2000 Shaq

[moe94]

2000 Shaq led the league in scoring and field goal percentage
Had one of the GOAT finals performances and regular seasons

Isn't that enough reason for Kobe and Duncan to never be ranked higher than him on any all time list?

[Mr Exlax]

2000 Shaq led the league in scoring and field goal percentage
Had one of the GOAT finals performances and regular seasons

Isn't that enough reason for Kobe and Duncan to never be ranked higher than him on any all time list?

All time lists are based on career accomplishments. If you're talking about best player all time lists then I don't think anybody has Kobe and Duncan over Shaq.

[PJR]

Most dominant year from an individual player in the modern era of basketball. Shaq was flat out unstoppable during his MVP year.

[NumberSix]

Yes. Anybody who honestly thinks Duncan or Kobe were ever the player that Shaq was is fooling themselves. There's really no discussion to be had.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

2000 Shaq = Best player of all time

[ispin69]

League was so soft they had to make up new idiotic rules and fake offensive fouls to slow him down and try to neutralize him. Everyone wants to be tough and play rough until Shaq plays then it's flop city and crying about shoulders being lowered when going to the basket.

Most responsible for those 3 rings + made Wade look legit even though his whole career has been plagued with inconsistency. Now we can see why he didn't win with the Suns, Amare (lol 100m and they knicks won't even play him, injuries everywhere) and Nash (no defense, too slow) being exposed for the past few years. Would have won more with Lebron but you know he threw the finals so he could go to Miami.

[magnax1]

Yes. Anybody who honestly thinks Duncan or Kobe were ever the player that Shaq was is fooling themselves. There's really no discussion to be had.
I kind of have to agree with this. Shaq was just dominant on a level very few players can compare to peak vs peak.

[Magic 32]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPifae15xyM

[Deuce Bigalow]

2000 Shaq = Best player of all time
1950 George Mikan says hi

[RoundMoundOfReb]

1950 George Mikan says hi
Lol u made me burst out laughing in class.

[gts]

2000 Shaq led the league in scoring and field goal percentage
Had one of the GOAT finals performances and regular seasons

Isn't that enough reason for Kobe and Duncan to never be ranked higher than him on any all time list?


all time career or all time best season?

[Uncle Drew]

Isn't that enough reason for Kobe and Duncan to never be ranked higher than him on any all time list?
No.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

I like guys who come in focused, in shape, and give you the same level of effort and production year after year. Shaq's motivation went through a lot of peaks and valleys over the years. That's why he'll never be above Kobe in my mind.

[NumberSix]

I like guys who come in focused, in shape, and give you the same level of effort and production year after year. Shaq's motivation went through a lot of peaks and valleys over the years. That's why he'll never be above Kobe in my mind.
Yeah, but Shaq plays to win. Kobe plays to aggrandize himself and hopefully win while doing so.

[scm5]

Yes. Anybody who honestly thinks Duncan or Kobe were ever the player that Shaq was is fooling themselves. There's really no discussion to be had.


Shaq was the most dominant force the NBA has seen but he had the attitude that "i got hurt on company time so ill rehab on company time." He came to training camp out of shape. He was a jokester. YET, he was still so dominant that he won 3 titles performing at an incredible level.

Kobe was a better leader even though he had his flaws. His leadership by example was most important. Kobe might have snitched on Shaq when he was younger, but the man demands excellence on the basketball court and will feud with you if you aren't on the same page. Definitely flawed, but definitely better than the type of leadership Shaq provided.

Duncan is of course, Tim freaking Duncan. Consistent leadership with a championship pedigree. Consistently upped his level of play in the playoffs. Defensive anchor and unselfish.

No one is dumb enough to think Duncan or Kobe was better than Shaq. The GOAT list to me is a list of career accomplishments. Longevity, consistent greatness, and leadership all count for something. It's not just talent alone. It's the whole package, and it takes a team to win a championship.

[TheMilkyBarKid]

I like guys who come in focused, in shape, and give you the same level of effort and production year after year. Shaq's motivation went through a lot of peaks and valleys over the years. That's why he'll never be above Kobe in my mind.
I take impact over effort, sure shaq couldve been better than he was, bit he was better than kobe regardless.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

I like guys who come in focused, in shape, and give you the same level of effort and production year after year. Shaq's motivation went through a lot of peaks and valleys over the years. That's why he'll never be above Kobe in my mind.

Cool. I like guys who are better at basketball.

[LAZERUSS]

There have only been three centers since 1960 that have completely dominated ALL of their peers. Chamberlain throughout the 60's, Moses from the late 70's thru the mid-80's, and Shaq from '98 thru '04 or '05.

Shaq's 2000 season ranks among the greatest ever. And his Finals was perhaps the greatest ever played by anyone.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Yeah, but Shaq plays to win. Kobe plays to aggrandize himself and hopefully win while doing so.


Hmm interesting theory maybe Shaq should have taken a page out of Kobes book seeing as Kobe had more success without Shaq than Shaq had without Kobe :confusedshrug:

[SHAQisGOAT]

Peak Shaq = absolute beast :bowdown:

That man was so dominant, crazy to even think about it.

Top 5 peak (with Wilt, MJ, Bird and KAJ) at the very least.

Nough said.

[KOBE143]

2000 Shaq led the league in scoring and field goal percentage
Had one of the GOAT finals performances and regular seasons

Isn't that enough reason for Kobe and Duncan to never be ranked higher than him on any all time list?

