I will not even discuss or link to the moronical ESPN's NBA front page

[demons2005]

How sad a reflection on todays journalism and an utter lack of understanding of NBA basketball. That is all I have to say about this issue and I have written a letter (real snail mail) to express my frustration with their lack of journalistic integrity.

What's next? "IS ERIC GORDON > MJ" with 5 idiot "journalists" basically saying "most people won't think so but he really is"

[RoundMoundOfReb]

For those wondering:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10010160/nba-how-chris-paul-surpassing-magic-johnson-best-point-guard-ever

[moe94]

Are you serious? You need to calm down. Paul has legit claim to being the greatest traditional PG of all time. Comparing the idea that Paul might be better than Magic to Gordon and Jordan is so retarded that I'm actually mad.

[branslowski]

Wats wrong? I thought everyone liked the advanced stat nerd Era?:lol

Players don't even have to win nemore, just rack up them PER, WS, stats, n u will be called the GOAT.:lol

[gts]

Could CP3 surpass Magic Johnson as the No. 1 point guard of all time?


Arnovitz: His numbers already surpass Magic's at this juncture of their respective careers. The answer to this question hinges upon the value you place in hardware when evaluating careers.

Gutierrez: No, unless Paul brings three or four championships to Los Angeles. Among the many remarkable accomplishments in Magic's career, his shooting percentage stands out to me. Without much range, Magic didn't shoot lower than 52 percent in a season until his ninth year in the league. And with his career cut short because of his HIV status at 31 years old, he missed an opportunity to pile on at least three more years of elite-level play.

Shelburne: When he was traded here in 2011, I had this very thought. Maybe it's because Los Angeles has been so starved for a charismatic leading man at the point guard position ever since Magic retired. Maybe it's because that first year when he and Blake Griffin founded Lob City reminded a lot of people of the Showtime Era. But again, we come back to the issue of championships. Magic's got a whole hand full of rings. CP3 is still searching for his first.

Strauss: No, I can't go that far. Shorter point guards only have so many years, and sadly, Chris Paul will be past his prime fairly soon. He won't have time to challenge Magic's incredible playoff success. Also, Magic's size allowed for a versatility that transcended the point guard position.

Stein: There's a five-ringed gap between them now, and there is no way that can be overlooked. The conversation about the Big O, despite everything I just said in his favor, isn't complete until we mention that he didn't win his one and only ring in the NBA until he hooked up with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in Milwaukee in his early 30s. So let's make sure we don't forget to mention the fact that CP3 has never had the supporting cast to be in the championship conversation until this season to keep this fair ... but let's slow down, too. Magic has set the bar pret-tay, pret-tay high.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/5-on-5-131121/chris-paul-greatest-point-guard-ever

[christian1923]

Chris Paul isn't even better than Tony Parker let alone magic johnson

[RoundMoundOfReb]

:lol He's much better than Tony Parker

[sportjames23]

For those wondering:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10010160/nba-how-chris-paul-surpassing-magic-johnson-best-point-guard-ever


Oh for fvck's sake. Seriously, ESPN?

[Uncle Drew]

Are you serious? You need to calm down. Paul has legit claim to being the greatest traditional PG of all time.
What.....

[BoutPractice]

Ridiculous. Magic Johnson was to offense what Bill Russell was to defense... it's not just dumb luck he's one of the greatest winners of all time. You put him on the court and suddenly everything clicks for your team offensively.

[christian1923]

:lol He's much better than Tony Parker
Lol did you see Tony last year in the games that actually matter? no body at PG can do what he was doing out there. multiple 30 point games. a 37 point game. an 18 assists game. a game winner. pleaseee:no:

[#number6ix#]

God damn espn

[RoundMoundOfReb]

You mean the NBA finals where he put up 15/6 on 41% and 10/4 in game 7 on 25%? If cp3 does that he gets KILLED

[moe94]

Lol did you see Tony last year in the games that actually matter? no body at PG can do what he was doing out there. multiple 30 point games. a 37 point game. an 18 assists game. a game winner. pleaseee:no:
Paul's playoff numbers shit on Parker, though.

[Fiasco]

hahahaha how did I know this was going to be about CP3

[christian1923]

You mean the NBA finals where he put up 15/6 on 41% and 10/4 in game 7 on 25%? If cp3 does that he gets KILLED
He was obviously injured :coleman:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Okay even if you ignore that series. Chris paul has flat out played better in the playoffs.

[Sarcastic]

CP3 is not even better than Isiah Thomas, let alone Magic Johnson.

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

Wats wrong? I thought everyone liked the advanced stat nerd Era?:lol

Players don't even have to win nemore, just rack up them PER, WS, stats, n u will be called the GOAT.:lol
It's the battle of the stat nerd fgts here. :oldlol:

Who's better?
- the PG w/ the accolade stats (5 rings, 3 FMVP, 3 MVP)
or
- the PG w/ the analytics stats (#1 PER of PGs all-time and #4 WS all-time)

:eek: :hammerhead:

[christian1923]

Okay even if you ignore that series. Chris paul has flat out played better in the playoffs.
Im sure his numbers look better seeing that Chris Paul has played about 30-40 playoffs games and tony has probably played about 150.

I guess i just like a scoring point gaurd who can pass better than a passing point guard who can score. I think tony gives his teams a better chance to win a big game.

[gts]

Here's the writers twitter feed if you want to put him on blast

https://twitter.com/tomhaberstroh

[Uncle Drew]

Okay even if you ignore that series. Chris paul has flat out played better in the playoffs.
So that is why Paul has only made it out of the first round twice. It's not about stats, it's about winning.

[Young X]

From a regular season/playoffs production standpoint he has an argument. That's it though, he's not even close to Magic in terms of rings/team success.

[DMAVS41]

I would imagine that the answer ESPN came to was a resounding no.

But why does Paul get so much hate? He's awesome. I'd take him over Stockton and Payton for sure. Would take him over Jason Kidd as well.

Like, how many pg's in history are actually better than Chris Paul? He's definitely on the short list of best ever after Magic.

[moe94]

So that is why Paul has only made it out of the first round twice. It's not about stats, it's about winning.
Keep using team accomplishments to evaluate and compare individual players. That's not irrational at all.

[Uncle Drew]

Keep using team accomplishments to evaluate and compare individual players. That's not irrational at all.
Alright then, individual stuff.

Finals MVP 1 > 0

[Jameerthefear]

Magic>>> Paul

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Comparing Paul to Magic Johnson is laughable. This is his 9th year and he's accomplished f**k all.

Paul is a talented player who will fill a stat sheet nicely but lets not get carried away.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Keep using team accomplishments to evaluate and compare individual players. That's not irrational at all.

That's what s point guard is supposed to do. Lead a team.

[CJ Mustard]

I would imagine that the answer ESPN came to was a resounding no.

But why does Paul get so much hate? He's awesome. I'd take him over Stockton and Payton for sure. Would take him over Jason Kidd as well.

