Hakeem vs Lebron

[scm5]

Hakeem played in the most stacked era for Centers. He played against Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Mourning, Mutombo, Daugherty,... and a little bit against an over the hill Kareem.

Lebron is perhaps playing in the most stacked era for SF's. Durant, PG, Melo are currently all dominant, but Lebron also played against Tmac, Pierce, and Iguodala (a bit of a stretch, but he's a dominant defensive player like Mutombo ).

So far, they have both won two rings each.

Say they were inserted into the same era. Who would be regarded as the better player?

[TheReal Kendall]

Hakeem

[JimmyMcAdocious]

When Melo is being used as a main factor to support your argument for the strength of the position, I'm guessing the era isn't THAT strong.

80s had Bird, Worthy, Wilkins, Gervin, Erving, and then the Melo of the era, English. Probably others, can't remember right now.

[get these NETS]

Olajuwon wuld be cnsidered even greater if he played in Bron's era against chump centers


Bron would be another great sf in that era but he wouldn't win anything in celtics lakers bad boys and bulls era

Dream might be going on 4 rings EVEN in shaq/duncan era

[get these NETS]

80s had Bird, Worthy, Wilkins, Gervin, Erving, and then the Melo of the era, English. Probably others, can't remember right now.

adrian dantley, bernard king, mark aguirre. kiki van., and maybe 3 more

[unbreakable]

there are some great SFs no doubt, but lebrons SUPER STACKED team allows him to get WINS while he plays average to his competition?

[SyRyanYang]

Are you saying Paul George and Melo are in the same league with Shaq Ewing, and The Admiral????:wtf: :facepalm :facepalm

[sportjames23]

Olajuwon wuld be cnsidered even greater if he played in Bron's era against chump centers


Bron would be another great sf in that era but he wouldn't win anything in celtics lakers bad boys and bulls era

Dream might be going on 4 rings EVEN in shaq/duncan era


Co-signeth.

[scm5]

When Melo is being used as a main factor to support your argument for the strength of the position, I'm guessing the era isn't THAT strong.

80s had Bird, Worthy, Wilkins, Gervin, Erving, and then the Melo of the era, English. Probably others, can't remember right now.

Alright, it's about equal.

Durant = Gervin
Pierce = Dr. J in the 80's
Tmac = Wilkins
PG = Worthy
Melo = English

Still, it's a strong era for SF's

[scm5]

Are you saying Paul George and Melo are in the same league with Shaq Ewing, and The Admiral????:wtf: :facepalm :facepalm

No, I'm not. But in regards to SF's, this era is as strong or stronger than any other era for SF's.

It's not like Lebron is playing against weak competition.

[scm5]

Olajuwon wuld be cnsidered even greater if he played in Bron's era against chump centers


Bron would be another great sf in that era but he wouldn't win anything in celtics lakers bad boys and bulls era

Dream might be going on 4 rings EVEN in shaq/duncan era

Hakeem was no doubt the greatest Center in his era. Although he did play against Shaq, it wasn't against Prime Shaq, which I consider part of another era.

Playing devil's advocate here, but I definitely think Lebron would be able to win a ring in that era. He would at the very least give Hakeem's teams a run for their money while MJ was out. Not even a Lebron fan, but to think he has no shot at it is ridiculous.

[SyRyanYang]

No, I'm not. But in regards to SF's, this era is as strong or stronger than any other era for SF's.

It's not like Lebron is playing against weak competition.

As someone already pointed out, the 80's is a much better era of SF's.

The only sf's that will end up in top50 goat are 'Bron and Durant. Maybe PP with a very slim chance.
Even the 90's has Scottie, Wilkins and Clyde.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Both at their peak? It's pretty much a toss up for me.

[russwest0]

Is this even a debate?

It's Hakeem all goddamn day.

How old are the people on this board? I feel like they have to be grade schoolers to be having a damn debate over this

[BlackVVaves]

Not sure if this is a not so subtle way to undercut Bron being placed higher than Hakeem in the proverbial All-Time list, but I'll play along.

2011-2012 - present Bron would be great in any era, with a seemingly sharpened jump shot. However, in terms of dominance, with the way defenses were allowed to play, I think Lebron would be less productive overall.

Hakeem? Hakeem would be considered the GOAT center if he played in this era. He'd destroy opposing centers and power forwards, even more so than he did in the 80s and 90s. Imagine Brook Lopez or Pau Gasol or Deandre Jordan trying to cover Hakeem's first move, counter move, and counter to the counter move? :oldlol:

Doesn't mean Hakeem should be ranked higher than Bron on the All Time list. Though, I'm one of the few who thinks Hakeem's individual greatness is severely underrated.

