PPG, 18.3 TRB%, 59.0 TS% (4-2)


AND.....

NBA Playoffs - Michael Jordan - 33.4 PPG, 9.3 TRB%, 28.2 AST%, 56.8 TS%

NBA Finals - Michael Jordan - 33.6 PPG, 7.4 TRB%, 22.1 AST%, 55.9 TS% (6-0)

[Deuce Bigalow]

Actually, it is simply amazing that he was able to win TWO rings...when his teammates collectively shot .428 and .414 from the field in those two post-seasons.
FT% doesn't matter though, right? I mean, they don't count as points do they?

[LAZERUSS]

LOL

NBA Playoffs

Wilt Chamberlain - 22.5 PPG, 21.9 TRB%, 12.9 AST%, 52.4 TS%

Hakeem Olajuwon - 25.9 PPG, 16.0 TRB%, 15.6 AST%, 56.9 TS%

Shaquille O'Neal - 24.3 PPG, 18.0 TRB%, 14.7 AST%, 56.5 TS%

NBA Finals

Wilt Chamberlain - 18.6 PPG, 22.0 TRB%, 52.8 TS% (2-4)

Hakeem Olajuwon - 28.0 PPG, 14.0 TRB%, 53.4 TS% (2-1)

Shaquille O'Neal - 28.8 PPG, 18.3 TRB%, 59.0 TS% (4-2)

How about comparing TS% against league averages and opposing centers?

[LAZERUSS]

FT% doesn't matter though, right? I mean, they don't count as points do they?

They count HALF as much as a FGM. Chamberlain was shooting .560 from the FIELD against Thurmond in the 67 Finals, and .600 against Lucas in the '72 Finals.

Wilt's post-season TS%'s was far greater, as compared with LEAGUE AVERAGE, and especially against his OPPOSING CENTERS.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wilt is the most dominant regular season center of all-time, that I can agree with.

[Deuce Bigalow]

They count HALF as much as a FGM. Chamberlain was shooting .560 from the FIELD against Thurmond in the 67 Finals, and .600 against Lucas in the '72 Finals.

Wilt's post-season TS%'s was far greater, as compared with LEAGUE AVERAGE, and especially against his OPPOSING CENTERS.
You shoot 2 FTs though

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt is the most dominant regular season center of all-time, that I can agree with.

Give me a list of the playoff GAMES in which KAJ, Hakeem, and Shaq put up a 30-27-5 .515 FG% (and in post-seasons that averaged .428 shooting in that span), as well as probably 8 blocks.

A peak scoring Wilt AVERAGED that in his first 67 playoff games. All while badly outscoring, outrebounding, and just blowing away his opposing centers in FG%'s.

[LAZERUSS]

You shoot 2 FTs though

Not always, and certainly not in Wilt's case. He played in an NBA that had SINGLE possession FOUL shots, as well as 2-for-1's and 3-for-2's...all of which counted. Furthermore, only Shaq has a case for being anywhere near as prolific in "and-ones" (bonus FTAs.)

And, as we all, know Wilt, and everyone else, took far more FGAs than FTAs in their careers.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Give me a list of the playoff GAMES in which KAJ, Hakeem, and Shaq put up a 30-27-5 .515 FG% (and in post-seasons that averaged .428 shooting in that span), as well as probably 8 blocks.

A peak scoring Wilt AVERAGED that in his first 67 playoff games. All while badly outscoring, outrebounding, and just blowing away his opposing centers in FG%'s.
Wilt's TRB% was around 22% at that time, which is Dwight's career average. So the "27 rpg" is due to the pace.

Give me the number of championships Wilt averaged 30+ ppg in the Playoffs EN ROUTE TO A TITLE

Shaq - 2
Hakeem - 1
Kareem - 1

Give me the number of times Wilt WAS THE LEADING SCORER ON A CHAMPIONSHIP TEAM

Kareem - 4
Shaq - 3
Hakeem - 2

[Deuce Bigalow]

Give me the number of time Wilt averaged 30+ ppg in the NBA Finals

Shaq - 3
Kareem - 2
Hakeem - 1

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt's TRB% was around 22% at that time, which is Dwight's career average. So the "27 rpg" is due to the pace.

Give me the number of championships Wilt averaged 30+ ppg in the Playoffs EN ROUTE TO A TITLE

Shaq - 2
Hakeem - 1
Kareem - 1

Give me the number of times Wilt WAS THE LEADING SCORER ON A CHAMPIONSHIP TEAM

Kareem - 4
Shaq - 3
Hakeem - 2

Not Wilt's fault that his teammates routinely shot an eFG% of 40% in the post-season...while Hakeems and KAJ's were shooting 50%.

Chamberlain was also the team's leading scorer, rebounder, apg, FG%, TRB%, shot-blocker, and best defender on his '67 title team...over the course of the SEASON.

And Chamberlain led the NBA in scoring, rebounding, and FG% on a team with the BEST RECORD in the league in '66. How many times did Shaq, Hakeem and KAJ do that?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Not Wilt's fault that his teammates routinely shot 40% in the post-season...while Hakeems and KAJ's were shooting 50%.

Chamberlain was also the team's leading scorer, rebounder, apg, FG%, TRB%, shot-blocker, and best defender on his '67 title team...over the course of the SEASON.

And Chamberlain led the NBA in scoring, rebounding, and FG% on a team with the BEST RECORD in the league in '66. How many times did Shaq, Hakeem and KAJ do that?
Not in the Playoffs. His scoring, like ALWAYS fell.

So the answer is zero times? Is that a yes for both?

Way more players and talent in Shaq and Hakeem's era compare with Wilt's. Jordan for scoring, Moses for rebounding to name a few.

[LAZERUSS]

Give me the number of time Wilt averaged 30+ ppg in the NBA Finals

Shaq - 3
Kareem - 2
Hakeem - 1

How many times were Shaq, Kareem, and Hakeem outrebounded in their post-season series? Even by TEAMMATES? And how many times was Wilt outrebounded in his 29?

Same with FG%'s.

[LAZERUSS]

Not in the Playoffs. His scoring, like ALWAYS fell.

So the answer is zero times? Is that a yes for both?

Way more players and talent in Shaq and Hakeem's era compare with Wilt's. Jordan for scoring, Moses for rebounding to name a few.

Give me a list of the CENTERS that Hakeem faced in ALL of his playoff series in the '94 title run. And give me a list of the CENTERS that Shaq faced in his four Finals.

BTW, Chamberlain faced a HOF starting center in 105 of his 160 post-season games, and a multiple all-star in another 26. He either faced a very good, to all-time great center, in 82% of his entire playoff games. Care to give me Shaq's or Hakeem's breakdowns?

[Deuce Bigalow]

How many times were Shaq, Kareem, and Hakeem outrebounded in their post-season series? Even by TEAMMATES? And how many times was Wilt outrebounded in his 29?

Same with FG%'s.
You want to compare Finals series?

Shaq's Finals in his prime ('00-'02)

38/17/2 61% (win)
33/16/5 57% (win)
36/12/4 60% (win)

His TRB% would likely be over 20% for sure

3peat

More rings than Wilt won in his whole career in a 3 year span. More dominant than Wilt could ever dream of IN THE POSTSEASON.