Like, how many pg's in history are actually better than Chris Paul? He's definitely on the short list of best ever after Magic.
He's never been out of the 2nd round, and he's had good enough supporting casts to get to the WCF/Finals too. No way he's as good as Kidd, Stockton or Payton.

[magnax1]

He's a consistent top 5 player, but on an all time scale I wouldn't compare him to Magic.

[D-Wade316]

He's never been out of the 2nd round, and he's had good enough supporting casts to get to the WCF/Finals too. No way he's as good as Kidd, Stockton or Payton.
How is he in no way as good as Kidd, Stockton, or Payton?

I'd say he's flat out better than those 3. His competition is Nash and Oscar for best PGs after Magic.

[steve]

Here's an interesting thought exercise for people: there have been points in Magic's career where he wasn't the best player on his team (for at least 2 titles). This has never in anyway been true for Paul. How do people reconcile this when using titles as an argument? Also, in one of the articles referenced here, at this point in Magic's career, he had gained one MVP. At what point are people allowed to discuss actual production and leave accomplishments that require significant help from other players at the door when comparing two players?

[wakencdukest]

Magic even without 5 rings>Chris Paul.

[Jasi]

Is he even better than Clyde? Nash? Thomas?

[D-Wade316]

Is he even better than Clyde? Nash? Thomas?
Clyde and Thomas? Absolutely. Nash? Debatable.

[Deuce Bigalow]

You mean the NBA finals where he put up 15/6 on 41% and 10/4 in game 7 on 25%? If cp3 does that he gets KILLED
What?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

What?
talking about tony parker

[Young X]

He's never been out of the 2nd round, and he's had good enough supporting casts to get to the WCF/Finals too. No way he's as good as Kidd, Stockton or Payton.No he didn't. You can't just look at his teams without looking at his competition. How the fukk were the 12 Clippers supposed to beat the 62 win Spurs? How were the 11 Hornets supposed to beat the 58 win defending champ Lakers?

Chris Paul's best support in the playoffs has been David West, Eric Bledsoe, Carl Landry, injured Blake Griffin and he's played for 2 of the worst franchises in NBA history.

How many guards in league history have better playoff numbers than CP?

[Sarcastic]

Clyde and Thomas? Absolutely. Nash? Debatable.

Isiah Thomas' 4x 20/10 consecutive seasons shits on anything Paul has done.

[D-Wade316]

Isiah Thomas' 4x 20/10 consecutive seasons shits on anything Paul has done.
Pace

[Scholar]

This is just beyond face-palm worthy..

:facepalm anyway.

CP3 is a great player, but we're talking about Magic Johnson, Mr. Top 10 All-Time. If CP3 is greater than Magic, it means he's already cracked the top 5 list. You know what that means? Don't worry, little grasshoppers, I'll tell you. I don't want you hopping away confused.
That f*cking means CP3 > everyone who is < Magic. Think about that for a second. I don't care where you list Magic in your top 10 list as long as you recognize Magic is top 10. Assuming Magic is at least #5, CP3 would then be #4 at minimum, which is not the case.

Again, Chris Paul is great and all, but Magic is greater, and it's likely bound to remain that way. ESPN should be ashamed of themselves for even making such an atrocious, absurd assertion.

[SamuraiSWISH]

You mean the NBA finals where he put up 15/6 on 41% and 10/4 in game 7 on 25%? If cp3 does that he gets KILLED
Tragic Johnson doe

[Sarcastic]

Pace

Hand checking.

Master flopper.

[TheReal Kendall]

How is he in no way as good as Kidd, Stockton, or Payton?

I'd say he's flat out better than those 3. His competition is Nash and Oscar for best PGs after Magic.

:biggums:

He's not better than Stockton or Payton.

Did you watch those guys play?

[D-Wade316]

Tragic Johnson doe
5 rings doe

[Scholar]

You mean the NBA finals where he put up 15/6 on 41% and 10/4 in game 7 on 25%? If cp3 does that he gets KILLED

CP3 actually has to make the Finals first if anyone wants to kill him on poor Finals performances.

At least Tony Parker has the Finals stats. Chris Paul's NBA Finals stats are N/A.

[SamuraiSWISH]

5 rings doe
Not disagreeing doe

[RoundMoundOfReb]

CP3 actually has to make the Finals first if anyone wants to kill him on poor Finals performances.

At least Magic has the Finals stats. Chris Paul's NBA Finals stats are N/A.
I wasn't even talking about Magic. Magic > CP3. Not even a discussion. I was responding to the guy who said Tony Parker was better because he "showed up when it counts",.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

No he didn't. You can't just look at his teams without looking at his competition. How the fukk were the 12 Clippers supposed to beat the 62 win Spurs? How were the 11 Hornets supposed to beat the 58 win defending champ Lakers?

Chris Paul's best support in the playoffs has been David West, Eric Bledsoe, Carl Landry, injured Blake Griffin and he's played for 2 of the worst franchises in NBA history.

How many guards in league history have better playoff numbers than CP?


It's a results driven world we live in. Nobody gives a shit about excuses. You either win or you don't and the players that don't are never regarded as highly as the ones who do. I'm sorry to all the stat geeks in the world but that just the way it is.

Speaking of stats, here are Magic Johnson's career averages.

FG .52%
PPG 19.5
APG 11.2
RPG 7.2
SPG 1.9

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Forget about the Magic/CP comparisons right now.

Why don't you rank Tony Parker above Oscar Robertson?


I do rank Parker higher than Oscar. Oscar maybe a "better" in some ways but I'd rather have Parker. A guy who has proven time and time again that he can get it done in crunch time. That is what I value. How a guy performs when the pressure is on. There are a lot of great players during the regular season. Only a handful have been able to rise to the occasion and be a dominant force when everything is on the line. Most players aren't cut out for that.

Also, In the game of basketball there are only 5 players on the court from a given team at one time. As such, each player has a very big impact on whether the team wins or loses. If you are a mega talented player but your team underachieves, that reflects poorly on you in my eyes.

[moe94]

Also, In the game of basketball there are only 5 players on the court from a given team at one time. As such, each player has a very big impact on whether the team wins or loses. If you are a mega talented player but your team underachieves, that reflects poorly on you in my eyes.

So, you have zero respect for what KG did in Minnesota? The accepted fact that he had no help during his tenure in Minni reflects badly on KG and not his management? Wonderful.

[Miss Bella]

Awesome job of not discussing and indirectly linking to it:applause:

[dynasty1978]

12 seasons*
9 NBA Finals
5 Rings
3 X League MVP
3 X Finals MVP


Yeah, CP3 isn't sniffing the above resume. Further, stat nerds at ESPN just don't understand how much more of an impact Magic had on the game than Paul.

Magic was simply masterful on the break, in the half court, in the post and breaking defenses down from the perimeter.

*excludes the mini comeback in the mid 90s.

