Top 3 Worst MVP Selections [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

Flash31

11-07-2013, 08:16 PM

as much of a douchbag as he is Dwight deserved it over Rose

yep,look at the stats for the other two MVP Candidtates in 2011

LeBron,Dwight
then look at Rose's

The only reason Rose won MVP is bc everybody hated LeBro,the whole media hated LeBron,they were tired of giving it to him,and bc it made a great story

and even then,Dwight also was better than D-Rose
Kevin Durant was as well,
Dwyane Wade was as well,
Chris Paul was as well

But apparently that year it was basically best player on highest ranked team and whatever makes a feel good story

JimmyMcAdocious

11-07-2013, 08:17 PM

All the people taking peak Shaq's MVPs.

Rik Smits' Hair

11-07-2013, 08:18 PM

Rose

Iverson

SamuraiSWISH

11-07-2013, 08:20 PM

Magic 1990
Nash 2006
Dirk 2007

Smoke117

11-07-2013, 08:26 PM

In recent years:

Allen Iverson (Shaq should have repeated easily)
Derrick Rose (that was D Howards or at the very least Lebrons)
One of those years Nash won it (shrug)

Horde of Temujin

11-07-2013, 08:44 PM

Every year that Jordan and Shaq didnt win when they were at their peaks

Brook(lyn)Lopez

11-07-2013, 08:55 PM

The guy who won it when his team had the best record in the NBA, but they lost to an 8 seed in the first round in embarrassing fashion.

Bigsmoke

11-07-2013, 09:01 PM

as much of a douchbag as he is Dwight deserved it over Rose

No way

Genaro

11-07-2013, 09:06 PM

Rose 2011
Nash 2006
Iverson 2001

DirkNowitzki41

11-07-2013, 09:10 PM

Magic 1990
Nash 2006
Dirk 2007

How is dirk 2007 a bad selection? It's a regular season award and he was the best player on the best team...

and LOL @ you not mentioning the obvious choise in Rose 2011

coin24

11-07-2013, 09:11 PM

Anyone saying iverson was blatantly not watching bball back then:lol :facepalm

Rose is debatable, iirc there wasn't any other clear favourite though. He lead the bulls to the best record. Lebron embarrassed himself teaming up and dwight was defensive player of the year?

I fully agree with Malone though, Jordan got robbed

Out_In_Utah

11-07-2013, 09:20 PM

Dirk 2007

You must be joking.

DMAVS41

11-07-2013, 09:26 PM

Magic 1990
Nash 2006
Dirk 2007

Who deserved it over Dirk in 2007?

Dirk averaged 25/9/3 on 61% TS and led his team to 67 wins. Was part of the 50/40/90 club. I'd like to know how that wasn't deserving in 2007.

nathanjizzle

11-07-2013, 09:31 PM

NumberSix

11-07-2013, 09:40 PM

or it was the fact that rose scored 28.5 points and 7 assists against the top 8 teams in the league. :confusedshrug: while having a winning record and winning 12 of their last 12 against those teams. :confusedshrug:

thats more than lebron or wade, plus the heat had a horrific losing record against those teams. :confusedshrug:
Yeah, and Dirk also beat the team who mollywhopped Rose's sorry 6% behind.

Johnny Jones

11-07-2013, 09:41 PM

SMH at the dudes saying Dirk in this thread.

branslowski

11-07-2013, 09:43 PM

Yeah, and Dirk also beat the team who mollywhopped Rose's sorry 6% behind.

What does Dirk winning in the Finals and Rose's 6% in the playoffs have to do with what went down in the regular season?:biggums:

Smoke117

11-07-2013, 09:43 PM

Who deserved it over Dirk in 2007?

Dirk averaged 25/9/3 on 61% TS and led his team to 67 wins. Was part of the 50/40/90 club. I'd like to know how that wasn't deserving in 2007.

Dirk definitely deserved it. I dunno what these idiots are saying.

Pointguard

11-07-2013, 10:02 PM

yep,look at the stats for the other two MVP Candidtates in 2011

LeBron,Dwight
then look at Rose's

The only reason Rose won MVP is bc everybody hated LeBro,the whole media hated LeBron,they were tired of giving it to him,and bc it made a great story

and even then,Dwight also was better than D-Rose
Kevin Durant was as well,
Dwyane Wade was as well,
Chris Paul was as well

But apparently that year it was basically best player on highest ranked team and whatever makes a feel good story
Lebron teamed up with Wade and Bosh and didn't have the best record in the East. Nothing else needs to be said there. Rose's team dominated the elite 8 in the league while Miami had a loosing record against them. Rose's team had two very big injuries. Why make it easier for Lebron when he and his friends formed a power house and managed to let a young Chicago team with one star have a better record than them. Plus Lebron said it was Rose's MVP.