Kareem's Finals in his prime ('71, '74, '80)

27/19/3 61% (win)
33/12/5 52%
33/14/3 55% (win)

2 championships, same as Wilt's career. Again, more dominant than Wilt's in the Finals.


How come Wilt was never this dominant in the Finals?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wilt's postseason TRB% = 21.9
Dwight's postseason TRB% = 22.2

For all you younger basketball fans, don't believe in these Wilt lies that posters like jlauber (lazeruss) try to sell you like "Who else averaged 27 rpg in their prime?" When so many greats didn't play in the fast paced '60s. Wilt rebounded at the same rate that Dwight did while on the floor, that is a fact.

[julizaver]

Wilt's postseason TRB% = 21.9
Dwight's postseason TRB% = 22.2

For all you younger basketball fans, don't believe in these Wilt lies that posters like jlauber (lazeruss) try to sell you like "Who else averaged 27 rpg in their prime?" When so many greats didn't play in the fast paced '60s. Wilt rebounded at the same rate that Dwight did while on the floor, that is a fact.

But Chamberlain rebounded with that rate for 47 mpg (Howard is playing 39 mpg) and for his whole career, not his first 8 seasons. Howard is still 27 years old. And the majority of Wilt's post season games were after he turned 30. If you want to be objective you should take Wilt's first 8 seasons and compare it to Dwight's.

[LAZERUSS]

You want to compare Finals series?

Shaq's Finals in his prime ('00-'02)

38/17/2 61% (win)
33/16/5 57% (win)
36/12/4 60% (win)

His TRB% would likely be over 20% for sure

3peat

More rings than Wilt won in his whole career in a 3 year span. More dominant than Wilt could ever dream of IN THE POSTSEASON.



Kareem's Finals in his prime ('71, '74, '80)

27/19/3 61% (win)
33/12/5 52%
33/14/3 55% (win)

2 championships, same as Wilt's career. Again, more dominant than Wilt's in the Finals.


How come Wilt was never this dominant in the Finals?

You are blaming a prime scoring Wilt for not taking his team's to the Finals? How many Finals did Shaq or Kareem make without a legitimate top-10 GOAT player (Oscar, Magic, and Kobe)?

But, how about Wilt's '64 Finals? Keep in mind that Russell's Celtics had EIGHT HOFers, while Wilt's lone HOF teammate was rookie Nate Thurmond, who was playing part-time, out of position, and shooting .395 from the floor. Wilt's best teammate was journeyman Tom Meschery, who averaged 13.5 ppg. True, Boston won that series, 4-1, but the last two games were decided in the last few seconds, and by margins of 3 and 6 points.

Oh, and this was against a Russell in arguably the greatest defensive season in NBA history...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_season.html

In that series, all Wilt did was average 29.2 ppg, on 24 FGAs per game, 27.8 rpg, and on a .517 FG%...in a post-season NBA that averaged 105.8 ppg on an eFG% of .420. All while holding Russell to 11.2 ppg, 25.2 rpg, and an eFG% of .386.


Or we could jump to the very next season. This, in Russell's second greatest defensive season. In that post-season, Wilt single-handedly carried his 40-40 Sixers to a game seven, one point loss against a 62-18 Celtic team in the peak of their dynasty.

In that series, Chamberlain averaged 30.1 ppg, on 20.5 FGA, 31.4 rpg, shot an eFG% of .555, and a true TS% of .560. In a post-season NBA that shot an eFG% of .429, and a true TS% of .478. In the meantime, Wilt held Russell to 15.6 ppg, 25.2 rpg, a .447 eFG%, and a true TS% of .450. As was almost always the case, Wilt blew away the post-season league averages in both eFG% and true TS%. He had a staggering true TS% margin over Russell of 11%!


And find me a series in which Shaq, or KAJ, ever slaughtered another HOF center as badly as Wilt did in the '67 EDF's. He oustcored Russell, per game, by a 21.6 ppg to 10.2 ppg margin' he out-rebounded Russell, per game, by a 32.0 to 23.4 rpg margin; he outassisted Russell, per game, by a 10.0 to 6.0 apg margin; and he outshot Russell by an eFG% margin of .556 to .358. In a post-season NBA that had an eFG% of .424. Even with his poor FT shooting in that series, Wilt still hung a true TS% of .542...in a post-season NBA that shot .468. Meanwhile, Russell's true TS% was at .425. So, as you can see, Wilt once again blew away the post-season league eFG% and true TS%, all while holding his opposing center to way below them. Oh, and in that series, the known block totals favor Wilt by a 29-7 margin, as well.

BTW, Wilt battled a peak Thurmond in the '67 Finals, and outscored him in five of their six H2H's; outrebounded him in five of their six h2h's; outassisted him five of their six h2h's; and outshot him by a eFG% margin of .560 to .343. In fact, Wilt faced Thurmond in the playoffs on three occasions, and outshot him by margins of .500 to .392; .550 to .398; and that .560 to .343 margin. Meanwhile a prime KAJ battled an aging Nate in three playoff series, and shot .486, .428, and .405 in the three of them. And in one of those, he was outscored and outshot by Thurmond.

[LAZERUSS]

But Chamberlain rebounded with that rate for 47 mpg (Howard is playing 39 mpg) and for his whole career, not his first 8 seasons. Howard is still 27 years old. And the majority of Wilt's post season games were after he turned 30. If you want to be objective you should take Wilt's first 8 seasons and compare it to Dwight's.

Well said. The anti-Wilt gang will always use pace against Wilt, but seldom mention HOF competition, mpg, or league averages.

Howard was simply not capable of playing anywhere near the minutes that Wilt did. He has never shown the stamina, and he always battled foul trouble (4.2 pf per game, in only 38.9 mpg.)

And find me a series in which Howard outrebounded a HOF center, in his prime, by margins of five, five, and even nine per game. A peak Wilt was putting up a TRB% margin of over 24, while holding a prime Russell to a 17.

Furthermore, Chamberlain was never outrebounded in any of his 29 post-season series.

Howard has never faced anyone even remotely close to a great rebounder in his entire post-season career.

Oh, and of course this is Howard's first foray into this discussion. Why? Because Shaq and Kareem were FAR inferior rebounders in both the regular season, AND, post-season in terms of TRB% And Hakeem is miles behind both of them in that category. And once again, I can find multiple series in which KAJ, Shaq, and Hakeem were outrebounded (and in some, by teammates), but you won't find ONE series, in the 29 in which Wilt played, in which he was outrebounded.

[LAZERUSS]

Regarding Shaq...I have always considered him a truly dominant center, much in the mold of a prime Wilt and Moses...centers who just blew away their best competition, but there was simply no way that Wilt could have gotten away with playing like this in his era...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

[Round Mound]

Regarding Shaq...I have always considered him a truly dominant center, much in the mold of a prime Wilt and Moses...centers who just blew away their best competition, but there was simply no way that Wilt could have gotten away with playing like this in his era...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

Just Imagine What Wilt Would Have Done If He Was Allowed To Play Like This Back Then? :bowdown:

[julizaver]

Kareem's Finals in his prime ('71, '74, '80)

27/19/3 61% (win)
33/12/5 52%
33/14/3 55% (win)

2 championships, same as Wilt's career. Again, more dominant than Wilt's in the Finals.


