What year do you think Dirk Werner Nowitzki will actually retire?

[ispin69]

:confusedshrug:

[ispin69]

Nowitzki has led the Mavericks to 12 consecutive NBA Playoffs (2001

[get these NETS]

same reason Admiral isn't

unguardable player just came up short way too many times in clutch

top ten is reserved for the elite of the elite

dirk had an alltime run one year...and flamed out just abut every other year


he's a full notch above the admiral because he lead his team to a ring as alpha wolf but not in same league as magics, birds, jordans, tims

[Mass Debator]

At the end of year 2015 unless he wins a title that year...then it's 2016.

[DirkNowitzki41]

I say he retires in 2016. Same with Kobe and Duncan.


same reason Admiral isn't

unguardable player just came up short way too many times in clutch

top ten is reserved for the elite of the elite

dirk had an alltime run one year...and flamed out just abut every other year


he's a full notch above the admiral because he lead his team to a ring as alpha wolf but not in same league as magics, birds, jordans, tims

Came up short way too many times... as in once? or twice?

He only played bad in the 07 series vs Warriors...

Flamed out every other year? Wow are you kidding me? Dirk has played at a very high level in the playoffs.. he just never had an elite cast around him. Can't win a ring on your own

[DMAVS41]

I'd say 2 more years after this one seems likely...although I hope the Mavs cans somehow build a contender so he stays longer

And total :facepalm to the moron above claiming Dirk's playoff play keeps him out of elite ranking.

Yep...I guess putting up 26/10/3 on some of the best overall efficiency ever while leading his teams to over-achieve more often than under-achieving counts as coming up short in the playoffs.

I can't believe people still buy into that garbage

Not to mention Dirk's horrendous Warriors series comes with just about every asterisk known...

[Fresh Kid]

2017.

[Papaya Petee]

I'd say 2 more years after this one seems likely...although I hope the Mavs cans somehow build a contender so he stays longer

And total :facepalm to the moron above claiming Dirk's playoff play keeps him out of elite ranking.

Yep...I guess putting up 26/10/3 on some of the best overall efficiency ever while leading his teams to over-achieve more often than under-achieving counts as coming up short in the playoffs.

I can't believe people still buy into that garbage

Not to mention Dirk's horrendous Warriors series comes with just about every asterisk known...

People just can't comprehend how competitive playoffs are, and how many super talented players and teams give it their all to win a championship. Dirk has been really good come playoff time, and won a championship, so to label him an underachiever or a choker in the playoffs is absurd.

[Eric Cartman]

Was this thread created just to add his middle name?

[kenny817]

same reason Admiral isn't

unguardable player just came up short way too many times in clutch
top ten is reserved for the elite of the elite

dirk had an alltime run one year...and flamed out just abut every other year


he's a full notch above the admiral because he lead his team to a ring as alpha wolf but not in same league as magics, birds, jordans, tims

You mean ONE series in 2007?

You people here are pathetic

[get these NETS]

let's not revise history, fellas

part of it was the coaching of nelly, part of it was offensive pace/lack of defense of team but if yu're going to call Dirk a great player...part of the blame for Mavs losing all those times in playoffs and not making WCF HAS to be put on Dirk's shoulders


we're to forget that he played with Nash for some of the playoff exits?

get off the bull...

Dirk is a great player...he had a(n) historic run to the ring that year....first true international player(no US college) to get MVP.....just not a top tier all time great

[Ancient Legend]

[QUOTE=ispin69]Nowitzki has led the Mavericks to 12 consecutive NBA Playoffs (2001

[Brook(lyn)Lopez]

[QUOTE=ispin69]Nowitzki has led the Mavericks to 12 consecutive NBA Playoffs (2001

[DMAVS41]

Lol, nice arbitrary stats bro. How about you find more obscure statistic to prop up your boy because he doesn't have the post season resume to sniff top 20 all time.

What?

And guys like Malone, KG, Barkley do?

Dirk's post season resume includes winning a title without an all nba teammate...rare. Averaging 26/10/3 on 58.4% TS...which is good for only 4 players in NBA history hitting such numbers for a career. Over-achieving more than he underachieved. A finals MVP. And doing it all with never really having a legit 2nd guy the way virtually every title team ever has had. One of the best elimination and game 7 player ever...etc.

Doesn't sniff the top 20 on resume? I'd love to see your top 20...

[DMAVS41]

let's not revise history, fellas

part of it was the coaching of nelly, part of it was offensive pace/lack of defense of team but if yu're going to call Dirk a great player...part of the blame for Mavs losing all those times in playoffs and not making WCF HAS to be put on Dirk's shoulders


we're to forget that he played with Nash for some of the playoff exits?

get off the bull...

Dirk is a great player...he had a(n) historic run to the ring that year....first true international player(no US college) to get MVP.....just not a top tier all time great

How do you define top tier? Like top 8 all time? Then no, Dirk isn't top 8.

But really after the top 10 or so...Dirk could be right there with anyone. It's just BS perceptions and ignorance that people hold on to.

[miles berg]

your boy because he doesn't have the post season resume to sniff top 20 all time.

Lol what?

He is easily top 20 all time, he has a legit shot at top 15 if he can extend his career this year + 3 more years which, reading between the lines, seems to be his plan.

[DMAVS41]

Lol what?

He is easily top 20 all time, he has a legit shot at top 15 if he can extend his career this year + 3 more years which, reading between the lines, seems to be his plan.


He won't have any arguments or evidence.

No doubt he's including KG in his top 20. Can't wait to hear how a 19/11/4 52% TS player with years of playoff irrelevance and no finals mvp somehow has a resume deserving of top 20 all time.

