Kblazes long boring post on defense.

[Kblaze8855]

Id like to take a moment to discuss a subject im very passionate about. Well....more than a moment. Id normally be in my car reading for an hour or so but its cooler than a polar bears toenail outside and I don't feel like just running the car the whole time for heat. So instead....I offer a grammatically terrible breakdown of what I love about defense and look for in a player I evaluate. some other cold day I will do the same for offense and perhaps merge the resulting 20-25 points into my list of the greatest players of all time. But for today.....defense.

I feel its both been disregarded lately and terribly misunderstood. Too often someone posts only an opposing players points and acts like some great point has been made or as if they really understood what allowed that player to go off or be held in check.

For the most part I feel a need to check for 10 aspects of defense with one honorable mention that's just a bonus.

Man to man.

Ball denial and positioning

Forcing the defense to account for you even if you aren't actually a great defender

Effort plays.

Off the ball drive prevention

Leadership

Hole filling/being well rounded

Intimidation

Changing the oppositions approach to the game

Rebounding

Honorable mention....

By any means.


1.

Man to man defense.

Often the only thing factored in by the dreaded "casual" fan. Preventing your man from beating you personally to a spot he can score from.

At one point in my life I may have valued it most of all but these days....when the ball handler can just carry and run by you, you get called for a foul if you respond by reaching, and you either have to let a guy shoot or honor the pump fake and be jumped into even if you didn't leave your feet....this is getting too hard to be the first thing I look for. So now I look mostly for how a player manipulates his man one on one. When the rules let him have the advantage you must do what you can to guide him to your help. One thing guys in the "handcheck era" were good at that is much harder now. Derek Harper would put his hand on a guys hip and kinda....encourage....him to drive into Ewing. Sound plan.

These days you have to do it with footwork. Know your teammates. If you have Shane Battier on your team position yourself so if you get beat its to run right into Battier who is gonna fall down like a bitch the moment hes bumped. Teams like the Heat have made it an art. I don't exactly like it....but I accept why its become the norm. Even back in the day the Rodmans, Laimbeers, and so on would play beautiful off the ball d and flop on command. If you cant keep your man in front of you...make sure your help is behind you. Simple concept...often poorly executed.

The guys who can straight up Gandalf:



http://drtech.bangordailynews.com/files/2013/09/you-shall-not-pass.jpg
a good player are rare.

I remember a game where Iman straight up "You shall not pass!"ed Wade on like 3 plays in a row. I almost shed a tear.



2.

Ball denial.

Watching John Starks chase Reggie Miller under, over, and through screens was a joy. And I remember like 7-8 years ago when Ray was like a 25ppg player he played the Bulls and went I think 9-30 because Kirk Hinrich had just moved inside his skin and he couldn't get a look at anything. Ray praised Kirk for it later. Just great to watch. But also nice...

Post denial. That's where the real battles are. Or used to be at least. Doesn't matter if you are Hakeem or Mutombo...a great bigman catches it 3 feet from the basket you cant do much. But what you can do is stop him from getting it at all. People great at it are probably the toughest players in the league in my opinion. These are some official titanium beard ****** whochew the bark off trees, rock iron headbands, and throw Suzuki jeeps at ****** for steppin on their footwear. For example:


http://i40.tinypic.com/292xmra.jpg


That's the NBA version of play in the trenches in football. Lineplay. What its all about. Post positioning and boxing out. Strictly for live men...not for freshmen. Speaking of boxing out...


3.

Defensive rebounding.

Often ignored but there is a reason many of the all time great defenders also went all out on the boards. Rodman, Russell, Wilt, Thurmond, Cowens, and so on.

Defense is over when your team has the ball. How many games were lost by second chance points?

It all matters. I can think of 3 games where a team wins a ring it otherwise lost if they grabbed a key defensive rebound. Getting defensive rebounds doesn't make you a good defender.

But if you don't help your team get them you will probably lose to someone who does.

4.

Play disruption by forcing the other team to look for you before they pass. I remember Hubie Brown going on and on years ago after a game vs the Cavs about how they kept getting disrupted by Lebron in the passing lanes then hesitating next time because they had to look for him. I think he had like 7 steals. Second or third season vs Memphis. Ive heard coaches say the same of Allen Iverson. some call it gambling(and it is) but the best tend to win. And even when they don't get the steal they create hesitation. And doubt in the minds of the offensive player is a friend of the defense. And on the issue of doubt...