[wakencdukest]

"After converting an "and one" late in the fourth quarter against the Minnesota Timberwolves on Wednesday night, Chris Paul surpassed Magic Johnson on a dusty page in the record books. With 20 points and 11 assists, Paul registered a double-double for the 12th straight game to start the season, breaking Johnson's record, set in 1990-91."



I find it funny that these stat whore idiots at ESPN bringing up double doubles like that shit means anything. How about bringing up triple doubles you dickheads.

[longtime lurker]

12 seasons*
9 NBA Finals
5 Rings
3 X League MVP
3 X Finals MVP


Yeah, CP3 isn't sniffing the above resume. Further, stat nerds at ESPN just don't understand how much more of an impact Magic had on the game than Paul.

Magic was simply masterful on the break, in the half court, in the post and breaking defenses down from the perimeter.

*excludes the mini comeback in the mid 90s.

But you see stats.......

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Also, In the game of basketball there are only 5 players on the court from a given team at one time. As such, each player has a very big impact on whether the team wins or loses. If you are a mega talented player but your team underachieves, that reflects poorly on you in my eyes.
I'm sure you're very hard on Kobe for only leading his team to the 8th seed in his prime, right?

What was the difference between Kobe in 06 and 08? Was Kobe that much better? NO. He just got a competent supporting cast that's all.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

BTW PER overrates CP3 and underrates Magic pretty much because of the turnovers.

[Miss Bella]

BTW PER overrates CP3 and underrates Magic pretty much because of the turnovers.

More to do with pace.

[coin24]

Only on ESPN is never making it past the second round >> 5 rings:lol :facepalm

[G-train]

people still comparing players with titles..... smh
Now I think Magic > Paul but... he refused to play anywhere but LA with Kareem.
The team and the organisation was stacked.
Chris Paul was drafted to the Hornets.
Paul has many advantages playing in the era, but there are benefits to other eras too.

Anyway the whole point is that people need to come to the boring realization that you cant compare eras.

[russwest0]

ESPN sucks at sports coverage.

What else is new.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

More to do with pace.
That as well but turnovers really kill your per.

[Quizno]

to be fair though, if you put chris paul on those lakers teams, they're winning plenty of championships. those teams were ridiculously stacked

[Scholar]

I wasn't even talking about Magic. Magic > CP3. Not even a discussion. I was responding to the guy who said Tony Parker was better because he "showed up when it counts",.

My bad. If you check my post, I edited it when I realized you were referring to TP. I thought I did it quickly, but you quoted me before I did.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

CP3 actually has to make the Finals first if anyone wants to kill him on poor Finals performances.

At least Tony Parker has the Finals stats. Chris Paul's NBA Finals stats are N/A.
Mario Chalmers has finals stats too, doesn't make him better than cp3. Parker wasn't the best player on his team on either of his finals trips. CP3 has been the best player (usually by FAR) on his team for his entire career.

[gts]

people still comparing players with titles..... smh


It's more than valid. This isn't baseball or football where a player sits helpless on the sidelines for 50% of the game totally dependent on his teammates performance to get a win.

Basketball one player can have a dramatic effect on the game on both ends of the floor, can completely take over a game and dictate the outcome.
Yes you have to have quality teammates but it's still more than fair to compare players who have reached the summit to those that fail time and again.

One ring vs none meh you can dismiss that but 3,4,5 rings across a span of time with multiple casts you have to recognize that players ability to lead a team to the title...

Same with players that fail time and time again across a span of time with multiple casts, sooner or latter you have to admit they might not be all they're advertised to be

[BlackVVaves]

Arnovitz: His numbers already surpass Magic's at this juncture of their respective careers. The answer to this question hinges upon the value you place in hardware when evaluating careers.

Yeah. Let's question placing value on 5 championships compared to 0. 3 FMVP compared to 0. 3 MVPs compared to 0.

ESPN is a clutter of idiots. You'd think their employees encompassed members of the ISH community.

[G-train]

It's more than valid. This isn't baseball or football where a player sits helpless on the sidelines for 50% of the game totally dependent on his teammates performance to get a win.

Basketball one player can have a dramatic effect on the game on both ends of the floor, can completely take over a game and dictate the outcome.
Yes you have to have quality teammates but it's still more than fair to compare players who have reached the summit to those that fail time and again.

One ring vs none meh you can dismiss that but 3,4,5 rings across a span of time with multiple casts you have to recognize that players ability to lead a team to the title...

Same with players that fail time and time again across a span of time with multiple casts, sooner or latter you have to admit they might not be all they're advertised to be

It's not valid when a player refuses to sign with the Bulls if they win the coin toss, but fortunately for him the Lakers win it.
He then plays with Kareem, Worthy, various others great players, in a large market, with the best coaches, heaps of cash to spend on whatever, etc, etc.

Then Paul gets drafted by the Hornets, plays with David West.

You can't say 'well talk to me when such and such has 5 titles'.

Well talk to me when Chris Paul plays with Shaq and 3 other great players, coached by Pat Riley for 10 years.

It's an absurd notion to compare those situations.

[SpecialQue]

Let's cut the bullshit...has anything on CP3's resume matched Magic's rookie season? Let's see him close out a game six with an injured star player, put up 42 points, 15 rebounds, 7 assists, and 3 steals, and win FMVP.

[chazzy]

Never go full Haberstroh

[TheMarkMadsen]

to be fair though, if you put chris paul on those lakers teams, they're winning plenty of championships. those teams were ridiculously stacked

Yeah Chris Paul would kill it at center!

[BlackVVaves]

It's not valid when a player refuses to sign with the Bulls if they win the coin toss, but fortunately for him the Lakers win it.
He then plays with Kareem, Worthy, various others great players, in a large market, with the best coaches, heaps of cash to spend on whatever, etc, etc.

Then Paul gets drafted by the Hornets, plays with David West.

You can't say 'well talk to me when such and such has 5 titles'.

Well talk to me when Chris Paul plays with Shaq and 3 other great players, coached by Pat Riley.

It's an absurd notion to compare those situations.

What did Kareem win in LA before Magic was drafted?

Furthermore, every player and coach that spent any time as a Laker during the 80s....the decade that Magic along with Bird TRANSCENDED THE NBA....has said for the last 3 decades that Magic WAS Showtime. He made that team go, he was the undisputed engine. As productive as his teammates were, his elite play provided the platform for them to put up big numbers, similar to what Nash did in recent memory in Phoenix.

To pretend that Magic was a byproduct of the players he played with, instead of submitting to the fact, corroborated by his own teammates, that the Lakers' production on the offensive end was by and large a byproduct of Magic's surreal play, is what's truly absurd.

CP3 is a great point guard. But he's not Magic. That is to say, he isn't the greatest point guard to play the game.

[BlackVVaves]

Let's cut the bullshit...has anything on CP3's resume matched Magic's rookie season? Let's see him close out a game six with an injured star player, put up 42 points, 15 rebounds, 7 assists, and 3 steals, and win FMVP.

This.