[get these NETS]

How do you define top tier? Like top 8 all time? Then no, Dirk isn't top 8.

But really after the top 10 or so...Dirk could be right there with anyone. It's just BS perceptions and ignorance that people hold on to.



Outside of the fact that you like Dirk and maybe identify with him......can't see the argument for this . You haven't made the case and neither has this thread.

Just as an objective basketball fan who used to debate....I could put together better argument for Dirk than dudes who claim to be his fans

but the argument AGAINST him is

what position does he actually play....sf?pf?center?


is he more accomplished than the top alltime 3 sfs? 3 pfs? 3 centers?

1st seed has lost to 8 seed before...sonics to nuggets and then heat to knicks.....but never has the mvp of the league been on 1 seed and lost to 8...until dirk's mavs got ousted by warriors


what were dirk's numbers during the epic collapse to heat in finals? with his height, range and footwork..I can't think of any player in league history who could shut him down....what were his stats in the games that Miami won?

[DirkNowitzki41]

Lol, nice arbitrary stats bro. How about you find more obscure statistic to prop up your boy because he doesn't have the post season resume to sniff top 20 all time.

:oldlol: He obviously is top 20, dumbass.

It's crazy how Dirk still has these clueless haters. He had one bad series and thats all people see. He has played amazing in every other post season

[Just2McFly]

He is top 20 to me, but easily top 15 with three more years? I'm not sure.

[kentatm]

we're to forget that he played with Nash for some of the playoff exits?



the same Nash who was constantly getting shredded by Bibby and Tony Parker in the playoffs?

the same guy that was obviously worn down at the end of the season causing his play to degrade multiple times?

the same guy that so mediocre in his last Mavs series that they decided to let him walk and everyone at the time called a good move b/c the Suns were vastly overpaying him?

Yea, I remember him.

Nash for the Mavs played nowhere near the level he did with the Suns and that was mostly due to Nash himself not being fully dedicated to the game at the time. He has openly admitted as much.

[Eric Cartman]

they decided to let him walk and everyone at the time called a good move

:lol terrible move

hindsight is a bitch tho

[get these NETS]

the same Nash who was constantly getting shredded by Bibby and Tony Parker in the playoffs?

the same guy that was obviously worn down at the end of the season causing his play to degrade multiple times?

the same guy that so mediocre in his last Mavs series that they decided to let him walk and everyone at the time called a good move b/c the Suns were vastly overpaying him?

Yea, I remember him.

Nash for the Mavs played nowhere near the level he did with the Suns and that was mostly due to Nash himself not being fully dedicated to the game at the time. He has openly admitted as much.

Steve Nash as a Maverick

all nba 3rd team 2002
all nba 3rd team 2003

went to suns in 2004


selected one of the top 6 guards in the league twice during his tenure with the Mavs.....and assuming that the list of guards on all nba was 2 guard heavy....probably 2nd point guard )



yeah, THAT Steve Nash




I'm bowling.............set up em and I'll knock them down

[kentatm]

Steve Nash as a Maverick

all nba 3rd team 2002
all nba 3rd team 2003

went to suns in 2004


selected one of the top 6 guards in the league twice during his tenure with the Mavs.....and assuming that the list of guards on all nba was 2 guard heavy....probably 2nd point guard )



yeah, THAT Steve Nash




I'm bowling.............set up em and I'll knock them down

:biggums: :facepalm :rolleyes:


how about actually read what I wrote next time?

[DMAVS41]

Outside of the fact that you like Dirk and maybe identify with him......can't see the argument for this . You haven't made the case and neither has this thread.

Just as an objective basketball fan who used to debate....I could put together better argument for Dirk than dudes who claim to be his fans

but the argument AGAINST him is

what position does he actually play....sf?pf?center?


is he more accomplished than the top alltime 3 sfs? 3 pfs? 3 centers?

1st seed has lost to 8 seed before...sonics to nuggets and then heat to knicks.....but never has the mvp of the league been on 1 seed and lost to 8...until dirk's mavs got ousted by warriors


what were dirk's numbers during the epic collapse to heat in finals? with his height, range and footwork..I can't think of any player in league history who could shut him down....what were his stats in the games that Miami won?

Why does it matter his position? We rank players regardless of position...we rank them on how good they were/are.

But anyway, Dirk is a pf and only Duncan is for sure better than him in the all time rankings. Dirk could easily go down as the 2nd best pf to date when he retires.

So if a player plays one poor series...they can't be top 20 all time?

Please list your top 20 players of all time.

[DMAVS41]

Steve Nash as a Maverick

all nba 3rd team 2002
all nba 3rd team 2003

went to suns in 2004


selected one of the top 6 guards in the league twice during his tenure with the Mavs.....and assuming that the list of guards on all nba was 2 guard heavy....probably 2nd point guard )



yeah, THAT Steve Nash




I'm bowling.............set up em and I'll knock them down

Nash was good on the Mavs. There were a few problems though;

1. The game was so much more physcial back then and it didn't allow Nash to do what he would ultimately do on the Suns. The rules changes following the 04 season helped nobody more than Nash. It allowed him to play his style much more easily and the big thing was that the game was no longer nearly as hard on his body because of the soft rules. Can't ignore this...it's huge.