5.

Intimidation. In more ways than just protecting the rim but...that comes first. Shaq didn't get dunked on in a straight up attacking manner more than twice in 18 years. Not because he was too quick to rotate. because people were shook of him. And if the other team wont attack you...you are effective even if you don't apply yourself as you could.

Then you have the guys who in some situations are so dangerous players fail just looking for them. We have all seen guys miss shots on the break with Lebron coming up behind them. Same with Prince. Bob Petitt said he once got his first two shots blocked by Russell then missed the next two looking for him. I respect that.

Perhaps my favorite example of it ever is the 01 ASG. Ive mentioned it before. Mcdyess gets the ball on the baseline nothing but Mutombo under the rim to stop him. This is a 6'9'' guy with a 40 inch vertical. Mutombo is just begging for him. Waving him in. Like he cant WAIT to reject this dude. And he passes it off instead.

You cant put a price on that.

[Kblaze8855]

6.

Drive prevention. The guys who don't block many shots(compared to some) or take many charges because they prevent drives from happening to begin with. Your Kevin Garnetts, your Tim Duncans, your Noahs, and so on. Guys who have their stats suffer because when you see the play develop and step to prevent a guard from using the space vacated by your teammate...you get no credit for it...but every coach sees it. And more fans should as well. But...for when you just aren't able to do that..

7.

Effort plays. There are lots of guys who are...barely even good defenders...who make up for it by effort. By trying to block EVERY shot and take EVERY charge. Guys like Theo Ratliff. Marcus Camby on the Nuggets. Dude won a DPOY he may not have deserved....but he won it off contesting EVERY shot his awful defensive teammates allowed to be taken in the paint.

Its not really the most effective. Guys who rely on reacting and not preventing often stack numbers on bad defenses....but its an aspect to consider. Some can do both prevention and going all out once that fails. Hakeem and Drob were two of them. Mutombo on the Nuggets and Hawks. clearly guys like Bill Russell. Its worthy of praise when you do both.

8.

Leadership. Kinda abstract but you know it when you see it. If you watch Kevin Garnett you see it. Or Jason Kidd. Or Scottie Pippen. Phil Jackson made a comment once that stuck with me. A truly great defensive leader needs a battlefield voice. A voice you hear over the fans and noise when it gets tough. Scottie Pippen had that. Kevin Garnett too.

One of my favorite clips was Rondo in 2008 stuck on an island vs...someone. may have been Wade. But he was gonna get worked. This isn't star Rondo. its "Can the Celtics win with Rondo at point" Rondo. rondo has the "Oh shit!" eyes. KG sees it...literally gets down to the floor and knocks on the hardwood to let Rondo know where his help is. Gives him instructions. rondo calms down and plays it smart. I saw it in a special on how KG "Changed the culture". Dude had total control out there and you need someone like that. Plenty of teams have capable defenders with nobody to keep it all together. Coaching helps...but you cant make up for that one guy who knows what everyone should be doing.

KG.
Pippen
Rasheed Wallace

Key aspect of any world class defense.


9.

Versatility.

There is a reason people are excited about guys like Pippen, Deng, Marion, and Lebron who can defend 4-5 positions(lets not have that argument...he shut down Parker and Rose and has played Hibbert, Gasol, Blake, and so on...shut the **** up). Most offenses are designed to find the advantageous matchup.

When you have a number of players who have a very limited number of guys you have to help them with you limit the potential of the offense to find that mismatch in the 15 or so seconds they have.

I remember Mike Woodsons Hawks. Josh, Joe, and Marvin. "Switch everything!" he would say. It didn't always work well...but 3 guys 6'8'' or so who could guard 1-4 on a switch....its not hard to see why he tried it.

Ive seen Scottie Pippen defend Tim Hardaway, Zo, and Mashburn in the same game. Ive seen Barkley do similar things so its not just elite defenders. Its pretty much...small forwards these days. Id say that's #1 on the list of what a good defensive 3 needs now. Battier can guard every 2-3 in the NBA most of the power forwards, and many of the pointguards....and probably 15+ centers. Lebron is the same. Having 2 of those guys is almost unfair.


10.

The ability to change how the opponent approaches the game.

Harder to define. But ill give some examples...