[G-train]

What did Kareem win in LA before Magic was drafted?

Furthermore, every player and coach that spent any time as a Laker during the 80s....the decade that Magic along with Bird TRANSCENDED THE NBA....has said for the last 3 decades that Magic WAS Showtime. He made that team go, he was the undisputed engine. As productive as his teammates were, his elite play provided the platform for them to put up big numbers, similar to what Nash did in recent memory in Phoenix.

To pretend that Magic was a byproduct of the players he played with, instead of submitting to the fact, corroborated by his own teammates, that the Lakers' production on the offensive end was by and large a byproduct of Magic's surreal play, is what's truly absurd.

CP3 is a great point guard. But he's not Magic. That is to say, he isn't the greatest point guard to play the game.

Learn to comprehend. Your post has nothing to do with what I said.

I have watched Magic play. I know how good he is and that he is a better player than Paul.

I am simply pointing out that people saying '5 championships!!11' aren't looking at the big picture.

[G-train]

Let's cut the bullshit...has anything on CP3's resume matched Magic's rookie season? Let's see him close out a game six with an injured star player, put up 42 points, 15 rebounds, 7 assists, and 3 steals, and win FMVP.

Well Paul has played some AMAZING games with comparable lines. But he isn't 6'9 so he won't play centre for a game (Magic took the tip, but if you watch the game he didn't really play centre).
And Paul didn't play in the finals when he was a rookie, cos he didnt have MVP Kareem and a great team around him. So how could he do that?
Maybe he could win FMVP in that situation? Maybe not.
Who knows?
It's illogical to bring that up in a comparison.

[chocolatethunder]

This is just an example of shocking headlines in order to generate interest in an era of basketball being heavily broadcast and covered by their network that is simply not as good as years past. Anyone who has seen both of them play would never make that comparison. Paul isn't anywhere near his level or Stockton's level or Isaiah's level and it has nothing to do with championships. Paul just isn't as good as them. He's about on the level of Payton but I think that Payton was better. This really is a joke.

[BlackVVaves]

Learn to comprehend. Your post has nothing to do with what I said.

I have watched Magic play. I know how good he is and that he is a better player than Paul.

I am simply pointing out that people saying '5 championships!!11' aren't looking at the big picture.

Learn to conjure a singular, cohesive thought. Not one that bounces from wall to wall. You stated that Magic played with great players, for a great coach, and since CP3 in comparison had not, Magic's championships should not be weighted as heavily when debating between the two.

To which I combatted, Magic has everything to do with those players production as players, with the exception of Kareem, in my opinion. I also asked you what did Kareem accomplish in LA before Magic got there, which you ignored.

Again, CP3 is great. But he is not Magic Johnson.

[G-train]

Learn to conjure a singular, cohesive thought. Not one that bounces from wall to wall. You stated that Magic played with great players, for a great coach, and since CP3 in comparison had not, Magic's championships should not be weighted as heavily when debating between the two.

To which I combatted, Magic has everything to do with those players production as players, with the exception of Kareem, in my opinion. I also asked you what did Kareem accomplish in LA before Magic got there, which you ignored.

Again, CP3 is great. But he is not Magic Johnson.

Plain false.

Magic did not make James Worthy, Norm Nixon, Jamaal Wilkes, Michael Cooper... on top of Jabbar. He didn't make Pat Riley. He didn't make the Lakers organisation.
They are an elite team that continued to lure elite players. One that he would only play for, or he was going back to college.

I never said Magic's titles should be weighted differently. He contributed significantly, and is an all time great.

I simply stated that you cannot use that as an argument against Chris Paul, who has had no opportunity to win a championship, and anyone with any understanding knows that any PG in his situation would not have won one either.

You can compare their individual games to an extent, but you cannot compare their team accomplishments.

[branslowski]

Only on ESPN and ISH is never making it past the second round >> 5 rings:lol :facepalm

Fixed.

[The Iron Fist]

I would imagine that the answer ESPN came to was a resounding no.

But why does Paul get so much hate? He's awesome. I'd take him over Stockton and Payton for sure. Would take him over Jason Kidd as well.

Like, how many pg's in history are actually better than Chris Paul? He's definitely on the short list of best ever after Magic.
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[ninephive]

Mario Chalmers has finals stats too, doesn't make him better than cp3. Parker wasn't the best player on his team on either of his finals trips. CP3 has been the best player (usually by FAR) on his team for his entire career.
Just curious...how many Spurs games do you watch each season?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Just curious...how many Spurs games do you watch each season?
Regular season? A lot. Probably like 30-40 per season.

[steve]

Let's cut the bullshit...has anything on CP3's resume matched Magic's rookie season? Let's see him close out a game six with an injured star player, put up 42 points, 15 rebounds, 7 assists, and 3 steals, and win FMVP.

Let's see how Chris Paul does playing with the league MVP first.

[coin24]

What kind of a moron takes CP3 over Payton or Stockton :roll: :roll:

CP3 would have to be the most overrated, disappear in big moments career loser of all time. Sorry, but he is overrated as fu*k. Stick your advanced stats up your ass.

What will the excuse be when the clippers get bounced in the first round again this year? The guy does not control shit on offense and just stands back when they're losing.


Comparing him to magic??:facepalm :facepalm

[HarryCallahan]

Chris Paul isn't even better than Tony Parker let alone magic johnson

Truth.

[steve]

What kind of a moron takes CP3 over Payton or Stockton :roll: :roll:

CP3 would have to be the most overrated, disappear in big moments career loser of all time. Sorry, but he is overrated as fu*k. Stick your advanced stats up your ass.

What will the excuse be when the clippers get bounced in the first round again this year? The guy does not control shit on offense and just stands back when they're losing.


Comparing him to magic??:facepalm :facepalm

Okay, so we're supposed to take him over a guy who was the starting point guard of a team who was the first #1 seed to lose to an #8 seed?

Seriously, could people come up with more specious arguments?

[sportjames23]

I'd take him over Stockton and Payton for sure. Would take him over Jason Kidd as well.




Stoppped reading right there.

[DMAVS41]

He's never been out of the 2nd round, and he's had good enough supporting casts to get to the WCF/Finals too. No way he's as good as Kidd, Stockton or Payton.

No way? lol

[moe94]

This thread is absolutely hilarious for one reason and one reason only. You have people shitting on Paul by saying he's terrible because his teams amounted to nothing, something that has NOTHING to do with his individual ability, while at the same time saying he is nowhere near Stockton/Kidd/Payton.

I mean, really? Really? Shit is satire level comedic gold.

[Legends66NBA7]

No, Paul's not over Magic all-time and I heavily doubt he will be. He's not even over Oscar Robertson all-time. Depending where you consider Jerry West a PG or an SG, I don't think you can put Paul over him either. Then there's Isiah Thomas and Walt Fraizer over him too.

Paul has a case over the likes of Payton, Nash, Stockton, Kidd, Johnson, Cousy, etc... but that's all preference.


