Current players only, who would you take over Prime Pippen?

[scm5]

Mine is a short list: Lebron, Durant, CP3, and Anthony Davis.

EDIT: took out Paul George

[crunk-juice]

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/there-be-a-shit-storm-a-brewin.jpg

[Teanett]

Lebron. that's it.

Paul George? i like him but Pippen has been doing what George did for the last week for almost a decade.

[kennethgriffin]

Probably only lebron, paul george and chris paul

Its pretty sad that the 2nd best wing player from the 90s played on jordans team

[scm5]

Lebron. that's it.

Paul George? i like him but Pippen has been doing what George did for the last week for almost a decade.

Fair enough, I think it's a toss up. Paul George is only 23 and has the potential to be better than Pippen ever was. Pippen was a better defender to be sure, but George is every bit as versatile and not a slouch on D.

I guess you're right though, I would take Pippen's proven record and leadership over George's. I'll edit my list.

[kshutts1]

Assuming we are starting the team with Pippen, or whichever star we name, I'd only choose Lebron and Durant over him.

Getting in to team fit, etc, a few more names may crop up, but not many.

[scm5]

Probably only lebron, paul george and chris paul

Its pretty sad that the 2nd best wing player from the 90s played on jordans team

Durant?!

Also, Anthony Davis is looking like the second coming of KG/Duncan. He's a beast defensively and the league's one true hope of having another dominant big.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

LeBron James
Kevin Durant
Chris Paul

[unbreakable]

yall overrating the HELL out of chris paul LMAO

50 yr old pippen led the blazers to game 7 of the WCF against shaq/kobe. chris paul hasnt sniffed that kind of greatness , let alone 6 rings.

LMAO.

Lebron is the only player right now Id take over Prime Pippen ...maybe Anthony Davis if you can tell me his future is HOF level. .. maybe Kobe if he's on a championship level team and not surrounded by scrubs.

but CHRIS PAUL?? LMAO :oldlol:

[kennethgriffin]

People saying durant are clueless


Not only was pippen a the best wing defender . He was also a deadly scorer and post player. Was the bulls main play maker and leading assist man for every single title. He could play and defend 4 positions. Abd hes a great leader. Durant is getting exposed as a one dimensional scorer lately who cant carry a team..

[NumberSix]

LeBron. That's the only one I would for sure take over Pippen.

[kennethgriffin]

Jordans absolute best competition was on his side at his position/wing

Pretty sad when you really think about it

[scm5]

yall overrating the HELL out of chris paul LMAO

50 yr old pippen led the blazers to game 7 of the WCF against shaq/kobe. chris paul hasnt sniffed that kind of greatness , let alone 6 rings.

LMAO.

Lebron is the only player right now Id take over Prime Pippen ...maybe Anthony Davis if you can tell me his future is HOF level. .. maybe Kobe if he's on a championship level team and not surrounded by scrubs.

CHRIS PAUL LMAO :oldlol:

I understand your view of CP3, I just don't think it's merited.

He's had some pretty trash teams aside from the current Clippers. He had no help last season during the playoffs with Griffin injured and playing like a little bitch.

Last postseason is a prime example of how much spacing matters. Lack of shooters really hurt.

[The Iron Fist]

Nobody

[unbreakable]

I understand your view of CP3, I just don't think it's merited.


Last postseason is a prime example of how much spacing matters. Lack of shooters really hurt.

Paul is great but taking him over Pippen is borderline blasphemous.

[imdaman99]

OK lets not overrate Pippen. He was great in the 90s, but that's because he was BETA supreme. When he had to play alpha, he benched himself in a playoff game because PJax chose to go to another player with the season on the line. Sure Pippen might have been the best #2 (or close 2nd to Kobe) ever, but he was not gonna take his team to rings without MJ.

There haven't been too many people currently that took their team all the way without elite help though.

[scm5]

Jordans absolute best competition was on his side at his position/wing

Pretty sad when you really think about it

Stop. This isn't a thread trying to detract from Jordan.

Aside from that, there was Clyde, Dominique, and Payton.

Jordan also thrived in an era with some of the most dominant bigs the league has seen. I would take a LOT of those bigs over Pippen. I would argue that because of the level of competition from the bigs, Jordan's era was much tougher than today's league.

[unbreakable]

but he was not gonna take his team to rings without MJ.

.

you a fraud.
explain oldass pippen leading the blazers to game 7? thats what i thought. sit down, rookie.

[crunk-juice]

I'd take Chris Paul over Pippen and run away laughing.


please note I did not see Pippen play.

[kshutts1]

People saying durant are clueless


Not only was pippen a the best wing defender . He was also a deadly scorer and post player. Was the bulls main play maker and leading assist man for every single title. He could play and defend 4 positions. Abd hes a great leader. Durant is getting exposed as a one dimensional scorer lately who cant carry a team..
Durant is well on his way to being an all-time great scorer/shooter, two things that Pip can not boast. I love defense as much as the next guy, but watch a current Bulls or Grizzlies game and tell me that having one person that can go out and just torch the other team for 40-50+ is not insanely valuable. Not to mention that Durant is not a bad defender; just obviously not on Pip's level.

You do have a great point, though, that Durant is "getting exposed" without WB. I was quite shocked at how much his production had fallen off, but then again, such a small sample size to make a fully informed decision.

[scm5]

Paul is great but taking him over Pippen is borderline blasphemous.

No, it's really not. CP3 is one of the most clutch, levelheaded players in the league. He's a true leader and his lack of success has less to do with himself than it has to do with his teams.

There's a fine line between overrating and underrating Pippen.

[imdaman99]

you a fraud.
explain oldass pippen leading the blazers to game 7? thats what i thought. sit down, rookie.
Yes, I'm a fraud. That was a stacked Blazers team.
And in the 4th quarter, the team took on Scottie's personality. Dear in headlights in the big moments :rockon:

[tpols]

Lebron's the only one who has an undisputed case.

Fringe candidates:
Durant
Paul
Wade

[kshutts1]

Lebron's the only one who has an undisputed case.

Fringe candidates:
Durant
Paul
Wade
I went to quote your post, and agree 100%, but it looks like I didn't see your "fringe" list, of which I disagree.

I agree that Lebron is the only one with an undisputed case, and a "fringe candidate" I would only accept Durant. I don't understand the argument for Paul, and Wade is pretty laughable at this point.

[unbreakable]

hell id take prime tony kukoc over current wade

[scm5]

OK lets not overrate Pippen. He was great in the 90s, but that's because he was BETA supreme. When he had to play alpha, he benched himself in a playoff game because PJax chose to go to another player with the season on the line. Sure Pippen might have been the best #2 (or close 2nd to Kobe) ever, but he was not gonna take his team to rings without MJ.

There haven't been too many people currently that took their team all the way without elite help though.

Are you kidding me?!

Pippen lead the Bulls to 55 wins without Jordan.

This is what he had to work with:

Horace Grant
BJ Armstron
Toni Kukoc
Steve Kerr
Luc Longley (lol for mentioning him, but he came late in the season in a trade for Stacy King)

He also nearly made it into the ECF.

How old are you?!

If you watched Pippen at ALL, he didn't play like a Beta and he sure as hell never had the demeanor of a beta. He was a straight bad ass that did what it took to win games.

[Greg Oden 50]

LEBRON :roll:

[scm5]

Durant is well on his way to being an all-time great scorer/shooter, two things that Pip can not boast. I love defense as much as the next guy, but watch a current Bulls or Grizzlies game and tell me that having one person that can go out and just torch the other team for 40-50+ is not insanely valuable. Not to mention that Durant is not a bad defender; just obviously not on Pip's level.

You do have a great point, though, that Durant is "getting exposed" without WB. I was quite shocked at how much his production had fallen off, but then again, such a small sample size to make a fully informed decision.

It surprises me that even with a player as closely followed as Durant, posters don't know much about Durant.

Durant has always started off the season slow, with or without Westbrook. He's notorious for it.

[scm5]

hell id take prime tony kukoc over current wade

...

[kshutts1]

It surprises me that even with a player as closely followed as Durant, posters don't know much about Durant.

Durant has always started off the season slow, with or without Westbrook. He's notorious for it.
I don't pay attention to such things.

That makes sense, though, since Durant was more than fine last year in the playoffs without WB.

[imdaman99]

Are you kidding me?!

Pippen lead the Bulls to 55 wins without Jordan.

This is what he had to work with:

Horace Grant
BJ Armstron
Toni Kukoc
Steve Kerr
Luc Longley (lol for mentioning him, but he came late in the season in a trade for Stacy King)

He also nearly made it into the ECF.

How old are you?!

If you watched Pippen at ALL, he didn't play like a Beta and he sure as hell never had the demeanor of a beta. He was a straight bad ass that did what it took to win games.
Now I'm not gonna say that Bulls team was stacked...but it was a winning culture with a winning coach. Plus BJ and Grant were all-stars (laughable, but true). Scottie did do whatever it took to win games, he played clutch D. But he did not have that late in the game takeover attitude.

I did say at the end of my post, that not many players even currently won it all without elite help. Who do we have the in the past 10 years? Dirk? He had a very good overall team around him, but no one that was considered elite. Duncan? TP and MG. Kobe? Gasol and... whoever.

So Scottie was the glue guy to those teams. I'm sure all his teammates loved him more than MJ, but that was a gutless move by him to bench himself at the end of a playoff game. I don't care how much he apologized for it, he quit on the team in a playoff game.

[tpols]

I went to quote your post, and agree 100%, but it looks like I didn't see your "fringe" list, of which I disagree.

I agree that Lebron is the only one with an undisputed case, and a "fringe candidate" I would only accept Durant. I don't understand the argument for Paul, and Wade is pretty laughable at this point.
Actually I would never ever take Paul either.. but Wade could come back strong. Im probably overeacting from last game though when he looked prime again.

[scm5]

I don't pay attention to such things.

That makes sense, though, since Durant was more than fine last year in the playoffs without WB.

I only follow because of fantasy basketball.

Durant is still doing really well this year because of his FT's though.

[scm5]

So Scottie was the glue guy to those teams. I'm sure all his teammates loved him more than MJ, but that was a gutless move by him to bench himself at the end of a playoff game. I don't care how much he apologized for it, he quit on the team in a playoff game.

I agree with you on that point, but if you ever watched his games his demeanor on the court was far from being a sidekick. He was a total badass on the court.

[unbreakable]

lmao pippen dominated his way to 6 rings.. anyone calling him a sidekick is ignorant of basketball.

pippen was an ALPHA MALE and a top 3 SF all time (some can argue hes the greatest SF of all time.. 6 rings dont lie)

:coleman:

[scm5]

lmao pippen dominated his way to 6 rings.. anyone calling him a sidekick is ignorant of basketball.

pippen was an ALPHA MALE and a top 3 SF all time (some can argue hes the greatest SF of all time.. 6 rings dont lie)

:coleman:

There's no arguing of Pippen over Bird or Lebron. Pippen is #3 at best.

I agree though, he never played like a sidekick and was a total badass on the court.

[NumberSix]

6 rings

[bond10]

Are you kidding me?!

Pippen lead the Bulls to 55 wins without Jordan.

This is what he had to work with:

Horace Grant
BJ Armstron
Toni Kukoc
Steve Kerr
Luc Longley (lol for mentioning him, but he came late in the season in a trade for Stacy King)

He also nearly made it into the ECF.

How old are you?!

If you watched Pippen at ALL, he didn't play like a Beta and he sure as hell never had the demeanor of a beta. He was a straight bad ass that did what it took to win games.