[scm5]

Is this even a debate?

It's Hakeem all goddamn day.

How old are the people on this board? I feel like they have to be grade schoolers to be having a damn debate over this

Old enough to know that it's actually a topic worth debating.

Hakeem was one of the best ever, but for Lebron to be dismissed so easily is quite disturbing. Lebron is one of the most dominant players to ever grace the court and will probably end up higher on the GOAT list than Hakeem.

I'm not even a Lebron fan, I actually thought this was a good debate. All of you seem to be making Hakeem out to be on another level than Lebron when he wasn't.

[b1imtf]

Hakeem would rape evey single center in the league today... I'd take him purely based on the current crop of centers

[scm5]

Not sure if this is a not so subtle way to undercut Bron being placed higher than Hakeem in the proverbial All-Time list, but I'll play along.

2011-2012 - present Bron would be great in any era, with a seemingly sharpened jump shot. However, in terms of dominance, with the way defenses were allowed to play, I think Lebron would be less productive overall.

Hakeem? Hakeem would be considered the GOAT center if he played in this era. He'd destroy opposing centers and power forwards, even more so than he did in the 80s and 90s. Imagine Brook Lopez or Pau Gasol or Deandre Jordan trying to cover Hakeem's first move, counter move, and counter to the counter move? :oldlol:

Doesn't mean Hakeem should be ranked higher than Bron on the All Time list. Though, I'm one of the few who thinks Hakeem's individual greatness is severely underrated.

Offensively, Centers in this era aren't nearly as talented as ones in Hakeem's era. Defensively, the Centers in today's game are definitely in the same conversation as Centers in Hakeem's era.

Hakeem would not "shit all over" Centers in today's game like everyone thinks. He would actually probably do worse in today's league due to zone defenses (thanks to Shaq). If you don't think teams collapsing in on Centers everytime they touch the ball affects their offensive production, you're wrong.

Hakeem would no doubt be the clear cut best Center in today's game, but he's not putting up the same numbers he did through his career. Understand this.

[BlackVVaves]

Old enough to know that it's actually a topic worth debating.

Hakeem was one of the best ever, but for Lebron to be dismissed so easily is quite disturbing. Lebron is one of the most dominant players to ever grace the court and will probably end up higher on the GOAT list than Hakeem.

I'm not even a Lebron fan, I actually thought this was a good debate. All of you seem to be making Hakeem out to be on another level than Lebron when he wasn't.

I can't speak for other posters who very likely are speaking from behind an agenda-based veil, but for me, it's not a matter of Hakeem being on another level than Lebron. It's that the disparity between Hakeem and the likes of Dwight, Lopez, and Marc Gasol is far greater than the disparity between Lebron and the likes of Pippen, Drexler (I know he's considered a 2, but I'm sure he'd be matched up against Lebron), and James Worthy.

[chocolatethunder]

When Melo is being used as a main factor to support your argument for the strength of the position, I'm guessing the era isn't THAT strong.

80s had Bird, Worthy, Wilkins, Gervin, Erving, and then the Melo of the era, English. Probably others, can't remember right now.
/THREAD

[scm5]

I can't speak for other posters who very likely are speaking from behind an agenda-based veil, but for me, it's not a matter of Hakeem being on another level than Lebron. It's that the disparity between Hakeem and the likes of Dwight, Lopez, and Marc Gasol is far greater than the disparity between Lebron and the likes of Pippen, Drexler (I know he's considered a 2, but I'm sure he'd be matched up against Lebron), and James Worthy.

Hakeem would not put up similar numbers in this era. He would still be the best Center, but he's not putting up the same offensive numbers. There have been rule changes that make life much harder for Centers especailly. Allowing zone defenses and 3 seconds in the key. These were rules changed to contain Shaq's dominance and rules that Hakeem didn't play with during his prime.

If you think otherwise, I'm sorry, I'm not going to argue with you anymore because it would be pointless.

[BlackVVaves]

Offensively, Centers in this era aren't nearly as talented as ones in Hakeem's era. Defensively, the Centers in today's game are definitely in the same conversation as Centers in Hakeem's era.

Hakeem would not "shit all over" Centers in today's game like everyone thinks. He would actually probably do worse in today's league due to zone defenses (thanks to Shaq). If you don't think teams collapsing in on Centers everytime they touch the ball affects their offensive production, you're wrong.

Hakeem would no doubt be the clear cut best Center in today's game, but he's not putting up the same numbers he did through his career. Understand this.