Wats wrong? I thought everyone liked the advanced stat nerd Era?:lol

You can't call anyone a "nerd" if your reference stats yourself in other threads.

[dunksby]

I would take Magic, Stockton, Payton, Oscar, Thomas over him personally.

[longtime lurker]

Okay, so we're supposed to take him over a guy who was the starting point guard of a team who was the first #1 seed to lose to an #8 seed?

Seriously, could people come up with more specious arguments?

So you're going to point out that Payton lost as a 1 seed but then ignore the fact that he's actually made the FINALS and has a defensive player of the year award? Seriously?

[BlackVVaves]

This thread is absolutely hilarious for one reason and one reason only. You have people shitting on Paul by saying he's terrible because his teams amounted to nothing, something that has NOTHING to do with his individual ability, while at the same time saying he is nowhere near Stockton/Kidd/Payton.

I mean, really? Really? Shit is satire level comedic gold.

Not saying I agree with them, but all three got to the Finals. That may by the thread that intertwines those whom feel that way. I think you'd fine them say they were all better overall defenders as well, though Paul is first tier at that side of the ball as well, if not elite.

Paul is the better offensive dynamic, by leaps, bounds, and entire planets. That's so conspicuously obvious it almost doesn't need to even addressed.

[TheCorporation]

Ridiculous. Magic Johnson was to offense what Bill Russell was to defense... it's not just dumb luck he's one of the greatest winners of all time. You put him on the court and suddenly everything clicks for your team offensively.

Well yeah, but be sure to put him on the court with Kareem and Worthy, too lol

It helps when you have a couple of guys like that with you.

[BIZARRO]

No, Paul's not over Magic all-time and I heavily doubt he will be. He's not even over Oscar Robertson all-time. Depending where you consider Jerry West a PG or an SG, I don't think you can put Paul over him either. Then there's Isiah Thomas and Walt Fraizer over him too.

Paul has a case over the likes of Payton, Nash, Stockton, Kidd, Johnson, Cousy, etc... but that's all preference.



You can't call anyone a "nerd" if your reference stats yourself in other threads.

Great post. :applause:

[BIZARRO]

And let me add that ESPN comparing Chris Paul to Magic Johnson is the dumbest thing I've seen in media in the past few years. And there's a lot of things to choose from, but this takes the cake.

I saw Magic play. I feared playing Magic as a Jordan /Bird fan. I have him #2 all time. He was SOOOOOO ridiculously sick.

I mean, ESPN might as well say the sky is green. :facepalm

[sportjames23]

I would take Magic, Stockton, Payton, Oscar, Thomas over him personally.


As would anyone that knows basketball.

And I actually like Chris Paul.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

It seems like ESPN just says shit to get attention these days. Lost all credibility in my eyes. I don't remember it being this bad.

[andgar923]

Of course he's not better than Magic.

But I'd put him in the top 10 pg of all time list without a doubt.

[joeyjoejoe]

No he will never be considered on the same level as magic or Oscar but everyone else is already debatable, if paul had played with a great big like shaq or duncan many people would hold him in higher regard because yes he would have multiple rings. Cp is much better player then chalmers and parker period, what about elgin Baylor played on huge franchise with the likes of west and wilt but only a total moron would think he was not a great player

[Jasi]

1. Magic

Tier 2: Oscar, Thomas, Stockton, Clyde

Tier 3: Cousy, Payton, Nash, Kidd


Those are 9.
Paul may eventually belong in Tier 3, even though I would still put TP in the 10th spot as of today.

[JordanL]

Are you serious? You need to calm down. Paul has legit claim to being the greatest traditional PG of all time. Comparing the idea that Paul might be better than Magic to Gordon and Jordan is so retarded that I'm actually mad.

CP3 isn't better than Stockton or Magic.


Tier 2: Oscar, Thomas, Stockton, Clyde

Clyde was a SG, not a PG. Terry Porter play PG for Portland with Clyde.

[Jasi]

CP3 isn't better than Stockton or Magic.



Clyde was a SG, not a PG. Terry Porter play PG for Portland with Clyde.

:wtf:
Of course I meant Walt "Clyde" Frazier, not Clyde Drexler.

[Da KO King]

Good reaction piece by ESPN.

In America (right or wrong; personally I think those that do are idiots) people use team success as an evaluation tool for an individual's ability in sports. So Chris Paul in the minds of most will NEVER be at or past the level of Magic Johnson.

[Frozen1]

Is CP3 better than Nash? Is CP3 better than Kidd?

That should be the discussion.

[BigTicket]

Chris Paul hasn't passed Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, John Stockton or Isiah Thomas yet, and he has a long way to go before reaching Magic.

[poido123]

Wats wrong? I thought everyone liked the advanced stat nerd Era?:lol

Players don't even have to win nemore, just rack up them PER, WS, stats, n u will be called the GOAT.:lol


This.

Lebron has been doing it the last 2 years and Heat fans love him for it. :oldlol:

Don't get me wrong, he's a great player, but he's fooling a lot of people protecting his FG% with safe shots, along with playing in junk time to pad his stats.


Heat fans will say I'm a hater or whatever, but it's the damn truth :oldlol:

[plowking]

What kind of a moron takes CP3 over Payton or Stockton :roll: :roll:

CP3 would have to be the most overrated, disappear in big moments career loser of all time. Sorry, but he is overrated as fu*k. Stick your advanced stats up your ass.

What will the excuse be when the clippers get bounced in the first round again this year? The guy does not control shit on offense and just stands back when they're losing.


Comparing him to magic??:facepalm :facepalm

CP3 is an easy choice over Stockton, not so much Payton.

If anyone is overrated on this board, its Stockton. Although I do agree that Paul is greatly overrated as well.

Seriously, people harp on here about Stockton like hes the 2nd best point guard, when in reality, hes not close. Hes not nearly the threat Paul is offensively. For all the years he played in the league, he only score over 30 points like 9 times. That's over his whole career. :biggums:

Not exactly a player to get you back in the game, and take over like Paul, Payton, Nash or Isiah.

[JordanL]

:wtf:
Of course I meant Walt "Clyde" Frazier, not Clyde Drexler.

Doh.

I thought it was a bit confusing.


CP3 is an easy choice over Stockton

You must be joking.

[colts19]

Here's an interesting thought exercise for people: there have been points in Magic's career where he wasn't the best player on his team (for at least 2 titles). This has never in anyway been true for Paul. How do people reconcile this when using titles as an argument? Also, in one of the articles referenced here, at this point in Magic's career, he had gained one MVP. At what point are people allowed to discuss actual production and leave accomplishments that require significant help from other players at the door when comparing two players?

You say a he wasn't the best player on his team. CP wouldn't be either if he played with KAJ. As far as actual production goes. Making other players better so you can win is the only actual production that matters.

CP is a fine player but it just shows how these numbers like WS don't mean shit.