They made it to the ECSF...and they were pretty much the same team without Jordan. All those players weren't scrubs, they knew how to win after coming off a 3 peat. All of those players consistently improved over the championship years. Pippen is overrated on this board. Great player, but not a invincible wing defending, playmaking, superstar leader as most of you are trying to write him up to be.

[secund2nun]

Lebron, Durant, Howard, and Davis.

[97 bulls]

They made it to the ECSF...and they were pretty much the same team without Jordan. All those players weren't scrubs, they knew how to win after coming off a 3 peat. All of those players consistently improved over the championship years. Pippen is overrated on this board. Great player, but not a invincible wing defending, playmaking, superstar leader as most of you are trying to write him up to be.
The 94 Bulls were not the same team as the 93 version. Gone from the 93 team were Stacy King (mid season trade) Trent Tucker, and off course Jordan. Scott Williams, Bill Cartwright, and John Paxson barely played due to injury or age.

Pete Myers, Toni Kukoc (rookie mind you), Luc Longley, and Bill Wennington weren't on the 93 team. Come on.

[plowking]

Lebron, Durant, Howard, Davis, Paul, Rose, Westbrook, Wade,

[La Frescobaldi]

LeBron James. Of the players currently in the league that would have been in their prime? Garnett, Duncan, Bryant.

[LONGTIME]

Lebron and Durant.

[97 bulls]

People dont realize..... Scottie Pippen was considered the best perimeter player in the league once Jordan retired in 93.

Where would Paul, Rose, Durant etc be ranked with prime Olajuwan, Robinson, and Shaq?

[KOBE143]

Not including our Lawd Gawdbe, the obvious answer is none..

Prime Pippen would shit on anyone except Kobe..

[Dizzle-2k7]

Lebron, Durant, Howard, Davis, Paul, Rose, Westbrook, Wade,

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view2/1776611/shaq-laughing-o.gif

[DMAVS41]

LeBron James. Of the players currently in the league that would have been in their prime? Garnett, Duncan, Bryant.

Durant is a better player than Pippen. Prime Wade and Dirk were better as well.

Pippen is over-rated here if people are actually taking him over the likes of Dirk, Wade, and Durant.

Prime Howard was probably as good or better as well...shit

[inclinerator]

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2625675/mikewoodsonface.gif

[97 bulls]

Durant is a better player than Pippen. Prime Wade and Dirk were better as well.

Pippen is over-rated here if people are actually taking him over the likes of Dirk, Wade, and Durant.

Prime Howard was probably as good or better as well...shit
The only thing those players have over Pippen is that they're better scorers. And thats debatable cuz Im sure if they had to do what Pippen had to do, it would effect their offense as well

[lilgodfather1]

Are we talking like past their prime players? That increases my list exponentially. If not then LeBron. Seriously just LeBron over Pip for certain. There's some toss ups as well like kd, paul, and dwight. I'd love to include the old dogs.

[KG215]

People saying durant are clueless


Not only was pippen a the best wing defender . He was also a deadly scorer and post player. Was the bulls main play maker and leading assist man for every single title. He could play and defend 4 positions. Abd hes a great leader. Durant is getting exposed as a one dimensional scorer lately who cant carry a team..
Durant's better than George, that's not debatable right now even with how well George has started the season, yet you'd take George over Pippen but not Durant?

Makes sense.

[KG215]

I don't pay attention to such things.

That makes sense, though, since Durant was more than fine last year in the playoffs without WB.
Exactly. So using the extremely small 2-game sample size without Westbrook this year is silly. Especially considering it almost always takes Durant 2-3 weeks to shake off the rust and start playing at an elite level. But, like you said, he was more than fine without Westbrook in the playoffs. I mean he averaged 32-10-6 on 46% FG and 58% TS in 9 playoff games without Westbrook. If Russ had actually ended up missing 4-6 weeks as originally announced, Durant would've gotten going and started having some monster games.

[kkb_12]

Currently - only Lebron comes before Pippen. If all active players considered in their prime - Duncan and Kobe.

[DMAVS41]

The only thing those players have over Pippen is that they're better scorers. And thats debatable cuz Im sure if they had to do what Pippen had to do, it would effect their offense as well

Nah, it's more than that. Pippen was a beta. Durant, Dirk, Wade are alphas...

But keep on keeping on over-rating the **** out of Pippen

[KG215]

Currently - only Lebron comes before Pippen. If all active players considered in their prime - Duncan and Kobe.
I can't think of any logical reason as to why 2012-20?? Durant wouldn't be considered better than the best version of Pippen. Make the cutoff 2013-20?? then it becomes even less debatable in my opinion since 2013 was the first year Durant's defense was on a level better than even just average, to go along with an super-elite offensive game.

[DMAVS41]

I can't think of any logical reason as to why 2012-20?? Durant wouldn't be considered better than the best version of Pippen. Make the cutoff 2013-20?? then it becomes even less debatable in my opinion since 2013 was the first year Durant's defense was on a level better than even just average, to go along with an super-elite offensive game.

Durant is already better than Pippen ever was. Has been for a couple years now.

****ing prime Shawn Marion is closer to Pippen than Pippen is to Durant the last few years. Real talk.

[KDthunderup]

Lebron
Kevin Durant
Steven Adams

[tpols]

Nah, it's more than that. Pippen was a beta. Durant, Dirk, Wade are alphas...

But keep on keeping on over-rating the **** out of Pippen
Pippen was a beta? And.. Dirk is an alpha??


The only thing Dirk does better than Pippen is score and shoot.. he does it at a high enough level to where it evens out the incremental differences Pippen has him beat in every other area.. things like man defense, help defense, playmaking, passing, leadership(especially defensively where he anchors defenses like KG).. but overall its a wash.

Pippen was considered in the top 5ish player in the league range when he had the team to himself against guys like Drob, Hakeem, Ewing, etc. Dirk wouldve been considered no better than Pippen had he played back then.

Dirk is just a silent assasin shooting the ball.. he isnt even the competitor Pippen is. Pippen had world class pedigree and you want to call him a beta because he didnt partake as heavily in the flashiest part of the game as you like.. He would literally beat Dirk's ass though if they met. Talk about stephen Jackson getting up on Dirk.. Pippen was Jackson with more length, skill, discipline, and ferocity.




"Alpha" comes directly from the MJ/Pippen Bulls dichotomy.. MJ was an alpha not just because he scored a ton and took over games with it, but because he ripped your heart out on the floor and fed it to you. It's really just a term for aggression and competitiveness. MJ was an alpha because he was fearless and was un-punkable.

Dirk?:oldlol: Dirk is not alpha by any stretch of the word..

[DMAVS41]

Pippen was a beta? And.. Dirk is an alpha??


The only thing Dirk does better than Pippen is score and shoot.. he does it at a high enough level to where it evens out the incremental differences Pippen has him beat in every other area.. things like man defense, help defense, playmaking, passing, leadership(especially defensively where he anchors defenses like KG).. but overall its a wash.

Pippen was considered in the top 5ish player in the league range when he had the team to himself against guys like Drob, Hakeem, Ewing, etc. Dirk wouldve been considered no better than Pippen had he played back then.

Dirk is just a silent assasin shooting the ball.. he isnt even the competitor Pippen is. Pippen had world class pedigree and you want to call him a beta because he didnt partake as heavily in the flashiest part of the game as you like.. He would literally beat Dirk's ass though if they met. Talk about stephen Jackson getting up on Dirk.. Pippen was Jackson with more length, skill, discipline, and ferocity.




"Alpha" comes directly from the MJ/Pippen Bulls dichotomy.. MJ was an alpha not just because he scored a ton and took over games with it, but because he ripped your heart out on the floor and fed it to you. It's really just a term for aggression and competitiveness. MJ was an alpha because he was fearless and was un-punkable.

Dirk?:oldlol: Dirk is not alpha by any stretch of the word..

Keep on keeping on tpols. Pippen was not cut out to be the main franchise player on a team for his career.

And I actually like Pippen. But he's a class below the likes of championship first options like Dirk. Does it ever get old bringing up the Jackson stuff? I guess we should ignore Dirk raping the Duncan led Spurs in the playoffs numerous times...and destroying the KG led Wolves...etc. But those guys are scrubs to the legendary Stephen Jackson that happens to guard Dirk well. Heaven forbid a player has a poor series (20/11)...LOL

Again...prime Shawn Marion is closer to Pippen than you think.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

LeBron and maybe Durant. I'd have to see more from Paul George, Love, and a few others.

Save for 2011, peak Pippen is every bit as good as Dirk, BTW.

[tpols]

Again.. Pippen was considered a top 5ish player when he played with guys like Ewing, David Robinson, among others on the same tier. Dirk is not better than Patrick Ewing.. or any of those guys for that matter. He would not have been considered better than Pippen had he played in the 90s.

A 22/8/6 player who shoots higher from the field than Dirk and plays worlds better defense..

Pippen is the perimeter KG. And KG was always considered on Dirk's level throughout their careers.

[DMAVS41]

LeBron and maybe Durant. I'd have to see more from Paul George, Love, and a few others.

Save for 2011, peak Pippen is every bit as good as Dirk, BTW.

He really wasn't, but even if that were true...Dirk wins off that alone. Higher peak and then more consistent play over a longer period of time as well.

[DMAVS41]

Again.. Pippen was considered a top 5ish player when he played with guys like Ewing, David Robinson, among others on the same tier. Dirk is not better than Patrick Ewing.. or any of those guys for that matter. He would not have been considered better than Pippen had he played in the 90s.

A 22/8/6 player who shoots higher from the field than Dirk and plays worlds better defense..

Pippen is the perimeter KG. And KG was always considered on Dirk's level throughout their careers.

Well, I could not disagree more. Dirk is better than Patrick Ewing. And KG was better than Pippen.

Pippen led teams aren't winning over 50 11 straight seasons and winning the title without another all nba teammate...shit ain't happening...and you know this. Or perhaps you don't actually.

I guess the dude that plays sf that put up 22/12/2 and shot higher from the field than Dirk and played absolutely great defense was better than Dirk too...that a team with him on it would destroy Dirk in the playoffs.

Dirk could never drop 50 on a guy like that in the playoffs...

Seriously...like why hasn't anyone really ever been able to stop Dirk if it's so easy? Dirk just lucked his way into being the 8th leading playoffs scorer in NBA history...on better overall efficiency than everyone in the top 8 other than Durant?

[DMAVS41]

Paul George is about a year away from being as good as Pippen ever was...real talk

He might already be there if his offense stays this good.

[97 bulls]

Well, I could not disagree more. Dirk is better than Patrick Ewing. And KG was better than Pippen.

Pippen led teams aren't winning over 50 11 straight seasons and winning the title without another all nba teammate...shit ain't happening...and you know this. Or perhaps you don't actually.

I guess the dude that plays sf that put up 22/12/2 and shot higher from the field than Dirk and played absolutely great defense was better than Dirk too...that a team with him on it would destroy Dirk in the playoffs.

Dirk could never drop 50 on a guy like that in the playoffs...

Seriously...like why hasn't anyone really ever been able to stop Dirk if it's so easy? Dirk just lucked his way into being the 8th leading playoffs scorer in NBA history...on better overall efficiency than everyone in the top 8 other than Durant?
Based on what we saw from Pippen in 94-95, if he were to have the talent Nowitzki had for that amount of time, built around his strengths, why wouldn't he? I mean, the Bulls were on pace for 44 wins in 95. A year when he led his team in every major statistical category.