2. As referenced above, Nash was not fully dedicated to his health and the game

3. Nash wore down by the playoffs virtually every year


But even then. Take a look at what the Mavs did those years;

02 - Dominated a prime KG led wolves team that most thought were only slight underdogs to win that series. In large part because KG was going to shut down Dirk....ROFL. Then the Mavs lost to the 02 Kings. The 02 Mavs would have had no business beating the 02 Kings...not even haters could say that series was anything out of the ordinary

03 - Got to the WCF...on 2 great game 7's by Dirk mind you. Won game 1 in San Antonio...Dirk got hurt in game 3. Mavs lost in 6.

04 - Nash was hurt/terrible by the time of the playoffs. Nash put up 14 ppg on 46% TS in the playoffs in 04...again, ROFL

That's it. That is the Nash/Dirk era. Lost to clear cut better team in 02. Dirk got hurt in the WCF in 03. Nash was hurt by the playoffs in 04. That's it...well, they upset the Jazz in 01 together, but Nash wasn't elite yet.

Please educate yourself before you speak.

[Scholar]

I hope he plays for a longer time if he can still be decent at it, but I feel he'll be retiring some time after the 2016-17 season.

[get these NETS]

:biggums: :facepalm :rolleyes:


how about actually read what I wrote next time?

posted what you wrote and countered with the fact that Nash made all nba 3rd team twice...and assuming that the top four spots for guards were filled with shooting guards....nash was considered among the top two point guards in the game .....so your excuse about Nash not being mvp level Nash yet is countered by the fact that he WAS good enough to make all nba

outside of shaq kobe......don't know if you'd find two teammates who both made all nba in those 2 years besides nash and dirk
clear enough?

NEXT

[kentatm]

posted what you wrote and countered with the fact that Nash made all nba 3rd team twice...and assuming that the top four spots for guards were filled with shooting guards....nash was considered among the top two point guards in the game .....so your excuse about Nash not being mvp level Nash yet is countered by the fact that he WAS good enough to make all nba

outside of shaq kobe......don't know if you'd find two teammates who both made all nba in those 2 years besides nash and dirk
clear enough?

NEXT


:roll: once again you clearly didnt read what I wrote.

[Brook(lyn)Lopez]

El oh El at Mavs fans overrating Dirk.
He's no higher then #22 all time and no lower than 33# all time.
He has no case to crack the top 20 unless he goes deep into the playoffs or wins a ring in the next 3 years. (not happening)
Must be something in the water in Dallas. Must of you dumbasses happen to think Tony Romo is a top quarterback as well.

[branslowski]

:oldlol: He obviously is top 20, dumbass.

It's crazy how Dirk still has these clueless haters. He had one bad series and thats all people see. He has played amazing in every other post season

Also choked a 2-0 Finals series lead including being up by double digits in the 4th quarter of game 3 and choking it away. Loss.

But besides that, he's easily top 20 for. I personally think he's the most offensively skilled PF in league history. His fadeaway is legendary might I add. Having only 1 title and 1 finals MVP keeps him from top 15 ofcource, but his 1 titles is definitely the strongest out of 1 title winners next to Chauncey Billups.

He'll prob retire in 2016

[get these NETS]

Nash was good on the Mavs. There were a few problems though;

1. The game was so much more physcial back then and it didn't allow Nash to do what he would ultimately do on the Suns. The rules changes following the 04 season helped nobody more than Nash. It allowed him to play his style much more easily and the big thing was that the game was no longer nearly as hard on his body because of the soft rules. Can't ignore this...it's huge.

2. As referenced above, Nash was not fully dedicated to his health and the game

3. Nash wore down by the playoffs virtually every year


But even then. Take a look at what the Mavs did those years;

02 - Dominated a prime KG led wolves team that most thought were only slight underdogs to win that series. In large part because KG was going to shut down Dirk....ROFL. Then the Mavs lost to the 02 Kings. The 02 Mavs would have had no business beating the 02 Kings...not even haters could say that series was anything out of the ordinary

03 - Got to the WCF...on 2 great game 7's by Dirk mind you. Won game 1 in San Antonio...Dirk got hurt in game 3. Mavs lost in 6.

04 - Nash was hurt/terrible by the time of the playoffs. Nash put up 14 ppg on 46% TS in the playoffs in 04...again, ROFL

That's it. That is the Nash/Dirk era. Lost to clear cut better team in 02. Dirk got hurt in the WCF in 03. Nash was hurt by the playoffs in 04. That's it...well, they upset the Jazz in 01 together, but Nash wasn't elite yet.

Please educate yourself before you speak.

very detailed response

1-3 I don't buy because we're talking about a young first round pick
not a middle aged or overweight journeyman

and as mentioned before....2 x all nba pick



now craft a set of excuses for the post Nash era

but before you do..I'm on record saying that Dirk is a GREAT player with a for-the-ages run one year in playoffs but his team came up short a lot of times even though he is essentially an unguardable player...so ultimately he has to shoulder the blame for the flameouts

[DMAVS41]

El oh El at Mavs fans overrating Dirk.
He's no higher then #22 all time and no lower than 33# all time.
He has no case to crack the top 20 unless he goes deep into the playoffs or wins a ring in the next 3 years. (not happening)
Must be something in the water in Dallas. Must of you dumbasses happen to think Tony Romo is a top quarterback as well.


List your top 21 please.

[get these NETS]

:roll: once again you clearly didnt read what I wrote.
when the smilies come out, you know a dude has run out of points

don't worry....this butt-kicking you're taking is only between us

[get these NETS]

1)Why does it matter his position? We rank players regardless of position...we rank them on how good they were/are.

2)But anyway, Dirk is a pf and only Duncan is for sure better than him in the all time rankings. Dirk could easily go down as the 2nd best pf to date when he retires.

3)So if a player plays one poor series...they can't be top 20 all time?