Gary Payton at times was so pesky teams let bigmen bring the ball up against his press to keep it away from the man GP was on. Ive seen Vlade on the Lakers bring it up to protect his guards vs GP. You see guys start posting up at halfcourt like Mark Jackson. Gary just made you work around him.

I heard a story claiming Bob Petitt retired his hook shot the first time he played Bill Russell because he just caught it.

Bob McAdoo used to whore Dave Cowens statistically but its said that by the 4th quarter Bob was so battered and sore he would catch it 20 feet from the basket and faceup instead of 12-15 feet and post up. So he scored 35-40. But most of it early in the game. Charley Rosen listed Bob as overrated because of it.

Dennis rodman used to defend the inbounder....on some made baskets. Just because teams liked to run off made shots. Get it in quick and attack. So Dennis stays in the paint and bothers the inbounder like its a last second play. slows the break. his team gets back on D.

That is guys making the other team change its gameplan and other players rebuild their games on the fly because they cant get what they want.

And making the offensive uncomfortable is half the battle.


Honorable mention....


http://f0.bcbits.com/img/a2087156612_10.jpg


Here I honor the scumbags.

Dennis Rodman talking your head off and bumping you all night then flopping when you bump him back.

Ron Artest pulling Pierces shorts down:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moPdW0YBYgE

Dolph schayes playing with a broken arm for 2 years beating people with the cast like a club.

Bruce Bowen in general:


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/--aLPOU2NcQs/TrIBpBfV9OI/AAAAAAAATLU/N_TWmX4mAkA/s640/bowen_kick.jpg



http://www.slamonline.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/szczberiak.gif



Sometimes you gotta kick a dude in the face to get the job done.

Some of these players are just bullies. Karl Malone. Laimbeer. But often its just part of doing business.

It has its place.

[Kblaze8855]

And considering all of the above....(and anything you feel I left out)


Who would you rank as the best total defender ever and the best you have seen?


Is there any case against Bill Russell having all 11 qualities? I think the first time he played Neil Johnson(scoring leader at the time) he held him scoreless for like 40 minutes. He defended 1-5 if he had to. Does he lack any of the 11?


Far as people I saw a lot of....id say Pippen has the most of those qualities. Pippen or Rodman with KG a notch behind.

I think its fair to credit Pippen with 9 of those.

Not that just how many decides how great you are. Most small forwards only need #9 and perhaps #1. Pointguards don't really....need....any of them. And few have more than #1. And not many have even that.

So it varies by position.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Ron Artest pulling Pierces shorts down:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moPdW0YBYgEThat play really pissed me off. I was screaming at the tv, wondering if there was anything they wouldn't let Artest get away with. And he knew it, and pulled Pierce's shorts down just to rub it in.

[KobesFinger]

Great stuff. I never saw Pippen in his prime live so KG is the best defender I've ever seen

[iamgine]

Such a long post without mentioning this guy:

http://www.nba.com/sixers/photos/six_110718_jones_670.jpg

[MP.Trey]

Is there any case against Bill Russell having all 11 qualities? I think the first time he played Neil Johnson(scoring leader at the time) he held him scoreless for like 40 minutes. He defended 1-5 if he had to. Does he lack any of the 11?
He's lacking the "by any means necessary" maybe? Any stories you know of where Russell bullied opposing players or anything like that?

[gts]

That play really pissed me off. I was screaming at the tv, wondering if there was anything they wouldn't let Artest get away with. And he knew it, and pulled Pierce's shorts down just to rub it in.I'm sure it did but it's so playground you have to appreciate it. The very fact it's in his bag of tricks still cracks me up when I see it

[Micku]

This is a really great post. It should be an article somewhere on ESPN or something.

I would think that KG, Pippen, and Duncan really fit most of those categories. Michael Jordan as well. I think MJ fits about 8 of those categories, especially the passing lanes. People never really mention it, but he is third all time on steals behind Kidd and Stockton, and he played less seasons than them. He may be the best at intercepting the passing lanes. Though he also have very quick hands and could steal the ball right from under you too.

But in terms of man to man defense, versatility,and impact the best I ever saw was Pippen on Mark Jackson in the playoffs of 1998. He was horrible at scoring, just like everyone was in that series except for Michael Jordan. But Pippen won that game 1 for them with is defense. Probably the MVP on the floor who couldn't even make a shot. Mark Jackson struggled to get it up the court with Pippen on him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhSBTI-txak#t=06m38s

There aren't many highlights of Pippen defense on him, so you would have to watch the game yourself. But only was his defense on him was amazing, but the help defense was perfect. Mark Jackson struggled to get the ball up, tried to pass it, and when he tried to get the ball back. And you'll see MJ intercepting the passing lanes too. Great defense. One of the best perimeter defense I ever seen in a basketball game.