[DMAVS41]

Based on what we saw from Pippen in 94-95, if he were to have the talent Nowitzki had for that amount of time, built around his strengths, why wouldn't he? I mean, the Bulls were on pace for 44 wins in 95. A year when he led his team in every major statistical category.

I have said before I think Pippen could have been the best player on a team that wins the title, but it would either not be super clear cut, or the team would be absolutely stacked.

Also, why does Pippen get a team built around his strengths, but not Dirk? Dirk didn't have a legit 2nd option type player...and was missing a good center as well. How was 06 built around his strengths? Shit...I mean...he didn't have any good shooters outside of Terry really...and Terry was in a shooting slump from the 3 point line in the 06 playoffs.

So I'm confused as to how that team was built perfectly for Dirk. Average pg play out of Harris in terms of playmaking. Terrible perimeter defense. Weak play at center, no true 2nd option, and average shooting at best.

I mean...just not all that well built around Dirk actually.

[Dizzle-2k7]

I have said before I think Pippen could have been the best player on a team that wins the title, but it would either not be super clear cut, or the team would be absolutely stacked.



pure hate. pippen led a team of scrubs to 55 wins. pippen also led the blazers to the WCF.

prime pippen + suitable cast = contender. replace jordan with an all-star level big, and pippen grabs a few rings as well.

dirk only has 1 ring. if DIRK had pippen's HUNGER, he''d have atleast 2 (pippen wouldnt have choked to wade)

[DMAVS41]

pure hate. pippen led a team of scrubs to 55 wins. pippen also led the blazers to the WCF.

prime pippen + suitable cast = contender. replace jordan with an all-star level big, and pippen grabs a few rings as well.

dirk only has 1 ring. if DIRK had pippen's HUNGER, he''d have atleast 2 (pippen wouldnt have choked to wade)

Pippen's hunger? ROFL

Why is everything always so much "fan speak" on here. We are here to talk about basketball. Not about some BS "hunger" crap...do you know anything about Dirk? Dude is one of the most diligent and hard working players ever.

You don't think he wanted it bad enough? GTFO...

[dunksby]

People dont realize..... Scottie Pippen was considered the best perimeter player in the league once Jordan retired in 93.

Where would Paul, Rose, Durant etc be ranked with prime Olajuwan, Robinson, and Shaq?
They would be ranked better perimeter players than them?

[97 bulls]

They would be ranked better perimeter players than them?
I guess that was worded poorly. My point is that Pippen would've been arguably the best player in the league had the league at that time not had so many great centers like now.

[La Frescobaldi]

Durant is a better player than Pippen. Prime Wade and Dirk were better as well.

Pippen is over-rated here if people are actually taking him over the likes of Dirk, Wade, and Durant.

Prime Howard was probably as good or better as well...shit

Durant is not better at all. Never was, and I doubt ever will be.
Dirk yeah forgot him.
Wade is very debatable, as ISH has shown for years. Howard was never close, all-round, even in Orlando. Pippen was a monster, far more complete than those players. Scoring is important but it's only a tiny part.
Not one of those guys were better at defense than Pippen. Well... Howard was at one point.

[ILLsmak]

If you mean players now in their current form, them yeah Lebron and that's about it. Pippen was pretty good, but it's more that most people in the NBA now other than Bron are on the cusp of being good or declining.

KD is close, but I don't trust him enough yet.

-Smak

[SamuraiSWISH]

Ewing > Dirk
D. Rob > Dirk
D. Rob = Duncan
Ewing = Duncan
Barkely > Dirk
Malone > Dirk
KG > Pippen
Barkely > KG
Malone > KG
KG > Dirk
Pippen = Dirk
Wade > Pippen
Kobe > Pippen
Durant > Dirk
Durant > Pippen
Wade > Dirk
Kobe > Dirk
Duncan > Dirk

[97 bulls]

I have said before I think Pippen could have been the best player on a team that wins the title, but it would either not be super clear cut, or the team would be absolutely stacked.

Also, why does Pippen get a team built around his strengths, but not Dirk? Dirk didn't have a legit 2nd option type player...and was missing a good center as well. How was 06 built around his strengths? Shit...I mean...he didn't have any good shooters outside of Terry really...and Terry was in a shooting slump from the 3 point line in the 06 playoffs.

So I'm confused as to how that team was built perfectly for Dirk. Average pg play out of Harris in terms of playmaking. Terrible perimeter defense. Weak play at center, no true 2nd option, and average shooting at best.

I mean...just not all that well built around Dirk actually.
I see no reason why the Bulls don't win in 94 with a better player in place of Jordan. Perhaps Mitch Richmond. And Pippen would still be the clear cut best player.

Also, what kind of number 2 does Nowitzki need? Michael Finley was one of the better SGs in the league at that time. He was giving the Mavs 20 ppg with solid defense and rebounding. Then he had Nash. Who was contributing 17/7 in only 33 minutes. And will be going to the Hall of Fame.

The Mavs didn't need a domiant center because the league didn't have great centers in the 00s.

[KG215]

Durant is not better at all. Never was, and I doubt ever will be.
Please, explain.

[guy]

Lebron
Durant
CP3

Possibly
Paul George (if he keeps this up)
Derrick Rose (if he gets back to normal and can resemble what he did in preseason where he looked better then ever)
Steph Curry (if he can stay healthy)

[DMAVS41]

I see no reason why the Bulls don't win in 94 with a better player in place of Jordan. Perhaps Mitch Richmond. And Pippen would still be the clear cut best player.

Also, what kind of number 2 does Nowitzki need? Michael Finley was one of the better SGs in the league at that time. He was giving the Mavs 20 ppg with solid defense and rebounding. Then he had Nash. Who was contributing 17/7 in only 33 minutes. And will be going to the Hall of Fame.

The Mavs didn't need a domiant center because the league didn't have great centers in the 00s.

Finley wasn't even on the roster in 06 dude. LOL

And anything is possible. I think I've actually used Ritchmond as a good example of a player that would mesh well with Pippen.

We don't know what would or wouldn't happen for sure. Put it this way...I feel a hell of a lot more comfortable if Pippen is my number 2 or...1b player rather than clear cut best player on team.

[DMAVS41]

Ewing > Dirk
D. Rob > Dirk
D. Rob = Duncan
Ewing = Duncan
Barkely > Dirk
Malone > Dirk
KG > Pippen
Barkely > KG
Malone > KG
KG > Dirk
Pippen = Dirk
Wade > Pippen
Kobe > Pippen
Durant > Dirk
Durant > Pippen
Wade > Dirk
Kobe > Dirk
Duncan > Dirk

Seriously hope you are trolling with some of these.

Ewing = Duncan

Shit aint right...:facepalm

[chazzy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tObgS6uUVjQ

[97 bulls]

Finley wasn't even on the roster in 06 dude. LOL

And anything is possible. I think I've actually used Ritchmond as a good example of a player that would mesh well with Pippen.

We don't know what would or wouldn't happen for sure. Put it this way...I feel a hell of a lot more comfortable if Pippen is my number 2 or...1b player rather than clear cut best player on team.
I didn't know you were only referencing 06. I went through and named key players that played alongside Niwitzki. And that was based on your assertion that he didnt have a competent number two guy.

And I understand your point on choosing or not choosing Pippen in certain situations. I'd say its mainly due to Pippen not having a full 10-12 seasons of trial and error to get it right. All I can do is base my view on what I've seen Pippen do when in a situation similar (not exactly mind you cuz thats impossible) to other great players like Kobe Bryant (07 I believe) and Dywane Wade (09) vs Scottie Pippens 95 season pre Jordans return. I really dont see a difference.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Seriously hope you are trolling with some of these.

Ewing = Duncan

Shit aint right...:facepalmWhy? Because Duncan won 1 ring without significant offensive help from Tony Parker, and Manu Ginobili? I'm pretty sure Ewing playing alongside D Rob, or TP and Ginobili could've won under similar context. What other ones got your undies twisted?

[La Frescobaldi]

Please, explain.

There might be a better defensive small forward in League history than Scottie Pippen but I can't think of one right off hand. There's nobody else that can play defense like that and still get you 20 ppg.
OK, Havlicek could do it. If we call James a small forward, that makes 3 guys. Bird's defense is tragically underrated. Pip sniffing some rarified air.

There have been dozens of unstoppable small forwards like Kevin Durant who didn't especially play strong defense, or even good defense. I get it that a guy has to play lower energy defense if he's a #1 option offensively. But Durant has had Westbrook beside him and his defense is still _eak.

I'd love to see Durant/ Westbrook playing at the levels of Pippen/Jordan someday. I hope they do. They are young and they can have the league at their feet.... maybe someday we'll be talking about how W&D had to wait until Kobe & Duncan & James had to retire before they could run the league, just like Jordan had to wait for Showtime & Pistons & Celtics to get old.

But Pippen was playing elite defense by his 2nd season and I haven't seen anything approaching elite from Durant on that end after 7 seasons.

Pippen getting you 20 & 6 and all-time great defense
is considerably better than
Durant getting you 25 & 6 and teams scorching you over and over at the sF.
P >>> D

[NumberSix]

Seriously hope you are trolling with some of these.

Ewing = Duncan

Shit aint right...:facepalm
Ewing is stupidly underrated. Does anyone honestly believe that Duncan would have won a chip on any of those Knicks teams? 92 is the only year you could make a case. Does anyone doubt that Ewing could win on those 99, 03, 05 and 07 spurs teams?

[guy]

Ewing is stupidly underrated. Does anyone honestly believe that Duncan would have won a chip on any of those Knicks teams? 92 is the only year you could make a case. Does anyone doubt that Ewing could win on those 99, 03, 05 and 07 spurs teams?

Wouldn't call Ewing equal to Duncan but I definitely agree with most of this.

[97 bulls]

There might be a better defensive small forward in League history than Scottie Pippen but I can't think of one right off hand. There's nobody else that can play defense like that and still get you 20 ppg.
OK, Havlicek could do it. If we call James a small forward, that makes 3 guys. Bird's defense is tragically underrated. Pip sniffing some rarified air.

There have been dozens of unstoppable small forwards like Kevin Durant who didn't especially play strong defense, or even good defense. I get it that a guy has to play lower energy defense if he's a #1 option offensively. But Durant has had Westbrook beside him and his defense is still _eak.

I'd love to see Durant/ Westbrook playing at the levels of Pippen/Jordan someday. I hope they do. They are young and they can have the league at their feet.... maybe someday we'll be talking about how W&D had to wait until Kobe & Duncan & James had to retire before they could run the league, just like Jordan had to wait for Showtime & Pistons & Celtics to get old.

But Pippen was playing elite defense by his 2nd season and I haven't seen anything approaching elite from Durant on that end after 7 seasons.

Pippen getting you 20 & 6 and all-time great defense
is considerably better than
Durant getting you 25 & 6 and teams scorching you over and over at the sF.
P >>> D

maybe someday we'll be talking about how W&D had to wait until Kobe & Duncan & James had to retire before they could run the league, just like Jordan had to wait for Showtime & Pistons & Celtics to get old.
I often see this comment made by Celtics, Laker, and Piston fans. Granted the Bulls never beat the Celtics when they were playing at a high level. But who was old on the Lakers and Pistons in 91?