4)Please list your top 20 players of all time.

1
if a player isn't consensus top 2-3 alltime at his position it's hard to lock him in as top tier ever....especially considering that the center position has 4-7 top tier ever players among the top 10-20

2
familiar with the term "tweener"?
despite Dirk's height..he is thought of as a perimeter player primarily..
even in modern nba where big men are multi skilled...traditionally power forward operates closer to the paint...

Dirk's non traditional game .....and lack of rebounding numbers for a four obscures his position

3. which "one" poor series are you referring to.....? losing to warriors as 1 seed and mvp......blowing finals to the heat? or the multiple early exits in playoffs?

I know Dirk played in shaq and duncan era...in a weird way I think even losing to prime shaq and prime duncan teams each year wouldn't seem as bad as some of the playoff losses the mavs had


4. would have to sit down...but Dirk's name doesn't come to mind off the top

[DMAVS41]

very detailed response

1-3 I don't buy because we're talking about a young first round pick
not a middle aged or overweight journeyman

and as mentioned before....2 x all nba pick



now craft a set of excuses for the post Nash era

but before you do..I'm on record saying that Dirk is a GREAT player with a for-the-ages run one year in playoffs but his team came up short a lot of times even though he is essentially an unguardable player...so ultimately he has to shoulder the blame for the flameouts

You don't buy them?

They are facts. Sorry.

The rules absolutely impacted Nash. Just a fact.
Nash was constantly battling health issues...especially his bad back in 04. Just a fact.
Nash also wasn't dedicated to the game like he was on the Suns by his own admission. Just a fact.

Those above are actually not something you buy or not...they are just facts.

But again, we can throw that all out and just talk about what happened.

Should the 02 Mavs have beaten the 02 Kings? If so, why?
Should the 03 Mavs have done better without Dirk in the WCF against the future champion Spurs?
How about 04? Should Dirk have won with Nash scoring 14 ppg on 46% TS while being a historically bad defensive player?

The point is simple. The Nash/Dirk era never really got off the ground. In 02 they performed as good or better than even the highest expectations. 03 was great as well and there is probably a 50/50 chance they win the title if Dirk doesn't get hurt. 04...injuries to Nash and Finley's decline derailed any chance that team had.

So claiming that Dirk should have done more from 02 through 04 with Nash is just silly.

Post Nash?

Would take too long, but needless to say...you won't find many championship teams with the likes of Jason Terry as the 2nd best player. You'll find a few throughout history, but it's very rare. Stars are needed to win titles in this league. Always been that way and always will. Dallas had really good teams at times, but only one true star. And when playing teams with multiple stars...that margin of error is just too small to consistently win titles. Hence you got a bunch of really good regular seasons and some deep playoff runs, but only one title post 04...1 star teams almost never win.

It's not hard nor complicated.

[DMAVS41]

1
if a player isn't consensus top 2-3 alltime at his position it's hard to lock him in as top tier ever....especially considering that the center position has 4-7 top tier ever players among the top 10-20

2
familiar with the term "tweener"?
despite Dirk's height..he is thought of as a perimeter player primarily..
even in modern nba where big men are multi skilled...traditionally power forward operates closer to the paint...

Dirk's non traditional game .....and lack of rebounding numbers for a four obscures his position

3. which "one" poor series are you referring to.....? losing to warriors as 1 seed and mvp......blowing finals to the heat? or the multiple early exits in playoffs?

I know Dirk played in shaq and duncan era...in a weird way I think even losing to prime shaq and prime duncan teams each year wouldn't seem as bad as some of the playoff losses the mavs had


4. would have to sit down...but Dirk's name doesn't come to mind off the top


Well, Dirk has just as good of a case for being in the top 3 power forwards as anyone else does. So...

Teams blow games and series sometimes as well...not just players.

Dirk's poor rebounding numbers? He's over 10 a game for his career in the playoffs. Not poor at all. Please educate yourself.

Dirk is one of the best playoff performers of all time. A truly great elimination game and game 7 player. Dirk has never lost a do or die game 5 or game 7...he's undefeated.

He's led the Mavs to 11 straight 50 win seasons. Only matched or exceeded by Magic's Lakers, Duncan's Spurs, and Russell's Celtics.

He won a title without an all nba teammate. He won a title as one of or perhaps the biggest underdog team to win a title in modern NBA history. People just ignore that, but the Mavs were roughly 20 to 1 to win the title entering the playoffs. We went back and tried to look in other threads and virtually no other title teams were such big underdogs...not to mention the absurd competition the Mavs faced as well.

So you have a player that is one of four NBA players in the history of the game to average over 25/10 for their careers in the playoffs. You have one of the most clutch and best big game players in playoff history. You unprecedented consistent regular season success for a franchise with only 1 all nba type player.

I could go on and on. After Duncan...Dirk has just as good of a reason to be ranked as the 2nd best PF as any other PF does in history.

Who do you rank over Dirk at PF? Barkley? They guy that never won? Malone? Same thing? KG? Pettit? Dirk has a good case over all of them.

[Dragonyeuw]

:facepalm

Are people really arguing that Dirk isn't top alltime 20? For the past 12 years he's kept the Mavs in the thick of the western conference playoff race with like 3 different rosters. In 2011, he leads the Mavs to a title with a roster filled mostly of veteran role players and no true second star player, against a Heat team with prime Lebron,Wade and Bosh. He's unquestionably the best European NBA player ever. 25k+ points on high effieciency. An MVP award in 2007 with guys like Kobe, Garnett, Duncan in their primes and Lebron, Wade etc established as torch bearers for the next decade.