I think you're wrong. The zone implementation would not affect Hakeem, who was an ELITE passer at his position (which would torch teams playing zone with assists to open wing players beyond the arc), and superb mid range shooter for his position, as adversely as other centers. Hakeem would likely average more rebounds, more assists, and slightly less points.

Also, if you think NBA centers today...the Asiks, the Dwights, the Chandlers...are as effective defensively as centers of yesteryears...the Ewings, the Mournings, the Mutombos, the Parishes, the David Robinsons...

Then I truly, truly don't know what to tell you.....

[scm5]

I think you're wrong. The zone implementation would not affect Hakeem, who was an ELITE passer (which would torch teams playing zone with assists to open wing players beyond the arc), and superb mid range shooter for his position, as adversely as other centers. Hakeem would likely average more rebounds, more assists, and slightly less points.

Also, if you think NBA centers today...the Asiks, the Dwights, the Chandlers...are as effective defensively as centers of yesteryears...the Ewings, the Mournings, the Mutombos, the Parishes, the David Robinsons...

Then I truly, truly don't know what to tell you.....

Hakeem's rebounding numbers would not change, there are actually fewer rebounds to be had in today's game than in Hakeem's era. I agree on more assists and less points though.

As for defensive Centers, I'm talking about Duncan, Dwight, Hibbert, Marc Gasol, Tyson Chandler, DJ. These guys are on par with the defensive Centers in Hakeem's era.

The ONLY reason the Centers in Hakeem's era are considered more dominant defensively is because of the 3-second rule. That is a pretty significant change.

[LBJFTW]

I think you're wrong. The zone implementation would not affect Hakeem, who was an ELITE passer at his position (which would torch teams playing zone with assists to open wing players beyond the arc), and superb mid range shooter for his position, as adversely as other centers. Hakeem would likely average more rebounds, more assists, and slightly less points.

Also, if you think NBA centers today...the Asiks, the Dwights, the Chandlers...are as effective defensively as centers of yesteryears...the Ewings, the Mournings, the Mutombos, the Parishes, the David Robinsons...

Then I truly, truly don't know what to tell you.....

Yep. The Dream would cause today's centers fits. They wouldn't even bother the dream honestly. He was that good.

[scm5]

When it comes to Centers, there have been such significant changes because of Shaq that it's impossible to deal with hypotheticals. I don't think the world just stopped producing dominant Centers, it's more like Shaq's dominance made it harder for Centers to be dominant because of the rule changes he caused.

3 seconds in the key: Something Centers always need to worry about. This affects their rebounding numbers as well as shot blocking numbers. They can't camp the key as well as they used to.

Zone defenses: Just look at Dwight. A large part of why he's so ineffective in the post is because of his turnovers. He is blind-sided and stripped all the time because of defenses collapsing on him. This is something Hakeem had to deal with to a much lesser extent in his era.

Hakeem would not put up the same numbers in this era that he did in his. He might put up more assists, but that's because of how truly great he was. He's not going to destroy present day Centers and drop 30+ night in and night out like most people think. He would in all likelihood average less points.

[KyleKong]

LeBron is the better player.

But Hakeem did play against much tougher players for his position.

[BlackVVaves]

When it comes to Centers, there have been such significant changes because of Shaq that it's impossible to deal with hypotheticals. I don't think the world just stopped producing dominant Centers, it's more like Shaq's dominance made it harder for Centers to be dominant because of the rule changes he caused.

3 seconds in the key: Something Centers always need to worry about. This affects their rebounding numbers as well as shot blocking numbers. They can't camp the key as well as they used to.

Zone defenses: Just look at Dwight. A large part of why he's so ineffective in the post is because of his turnovers. He is blind-sided and stripped all the time because of defenses collapsing on him. This is something Hakeem had to deal with to a much lesser extent in his era.

Hakeem would not put up the same numbers in this era that he did in his. He might put up more assists, but that's because of how truly great he was. He's not going to destroy present day Centers and drop 30+ night in and night out like most people think. He would in all likelihood average less points.


We agree to disagree then. The rule changes would simply change how Hakeem got his points on a consistent basis. He was the most versatile center in NBA history. If you think that wouldn't translate into production, especially against inferior centers in this generation of players, then what can I tell ya.

Also, Hakeem would be the best big man defender in the league. From his ability to pick big men's pockets every single game, to his reactionary quickness and ability to block your shot despite pump fakes, sly drives to the rim, or even 15 foot jump shots from bigs who liked to avoid his blocking prowess by taking those foul line shots.

You do Hakeem a great disservice by not recognizing both his innate physical ability, and his EXCEPTIONAL ball IQ, as well as supreme fundamentals.