[Teanett]

He's lacking the "by any means necessary" maybe? Any stories you know of where Russell bullied opposing players or anything like that?

i think we can see that as obligatory if you want to win 11 rings?

[East_Stone_Ya]

I totally agree on the leadership part :applause:

[La Frescobaldi]

Russell was old by the time I watched him but his defense was always tops. Always.
Wilt Chamberlain had the highest peak I've seen. In the '71 & '72 seasons he could and did shut down entire teams sometimes for several minutes - blocked or altered every shot, got all rebounds, had steals clear out close to where the 3 line would be 10 years later. His D was great before that but it was just astonishing the things he was doing on defense after he stopped scoring (i.e., he changed his game after his knee blew out in '70). He was still terrific in his final season, but I thought he kinda ran out of gas in '73 compared to earlier.
I've seen some pretty amazing defense over the years, but those seasons ring on & on in the memory as "The Standard" for me.

That said, Nate Thurmond is probably the guy who consistently brought it, game in, game out, year after year more than anybody else. To me, we are talking about the greatest of all defensive players here, in Nate Thurmond.
Of that older generation also gotta give a shout out to John Havlicek & Satch Sanders. Russell was an elite defender, but he had two elite guys working full blast right beside him too. The entire NBA feared Havlicek in transition defense because he just made everyone pay.

Perimeter players became more and more important as the 3 ball began being used more and more..... even in the early 80s a Moses Malone or a Big Chief or a Bob Lanier was still the defensive bulwark of their team...... by the 90s that had changed dramatically and so it seems, permanently.
Pippen has been the best perimeter defense man that I've seen and that includes guys like the Glove, Walt Frazier, Jerry West, Dumars and all the rest. Scottie was able to balance his energy levels on both ends of the court and give full devastating impact whatever he was doing. He couldn't, in my opinion, completely take over games the way Frazier could, and he couldn't punish the entire league with his offense like the Logo.... but he's up there at those levels and beyond when we are talking defense.

A guy today that plays terrific defense is Tyson Chandler. That dude is something else. Only guy I've seen that can box out Pekovic all game, and then after 47 minutes of that.... box out both Pekovic and K Love at the end of the game. That fellow Vucevic on the Magic , he may turn out to be pretty good.

But to me it's gotta be Chamberlain as the best at his peak defensively, Thurmond over his career, and Pippen on the perimeter.

[jlip]

He's lacking the "by any means necessary" maybe? Any stories you know of where Russell bullied opposing players or anything like that?


Read this article written by Russell in 1965.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1077812/1/index.htm

[MP.Trey]

Read this article written by Russell in 1965.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1077812/1/index.htm
I'm reading the first page now. Seems like a great read so far and very informative, this is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks, repped. :cheers:

[SHAQisGOAT]

Great read!


Such a long post without mentioning this guy:

http://www.nba.com/sixers/photos/six_110718_jones_670.jpg


:applause: :bowdown:

[#number6ix#]

I think discipline is an important quality on defense... In order to follow through with the coach's vision, rotate properly,and not help 1 pass away displine is paramount...

[pauk]

Fun read as always Kblaze. :applause:



PS: I think you owned my "1500 word essay"? :(

[CavaliersFTW]

Fun read as always Kblaze. :applause:



PS: I think you owned my "1500 word essay"? :(
^ - well... yours was done irrationally in anger in response to Kobe straight up owning Lebron at an all star game. You "blamed" Kobe in a negative way for Lebron's failure to cope with his good defense. You made it seem like Kobe did a bad thing - when in fact Kobe stole the show that night and played a great game, Lebron just couldn't handle him that night. You proceeded to dump a mountain of text explaining why you felt Kobe's actions (playing good basketball...) were totally unjustifiable.

In short, your essay was a shortsighted irrational reaction mustered up by anger. Where as Kblaze has gifted us with a lengthy even keeled highly informative post.

[andgar923]

I may be in the minority, but I believe KG will go down as the best defender of all time.

Still can

[pauk]

And considering all of the above....(and anything you feel I left out)


Who would you rank as the best total defender ever and the best you have seen?