How come Wilt was never this dominant in the Finals?

Kareem's Finals in his prime in 1971:
27/19/3 61% (win)

Wilt in his decline in 1972:

19/23/3 60 % (win) with 7,3 blocks per game - equally dominant as Kareem previous year

[BuGzBuNNy]

A case can be made for another man:

http://thecheappop.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/july2.jpg

Wilt Chamberlain - led his Sixers and Lakers to 2 world championships, while being the leading rebounder for both titles and the leading assist man for one of the titles.

So who was the most dominant player of the old era?
Is it just me or does this picture of Wilt look freakishly like that guy from Fresh Prince? :oldlol:

[nycelt84]

This is truly laughable.

Russell inherited AUERBACH's rosters and system. This was a HOF-laden roster, with the key players having played together for 5-10 years, and with a system that had produced EIGHT straight title winners. I'm sorry to tell you, but George Costanza could have led that team to titles.

All you REALLY need to know about Russell the COACH, was that, aside from Auerbach's teams, the man was a LOSER. And, in his last stint, his team went 17-41 with him at the helm.

Wilt may have been a poor coach, but his 73-74 Conquistadors had a better record than their previous season, and that team that had been coached by KC Jones, who would go on to lead Celtic teams to titles later on. And they were also worse the season after Chamberlain left. Furthermore unlike Russell's Celtic teams, Wilt was denied having his best Conquistador player even play ..which was, of course, himself.

Wow you're truly an idiot if you think just anyone can lead a team to a title especially as a player/coach. I guess you miss what the star studded Lakers did last year with Mike D'Antoni as coach.

[LAZERUSS]

Wow you're truly an idiot if you think just anyone can lead a team to a title especially as a player/coach. I guess you miss what the star studded Lakers did last year with Mike D'Antoni as coach.

Once again...Russell inherited AUERBACH's roster and system. The bulk of the key HOF players on that team had played under Red for 5-10 years.

And the reality was, had Wilt and his '68 Sixers not been decimated by injuries, they would have easily repeated as champions, and Russell would have had one less ring as a player and a coach.

And also once again...after the Celtic years, Russell was a career loser as a coach.

And, how come Wilt did a better job coaching SD than KC Jones just the year before? The same Jones would coach Celtic teams to titles a few years later?

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt's postseason TRB% = 21.9
Dwight's postseason TRB% = 22.2

For all you younger basketball fans, don't believe in these Wilt lies that posters like jlauber (lazeruss) try to sell you like "Who else averaged 27 rpg in their prime?" When so many greats didn't play in the fast paced '60s. Wilt rebounded at the same rate that Dwight did while on the floor, that is a fact.

How about a peak Wilt vs a prime Russell in the '67 EDF's?

There were a total of 643 available rebounds in those five games, and Wilt outrebounded Russell by a 160-117 margin... a 24.9 to 18.2 TRB% margin.

Oh, and how about these three games of that series...

Game one...in a game with a total of 120 rebounds, Wilt outrebounded Russell by a 32-15 margin (a 26.8 to 12.5 TRB% margin.)

Game three. A total of 134 available rebounds, and Wilt outrebounded Russell by a 41-29 margin (a whopping 30.6 TRB% to Russell's 21.6 TRB%)

Clinching game five. A total of 128 available rebounds...and Chamberlain outrebounded Russell by a 36-21 margin (a 28.1 to 16.4 TRB% differential.)

Keep in mind that Russell is the all-time leading playoff rebounder...and yet, in their eight playoff series H2H's, Russell never outrebounded Chamberlain in even one series. And, Wilt was steamrolling him in several.


Of course, in their 143 career H2H's, Chamberlain held a 92-43-8 rebounding edge, and averaged FIVE more rpg in those games. BTW, how about Wilt outrebounding Russell in one h2h game by a 55-19 margin...in a game that featured 149 available rebounds...or a TRB% margin of 36.9 to 12.8!

[LAZERUSS]

You want to compare Finals series?

Shaq's Finals in his prime ('00-'02)

38/17/2 61% (win)
33/16/5 57% (win)
36/12/4 60% (win)

His TRB% would likely be over 20% for sure

3peat

More rings than Wilt won in his whole career in a 3 year span. More dominant than Wilt could ever dream of IN THE POSTSEASON.



Kareem's Finals in his prime ('71, '74, '80)

27/19/3 61% (win)
33/12/5 52%
33/14/3 55% (win)

2 championships, same as Wilt's career. Again, more dominant than Wilt's in the Finals.


How come Wilt was never this dominant in the Finals?

Instead of "pace", let's use actual FGAs per game instead...


In Wilt's 64 Finals, he averaged 24 FGAs per game...and scored 29.2 ppg...against Russell...in a post-season NBA that shot .420. In KAJ's '74 Finals, he averaged 26.4 FGAs per game, and 32.6 ppg...against Cowens (and was outplayed by him in game seven)...in a post-season NBA that shot .451.Give that Wilt 26.4 FGAs per game, and he would have been at 31-32 ppg.

Of course, let's use Wilt's 64-65 EDF's against Russell. In that seven game series, Chamberlain averaged 30.1 ppg on 20.5 FGAs per game, in a post-season NBA that shot .429. Now give Wilt 26.4 FGAs in that series, and his ppg would have shot up to 36-37 ppg.

Hakeem averaged 32.8 ppg against Shaq in the '95 Finals, in a series in which he averaged 29.0 FGAs per game. Give a 65 Wilt 29 FGAs and he would have averaged about 40 ppg.

Shaq's '00 was impressive. 38 ppg on 26 FGAs per game, in a post-season NBA that had an eFG% of .461, but give a 65 Wilt 26 FGAs per game, and he would have averaged 36-37 ppg. Of course, Shaq's ppg came against Smits and Davis, while Wilt's was against Russell.

No one in their right mind would ever rank the Smits-Davis combo as anywhere near the defensive force of a prime Russell.

And BTW, in the '80 Finals, let's include KAJ's contributions in the title-clinching game six to his totals. Now his ppg and rpg numbers drop to 27.8 ppg and 11.3 rpg. Kind of puts Magic's 22-11-9 .632 true TS% into a better perspective, doesn't it? And who knows what Magic would have averaged in that series had he been asked to play the way he did in that game six for the entire series.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kareem's Finals in his prime in 1971:
27/19/3 61% (win)

Wilt in his decline in 1972:

19/23/3 60 % (win) with 7,3 blocks per game - equally dominant as Kareem previous year
How is that equally impressive? Kareem averaged 8 more PPG and did it in 42 mpg compares to Wilt's 49.2 mpg. Kareem's AST% would be much higher, and their TRB% would be closer than the RPG. Also freethrow percentages: Kareem 76%, Wilt 54%. Kareem was much more efficient in scorer. And this was Wilt's best Finals performance btw.

