Highest Finals series PPG in NBA History

[Deuce Bigalow]

Michael Jordan, 1993 Finals - 41.0
Rick Barry, 1967 Finals - 40.8
Elgin Baylor, 1962 Finals - 40.6
Shaquille O'Neal, 2000 Finals - 38.0
Jerry West, 1969 Finals - 37.9
Shaquille O'Neal, 2002 Finals - 36.3
Michael Jordan, 1992 Finals - 35.8
Allen Iverson, 2001 Finals - 35.6
Dwyane Wade, 2006 Finals - 34.7
Jerry West, 1966 Finals - 33.9
Elgin Baylor, 1963 Finals - 33.8
Jerry West, 1965 Finals - 33.8
Michael Jordan, 1998 Finals - 33.5
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, 1980 Finals - 33.4
Shaquille O'Neal, 2001 Finals - 33.0
Hakeem Olajuwon, 1995 Finals - 32.8
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, 1974 Finals - 32.6
Kobe Bryant, 2009 Finals - 32.4
Michael Jordan, 1997 Finals - 32.3
George Mikan, 1950 Finals - 32.2
Jerry West, 1968 Finals - 31.3
Jerry West, 1970 Finals - 31.3
Michael Jordan, 1991 Finals - 31.2
Jerry West, 1962 Finals - 31.1
Kevin Durant, 2012 Finals - 30.6
Julius Erving, 1977 Finals - 30.3
Bob Pettit, 1957 Finals - 30.1

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Allen Iverson - 2001 - 35.6

[Jameerthefear]

Jordan :applause:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Allen Iverson - 2001 - 35.6
Thanks I knew I missed at least one

[SamuraiSWISH]

MJ and Shaq going balls deep in that list.

[guy]

Missed 1991 Jordan 31.2 ppg

[jzek]

Yeah but how many times did Jordan lose in the Finals?









































































Oh yeah, he never lost!

MJ proving yet AGAIN why he's the GOAT.

[Deuce Bigalow]

No surprise that Wilt the "Big Dipper" didn't make the cut

[sportjames23]

Jordan :applause:


GOAT gonna GOAT. :bowdown:

[branslowski]

Where's LeBron? lol troll face

[jlip]

No surprise that Wilt the "Big Dipper" didn't make the cut

Do you ever get tired of this?

[jlip]

Yeah but how many times did Jordan lose in the Finals?

Oh yeah, he never lost!

MJ proving yet AGAIN why he's the GOAT.


How is regurgitating the same argument that's been used a million times proving anything "again"?

[fpliii]

How is regurgitating the same argument that's been used a million times proving anything "again"?

Insecurity, most likely. Not speaking about him in particular, but in general if you're repeating the same shit over and over on one of these message boards, rather than trying to convince others of position, you're most likely trying to convince yourself.

Just an observation.

[Psileas]

West, simply incredible, with an all-time record of 6 Finals' series of 30+ ppg. :applause:
The list doesn't even mention his 1962 series.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Do you ever get tired of this?
Shaq, Kareem, and Hakeem easily were able to achieve this, even the great George Mikan did it. How come a supposed "top 3 center ever" could't do it once? Russell is excluded because he wasn't known for his offense and he has 11 rings anyway so he didn't need too.

[#number6ix#]

D wade!!!!! 34.7 :bowdown:

[#number6ix#]

2006 Refs put up 12 - 15 ppg of that 34.7 average to be honest.

:oldlol:
He was aggressive and it paid off... It's not his fault mavs couldn't keep out of the lane... Or maybe it is

[#number6ix#]

I agree. Wade took advantage of those weak 2006 rules, absolutely. And he also took advantage of the Mavs weak interior defense. Dirk not having any defensive presence couldn't help in that regard. But it doesn't change the fact Wade got a ton of ridiculously soft calls that kind of put an asterisk next to the numbers he was putting up.
He's a breakdown on just about all the fouls from game 6(couldn't find game5) which was a game everybody was saying the refs gave wade all the calls

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X2zonUdXJkQ

[jlip]

Shaq, Kareem, and Hakeem easily were able to achieve this, even the great George Mikan did it. How come a supposed "top 3 center ever" could't do it once? Russell is excluded because he wasn't known for his offense and he has 11 rings anyway so he didn't need too.

