Kenny to Shaq, "You might have been able to handle Kareem but you would NOT....

[Dro]

have been able to handle Lew Alcindor....Kenny just said this to Shaq at halftime. How do you guys feel?

[sbw19]

There's no stopping Shaq, and there's no stopping the sky hook.

[Dro]

There's no stopping Shaq, and there's no stopping the sky hook.

So you're basically saying they both would score high against each other...I'd agree...

[ZMonkey11]

Like I said in the other post, it's a good conversation piece, but Magic did not play with prime Kareem.

And as above stated, neither of those two players would be able to stop each other. Both too offensively dominant.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Peak shaq is the best player ever imo.

[sbw19]

Basically.. different strengths, both tremendous in their own ways.

[jzek]

Shaq would injure Lew/Kareem 3 mins in if they played 1v1.

No one in the past, present, and maybe future can "handle" Shaq 1v1 or in a 5v5 real game situation.

[moe94]

Peak shaq is the best player ever imo.
Considering his absolute liability on free throw shooting, how can say that with a straight face?

[TheReal Kendall]

I would rather see Wilt vs Shaq.

Wilt seemed stronger than Kareem

[che guevara]

I feel Kenny Smith is mentally challenged. Kareem changed his name in his 2nd season, when he was 23.

[BlackVVaves]

I feel Kenny Smith is mentally challenged. Kareem changed his name in his 2nd season, when he was 23.

I think he was going for effect, rather than fact :confusedshrug:

[SHAQisGOAT]

Lol, dumb statement as usual.

With that said, most people remember or watch more of Kareem in his last days with the Lakers, like mid to late 80s, when he was still a great player but not quite the same as earlier in his career, especially as an athlete.
When Kareem was younger he was just an amazing athlete, like 7'2'' w/o shoes, big wingspan, big hands, great mobility, could run the floor, could really jump and dunk with force, great coordination and conditioning... Still, he was not at his best when he was Alcindor, his peak was around 1977 rather, when he was still really athletic, when he had put on some weight to deal with the bigger centers, he was an offensive beast, a terrific rebounder, and an all-time DPOY level center (would've won like 3 had it been the award), and off-the-charts intangibles.. Just that the team was too ****ing weak so it (his actual peak) doesn't get more recognition, still led them to 53 wins and the WCF, playing at a level that not more than 4 players have ever reached.

Oh, and Shaq's my favorite player with a top 5 peak at least, but tbh KAJ is the GOAT center.
If they went against each other, it would've been one hell of a game/series. Shaq was stronger and bigger centers bothered Kareem the most, he was even more athletic overall, with that and his skill it made him unstoppable, peak Shaq was a freakin beast. On the other hand, Kareem had more moves and ways to score, more range, obviously a better FT shooter, on the same level as a rebounder and an even better overall defensive player so that helps the team more. It could've gone either way but it also depends on their teammates, gotta admit Kareem would've most likely be more impactful most of the time.

[Mr. Jabbar]

there's no stopping the sky hook.


one of the few consensus in basketball :applause: :applause:

[TylerOO]

I feel like I gotta google Lew Alcindor cause I have no clue who that is...

[moe94]

I feel like I gotta google Lew Alcindor cause I have no clue who that is...
The LeBron avatar makes this perfect. :applause:

[Mr. Jabbar]

I feel like I gotta google Lew Alcindor cause I have no clue who that is...

<---

[Mr. Jabbar]

The LeBron avatar makes this perfect. :applause:

:roll:

[Micku]

:oldlol:

A dream match. But they aren't going to stop each other. They are both too good.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I would rather see Wilt vs Shaq.

Wilt seemed stronger than Kareem
Kareem owned Wilt though. I think what the world really wants to see is prime Mikan vs prime Shaq.

[SHAQisGOAT]

The LeBron avatar makes this perfect. :applause:

:lol

[fpliii]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/.element/img/2.0/sect/statscube/players/large/dwight_howard.png

[chazzy]

I feel like I gotta google Lew Alcindor cause I have no clue who that is...
:oldlol:

[BlackVVaves]

For the record. The 80s Lakers were more dominant than the 2000s Lakers.

However. 2001-2003 Shaq and Kobe were a more dominant tandem than (past his prime) Kareem and Magic, other than maybe 1980?

[coin24]

The LeBron avatar makes this perfect. :applause:

:roll: :roll:

[CavaliersFTW]

Kareem owned Wilt though. I think what the world really wants to see is prime Mikan vs prime Shaq.
No he didn't, they both had different roles so it doesn't show up in their stats at a glance - but Wilt outplayed Kareem in both 71 and 72 playoffs when they squared off. That's 2 outta 3 series Wilt came out on top as the individual performer. Wilt was also old when he was doing this, well beyond his prime years.