[Deuce Bigalow]

But Chamberlain rebounded with that rate for 47 mpg (Howard is playing 39 mpg) and for his whole career, not his first 8 seasons. Howard is still 27 years old. And the majority of Wilt's post season games were after he turned 30. If you want to be objective you should take Wilt's first 8 seasons and compare it to Dwight's.
Bill Russell's three lowest and highest MPG postseasons:

'58 playoffs - 39.4 MPG/22.0 TRB%
'57 playoffs - 40.9 MPG/22.6 TRB%
'67 playoffs - 43.0 MPG/22.2 TRB%

'62 playoffs: 48.0 MPG/19.7 TRB%
'66 playoffs: 47.9 MPG/22.0 TRB%
'63 playoffs: 47.5 MPG/20.0 TRB%

Russell's lowest and highest MPG regular seasons:

'57 season: 35.3 MPG/21.9 TRB%
'68 season: 37.9 MPG/19.8 TRB%
'58 season: 38.3 MPG/21.3 TRB%

'62 season: 45.2 MPG/18.9 TRB%
'63 season: 44.9 MPG/19.9 TRB%
'64 season: 44.6 MPG/20.9 TRB%

There is a decrease when MPG is up. But when Russell played Dwight Howard type minutes, he had Dwight Howard type TRB%. I would use Wilt as an example but he always played nearly the entire game. Dwight has averaged between 32.6-38.3 MPG for his career and his TRB% was between 17.3-22.0, with 17.3% coming in his rookie year straight out of high school, excluding that it's 19.1%-22.0% at 34.0-38.3 MPG in 8 seasons.

[LAZERUSS]

Bill Russell's three lowest and highest MPG postseasons:

'58 playoffs - 39.4 MPG/22.0 TRB%
'57 playoffs - 40.9 MPG/22.6 TRB%
'67 playoffs - 43.0 MPG/22.2 TRB%

'62 playoffs: 48.0 MPG/19.7 TRB%
'66 playoffs: 47.9 MPG/22.0 TRB%
'63 playoffs: 47.5 MPG/20.0 TRB%

Russell's lowest and highest MPG regular seasons:

'57 season: 35.3 MPG/21.9 TRB%
'68 season: 37.9 MPG/19.8 TRB%
'58 season: 38.3 MPG/21.3 TRB%

'62 season: 45.2 MPG/18.9 TRB%
'63 season: 44.9 MPG/19.9 TRB%
'64 season: 44.6 MPG/20.9 TRB%

There is a decrease when MPG is up. But when Russell played Dwight Howard type minutes, he had Dwight Howard type TRB%. I would use Wilt as an example but he always played nearly the entire game. Dwight has averaged between 32.6-38.3 MPG for his career and his TRB% was between 17.3-22.0, with 17.3% coming in his rookie year straight out of high school, excluding that it's 19.1%-22.0% at 34.0-38.3 MPG in 8 seasons.


Now post the Russell-Wilt TRB% in all of their career and playoff H2H's.

And it looks like Russell's TRB% went up about 2% in less mpg. So, you can add about 3% in to Wilt's.

[LAZERUSS]

How is that equally impressive? Kareem averaged 8 more PPG and did it in 42 mpg compares to Wilt's 49.2 mpg. Kareem's AST% would be much higher, and their TRB% would be closer than the RPG. Also freethrow percentages: Kareem 76%, Wilt 54%. Kareem was much more efficient in scorer. And this was Wilt's best Finals performance btw.

Well, I could argue that a one-legged Wilt putting up the only 20-20 .600+ FG% Finals in NBA history, in a seven game series with a heavy-underdog team (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and a .625 FG%) with 4 apg would have to rank pretty high.

Or Wilt's '64 Finals, when he put up a 29-28 .517 FG% (and a true TS% of .509) against Russell in what very well could have been the greatest defensive season by a player in NBA history...in a post-season NBA that averaged 105.8 ppg on an eFG% of .420 (with a true TS% of .466) and against a Russell whom he held to 11-25 and a .386 eFG% (and a true TS% of .403.) So here was Chamberlain just trashing Russell and his swarming Celtics by way over the league margins, while holding Russell to well below them.

Furthermore, give either of those post-season Wilt's the 26.4 FGAs that KAJ took in his '74 Finals, and he would have scored as many ppg. All while being much more dominant on glass and defensively. The'64 Wilt averaged 24 FGAs and the '70 Wilt averaged 16 (geez at 26 FGAs he would have scored MORE than KAJ.)

Incidently, in KAJ's '80 Finals, in the five games in which he played, none other than Darryl Dawkins averaged 21.5 ppg, on a .517 FG% with a true eFG% of .538. Of course, in the clinching game six in which KAJ watched Magic dominate from his couch, Dawkins had by far his worst game of the series. In a season in which Dawkins averaged 14.7 ppg on .522 shooting.

[Deuce Bigalow]

You are blaming a prime scoring Wilt for not taking his team's to the Finals? How many Finals did Shaq or Kareem make without a legitimate top-10 GOAT player (Oscar, Magic, and Kobe)?
Kareem won a title with 32 year old Oscar, and made it to the Finals with a 35 year old last season Oscar. Shaq made it to the Finals in 1995 with who? And in 2000 won it with 21 year old Kobe, who started became the player he was the next year in 01. How many Finals did Wilt lose with a top 10 GOAT candidate Jerry West, who was the greatest SG ever at the time?

But, how about Wilt's '64 Finals? Keep in mind that Russell's Celtics had EIGHT HOFers, while Wilt's lone HOF teammate was rookie Nate Thurmond, who was playing part-time, out of position, and shooting .395 from the floor. Wilt's best teammate was journeyman Tom Meschery, who averaged 13.5 ppg. True, Boston won that series, 4-1, but the last two games were decided in the last few seconds, and by margins of 3 and 6 points.
What is this supposed to prove? Most playoff games are close.


Oh, and this was against a Russell in arguably the greatest defensive season in NBA history...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_season.html

In that series, all Wilt did was average 29.2 ppg, on 24 FGAs per game, 27.8 rpg, and on a .517 FG%...in a post-season NBA that averaged 105.8 ppg on an eFG% of .420. All while holding Russell to 11.2 ppg, 25.2 rpg, and an eFG% of .386.
Holding Russell down? Russell was the ultimate team player and he led his team to victory.


Or we could jump to the very next season. This, in Russell's second greatest defensive season. In that post-season, Wilt single-handedly carried his 40-40 Sixers to a game seven, one point loss against a 62-18 Celtic team in the peak of their dynasty.[/b]

In that series, Chamberlain averaged 30.1 ppg, on 20.5 FGA, 31.4 rpg, shot an eFG% of .555, and a true TS% of .560. In a post-season NBA that shot an eFG% of .429, and a true TS% of .478. In the meantime, Wilt held Russell to 15.6 ppg, 25.2 rpg, a .447 eFG%, and a true TS% of .450. As was almost always the case, Wilt blew away the post-season league averages in both eFG% and true TS%. He had a staggering true TS% margin over Russell of 11%!
Holding Russell to winning the game.