DH was never in the conversation and would have been shut out in the voting if he wasn't approaching free agency. The guy had his team taken from him because the owner was called out by Lebron and then embarrassed by him while they watched Lebron go for 50 plus. So if you don't make a stand for your team and bosses you aren't going to get MVP. After that humiliation Lebron let it be known it should be Rose. Sorry, its just a brutal reality of life that nobody is going to reward you for not standing up when you should have. On top of that he didn't play too bright either.

Nobody else was really close. Rose won by a huge landslide, one of the bigger ones in recent memory, and rightfully so. And later on we see that leadership is something that you can't take for granted. All of the guys you named above went to new teams and simply underachieved big time with big time talent around them. All showed a need for leadership and the inability to come together for the team above all else.

NumberSix

11-07-2013, 10:14 PM

What does Dirk winning in the Finals and Rose's 6% in the playoffs have to do with what went down in the regular season?:biggums:
As much as Dirk losing to the Warriors does.

guy

11-07-2013, 10:16 PM

Howard led his team to a 4th seed. Lebron teamed up with 2 other stars, one of whom was arguably just as good as him, but led his team to a lesser record then Rose, who was missing two of his three best teammates for 23 and 34 games, and Lebron was also embarrassingly bad in the clutch and in closing out games with many teams making big 3rd/4th quarter comebacks against the Heat. Rose's MVP wasn't even close to a bad selection. Maybe it was a weak MVP year, but it wasn't a bad selection. Its was pretty consistent with the voting of previous MVPs.

Heavincent

11-07-2013, 10:26 PM

toooo

11-07-2013, 10:27 PM

Lebron
Lebron
Lebron
Lebron
Lebron
Lebron

Wait, he hasn't won that many. Sorry, confused him with the GOAT Bill Russel.

DMAVS41

11-07-2013, 10:27 PM

What does Dirk winning in the Finals and Rose's 6% in the playoffs have to do with what went down in the regular season?:biggums:

Nothing. Rose deserved MVP.

SamuraiSWISH

11-07-2013, 10:30 PM

The guy who won it when his team had the best record in the NBA, but they lost to an 8 seed in the first round in embarrassing fashion.
Quoted for the most truth in the thread, never has any MVP accepted that award at home on their couch instead of the conference finals.

Embarrassing honestly. No real MVP lets his team get bounced in the first round to an 8th seed no less. The biggest skid mark on the award ever. Guy got outplayed by league journeyman Stephen Jackson.

:roll:

DMAVS41

11-07-2013, 10:35 PM

Quoted for the most truth in the thread, never has any MVP accepted that award at home on their couch instead of the conference finals.

Embarrassing honestly. No real MVP lets his team get bounced in the first round to an 8th seed no less. The biggest skid mark on the award ever. Guy got outplayed by league journeyman Stephen Jackson.

:roll:

You know how you know you are an all time great player?

When a series of 20/11/2 is considered the worst thing known to man.

But I still don't see the relevance of a regular season award being impacted by postseason play.

DirkNowitzki41

11-07-2013, 10:39 PM

Quoted for the most truth in the thread, never has any MVP accepted that award at home on their couch instead of the conference finals.

Embarrassing honestly. No real MVP lets his team get bounced in the first round to an 8th seed no less. The biggest skid mark on the award ever. Guy got outplayed by league journeyman Stephen Jackson.

:roll:

someone is mad that rose is the worst mvp in nba history :applause:

SamuraiSWISH

11-07-2013, 10:50 PM

someone is mad that rose is the worst mvp in nba history :applause:
Rose isn't my favorite player, so not really. I just know Dirks MVP is the most pathetic showing in history.

The playoffs lend perspective on the real MVP of the league. It's the same argument people are using for Rose MVP being the worst ever, right?

Rose got outplayed by LeBron and D Wade, a tandem of players better than Dirk himself.

Dirk got outplayed by a journeyman, and an 8th seed ... In his prime/peak. Utterly horrendous. Fake MVP wet the bed in the 1st round to an inferior team.

2011 was a weak selection year on an individual level. Why? DH didn't carry his team to as many wins as Rose. Dirk was injured and Caron Butler played really well picking up his slack. And the two best players in the league were busy being cowards by teaming up. Their production negated each other.

So Rose was a good choice. Lead the Bulls to best record in the league with way less talent than LeBron, Wade, and Dirk. Howard ha comparable talent to Rose but didn't win like Derrick with clutch, game saving performances. As a 22 year old, his 2nd best player being trash all year ... Carlos Boozer.

Weak MVP year sure, Rose was hardly undeserving.

DMAVS41

11-07-2013, 10:54 PM

Rose isn't my favorite player, so not really. I just know Dirks MVP is the most pathetic showing in history.

The playoffs lend perspective on the real MVP of the league. It's the same argument people are using for Rose MVP being the worst ever, right?

Rose got outplayed by LeBron and D Wade, a tandem of players better than Dirk himself.

Dirk got outplayed by a journeyman, and an 8th seed ... In his prime/peak. Utterly horrendous. Fake MVP wet the bed in the 1st round to an inferior team.