Ok. That's fine. But question still remains...Do you ever get tired of your "Wilt sucks" agenda? At what point does it become boring?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Michael Jordan, 1993 Finals - 41.0
Rick Barry, 1967 Finals - 40.8
Elgin Baylor, 1962 Finals - 40.6
Shaquille O'Neal, 2000 Finals - 38.0
Jerry West, 1969 Finals - 37.9
Shaquille O'Neal, 2002 Finals - 36.3
Michael Jordan, 1992 Finals - 35.8
Allen Iverson, 2001 Finals - 35.6
Dwyane Wade, 2006 Finals - 34.7
Jerry West, 1966 Finals - 33.9
Elgin Baylor, 1963 Finals - 33.8
Jerry West, 1965 Finals - 33.8
Michael Jordan, 1998 Finals - 33.5
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, 1980 Finals - 33.4
Shaquille O'Neal, 2001 Finals - 33.0
Hakeem Olajuwon, 1995 Finals - 32.8
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, 1974 Finals - 32.6
Kobe Bryant, 2009 Finals - 32.4
Michael Jordan, 1997 Finals - 32.3
George Mikan, 1950 Finals - 32.2
Jerry West, 1968 Finals - 31.3
Jerry West, 1970 Finals - 31.3
Michael Jordan, 1991 Finals - 31.2
Jerry West, 1962 Finals - 31.1
Kevin Durant, 2012 Finals - 30.6
Julius Erving, 1977 Finals - 30.3
Bob Pettit, 1957 Finals - 30.1:biggums:

MONEY

GOAT gonna GOAT, I guess

[#number6ix#]

I thought Wade's solo superhero turn around for the Heat was ridiculous. Will power and competitiveness I agree. I'm not diminishing his performance. I'm just putting it in perspective.

You can't possibly believe Wade wasn't the recipient of some notoriously bad calls, at large volume ... getting a lot of those points off the free throw line, and not off buckets?

He was hitting nice mid range shots from time to time, especially on the bank. He took advantage of the refs, as he should've, but in context with all the soft calls it skews the performance.

Obviously a Heat fan would vehemently disagree and defend it regardless. There is no objectivity right now from you it seems. You're a great young poster though.
I have no problem conceding the fact that wade got some calls in his favor

[b1imtf]

2006 Refs put up 12 - 15 ppg of that 34.7 average to be honest.

:oldlol:
12,5

[CavaliersFTW]

Yeah but how many times did Jordan lose in the Finals?

Oh yeah, he never lost!

MJ proving yet AGAIN why he's the GOAT.
horrible logic, where not making it to the final series of the season at all is treated as better than making it that far but losing once your there :facepalm

P.S. Sam Jones did the whole 'never lost an NBA Finals' thing more times than MJ did :cheers:

[CavaliersFTW]

Jerry West's name appears more often than anyone's :applause:

Baylor had most points ever scored in 1 game in an NBA finals with 61 :bowdown:

[fpliii]

horrible logic, where not making it to the final series of the season at all is treated as better than making it that far but losing once your there :facepalm

P.S. Sam Jones did the whole 'never lost an NBA Finals' thing more times than MJ did :cheers:

Just one minor correction my good man, Sam Jones lost in 58. Hondo and KC both went to the Finals and never lost more than MJ though.

:cheers:

But yeah, hate that ****ing argument. Somehow losing PRIOR to the Finals absolves you of any blame, while losing a round earlier is a complete indictment on your career/ability.

[fpliii]

No dumb ass, it means once MJ had a supporting cast capable of supplementing him on a championship capable level ... When he had just enough tools to justifiably win, he never lost.

Sam Jones consistently played on stacked Celtic squads. He didn't have anything like MJ's 85 - 90 supporting cast, while carrying a Jordan esque burden for the Celtics.

When MJ was favorites he ever wet the bed, that's the point learn the difference. You could count on Jordan to never fail you like all the rest of these guys did a one point or another. Context kid.

He lost in 89-90, 94-95, it's not up to you to determine what others view as suitable help, and he DID come back and fall short to the Magic, no matter how you twist it. Also, in the future, watch your tongue when addressing me.

Also, the 95-96, 96-97 squads are among the most stacked squads (if not THE most) in NBA history. Check yourself.

[CavaliersFTW]

When he had just enough tools to justifiably win, he never lost.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/throwing-a-fit.gif
Cry and throw a tantrum all you want, but the bullshit you just typed is completely untrue and illogical. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[fpliii]

Cry and throw a tantrum all you want, but the bullshit you just typed is completely untrue and illogical. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

:applause:

[fpliii]

Except MJ wasn't favorites in either 1990 or 1995. Guy had only played 17 games that year. Magic were favorites coming out the conference. Shut your dumb Jordan hating ass up. He won as favorites in 92, 96, 97 and as underdog in 91, 93, and 98.

Not a Jordan hater, he's one of my favorite players ever and one of the best ever. Just don't make him out to be completely flawless and the GOAT in every regard. Appreciate the man for the legend he was brah, not the legend he wasn't and will never be.

:cheers:

[CavaliersFTW]

2 NCAA chips 1 Gold and 11 rings all in just a 14 year span. Now there's a champion resume worth gawking at :applause:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

2 NCAA chips 1 Gold and 11 rings all in just a 14 year span. Now there's a champion resume worth gawking at :applause:
:applause:

[Greg Oden 50]

where is leflop :roll:

[SamuraiSWISH]

:roll:
Not a Jordan hater, he's one of my favorite players ever and one of the best ever. Just don't make him out to be completely flawless and the GOAT in every regard. Appreciate the man for the legend he was brah, not the legend he wasn't and will never be.