Better than CP list.
Magic
Oscar
Thomas
Clyde F.
Nash
Kidd
Stockton
Peyton

[moe94]

CP3 is an easy choice over Stockton, not so much Payton.

If anyone is overrated on this board, its Stockton. Although I do agree that Paul is greatly overrated as well.

Seriously, people harp on here about Stockton like hes the 2nd best point guard, when in reality, hes not close. Hes not nearly the threat Paul is offensively. For all the years he played in the league, he only score over 30 points like 9 times. That's over his whole career. :biggums:


You're faulting a PG for not putting up volume scoring? Look at his primary job, passing, then come back. He was a statistical anomaly.

People who think Nash is better than Paul are absolutely retarded. Their offensively disparity is negligible at best and Nash is a shit tier defender. How is this even remotely close?

[coin24]

CP3 is an easy choice over Stockton, not so much Payton.

If anyone is overrated on this board, its Stockton. Although I do agree that Paul is greatly overrated as well.

Seriously, people harp on here about Stockton like hes the 2nd best point guard, when in reality, hes not close. Hes not nearly the threat Paul is offensively. For all the years he played in the league, he only score over 30 points like 9 times. That's over his whole career. :biggums:

Not exactly a player to get you back in the game, and take over like Paul, Payton, Nash or Isiah.

I'm not saying Stockton is the second best pg or anything stupid like that, that was in regard to a previous poster claiming CP3 shat on Payton and Stockton.
I watched a fair bit of Stockton play and IMO id take him to run my offense over Paul. Yeah I agree with you Paul is a better scorer obviously but I disagree with you on him getting you back in the game. He is passive as shit when his team is losing..

I have Magic Payton Isaiah Stockton Kidd Nash etc as the top tier pgs, CP3 is the next notch down currently. That could obviously change though..

[moe94]

Real talk, I think you people are with Skip Bayless when he said Chris Paul was not worth a max contract.

[JordanL]

Anyone who says that Paul has proven already that he's a better PG than Stockton can't be over 16 years old. Is it possible Paul could prove himself better by the end of his career? Yeah. Same is true for Curry, Irving, Lillard. Is it likely? No.

[moe94]

Anyone who says that Paul has proven already that he's a better PG than Stockton can't be over 16 years old. Is it possible Paul could prove himself better by the end of his career? Yeah. Same is true for Curry, Irving, Lillard. Is it likely? No.
Are you saying 08 Paul doesn't compare to Stockton? :oldlol:

What argument do you even have?

[coin24]

Are you saying 08 Paul doesn't compare to Stockton? :oldlol:

What argument do you even have?

So Stockton overall great career, CP3 one decent season makes him comparable?

[moe94]

So Stockton overall great career, CP3 one decent season makes him comparable?
Because Paul doesn't have amazing career overall stats. :oldlol:

For instance, Chris Paul's career stat line is good enough to be the best PG in the league today.

[Uncle Drew]

Are you saying 08 Paul doesn't compare to Stockton? :oldlol:

What argument do you even have?
2nd round exit.

[JordanL]

Because Paul doesn't have amazing career overall stats. :oldlol:

For instance, Chris Paul's career stat line is good enough to be the best PG in the league today.

John Stockton average 51.5% FG shooting and 38.4% 3P shooting for 19 years.

He average 2.2 steals per game and only missed 22 games his entire career.

CP3 just started the season with more double-doubles than anyone in history? John Stockton averaged a double-double over his entire 19 year career.

You think CP3 is better than Stockton? Take that d!ck out of your mouth, you're not speaking straight.

[moe94]

You think CP3 is better than Stockton? Take that d!ck out of your mouth, you're not speaking straight.
Everyone is aware of Stockton's longevity. What that has to do with who's a better player is beyond me.

[JordanL]

Everyone is aware of Stockton's longevity. What that has to do with who's a better player is beyond me.

You don't understand what averaging a double-double over 19 years has to do with who's a better player? :roll:

[moe94]

You don't understand what averaging a double-double over 19 years has to do with who's a better player? :roll:
Stockton is obviously way higher than Paul on any career ranking, which is where your argument holds water.

If I had to pick one to build around, it's Paul every single time and Stockton is my favorite PG ever. :confusedshrug:

[JordanL]

Stockton is obviously way higher than Paul on any career ranking, which is where your argument holds water.

If I had to pick one to build around, it's Paul every single time and Stockton is my favorite PG ever. :confusedshrug:

Which is why I used averages, which are actually only negatively affected by length of career.

Stockton was the NBA assists leader 9 consecutive years. The man was one of the best pure PG to ever play, and certainly better than Paul.

Look back. The stats I quoted have nothing to do with career length. I mentioned career length because it's even more impressive that the averages are so high over such a long career.

[Jasi]

John Stockton average 51.5% FG shooting and 38.4% 3P shooting for 19 years.



If only he had made that one 3p shot... People would have him in the discussion for GOAT PG.

[gts]

Good reaction piece by ESPN.

In America (right or wrong; personally I think those that do are idiots) people use team success as an evaluation tool for an individual's ability in sports. So Chris Paul in the minds of most will NEVER be at or past the level of Magic Johnson.

When you negotiate and except a contract as the highest paid player that's basically 25% of the total team salary it comes with a certain expectation that you'll actually be the team leader. If you don't want the pressure don't take the money, if you don't want the blame don't except the praise.

Kobe, Magic, Lebron, Wilt, Jordan etc etc etc all took the praise when the team won and the beatings when they fell short CP3 is not immune and has to answer for his faiings when his teams fall short of expectations. He has one of the best rosters in the league around him now and has no excuses. It's time to step up and lead the team or step down

[grantz]

You don't understand what averaging a double-double over 19 years has to do with who's a better player? :roll:

Have you seen Stockton though? I have in great detail. He kicked my dark ages lakers out of the playoffs season after season. Stockton is a great PG, but he had Hornacek and Malone.

Almost every damn play he ran was a P&R (with elbows out) and tossed it back to either Malone for a mid-range or Hornacek for a 3.

CP has great people to dish to no doubt, but nowhere near as reliable as what Stockton had. That said I still think CP is still a very, very long way to what Stockton has done, but I would call CP3 more skilled because the clippers today just sit and watch for paul to create his own shot during crunch time.

[Charlie Sheen]

When you negotiate and except a contract as the highest paid player that's basically 25% of the total team salary it comes with a certain expectation that you'll actually be the team leader. If you don't want the pressure don't take the money, if you don't want the blame don't except the praise.

Kobe, Magic, Lebron, Wilt, Jordan etc etc etc all took the praise when the team won and the beatings when they fell short CP3 is not immune and has to answer for his faiings when his teams fall short of expectations. He has one of the best rosters in the league around him now and has no excuses. It's time to step up and lead the team or step down
I hadn't realized Kobe, Magic, Lebron, Wilt, Jordan, etc etc etc were playing 1 on 5 when their teams won titles.

Following the logic in your post, Dirk didn't become a complete player until 2011. That doesn't come across as ridiculous to you?