2011 was a weak selection year on an individual level. Why? DH didn't carry his team to as many wins as Rose. Dirk was injured and Caron Butler played really well picking up his slack. And the two best players in the league were busy being cowards by teaming up. Their production negated each other.

So Rose was a good choice. Lead the Bulls to best record in the league with way less talent than LeBron, Wade, and Dirk. Howard ha comparable talent to Rose but didn't win like Derrick with clutch, game saving performances. As a 22 year old, his 2nd best player being trash all year ... Carlos Boozer.

Weak MVP year sure, Rose was hardly undeserving.

Rose was definitely deserving so I'm not going to get into that. Of course so was Dirk...even more so, but that doesn't need debating.

Were the Warriors really an inferior team to the Mavs? It's honestly debatable.

Have you actually looked at the rosters?

SamuraiSWISH

11-07-2013, 10:56 PM

Rose didn't let his #1 seed lose to an up start, energetic, athletic Pacer team the way Dirk let the Mavericks get sodomized in the 1st round in possibly the most embarrassing NBA playoff series of all time.

He lost and played poorly against a historically great team. Oh such shame in that, MVPs like Nash, Dirk have gotten embarrassed by worse. No three peat caliber teams knocking them out. Significant difference.

Heavincent

11-07-2013, 11:01 PM

Were the Warriors really an inferior team to the Mavs? It's honestly debatable.

Have you actually looked at the rosters?

Come on...

NumberSix

11-07-2013, 11:01 PM

When did ISH become all about Dirk-vs-Rose? :confusedshrug:

toooo

11-07-2013, 11:02 PM

When did ISH become all about Dirk-vs-Rose? :confusedshrug:

Lebron isn't getting enough attention for you? :roll: :roll:

NumberSix

11-07-2013, 11:04 PM

Lebron isn't getting enough attention for you? :roll: :roll:
Do you even english?

:roll: :roll:

DMAVS41

11-07-2013, 11:08 PM

Come on...

Take a look;

Howard/Terry/Stackhouse/Harris/Damp/Diop/George/Croshere

Davis/Jackson/Richardson/Barnes/Ellis/Harrington/Pietrus/Biedrins

We gonna sit here and act like that is some scrub team?

SamuraiSWISH

11-07-2013, 11:09 PM

Come on...
Seriously ...

Agenda exposed much?

I thought record determined how good a team was? At least that's his argument for why the Bulls are just so talented.

The very next series that team got smacked by the Jazz.

toooo

11-07-2013, 11:12 PM

Do you even english?

:roll: :roll:

:facepalm :wtf:

SamuraiSWISH

11-07-2013, 11:13 PM

NumberSix

11-07-2013, 11:14 PM

:facepalm :wtf:
Please tell me you're joking

toooo

11-07-2013, 11:16 PM

Please tell me you're joking
You even think, maybe they don't might Blake shooting jumpers?

Johnny Jones

11-07-2013, 11:18 PM

MVP is a regular season award, and Dirk was unreal in the regular season.

NumberSix

11-07-2013, 11:18 PM

You even think, maybe they don't might Blake shooting jumpers?
Lol. You're right. :roll: :roll:

DMAVS41

11-07-2013, 11:19 PM

Reg. Season + Playoffs tell you who the real MVP was:

Kobe - 2010
Duncan - 2007
Wade - 2006
Duncan - 2005
MJ - 1997
Hakeem - 1995
MJ - 1993
MJ - 1990
MJ - 1989

2011 is a complete toss up for both reg and post season play to me. People made decent cases at different times. Why is Rose MVP so undervalued?

2011 is absolutely not a toss up factoring in regular season and playoffs. Dirk would be the clear cut MVP. Dirk's regular season is so under-rated. His team went 55-18 with him on the floor and put up 23/7/3 on 61% TS. Rose put up 25/8/4 on 55% TS in the regular season. Those stat lines are about as close as you can get. Dirk's team success was right in line with Rose's when healthy as well.

Then you get the clear cut best player in the playoffs putting up 28/8/3 on 61% TS and winning the title.

And you call that a toss up? GTFO...

nathanjizzle

11-07-2013, 11:20 PM

according to ish, if you are under 6'3" you will never deserve an mvp award.

NumberSix

11-07-2013, 11:22 PM

according to ish, if you are under 6'3" you will never deserve an mvp award.
Fuq is dis fake Asian niqqa talkin bout?

RoundMoundOfReb

11-07-2013, 11:22 PM

according to ish, if you are under 6'3" you will never deserve an mvp award.
or maybe tall people just tend to be better at basketball.

DMAVS41

11-07-2013, 11:23 PM

Seriously ...

Agenda exposed much?

I thought record determined how good a team was? At least that's his argument for why the Bulls are just so talented.

The very next series that team got smacked by the Jazz.