:cheers:
I'm not making him into a legend he's not. Undefeated in the Finals, when he has the tools he never lost. Lol @ you clowns comparing him to Sam Jones. Like MJ played on championship capable teams from the get go. He was the only one who didn't crumble everyone failed him and weren't ready until 91 to win. Lol @ you acting like it was MJ's fault before 91.

[CavaliersFTW]

:roll:
I'm not making him into a legend he's not. Undefeated in the Finals, when he has the tools he never lost. Lol @ you clowns comparing him to Sam Jones. Like MJ played on championship capable teams from the get go. He was the only one who didn't crumble everyone failed him and weren't ready until 91 to win. Lol @ you acting like it was MJ's fault before 91.
Bill Russell did more than Michael Jordan did, with less. You see, he won championships immediately, with a roster that struggled before he got there. I'm talking both NCAA, and NBA. Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson etc etc etc all require a hell of a lot more excuses like your giving for MJ than Bill Russell. Bill Russell doesn't need anyone making up excuses. He is hands down the greatest champion in the history of team sports.

[fpliii]

:roll:
I'm not making him into a legend he's not. Undefeated in the Finals, when he has the tools he never lost. Lol @ you clowns comparing him to Sam Jones. Like MJ played on championship capable teams from the get go. He was the only one who didn't crumble everyone failed him and weren't ready until 91 to win. Lol @ you acting like it was MJ's fault before 91.

I didn't compare him to Sam Jones, just compared their championship resumes.

With regards to the bolded, keep telling yourself that, maybe you'll believe it some day.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I didn't compare him to Sam Jones, just compared their championship resumes.

With regards to the bolded, keep telling yourself that, maybe you'll believe it some day.
Oh really, MJ underperformed? Guy gave the Pistons their only challenge in 89, with under performing weak supporting cast backing him up. Pippen scored 13 ppg in the playoffs while MJ put up 35 ppg.

Keep being a bitter Laker fan, knowing the games best player never played in purple and gold.

You literally made it sound as if it's stupid when people mention Jordan's perfect record in the Finals.

Then went on to act like it was HIS failures as why they didn't win a championship or get to the finals when he didn't have the tools to legitimately do so. It's dumb argument. You and your Wilt loving butt buddy.

And that not getting to a finals should be taken into account for a players record in the finals when they got there. Idiotic.

[guy]

Cry and throw a tantrum all you want, but the bullshit you just typed is completely untrue and illogical. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

How is he wrong? I'm not saying the "6-0" argument should trump all either, but I don't see how he's wrong. I don't think there's been a series where there was a good argument that Jordan should've won and he ended up losing. Other then Russell, you can't say that about anyone else.

[fpliii]

Oh really, MJ underperformed? Guy gave the Pistons their only challenge in 89, with under performing weak supporting cast backing him up. Pippen scored 13 ppg in the playoffs while MJ put up 35 ppg.

Keep being a bitter Laker fan, knowing the games best player never played in purple and gold.

You literally made it sound as if it's stupid when people mention Jordan's perfect record in the Finals.

Then went on to act like it was HIS failures as why they didn't win a championship.

And that not getting to a finals should be taken into account for a players record in the finals when they got there. Idiotic.

1) Link to me saying that?

2) No, he didn't wear purple and gold. 6 of the top 12 or so did, so that's good enough for me. FWIW the best player didn't wear red either, he wore green.

3) It isn't stupid, but it's not terribly relevant. A loss is a loss, and it's not up to you to determine which losses are better. You don't always face the best team in the Finals (MJ played the GOAT team in the first round in 86), so it's foolish to keep pushing your agenda.

4) Never said it shouldn't, but regardless of how you feel, it's not up to you to determine whether or not MJ or anybody else had a suitable supporting cast to contend. Circumstances are HUGE, and excuses/delusions are for losers.

[fpliii]

How is he wrong? I'm not saying the "6-0" argument should trump all either, but I don't see how he's wrong. I don't think there's been a series where there was a good argument that Jordan should've won and he ended up losing. Other then Russell, you can't say that about anyone else.

That's why it's a catch-22. Either you receive complete credit for wins AND blame for losses, or it's a team win/loss. You can't pick and choose when it's convenient like Swish is doing here.

FWIW I've been taking the "anti" Jordan side in a few threads recently, this is probably the fourth or fifth in the last couple of days. I really hate doing this, since he's one of my favorite players and one of the best ever. But this type of cheap trolling/propagandizing is lame as hell (not speaking about you, but Swish, etc. trying to push his agenda on everyone else).

[andgar923]

That's why it's a catch-22. Either you receive complete credit for wins AND blame for losses, or it's a team win/loss. You can't pick and choose when it's convenient like Swish is doing here.