Why is it we put Hakeem in the top 10 largely off his back to back run while conveniently ignoring the years of first round futility, but Dirk off the strength of his career stats, leading the Mavs as a perennial playoff contender for a decade, an MVP, ring and finals MVP for an epic 2011 title run on an individual level......isn't top 20??

[DMAVS41]

:facepalm

Are people really arguing that Dirk isn't top alltime 20? For the past 12 years he's kept the Mavs in the thick of the western conference playoff race with like 3 different rosters. In 2011, he leads the Mavs to a title with a roster filled mostly of veteran role players and no true second star player, against a Heat team with prime Lebron,Wade and Bosh. He's unquestionably the best European NBA player ever. 25k+ points on high effieciency. An MVP award in 2007 with guys like Kobe, Garnett, Duncan in their primes and Lebron, Wade etc established as torch bearers for the next decade.

Why is it we put Hakeem in the top 10 largely off his back to back run while conveniently ignoring the years of first round futility, but Dirk off the strength of his career stats, leading the Mavs as a perennial playoff contender for a decade, an MVP, ring and finals MVP for an epic 2011 title run on an individual level......isn't top 20??

There isn't an answer for this.

It's because people stick with narratives forever...they wanted to believe that Dirk was the problem in Dallas and so they made up their minds no matter what.

I even said as such before the Mavs won in 2011. I said even if they win with Dirk balling out of his mind like this...people will find other reasons and people to credit.

Now look. You hear about how Chandler was the real MVP...how Terry carried the team. How Barea was amazing..etc.

Yet with no other player would you hear about that crap if they won with the 11 Mavs. You see Kobe, KG, Shaq, Lebron, Wade...etc...all win with significantly more help and you don't hear the teammates mentioned that often.

20 to 1 underdogs to win the title. Best player outplays every star he faces (Aldridge, Kobe, Gasol, Durant, Westbrook, Lebron, Bosh, and Wade)...wins 2 series on the road...and puts up the best clutch performance we've seen in this era by far.

Team he beat goes on to win next two titles. Still only 1 team/player has beaten the Heat now in 3 years in a series. Dirk and the Mavs...

[get these NETS]

1)You don't buy them?

They are facts. Sorry.

The rules absolutely impacted Nash. Just a fact.


rules benefited all perimeter players.....nash went from all nba 3rd team to mvp candidate....which isn't as much of a jump as you're making it out to be
remember in shooting guard dominant era.....nash still made all nba which would make him on paper top 1-2 point guard in league

D'antoni's offense helped Nash flourish also....not just rules changes



Nash was constantly battling health issues...especially his bad back in 04. Just a fact.
Nash also wasn't dedicated to the game like he was on the Suns by his own admission. Just a fact.

still an under 30 year old first round pick and professional athlete

Those above are actually not something you buy or not...they are just facts.

But again, we can throw that all out and just talk about what happened.

Should the 02 Mavs have beaten the 02 Kings? If so, why?
Should the 03 Mavs have done better without Dirk in the WCF against the future champion Spurs?
How about 04? Should Dirk have won with Nash scoring 14 ppg on 46% TS while being a historically bad defensive player?



The point is simple. The Nash/Dirk era never really got off the ground. In 02 they performed as good or better than even the highest expectations. 03 was great as well and there is probably a 50/50 chance they win the title if Dirk doesn't get hurt. 04...injuries to Nash and Finley's decline derailed any chance that team had.

So claiming that Dirk should have done more from 02 through 04 with Nash is just silly.

in that era shaq kobe and nash dirk are only set of all nba teammates I can think of,so how else are we to look at what they did or didn't do?
not like they clashed on court or played similiar positions...like two swingmen..sg and sf


Post Nash?

Would take too long, but needless to say...you won't find many championship teams with the likes of Jason Terry as the 2nd best player. You'll find a few throughout history, but it's very rare. Stars are needed to win titles in this league. Always been that way and always will. Dallas had really good teams at times, but only one true star. And when playing teams with multiple stars...that margin of error is just too small to consistently win titles. Hence you got a bunch of really good regular seasons and some deep playoff runs, but only one title post 04...1 star teams almost never win.

It's not hard nor complicated.



They year Dirk got over the hump......tough juice was out..caron butler, who i am going to assume was the second leading scorer went down and Mavs won ring anyway....either you step up or you don't

Terry,was instrumental in the title run....and had stretches where he was carrying the team


the team that lost in finals wasn't bunch of scrubs either


Dirk was and is the alpha wolf......he takes credit when they won ring when he did historic things.....he shoulders blame when they lose series after series...or blow lead in finals or lose first round to 8 seed with the league's mvp

[DirkNowitzki41]

:facepalm

Are people really arguing that Dirk isn't top alltime 20? For the past 12 years he's kept the Mavs in the thick of the western conference playoff race with like 3 different rosters. In 2011, he leads the Mavs to a title with a roster filled mostly of veteran role players and no true second star player, against a Heat team with prime Lebron,Wade and Bosh. He's unquestionably the best European NBA player ever. 25k+ points on high effieciency. An MVP award in 2007 with guys like Kobe, Garnett, Duncan in their primes and Lebron, Wade etc established as torch bearers for the next decade.

Why is it we put Hakeem in the top 10 largely off his back to back run while conveniently ignoring the years of first round futility, but Dirk off the strength of his career stats, leading the Mavs as a perennial playoff contender for a decade, an MVP, ring and finals MVP for an epic 2011 title run on an individual level......isn't top 20??

:applause:

Good to see some people who actually know their stuff.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

There isn't an answer for this.