[La Frescobaldi]

I often see this comment made by Celtics, Laker, and Piston fans. Granted the Bulls never beat the Celtics when they were playing at a high level. But who was old on the Lakers and Pistons in 91?
'91 Lakers were not Showtime. Rambis was gone (people disregard that role player but Rambis had powerful D), Worthy was old & getting injured more and more, Cooper was gone. Magic was the only thing they had still going at that pace.
Vlade Divac is a very far drop from Kareem Abdul Jabbar.
Bird never recovered from his back injury and the Celtics with a dragging Bird were not going to win rings.
Pistons in '91 were still a valid opponent for the Bulls but by & large, the point still stands. In the case of the Pistons, it looked to me like they had lost psychological edge and that happened because P Jax > Daly

I was never a Pistons fan nor a Celtics fan how dare you :lol

[NumberSix]

I don't get why some people can't understand that there's no such thing as a team that's "good enough to win" like that's some kind of universal qualifier. You're either good enough to win in that specific year or you're not.

You can't just say something like "this player with these other players should be good enough to win a chip". Nope. Not if there are better teams at the same time.

The 2009 Lakers were good enough to win in 2009. Would they be good enough to win in 2012? No. The 2004 Pistons were good enough to win in 2004. Would they be good enough to win in 2001? He'll no.

[DMAVS41]

Ewing is stupidly underrated. Does anyone honestly believe that Duncan would have won a chip on any of those Knicks teams? 92 is the only year you could make a case. Does anyone doubt that Ewing could win on those 99, 03, 05 and 07 spurs teams?


Uhhh....yes. Duncan would have won with some of those Knicks teams.

And no, Ewing is definitely not winning in 03. That is ****ing laughable. The under-rating of some players here is getting out of control.

[guy]

Uhhh....yes. Duncan would have won with some of those Knicks teams.

And no, Ewing is definitely not winning in 03. That is ****ing laughable. The under-rating of some players here is getting out of control.

The Knicks are still losing to the Bulls with Duncan instead of Ewing. Maybe they would've beaten the Rockets. Maybe.

[97 bulls]

'91 Lakers were not Showtime. Rambis was gone (people disregard that role player but Rambis had powerful D), Worthy was old & getting injured more and more, Cooper was gone. Magic was the only thing they had still going at that pace.
Vlade Divac is a very far drop from Kareem Abdul Jabbar.
Bird never recovered from his back injury and the Celtics with a dragging Bird were not going to win rings.
Pistons in '91 were still a valid opponent for the Bulls but by & large, the point still stands. In the case of the Pistons, it looked to me like they had lost psychological edge and that happened because P Jax > Daly

I was never a Pistons fan nor a Celtics fan how dare you :lol
Ok but why not apply the same standard to all the 80s teams? The Celts never beat the "Bad Boy" Pistons. Rodman was a rookie, so was John Salley. Aguire wasn't there Joe Dumars was young.

The Lakers beat an injured Celtic team in 87.

There was nothing special about the Celtics run in 86.

Why the double standard?



was never a Pistons fan nor a Celtics fan how dare you*
Lol my bad bro. I know thats sacrilegious.

[Young X]

Uhhh....yes. Duncan would have won with some of those Knicks teams.

And no, Ewing is definitely not winning in 03. That is ****ing laughable. The under-rating of some players here is getting out of control.What team would they lose to? 44 win Suns? 49 win Nets? Dirkless Mavs? 50 win Lakers?

[La Frescobaldi]

Ok but why not apply the same standard to all the 80s teams? The Celts never beat the "Bad Boy" Pistons. Rodman was a rookie, so was John Salley. Aguire wasn't there Joe Dumars was young.

The Lakers beat an injured Celtic team in 87.

There was nothing special about the Celtics run in 86.

Why the double standard?



Lol my bad bro. I know thats sacrilegious.

no double standard from me... at least, not on purpose! All those things are perfectly true.

[DMAVS41]

I didn't know you were only referencing 06. I went through and named key players that played alongside Niwitzki. And that was based on your assertion that he didnt have a competent number two guy.

And I understand your point on choosing or not choosing Pippen in certain situations. I'd say its mainly due to Pippen not having a full 10-12 seasons of trial and error to get it right. All I can do is base my view on what I've seen Pippen do when in a situation similar (not exactly mind you cuz thats impossible) to other great players like Kobe Bryant (07 I believe) and Dywane Wade (09) vs Scottie Pippens 95 season pre Jordans return. I really dont see a difference.

Because I was talking about 06 in my post your responded to. That is why.

I think Dirk had legit chances to win in 03, 06, and 11. I don't consider any of those teams anything other than really good rosters. Absolutely nothing special or great in my opinion.

So we of course disagree on the strength of those teams. I don't think they were that good. I think they relied on over-rated regular season star players and weren't built well around Dirk at all actually. A lot of Dirk's teams actually lacked exactly what you would want. Which is an all nba guard and a legit defensive center that can rebound.

So I just can't agree with anyone saying Dirk had perfectly built teams around him. I think the exact opposite. I think Cuban and Nellie just threw money at anything that moved and hoped for the best. And it was only out of dumb luck that the 11 team came together. And they admit as such...they wanted Al Jefferson and Chandler just kind of fell in their lap.

But before 11...you either had run and gun teams playing no defense with Najera playing center...or horribly inept perimeter defensive teams without a legit 2nd star and weak center play (outside of Diop here and there)

A great team for Dirk would have been something like;

Billups (when he was good), Deng type player, and Chandler type center

So similar to the 11 squad, but obviously it would be nice to have players in their primes as well. And that just isn't much to ask for considering the kind of rosters winning titles year in year out. Shaq/Kobe, Duncan/Manu/Parker, loaded Pistons, Shaq/Wade, KG/Allen/Pierce, Kobe/Gasol/Odom, Lebron/Wade/Bosh

I mean...it's really too much to ask for Billups/Deng/Dirk/Chandler???

I just don't understand why a player like Dirk is expected to win with less...and then gets his clearly inferior historically supporting cast thrown in his face when credit comes up. I mean...how much credit can KG get in 08 then? Kobe early on? Kobe from 09 and 10? Shit...nobody ever even mentions how great Ariza was. 11/4/2 on 61% TS and played quality defense. Nobody mentions him...like, ever. And I have to hear about how great Barea and his 9/2/3 50% TS and awful defense (Mavs defense got nearly 15 points worse with him on the floor...just awful) was this the reason the Mavs won? Come on now...

[La Frescobaldi]

Because I was talking about 06 in my post your responded to. That is why.

I think Dirk had legit chances to win in 03, 06, and 11. I don't consider any of those teams anything other than really good rosters. Absolutely nothing special or great in my opinion.

So we of course disagree on the strength of those teams. I don't think they were that good. I think they relied on over-rated regular season star players and weren't built well around Dirk at all actually. A lot of Dirk's teams actually lacked exactly what you would want. Which is an all nba guard and a legit defensive center that can rebound.

So I just can't agree with anyone saying Dirk had perfectly built teams around him. I think the exact opposite. I think Cuban and Nellie just threw money at anything that moved and hoped for the best. And it was only out of dumb luck that the 11 team came together. And they admit as such...they wanted Al Jefferson and Chandler just kind of fell in their lap.

But before 11...you either had run and gun teams playing no defense with Najera playing center...or horribly inept perimeter defensive teams without a legit 2nd star and weak center play (outside of Diop here and there)

A great team for Dirk would have been something like;

Billups (when he was good), Deng type player, and Chandler type center

So similar to the 11 squad, but obviously it would be nice to have players in their primes as well. And that just isn't much to ask for considering the kind of rosters winning titles year in year out. Shaq/Kobe, Duncan/Manu/Parker, loaded Pistons, Shaq/Wade, KG/Allen/Pierce, Kobe/Gasol/Odom, Lebron/Wade/Bosh

I mean...it's really too much to ask for Billups/Deng/Dirk/Chandler???

I just don't understand why a player like Dirk is expected to win with less...and then gets his clearly inferior historically supporting cast thrown in his face when credit comes up. I mean...how much credit can KG get in 08 then? Kobe early on? Kobe from 09 and 10? Shit...nobody ever even mentions how great Ariza was. 11/4/2 on 61% TS and played quality defense. Nobody mentions him...like, ever. And I have to hear about how great Barea and his 9/2/3 50% TS and awful defense (Mavs defense got nearly 15 points worse with him on the floor...just awful) was this the reason the Mavs won? Come on now...

Dirk was Rick Barry-esque. He was going at it like Dennis Johnson no question

[bond10]

lmao at the people overrating Pippen.

[97 bulls]

Because I was talking about 06 in my post your responded to. That is why.

I think Dirk had legit chances to win in 03, 06, and 11. I don't consider any of those teams anything other than really good rosters. Absolutely nothing special or great in my opinion.

So we of course disagree on the strength of those teams. I don't think they were that good. I think they relied on over-rated regular season star players and weren't built well around Dirk at all actually. A lot of Dirk's teams actually lacked exactly what you would want. Which is an all nba guard and a legit defensive center that can rebound.

So I just can't agree with anyone saying Dirk had perfectly built teams around him. I think the exact opposite. I think Cuban and Nellie just threw money at anything that moved and hoped for the best. And it was only out of dumb luck that the 11 team came together. And they admit as such...they wanted Al Jefferson and Chandler just kind of fell in their lap.

But before 11...you either had run and gun teams playing no defense with Najera playing center...or horribly inept perimeter defensive teams without a legit 2nd star and weak center play (outside of Diop here and there)

A great team for Dirk would have been something like;

Billups (when he was good), Deng type player, and Chandler type center

So similar to the 11 squad, but obviously it would be nice to have players in their primes as well. And that just isn't much to ask for considering the kind of rosters winning titles year in year out. Shaq/Kobe, Duncan/Manu/Parker, loaded Pistons, Shaq/Wade, KG/Allen/Pierce, Kobe/Gasol/Odom, Lebron/Wade/Bosh

I mean...it's really too much to ask for Billups/Deng/Dirk/Chandler???

I just don't understand why a player like Dirk is expected to win with less...and then gets his clearly inferior historically supporting cast thrown in his face when credit comes up. I mean...how much credit can KG get in 08 then? Kobe early on? Kobe from 09 and 10? Shit...nobody ever even mentions how great Ariza was. 11/4/2 on 61% TS and played quality defense. Nobody mentions him...like, ever. And I have to hear about how great Barea and his 9/2/3 50% TS and awful defense (Mavs defense got nearly 15 points worse with him on the floor...just awful) was this the reason the Mavs won? Come on now...
To be honest, as much as you'd probably hate to admit, we're essentially stating the same thing. I've always maintained that players like Russell, Jordan, Bryant, Bird, Magic, James, etc won because they were great players leading other great players. I'd agree Nowitzki never had that kind of talent year in and out. But neither did Pippen. Doesn't make them worse than other players. Thats been my point since we've debated.

[97 bulls]

lmao at the people overrating Pippen.
Overrating? In 94 and 95 Pippen finished top three in MVP (94) and DPOY (95). How many players are capable of that in the history of the league? Off the top of my Head James, Jordan, Chamberlain, Russell, Olajuwan, Duncan and Robinson.

[comerb]

Lebron and Durant. CP3 is probably the next closest.

[bond10]

Overrating? In 94 and 95 Pippen finished top three in MVP (94) and DPOY (95). How many players are capable of that in the history of the league? Off the top of my Head James, Jordan, Chamberlain, Russell, Olajuwan, Duncan and Robinson.

Overrated doesn't mean he was some average player. He was certainly a great player no doubt. But you're overrating the shit outta him, making assumptions that he'd be leading a championship team ALL based on one season...


I guess that was worded poorly. My point is that Pippen would've been arguably the best player in the league had the league at that time not had so many great centers like now.