FWIW I've been taking the "anti" Jordan side in a few threads recently, this is probably the fourth or fifth in the last couple of days. I really hate doing this, since he's one of my favorite players and one of the best ever. But this type of cheap trolling/propagandizing is lame as hell (not speaking about you, but Swish, etc. trying to push his agenda on everyone else).

But MJ didn’t underperform.

He came to play and gave it his all, and regularly kicked ass. His teammates simply were’t up to par physically and specially mentally.

is it his fault they lost when he’d score 40 points on 50% fg, steals, blocks etc.etc.? yet his teammates shot under 50%, had turnovers were mental midgets that collapsed under pressure?

Even his opponents praised him and literally stated that he needed help. it was a common understanding that the Bulls as a ‘team’ weren’t ready yet. MJ was, his team wasn’t.

There is NO catch 22… it be what it is.

[fpliii]

But MJ didn’t underperform.

He came to play and gave it his all, and regularly kicked ass. His teammates simply were’t up to par physically and specially mentally.

is it his fault they lost when he’d score 40 points on 50% fg, steals, blocks etc.etc.? yet his teammates shot under 50%, had turnovers were mental midgets that collapsed under pressure?

Even his opponents praised him and literally stated that he needed help. it was a common understanding that the Bulls as a ‘team’ weren’t ready yet. MJ was, his team wasn’t.

There is NO catch 22… it be what it is.

Right, in your opinion. Hold him to the same standards to which you hold other greats (not saying they have to measure up, just be consistent) and you'll be just fine.

[CavaliersFTW]

But MJ didn’t underperform.

He came to play and gave it his all, and regularly kicked ass. His teammates simply were’t up to par physically and specially mentally.

is it his fault they lost when he’d score 40 points on 50% fg, steals, blocks etc.etc.? yet his teammates shot under 50%, had turnovers were mental midgets that collapsed under pressure?

Even his opponents praised him and literally stated that he needed help. it was a common understanding that the Bulls as a ‘team’ weren’t ready yet. MJ was, his team wasn’t.

There is NO catch 22… it be what it is.
And none of this has anything to do with pushing the flawed agenda that '6-0 in the Finals!!!' (and failing to even make the Finals every single other season of his career) should be treated as somehow better or more impressive than say, a player who is 6-1 or 7-1, or 8-1 or.... (wait for it) ...11-12

It is idiotic to believe that losing in the Finals = worse than not making it to the Finals at all. That is the BS Swish is pushing.

[fpliii]

Kid, explain to me what agenda I'm pushing? Your dumb ass came in with the admitted anti Jordan agenda. Then two actual knowledgable posters echoed my response to your dumb statement, with your idiotic GOAT hating agenda.

Don't play stupid, and pretend you don't have an agenda. You mean two posters echoing your agenda (convenient, huh?)? I'm done with you here, you're boring and predictable.

[andgar923]

Right, in your opinion. Hold him to the same standards to which you hold other greats (not saying they have to measure up, just be consistent) and you'll be just fine.

What are you even talking about?

I

[fpliii]

What are you even talking about?

I’m only addressing what I replied too.

Who are we comparing MJ to now?

I responded to Swish, so take it up with him. I guess in theory we're comparing MJ to whomever he and CavsFTW were discussing, but that's irrelevant as long as he's consistent.

I don't have an issue with you, but that guy trolls hard on here. He says some pretty outlandish shit.

[andgar923]

And none of this has anything to do with pushing the flawed agenda that '6-0 in the Finals!!!' (and failing to even make the Finals every single other season of his career) should be treated as somehow better or more impressive than say, a player who is 6-1 or 7-1, or 8-1 or.... (wait for it) ...11-12

It is idiotic to believe that losing in the Finals = worse than not making it to the Finals at all. That is the BS Swish is pushing.

You don't seem to grasp a very simple and basic premise, because you chose to. You’re smart enough to understand the ‘context’ in which we’re referring to.

MJ didn’t have a TEAM in place good enough to make it to the Finals.

But once he did, he never lost.

It was also MJ’s performances during those finals that make him better than the rest. His performances were historic, what every fan aspires to, what every NBA player aims for. He wasn’t just role player or a legend that had a minimal imprint on the game. He dictated the game, he WON game.

[CavaliersFTW]

You don't seem to grasp a very simple and basic premise, because you chose to. You’re smart enough to understand the ‘context’ in which we’re referring to.

MJ didn’t have a TEAM in place good enough to make it to the Finals.

But once he did, he never lost.

It was also MJ’s performances during those finals that make him better than the rest. His performances were historic, what every fan aspires to, what every NBA player aims for. He wasn’t just role player or a legend that had a minimal imprint on the game. He dictated the game, he WON game.
Your better than this andgar your siding with a troll and missing a point entirely. Perhaps it's because your an MJ fan too, but here we go:

Bill Russell didn't have a 'team in place to make it to the finals' his rookie season.
...But he made it anyways, ...and won.