It's because people stick with narratives forever...they wanted to believe that Dirk was the problem in Dallas and so they made up their minds no matter what.

I even said as such before the Mavs won in 2011. I said even if they win with Dirk balling out of his mind like this...people will find other reasons and people to credit.

Now look. You hear about how Chandler was the real MVP...how Terry carried the team. How Barea was amazing..etc.

Yet with no other player would you hear about that crap if they won with the 11 Mavs. You see Kobe, KG, Shaq, Lebron, Wade...etc...all win with significantly more help and you don't hear the teammates mentioned that often.

20 to 1 underdogs to win the title. Best player outplays every star he faces (Aldridge, Kobe, Gasol, Durant, Westbrook, Lebron, Bosh, and Wade)...wins 2 series on the road...and puts up the best clutch performance we've seen in this era by far.

Team he beat goes on to win next two titles. Still only 1 team/player has beaten the Heat now in 3 years in a series. Dirk and the Mavs...

Dirk never outplayed Wade. Other than that, I agree.

[DMAVS41]

They year Dirk got over the hump......tough juice was out..caron butler, who i am going to assume was the second leading scorer went down and Mavs won ring anyway....either you step up or you don't

Terry,was instrumental in the title run....and had stretches where he was carrying the team


the team that lost in finals wasn't bunch of scrubs either


Dirk was and is the alpha wolf......he takes credit when they won ring when he did historic things.....he shoulders blame when they lose series after series...or blow lead in finals or lose first round to 8 seed with the league's mvp





You are jumping around a lot and could you please just respond normally.

The point about Nash is simple. The rules, health, and his dedication to the game all prevented him from playing at the level he later would on the Suns. But you are right...he was still very good.

Again, look at the results. You just can't expect the 02 Mavs to beat the 02 Kings. Not even a hater could say that was a disappointment. In 03 Dirk got hurt in the WCF...so how is that anything other than bad luck? In 04...Nash was hurt/awful in the playoffs and Finley had declined.

That's it. Like I keep saying. That was the entire Nash/Dirk era. The only year they had a legit chance at winning the title was 03 and Dirk got hurt. If you want to blame Dirk for that...go ahead, but it speaks to nothing about the player Dirk is...not only that, but Dirk was probably the most durable or at least one of the most durable superstars in the league for his entire career until last year when age finally started to become a factor.



Nah. There just isn't any evidence that a team relying on Terry as the 2nd best player is going to win titles or challenge consistently. You get 1 off years at times like the 94 Rockets, 03 Spurs, and 11 Mavs...but in terms of consistently winning...you need superstars. Terry is a good 3rd or 4th best player on a title team. Not the 2nd banana.

You judge players on how they play...you really going to blame Dirk for the losing to the Nuggets in 09 or the Spurs in 10? Go back and watch those series or at least look at the stats...Dirk was amazing.

Again though. Nobody is saying Dirk is perfect. Like every other player in history that has played more than a handful of years...he's had some poor games and series and moments. But you need to list the 20 guys you rank ahead of him.

Because I know a lot of the names you will list...and I can't wait to point out all their flaws and shortcomings and get you to stay consistent.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk never outplayed Wade. Other than that, I agree.

I'd say as a whole in the finals Dirk was better because of what he did in the clutch.

But yea, Wade was definitely better until he got hurt. Cardinal gave them hip check and it was lights out for him.

Love BC...current Mavs need a player like that.

[get these NETS]

Well, Dirk has just as good of a case for being in the top 3 power forwards as anyone else does. So...

Teams blow games and series sometimes as well...not just players.

Dirk's poor rebounding numbers? He's over 10 a game for his career in the playoffs. Not poor at all. Please educate yourself.

valid point..I just remember when Avery took over the Mavs, he emphasized that he wanted Dirk to rebound more...and perhaps get key rebounds ,that matter

Dirk is one of the best playoff performers of all time. A truly great elimination game and game 7 player. Dirk has never lost a do or die game 5 or game 7...he's undefeated.

misleading stat....especially for a player with as many playoff appearances and series losses as Dirk.....his team certainly lost closeout games


He's led the Mavs to 11 straight 50 win seasons. Only matched or exceeded by Magic's Lakers, Duncan's Spurs, and Russell's Celtics.


interesting that you give credit to Dirk for the consistent regular season records but when the playoff series losses are discussed....it becomes "teams lose"

He won a title without an all nba teammate. He won a title as one of or perhaps the biggest underdog team to win a title in modern NBA history. People just ignore that, but the Mavs were roughly 20 to 1 to win the title entering the playoffs. We went back and tried to look in other threads and virtually no other title teams were such big underdogs...not to mention the absurd competition the Mavs faced as well.

pistons had to be as much of a dog when they beat lakers trying to fourpeat

Dirk playing on team with former all nba defenders at 1.3.5 spots on a team that had coach emphasizing defense had something to do with it...and while Dirk surely did historic stuff that run....don't forget about Terry catching fire


one of the Hakeem Rockets teams faced 4 teams with 50 wins or something like that in playoffs also ....so be easy with overstating Mavs opponents in the playoffs that year



So you have a player that is one of four NBA players in the history of the game to average over 25/10 for their careers in the playoffs. You have one of the most clutch and best big game players in playoff history. You unprecedented consistent regular season success for a franchise with only 1 all nba type player.

I could go on and on. After Duncan...Dirk has just as good of a reason to be ranked as the 2nd best PF as any other PF does in history.

Who do you rank over Dirk at PF? Barkley? They guy that never won? Malone? Same thing? KG? Pettit? Dirk has a good case over all of them.