Based on what we saw from Pippen in 94-95, if he were to have the talent Nowitzki had for that amount of time, built around his strengths, why wouldn't he? I mean, the Bulls were on pace for 44 wins in 95. A year when he led his team in every major statistical category.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda....

And you seem to think Pippen's defense > elite scoring. Scoring is a huge part of the game too pal. Durant's scoring is just as important as Pippen's overall play.


The only thing those players have over Pippen is that they're better scorers. And thats debatable cuz Im sure if they had to do what Pippen had to do, it would effect their offense as well

Pippen's great, but let's not put him somewhere he doesn't belong based on hypotheticals and acting like scoring is some side skill.

:coleman:

[jstern]

Pippen was a great player underrated when he played, but he is being severely overrated in this thread. Especially because of the agenda of some.

[DMAVS41]

To be honest, as much as you'd probably hate to admit, we're essentially stating the same thing. I've always maintained that players like Russell, Jordan, Bryant, Bird, Magic, James, etc won because they were great players leading other great players. I'd agree Nowitzki never had that kind of talent year in and out. But neither did Pippen. Doesn't make them worse than other players. Thats been my point since we've debated.

I've always agreed with that point. I've been making it here a long time...

My point is that there seems to be an even worse double standard with Dirk. He won with less than virtually all those championship first options I listed other than Duncan in 03 and Lebron in 13 (debatable)...yet I don't hear the same backlash. In fact, Dirk gets backlash for his teammates even though they just weren't that good at all comparatively.

My point with Pippen and you has always been that you over-rate all around play. I'm telling...some players that were more one sided or one dimensional are just much better. Take Marion for example. Dude could get you 20 ppg and 12 rebounds and 2 assists and play elite defense. Not just quality defense...like all time great sf type defense. Not quite Pippen level, but close enough to warrant comparisons at times. Shit Hubie Brown was just comparing them earlier this year. And he just wasn't on Dirk's level. That doesn't mean Marion wasn't really good, but he just wasn't Dirk.

Obviously I think Pippen was better than Marion, but it speaks to the larger point.

We just see the game much differently. You think Pippen was better than Magic and Dirk...and I think taking Pippen over Magic is like top 5 dumbest things one could say about the NBA within reason. So I honestly don't know what else to say. I respect your opinion about circumstances and help, I just think you go down the wrong path with Pippen.

[pauk]

*some dude in Miami* and maybe Durant...

[97 bulls]

Overrated doesn't mean he was some average player. He was certainly a great player no doubt. But you're overrating the shit outta him, making assumptions that he'd be leading a championship team ALL based on one season...





Woulda, coulda, shoulda....

And you seem to think Pippen's defense > elite scoring. Scoring is a huge part of the game too pal. Durant's scoring is just as important as Pippen's overall play.



Pippen's great, but let's not put him somewhere he doesn't belong based on hypotheticals and acting like scoring is some side skill.

:coleman:

Overrated doesn't mean he was some average player. He was certainly a great player no doubt. But you're overrating the shit outta him, making assumptions that he'd be leading a championship team ALL based on one season...
Well, what do we have to go on? This is classic sports convo. A large percentage is based on what mightve or could've happened in a different situation.



Woulda, coulda, shoulda....And you seem to think Pippen's defense > elite scoring. Scoring is a huge part of the game too pal. Durant's scoring is just as important as Pippen's overall play.

I feel defensive impact is just as important as offense. And before you start, it's not a matter of man defense etc vs overall offense. Cuz that's what many people try to do. Compare a one dimensional defensive player like Tony Allen to a versatile scorer like Carmello Anthony. The other side of the coin is obviously that offense is equally important.




Pippen's great, but let's not put him somewhere he doesn't belong based on hypotheticals and acting like scoring is some side skill.
Like I stated earlier, all comparisons are based on hypocriticals. I mean, we both are Jordan fans. What's youre response to the ones that knock Jordan for not winning in the 80s? Mine is that he didnt have a team good enough around him. Even though the fact is he didn't win in the 80s.

You want facts? Jordan never won without Pippen. Pippen was more successful between the two when they weren't together.

I just dont see what's the difference.

[Dizzle-2k7]

how many 1-2 punches have 6 rings?.. ill wait

http://realmenrealdads.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Jordan-Pippen-sports-illustrated.jpg

pippen is an alpha top 20 nba player all time.. arguably top 10-15 depending on what you look for in a complete player. pippen one of the greatest skillsets in nba history... amazing defender, amazing playmaker, great teammate and LEADER and very clutch in big games.

stop underrating pippen. he is a certified, etched-in-stone LEGEND

[KG215]

There might be a better defensive small forward in League history than Scottie Pippen but I can't think of one right off hand. There's nobody else that can play defense like that and still get you 20 ppg.
OK, Havlicek could do it. If we call James a small forward, that makes 3 guys. Bird's defense is tragically underrated. Pip sniffing some rarified air.

There have been dozens of unstoppable small forwards like Kevin Durant who didn't especially play strong defense, or even good defense. I get it that a guy has to play lower energy defense if he's a #1 option offensively. But Durant has had Westbrook beside him and his defense is still _eak.

I'd love to see Durant/ Westbrook playing at the levels of Pippen/Jordan someday. I hope they do. They are young and they can have the league at their feet.... maybe someday we'll be talking about how W&D had to wait until Kobe & Duncan & James had to retire before they could run the league, just like Jordan had to wait for Showtime & Pistons & Celtics to get old.

But Pippen was playing elite defense by his 2nd season and I haven't seen anything approaching elite from Durant on that end after 7 seasons.

Pippen getting you 20 & 6 and all-time great defense
is considerably better than
Durant getting you 25 & 6 and teams scorching you over and over at the sF.
P >>> D
Except Durant plays strong defense now. That started last year and has carried through to this year. Is it on Pippen's level? Of course not, but he's not getting "scorched" every night. He's turned into a good (not average or above average) wing defender.

And 25 and 6? He's currently working on a 5 year stretch where he's averaging 29 PPG on 49/38/89 shooting and 61% TS. I mean 5 years of 29 PPG and just a hair under 50/40/90? That's insane and about as good/elite as it gets in comparison to other perimeter player in NBA history save Jordan. On top of the hyper-efficient, super-elite scoring you get from Durant, you also get 8 rebounds and 4-5 assists per game now, too.

You also said something along the lines of "probably never will be", too, which seems rash. I mean he just had his 28-8-5, 50/40/90 season last year at 24 years old, looks poised to have that same type of season, if not better, this year at 25, and players generally peak around 27-30 years old.

[Micku]

LeBron James, Kevin Durant, and CP3 I would take over prime Pippen.

I have to wait and see if Paul George can keep up his stellar play and if D.Rose gets back into shape. Kevin Love is also playing excellent lately. Anthony Davis as well.

[guy]

There might be a better defensive small forward in League history than Scottie Pippen but I can't think of one right off hand. There's nobody else that can play defense like that and still get you 20 ppg.
OK, Havlicek could do it. If we call James a small forward, that makes 3 guys. Bird's defense is tragically underrated. Pip sniffing some rarified air.

There have been dozens of unstoppable small forwards like Kevin Durant who didn't especially play strong defense, or even good defense. I get it that a guy has to play lower energy defense if he's a #1 option offensively. But Durant has had Westbrook beside him and his defense is still _eak.

I'd love to see Durant/ Westbrook playing at the levels of Pippen/Jordan someday. I hope they do. They are young and they can have the league at their feet.... maybe someday we'll be talking about how W&D had to wait until Kobe & Duncan & James had to retire before they could run the league, just like Jordan had to wait for Showtime & Pistons & Celtics to get old.

But Pippen was playing elite defense by his 2nd season and I haven't seen anything approaching elite from Durant on that end after 7 seasons.

Pippen getting you 20 & 6 and all-time great defense
is considerably better than
Durant getting you 25 & 6 and teams scorching you over and over at the sF.
P >>> D

Dozens of small forwards like Durant? Well that's quite an exaggeration.

[97 bulls]

I just don't understand why a player like Dirk is expected to win with less...and then gets his clearly inferior historically supporting cast thrown in his face when credit comes up. I mean...how much credit can KG get in 08 then? Kobe early on? Kobe from 09 and 10? Shit...nobody ever even mentions how great Ariza was. 11/4/2 on 61% TS and played quality defense. Nobody mentions him...like, ever. And I have to hear about how great Barea and his 9/2/3 50% TS and awful defense (Mavs defense got nearly 15 points worse with him on the floor...just awful) was this the reason the Mavs won? Come on now...
Maybe you dont see it, but you come off as implying that Dirks run was other-worldly. Was it great? Absolutely. I mean, they won as underdogs to the Heat. But come on. The Lakers werent that good, they barely beat a much lesser talented team in the Hornets who themselves were injured. Needed seven games to beat an injured Trailblazer team, and beat a young and inexperienced Thunder squad.

Sure Nowitzki had great stats, but is 28/8/3/1/1 on 49/94/46 along with decent defense really better than Scottie Pippens stats of 22/9/6/3/1 on 50/80/25 along with leading the playoffs in defensive win shares and defensive rating in 91?


We just see the game much differently. You think Pippen was better than Magic and Dirk...and I think taking Pippen over Magic is like top 5 dumbest things one could say about the NBA within reason. So I honestly don't know what else to say. I respect your opinion about circumstances and help, I just think you go down the wrong path with Pippen.
I don't think Pippen is better than Magic and Dirk. I feel there isnt much separation between players at that high of a level. Only the circumstances in which they were able to succeed. My comparison of Magic and Pippen was in relation to their ability to score. You may not like it but I call it like I see it. I remember asking you this question and never got an answer. As far as scoring what make Johnson a better scorer than Pippen?



My point with Pippen and you has always been that you over-rate all around play. I'm telling...some players that were more one sided or one dimensional are just much better. Take Marion for example. Dude could get you 20 ppg and 12 rebounds and 2 assists and play elite defense. Not just quality defense...like all time great sf type defense. Not quite Pippen level, but close enough to warrant comparisons at times. Shit Hubie Brown was just comparing them earlier this year. And he just wasn't on Dirk's level. That doesn't mean Marion wasn't really good, but he just wasn't Dirk.
Marion played PF. And he was a great player. I think he benefited from playing in an era where centers were really bad. And thus why his rebounding totals were so high. But he wasnt as impactful as Pippen was. Similar but not better. And I dont overrate all around play. I view it as a style and Pippen was the best at it.

[KG215]

Dozens of small forwards like Durant? Well that's quite an exaggeration.
For whatever reason, people sill pigeonhole Durant as a high scoring, no-defense playing, bad playmaking forward. Like I said, he's currently working on a 5-year stretch of averaging 29-8-3-1-1 on 49/38/89 shooting and 61% TS...and he's only 25 years old. And, at 25 years old, he's working on a second straight season of being an above average player and good defender to go along with some of the most efficient high-volume scoring from a perimeter player in league history.

If someone wants to try and argue he's not as good as Pippen was, I'll disagree but at least listen. To say something like there's "dozens" or even just one dozen SF's like Durant...that's absurd.

[La Frescobaldi]

For whatever reason, people sill pigeonhole Durant as a high scoring, no-defense playing, bad playmaking forward. Like I said, he's currently working on a 5-year stretch of averaging 29-8-3-1-1 on 49/38/89 shooting and 61% TS...and he's only 25 years old. And, at 25 years old, he's working on a second straight season of being an above average player and good defender to go along with some of the most efficient high-volume scoring from a perimeter player in league history.