[secund2nun]

Prime Shaq vs Prime Kareem: Shaq wins.

While it's true Shaq would not be able to stop Kareem very well, Kareem would have a harder time stopping Shaq. Shaq would bully Kareem due to his weight advantage for easy points which would be a higher percentage shot than a Kareem move. In his prime he was around 235-240 and Peak Shaq was around 320-330. It's a guarantee that prime Shaq would bully Kareem. If they actually faced each other Kareem and the PF would double Shaq.

[L.Kizzle]

Prime Shaq vs Prime Kareem: Shaq wins.

While it's true Shaq would not be able to stop Kareem very well, Kareem would have a harder time stopping Shaq. Shaq would bully Kareem due to his weight advantage for easy points which would be a higher percentage shot than a Kareem move. In his prime he was around 235-240 and Peak Shaq was around 320-330. It's a guarantee that prime Shaq would bully Kareem. If they actually faced each other Kareem and the PF would double Shaq.
Do you even know what you just wrote?

[Deuce Bigalow]

No he didn't, they both had different roles so it doesn't show up in their stats at a glance - but Wilt outplayed Kareem in both 71 and 72 playoffs when they squared off. That's 2 outta 3 series Wilt came out on top as the individual performer. Wilt was also old when he was doing this, well beyond his prime years.
Wilt did not outplay Kareem in 2/3 series :oldlol:

[dunksby]

No he didn't, they both had different roles so it doesn't show up in their stats at a glance - but Wilt outplayed Kareem in both 71 and 72 playoffs when they squared off. That's 2 outta 3 series Wilt came out on top as the individual performer. Wilt was also old when he was doing this, well beyond his prime years.
Dude you are a good poster but STFU :oldlol:

[russwest0]

I feel like I gotta google Lew Alcindor cause I have no clue who that is...

:lol :lol :lol

Average Heat "fan"

[bdreason]

Both guys would have had their way on offense.

[BlackVVaves]

Lot of uneducated posters spotlighted in this thread I see :hammerhead:

[Legends66NBA7]

It would be similar to the 95 Finals, although in this case, both players at their peaks. Neither player stops the other.

[kamil]

I feel like I gotta google Lew Alcindor cause I have no clue who that is...

That's how you spot a Miami Heat fan.

[Micku]

Prime Shaq vs Prime Kareem: Shaq wins.

While it's true Shaq would not be able to stop Kareem very well, Kareem would have a harder time stopping Shaq. Shaq would bully Kareem due to his weight advantage for easy points which would be a higher percentage shot than a Kareem move. In his prime he was around 235-240 and Peak Shaq was around 320-330. It's a guarantee that prime Shaq would bully Kareem. If they actually faced each other Kareem and the PF would double Shaq.

David Robinson was around that weight too, and he always did a decent job against Shaq. Tim Duncan too. They were able to contain Shaq, and sometimes made him shoot under 50%. And also Dennis Rodman did a great job against Shaq as well.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

I'm a big Shaq fan but.....

Shaq isn't going to bully prime Kareem. Cap might have been a finesse player but he was STRONG. People only remember old ass Kareem because he players until he was 42. If Olajuwon gave Shaq trouble, a prime Kareem would do that and then some. Most of y'all don't know when it comes to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Ya just don't know. Dude was bad.

[kenny817]

I feel like I gotta google Lew Alcindor cause I have no clue who that is...

Quickest neg of all time

[Greg Oden 50]

Peak shaq is the best player ever imo.

JABBAR WOULD TOY SHAQ NO DOUBT

[Greg Oden 50]

I would rather see Wilt vs Shaq.

Wilt seemed stronger than Kareem

JABBAR IS ONE OF THE STUDENTS OF BRUCE LEE

[Psileas]

Dude you are a good poster but STFU :oldlol:

If people can say that Russell was outplaying Wilt "because he knew how to win, regardless of the boxscore", what's wrong in believing that Wilt outplayed Kareem in the 1972 playoffs, as was shown by the final result?

Not that it makes much difference however to who outplayed whom, since, any way you cut it, Wilt and Kareem outplayed each other once each. Each team won one series apiece and Wilt individually outplayed Kareem in 1971, while Kareem individually outplayed Wilt in 1972 (but not to the extend that the boxscore shows, since Wilt's role involved much less shooting, which in most people's minds translates to "involved getting outplayed").

[jlip]

...

I remember reading one of your posts awhile back where Kareem mentioned that he had peaked in weight at around 275ish. Do you remember the actual post and/ or weight?

[Andrei89]

I feel like I gotta google Lew Alcindor cause I have no clue who that is...