Is there any case against Bill Russell having all 11 qualities? I think the first time he played Neil Johnson(scoring leader at the time) he held him scoreless for like 40 minutes. He defended 1-5 if he had to. Does he lack any of the 11?


Far as people I saw a lot of....id say Pippen has the most of those qualities. Pippen or Rodman with KG a notch behind.

I think its fair to credit Pippen with 9 of those.

Not that just how many decides how great you are. Most small forwards only need #9 and perhaps #1. Pointguards don't really....need....any of them. And few have more than #1. And not many have even that.

So it varies by position.

Scottie Pippen, followed by Rodman and yes i have to say Lebron aswell.
I can think of many more complete defenders obviously if i excluded the versatility part, but i cant let that go as i think that is one extremly authorative facet of defense.... its just damn exciting to see a guy shut down anybody he wants....

Still cant believe Pippen didnt win DPOY....

[Kblaze8855]

Lebron is well rounded on defense but no more so than many others. Like shawn Marion. Ive seen him do a good job on both Tony Parker and Yao Ming for stretches. Not shut down.. But hold his own. Same for a guy like diaw who isnt even a great defender. Ive seen him guard 2 guards and centers in the same game.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Scottie Pippen, followed by Rodman and yes i have to say Lebron aswell.
I can think of many more complete defenders obviously if i excluded the versatility part, but i cant let that go as i think that is one extremly authorative facet of defense.... its just damn exciting to see a guy shut down anybody he wants....

Still cant believe Pippen didnt win DPOY....
LeBron is not a leader on defense like Pippen/KG though.

[Legends66NBA7]

I may be in the minority, but I believe KG will go down as the best defender of all time.

Still can’t think of a player that could (can) guard every position on the court as effectively as he can.

Hakeem Olajuwon ?

Or was he just more of a post defender ?

[andgar923]

Hakeem Olajuwon ?

Or was he just more of a post defender ?

More of a post defender.

Honestly I don

[IGOTGAME]

[QUOTE=andgar923]I may be in the minority, but I believe KG will go down as the best defender of all time.

Still can

[SCdac]

I miss low scoring, grind em out, tenacious defense kind of ball. Spurs/Pistons Finals is still my favorite of all time.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

5.

Intimidation. In more ways than just protecting the rim but...that comes first. Shaq didn't get dunked on in a straight up attacking manner more than twice in 18 years. Not because he was too quick to rotate. because people were shook of him. And if the other team wont attack you...you are effective even if you don't apply yourself as you could.

Then you have the guys who in some situations are so dangerous players fail just looking for them. We have all seen guys miss shots on the break with Lebron coming up behind them. Same with Prince. Bob Petitt said he once got his first two shots blocked by Russell then missed the next two looking for him. I respect that.

Perhaps my favorite example of it ever is the 01 ASG. Ive mentioned it before. Mcdyess gets the ball on the baseline nothing but Mutombo under the rim to stop him. This is a 6'9'' guy with a 40 inch vertical. Mutombo is just begging for him. Waving him in. Like he cant WAIT to reject this dude. And he passes it off instead.

You cant put a price on that.

This was pretty funny from earlier this year:

http://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/large/820330927.gif

[Harison]

Good read :applause:

IMHO Russell is the GOAT defender, he is on Top or near in every single category. No shortcoming, always driven. Also the prototype of defensive quaterback.

After him there is a solid group of elite defenders, with certain strengths and weaknesses.

Lets take Hakeem, definitely up there with Rus, DRob or motivated Wilt, but he wasnt quaterback per se, neither was Wilt, Kareem, DRob or Rodman. Each were spectacular defenders individually, but they didnt ran the defense like elite guards run offense (i.e. what Rus and KG do).

IMO orchestrating team defense is as important as being elite individually. Sum is more than its parts, one player simply cant cover everything, as great as they are.

[chips93]

when im watching defense, im more watching for mistakes, at what point does the defense crack, and who's fault is it, and then can his teammates make up for it.

the way offenses work today, i mostly look at, can a perimeter player fight over a screen (on or off the ball), in a pick and roll, can the defensive big man stop the guard getting into the paint, does the defensive guard recover after getting picked, and can the defensive big recover back to his original man.

if there is some breakdown there, are the other 3 defensive players alert, and do they rotate in time, and to the correct players.

i guess i mostly look for what players do poorly on defense, rather than what they do well. so i am probably a bit harsh, when judging guys on defense, because i mostly think of their weaknesses.