If someone wants to try and argue he's not as good as Pippen was, I'll disagree but at least listen. To say something like there's "dozens" or even just one dozen SF's like Durant...that's absurd.

I've watched dozens of Thunder games, both on the tube and in the bleachers. Durant's defense is consistently poor.
It has been since his first year, and I've seen little change since he was in Seattle. He's better now than he was, but after going straight at Perkins, you win games against the Thunder by running Kevin Durant through low screens. He won't do it. You win by running isolations on Durant; you win by flooding his section of the floor.

He's a great scorer, Bernard King or Adrian Dantley level. He's not at Bob McAdoo's level. But I'm not buying any of this 'he's got good defense" stuff. He hasn't, he doesn't, and unless something changes, he won't.

[KG215]

I've watched dozens of Thunder games, both on the tube and in the bleachers. Durant's defense is consistently poor.
It has been since his first year, and I've seen little change since he was in Seattle. He's better now than he was, but after going straight at Perkins, you win games against the Thunder by running Kevin Durant through low screens. He won't do it. You win by running isolations on Durant; you win by flooding his section of the floor.

He's a great scorer, Bernard King or Adrian Dantley level. He's not at Bob McAdoo's level. But I'm not buying any of this 'he's got good defense" stuff. He hasn't, he doesn't, and unless something changes, he won't.
And I've watched hundreds of Thunder games. Durant is a good defender now, a good player, and an elite, high-volume scorer. Almost every single defensive metric (stats, advanced and raw, and the eye-test) says Kevin Durant became a good defensive player last year and it's carried through to this year so far. He's better than Pippen now, was better than Pippen last year, and will probably continue getting better the next 3-5 years, making the gap between peak Durant and peak Pippen pretty wide.

[La Frescobaldi]

And I've watched hundreds of Thunder games. Durant is a good defender now, a good player, and an elite, high-volume scorer. Almost every single defensive metric (stats, advanced and raw, and the eye-test) says Kevin Durant became a good defensive player last year and it's carried through to this year so far. He's better than Pippen now, was better than Pippen last year, and will probably continue getting better the next 3-5 years, making the gap between peak Durant and peak Pippen pretty wide.

I'm glad to hear this lol When did it suddenly happen that KD wasn't getting scorched?

[andremiller07]

And I've watched hundreds of Thunder games. Durant is a good defender now, a good player, and an elite, high-volume scorer.
Something we agree on :applause:

[Dresta]

The only thing those players have over Pippen is that they're better scorers. And thats debatable cuz Im sure if they had to do what Pippen had to do, it would effect their offense as well
Oh, give me a break. Wade averaged 35 ppg in the finals while leading/carrying his team to a championship. Pippen was not even close to being better than him.

[KG215]

I'm glad to hear this lol When did it suddenly happen that KD wasn't getting scorched?
Prior to 2013, it was always there in short bursts. While I know raw numbers can be misleading for a lot of players, Durant has been averaging around 1.5 SPG and 1.0 BPG the last four or five years and, at times, has used his length and athleticism to shutdown various players in key spots of some playoff games. But last year was the first year he became a consistently good defender. Not on the LeBron or Paul George elite level, but in my opinion he was really only a tier below that among wing defenders.

[tpols]

Prior to 2013, it was always there in short bursts. While I know raw numbers can be misleading for a lot of players, Durant has been averaging around 1.5 SPG and 1.0 BPG the last four or five years and, at times, has used his length and athleticism to shutdown various players in key spots of some playoff games. But last year was the first year he became a consistently good defender. Not on the LeBron or Paul George elite level, but in my opinion he was really only a tier below that among wing defenders.
No matter how you slice it, Durant is like 5 tiers below Pippen in terms of defense and playmaking/passing.. Pippen is like 5 tiers below Durant in terms of scoring..

Id rather rely on pippen anchoring an elite defense for my team and facilitating/controlling a decent offense than have Durant just putting up a lot of points efficiently while not shutting down anything or anchoring anything but just being an average piece on that side of the ball.. and just being a great individual threat on the other side(Durant cannot facilitate an offense like pippen can and make his teammates better.. hes an individual weapon).

[bizil]

For whatever reason, people sill pigeonhole Durant as a high scoring, no-defense playing, bad playmaking forward. Like I said, he's currently working on a 5-year stretch of averaging 29-8-3-1-1 on 49/38/89 shooting and 61% TS...and he's only 25 years old. And, at 25 years old, he's working on a second straight season of being an above average player and good defender to go along with some of the most efficient high-volume scoring from a perimeter player in league history.

If someone wants to try and argue he's not as good as Pippen was, I'll disagree but at least listen. To say something like there's "dozens" or even just one dozen SF's like Durant...that's absurd.

Great point! Some people think that u are either a great all around player OR horrible all around. And that there is no in between. KD has developed into a good all around player no doubt. Plus people have to also keep in mind that THE MOST PREMIUM ASSET IN BBALL IS GREAT SCORING! So even if KD isn't as good of an all around player as Pippen, I'm taking KD over Scottie. What makes Lebron so unique is the fact that he's a great scorer like Durant AND a great all around player (both sides of the ball) like Pippen all in one. Very few guys are both frankly. These are guys like Bron, MJ, Kobe, Hondo, West, Wade, etc. Then of course u have other great all around players minus the defense like Magic, Bird, Barry, etc.

[KG215]

No matter how you slice it, Durant is like 5 tiers below Pippen in terms of defense and playmaking/passing.. Pippen is like 5 tiers below Durant in terms of scoring..

Id rather rely on pippen anchoring an elite defense for my team and facilitating/controlling a decent offense than have Durant just putting up a lot of points efficiently while not shutting down anything or anchoring anything but just being an average piece on that side of the ball.. and just being a great individual threat on the other side(Durant cannot facilitate an offense like pippen can and make his teammates better.. hes an individual weapon).
Durant anchors an offense. You don't have to score 20+ PPG and average 7+ APG to anchor an offense. When you're someone like Durant, who's working on a 5 year stretch of 29 PPG on 60%+ TS, to go along with about 4 APG, you're anchoring an offense at a level few others in league history have reached.

And yes, Durant makes teammates better. Even if he was someone who only averages around 2 APG, he still makes his teammates better by simply stepping on the court. The ability to draw as much extra defensive attention as Durant does opens things up for everyone else. Not only is he consistently facing double teams when he has the ball, teams now shade an extra defender towards him in certain/key spots of games when he doesn't have the ball. Memphis was essentially double teaming him even when he didn't have the ball in the playoffs last year, and it resulted in a ton of wide-open looks for guys like Martin, Serge, and Thabo. They just couldn't consistently do anything with them.

Going back to last season, Durant has become very good at reading the double teams he faces and making the right pass more often than not. He can go into "takeover scorer" mode now, or feed off the extra defensive attention he's drawing to facilitate the offense from the high and mid-post. I've seen OKC (successfully) run their offense through Durant in that manner down the stretch of numerous games dating back to 2013 and already one game this year.

And his defense is good enough...now. I keep trying to emphasize this, because I see too many people still categorizing him as an average or below average defender, but he's better than that now. He's not elite or great, but he's a good defender now. And if someone brings up the 2012 Finals again to try and make their point, I may lose it.

[tpols]

Durant anchors an offense. You don't have to score 20+ PPG and average 7+ APG to anchor an offense. When you're someone like Durant, who's working on a 5 year stretch of 29 PPG on 60%+ TS, to go along with about 4 APG, you're anchoring an offense at a level few others in league history have reached.

And yes, Durant makes teammates better. Even if he was someone who only averages around 2 APG, he still makes his teammates better by simply stepping on the court. The ability to draw as much extra defensive attention as Durant does opens things up for everyone else. Not only is he consistently facing double teams when he has the ball, teams now shade an extra defender towards him in certain/key spots of games when he doesn't have the ball. Memphis was essentially double teaming him even when he didn't have the ball in the playoffs last year, and it resulted in a ton of wide-open looks for guys like Martin, Serge, and Thabo. They just couldn't consistently do anything with them.

Going back to last season, Durant has become very good at reading the double teams he faces and making the right pass more often than not. He can go into "takeover scorer" mode now, or feed off the extra defensive attention he's drawing to facilitate the offense from the high and mid-post. I've seen OKC (successfully) run their offense through Durant in that manner down the stretch of numerous games dating back to 2013 and already one game this year.

And his defense is good enough...now. I keep trying to emphasize this, because I see too many people still categorizing him as an average or below average defender, but he's better than that now. He's not elite or great, but he's a good defender now. And if someone brings up the 2012 Finals again to try and make their point, I may lose it.
Thats not anchoring an offense.. thats just great individual scoring. Anchoring an offense is Steve Nash making Hakim Warrick look like amare Stoudemire and boosting all of his teammates numbers with elite penetrating/manipulating the defense and feeding teammates in spots they are most comfortable in.


All of Durant's teammate's numbers went to shit when Westbrook went down because Durant doesnt force defenders and defenses out of position to free up his teammates nearly as much as WB does.. he just shoots over everybody at an incredibly high clip. You even admitted before WB came back this season that Durant's passing/playmaking isnt as good as you thought it was. Im not saying Pippen is more valuable on offense than Durant.. I would take Durant on that side of the ball, but Pippen is a better team offensive player if that makes sense. His assist numbers dont even do him justice.. he played in the triangle and was a facilitator. He wasnt going one on one drive and dish kicking it like everybody today.


And why to the bolded? Durant's poor man defense literally cost the Thunder a championship. His offense was great, but it was nullified when Lebron toasted him and got him into foul trouble taking him out of the game.

I guess he may have improved in that facet, but overall comparing Durant's defense to Pippens is just as silly as comparing Pippens scoring to Durant's.

[KG215]

Thats not anchoring an offense.. thats just great individual scoring. Anchoring an offense is Steve Nash making Hakim Warrick look like amare Stoudemire and boosting all of his teammates numbers with elite penetrating/manipulating the defense and feeding teammates in spots they are most comfortable in.
Sorry, but I strongly disagree. You don't have to be an elite/great playmaker to anchor an offense. You can do it in the Durant/Dirk mold where you provide high volume, hyper efficient scoring. Not to mention Durant has drastically grown in feeding his teammates where they're most comfortable. He's not on Pippen, LeBron, MJ's, or Wade's level in that regard, but he's at least average at it now, which is a huge plus since he's going to average 28-30 PPG on 60%+ TS.


All of Durant's teammate's numbers went to shit when Westbrook went down because Durant doesnt force defenders and defenses out of position to free up his teammates nearly as much as WB does.. he just shoots over everybody at an incredibly high clip. You even admitted before WB came back this season that Durant's passing/playmaking isnt as good as you thought it was. Im not saying Pippen is more valuable on offense than Durant.. I would take Durant on that side of the ball, but Pippen is a better team offensive player if that makes sense. His assist numbers dont even do him justice.. he played in the triangle and was a facilitator. He wasnt going one on one drive and dish kicking it like everybody today.
First off, you've got an extremely small sample size to use for that claim. He does force defenders out of position because defenses shade and shift towards him every time he touches the ball, especially in the high and mid-post where he operates a lot more frequently over the last 1+ seasons. Secondly, his teammates numbers went to shit because they couldn't make the wide-open shots they were getting on a consistent basis because of the attention Durant was drawing.


And why to the bolded? Durant's poor man defense literally cost the Thunder a championship. His offense was great, but it was nullified when Lebron toasted him and got him into foul trouble taking him out of the game.