I've never said record determines how good a team is. This is a big flaw with how many people evaluate teams. They use a flawed regular season record as a means to either prop up or diminish certain things. Those 07 Mavs could have easily won 55 games (12 less than they actually did)...and nobody would have thought twice about it.

But Dirk played unreal throughout and they over-achieved hugely in the regular season...and then his great play is used against him claiming he had a 67 win team by his side.

I've never said that about Rose. I've never referenced his 62 wins and used it against him like that.

The same thing happened with Lebron in 09 and 10...his team had great regular season success and it skewed how good those teams actually were.

DMAVS41

11-07-2013, 11:24 PM

or maybe tall people just tend to be better at basketball.

It's good to see people that get it.

NumberSix

11-07-2013, 11:27 PM

It's good to see people that get it.
If were gonna keep grading on a curve to excuse shorter people for not being as good as taller people, I'm gonna start penalizing fast people for being faster than slower people.

Heavincent

11-07-2013, 11:27 PM

Take a look;

Howard/Terry/Stackhouse/Harris/Damp/Diop/George/Croshere

Davis/Jackson/Richardson/Barnes/Ellis/Harrington/Pietrus/Biedrins

We gonna sit here and act like that is some scrub team?

I'm sorry, but that's not some juggernaut team. There's a reason we never heard from them again. Certainly a team the MVP should be able to handle.

DMAVS41

11-07-2013, 11:28 PM

If were gonna keep grading on a curve to excuse shorter people for not being as good as taller people, I'm gonna start penalizing fast people for being faster than slower people.

Exactly. I used to debate game winning shot stuff with Kobe fans all the time. Finally when the numbers came out...they conceded Dirk was better, but said it wasn't a fair comparison because Dirk is taller and can get better shots.

I literally pissed my pants...

This shit never ceases to amaze me.

branslowski

11-07-2013, 11:32 PM

Exactly. I used to debate game winning shot stuff with Kobe fans all the time. Finally when the numbers came out...they conceded Dirk was better, but said it wasn't a fair comparison because Dirk is taller and can get better shots.

I literally pissed my pants...

This shit never ceases to amaze me.

Stop lying....No one ever conceded shit. And Dirk being a 7 foot PF should definitely take consideration in FG% stats. Most big men have high fg%.

DMAVS41

11-07-2013, 11:35 PM

I'm sorry, but that's not some juggernaut team. There's a reason we never heard from them again. Certainly a team the MVP should be able to handle.

Did I say they were great? No. I said they weren't some run of the mill 8 seed. Hell, half their team was injured all year and they still won 42 games.

I've never said anything other than the Mavs weren't as good as their record and the Warriors were clearly better.

Baron/Richardson/Jackson/Harrington all went significant time not on the court

For example...the team went 36-27 with Baron on the court...

It's just a one off series. A team that was much better than their 42-40 record vs a team worse than their 67-15 record...with the Warriors happening to play a style that was a nightmare for the Mavs. Avery panicked and went small to try and match the Warriors and it killed us. We could talk forever about that series, but like I said before...You know you're an all time great when a 20/11/2 series is thought of like this.

That is how you really know greatness. When you play like ass....you get killed. You know how I know Parker isn't really an elite top 5 player like people claimed, besides just watching...nobody gave a **** that he was terrible in the finals.

DMAVS41

11-07-2013, 11:36 PM

Stop lying....No one ever conceded shit. And Dirk being a 7 foot PF should definitely take consideration in FG% stats. Most big men have high fg%.

No one conceded? Dirk is objectively better at game winning shots than Kobe...especially in the playoffs.

It's a fact. There is no debate.

Do we have to go over simple math again?

Heavincent

11-07-2013, 11:38 PM

We could talk forever about that series, but like I said before...You know you're an all time great when a 20/11/2 series is thought of like this.

You're conveniently leaving out the fact that he shot 38%.

branslowski

11-07-2013, 11:48 PM

No one conceded? Dirk is objectively better at game winning shots than Kobe...especially in the playoffs.

It's a fact. There is no debate.

Do we have to go over simple math again?

:oldlol: No one cares about ur "last 23.2 sec while game it tied blah blah" fg% numbers stat nerd. Rose 100% gw shots this season, Melo 0%, I'm still takin Melo.

Dirk is irrelevant truthfully. Poll the world on who'd you rather take the last shot between Kobe and Dirk, Kobe wins 80%-20% and I'm being gracious. We watch games, while u search numbers for games u never even watched and try to change history.

Kobe>>Dirk for clutch. Dirk is only relevant when he's discussed by you here and drunk fans in Dallas.

N!gga won't be remembered like Kobe, Shaq, LeBron, and Duncan....One title ass n!gga.

Don't even mention Dirk and Kobe in the same breath again bruh.:oldlol:

Now continue ur Rose hate....Or go waste ur time Stat nerdin punchin arbitrary circumstance numbers in trying to prove Dirk>>>Kobe. You delusional birth mistake.

red1

11-07-2013, 11:51 PM

Dirk is irrelevant truthfully. Poll the world on who'd you rather take the last shot between Kobe and Dirk, Kobe wins 80%-20% and I'm being gracious. We watch games, while u search numbers for games u never even watched and try to change history.