And find me a series in which Shaq, or KAJ, ever slaughtered another HOF center as badly as Wilt did in the '67 EDF's. He oustcored Russell, per game, by a 21.6 ppg to 10.2 ppg margin' he out-rebounded Russell, per game, by a 32.0 to 23.4 rpg margin; he outassisted Russell, per game, by a 10.0 to 6.0 apg margin; and he outshot Russell by an eFG% margin of .556 to .358. In a post-season NBA that had an eFG% of .424. Even with his poor FT shooting in that series, Wilt still hung a true TS% of .542...in a post-season NBA that shot .468. Meanwhile, Russell's true TS% was at .425. So, as you can see, Wilt once again blew away the post-season league eFG% and true TS%, all while holding his opposing center to way below them. Oh, and in that series, the known block totals favor Wilt by a 29-7 margin, as well.
Slaq's best series came against a non HOF big. He did average 33/16/5 on 57% against DPOY Mutombo. Hakeem destroyed prime David Robinson in the '95 WCF - 35/12/5 on 56% vs. 24/11/3 on 45%.


BTW, Wilt battled a peak Thurmond in the '67 Finals, and outscored him in five of their six H2H's; outrebounded him in five of their six h2h's; outassisted him five of their six h2h's; and outshot him by a eFG% margin of .560 to .343. In fact, Wilt faced Thurmond in the playoffs on three occasions, and outshot him by margins of .500 to .392; .550 to .398; and that .560 to .343 margin. Meanwhile a prime KAJ battled an aging Nate in three playoff series, and shot .486, .428, and .405 in the three of them. And in one of those, he was outscored and outshot by Thurmond.
Players like Thrumond and Russell were not scorers. And Russell's game was much more than his stats.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Well, I could argue that a one-legged Wilt putting up the only 20-20 .600+ FG% Finals in NBA history, in a seven game series with a heavy-underdog team (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and a .625 FG%) with 4 apg would have to rank pretty high.
If Kareem averaged 49.2 MPG (he averaged only 42) in '71, he would of had the only 30/20 60%FG+ Finals in history.

Or Wilt's '64 Finals, when he put up a 29-28 .517 FG% (and a true TS% of .509) against Russell in what very well could have been the greatest defensive season by a player in NBA history...in a post-season NBA that averaged 105.8 ppg on an eFG% of .420 (with a true TS% of .466) and against a Russell whom he held to 11-25 and a .386 eFG% (and a true TS% of .403.) So here was Chamberlain just trashing Russell and his swarming Celtics by way over the league margins, while holding Russell to well below them.
TRB% would be a better stat to look at.

Furthermore, give either of those post-season Wilt's the 26.4 FGAs that KAJ took in his '74 Finals, and he would have scored as many ppg. All while being much more dominant on glass and defensively.
I can say the same for Wilt's entire scoring prime. Give Kareem 39 FGAs like Wilt and Kareem EASILY averages 50+ppg since he can shoot 75%+ from the line unlike Wilt. Give Kareem all the 40+,50+ FGA games and he would have as many 60+ games as Wilt, ect.

Incidently, in KAJ's '80 Finals, in the five games in which he played, none other than Darryl Dawkins averaged 21.5 ppg, on a .517 FG% with a true eFG% of .538. Of course, in the clinching game six in which KAJ watched Magic dominate from his couch, Dawkins had by far his worst game of the series. In a season in which Dawkins averaged 14.7 ppg on .522 shooting.
Kareem's '80 Finals and postseason is greater than any of Wilt's career. Kareem was the leading scorer, rebounder, and blocker in the playoffs ON A CHAMPIONSHIP TEAM, with his scoring being above 30+ppg. Like I've said many times, WIlt was never the leading scorer on a championship team in the playoffs.

[boozehound]

smfh. Neither of these answers are right. Go watch a movie.

[LAZERUSS]

Kareem won a title with 32 year old Oscar, and made it to the Finals with a 35 year old last season Oscar. Shaq made it to the Finals in 1995 with who? And in 2000 won it with 21 year old Kobe, who started became the player he was the next year in 01. How many Finals did Wilt lose with a top 10 GOAT candidate Jerry West, who was the greatest SG ever at the time?

What is this supposed to prove? Most playoff games are close.


Holding Russell down? Russell was the ultimate team player and he led his team to victory.


Holding Russell to winning the game.


Slaq's best series came against a non HOF big. He did average 33/16/5 on 57% against DPOY Mutombo. Hakeem destroyed prime David Robinson in the '95 WCF - 35/12/5 on 56% vs. 24/11/3 on 45%.


Players like Thrumond and Russell were not scorers. And Russell's game was much more than his stats.

Russell had a Finals of 23.6 ppg and a Finals of a .702 FG%, as well as seasons of 18-19 ppg.
.
Thurmond had 20-20 seasons in his career.

Mutombo averaged 16 ppg on a .600 FG% against Shaq. Find ONE playoff series in Wilt's career in which a player ever shot that high a FG%. And there is no way the NBA would ever have allowed Wilt to just run over a player like Shaq was allowed to do against Mutombo.And Shaq had Finals in which he was badly outrebounded by a players as small as 6-7and 6-8.

Russell's overwhelmingly talented teams barely edged Wilt's far inferior teams in the majority of their playoff encounters, in series in which Chamberlain just crushed Russell. And when Wilt's teams somewhat neutralized Russell's decided advantage... it was a blowout series win for Wilt (in a series in which he just carpet bombed Russell in every aspect...which he almost always did BTW.)

Chamberlain had playoff series against Thurmond in which he shot .500, .550, and .560. A prime KAJ, and against an aging Nate could only shoot .486, .428 and .405.

You are a fan of true TS% (although you never bring up LEAGUE AVERAGE). Hakeem outshot D-Rob in that series by a true TS% margin of .581 to 536. Furthermore, in the rest of their 42 H2H games, Robinson was his complete equal. And since you bring up Wilt's w-l record against Russell...in those 42 games, Robinson went 30-12.

West played well in TWO playoff series with Chamberlain, but even in one of those, he completely puked all over himself in the clinching game seven defeat. And once again, Wilt NEVER had the teammates that Kareem did on his 80's Lakers nor did they ever come close to playing at their levels. Magic and Worthy, as well as the other teammates shooting well into the mid 50% range (and Worthy had three playoff runs of .591, 599, and .622 BTW.) West's HIGH playoff FG% with Wilt was .469. And Chamberlain had MANY playoff teams that shot in the low 40s, including his 67 title team (.428 without Wilt's FG%) and '72 title team (.414 without Wilt's FG%)..and even several in the 30's!

[LAZERUSS]

If Kareem averaged 49.2 MPG (he averaged only 42) in '71, he would of had the only 30/20 60%FG+ Finals in history.

TRB% would be a better stat to look at.

I can say the same for Wilt's entire scoring prime. Give Kareem 39 FGAs like Wilt and Kareem EASILY averages 50+ppg since he can shoot 75%+ from the line unlike Wilt. Give Kareem all the 40+,50+ FGA games and he would have as many 60+ games as Wilt, ect.

Kareem's '80 Finals and postseason is greater than any of Wilt's career. Kareem was the leading scorer, rebounder, and blocker in the playoffs ON A CHAMPIONSHIP TEAM, with his scoring being above 30+ppg. Like I've said many times, WIlt was never the leading scorer on a championship team in the playoffs.

We don't KNOW if a KAJ could even play 49 mpg, much less just how much his efficiency would have declined.