WOW!!

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[Psileas]

I don't remember the post, but I do remember a 267 figure being attributed to Kareem. Not certain about the period, but that makes him deceptively big.

[jlip]

I don't remember the post, but I do remember a 267 figure being attributed to Kareem. Not certain about the period, but that makes him deceptively big.

OK. Thanks

[bond10]

There's no stopping Shaq, and there's no stopping the sky hook.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xadvGLLx1E

[CavaliersFTW]

I don't remember the post, but I do remember a 267 figure being attributed to Kareem. Not certain about the period, but that makes him deceptively big.
As a rookie he was 228lbs. By 2nd season 232 and by third season 237. From there until the early/mid 1980's he was about 240lbs as I've even heard him mention he was about 240 in some mid 1980's interviews and he still looked his typical 'skinny' size. Only at the very tail end of his career did he get listed at 267 and did he look visibly bigger, so I'm assuming he only put on significant mass towards the very end of his career - not sure which season exactly he put on all the mass but his prime weight was about 240.

[scm5]

Both guys would have had their way on offense.

I don't agree. Kareem would not be able to keep Shaq in check, but Shaq has a good chance of keeing Kareem in check simply because he would be able to keep him out of the paint.

The only player that I could see giving Shaq problems is Wilt. Wilt was a freakish athlete that was also incredibly strong. There's a clip somewhere of Wilt and Shaq meeting, and Wilt actually makes young Shaq look small. I still think Prime Shaq is much stronger than Wilt ever was, but with Wilt's athleticism, he would be able to give Shaq problems. Wilt has also been able to block the Sky hook on multiple occasions. Just thought I should add that in.

[CavaliersFTW]

I don't agree. Kareem would not be able to keep Shaq in check, but Shaq has a good chance of keeing Kareem in check simply because he would be able to keep him out of the paint.

The only player that I could see giving Shaq problems is Wilt. Wilt was a freakish athlete that was also incredibly strong. There's a clip somewhere of Wilt and Shaq meeting, and Wilt actually makes young Shaq look small. I still think Prime Shaq is much stronger than Wilt ever was, but with Wilt's athleticism, he would be able to give Shaq problems. Wilt has also been able to block the Sky hook on multiple occasions. Just thought I should add that in.
You don't know Alcindor's game if you think Shaq 'keeping him out of the paint' would 'stop' him.

Alcindor had face-up game, and shooting touch. And Shaq isn't touching a skyhook.

[scm5]

You don't know Alcindor's game if you think Shaq 'keeping him out of the paint' would 'stop' him.

Alcindor had face-up game, and shooting touch. And Shaq isn't touching a skyhook.

It wouldn't stop him, but it would limit his game.

Kareem wouldn't be able to handle anything Shaq loved to do. The players that have given Shaq problems in the past were stronger or very athletic players with a good amount of strength like Hakeem, Big Ben, and Sabonis.

Shaq was a very smart player, he did most of his work before he got the ball. He was very good at getting position, sealing his player, and converting with his signature drop step. That's all day, especially against weaker players. He was also very consistent at this. His mentality was, he needed to get 7 points per quarter and he would keep at it, getting to his position and going into his move. It was unstoppable.

[sbw19]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xadvGLLx1E

If this is the footage of Wilt blocking the sky hook twice then it isn't something I haven't already seen. Shaq got rejected a handful of times back in his heyday (sometimes on dunk attempts), but no one stopped him. It's a testament to Wilt's defense and athleticism that he was able to block the sky hook on multiple occasions, but he didn't stop it from being Kareem's go-to move against him or anyone else.

[La Frescobaldi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xadvGLLx1E
No version of Shaq got that high in a game situation.

[moe94]

No version of Shaq got that high in a game situation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoEWO5ypOPM

Keep being wrong, though.

[La Frescobaldi]

It wouldn't stop him, but it would limit his game.

Kareem wouldn't be able to handle anything Shaq loved to do. The players that have given Shaq problems in the past were stronger or very athletic players with a good amount of strength like Hakeem, Big Ben, and Sabonis.

Shaq was a very smart player, he did most of his work before he got the ball. He was very good at getting position, sealing his player, and converting with his signature drop step. That's all day, especially against weaker players. He was also very consistent at this. His mentality was, he needed to get 7 points per quarter and he would keep at it, getting to his position and going into his move. It was unstoppable.

I'm past skeptical that O'Neal would keep Cap from getting the exact stats he got for a decade, about 30 & 8 & 3. Jabbar had a beautiful jump shot out to 20 feet. He had more moves than any player O'Neal ever matched up with, except maybe (and it is a very BIG MAYBE) Olajuwon. Jabbar in '73, '74 up to about '78 or '79 was absolutely incredible. He had plenty of "dream shake" moves, long before Hakeem ever showed up in college. Dude played at the skill and speed levels of an elite small forward.
It takes better defense than Shaq ever had to stop Kareem playing in all his glory.... believe it.