Kobe>>Dirk for clutch. Dirk is only relevant when he's discussed by you here and drunk fans in Dallas.

N!gga won't be remembered like Kobe, Shaq, LeBron, and Duncan....One title ass n!gga.

Don't even mention Dirk and Kobe in the same breath again bruh.:oldlol:

Now continue ur Rose hate....Or go waste ur time Stat nerdin punchin arbitrary circumstance numbers in trying to prove Dirk>>>Kobe. You delusional birth mistake.
:no: why you gotta be like that

Heavincent

11-07-2013, 11:52 PM

Dirk's 2011 playoff run was legendary though.

tpols

11-07-2013, 11:54 PM

....One title ass n!gga.

:oldlol:

Heavincent

11-07-2013, 11:57 PM

No it wasn't, overrated as shit. It was pretty good. If you've been watching dice pre 2010 no one would say this shit. Legendary? Lol my god.

Nah you have to admit the shit he was doing in the clutch throughout that playoff run was unreal. I don't even know what his stats were, but I remember watching him and being in awe.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

11-07-2013, 11:57 PM

Dirk being overrated again. Surprise surprise!! :lol

branslowski

11-08-2013, 12:06 AM

Dirk's 2011 playoff run was legendary though.

It was good. Especially the shots he hit vs Thunder. But the Finals?? If you gonna shoot 41% u gotta score more than 26ppg, u gotta be a playmaker on offense, da loca 2 assist per game, along with 0 impact on Defense. Mavs won as a team...And thats Dirk only important thing he ever did? Not impressed.

Especially when u dominate regular season, get MVP, and get bitched by a 8th seed no defense team....and before that? Choke away a 2-0 Finals lead and lose the series 4-2.

Good player, one of the best offensive PF's ever, but not as elite as DMavs41 tryna power Ranger transform him into.

Heavincent

11-08-2013, 12:09 AM

It's legendary but you name no particular moments haha, awesome indeed but sure as phuck not legendary. From that run I remember Barrea balling out his midget Puerto Rican mind, Jason Terry torching fools, including LeBron in the Finals. And Kidd and Marion locking up Bron and calling him a beech on national tv.

Dirk hitting the game winner in game 2 to cap off the 4th quarter comeback?

But I guess my favorite moment from that series was Terry splashing a 3 in Lebron's face http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXjHOELwMkE

HoopsFanNumero1

11-08-2013, 12:23 AM

Dirk's 2011 playoff run was legendary though.

Great? Yes. But certainly not legendary with such a mediocre Finals performance.

DMAVS41

11-08-2013, 02:00 AM

It was good. Especially the shots he hit vs Thunder. But the Finals?? If you gonna shoot 41% u gotta score more than 26ppg, u gotta be a playmaker on offense, da loca 2 assist per game, along with 0 impact on Defense. Mavs won as a team...And thats Dirk only important thing he ever did? Not impressed.

Especially when u dominate regular season, get MVP, and get bitched by a 8th seed no defense team....and before that? Choke away a 2-0 Finals lead and lose the series 4-2.

Good player, one of the best offensive PF's ever, but not as elite as DMavs41 tryna power Ranger transform him into.

The 0 impact on defense has to stop.

0 impact defensively is reserved for players like Kobe and Rose...players that actually hurt their teams defense. Kobe's teams get better on defense virtually every year when he's not in the game.

Yep...you know you're one of the best ever when 26/10/2 on 42/38/98 and dominant 4th qtr and clutch play gets the line:

"not impressed at all"

One player/team to beat the Heat so far? Dirk and the Mavs...

Dirk vs Kobe in playoffs? Dirk never lost a game...

Yep...you mad...still...years later

What you think of Kobe's 04 finals brah? You gonna average 23/3/4...you gotta shoot better than 38% from the field and 17% from the 3 point line. You gotta rebound or do some playmaking as a guard. That shit weak brah...not even trolling.

23/3/4 as the favorite and you shoot 38 and 17? And you lose in 5 with Shaq? And the Goat coach? Not a good look. And that ***** supposed to be top 10 all time? Not impressed.

Heavincent

11-08-2013, 02:02 AM

0 impact defensively is reserved for players like Kobe and Rose...players that actually hurt their teams defense. Kobe's teams get better on defense virtually every year when he's not in the game.

You're a clown.

KyleKong

11-08-2013, 02:02 AM

I don't want to bash Rose in anyway for his performance during the 2011 season, it was great.

However, I will always until the day I die believe that Dwight Howard deserved the MVP award above Rose and LeBron.

DMAVS41

11-08-2013, 02:05 AM

You're a clown.

Facts are facts.

Kobe's teams usually get worse on defense with him on the floor. Bitch gambles and misses assignments consistently.