[gts]

Following the logic in your post, Dirk didn't become a complete player until 2011. That doesn't come across as ridiculous to you?

I didn't realize Dirk was in the discussion as one of the greatest players ever.

That's what this discussion is, is CP3 the greatest point guard ever? When Dirk is in the discussion as the best PF ever then you can bring him into a discussion and how his wins and losses compare to other greats but he's not even close so it's silly to bring his name up...

The players I mentioned as an example have all been tossed about as being the best at their respective positions and even as all time greats, players on that level rise above normal expectations and using their accolades or lack of is a viable separator between the players.

You play to win the title not make a little noise in the playoffs

[Legends66NBA7]

Good reaction piece by ESPN.

In America (right or wrong; personally I think those that do are idiots) people use team success as an evaluation tool for an individual's ability in sports. So Chris Paul in the minds of most will NEVER be at or past the level of Magic Johnson.

It's not even about rings, that's just bonus points on Magic's resume. Magic just accomplished so much in the playoffs individually than Paul did. How can you be the best PG ever if you haven't even made the Conference Finals, let alone the Finals, and performed there ?

What is honestly the case for Paul over Magic in terms of individual accomplishments/ability ?

[chocolatethunder]

OP, although I agree with what you're saying. It kinda makes you look like a moron when you use a word that doesn't exist like "moronical".

[gts]

OP, although I agree with what you're saying. It kinda makes you look like a moron when you use a word that doesn't exist like "moronical".

1. moronical
Comically moronic

Coined by Robert Downing Jr. in the 2008 film "Tropic Thunder"
The fans on the Giants forum who want Eli traded are moronical

Urban Dictionary

[chocolatethunder]

1. moronical
Comically moronic

Coined by Robert Downing Jr. in the 2008 film "Tropic Thunder"
The fans on the Giants forum who want Eli traded are moronical

Urban Dictionary
The word is moronic. This wasn't some joke thread. The dude is trying to make a point and it doesn't help his point when he doesn't have a handle on his native tongue.

[DMAVS41]

You say a he wasn't the best player on his team. CP wouldn't be either if he played with KAJ. As far as actual production goes. Making other players better so you can win is the only actual production that matters.

CP is a fine player but it just shows how these numbers like WS don't mean shit.

Better than CP list.
Magic
Oscar
Thomas
Clyde F.
Nash
Kidd
Stockton
Peyton

There is little to no reason to rank Kidd, Nash, Stockton, and Payton over CP3. I'm not saying CP3 is for sure better, but that he is on that level for sure.

I think Magic was obviously the best pg ever. I'd take Thomas and Oscar over CP3 as well.

But this notion that a guy like Nash or Stockton are on a different level than Paul needs to ****ing stop.

Especially if the argument is that CP3 hasn't done enough winning. Nash couldn't even make the ****ing finals playing on loaded Suns teams. Stockton made the finals twice and never won playing his entire career with a top 20 GOAT player? LOL...you really think CP3 and Barkley playing their entire careers together never win? Or CP3 and Dirk? Come on now...

[moe94]

This place is a mystery. Let's run down a few things.

Would you disagree that Blake Griffin is far and away the best player Paul has played with? You wouldn't? Okay, do you also consider BG to be hilariously overrated? You do? How then can you fault Paul for not doing anything substantial in the playoffs when you make the implication that his supporting cast is nowhere near the other all time great point guards? If there was a redraft of all the PGs, would you really take the likes of Payton, Stockton, Nash and Kidd over Paul? Isiah Really? Paul was a legit MVP candidate and a top 3 player, something none of those ever remotely approached, regardless of Nash actually winning the award twice. Unless you think this entire era is suspect and irrelevant, your logic is all over the place.

[chocolatethunder]

There is little to no reason to rank Kidd, Nash, Stockton, and Payton over CP3. I'm not saying CP3 is for sure better, but that he is on that level for sure.

I think Magic was obviously the best pg ever. I'd take Thomas and Oscar over CP3 as well.

But this notion that a guy like Nash or Stockton are on a different level than Paul needs to ****ing stop.

Especially if the argument is that CP3 hasn't done enough winning. Nash couldn't even make the ****ing finals playing on loaded Suns teams. Stockton made the finals twice and never won playing his entire career with a top 20 GOAT player? LOL...you really think CP3 and Barkley playing their entire careers together never win? Or CP3 and Dirk? Come on now...
I'll take your bait. Nash led a team minus Amare deep into the playoffs. They weren't stacked because of injury. Nash had never needed to be a scorer but in the playoffs he absolutely tore it up. I dunno if you were around for that.

As far as Stockton goes, playing with some other hall of famer doesn't mean that you're going to win it all. They may have had Jeff Malone for a while but if you think that those Jazz teams in any way compared to the other teams like the Bulls who they faced in the finals then you're nuts. No, I don't think Barkley and Paul would win a championship. What did it take for Paul Pierce and Rondo to win? It took Ray Allen and Garnett. Dirk and Nash couldn't win by themselves so why do you think that Stockton and Malone could? Stockton was awesome. He was a really good man defender for a lot of his career and later a great team defender. He didn't score a lot not because he couldn't but because he wasn't asked to. Those teams were overachieving well coached teams. Paul is not on his level. Paul is about on Payton and Kidds level. Maybe by the end of his career but not now. It's not even close. To even mention him with Zeke or Magic or Stockton is just stupid.

[Young X]

CP is already a more complete and more productive player than Stockton and Kidd ever were. This is a guy who almost fairly won MVP over prime Kobe while putting up better numbers than him, think about it.

[DMAVS41]

I'll take your bait. Nash led a team minus Amare deep into the playoffs. They weren't stacked because of injury. Nash had never needed to be a scorer but in the playoffs he absolutely tore it up. I dunno if you were around for that.

As far as Stockton goes, playing with some other hall of famer doesn't mean that you're going to win it all. They may have had Jeff Malone for a while but if you think that those Jazz teams in any way compared to the other teams like the Bulls who they faced in the finals then you're nuts. No, I don't think Barkley and Paul would win a championship. What did it take for Paul Pierce and Rondo to win? It took Ray Allen and Garnett. Dirk and Nash couldn't win by themselves so why do you think that Stockton and Malone could? Stockton was awesome. He was a really good man defender for a lot of his career and later a great team defender. He didn't score a lot not because he couldn't but because he wasn't asked to. Those teams were overachieving well coached teams. Paul is not on his level. Paul is about on Payton and Kidds level. Maybe by the end of his career but not now. It's not even close. To even mention him with Zeke or Magic or Stockton is just stupid.


Well, we have different views on Stockton, but I have to just laugh a bit at the notion that Barkley and Paul or Paul and Dirk just never win.

But it's kind of irrelevant considering all the guys you are talking about never won. Paul has played with straight up horrible teams compared to the Nash Suns, Stockton Jazz, and Payton Sonics. These Clippers teams and that one Hornets team simply doesn't compare.