[Pointguard]

Not that just how many decides how great you are. Most small forwards only need #9 and perhaps #1. Pointguards don't really....need....any of them. And few have more than #1. And not many have even that.

So it varies by position.

Great posts.

I was discussing PG duties as it relates to defense in another thread. Its covered in part under your number 10. Change the opponents approach to the game.

The control of the clock is something that's very much in the Point Guard's hands. Included in that is stopping the other team from running, along with delaying the initiation of the offense if they can. It doesn't seem like much but it is key playing the game on your own terms. As in football, controlling the clock allows for lesser talented teams to beat super talented teams (Tony Parker and Kidd were masters of this) and its one of the main reasons why Miami lost to one and was just about to lose to the other. There is always a pressure building in another team when they aren't in their comfort zone in terms of playing ball their way.

Even Lebron doesn't like to play at somebody else's pace. You mess up a team's timing, it messes with their cohesion and even trust if you apply pressure with it. To me, its the main reason why young teams have trouble in the playoffs, as older teams can settle down easier and are more likely to say this is going down my way. Only tight organization can battle it, notice as Popovich, runs his operation in a military clockwork, and its why SA is always in the thick of things. Its also why SA only wanted Kidd in their PG pursuits. When I coach, I notice pacing/pressure effects on different age groups.

It was also the underlying story of when Detroit beat the Lakers as well as Billups was masterful.

[Micku]

[QUOTE=andgar923]More of a post defender.

Honestly I don

[97 bulls]

This is a really great post. It should be an article somewhere on ESPN or something.

I would think that KG, Pippen, and Duncan really fit most of those categories. Michael Jordan as well. I think MJ fits about 8 of those categories, especially the passing lanes. People never really mention it, but he is third all time on steals behind Kidd and Stockton, and he played less seasons than them. He may be the best at intercepting the passing lanes. Though he also have very quick hands and could steal the ball right from under you too.

But in terms of man to man defense, versatility,and impact the best I ever saw was Pippen on Mark Jackson in the playoffs of 1998. He was horrible at scoring, just like everyone was in that series except for Michael Jordan. But Pippen won that game 1 for them with is defense. Probably the MVP on the floor who couldn't even make a shot. Mark Jackson struggled to get it up the court with Pippen on him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhSBTI-txak#t=06m38s

There aren't many highlights of Pippen defense on him, so you would have to watch the game yourself. But only was his defense on him was amazing, but the help defense was perfect. Mark Jackson struggled to get the ball up, tried to pass it, and when he tried to get the ball back. And you'll see MJ intercepting the passing lanes too. Great defense. One of the best perimeter defense I ever seen in a basketball game.
I agree. Scottie Pippen had some of the most memorable defensive efforts vs players. And not just a play or two. He literally owned that player. Penny Hardaway in 96, John Stockton in 98, Magic in 91. He literally had these guys visibly flustered to the point that id give those games as much credit as a 50pt game.

[I<3NBA]

goddamn Kblaze. this should be an ISH insider request. now go and sell this to some sports website (that will actually pay you)

[Pointguard]

[QUOTE=andgar923]I may be in the minority, but I believe KG will go down as the best defender of all time.

Still can

[andgar923]

I would agree with you if KG had a defensive minded coach closer to his prime. His main team strengths were leadership, inspiration and being the best communicator I think ever played. I went to a Celtics game in 08 at near court level and was astonished at how amped and verbal they were on defense. Its definitely going to be the future of the game. Their close outs were like a living single celled organism.

What was amazing was that these guys were not natural or habitual defensive guys that KG had moving, nor were they used to the sets when I saw them. If KG had defensive pieces and a defensive coach in his prime I think he would have the title of defensive King. Communication with energy behind it will trump all other defensive arrangements in the future of the game. KG's influence in this regard will transcend all the others as you rarely hear anybody say they want to play defense like _________. I think most Bigs play the Wilt prototype defense.

Nor can anyone say that they played a smarter defense as he made great decisions (he knew plays very well) and aggressively killed pick and rolls as good as anybody.

I never saw Russell play.

But I

[KevinNYC]

Great, well thought out post.

However, should intelligence and anticipation be part of your 11? Or do those play into the 11? I thought of that Bill Russell article and how smart he was about defense.