Last time that ***** made a positive impact on defense...he was rocking the fro.

chazzy

11-08-2013, 02:07 AM

Why so angry :oldlol:

branslowski

11-08-2013, 02:09 AM

Facts are facts.

Kobe's teams usually get worse on defense with him on the floor. Bitch gambles and misses assignments consistently.

Last time that ***** made a positive impact on defense...he was rocking the fro.

:roll: 9 Time All-Defensive First Teams, Fact. Your a joke and you try too hard. Kobe's defense is factually far ans ahead of Dirks. Nice try dumbass.

KyleKong

11-08-2013, 02:11 AM

:roll: 9 Time All-Defensive First Teams, Fact. Your a joke and you try too hard. Kobe's defense is factually far ans ahead of Dirks. Nice try dumbass.

Kobe's defense is better than Dirks, yes.

Kobe getting 9 Defensive team selections is a joke, yes.

I thought Kobe stans didn't care about regular season awards anyway.

"Who cares LeBron has 3 more MVPs than Kobe, 5 > 2"

:confusedshrug:

DMAVS41

11-08-2013, 02:13 AM

:roll: 9 Time All-Defensive First Teams, Fact. Your a joke and you try too hard. Kobe's defense is factually far ans ahead of Dirks. Nice try dumbass.

The opinions of others aren't facts.

You need to learn what a fact is. Don't they teach about opinions and facts at Wal-Mart?

Qwyjibo

11-08-2013, 02:16 AM

I see people already covered the more recent right answers (Rose, Nash, Iverson, and anyone beating out Jordan in the 90's) among all the other mindless posts. Carry on.

Heavincent

11-08-2013, 02:19 AM

Facts are facts.

Kobe's teams usually get worse on defense with him on the floor. Bitch gambles and misses assignments consistently.

Last time that ***** made a positive impact on defense...he was rocking the fro.

Like I said...clown. Do you even watch the games, or do you just read box scores? You'd fit in perfectly with those idiot ESPN basketball writers like Hoolinger and Abbott who just pull meaningless advanced metrics out of their asses.

Treating basketball like it's a ****ing math equation. What a joke :facepalm

DMAVS41

11-08-2013, 02:41 AM

Like I said...clown. Do you even watch the games, or do you just read box scores? You'd fit in perfectly with those idiot ESPN basketball writers like Hoolinger and Abbott who just pull meaningless advanced metrics out of their asses.

Treating basketball like it's a ****ing math equation. What a joke :facepalm

My bad. I should listen to the opinions of die hard fans of a player instead of watching for myself and looking at objective measures.

You are the same fan base that still insists Kobe is the best game winning shot maker!

I watch the games and see it differently than you....so how do we settle disputes? I'd say an objective measure that is the same for all players is a good place to start.

Like the following.

Dirk is factually a better performer in elimination games in the playoffs. That might not mean anything, but it's a fact. You can't dispute that.

And you appeal to math all the time. Every time you add up Kobe's points...you are doing math. That's all that matters though...we are stuck in the past in which ppg is all that matters.

But then we can't even bring up ppg for Kobe and Dirk in the playoffs because Dirk is higher. So we must throw out the most basic stat of them all.

Do you ever get tired of having to dodge simple facts all the time? It must get annoying...

Heavincent

11-08-2013, 02:54 AM

Kobe had more win shares than Shaq in the 2001 playoffs. He was more valuable. Those are facts! Derp.

Advanced stats man!

BlackVVaves

11-08-2013, 02:55 AM

Facts are facts.

Kobe's teams usually get worse on defense with him on the floor. Bitch gambles and misses assignments consistently.

Last time that ***** made a positive impact on defense...he was rocking the fro.

Kobe's last few All Defense selections were a joke. And, Kobe does cost his team with impromptu gambles, as well as just physically incapable of staying in front of the more athletic, quicker guards in the league the last 2-3 years.

However, Kobe still had more value on defense than Dirk, both in recent memory and, more importantly, over the span of both their careers. At one point Kobe was a premier defender in the league. That waned as he focused on being more of an offensive force, but the fact remains that he at one point in time was a top 2-3 defender at his position.

Dirk, at no point, ever was, not even close. Not even top 15 at his position.

That's both factual and empirical.

Heavincent

11-08-2013, 02:56 AM

And apparently DMAVS didn't catch the 08 season when Kobe was one of the best perimeter defenders in the league. Also doesn't remember him locking up Westbrook in 2010 playoffs.

BlackVVaves

11-08-2013, 02:58 AM

My bad. I should listen to the opinions of die hard fans of a player instead of watching for myself and looking at objective measures.

You are the same fan base that still insists Kobe is the best game winning shot maker!

I watch the games and see it differently than you....so how do we settle disputes? I'd say an objective measure that is the same for all players is a good place to start.

Like the following.

Dirk is factually a better performer in elimination games in the playoffs. That might not mean anything, but it's a fact. You can't dispute that.