Elgin Baylor didn't have a 'team in place to make it to the finals' his rookie season either, in fact the Lakers were in last place the season before.
...But he made it anyways. ...and lost.

Lebron didn't have a 'team in place to make it to the finals' in 2007.
...But he made it anyways. ...and lost.

The people who act like MJ was just on standby able to deflect all criticisms whilst waiting for a 'good team' before he unleashed himself on the finals are kidding themselves. Bad teams can make it to the finals when lead by a great player. Great players have brought bad teams to the finals before - and the bullshit philosophy of penalizing them for it, whilst simultaneously praising MJ for never being able to do it has got to stop.

MJ had opportunities to bring bad teams to the finals - win or lose who cares - and never did. That doesn't make him BETTER than the great players who DID bring bad teams to the finals but lost. Some of them never had the opportunities MJ had as far as having a dynasty-level core around them - yet they went farther then he did when they had less.

[LAZERUSS]

[QUOTE=andgar923]You don't seem to grasp a very simple and basic premise, because you chose to. You

[Young X]

Great players have brought bad teams to the finals - and the bullshit philosophy of penalizing them for it, and praising MJ for never beeing able to do it has got to stop.Were they facing 86 Celtics/89 Pistons caliber teams on their way to the finals?

[CavaliersFTW]

Were they facing 86 Celtic/89 Piston caliber teams on their way to the finals?
In the examples I listed, just the 11 ring Celtic Dynasty (Elgin's Lakers), or 4 ring Spurs Dynasty (Lebron's Cavs) so no big deal right? Or the 1 time Russell lost in a Finals - was to prime Bob Pettit's Hawks - and Russell himself was injured, and the Hawks are a 'Dynastic' (almost-was-a-dynasty) team that themselves went to the Finals 5 times in their heyday (losing to the Dynasty Bill Russell Celtics in 4 of their 5 total appearances).

[LAZERUSS]

Were they facing 86 Celtic/89 Piston caliber teams on their way to the finals like MJ?

Compare Wilt's rosters with Russell's in his first six seasons. He was outgunned by huge margins in terms of HOF teammates. And he nearly led two of them to upsets in game seven's, and in two other's, they gave Boston a ton of trouble.

Oh, and when Wilt was finally given a roster that was comparable to Russell's, and that was healthy, they just annihilated Russell and his Celtics.

Yet we have ignorant posters who label Chamberlain a "loser" because he "only" won two rings.

[kamil]

Where's that mental midget known as LeBron* on the list?

[LAZERUSS]

Where's that mental midget known as LeBron* on the list?

Yep, the two-time FMVP.

[CavaliersFTW]

You can use that argument in many cases. Also, the "greats" have had solid teammates who puked all over themselves in their biggest games, too.

In any case, those who rip a player for "losing" in the Finals are absolute idiots.
^ - he gets it.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Where's that mental midget known as LeBron* on the list?
Where the hell is Magic or Bird on the list? Different great players have different styles of play. Just because they're not on the list of highest ppg doesn't mean they aren't great.

[Greg Oden 50]

^ - he gets it.

wilt is a choker.............:oldlol:

[LAZERUSS]

wilt is a choker.............:oldlol:

This coming from what appears to be an Oden fan....

[Deuce Bigalow]

Ok. That's fine. But question still remains...Do you ever get tired of your "Wilt sucks" agenda? At what point does it become boring?
Not tired of it yet :oldlol: Why is posting facts considered a "Wilt sucks" agenda though?

[Deuce Bigalow]

You can use that argument in many cases. Also, the "greats" have had solid teammates who puked all over themselves in their biggest games, too.

In any case, those who rip a player for "losing" in the Finals are absolute idiots.
Tell me more about how West in the 1970 Finals "puked all over himself"

[andgar923]

Your better than this andgar your siding with a troll and missing a point entirely. Perhaps it's because your an MJ fan too, but here we go:

Bill Russell didn't have a 'team in place to make it to the finals' his rookie season.
...But he made it anyways, ...and won.

Elgin Baylor didn't have a 'team in place to make it to the finals' his rookie season either, in fact the Lakers were in last place the season before.
...But he made it anyways. ...and lost.

Lebron didn't have a 'team in place to make it to the finals' in 2007.
...But he made it anyways. ...and lost.

The people who act like MJ was just on standby able to deflect all criticisms whilst waiting for a 'good team' before he unleashed himself on the finals are kidding themselves. Bad teams can make it to the finals when lead by a great player. Great players have brought bad teams to the finals before - and the bullshit philosophy of penalizing them for it, whilst simultaneously praising MJ for never being able to do it has got to stop.

MJ had opportunities to bring bad teams to the finals - win or lose who cares - and never did. That doesn't make him BETTER than the great players who DID bring bad teams to the finals but lost. Some of them never had the opportunities MJ had as far as having a dynasty-level core around them - yet they went farther then he did when they had less.