Also the Bobby Jones photo made me think about Bird. Folks who didn't get to see the younger Larry Bird play have because convinced he was some defensive liability, when he actually had big defensive impact because how well he could anticipate plays and how quickly he would react to where the ball was goinn. He's not a Pippen or a Garnett where he could defend multiple guys, but he always seemed to be making plays, especially off the ball.

[Jailblazers7]

#3 is why I don't understand how people say Kevin Love is a terrible defender. He gets 11 defensive rebounds a game. All the has to do is play solids positional defense to be at least an average defender with those type of rebounding numbers

[ZenMaster]

You tied it in with your point on leadership, but I think communication is something all good defenders should be good at. They can't all have the leadership abilites but if you want to play good defense you should be talking a lot of the time.

Coaching young guys the single hardest part is to get them to talk and communicate with each other, I get it, they play games in what's basically underwear and they have to yell stuff out that makes sense only to them, it's a mental barrier.

A while ago I read a Igoudala interview, he mentioned that on Lebrons chase down blocks he makes a call, a number or something to the defender closest to the ball and they will make a play on the guy so that he sidesteps and can't dunk, Lebron times it for that moment. I think that's pretty impressive.

Love the point about the battle ground voice, it's dead on.

[Kblaze8855]

Love is odd. The rare crazy rebounding 4 who somehow manages to play soft at times. He really doesnt seem to try very hard on that side of the ball outside of rebounding. But ive only seen him once this year.

[fpliii]

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Dr.J4ever]

Such a long post without mentioning this guy:

http://www.nba.com/sixers/photos/six_110718_jones_670.jpg
Exactly. Jones wasnt just a great defender. He was a great clutch defender. Always with the steal or block or charge at just the right time.

[Harison]

I may be in the minority, but I believe KG will go down as the best defender of all time.

I dont know about that, but KG certainly has an argument as the best defender of the Modern Era:

http://asubstituteforwar.wordpress.com/2011/04/23/howard-is-the-dpoy-but-hes-no-garnett/

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=308314

On Celtics it meant they had Top1 defense when he played, and by far the worst defense in NBA when he didnt (33 points allowed difference!). The way he communicates and holds everyone accountable is uncanny. Even star players who were never known for their defense were inspired to play D. How many All-time players can claim that? Russell, KG, and...?

[BallsOut]

And considering all of the above....(and anything you feel I left out)


Who would you rank as the best total defender ever and the best you have seen?


Is there any case against Bill Russell having all 11 qualities? I think the first time he played Neil Johnson(scoring leader at the time) he held him scoreless for like 40 minutes. He defended 1-5 if he had to. Does he lack any of the 11?


Far as people I saw a lot of....id say Pippen has the most of those qualities. Pippen or Rodman with KG a notch behind.

I think its fair to credit Pippen with 9 of those.

Not that just how many decides how great you are. Most small forwards only need #9 and perhaps #1. Pointguards don't really....need....any of them. And few have more than #1. And not many have even that.

So it varies by position.

It's between KG and Prime Ron Artest for me. Both those guys have all of the 10 qualities you mention because not only could they change a game defensively, they could do it and get the fans involved, lift their team emotionally (no offense to Duncan or Marion who were great also but just relatively quiet guys).

Ron in his prime, wouldn't give you an inch in the post, poke more balls out of players hands than cp3 after a dead whistle and later on in his career would give you an elbow to the head if all else failed.

KG early on in his career was a hybrid of Russell, grabbing balls out of the air instead of blocking them, and Gary Payton, hounding guards, talking psychological trash and later on in his career one of the best help defenders while still hounding guards and psychological talking trash albeit more bark than results, but the intimidation is still there.

A very underrated aspect of defense is the ability to mentally take in what the offensive player says to you, to try to get in your head. I remember the 2010 NBA Finals when Pierce was calling Ron a psycho, and how he was crazy. How did Ron respond? He didn't say a word, he locked down Pierce in that game where Pierce had prior quoted "We ain't goin back to LA" after grabbing a 2-1 lead on the Lakers.

[I<3NBA]

no one can get under the skin of opponents like Rodman can. combine that with his elite defending and i consider him to be the ultimate defender.

when you look back on it, that Bulls team with Rodman, Jordan, and Pippen were crazy good defensively. truly unfair for opposing teams.