And you appeal to math all the time. Every time you add up Kobe's points...you are doing math. That's all that matters though...we are stuck in the past in which ppg is all that matters.

But then we can't even bring up ppg for Kobe and Dirk in the playoffs because Dirk is higher. So we must throw out the most basic stat of them all.

Do you ever get tired of having to dodge simple facts all the time? It must get annoying...

Dirk is, statistically and therefore otherwise, a better performer in elimination games than Kobe. This is true.

How many elimination games have both been in, btw?

Harison

11-08-2013, 03:15 AM

Iverson, Nash, and Rose, since 1995 at least.
+1

DMAVS41

11-08-2013, 03:15 AM

Dirk is, statistically and therefore otherwise, a better performer in elimination games than Kobe. This is true.

How many elimination games have both been in, btw?

I think around 20 each. Similar records as well I think...

branslowski

11-08-2013, 03:18 AM

DMAVS41

11-08-2013, 03:18 AM

And apparently DMAVS didn't catch the 08 season when Kobe was one of the best perimeter defenders in the league. Also doesn't remember him locking up Westbrook in 2010 playoffs.

I thought we were ignoring stuff that doesn't suit our agenda? Right?

So I guess Dirk didn't do anything to stop Aldridge from killing Chandler and the Mavs in the Blazers series?

You see my point? You claim he has 0 impact. And you want me to accept the Westbrook stuff, but you won't accept anything I offer.

So I'm left with solely looking at things that objectively exist. Like the on/off of Kobe on defense. And RAPM...defensive errors...etc. I'll post it all...and you'll say id doesn't matter.

And on top of it you want me to talk about Kobe's positive qualities on defense? Come on now...

DMAVS41

11-08-2013, 03:25 AM

:roll: :roll: Even without the All Defensive Teams Facts, Kobe is already in stone known for his Perimeter defense and will always be known for it. Dirk ain't no where near Kobe's level. Dudes a 0 impact defensively.

Dmavs wanna talk about opinions but prop LeBron's regular season MVPs up that's voted on by sports writer's, meanwhile All-Defensive Teams are voted by NBA coaches who watch tape, coach teams and know the game....U think I'm gonna listen to one ISH poster troll over the coaches in the NBA? Hellllllll No.:roll:

I'm just telling you certain facts. What you do with them is up to you.

What is a person supposed to do with the following...just ignore it?

http://asubstituteforwar.wordpress.com/2011/05/09/kobe-bryant-the-most-overrated-defender-imaginable/

You think coaches have time to watch and track every possession mid season? They don't. Why do all these measures always seem to properly rate just about everyone except Kobe?

You'll notice that when I make a claim...I back it up with at least something. You'll notice when you make a claim...it involves throwing in ad hominem attacks to distract and merely subjective opinions with usually very little in the way of backing things up.

Or this:
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

Or this:
http://chasing23.com/the-myth-of-playoff-kobe/

I'm supposed to just pretend this shit aint reality?

And this:
http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/dirk-vs-kobe-in-elimination-games.202206832/

And this:
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?832847-Clutchness-in-elimination-games-stats-of-Jordan-Kobe

And this:
http://www.mysportslegion.com/forums/showthread.php?24229-Game-7-stats-MJ-LBJ-Kobe-Wade-Duncan-Shaq-amp-Dirk

TheMan

11-08-2013, 03:38 AM

Lebron isn't getting enough attention for you? :roll: :roll:
This is a funny zinger:oldlol:

TheMan

11-08-2013, 03:41 AM

Do you even english?

:roll: :roll:
This is a lame come back:no:

Point, if you don't have a funny come backer, let it go:facepalm

BlackVVaves

11-08-2013, 03:46 AM

I'm just telling you certain facts. What you do with them is up to you.

What is a person supposed to do with the following...just ignore it?

http://asubstituteforwar.wordpress.com/2011/05/09/kobe-bryant-the-most-overrated-defender-imaginable/

You think coaches have time to watch and track every possession mid season? They don't. Why do all these measures always seem to properly rate just about everyone except Kobe?

You'll notice that when I make a claim...I back it up with at least something. You'll notice when you make a claim...it involves throwing in ad hominem attacks to distract and merely subjective opinions with usually very little in the way of backing things up.

Or this:
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

Or this:
http://chasing23.com/the-myth-of-playoff-kobe/

I'm supposed to just pretend this shit aint reality?

And this:
http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/dirk-vs-kobe-in-elimination-games.202206832/

And this:
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?832847-Clutchness-in-elimination-games-stats-of-Jordan-Kobe

And this:
http://www.mysportslegion.com/forums/showthread.php?24229-Game-7-stats-MJ-LBJ-Kobe-Wade-Duncan-Shaq-amp-Dirk

I didn't bother browsing through this thread to avoid the typical ****ery ISH posters spew amidst their un-calculated agenda. So, what exactly is your point, that Dirk was as valuable or not valuable as Kobe in terms to defense? Or...?