Like I said I'd have to sit down but the Big E, and Mchale without Dirk's consistent regular season numbers are names that immediately pop up as traditional power forwards....i have to concede that I have to go look up power forwards after the ones that popped up in my head

[bizil]

I wouldn't say Dirk FOR SURE is top 20 all time, but it's arguable. I do feel he's FOR SURE a top 5 PF of all time along with Timmy, Malone, KG, and Barkley. All five of those guys are MVP's and three of them got a least one ring. Dirk of course is the one whose game doesn't really consist of the premium PF elements as huge parts of his arsenal. I'm not saying Dirk sucked at rebounding or was soft. It's just that scoring was really THE ONLY THING he was great at. But at the same time, he's likely the most difficult matchup EVER at PF. A true alpha dog who is as skilled of a shooter scorer type as guys like Bird, Durant, etc. But in a 7 foot 245 pound body. That's SICK SHIT!

I think Dirk's game should age damn good barring injury, even if he chooses to leave Dallas for a contender. And maybe fall back to a 2nd option. Dirk still has a chance to crack the top 20 FOR SURE if he gets with a contender or if Dallas turns it around. And don't be surprised if Dirk cracks the top 6 or 7 ALL TIME in career points. He has over 25,000 now. And I could see him getting damn close or even exceed 30 points. 1,000 points in even 60 games per year is like 16.7 points. I can see Dirk scoring at least that for the next 4-5 years. His game is built to last and he's maintained his dominance scoring wise longer than MOST of the other top 10 GOAT PF's other than Malone

[DMAVS41]

Like I said I'd have to sit down but the Big E, and Mchale without Dirk's consistent regular season numbers are names that immediately pop up as traditional power forwards....i have to concede that I have to go look up power forwards after the ones that popped up in my head

Sit down and do it then.

I have never said Dirk is without blame. Who are you going to credit for 11 straight 50 win seasons over Dirk? Of course other players and coaches played a role, but think about all the different players, coaches, systems...etc. One constant was prime Dirk...and he got you 50 wins and 26/10/3 in the playoffs every year for like 12 straight years. That is very rare.

I need to see your list because McHale absolutely is not on the Dirk tier all time. I can tell you that right now.

[DMAVS41]

I wouldn't say Dirk FOR SURE is top 20 all time, but it's arguable. I do feel he's FOR SURE a top 5 PF of all time along with Timmy, Malone, KG, and Barkley. All five of those guys are MVP's and three of them got a least one ring. Dirk of course is the one whose game doesn't really consist of the premium PF elements as huge parts of his arsenal. I'm not saying Dirk sucked at rebounding or was soft. It's just that scoring was really THE ONLY THING he was great at. But at the same time, he's likely the most difficult matchup EVER at PF. A true alpha dog who is as skilled of a shooter scorer type as guys like Bird, Durant, etc. But in a 7 foot 245 pound body. That's SICK SHIT!

I think Dirk's game should age damn good barring injury, even if he chooses to leave Dallas for a contender. And maybe fall back to a 2nd option. Dirk still has a chance to crack the top 20 FOR SURE if he gets with a contender or if Dallas turns it around. And don't be surprised if Dirk cracks the top 6 or 7 ALL TIME in career points. He has over 25,000 now. And I could see him getting damn close or even exceed 30 points. 1,000 points in even 60 games per year is like 16.7 points. I can see Dirk scoring at least that for the next 4-5 years. His game is built to last and he's maintained his dominance scoring wise longer than MOST of the other top 10 GOAT PF's other than Malone

The only way Dirk plays more than 2 more years after this year is if the Mavs a are a true contender. Hopefully that happens.

[bizil]

The only way Dirk plays more than 2 more years after this year is if the Mavs a are a true contender. Hopefully that happens.

I agree with u! Part of me wants Dirk to leave Dallas and go to a contender for another ring. I think Cuban owes Dirk that if the Mavs can't put something together.

[Fresh Kid]

He is top 20 to me, but easily top 15 with three more years? I'm not sure.
top 20 for what?:lol

[get these NETS]

:facepalm

Are people really arguing that Dirk isn't top alltime 20? For the past 12 years he's kept the Mavs in the thick of the western conference playoff race with like 3 different rosters. In 2011, he leads the Mavs to a title with a roster filled mostly of veteran role players and no true second star player, against a Heat team with prime Lebron,Wade and Bosh. He's unquestionably the best European NBA player ever. 25k+ points on high effieciency. An MVP award in 2007 with guys like Kobe, Garnett, Duncan in their primes and Lebron, Wade etc established as torch bearers for the next decade.

Why is it we put Hakeem in the top 10 largely off his back to back run while conveniently ignoring the years of first round futility, but Dirk off the strength of his career stats, leading the Mavs as a perennial playoff contender for a decade, an MVP, ring and finals MVP for an epic 2011 title run on an individual level......isn't top 20??

Dream won mvp, dpoy, ring and finals mvp in the same season


dpoy didn't exist in wilt era....but only MJ and Dream have so fully and completely dominated the league on paper and then backed it up in the same year in the playoffs

Dream was a consistent dominant player who reached a virtually unmatched peak of two years where he was playing like he was from another planet

[DMAVS41]

Dream won mvp, dpoy, ring and finals mvp in the same season


dpoy didn't exist in wilt era....but only MJ and Dream have so fully and completely dominated the league on paper and then backed it up in the same year in the playoffs

Dream was a consistent dominant player who reached a virtually unmatched peak of two years where he was playing like he was from another planet

Could you actually sit down and make a list so we can see where you rank Dirk and who you have over him.