[KevinNYC]

no one can get under the skin of opponents like Rodman can. combine that with his elite defending and i consider him to be the ultimate defender.

when you look back on it, that Bulls team with Rodman, Jordan, and Pippen were crazy good defensively. truly unfair for opposing teams.
Don't forget Ron Harper. In his early days he was an elite defender and was still good in his days with the Bulls.

So you had to bring the ball up against either Pippen, Jordan or Harper. Not fair is right.

[Cali Syndicate]

If you wrote a book, I would buy it.

[Jailblazers7]

Love is odd. The rare crazy rebounding 4 who somehow manages to play soft at times. He really doesnt seem to try very hard on that side of the ball outside of rebounding. But ive only seen him once this year.

Yeah, sometimes his rotations can be downright bad. There were a couple times last night that really stood out where Denver was just straight up getting lay-ups because Minny's bigs were glued to their man.

I just think people mysteriously forget about his rebounding when they say he is a terrible defender. Might not play the best man principles sometimes but he makes up for a lot of it with his rebounding.

[Pointguard]

I dont know about that, but KG certainly has an argument as the best defender of the Modern Era:

http://asubstituteforwar.wordpress.com/2011/04/23/howard-is-the-dpoy-but-hes-no-garnett/

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=308314

On Celtics it meant they had Top1 defense when he played, and by far the worst defense in NBA when he didnt (33 points allowed difference!). The way he communicates and holds everyone accountable is uncanny. Even star players who were never known for their defense were inspired to play D. How many All-time players can claim that? Russell, KG, and...?
Good post and great links.

If KG had a coach that worked with his strengths - he only had Thibes for that 1 healthy year and won it all immediately - he would have been known as the best defensive player. Teams always uncomfortably went to plan three against that Celtics team. Great penetrators didn't even think about going hard to the rim. That was masterful.

[Kblaze8855]

With that kick to Pauls I think its safe to make Tony Allen down with a #11.

[steve]

Two guys I'm surprised aren't being mentioned in here more (one of whom I'm surprised KBlaze didn't mention in his post...unless I glanced over him) are Bill Walton and Ben Wallace.

[LA Lakers]

Excellent post. I would say Scottie Pippen embodies most of the qualities that you listed for various reasons. Perhaps not as versatile outside of his lockdown perimeter defense and lightning quick ability to get back in transition after picking a passing lane or double teaming some unlucky guy with some help from Jordan, Pippen was the defender of the decade. And he was more importantly a defensive anchor on a team of defensive anchors.
Coop has been acknowledged by no less a player than Larry Bird as the best defender he went up against. Coop had extremely long arms and i think his length and intelligence on keeping up with Larry Birds and Dr. Js and other exceptional players footwork allowed for that swarming trap defense we saw from Showtime and that we see from so many successful Pat Riley teams. Gary Payton gets an honorable mention because I have never seen a better perimeter pg defender. It wasnt just his full court pressure, he wouldnt let you get past him. You didnt need help defense with Gary Payton. His man wasnt getting past him and it was that simple. Bruce Bowen gets a shoutout for trying to guard Kobe Bryant and occasionally being a major pesk.
Bill Laimbeer has to be acknowledged. He was the ultimate bully and the fact that he was willing to hurt you bad, physically I think played into the fear and fight that a team had to go thru if it wanted to win against the Bad Boys. Hakeem Olajuwon and Tim Duncan arent getting any mentions or credit for their incredible athletic ability to defend the high pick n roll and protect the basket, playing man to man, anchoring their teams defense etc etc etc. Hakeem and Duncan are beyond equal. Obviously KG and Battier have been able to stretch out there careers I would argue that Battier isnt able to effectively guard most 4's as well as KBLAZE makes out, if Miami meets a Clippers or Grizzlies in the finals, it will be a hard task getting Battier to guard a Blake Griffin or ZBO for stretches... But I digress, another shout out, someone mentioned 72 Wilt earlier, which I find strange because to my knowledge and speaking with people who watched those Lakers teams, I always heard Wilt was passed his prime at that point... Bill Russells stats and 11 Championships speak for themselves, we know Russell's legacy of winning was built upon his work on blocking/altering shots and grabbing boards. So yeah, this is a great discussion.

[LA Lakers]

I forgot to mention Mutumbo for rim protection and intimidation. Other than that, its the usual suspects: Rodman, Oakley, Ewing etc etc etc