That

[Young X]

In the examples I listed, just the 11 ring Celtic Dynasty (Elgin's Lakers), or 4 ring Spurs Dynasty (Lebron's Cavs) so no big deal right? Or the 1 time Russell lost in a Finals - was to prime Bob Pettit's Hawks - and Russell himself was injured, and the Hawks are a 'Dynastic' (almost-was-a-dynasty) team that themselves went to the Finals 5 times in their heyday (losing to the Dynasty Bill Russell Celtics in 4 of their 5 total appearances).Those teams weren't facing 86 Celtics type teams in the 1st round every year. If the 80's Bulls faced 40 win Wizards teams like the Cavs did, you don't think they'd win either?

None of the players you're mentioning would take those terrible Bulls teams past the Celtics/Pistons anyways so what's the point? Only reason they got further was because they faced weaker teams on their way to the finals.

[CavaliersFTW]

Those teams weren't facing 86 Celtics type teams in the 1st round every year. If the 80's Bulls faced 40 win Wizards teams like the Cavs did, you don't think they'd win either?

None of the players you're mentioning would take those terrible Bulls teams past the Celtics/Pistons anyways so what's the point? Only reason they got further was because they faced weaker teams on their way to the finals.
yeah i don't think you even comprehended my answer, because this reply makes no sense at all in response to my answer

[Deuce Bigalow]

Your better than this andgar your siding with a troll and missing a point entirely. Perhaps it's because your an MJ fan too, but here we go:

Bill Russell didn't have a 'team in place to make it to the finals' his rookie season.
...But he made it anyways, ...and won.

Elgin Baylor didn't have a 'team in place to make it to the finals' his rookie season either, in fact the Lakers were in last place the season before.
...But he made it anyways. ...and lost.

Lebron didn't have a 'team in place to make it to the finals' in 2007.
...But he made it anyways. ...and lost.

The people who act like MJ was just on standby able to deflect all criticisms whilst waiting for a 'good team' before he unleashed himself on the finals are kidding themselves. Bad teams can make it to the finals when lead by a great player. Great players have brought bad teams to the finals before - and the bullshit philosophy of penalizing them for it, whilst simultaneously praising MJ for never being able to do it has got to stop.

MJ had opportunities to bring bad teams to the finals - win or lose who cares - and never did. That doesn't make him BETTER than the great players who DID bring bad teams to the finals but lost. Some of them never had the opportunities MJ had as far as having a dynasty-level core around them - yet they went farther then he did when they had less.
We gonna act like Bill didn't have the league MVP his rookie year?

We also gonna act like Baylor's team didn't go 33-39?

[CavaliersFTW]

That’s great, not knocking them.

It’s also bullshit to say that Bron didn’t have a team. Also Bron lost because HE didn’t perform well, something you’re missing.

MJ performed…. his team didn’t, that means they weren’t ready and that’s due to a number of reasons:

They were young
Had the wrong coach/system in place

But once those players matured a bit
Once the proper system was in place

They (the TEAM) began to perform and win. MJ was always the constant factor he always performed.

Hell… even when they were winning MJ had to bail them out endlessly, but they were better players than they were years before.

I don’t comment on Baylor or Russell cause I don’t know much about their situation. But Bron stunk up.

if Bron had performed, people wouldn’t be clowning him and they would’ve been respecting his play and will. But as well all know, that’s not what happened… HE failed.
Shit, I love criticizing Lebron I'm not going to correct you there. So let's exclude him from those examples - let's swap him with Iverson on the Sixers since Iverson actually played great in the Finals. Great players in the past have brought terrible teams to the Finals - played their ****ing asses off, and lost. Not every player has the same franchise-dynasty-luck-and-opportunity that MJ had. Some players play for teams that just can't ever seem to build properly or get over the hump.

What Samuraipuss was doing was suggesting that what makes MJ 'better' than everyone else was that 'once he was in the finals, he never lost' as if it was some innate gift he had to never lose a Finals series. < --- terrible terrible logic.

Because as I said, great players can get to the finals with mediocre and even flat out terrible casts, and sometimes they can win but usually they will lose no matter how good they play in those situations.

[Young X]

yeah i don't think you even comprehended my answer, because this reply makes no sense at all in response to my answer

I'm responding to this:
MJ had opportunities to bring bad teams to the finals - win or lose who cares - and never did. That doesn't make him BETTER than the great players who DID bring bad teams to the finals but lost. Some of them never had the opportunities MJ had as far as having a dynasty-level core around them - yet they went farther then he did when they had less.No MJ did not have the same opportunities to bring bad teams to the finals, he was facing legendary, historically dominant teams on his way to the finals as opposed to them facing weaker competition in comparison.

You're bringing up other players being able to bring bad teams to the finals, but when did they have to face 86/87 Celtics caliber teams on their way to the finals? like MJ did? They weren't in comparable situations.