Robert Parish said the A-Train was the strongest guy he ever played against, and he won a ring in 19 freaking 97 as a backup on the Bulls.... so he saw lot of Shaq.

That said, Kareem ain't stopping O'Neal either, not the 2000-2004 Shaq.

[La Frescobaldi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoEWO5ypOPM

Keep being wrong, though.

that ain't even close.

[moe94]

that ain't even close.

Tell me, does it physically hurt being so blinded by bias?

[La Frescobaldi]

Tell me, does it physically hurt being so blinded by bias?

I started to say camera angles are different but truth, Shaq is getting right up there, ain't he!!

OK how about this one then. Not skyhook but look at 46 seconds into the clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF8yJ1J1W7Q

[moe94]

I started to say camera angles are different but truth, Shaq is getting right up there, ain't he!!

OK how about this one then. Not skyhook but look at 46 seconds into the clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF8yJ1J1W7Q
That was mind boggling.

[La Frescobaldi]

That was mind boggling.
do you mean the clip? or the fact I agreed with you on Shaq goin high like that?
:lol

[MaxFly]

Basically.. different strengths, both tremendous in their own ways.


Agreed... Kareem wouldn't have been able to sufficiently contain Shaq's raw power, and Shaq wouldn't have been able to sufficiently stymie Kareem's overall arsenal.

[MaxFly]

I feel like I gotta google Lew Alcindor cause I have no clue who that is...

Seriously? Sigh... here...

http://tinyurl.com/kp3d84r

[Deuce Bigalow]

If people can say that Russell was outplaying Wilt "because he knew how to win, regardless of the boxscore", what's wrong in believing that Wilt outplayed Kareem in the 1972 playoffs, as was shown by the final result?

Not that it makes much difference however to who outplayed whom, since, any way you cut it, Wilt and Kareem outplayed each other once each. Each team won one series apiece and Wilt individually outplayed Kareem in 1971, while Kareem individually outplayed Wilt in 1972 (but not to the extend that the boxscore shows, since Wilt's role involved much less shooting, which in most people's minds translates to "involved getting outplayed").
Fair enough. 1-1 each. Both of them can't touch prime Mikan though, he was something else.

[scm5]

I'm past skeptical that O'Neal would keep Cap from getting the exact stats he got for a decade, about 30 & 8 & 3. Jabbar had a beautiful jump shot out to 20 feet. He had more moves than any player O'Neal ever matched up with, except maybe (and it is a very BIG MAYBE) Olajuwon. Jabbar in '73, '74 up to about '78 or '79 was absolutely incredible. He had plenty of "dream shake" moves, long before Hakeem ever showed up in college. Dude played at the skill and speed levels of an elite small forward.
It takes better defense than Shaq ever had to stop Kareem playing in all his glory.... believe it.

Robert Parish said the A-Train was the strongest guy he ever played against, and he won a ring in 19 freaking 97 as a backup on the Bulls.... so he saw lot of Shaq.

That said, Kareem ain't stopping O'Neal either, not the 2000-2004 Shaq.

1997, Shaq was 24. He was in his athletic prime, but not his prime as a player. Neither was he as strong back then as he was in the 3-peat years. Shaq was an absolute monster.

[Owl]

There's different situations to take account of here.

1 on 1.
1 on 1 matchups within a team game.
Impact within a team game.

With regard to the last...

Shaq would likely cause some problems with his bulk. But his complete absence of a J or anything outside immediate vicinity of the basket means Jabbar can stay close to the basket and have an impact with help D on penetrators.

Kareem meanwhile can take Shaq outside and, leaving aside his hooking over or driving past him, opening the lane up for penetration. Anything but perhaps early, Orlando Shaq would have trouble getting back to the rim in time.

I'm not normally one for how you put your points in, so long as it's efficient (I've seen, and laughed at, too many Melo is the best scorer because he scores in the most ways, threads). But here where how you score matters because it affects spacing. Neither could probably do more than limit or contain the damage done by the other. But I like Jabbar a little better because his ridiculous efficiency also came with this versatility (and you can't just foul him).

[moe94]

do you mean the clip? or the fact I agreed with you on Shaq goin high like that?
:lol
The clip. The other thing, too, I guess.:cheers:

[eliteballer]

http://www.bostonsportsmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/Kareem-Abdul-Jabbar.jpg

[LAZERUSS]

I have long maintained that KAJ's peak came very early in his career...from '71 thru '73 (of course, he played four years of college and was 23-25 in those three years.) The footage clearly shows a much quicker, more athletic, and even more energetic Kareem (Alcindor in '70 and '71) than the heavier Kareem in seasons after that.