[Solefade]

LeBron is the better player.

But Hakeem did play against much tougher players for his position.


this

[russwest0]

Old enough to know that it's actually a topic worth debating.

Hakeem was one of the best ever, but for Lebron to be dismissed so easily is quite disturbing. Lebron is one of the most dominant players to ever grace the court and will probably end up higher on the GOAT list than Hakeem.

I'm not even a Lebron fan, I actually thought this was a good debate. All of you seem to be making Hakeem out to be on another level than Lebron when he wasn't.

LeBron is on a stacked ass team going up against Rose and Melo in the playoffs. Scrubby ass "superstars"

Put Hakeem in this era and he'd make LeBron look like a d-leaguer.

Not Hakeems fault he played in the Jordan era

[SHAQisGOAT]

Lebron is perhaps playing in the most stacked era for SF's. Durant, PG, Melo are currently all dominant, but Lebron also played against Tmac, Pierce, and Iguodala (a bit of a stretch, but he's a dominant defensive player like Mutombo ).



:roll: :roll: :roll:


80s:

Larry Bird
Julius Erving
Dominique Wilkins
Adrian Dantley
Alex English
Bernard King
James Worthy
Jamaal Wilkes
Mark Aguirre
Marques Johnson
Paul Pressey
Purvis Short
Kiki Vandeweghe
Orlando Woolridge
Calvin Natt
Kelly Tripucka
Xavier McDaniel
Eddie Johnson
Robert Reid
Jerome Kersey
Mike Mitchell
Rodney McCray
Dennis Rodman
Phil Hubbard
Junior Bridgeman
Greg Ballard
Bill Hanzlik
.....

Even ****** that played SF considerably like Bobby Jones, Nance, Roundfield or Cooper, even Drexler or Gervin.

80s was the best era for SFs, not even a question about. Look some of those players up if you don't even know them.

[SHAQisGOAT]

3 seconds in the key: Something Centers always need to worry about. This affects their rebounding numbers as well as shot blocking numbers. They can't camp the key as well as they used to.

Zone defenses: Just look at Dwight. A large part of why he's so ineffective in the post is because of his turnovers. He is blind-sided and stripped all the time because of defenses collapsing on him. This is something Hakeem had to deal with to a much lesser extent in his era.

Hakeem would not put up the same numbers in this era that he did in his. He might put up more assists, but that's because of how truly great he was. He's not going to destroy present day Centers and drop 30+ night in and night out like most people think. He would in all likelihood average less points.


Goes both ways then though.. If you say they can't be as effective on D then players can be more effective on offense.

Double-teams were allowed and zones didn't mean you had to stick to your man like glue or even remotely close. Plus there's the 3-defensive seconds like you've said, and don't forget something like the restricted area arc.

Hakeem would ****ing rape this league, gtfoh. Every year at the very top MVP contender and DPOY.
Dwight was able to average 23 ppg once and he's a 3x DPOY, rebounds wouldn't be a problem for Hakeem and he could pass the ball.

[aj1987]

:roll: @ people overeating the players from the '90's and '80's and underrating today's players. :facepalm

Nostalgia at its finest.

[KingBeasley08]

:roll: @ people overeating the players from the '90's and '80's and underrating today's players. :facepalm

Nostalgia at its finest.
That's just how it is. Another thread had someone saying Bob Cousey would be one of the best players in the league. I'd be shocked if he could even make a good high school team

[LAZERUSS]

That's just how it is. Another thread had someone saying Bob Cousey would be one of the best players in the league. I'd be shocked if he could even make a good high school team

I agree. You would never see a 6-8 white guy lead the current NBA in rebounding. Or a 37 year old 6-3 white guy lead the current NBA in apg. Or a 6-11 white center lead the league in bpg.

And does anyone really believe that Pete Maravich could play in today's NBA? Or a Bill Walton? C'mon now...just ridiculous.

And you could carry that even further, too. The best players of the 70's were winning titles, scoring titles, rebounding titles, FG% titles...IN the Bird and Magic era. So, obviously Bird would be riding the bench in today's NBA, too.

[aj1987]

I agree. You would never see a 6-8 white guy lead the current NBA in rebounding. Or a 37 year old 6-3 white guy lead the current NBA in apg. Or a 6-11 white center lead the league in bpg.

And does anyone really believe that Pete Maravich could play in today's NBA? Or a Bill Walton? C'mon now...just ridiculous.

And you could carry that even further, too. The best players of the 70's were winning titles, scoring titles, rebounding titles, FG% titles...IN the Bird and Magic era. So, obviously Bird would be riding the bench in today's NBA, too.
Cousy would not be playing in the NBA today. Pistol? He would definitely be good, but not as good as he was.