I guess he may have improved in that facet, but overall comparing Durant's defense to Pippens is just as silly as comparing Pippens scoring to Durant's.
Because he's not the same defender anymore. Using information from 2012 (never mind it was just one playoff series in a playoffs where he played good to great defense at times in other series), when I'm talking about 2013 and beyond Durant Is it really that hard to grasp?

His defense didn't single-handily cost them a championship. He was actually the most effective OKC defender on LeBron. And, contrary to popular belief, him getting in foul trouble wasn't a direct result of guarding LeBron. In the 3 games he got into foul trouble, I think one of his 3-5 fouls in each game came directly from guarding LeBron. I know in two of the games he picked up a questionable offensive foul that put him on the bench for an unexpected stretch in the 1st half.

[Fudge]

LeBran Jame
Kevin Durand
Anthony Davies
Kevin Luv
Russel Westburke

[guy]

Ok but why not apply the same standard to all the 80s teams? The Celts never beat the "Bad Boy" Pistons. Rodman was a rookie, so was John Salley. Aguire wasn't there Joe Dumars was young.

The Lakers beat an injured Celtic team in 87.

There was nothing special about the Celtics run in 86.

Why the double standard?



Lol my bad bro. I know thats sacrilegious.

The thing that annoys me about this argument is that the other side is never brought up. And that's that the 80s Lakers, Celtics, and Pistons never had to worry about a Bulls team where Jordan had just enough help like Magic, Bird, and Isiah did. In the 80s, he didn't have even close to the talent and quality organization around him. Magic and Bird didn't have to worry about Jordan having a contending team around him from almost the beginning of his career like they did. Who knows how much less accomplished they would've been if Jordan had the same benefit. I'd understand the argument if lets say Jordan had an all-star level Scottie Pippen, quality role players like Grant, Cartwright, and Paxson, and HOF coach in Phil Jackson right from the beginning and they lost every single year until literally all those teams got too old but that wasn't the case.

The argument that Jordan's Bulls didn't really beat Bird's Celtics, the Showtime Lakers, and the Bad Boy Pistons when they really were playing at the level that earned them their historic reputations is completely valid. But its not like those teams ever beat Jordan's Bulls when they were at the level that earned them their historic reputation. Its almost like completely different eras. The times just didn't overlap. Its like saying the 2nd three-peat Bulls never beat the 94-95 Rockets cause they got too old, or the Kobe-Shaq Lakers never beat the 2nd three-peat Bulls cause they got too old. That might sound ridiculous to say but its really not much different.

[DMAVS41]

What team would they lose to? 44 win Suns? 49 win Nets? Dirkless Mavs? 50 win Lakers?

I actually think they would have lost to both the Lakers and Mavs...

Well, maybe not if Ewing got hurt...

Ewing Theory and all

[Young X]

I actually think they would have lost to both the Lakers and Mavs...

Well, maybe not if Ewing got hurt...

Ewing Theory and allYou're underrating Ewing badly. Peak Ewing put up 29/11/4 blocks on 60 TS% and 29/11 on 58 TS% in the playoffs. That's definitely comparable to Duncan.

So you really think they would lose to a Mavs team without Dirk? Or a Laker team that almost lost to a KG + scrubs Minny team?

Do you realize how weak the 03 Spurs competition was?

[Dro]

I tried to avoid this thread because there should realistically be no more than 1-2 people. Lebron and MAYBE Durant...Thats it....I can see a small case for Chris Paul but definitely not anybody else. We're talking this generation right so Kobe doesn't count.

[tpols]

You're underrating Ewing badly. Peak Ewing put up 29/11/4 blocks on 60 TS% and 29/11 on 58 TS% in the playoffs. That's definitely comparable to Duncan.

So you really think they would lose to a Mavs team without Dirk? Or a Laker team that almost lost to a KG + scrubs Minny team?

Do you realize how weak the 03 Spurs competition was?
Only thing dmavs looks at is second option..


I mean where would kidd rank if the nets won? His second option and team were just as bad as duncans.. guess he'd catapult into top ten goats

[CavaliersFTW]

lmao at the people overrating Pippen.
This.

[scm5]

Prior to 2013, it was always there in short bursts. While I know raw numbers can be misleading for a lot of players, Durant has been averaging around 1.5 SPG and 1.0 BPG the last four or five years and, at times, has used his length and athleticism to shutdown various players in key spots of some playoff games. But last year was the first year he became a consistently good defender. Not on the LeBron or Paul George elite level, but in my opinion he was really only a tier below that among wing defenders.

Durant has actually been a good defender since 2012.

Literally every statistical defensive measure puts Durant at an elite level.

His Drtg has been 100-101 for the past 3 seasons.

KD had more defensive WS than Lebron last season, and not by an insignificant margin. KD had a DWS of 5.3 while Lebron's was 4.7

His opponent's production (similar to PER) was 11.3 last season
http://www.82games.com/1213/1213OKC.HTM
In contrast:
Melo: 14.2
Lebron: 13.8
Deng: 12.5
Leonard: 12.0
Iguodala: 11.8
George: 11.2
Butler: 10.7
- I listed these just to give you an idea of why this metric isn't complete bullshit. Every single player recognized as an elite defender has low Opp Production numbers. The poorest defenders in the league at the SF position (read: Melo) did not magically have a lower number.

Then, there's the synergy stats posted by StateofMind12 on this forum last year supporting Durant's claim as an elite defender.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=246064

And of course, basic stats: KD gets over 1 block and 1 steal per game. This is pretty much one of the most useless stats to measure a player's defense, so take it with a grain of salt.

So pretty much everything used to measure a player's defense supports that KD is an excellent defender.

He might look bad during the game, but it's clear his length allows him to recover and bother players, even if it's just a mental thing. He's gotta be doing something right.

[La Frescobaldi]

The thing that annoys me about this argument is that the other side is never brought up. And that's that the 80s Lakers, Celtics, and Pistons never had to worry about a Bulls team where Jordan had just enough help like Magic, Bird, and Isiah did. In the 80s, he didn't have even close to the talent and quality organization around him. Magic and Bird didn't have to worry about Jordan having a contending team around him from almost the beginning of his career like they did. Who knows how much less accomplished they would've been if Jordan had the same benefit. I'd understand the argument if lets say Jordan had an all-star level Scottie Pippen, quality role players like Grant, Cartwright, and Paxson, and HOF coach in Phil Jackson right from the beginning and they lost every single year until literally all those teams got too old but that wasn't the case.

The argument that Jordan's Bulls didn't really beat Bird's Celtics, the Showtime Lakers, and the Bad Boy Pistons when they really were playing at the level that earned them their historic reputations is completely valid. But its not like those teams ever beat Jordan's Bulls when they were at the level that earned them their historic reputation. Its almost like completely different eras. The times just didn't overlap. Its like saying the 2nd three-peat Bulls never beat the 94-95 Rockets cause they got too old, or the Kobe-Shaq Lakers never beat the 2nd three-peat Bulls cause they got too old. That might sound ridiculous to say but its really not much different.
This is exactly true right here.

[hitmanyr2k]

****ing prime Shawn Marion is closer to Pippen than Pippen is to Durant the last few years. Real talk.

Nah, that's dumb talk :oldlol:

Despite the stats he put up Shawn Marion isn't anything close to Pippen. He was a third option at best. Marion had the luxury of playing in an uptempo system and being spoonfed by good/great point guards (Kidd, Marbury, Nash) for the majority of his career. He was the ultimate garbageman and his athleticism was perfect for a free-flowing run and gun offense where he could catch and finish. Watch any Shawn Marion highlight reel and that's the main way you're going to see that guy score. He's going to be wide open or catching and finishing for a dunk or layup.

Pippen could EASILY do anything Shawn Marion could do. Shawn Marion sure as hell couldn't do what Pippen was asked to do on those Bulls teams. Not many players back then or today could for that matter.

[Myth]

The list of players I would build around over Pippen is larger than the list of players I would select to replace Pippen with on the Bulls. For example, Pippen compliments Jordan more than Durant would and therefore I would not take Durant on the Bulls over him; however, if starting from scratch and I did not have Jordan on my team, I would take Durant over Pippen.

[kshutts1]

The list of players I would build around over Pippen is larger than the list of players I would select to replace Pippen with on the Bulls. For example, Pippen compliments Jordan more than Durant would and therefore I would not take Durant on the Bulls over him; however, if starting from scratch and I did not have Jordan on my team, I would take Durant over Pippen.
True statement that directly adds nothing to the conversation. Indirectly, however, it adds some.

Edit: Same statement holds true for most of the major players on a championship winning squad.

[TheReal Kendall]

Only Lebron.

[joeyjoejoe]

Nah, that's dumb talk :oldlol:

Despite the stats he put up Shawn Marion isn't anything close to Pippen. He was a third option at best. Marion had the luxury of playing in an uptempo system and being spoonfed by good/great point guards (Kidd, Marbury, Nash) for the majority of his career. He was the ultimate garbageman and his athleticism was perfect for a free-flowing run and gun offense where he could catch and finish. Watch any Shawn Marion highlight reel and that's the main way you're going to see that guy score. He's going to be wide open or catching and finishing for a dunk or layup.

Pippen could EASILY do anything Shawn Marion could do. Shawn Marion sure as hell couldn't do what Pippen was asked to do on those Bulls teams. Not many players back then or today could for that matter.

your not giving Marion much credit, no way pippen could rebound like marion

[KG215]

Durant has actually been a good defender since 2012.

Literally every statistical defensive measure puts Durant at an elite level.

His Drtg has been 100-101 for the past 3 seasons.

KD had more defensive WS than Lebron last season, and not by an insignificant margin. KD had a DWS of 5.3 while Lebron's was 4.7

His opponent's production (similar to PER) was 11.3 last season
http://www.82games.com/1213/1213OKC.HTM
In contrast:
Melo: 14.2
Lebron: 13.8
Deng: 12.5
Leonard: 12.0
Iguodala: 11.8
George: 11.2
Butler: 10.7
- I listed these just to give you an idea of why this metric isn't complete bullshit. Every single player recognized as an elite defender has low Opp Production numbers. The poorest defenders in the league at the SF position (read: Melo) did not magically have a lower number.

Then, there's the synergy stats posted by StateofMind12 on this forum last year supporting Durant's claim as an elite defender.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=246064

And of course, basic stats: KD gets over 1 block and 1 steal per game. This is pretty much one of the most useless stats to measure a player's defense, so take it with a grain of salt.

So pretty much everything used to measure a player's defense supports that KD is an excellent defender.

He might look bad during the game, but it's clear his length allows him to recover and bother players, even if it's just a mental thing. He's gotta be doing something right.
Yeah, I'm just hesitant to readily use individual advanced defensive metrics. I'm not real knowledgeable on them, but from some of the explanations I've read, they are less reliant than advanced offensive stats. If someone wants to argue Durant actually is an elite defender, they've got a more than good argument since literally almost every single statistic supports it, but I still don't see that level of defense when I watch games. I will say this, though. When he's locked in and focused, his on-ball defense is pretty damn near elite.

I think you hit the nail on the head with the "it may not always look pretty" part. I've seen Durant get beat badly off the dribble, or be badly out of position on help side, and still recover and block the shot or bother it enough to force a miss because of his insane length. And, at the end of the day, if his defense is resulting in a stop all the same, who cares?


I think, for whatever reason, people think Durant's defense in the 2012 Finals is still relevant today; like he's the same player now, than he was then as a 23 year old. I mean common sense tells you he probably improved since then. I'll admit he did a poor job of defending Chalmers but, and I've tried explaining this before, he was guarding Chalmers so he could specifically roam and double down when LeBron caught the ball in the post. He just did a terrible job of reacting and recovering when Chalmers got the ball, or he had roamed a little too far from Chalmers, and had no hope of recovering and contesting the shot.