As for those that somehow suggest that KAJ outplayed Wilt...

In their only meeting before Chamberlain shredded his knee, Wilt wiped the floor with Kareem. And in their first 11 H2H games, a 33-34 year Chamberlain (again, with 10 of those games a season after major knee surgery), Wilt statistically outplayed a prime Kareem.

Now, the real question would have been, what would a PRIME Chamberlain have carpet-bombed a peak KAJ with? I have said it before, but just compare a PRIME Wilt's career H2H's with the same centers that a prime KAJ would face a few years later. Wilt was just light-years ahead of Kareem in those H2H comparisons.

As for the Shaq-Alcindor H2H's...both would get their points. Neither would be able to contain the other. However, Alcindor was a very under-rated defensive player early in his career. Just look at his Bucks' team defenses from '71 thru '74. They were miles ahead of their peers. And, he was also an under-rated rebounder. IMHO, Alcindor was a better scorer, a more efficient scorer, a better rebounder, a better passer, and a better defensive player. Overall, I think Alcindor would have outplayed a prime Shaq.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I have long maintained that KAJ's peak came very early in his career...from '71 thru '73 (of course, he played four years of college and was 23-25 in those three years.) The footage clearly shows a much quicker, more athletic, and even more energetic Kareem (Alcindor in '70 and '71) than the heavier Kareem in seasons after that.

As for those that somehow suggest that KAJ outplayed Wilt...

In their only meeting before Chamberlain shredded his knee, Wilt wiped the floor with Kareem. And in their first 11 H2H games, a 33-34 year Chamberlain (again, with 10 of those games a season after major knee surgery), Wilt statistically outplayed a prime Kareem.

Now, the real question would have been, what would a PRIME Chamberlain have carpet-bombed a peak KAJ with? I have said it before, but just compare a PRIME Wilt's career H2H's with the same centers that a prime KAJ would face a few years later. Wilt was just light-years ahead of Kareem in those H2H comparisons.



I have long maintained you don't know what you're talking about, Kareem was peaking in 1977. He was playing with some really weak-ass teammates though, and the coach was Jerry West.

As for the rest: same old, same old.

[ralph_i_el]

I feel like I gotta google Lew Alcindor cause I have no clue who that is...

:roll: :confusedshrug: :roll:
Typical heat fan

I bet your favorite boxer isn't Cassius Clay is it?

[LAZERUSS]

I have long maintained you don't know what you're talking about, Kareem was peaking in 1977. He was playing with some really weak-ass teammates though, and the coach was Jerry West.

As for the rest: same old, same old.

Nope. Not even close. In fact, by '77 you could argue that he wasn't even the best player in the league. By that time (and before he was injured) McAdoo was the better player (and he was robbed of the MVP in '76 BTW.) And players like Lanier and Gilmore were battling Kareem to near-draws in their H2H's. Some would even claim that Walton was a better player (not me, though.)

Furthermore, from '79 on, Moses was the better player, and in fact, would wipe the floor with Kareem from '79 thru '83 in their H2H's.

[Pacquiao]

a 2000 version of Shaq would have dominated Hakeem. He would be in foul trouble most of the game.

[LAZERUSS]

a 2000 version of Shaq would have dominated Hakeem. He would be in foul trouble most of the game.

The '99 version did just that in the playoffs...

[The_Yearning]

Seriously? Sigh... here...

http://tinyurl.com/kp3d84r

Does this dude really use bing?

[pauk]

I guess Kenny didnt know Kareem was "Lew" only for his first 2 years in the NBA... after that he was better in every single way, his skills/talent/athleticism/stats/whatever all in all was at its peak early to mid 70s somewhere as KAREEM...

[SHAQisGOAT]

Nope. Not even close. In fact, by '77 you could argue that he wasn't even the best player in the league. By that time (and before he was injured) McAdoo was the better player (and he was robbed of the MVP in '76 BTW.) And players like Lanier and Gilmore were battling Kareem to near-draws in their H2H's. Some would even claim that Walton was a better player (not me, though.)

Furthermore, from '79 on, Moses was the better player, and in fact, would wipe the floor with Kareem from '79 thru '83 in their H2H's.