So all we have is a guard that gives you 19/10/4 in the regular season and 21/10/5 in the playoffs for his career. On very good efficiency all while being a very good defender at his position as well.

He's absolutely on the Nash, Stockton, Kidd, and Payton level...already. Seriously...this notion that Stockton was on a different level than Paul is just laughable. Paul was a better rebounder and scorer for sure. Stockton was a better passer and defender, not by a huge margin defensively.

So what makes Stockton better? That he made the finals twice playing with a top 20 GOAT for his entire career? Because it sure as hell isn't individual play...

So if Paul makes the finals a couple times he's now as good as Stockton? Well, give him Karl Malone or Barkley or Dirk...and he'd do more than make the finals.

[chocolatethunder]

Well, we have different views on Stockton, but I have to just laugh a bit at the notion that Barkley and Paul or Paul and Dirk just never win.

But it's kind of irrelevant considering all the guys you are talking about never won. Paul has played with straight up horrible teams compared to the Nash Suns, Stockton Jazz, and Payton Sonics. These Clippers teams and that one Hornets team simply doesn't compare.

So all we have is a guard that gives you 19/10/4 in the regular season and 21/10/5 in the playoffs for his career. On very good efficiency all while being a very good defender at his position as well.

He's absolutely on the Nash, Stockton, Kidd, and Payton level...already.
Why is it laughable? I'm saying that it takes more than just two awesome players to win a championship. I'm not saying they never win. I'm saying that it doesn't matter how good Stockton and Malone were, they weren't good enough to win. There are lots of reasons why. First of all, they played in the best era of basketball against Magic and Jordan and Hakeem and Bird and people like that. Not to mention those early 90s Blazer teams. I hated Utah at the time but now I can say that they certainly weren't a stacked team in any way. They didn't even come close in comparison (as far as talent goes) to the teams they were playing against. They happened to have an awesome coach and they were disciplined and played well. So no, I don't think that Barkley and Paul or Dirk and Paul would just automatically win a championship. I do not think he's on their level already. I want to be honest and you can flame me all you want but with Paul, I just don't feel like he makes the guys around him better as much as those other guys did (excluding payton). You can go off on me all you want but I have seen him play plenty. That's just my opinion.

[HurricaneKid]

I'll take your bait. Nash led a team minus Amare deep into the playoffs. They weren't stacked because of injury. Nash had never needed to be a scorer but in the playoffs he absolutely tore it up. I dunno if you were around for that.

As far as Stockton goes, playing with some other hall of famer doesn't mean that you're going to win it all. They may have had Jeff Malone for a while but if you think that those Jazz teams in any way compared to the other teams like the Bulls who they faced in the finals then you're nuts. No, I don't think Barkley and Paul would win a championship. What did it take for Paul Pierce and Rondo to win? It took Ray Allen and Garnett. Dirk and Nash couldn't win by themselves so why do you think that Stockton and Malone could? Stockton was awesome. He was a really good man defender for a lot of his career and later a great team defender. He didn't score a lot not because he couldn't but because he wasn't asked to. Those teams were overachieving well coached teams. Paul is not on his level. Paul is about on Payton and Kidds level. Maybe by the end of his career but not now. It's not even close. To even mention him with Zeke or Magic or Stockton is just stupid.

So wrong...

Jazz basketball was predicated on essentially one play that defenses weren't allowed to defend. The rules re: defense have been loosened immensely.

The one year you are talking about in regards to Nash when he took the team to the WCF, he still had a REALLY good supporting team and they beat the 7 seed when Kobe refused to shoot in game 7 then beat the 6 seed Clipps in 7 games. SO WHAT?? Nash loses any conversation with any great PG because he was almost inarguably one of the worst defenders in the history of the NBA. And in the playoffs he wasn't great either. His career playoff PER is <20 and his highest in any year is 23.4. CP3's playoff career PER is 25.5 and he has had 3 playoff runs at 28.9 or higher. And he is an elite PG defender.

I don't think a lot of people are willing to put CP3 with Magic. Nor should they. But Zeke? WTF not? You could argue Zeke wasn't as important to those teams as Dantley, Rodman, Dumars at times, Microwave at times, etc (Laimbeer, Salley, Aguirre were also massive contributors). His playoff PER is <20 as well and he rarely separated himself from the other 3-4 guards on the team.

[DMAVS41]

Why is it laughable? I'm saying that it takes more than just two awesome players to win a championship. I'm not saying they never win. I'm saying that it doesn't matter how good Stockton and Malone were, they weren't good enough to win. There are lots of reasons why. First of all, they played in the best era of basketball against Magic and Jordan and Hakeem and Bird and people like that. Not to mention those early 90s Blazer teams. I hated Utah at the time but now I can say that they certainly weren't a stacked team in any way. They didn't even come close in comparison (as far as talent goes) to the teams they were playing against. They happened to have an awesome coach and they were disciplined and played well. So no, I don't think that Barkley and Paul or Dirk and Paul would just automatically win a championship. I do not think he's on their level already. I want to be honest and you can flame me all you want but with Paul, I just don't feel like he makes the guys around him better as much as those other guys did (excluding payton). You can go off on me all you want but I have seen him play plenty. That's just my opinion.

I know that is what you think. And that is fine. I find it laughable. Why? Because I think Paul is way better than you do...lol

I'm trying to understand why you think it's laughable to put Paul and Stockton's level? Individually by all accounts they were very similar (I'd argue Paul is better, but that doesn't matter here)...and I don't see any reason to think Stockton makes his teams better than Paul does.

So could you try to explain why Stockton is so much better than Paul to date? Thanks.

[DMAVS41]

So wrong...

Jazz basketball was predicated on essentially one play that defenses weren't allowed to defend. The rules re: defense have been loosened immensely.

The one year you are talking about in regards to Nash when he took the team to the WCF, he still had a REALLY good supporting team and they beat the 7 seed when Kobe refused to shoot in game 7 then beat the 6 seed Clipps in 7 games. SO WHAT?? Nash loses any conversation with any great PG because he was almost inarguably one of the worst defenders in the history of the NBA. And in the playoffs he wasn't great either. His career playoff PER is <20 and his highest in any year is 23.4. CP3's playoff career PER is 25.5 and he has had 3 playoff runs at 28.9 or higher. And he is an elite PG defender.

I don't think a lot of people are willing to put CP3 with Magic. Nor should they. But Zeke? WTF not? You could argue Zeke wasn't as important to those teams as Dantley, Rodman, Dumars at times, Microwave at times, etc (Laimbeer, Salley, Aguirre were also massive contributors). His playoff PER is <20 as well and he rarely separated himself from the other 3-4 guards on the team.

I agree with almost all of this. I do think Zeke deserves to be thought of as better than Paul to date due to some of his playoff performances and his playoff play in 1990 to be more specific. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Zeke was way better, but to date I think he deserves the nod over Paul...even though as players they are close in my opinion.