Wilt and Russell would be the top players in the league as well, but Wilt wouldn't average 50-25 or 35-25 or something absurd like that.

20 years from now, people will consider that era to be the weakest and look back upon the good old '10's.

[get these NETS]

Hakeem was no doubt the greatest Center in his era. Although he did play against Shaq, it wasn't against Prime Shaq, which I consider part of another era.

Playing devil's advocate here, but I definitely think Lebron would be able to win a ring in that era. He would at the very least give Hakeem's teams a run for their money while MJ was out. Not even a Lebron fan, but to think he has no shot at it is ridiculous.

Bron is an alltime great......Wade is a great player....don't know if their teams could match up against the other superstars and those well balanced teams of that earlier era

celts/lakers teams of those eras have multiple HOFers, pistons beat the blood out of you, mj and scottie and the triangle..., and then those loaded west coast teams in mj's baseball days

[pauk]

Hakeem would have less competition at his position if he played in todays era, he would easily by far be the best Center, he would have perhaps been more dominant in this era.

... BUT.... Lebron would also have equally less competition at his position if he played in 90s era, even less actually to be honest, hell you could include all perimeter positions aswell, only Michael Jordan would be trouble.... there is a reason all the guys in the opencourt segment episode 3 agreed upon Lebron being better in the 90s than today.

[Round Mound]

Hakeem played in the most stacked era for Centers. He played against Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Mourning, Mutombo, Daugherty,... and a little bit against an over the hill Kareem.

Lebron is perhaps playing in the most stacked era for SF's. Durant, PG, Melo are currently all dominant, but Lebron also played against Tmac, Pierce, and Iguodala (a bit of a stretch, but he's a dominant defensive player like Mutombo ).

So far, they have both won two rings each.

Say they were inserted into the same era. Who would be regarded as the better player?

:no: The Most Stacked Era For SFs Was The 80s

[Round Mound]

:roll: :roll: :roll:


80s:

Larry Bird
Julius Erving
Dominique Wilkins
Adrian Dantley
Alex English
Bernard King
James Worthy
Jamaal Wilkes
Mark Aguirre
Marques Johnson
Paul Pressey
Purvis Short
Kiki Vandeweghe
Orlando Woolridge
Calvin Natt
Kelly Tripucka
Xavier McDaniel
Eddie Johnson
Robert Reid
Jerome Kersey
Mike Mitchell
Rodney McCray
Dennis Rodman
Phil Hubbard
Junior Bridgeman
Greg Ballard
Bill Hanzlik
.....

Even ****** that played SF considerably like Bobby Jones, Nance, Roundfield or Cooper, even Drexler or Gervin.

80s was the best era for SFs, not even a question about. Look some of those players up if you don't even know them.

:applause:

[juju151111]

Offensively, Centers in this era aren't nearly as talented as ones in Hakeem's era. Defensively, the Centers in today's game are definitely in the same conversation as Centers in Hakeem's era.

Hakeem would not "shit all over" Centers in today's game like everyone thinks. He would actually probably do worse in today's league due to zone defenses (thanks to Shaq). If you don't think teams collapsing in on Centers everytime they touch the ball affects their offensive production, you're wrong.

Hakeem would no doubt be the clear cut best Center in today's game, but he's not putting up the same numbers he did through his career. Understand this.
Teams callapsed on Hakeem all throughout the 90s. Go watch the 93 playoffs series vs Sonics. Why wouldn't he put up the same numbers. Duncan and KG was in the mid 2000s.

[Papaya Petee]

LeBrons already accomplished more than Hakeem, while being better individually.

Always believed that Hakeem was overrated, got bounced so many times in his life, and was overhyped because of the 2 title runs when MJ retired.

[LAZERUSS]

LeBrons already accomplished more than Hakeem, while being better individually.

Always believed that Hakeem was overrated, got bounced so many times in his life, and was overhyped because of the 2 title runs when MJ retired.

This.

:applause:

[chazzy]

overhyped because of the 2 title runs when MJ retired.
Both of Lebron's title runs happened after MJ retired as well

[thefatmiral]

hakeem, defense and skill, is just above lebron in my all time list.
jordan
kobe
duncan
hakeem
shaq
lebron
robinson

[LAZERUSS]

Both of Lebron's title runs happened after MJ retired as well

But Hakeem couldn't even get past the first round in eight of his 15 post-seasons. And most of those series were blowout defeats, too. MJ didn't have too much to do with that.

[Odinn]

Original thread.