Please just stop, you're making a fool out of yourself. "Not even the best player in the league"? :facepalm

Look at his 1977 regular season:

26.2 PPG (3rd)
13.3 RPG (2nd)
3.9 APG
1.2 SPG
3.2 BPG (2nd)
57.9 FG% (1st)
70.1 FT%
36.8 MPG (not even top10)
1st in WS and WS/48
1st in OWS
1st in DWS
3rd in DRtg
1st in PER
MVP

Lakers had the best record in the regular-season, with 53 wins. Amongst his best teammates were an old Cazzie Russell, Lucius Allen also in his final years, Kermit Washington and an also old Don Chaney. Jerry West was the coach, on his first year at it (only coached 3 seasons in his life).

Incredibly enough was even able to elevate that level in the Playoffs, having his greatest PS from a numbers perspective.
In the WCSF against the Warriors with Barry, Phil Smith and Wilkes, he absolutely killed Parish and Clifford Ray, putting up 37.6 ppg, 18.7 rpg, 4.3 apg, 3.3 bpg on 60.7 %FG/64.0 %TS.
In the WCF against Bill Walton with a much better team (the eventual champions) he put up 30.3 ppg, 16.0 rpg, 3.8 apg, 3.8 bpg on 60.8 %FG/66.0 %TS, with his teammates getting majorly outplayed and playing pretty much like shit. Walton with 19.3 ppg, 14.8 rpg, 5.8 apg, 2.3 bpg on 50.7 %FG/51.7 %TS, so you can see Kareem was clearly outplaying him, a center with one of the greatest peaks ever.
PS averages of: 34.6 ppg, 17.7 rpg, 4.1 apg, 3.5 bpg, 1.7 spg on 60.7 %FG/64.6 %TS.

If KAJ had several good teammates around him in 1977 (not even at the same level as in 71 or with the Lakers best years), the Lakers would've most likely won a title, even though that Blazers team was great and really hard to beat once they got it going.
He peaked in 1977, it's clear to me. Still a great athlete, had put on some weight to deal with bigger centers, improved intangibles, more refined skills and better use of them, beastly offense, beastly rebounding and bestly defense.


Kareem was past his peak in 1979 (still in his prime though) but I'll admit he always had problems against Moses. (good read about it here: http://hoops-nation.com/community/topic/50034-kareem-abdul-jabbar-vs-moses-malone-battles-of-the-greats-3/)
Still, speaking of peaks, Kareem was the greater player, and as far as careers not even that close. I'll tell you that Moses is underrated af, after '83 he inexplicably dropped his production considerably though.

[moe94]

Does this dude really use bing?
Audibly laughed.

[moe94]

The '99 version did just that in the playoffs...
How is a guy entering his peak seasons outplaying a guy in his twilight considered noteworthy?

[KOBE143]

If rookie Yao gave Peak/Prime Shaq some problem then imagine prime Kareem against Shaq..

Kareem would destroy Shaq and its not even close..

[LAZERUSS]

Please just stop, you're making a fool out of yourself. "Not even the best player in the league"? :facepalm

Look at his 1977 regular season:

26.2 PPG (3rd)
13.3 RPG (2nd)
3.9 APG
1.2 SPG
3.2 BPG (2nd)
57.9 FG% (1st)
70.1 FT%
36.8 MPG (not even top10)
1st in WS and WS/48
1st in OWS
1st in DWS
3rd in DRtg
1st in PER
MVP

Lakers had the best record in the regular-season, with 53 wins. Amongst his best teammates were an old Cazzie Russell, Lucius Allen also in his final years, Kermit Washington and an also old Don Chaney. Jerry West was the coach, on his first year at it (only coached 3 seasons in his life).

Incredibly enough was even able to elevate that level in the Playoffs, having his greatest PS from a numbers perspective.
In the WCSF against the Warriors with Barry, Phil Smith and Wilkes, he absolutely killed Parish and Clifford Ray, putting up 37.6 ppg, 18.7 rpg, 4.3 apg, 3.3 bpg on 60.7 %FG/64.0 %TS.
In the WCF against Bill Walton with a much better team (the eventual champions) he put up 30.3 ppg, 16.0 rpg, 3.8 apg, 3.8 bpg on 60.8 %FG/66.0 %TS, with his teammates getting majorly outplayed and playing pretty much like shit. Walton with 19.3 ppg, 14.8 rpg, 5.8 apg, 2.3 bpg on 50.7 %FG/51.7 %TS, so you can see Kareem was clearly outplaying him, a center with one of the greatest peaks ever.
PS averages of: 34.6 ppg, 17.7 rpg, 4.1 apg, 3.5 bpg, 1.7 spg on 60.7 %FG/64.6 %TS.

If KAJ had several good teammates around him in 1977 (not even at the same level as in 71 or with the Lakers best years), the Lakers would've most likely won a title, even though that Blazers team was great and really hard to beat once they got it going.
He peaked in 1977, it's clear to me. Still a great athlete, had put on some weight to deal with bigger centers, improved intangibles, more refined skills and better use of them, beastly offense, beastly rebounding and bestly defense.