Right now it just seems like you are hiding behind not ranking while claiming Dirk can't be top 20. Or maybe that isn't you. I can't keep track of all of you.

[branslowski]

There isn't an answer for this.

It's because people stick with narratives forever...they wanted to believe that Dirk was the problem in Dallas and so they made up their minds no matter what.

I even said as such before the Mavs won in 2011. I said even if they win with Dirk balling out of his mind like this...people will find other reasons and people to credit.

Now look. You hear about how Chandler was the real MVP...how Terry carried the team. How Barea was amazing..etc.



I agree with this....But you should really read this again and look in the mirror. Replace Dirks name with Kobe, and u'll see the irony of your post.

Talk about a taste of your own medicine.:oldlol:

[Dragonyeuw]

Dream won mvp, dpoy, ring and finals mvp in the same season


dpoy didn't exist in wilt era....but only MJ and Dream have so fully and completely dominated the league on paper and then backed it up in the same year in the playoffs

Dream was a consistent dominant player who reached a virtually unmatched peak of two years where he was playing like he was from another planet

I wasn't arguing that Hakeem doesn't deserve a top 10 ranking, more arguing a case that Dirk's achievements both individually and team-wise, his impact on the rosters he's played with, are top 20 worthy. He's been a rock for the Mavs for over a decade, playing with a few turnovers of rosters and coaches. He's been the one constant in that team being an elite Western conference squad the last several years.

[DMAVS41]

I agree with this....But you should really read this again and look in the mirror. Replace Dirks name with Kobe, and u'll see the irony of your post.

Talk about a taste of your own medicine.:oldlol:

Not at all. I used to argue forever with morons in 05 through 08 that Kobe would definitely win again...and was an all time great player.

I would have been known as a Kobe stan from 03 through 08...or whatever.

That is what is so funny about it. How I defended Lebron the last few years until he won...you know that? That is exactly what I did for Kobe...I just didn't do it on here.

I call Kobe a sure fire top 11 player of all time...etc.

I never said Gasol was better than Kobe. Never said Kobe wasn't the best player. Never gave anyone else more credit. I simply said the Lakers were stacked. That's it. But please lets not get into that again. We just disagree.

So you are just way off on me...as usual.

[get these NETS]

Sit down and do it then.

I have never said Dirk is without blame. Who are you going to credit for 11 straight 50 win seasons over Dirk? Of course other players and coaches played a role, but think about all the different players, coaches, systems...etc. One constant was prime Dirk...and he got you 50 wins and 26/10/3 in the playoffs every year for like 12 straight years. That is very rare.

I need to see your list because McHale absolutely is not on the Dirk tier all time. I can tell you that right now.

I'm consistent on ish....I concede points once they've been made...and expect people I'm debating to do the same.....

I own a few nba books and i have to go back and check the names of the fours...

Dirk was not in my top 2-3....and if I go back and look over everything and change my mind...I'll post it here...

people not conceding obvious points or point made/proven is corny..


in the meantime I think I've made my point about pre-mvp yet all nba Nash..paired with pre-mvp yet all nba Dirk ....falling short

and remember for all the excuses about injuries.....the year KG broke through...Sam Cassell fell apart physically but KG still takes the blame for Wolves not winning that year.....just the way it goes

KG..Cassell and Sprewell were the big three that year ..and unless I'm getting years wrong ..kg won mvp that year....but deep into the run cassell broke down and they lost ....period.

wolves roster was no better than early 2000s mavs roster ..KG took the L...period

[guy]

Dirk doesn't even seem like he's cared since he won a title. Not sure if it's because they weren't contending or just that he really doesn't care. Wouldn't be surprised if he retired after this season, which is the end of his contract. If he were to play for a contender, it wouldn't be for the Mavs, who clearly don't look like they'll be one anytime soon. And it doesn't seem like he'd leave Dallas. So is he just going to bother spending his late 30s playing on an 8th seed/lottery team?

[DMAVS41]

Dirk doesn't even seem like he's cared since he won a title. Not sure if it's because they weren't contending or just that he really doesn't care. Wouldn't be surprised if he retired after this season, which is the end of his contract. If he were to play for a contender, it wouldn't be for the Mavs, who clearly don't look like they'll be one anytime soon. And it doesn't seem like he'd leave Dallas. So is he just going to bother spending his late 30s playing on an 8th seed/lottery team?

He definitely cares. The lockout messed up part of his 12 season...although he got it going late and in the playoffs.

Last year he was hurt half the year.

This year he's looked healthy so far, but at his age...you are going to start slowing down.

He's definitely going to play at least 2 more years after this one unless he gets injured or something.

I like this Mavs team. They are one star player away from being a contender. Is that possible? Probably not, but with Dirk taking a pay cut this summer...the Mavs should have a damn good roster for the next 2 plus years.

So while a title is highly unlikely, Dirk should at least get to play on some quality teams after this year.

[guy]

He definitely cares. The lockout messed up part of his 12 season...although he got it going late and in the playoffs.

Last year he was hurt half the year.

This year he's looked healthy so far, but at his age...you are going to start slowing down.

He's definitely going to play at least 2 more years after this one unless he gets injured or something.

I like this Mavs team. They are one star player away from being a contender. Is that possible? Probably not, but with Dirk taking a pay cut this summer...the Mavs should have a damn good roster for the next 2 plus years.

So while a title is highly unlikely, Dirk should at least get to play on some quality teams after this year.

Is a damn good roster better then a 7th or 8th seed? Cause they aren't doing any better then that with Monta and old ass Dirk as there two best players. And that's what currently looks like will be the case.