[97 bulls]

your not giving Marion much credit, no way pippen could rebound like marion
Why not? He averaged 9 in 94 as a perimeter player. Playing in a league full of centers 10 times better than the ones in Marions time.

[PickernRoller]

Nobody, Pippen>Lebron and BFF Durant.

[Micku]

Why not? He averaged 9 in 94 as a perimeter player. Playing in a league full of centers 10 times better than the ones in Marions time.

Marion actually played as SF when he averaged nearly 11 rebounds a game in his second year alone. While you mentioned Marion played an uptempo style in the Suns, you forget to mention that the Bulls in the early 90s also played in a equal fast pace.

And I wouldn't question Marions rebounding ability against big men either. In the playoffs, Marion went up against David Robinson and Tim Duncan in 2003 for example. Tim Duncan average 16. Robinson average 9. Marion averaged nearly 12.

Not only does Marion average more rebounds consistently, but he has a better rebound % than Pippen ever did in his career. And we got to see how Marion could rebound with him being the best player and with him having another big like Amare along with him, and he could still average nearly 12 rebounds. Now Pippen have average 10 rebounds or more in the playoffs before, but never has been consistent as Marion.

With that said, Pippen is a very good rebounder and is capable of 9 rebounds per game.

[Round Mound]

Lebron and Durant. Thats it.

[97 bulls]

Marion actually played as SF when he averaged nearly 11 rebounds a game in his second year alone. While you mentioned Marion played an uptempo style in the Suns, you forget to mention that the Bulls in the early 90s also played in a equal fast pace.

And I wouldn't question Marions rebounding ability against big men either. In the playoffs, Marion went up against David Robinson and Tim Duncan in 2003 for example. Tim Duncan average 16. Robinson average 9. Marion averaged nearly 12.

Not only does Marion average more rebounds consistently, but he has a better rebound % than Pippen ever did in his career. And we got to see how Marion could rebound with him being the best player and with him having another big like Amare along with him, and he could still average nearly 12 rebounds. Now Pippen have average 10 rebounds or more in the playoffs before, but never has been consistent as Marion.

With that said, Pippen is a very good rebounder and is capable of 9 rebounds per game.
I see no reason why Pippen couldn't avg that many rebounds. Or close to it. Marion never had rebounders as good as Grant and Rodman next to him. And mind you im in no way questioning Marions rebounding ability. He was a great rebounder. I just look at circumstances as well.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Kd
Cp
Lbj

[TheCorporation]

Nobody, Pippen>Lebron and BFF Durant.

I see why you're red lol Therefore, no need to neg you, I'm sure someone else will with an answer like this :rolleyes:

[Micku]

I see no reason why Pippen couldn't avg that many rebounds. Or close to it. Marion never had rebounders as good as Grant and Rodman next to him. And mind you im in no way questioning Marions rebounding ability. He was a great rebounder. I just look at circumstances as well.

The reason why I question Pippen's ability to do so is because he has never done it. He never done it when Grant or Rodman weren't on the team either in 95 when they were clearly missing rebounds. Why should I think that he is able to do that when he clearly couldn't when his team needed it?

And Marion rebounded with Amare (prime) in the lineup as well. Just like Pippen did with Grant.W hile Grant is better rebounder, he isn't way better than Amare in terms of rebounding. Amare is always good for 9 rebounds per game. And in the playoffs, Amare stepped up in his game getting over 10 rebounds per game. In the 06-07 playoffs, Amare had 12 rebounds per game, Marion got 10.

Pippen never done that consistently. I don't think that's his game. But he is a a very good rebounder. Very capable of making 8-9 rebounds, and that's great. But Marion was doing close to 12 rebounds. But he was mostly a 10-12 type of guy.

It's like me saying LeBron James isn't as good as rebounder as Marion either tho he is a very good rebounder as well.

[KOBE143]

One of the most underrated player of all time..

Prime Pippen would be the undisputed best player in the league today.. Remember he has an argument for best player in the league in 1994 to 1995 and his competition are just prime/peak Hakeem, Malone, Robinson, Ewing, Barkley, young dominant Shaq, etc.. Carried the scrub bulls team without Jordan to 55 wins and almost won the title that year if not for one bad call/officiating.. Its a shame, he was robbed of MVP, DPOY and FMVP in 1994.. :(

[97 bulls]

The reason why I question Pippen's ability to do so is because he has never done it. He never done it when Grant or Rodman weren't on the team either in 95 when they were clearly missing rebounds. Why should I think that he is able to do that when he clearly couldn't when his team needed it?

And Marion rebounded with Amare (prime) in the lineup as well. Just like Pippen did with Grant.W hile Grant is better rebounder, he isn't way better than Amare in terms of rebounding. Amare is always good for 9 rebounds per game. And in the playoffs, Amare stepped up in his game getting over 10 rebounds per game. In the 06-07 playoffs, Amare had 12 rebounds per game, Marion got 10.

Pippen never done that consistently. I don't think that's his game. But he is a a very good rebounder. Very capable of making 8-9 rebounds, and that's great. But Marion was doing close to 12 rebounds. But he was mostly a 10-12 type of guy.

It's like me saying LeBron James isn't as good as rebounder as Marion either tho he is a very good rebounder as well.
But are you considering circumstances or just looking at stats? I mean, not just who they (both Marion and Pippen) played with, but who they played against.

It never ceases to amaze me how some of the posters on this site view Pippen. They throw all common sense and reason out the door. I could say the 96 Bulls are the greatest team ever because they won the most games in a season. What's the reply? Circumstances. Who they played and who they didn't play.

You ccan't move the goal post when you know you cant score.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

97 bulls: are you saying the only player you'd take over pippen is james? I read through this thread and you never really answered the question.

[97 bulls]

97 bulls: are you saying the only player you'd take over pippen is james? I read through this thread and you never really answered the question.
As of right now? James only. Possibly Durant because I feel hes young and can get better.

But Durant needs alot of work. He needs a post game, and needs to get stronger. His defense may be better but it's not where it needs to be. So basically if Durants game never improved, I wouldn't take him over Pippen.

[Micku]

But are you considering circumstances or just looking at stats? I mean, not just who they (both Marion and Pippen) played with, but who they played against.

It never ceases to amaze me how some of the posters on this site view Pippen. They throw all common sense and reason out the door. I could say the 96 Bulls are the greatest team ever because they won the most games in a season. What's the reply? Circumstances. Who they played and who they didn't play.

You ccan't move the goal post when you know you cant score.

Both. There were great rebounders where Marion was putting up 10 plus rebounds a game. Some of them went up against guys like Kevin Garnett, the twin towers with Duncan and David Robinson, Shaq, Ben Wallace, Mutombo, and Jermaine O'Neal and etc. And he continued his stellar rebounding in the playoffs as well. Marion was in the top 5 rebounding multiple times, and he would've been in top 5 in the mid 90s. He basically average 12 a game at his best. That's among elite status.

Pippen couldn't do that as consistently as Marion. He never showed he could when the Bulls needed it, so why should I believe he could? Just like LeBron. He can't do that either. But they are still very good rebounders in their own right. There's no shame in that.

And you can at stats with Marion throughout his career and notice his minutes. Despite playing only 28-30 minutes a game in his older half of his career, he still manage to put up 7-8 rebounds a game compared that to Pippen in his latter half of his career and he couldn't put up those numbers despite playing more minutes. Pippen couldn't beat that, and he isn't a better rebounder than Marion. Not only does basic and advance stats says it, but also eye test too. Marion played in difference pace teams, different positions, different coaches, play against high caliber rebounders, and played with other solid rebounders as well.

He's just a better rebounder.

[Diegio]

Lebron James

[La Frescobaldi]

Prior to 2013, it was always there in short bursts. While I know raw numbers can be misleading for a lot of players, Durant has been averaging around 1.5 SPG and 1.0 BPG the last four or five years and, at times, has used his length and athleticism to shutdown various players in key spots of some playoff games. But last year was the first year he became a consistently good defender. Not on the LeBron or Paul George elite level, but in my opinion he was really only a tier below that among wing defenders.

We just can't agree about Durant's defense. It's poor.

Tonight Warriors match is the third Thunders game I've watched this season and just as was clearly seen in both the other games, his defense has not changed from past seasons. Mark Jackson stupidly did not go after Durant with 5 fouls & 6 minutes left in the game... coach should run a lot of laps for that lapse.

This is consistently Kevin Durant defense RIGHT HERE.

http://www.pangolinlondon.com/public/uploads/SculptorsDrawings/files/assets/basic-html/page13_images/0001.jpg

[KG215]

We just can't agree about Durant's defense. It's poor.

Tonight Warriors match is the third Thunders game I've watched this season and just as was clearly seen in both the other games, his defense has not changed from past seasons. Mark Jackson stupidly did not go after Durant with 5 fouls & 6 minutes left in the game... coach should run a lot of laps for that lapse.

This is consistently Kevin Durant defense RIGHT HERE.

http://www.pangolinlondon.com/public/uploads/SculptorsDrawings/files/assets/basic-html/page13_images/0001.jpg
Right, so you've watched 3 early regular season games to somehow confirm your previous beliefs? Please. His defense is improved and to the point where he's a good defender. He hasn't been quite as good defensively this year as he was last year, but it's early int he season. For whatever reason, it takes Durant several weeks into the season to really get going, and that includes providing consistent effort on defense. Besides, it's the f***ing regular season. I could watch 10-15 Heat games and pick out 3-5 games where LeBron's defense was lacking. Still doesn't make him a bad defender.

[La Frescobaldi]

Right, so you've watched 3 early regular season games to somehow confirm your previous beliefs? Please. His defense is improved and to the point where he's a good defender. He hasn't been quite as good defensively this year as he was last year, but it's early int he season. For whatever reason, it takes Durant several weeks into the season to really get going, and that includes providing consistent effort on defense. Besides, it's the f***ing regular season. I could watch 10-15 Heat games and pick out 3-5 games where LeBron's defense was lacking. Still doesn't make him a bad defender.

That's right. My opinion hasn't changed. He has been like that his whole career, and he still plays D just like that. A matador.

[KG215]

That's right. My opinion hasn't changed. He has been like that his whole career, and he still plays D just like that. A matador.
He certainly wasn't like that last year, so it hasn't been his whole career. There's not even a single drop of statistical evidence that would support your claim, either, never mind the fact that he passed the eye test as much as can be expected from a superstar player who shoulders a big burden on the offensive end.

[La Frescobaldi]

He certainly wasn't like that last year, so it hasn't been his whole career. There's not even a single drop of statistical evidence that would support your claim, either, never mind the fact that he passed the eye test as much as can be expected from a superstar player who shoulders a big burden on the offensive end.
I wish him all the best in his journey to become a good defensive player, KG

[KG215]

I wish him all the best in his journey to become a good defensive player, KG
:cheers:

Alright, stay ignorant.

[KG215]

And I apologize for being an ass. I'm in a pissy mood right now after the last two nights.

[D.J.]

No one in today's game matches Pippen's perimeter D. Scottie was the best at that because of his length, agility, and ability to defend multiple positions. But an alpha he was not. He caved when he was needed and refused to enter the final seconds of a playoff game against the Knicks. I'm sorry, but no leader does that.

But as for players today I'd take over Pippen, it would be LeBron and Durant for sure. Possible CP3 as well. Paul George may get to that level in 2-3 years.