Kareem was past his peak in 1979 (still in his prime though) but I'll admit he always had problems against Moses. (good read about it here: http://hoops-nation.com/community/topic/50034-kareem-abdul-jabbar-vs-moses-malone-battles-of-the-greats-3/)
Still, speaking of peaks, Kareem was the greater player, and as far as careers not even that close. I'll tell you that Moses is underrated af, after '83 he inexplicably dropped his production considerably though.

McAdoo was injured in '77 and was never the same. He was already on KAJ's level by 1974. And he would easily surpass him in '75. Then, he was completely robbed of the MVP in '76. Furthermore, in their H2Hs in those years, McAdoo was outscoring him (and in '79 McAdoo hung a 45 point game on KAJ, which is the most against KAJ by another center in the research that I have come up with.)

Once again, centers like Lanier and Gilmore were giving KAJ all he could handle by the mid-to-late 70's (and beyond.)

And we both agree that Moses was clearly the better player from the late 70's thru the 80's.


However, an Alcindor was just crushing the NBA in '71 (with only Wilt battling him to statistical draws.) And a '72 KAJ was abusing the centers that season (including Wilt...although Chamberlain dramatically reduced him in the post-season), except for under-rated Thurmond, who outplayed KAJ in both the regular season, and the post-season. A '72 KAJ averaged 44 ppg against Cowens and 40 ppg against Wilt in their regular season H2H's.

[LAZERUSS]

How is a guy entering his peak seasons outplaying a guy in his twilight considered noteworthy?

Shaq was outplaying Hakeem for most of their entire careers.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=onealsh01

[fpliii]

Shaq was outplaying Hakeem for most of their entire careers.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=onealsh01

Can you rate Kareem's offense, defense, rebounding from 1-10 each season from his rookie year until you have his prime ending (I'm guessing 80, maybe you have it going a couple more years though)?

[moe94]

Shaq was outplaying Hakeem for most of their entire careers.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=onealsh01
Didn't Deron Williams and Derrick rose outplay Paul for all their meetings?

[La Frescobaldi]

How is a guy entering his peak seasons outplaying a guy in his twilight considered noteworthy?
According to ish, apparently only if it's young Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and old@ss Wilt Chamberlain (but not in the playoffs though).

[CavaliersFTW]

According to ish, apparently only if it's young Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and old@ss Wilt Chamberlain (but not in the playoffs though).
^-- yes conveniently it only applies to him :oldlol:

[fpliii]

Just remembered this thread. Weird stuff.

So Kareem peaked in his first two seasons? Or was the Jet just speaking about Bucks Kareem, or younger Kareem in general?

[RIP CITY]

Shaq couldn't handle any Hall of Fame scoring big man defensively, he was an incredibly overrated and average defender. They couldn't stop him but he definitely wouldn't stop any of them, let alone a peak Kareem.

[LAZERUSS]

Just remembered this thread. Weird stuff.

So Kareem peaked in his first two seasons? Or was the Jet just speaking about Bucks Kareem, or younger Kareem in general?

Actually he peaked from the latter half of his rookie season, thru the '70 playoffs, thru all of his 70-71 season, including the post-season, and then thru the '72 regular season. That was his absolute peak. From the '72 post-season, thru the rest of his career, he had a gradual decline, albeit with an occasional roller-coaster graph, but was never as dominant as he had been from mid-way in '70, thru his '72 regular season.

The numbers don't lie. He was not only a much more unstoppable scorer in those years, but a better rebounder (especially considering the quality of his peers in those seasons), and a MUCH better defensive presence. He anchored some of the greatest defensive teams in NBA history from '71 thru '74.

After that, for whatever reason, he went downhill. I personally believe his poor play in the '72 post-season just stunned him. Up until that point in his entire competitive life, he had never been anything less than the best player, and by a mile, in the game. You have to remember that his high school teams, and college teams were practically unbeaten in his eight years, and he just blew away his peers in those eight years. Then, in his rookie season, after an early learning curve, he took what had been a mess of a team, (along with rookie Bobby Dandridge), to a 56-26 season, and then had as dominating a post-season as he ever had (only his 76-77 post-season might have been better), in which he averaged a career post-season high 35.2 ppg, on .567 FG%, with nearly 17 rpg.