TRB% is just one stat. Chamberlain was outrebounding EVERY opposing PLAYER in his 29 post-season series, and in MANY by HUGE margins. Can you make the same claim for KAJ, Shaq, and Hakeem? Hell no. They had TEAMMATES who were outrebounding them.

KAJ averaged 33 FGAs against Wilt in the '72 playoffs...and only 33 ppg. And, in the games in which he took 33 or more shots in that series, he shot a horrific .414 from the field. He simply couldn't sustain any efficiency with those FGAs. And that was against an old Wilt who knocking the unblockable skyhook all over the gym...and holding KAJ to a .457 FG% (and only .414 in the last four pivotal games of that series.)

KAJ had his opportunity to score 40 ppg in '76 on a mediocre Laker team. He averaged 27.7 ppg on a .529 FG%. He declined considerably over the stats-padding KAJ of '72.

And no, KAJ did not average a TRUE 30 ppg in the '80 Finals. He missed the most important game of that series, and it was MAGIC who carried them to a title. Add KAJ's contributions in that game six, and was a 28-11 player who was nowhere near as efficient as MAGIC.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Russell had a Finals of 23.6 ppg and a Finals of a .702 FG%, as well as seasons of 18-19 ppg.
.
Thurmond had 20-20 seasons in his career.

Mutombo averaged 16 ppg on a .600 FG% against Shaq. Find ONE playoff series in Wilt's career in which a player ever shot that high a FG%. And there is no way the NBA would ever have allowed Wilt to just run over a player like Shaq was allowed to do against Mutombo.And Shaq had Finals in which he was badly outrebounded by a players as small as 6-7and 6-8.

Russell's overwhelmingly talented teams barely edged Wilt's far inferior teams in the majority of their playoff encounters, in series in which Chamberlain just crushed Russell. And when Wilt's teams somewhat neutralized Russell's decided advantage... it was a blowout series win for Wilt (in a series in which he just carpet bombed Russell in every aspect...which he almost always did BTW.)

Chamberlain had playoff series against Thurmond in which he shot .500, .550, and .560. A prime KAJ, and against an aging Nate could only shoot .486, .428 and .405.

You are a fan of true TS% (although you never bring up LEAGUE AVERAGE). Hakeem outshot D-Rob in that series by a true TS% margin of .581 to 536. Furthermore, in the rest of their 42 H2H games, Robinson was his complete equal. And since you bring up Wilt's w-l record against Russell...in those 42 games, Robinson went 30-12.

West played well in TWO playoff series with Chamberlain, but even in one of those, he completely puked all over himself in the clinching game seven defeat. And once again, Wilt NEVER had the teammates that Kareem did on his 80's Lakers nor did they ever come close to playing at their levels. Magic and Worthy, as well as the other teammates shooting well into the mid 50% range (and Worthy had three playoff runs of .591, 599, and .622 BTW.) West's HIGH playoff FG% with Wilt was .469. And Chamberlain had MANY playoff teams that shot in the low 40s, including his 67 title team (.428 without Wilt's FG%) and '72 title team (.414 without Wilt's FG%)..and even several in the 30's!
West puked himself? He averaged 31ppg/8apg for the series and had 28/6/5 on 9/19FG,10/12FT in game 7. Wilt shot 1/11 from the freethrow line in that game 7, but it was West that "puked all over himself"? Btw, Wilt's defense was at fault as well as West's in the first half.

Walt Frazier, Bill Bradley and Dave DeBusschere hit 15 of their first 21 shots as New York built a 27-point halftime lead, 69-42.

[LAZERUSS]

West puked himself? He averaged 31ppg/8apg for the series and had 28/6/5 on 9/19FG,10/12FT in game 7. Wilt shot 1/11 from the freethrow line in that game 7, but it was West that "puked all over himself"? Btw, Wilt's defense was at fault as well as West's in the first half.

West was responsible for guarding Frazier in that game who happened to score 36 points. Who was Wilt's main opposing player..a Reed who played nearly the entire first half and scored 4 points with 3 rebounds, on 2-5 shooting.

And West was being picked clean by Frazier numerous times before he could even get the ball past half court.


What about West in '71? Oh wait, didn't even play in the post-season.

How about West in '72? Shot .376 from the field in the entire playoffs, and was completely shellacked by Frazier in the Finals (and shot .325 from the floor)

'73? Shot .445 in the post-season, was once again dominated by Frazier in the Finals, and in the clinching game five loss, while Wilt was putting up a 23-21 9-16 game, it was West shooting 5-17 from the field.

So much for "Mr. Clutch."

And find me a post-season in which Wilt had teammates shooting as efficiently as Magic, Wilkes, Nixon, and especially Worthy. You won't. In fact, he had the polar opposite. Teammates who were shooting .383, or .354, or .352, or .352, or even .336 in his post-seasons.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Willis Reed dominated Wilt in the Finals before he got injured.

1970 Finals
Gm 1: 37/16/5 on 16/30 FG
Gm 2: 29/15/5 on 12/29 FG (Wilt 9/20 FG)
Gm 3: 38/17/3 on 17/30 FG
Gm 4: 23/12/2 on 10/23 FG

In the 1973 Finals, Reed held Wilt to 52.4 FG% when he averaged 72.7 FG% for the season, a 20.3 FG% drop, Wilt also shot 36.8% from the freethrow line (51.0% for the season) The Big Dipper!

Reed won 2 Championships and 2 FMVPs over Wilt.

[Deuce Bigalow]

West was responsible for guarding Frazier in that game who happened to score 36 points. Who was Wilt's main opposing player..a Reed who played nearly the entire first half and scored 4 points with 3 rebounds, on 2-5 shooting.

And West was being picked clean by Frazier numerous times before he could even get the ball past half court.


What about West in '71? Oh wait, didn't even play in the post-season.

How about West in '72? Shot .376 from the field in the entire playoffs, and was completely shellacked by Frazier in the Finals (and shot .325 from the floor)

'73? Shot .445 in the post-season, was once again dominated by Frazier in the Finals, and in the clinching game five loss, while Wilt was putting up a 23-21 9-16 game, it was West shooting 5-17 from the field.

So much for "Mr. Clutch."

And find me a post-season in which Wilt had teammates shooting as efficiently as Magic, Wilkes, Nixon, and especially Worthy. You won't. In fact, he had the polar opposite. Teammates who were shooting .383, or .354, or .352, or .352, or even .336 in his post-seasons.
Wilt's freethrow shooting numbers in those Finals...

1970 Finals
23/67 (34.3%) :roll:
West? 75/90 (83.3%) :applause:

1973 Finals
14/38 (36.8%) :roll:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-q3weNyxJ3Vo/URgqZiUBfBI/AAAAAAAAAAs/QlI83pT_2mE/s1600/10-11-2012-dwight-howard-laughing-4_3_r536_c534.jpg

[LAZERUSS]

Willis Reed dominated Wilt in the Finals before he got injured.

1970 Finals
Gm 1: 37/16/5 on 16/30 FG
Gm 2: 29/15/5 on 12/29 FG (Wilt 9/20 FG)
Gm 3: 38/17/3 on 17/30 FG
Gm 4: 23/12/2 on 10/23 FG

In the 1973 Finals, Reed held Wilt to 52.4 FG% when he averaged 72.7 FG% for the season, a 20.3 FG% drop, Wilt also shot 36.8% from the freethrow line (51.0% for the season) The Big Dipper!