I agree bringing up specifics of Kobe being stellar on defense (like against Westbrook in the 2010 playoffs) while ignoring specifics of Dirk's efforts in particular situations is the guise of an ignoramus. However, since you deal in facts, it is a fact that Kobe overall in his career, in total (particularly the first half of his career) was heads and shoulders more profound in terms of defensive impact than Dirk ever was.

Like...ever.

RoundMoundOfReb

11-08-2013, 03:51 AM

Besides the fact the games greatest player ever was a 6'5 guard. Also odd considering there has been a number of people smaller than Dirk who were better than him. And for an exclusive playoff series in his MVP year, PG Baron Davis out performed him on both ends of the floor.

CP3, Wade, LeBron, Kobe all clear superior players than their contemporary big men counterparts. Hell peak for peak, and when they faced each other in the playoffs, even Nash was possibly better than Dirk. Awkward to say the least.
Top 10 players all time there is 1 person with a listed height below 6'8... (MJ)

DMAVS41

11-08-2013, 04:02 AM

I didn't bother browsing through this thread to avoid the typical ****ery ISH posters spew amidst their un-calculated agenda. So, what exactly is your point, that Dirk was as valuable or not valuable as Kobe in terms to defense? Or...?

I agree bringing up specifics of Kobe being stellar on defense (like against Westbrook in the 2010 playoffs) while ignoring specifics of Dirk's efforts in particular situations is the guise of an ignoramus. However, since you deal in facts, it is a fact that Kobe overall in his career, in total (particularly the first half of his career) was heads and shoulders more profound in terms of defensive impact than Dirk ever was.

Like...ever.

My point was simple. Dirk isn't a 0 impact defender. He's been better than people say he is.

I'd say I think Kobe's impact defensively is absurdly over-stated...even in the early years, but it really doesn't matter to me.

If someone is going to make a claim...like Dirk being a 0 impact defender...or that Kobe is a great defender...you need more than a biased opinion.

When I say Kobe is over-rated defensively...I provide objective information for that.

I rarely see people provide objective information about Dirk on these claims. Although it's out there. Dirk is NOT a great defender. He's been a slightly above average individual defender and solid, but limited team defender.

I've never said otherwise. I just find it funny that he has supposed no impact...but when you look at all the objective data from Kobe all the way back in 02 to present. He's literally a no impact defender. Does that mean he is actually? I don't know...but it's enough to say that his supposed great defensive impact is grossly over-stated as all the truly elite defenders see real impact in the measurable things.

NumberSix

11-08-2013, 04:07 AM

This is a lame come back:no:

Point, if you don't have a funny come backer, let it go:facepalm
It was an inside joke that I ended up being wrong on. The guy I said it to was the only person who would even understand it.

TheMan

11-08-2013, 04:10 AM

Bingo.

Just from his generation I've seen better runs from: Wade, Kobe, LeBron, Duncan and probably soon Durant or Chris Paul.

Dirks 2011 was nice, it isn't legend status.

Mavs won as a team and got huge contributions from many guys who wouldn't ordinarily provide them on that level.
Let's also keep in mind that LeBron played terrible that Finals, if he played decent (not even great, just decent), Heat win.

midatlantic09

11-08-2013, 09:55 AM

Nash
Nash
Nash

Puts up Deron Williams numbers (along with no defense) and the guy wins TWO MVP awards...ridiculous.

bagelred

11-08-2013, 10:28 AM

Certaintly in recent memory, Steve Nash's MVP selections are ridiculous. Especially the 2nd one.

guy

11-08-2013, 10:30 AM

I'd probably say Nash in 06 was the worst if I had to choose. Didn't lead his team to an amazing record, only 3rd best in his conference and 4th overall, which is still pretty high but still 9 games behind first. Dirk led his team to a better record by 6 games, all while being just as good or better statistically and not having really that great of a supporting cast either. And Lebron and Kobe both had historically great individual seasons while overachieving with pretty bad supporting casts. There wasn't a great combination of individual dominance + team success that year, and in that case, I'd take either a player that led his team to great team success i.e. 60 or more wins, or the player that individually was historically amazing and still led his team to wins. I'm not sure there's another MVP in history where I'd say I would've chose 3 other players ahead of him.

LAZERUSS

11-08-2013, 10:35 PM

CLEARLY Russell beating Chamberlain in '62. Wilt's '62 season was probably the greatest single season, by any player in a major professional team sport, in sports history.

Furthermore, Wilt not only won ROY in '60, he easily outvoted Russell for MVP. Take a look at Russell and Wilt's stats for that season, and their team records. Then, compare them again in '62. Aside from Chamberlain being considerably more dominant, everything else was the same. So how did Russell win in '62?

BTW, Chamberlain was voted first-team All-NBA ahead of Russell in that '62 season.

Deuce Bigalow

11-08-2013, 11:45 PM