[andgar923]

Shit, I love criticizing Lebron I'm not going to correct you there. So let's exclude him from those examples - let's swap him with Iverson on the Sixers since Iverson actually played great in the Finals. Great players in the past have brought terrible teams to the Finals - played their ****ing asses off, and lost. Not every player has the same franchise-dynasty-luck-and-opportunity that MJ had. Some players play for teams that just can't ever seem to build properly or get over the hump.

What Samuraipuss was doing was suggesting that what makes MJ 'better' than everyone else was that 'once he was in the finals, he never lost' as if it was some innate gift he had to never lose a Finals series. < --- terrible terrible logic.

Because as I said, great players can get to the finals with mediocre and even flat out terrible casts, and sometimes they can win but usually they will lose no matter how good they play in those situations.

Give examples of great players that lost in the Finals because of their teams and not because of their play.

Samurai

[kamil]

Where the hell is Magic or Bird on the list? Different great players have different styles of play. Just because they're not on the list of highest ppg doesn't mean they aren't great.

Magic and Bird aren't obsessed over to the point where they're supposed to be greater than MJ.

[LAZERUSS]

Tell me more about how West in the 1970 Finals "puked all over himself"

Take a look at the first half of game seven of that Finals on YouTube, and get back to me.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Take a look at the first half of game seven of that Finals on YouTube, and get back to me.
There was some center who shot 1-8 from the line in that first half. I forgot what his name was though

[LAZERUSS]

There was some center who shot 1-8 from the line in that first half. I forgot what his name was though

Yeah...the same Wilt, only four months removed from major knee surgery, and who was the only player to shoot 50% from the field in that first half, while grabbing 12 rebounds, and holding Reed to virtually nothing. Oh, and while West was stripped several times in the first half by Frazier, he was also tasked with defending Walt. The same Frazier who would finish with 36 points.

West had some memorable "choke" jobs in his career, and that was certainly one of them.

[KOBE143]

This just proves Wilt is overrated.. He was known for his offense but never avg over 30ppg in the finals.. :facepalm Wilt is really the definition of choker.. Most overrated top ten player of all time and its not even close.. :bowdown:

[LAZERUSS]

This just proves Wilt is overrated.. He was known for his offense but never avg over 30ppg in the finals.. :facepalm Wilt is really the definition of choker.. Most overrated top ten player of all time and its not even close.. :bowdown:

Yeah... the Chamberlain who had a 29-28 .517 Finals, all while holding Russell to a 11-25 .386 series. He also had a 45-27 20-27 "must-win" in a Finals (all while playing on one leg.) Oh, and Chamberlain has the only 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA history (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and a .625 FG%.)

Of course, he would have won a unanimous FMVP in '67 had the award existed, and he DID win it age 35 in '72 (with a 19-23 .600 Finals.)

Oh, BTW, Wilt shot .500, .517, .525, .560 (against Thurmond no less...go head and check out KAJ's playoff series against Nate), .600, and .625 from the field in those six Finals. And his opposing centers shot .500, .493, .483, .398, .386, and .343 in them.

Not to mention the fact that Wilt slaughtered his opposing centers on the glass in EVERY Finals series in which he played.

BTW, care to post Kobe's FG%'s in his Finals?

[KOBE143]

BTW, care to post Kobe's FG%'s in his Finals?
Kobe shoot 50% in 2002.. :confusedshrug:

Btw, the 00s defense is far better than the 60s weak era.. Kobe would avg over 50ppg in the finals in that weak era..

[LAZERUSS]

Kobe shoot 50% in 2002.. :confusedshrug:

Btw, the 00s defense is far better than the 60s weak era.. Kobe would avg over 50ppg in the finals in that weak era..

Hmmm...KAJ had seasons of .539, .529, .518, and .513 in the early 70's. And facing two centers from the 60's, in his five playoff series against them, he shot .486, .481, .457, .428, and .405.

Kobe had Finals in which he shot .387. And I believe his career Finals FG% is in the low 40% range.

[Greg Oden 50]

wilt plays with baylor,west and still choke against kaj's bucks:roll:

[LAZERUSS]

wilt plays with baylor,west and still choke against kaj's bucks:roll:

You better look up your NBA history my friend. West and Baylor did not play a game in that series. And the next year, Baylor was gone, when Chamberlain led his Lakers to a 4-2 series win over KAJ's defending champion Bucks.