Reed won 2 Championships and 2 FMVPs over Wilt.

Thanks for posting Wilt's numbers in those first four games.

Game 1: 17/24/5 on 8/14 FG
Game 2: 19/24/2 on 9/20 FG
Game 3: 21/26/4 on 7/10 FG
Game 4: 18/25/7 on 7/13 FG

The facts were, this was a Chamberlain who had shredded his knee and had had major knee surgery just four months before. Virtually every medical opinion at the time ranged from missing a year, to perhaps never playing again (keep in mind that the 33 year old Wilt was around 300 lbs at the time.)

And no, the MVP Reed, in his greatest season, did not "dominate" Wilt in those first four games. In fact, Chamberlain easily outplayed Reed in games two and four, and his block of a Reed shot late in game two sent the game into OT, in which LA won.

The Knicks were 60-22, had HCA, and were solid favorites going into this series against a 48-34 Laker team that was old and injury-riddled. And, NY had just wiped out the 56-26 Bucks in the ECF's 4-1, and in the clinching game five win in that series, Reed destroyed KAJ en route to leading the Knicks to a 132-96 over KAJ's Bucks (KAJ would continue to struggle in the biggest games of his career in the entire decade of the 70's, and even into the 80's BTW.)

As a sidenote, just the season before, the Knicks traded away Bellamy for DeBusschere, and moved Reed to center. In the three H2H games between a healthy Wilt and a prime Reed were completely dominated by WILT. He outscored Reed by a 79-49 margin in those three games, including a 31-15 beatdown late in the season. Of course, a prime scoring Chamberlain just annihilated Reed earlier in their careers. In the 63-64 season, and in nine h2h games, Chamberlain averaged, get this... 40.1 ppg against Reed, including outscoring him by margins of 41-9, 52-23, and a staggering 58-28. And in the 67-68 first round of the playoffs, while Wilt was basically defending Bellamy, Chamberlain led both teams in scoring, rebounding, FG%, and assists in that series, (and he outshot a Bellamy, who had shot .541 from the field during the regular season, by a .584 to .421 margin BTW.)

In any case, a one-legged Wilt, at way less than 100% (just watch footage of game five and game seven) with no lift, and running stiff-legged, basically battled a prime Reed, in his greatest season, to a draw in those first four games. And, BTW, the series was tied at 2-2. Furthermore, in game five, Wilt was outplaying Reed, and the Lakers were ahead by 10 points, when Reed went down with his injury.

As another sidenote, Reed's injury was similar to the one that Wilt sustained going into the EDF's against Boston just the year before, and Wilt played every minute of that series (and put up a 23-25 series BTW.)

As for Reed winning the FMVP in both series: In the last three pivotal games of the 70's Finals, Wilt outscored Reed by a 71-11 margin; outrebounded him by a 70-3 margin; and outshot him from the field by a 39-55 to 4-10 margin. Granted, Reed did not play in game six, but the those were the facts. Reed was perhaps the least deserving FMVP in history. And what a slap in the face of Frazier, who just slaughtered West in that game seven, en route to 36 points (and whatever the real number of assists were...he was given credit for 19.) Wilt was the ONLY Laker to play well in that game seven (a 21-24 game on 10-16 shooting.)

In the '73 Finals, neither Reed nor Wilt played particularly well. Reed averaged a 16-9-3 on a .493 FG%, while Chamberlain averaged a 12-19-4 on a .525 FG%. But, here again, in the clinching game five loss, Chamberlain easily outplayed Reed, outscoring him by a 23-18 margin, and outrebounding him, 21-12. And while Wilt was shooting 9-16 from the field, "Mr. Clutch" West was mis-firing to the tune of 5-17. And, just as in game seven of the '70 Finals, Frazier just mopped the floor with West in the biggest game of the series. In any case, someone had to win the FMVP in '73, and it could have been Reed, Frazier, DeBusschere (who averaged a 16-12), or even Bradley, who led the Knicks in scoring at 19 ppg. BUT, Reed did not outplay Wilt in that series.

And yet another sidenote, I believe Julizaver could only find three games, in the 72 career H2H's between them, in which Reed outrebounded Wilt. And we know that Wilt held an 11-0 margin the Finals against Reed (and basically doubled him.) Granted, he probably couldn't get that info for all of those matchups, but here again, it was obvious that Reed, who was a very good rebounder, was yet another HOF center whom Wilt just trashed on the glass.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt's freethrow shooting numbers in those Finals...

1970 Finals
23/67 (34.3%) :roll:
West? 75/90 (83.3%) :applause:

1973 Finals
14/38 (36.8%) :roll:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-q3weNyxJ3Vo/URgqZiUBfBI/AAAAAAAAAAs/QlI83pT_2mE/s1600/10-11-2012-dwight-howard-laughing-4_3_r536_c534.jpg

West's FT% in the '73 Finals. 67.6%


Two can play that game.

'70 Finals:

West with 24 rebounds in the Finals.
Wilt with 169.

'73 Finals:

West with 16 rebounds.
Wilt with 93


'70 Finals:

West's FG% ... 45.0%
Wilt's FG% ... 62.5%

'70 Finals:

West's true TS% ... 53.4%
Wilt's true TS%... 56.0%

'73 Finals:

West's FG% ... 44.2%
Wilt's FG% ... 52.5%

[Deuce Bigalow]

West's FT% in the '73 Finals. 67.6%


Two can play that game.

'70 Finals:

West with 24 rebounds in the Finals.
Wilt with 169.

'73 Finals:

West with 16 rebounds.
Wilt with 93


'70 Finals:

West's FG% ... 45.0%
Wilt's FG% ... 62.5%

'70 Finals:

West's true TS% ... 53.4%
Wilt's true TS%... 56.0%

'73 Finals:

West's FG% ... 44.2%
Wilt's FG% ... 52.5%
Sorry but 34-36% shooting from the freethrow line is what the "Big playoff Dipper" shot and the Lakers lost. Nothing can change those facts.

[LAZERUSS]

Sorry but 34-36% shooting from the freethrow line is what the "Big playoff Dipper" shot and the Lakers lost. Nothing can change those facts.

Hmmm...so players like Bird, KAJ and Kobe, with their AWFUL FG% shooting in their biggest games are given free pass, while a Wilt who blew away his opposing centers in production, dominated the glass, shutdown the lane and was far more efficient from the field in HIS biggest games, and watched in horror as his teammates repeatedly puked all over the floor in their biggest games...gets full blame.

BTW, you never bring up the FACT that Wilt's IMPACT from the LINE kept his team in those playoff series, either. His teams routinely led the post-season in FTAs and MADE...because of WILT.

In the two Finals that you always bring up ('69 and '70), the Lakers shot and MADE FAR more FTs than their opponents.


But here again, Bird, KAJ, and especially Kobe, were simply ghastly from the floor in many of their Finals biggest series and games. Their inept FG%'s were considerably more damaging than Wilt's poor FT shooting. But, all three of them had teammates who contributed much more.