Then, in his 70-71 season, his Bucks just overwhelmed the league. At one point they were 65-12, and coasted to a 66-16 record. And statistically, that team might have been the greatest ever. They not only outscored their opponents by +12.2 ppg, they outshot them by a record differential of .085 (.509 to .424.) And, they were even more dominant in that post-season. They went 12-2, outscored their opposing teams by a record +14.5 ppg, and outshot them by a record .102 differential (.497 to .395.) And considering that he battled Thurmond, Wilt, and Unseld in that post-season, his overall season was probably the greatest of his career.

And it would continue into 71-72. Milwaukee started out 17-1, and seemed to be invinceable. However, Wilt's Lakers stunned the NBA, beat Kareem's Bucks 4-1 in regular season H2H's, and wound up with perhaps the greatest regular season ever. Still, KAJ scored 40+ points 19 times that season, and aside from Thurmond, was downright dominating every center in the league.

BUT, in the first round of the '72 playoffs, and for the first time in his competitive life (aside from Wilt pounding him in their lone H2H in his rookie season), KAJ was downright outplayed by an opposing center. Thurmond easily outscored and outshot him (my god, Kareem shot .405 against him in that series.) But, with a far more talented roster, the Bucks still blew away that Warrior team, 4-1.

Maybe it was just a glitch. In the first game of the '72 WCF's, KAJ reasserted himself, and the Bucks slaughtered Wilt's Lakers. In their second encounter, KAJ still easily outplayed Wilt, but the Lakers, behind Jim McMillian's huge game, edged the Bucks.

Still, the series shifted back to Milwaukee for game's three and four, and surely they would grab hold of the series by the throat there. It didn't happen. From that point on, Wilt completely neutralized a stunned Kareem, and even KAJ's teammates were shocked. Kareem couldn't hit the Grand Canyon from the ledge, and often even his makes were pure luck. Chamberlain was challenging every shot, and even sending the "unblockable" skyhook all over the gym. Kareem had become noticeably intimidated. In game five, Chamberlain just crushed Kareem, and the Lakers annihilated the once "invinceable" Bucks by 25 points. Then, in game six, in Milwaukee, Chamberlain took over the game in the fourth quarter, and absolutely murdered a helpless Kareem down the stretch. Wilt engineered a comeback from a double-digit deficit, and with Kareem's teammates, coach, and fans watching in stunned silence, the Lakers came back and won the series. Virtually everyone who watched that entire series acknowledged that a 35 year old Wilt, way past his prime, and on a surgically repaired knee, had outplayed a PEAK Kareem.

THAT was it. From that point on, we never again witnessed a full season of the dominance that Kareem had brought upon the NBA in his first three seasons. It was just unfathomable. After the young Bucks had just carpet-bombed the NBA in that 70-71 season, and with Kareem overwhelming the league in that span, most experts tabbed the Bucks as the next great dynasty. And many were already predicting that Kareem would go down in history as the GOAT.

It just never materialized. I have said it before, occasionally a motivated Kareem would go out and pour in 50 against a Walton. And, he was capable of having dominant post-season series, like '74 and '77, but he just couldn't sustain his unbelievable level of play from '70 thru '72 the rest of his career. He also lacked leadership, alienated teammates, and had chemistry issues with his teams after that, as well.

In any case, by the mid-70's, the same centers that he had waxed earlier in his career, had considerably narrowed the gap. Then McAdoo became the best player in the league from '74 thru '76. Had he not sustained an injury after that '76 season, he might well have put up a ton of 30+ ppg seasons. Players like Gilmore, Lanier, and Cowens were giving him all he could handle. Walton came into his own, as well, and despite Kareem routinely crushing him, Walton's Blazers became the most dominant team in the league (although it was short-lived.) And by the late 70's, Moses emerged as the most dominant center in the game, and after that Kareem was never again considered the best player in the game. Had Magic not resurrected his motivation to win, he likely would have retired a massive under-achiever.

[La Frescobaldi]

Just remembered this thread. Weird stuff.

So Kareem peaked in his first two seasons? Or was the Jet just speaking about Bucks Kareem, or younger Kareem in general?

Here's why I think that is probably true - his college coach had Kareem playing the best ball of his life. And he carried that with him into the NBA. As his NBA career went along, some of his coaches weren't even able to glimpse what Kareem was capable of. And by the time he did get a coach worthy of his abilities, he was long since past his athletic best years.
edit ~ lemme put it this way. If Pat Riley had been coaching the Lakers in the late '70s I really believe they would have continued their dynasty from '72 straight through the Magic years.

Chamberlain suffered from the same problems. Those guys invented modern basketball as far as paintwork is concerned, and coaching strategy lagged far behind them and had to learn from them. Shaquille O'Neal benefited hugely from their having played before him, especially in regards to Phil Jackson ~ who played against both and understood precisely what that kind of force meant to the game.

Either of them today would be just like they were then - far & away the best players anybody ever saw.