[CavaliersFTW]

You better look up your NBA history my friend. West and Baylor did not play a game in that series. And the next year, Baylor was gone, when Chamberlain led his Lakers to a 4-2 series win over KAJ's defending champion Bucks.
Wilt outplayed Jabbar that series too - got a standing ovation from the Milwaukee crowd

[Deuce Bigalow]

wilt plays with baylor,west and still choke against kaj's bucks:roll:
The big chokes are that Wilt had prime West averaging 37.9 ppg and 31.2 ppg in the '69 and '70 finals and he still lost. Jlauber will now blame poor old Baylor in '69 loss and West himself for the '70 loss

[LAZERUSS]

Chamberlain was, by far, the best player on the floor in the '60, '61, '62, '64, '65, '66, '67, and '68 playoff series in which he played. By far. He was also arguably the best player in his '71 (against a peak KAJ, too), and '72 (and definitely in the Finals) post-seasons. Guess he should be awarded at least ten rings, then.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Chamberlain was, by far, the best player on the floor in the '60, '61, '62, '64, '65, '66, '67, and '68 playoff series in which he played. By far. He was also arguably the best player in his '71 (against a peak KAJ, too), and '72 (and definitely in the Finals) post-seasons. Guess he should be awarded at least ten rings, then.
Even though he went ringless in all of them except one? Yeah Bill Russell would have something to say about that.

[Deuce Bigalow]

All 3 circle jerking Wilt fans have to have each other's back, because deep down they know it's pathetic someone so talented relative to his era only provided 2 championships.

And it wasn't always strictly because his teammates were weaker than the ridiculously stacked Russell - Cousy Celtics. It's because he was a natural loser within the team sport concept.

A terrible, selfish player, who provided little to no leadership or will to win. Wilt was always side tracked with other things.
:applause:

[Legends66NBA7]

Why do people continually make the mistake of mixing team accomplishment/failures with individual performances ?

Rings and being undefeated/losing record in the finals having nothing to do with players in question. Show me the individual performances, guage them that way, and leave the other stuff out of it.

[CavaliersFTW]

Why do people continually make the mistake of mixing team accomplishment/failures with individual performances ?

Rings and being undefeated/losing record in the finals having nothing to do with players in question. Show me the individual performances, guage them that way, and leave the other stuff out of it.
Exactly what I've been saying :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Psileas]

Why do people continually make the mistake of mixing team accomplishment/failures with individual performances ?

Rings and being undefeated/losing record in the finals having nothing to do with players in question. Show me the individual performances, guage them that way, and leave the other stuff out of it.

:applause:

[DatAsh]

Ok. That's fine. But question still remains...Do you ever get tired of your "Wilt sucks" agenda? At what point does it become boring?

I don't think he'd do it if Jlauber didn't exist.

[Legends66NBA7]

Exactly what I've been saying :applause: :applause: :applause:

Well, I should also mention that guys who do perform at a high level or low level can still win titles, but also vice versa.

Jerry West in many of his finals over performed, but in his lone ring under performed. Obviously, his 72 run doesn't mean much compared to his other one's in terms of an individual player even though he finally won a ring.

In case for LeBron James, he's had to stellar performances in his last 2 finals, but he didn't play up to his level in 07 and 11. Doesn't take away that he was still great for the most part, especially 07.

In terms of Michael Jordan, you can only really say he under performed in 1 of his Finals apparences, while he is more or less brilliant in his other ones. It doesn't take away anything that he didn't make it before pre-91... how many series did he play bad in before that ?

Not much to say about Bill Russell. The lone Finals the Celtics lost, he was injured. Hard to even blame him there. Again, how many Finals did he perform badly ?

That's how I gauge things. Even if the teams are afterthoughts or contenders, what you perform should be what is taken in context. I also don't think it takes away from losing either.

[Psileas]

I don't think he'd do it if Jlauber didn't exist.

Haters have been existing regardless of Jlauber. Had he and some others not been present, people would still have been using the "6'5 centers" excuses.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Wilt, the man who averaged 50 ppg, never scores 30 ppg in the playoffs. Brilliant.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Wilt, the man who averaged 50 ppg, never scores 30 ppg in the playoffs. Brilliant.


:facepalm :facepalm

[JimmyMcAdocious]

Meh, there's haters for everything on ISH. Wilt, LeBron, Rose, Dwight, Kobe, Jordan, CP3, every single era, every single team, every single coach, every single GM (not named Jerry West).. I see random haters for the most random players. Like 5.9 ppg, bench players get brought up and then one or two posters kill that one guy. Players who wear headbands, players who wear Nike, race, eye vision, left handed players...

Not saying it's right or wrong. Just the way this forum is. Although if one bothers you, then all should probably bother you. The needlessly obsession with putting basketball related things down, not saying you can't dislike a player. Since I'm sure someone interpreted that one sentence that way.

Hell, I HATE Carlos Boozer. With all my passion. Everything about him irks me.

[Psileas]

Wilt, the man who averaged 50 ppg, never scores 30 ppg in the playoffs. Brilliant.

I love the precision and accuracy of these posts...

[knicksman]

grades are for the insecure ones same with stats. While the best dont need it. Thats why the steve jobs dont need grades to prove themselves because they have the confidence to deliver result. Its the same with stats. Only losers care about it but come playoffs time, they get exposed.

[DatAsh]

Haters have been existing regardless of Jlauber. Had he and some others not been present, people would still have been using the "6'5 centers" excuses.

I agree, I just think this one poster in particular gets his joys from rustling JLauber's jimmies.