Yes, Wilt had a West in TWO Finals, in which his FG%'s were still below average (and in one game seven, he was so thoroughly dominated by Frazier that his teammates, other than Wilt, simply gave up.) But you never mention Wests horrific shooting in '72and '73 (or the fact that he missed the '71 playoffs entirely.) Wilt also had to endure Elgin Baylor single-handedly costing his '69 Lakers three games (shooting 2-12, 2-14, and 8-22 from the floor.) A Baylor who shot .385 from the field in that post-season, and whose incompetent coach allowed him to take the second most FGAs in the playoffs.

And once again...Wilt's teammates, year-after-year, shot FAR below the league norm in terms of FG%. It was simply amazing that because of Wilt's IMPACT, that he could lead team's to titles in post-seasons in which his teammates collectively shot 428 and even .414. Or that he could get them to a game seven in the EDF's, two point loss (against a VASTLY superior team), when they collectively shot .354 in the post-season. Or Wilt, with virtually no help at all, taking a 40-40 team to a game seven , one point loss, against a 62-18 Celtic team at the peak of it's dynasty...and with perhaps the most dominating playoff performance of all-time (a 30-31.555 FG% series... in a post-season that shot .429.)


Where were Wilt's "Magics", "Worthy's" "McHales", "Maxwell's" and "Gasol's"? Players who were scoring 20 ppg and on .560 to .620 FG%'s. Instead Wilt's best teammates were consistently shooting way below the league average. And while players like Hakeem, KAJ, Bird, and Kobe had teammates who led their teams in Finals rebounding, find me a Finals' series in which a Chamberlain teammate was even remotely close to him (and of course, Wilt was the leading rebounder in all 29 of his post-season series.)

Nor did Chamberlain ever have teammates step up in the post-season like Hakeem's '95 Rockets. His teammates had en eFG% and TS% way over the post-season league average (while Hakeem was below it), and despite Shaq just pounding Hakeem into submission in that series, his teammates so thoroughly blew up Shaq's that they won despite Shaq's overwhelming play.

Find me the game seven's in which Bird, Kobe, and KAJ won, when their teammates collectively shot .333 ('68 EDF's), .360 ('69 Finals.)

KAJ, Bird, and Kobe would never have come close to winning a title with the inept play that Wilt's teammates gave him post-season-after-post-season.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Hmmm...so players like Bird, KAJ and Kobe, with their AWFUL FG% shooting in their biggest games are given free pass, while a Wilt who blew away his opposing centers in production, dominated the glass, shutdown the lane and was far more efficient from the field in HIS biggest games, and watched in horror as his teammates repeatedly puked all over the floor in their biggest games...gets full blame.

BTW, you never bring up the FACT that Wilt's IMPACT from the LINE kept his team in those playoff series, either. His teams routinely led the post-season in FTAs and MADE...because of WILT.

In the two Finals that you always bring up ('69 and '70), the Lakers shot and MADE FAR more FTs than their opponents.


But here again, Bird, KAJ, and especially Kobe, were simply ghastly from the floor in many of their Finals biggest series and games. Their inept FG%'s were considerably more damaging than Wilt's poor FT shooting. But, all three of them had teammates who contributed much more.

Yes, Wilt had a West in TWO Finals, in which his FG%'s were still below average (and in one game seven, he was so thoroughly dominated by Frazier that his teammates, other than Wilt, simply gave up.) But you never mention Wests horrific shooting in '72and '73 (or the fact that he missed the '71 playoffs entirely.) Wilt also had to endure Elgin Baylor single-handedly costing his '69 Lakers three games (shooting 2-12, 2-14, and 8-22 from the floor.) A Baylor who shot .385 from the field in that post-season, and whose incompetent coach allowed him to take the second most FGAs in the playoffs.

And once again...Wilt's teammates, year-after-year, shot FAR below the league norm in terms of FG%. It was simply amazing that because of Wilt's IMPACT, that he could lead team's to titles in post-seasons in which his teammates collectively shot 428 and even .414. Or that he could get them to a game seven in the EDF's, two point loss (against a VASTLY superior team), when they collectively shot .354 in the post-season. Or Wilt, with virtually no help at all, taking a 40-40 team to a game seven , one point loss, against a 62-18 Celtic team at the peak of it's dynasty...and with perhaps the most dominating playoff performance of all-time (a 30-31.555 FG% series... in a post-season that shot .429.)


Where were Wilt's "Magics", "Worthy's" "McHales", "Maxwell's" and "Gasol's"? Players who were scoring 20 ppg and on .560 to .620 FG%'s. Instead Wilt's best teammates were consistently shooting way below the league average. And while players like Hakeem, KAJ, Bird, and Kobe had teammates who led their teams in Finals rebounding, find me a Finals' series in which a Chamberlain teammate was even remotely close to him (and of course, Wilt was the leading rebounder in all 29 of his post-season series.)

Nor did Chamberlain ever have teammates step up in the post-season like Hakeem's '95 Rockets. His teammates had en eFG% and TS% way over the post-season league average (while Hakeem was below it), and despite Shaq just pounding Hakeem into submission in that series, his teammates so thoroughly blew up Shaq's that they won despite Shaq's overwhelming play.

Find me the game seven's in which Bird, Kobe, and KAJ won, when their teammates collectively shot .333 ('68 EDF's), .360 ('69 Finals.)

KAJ, Bird, and Kobe would never have come close to winning a title with the inept play that Wilt's teammates gave him post-season-after-post-season.
Wilt cost the Lakers the 69 Finals with his horrible game 4. And for the love of God no Wilt does not have a postive impact on the line. He was the worst freethrow shooter in NBA history. He shot 37% in the Finals in his career and 45% in his playoff career. Taking a lot of FTAs does not mean impact on the line. You honestly think Dwight Howard has a positive impact on the line? His team always is up there for the most FTAs in the league, and nearly every game his team takes more freethrows than the other team.

You always post Wilt's FG% but always ignore his awful FT%. 2/11 FT in a 1 point loss in game 4, 4-13 FT in a 2 point loss in game 7. Can't blame teammates for that.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Find me the game seven's in which Bird, Kobe, and KAJ won, when their teammates collectively shot .333 ('68 EDF's), .360 ('69 Finals.)

KAJ, Bird, and Kobe would never have come close to winning a title with the inept play that Wilt's teammates gave him post-season-after-post-season.
Yeah I'm sure Shaq, KAJ, Russell, and Hakeem would lose in the NBA Finals when their teammate guard averaged 38/5/8...NOT

I'm sure Shaq, KAJ, Russell, and Hakeem would lose when their teammate guard averaged 31/4/8 on 46%(54-55 TS%) in BACK TO BACK Postseasons...NOT

KAJ, Russell, and Hakeem won all their titles without a teammate putting up those numbers.

Shaq won 2 titles without a teammate averaging those numbers, and won another 2 titles with a teammate averaging similar numbers

Wilt? 0/2

[Deuce Bigalow]

1 title before Magic's era. "Kareem era" doesn't exist. Change it to "Cowens era" or "Dr.J era".
Maybe you are the more reasonable Wilt fan than jlauber, so what is your opinion on why he lost 4 NBA Finals? Specially the '69 and '70 Finals? I don't know how one can blame Baylor and West for the losses like jlauber does.