That happens because he played with Kobe..

Kobe made Shaq..

[Graviton]

Why is nobody talking about the competition? Need some context for the domination. What centers did he dominate that year? Aside from Duncan who were the elite big men of that era?

[Straight_Ballin]

Cool. I like guys who are better at basketball.

Another Kobestan hath been silenced!

Ever since you started buying into the whole Malone>Barkley thing, you've been on a terror. :lol

[TheMilkyBarKid]

Hmm interesting theory maybe Shaq should have taken a page out of Kobes book seeing as Kobe had more success without Shaq than Shaq had without Kobe :confusedshrug:
Shaq was at his absolute peak in his laker days and lets not act like shaq was nothing before Kobe, he got the magic to the finals and performed on a similar level to prime hakeem.

[riseagainst]

Shaq was at his absolute peak in his laker days and lets not act like shaq was nothing before Kobe, he got the magic to the finals and performed on a similar level to prime hakeem.

dont forget Shaq also had a certain guard that averaged 21-7 on 60TS in the regular season and 20-8 58TS in the playoffs in 95.

[Marchesk]

2000 Shaq = Best player of all time

Debatable. MJ, Kareem, Wilt, Oscar and hell, Lebron (mutters) have had comparable seasons.

[TheMarkMadsen]

dont forget Shaq also had a certain guard that averaged 21-7 on 60TS in the regular season and 20-8 58TS in the playoffs in 95.


Yeah it's not like Shaq was playing with a bunch if scrubs

He was playing with 1st team all NBA perimeter players throughout his career.

Whats the difference between 98-99 Shaq and 99-00 Shaq? Lakers were swept by the spurs in 99 with a rookie Duncan putting up 29/11/3 to Shaqs 23/13/.5

[ILLsmak]

I think Shaq is definitely better than Kobe and Duncan, and I am really surprised anyone has them... or Hakeem over him. That being said, we saw Shaq face off against those guys (or in Kobe's case, play with him.)

I dunno how people can, then, say Shaq's peak was the highest. First of all... it only lasted one year? I disagree with that. That was his absolute best year, sure, but I don't think it was anywhere close to the best year ever. I think that Shaq's run from like... 94 to 2006 makes him mentionable as a top 5 player, but it's really hard with so many great guys.

Still, the point stands, I don't see anyone post MJ being ranked higher than Shaq and that's including Bron right now. Maybe when it's all said and done, we'll see.

-Smak

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Cool. I like guys who are better at basketball.

Cool. I like guys who aren't a liability at the end of games.

If you can't make a free throw with nobody guarding you, are you really "better" at basketball? I don't think so.

[TheCorporation]

1950 George Mikan says hi

And 2000 Shaq says BYE.

[D-Wade316]

GOAT peak

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Cool. I like guys who aren't a liability at the end of games.

If you can't make a free throw with nobody guarding you, are you really "better" at basketball? I don't think so.
So Shaq can't be better than Ray Allen cause he's worse at free throw shooting? Terrific logic. :applause:

[thesage]

I remember not wanting to watch the NBA in 2000 because I knew the Lakers were going to win and it wasn't even going to be close because of Shaq.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

So Shaq can't be better than Ray Allen cause he's worse at free throw shooting? Terrific logic. :applause:

Nice try.

Ray Allen isn't a tier one player like Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Lebron, etc. When comparing tier one players I think it would be foolish to ignore the fact that Shaquille is a huge liability at the end of games. The end of the game is when it is won and lost. Common sense.

I also think it would be foolish to ignore the player's work ethic (or lack thereof) when ranking the top guys. This should also be common sense.

[KingBeasley08]

This Kobe talk reminds me of when griffmoney had a breakdown when ISH ranked Shaq higher than Kobe all time :oldlol:

[Magic 32]

I still can't forgive the way he waisted a golden chance to create a "Bill Russell" like dynasty between 2000 and 2005.

Shaq basically took the 2001, 2002 and 2003 regular seasons and by the 2003 playoffs, the rest of the team had emptied their tank.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Nice try.

Ray Allen isn't a tier one player like Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Lebron, etc. When comparing tier one players I think it would be foolish to ignore the fact that Shaquille is a huge liability at the end of games. The end of the game is when it is won and lost. Common sense.

I also think it would be foolish to ignore the player's work ethic (or lack thereof) when ranking the top guys. This should also be common sense.

It's not foolish to ignore work ethic. Sure maybe if Shaq worked harder he could've been better than what he was but what he was was already a much better basketball player than Kobe.

Also regarding FT shooting being a major flaw - I don't think it was tbh. If you want to play the foul Shaq game then you're putting your team into the penalty early as well as giving your frontcourt players a lot of fouls making them hesitant to contest shots at the rim. I view that as a MAJOR asset, Hack-a-Shaq was just a desperation move when Shaq was raping your team too badly.

Also, we haven't even gotten into defensive and rebounding impact where Shaq blows Kobe out of the water.

[moe94]

Shaq basically took the regular seasons off in 2001, 2002 and 2003.


If his coasting means he's far and away the best player in the league, I can live with it.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

If his coasting means he's far and away the best player in the league, I can live with it.
03 you could argue TD. But I agree with your point.

[Magic 32]

If his coasting means he's far and away the best player in the league, I can live with it.

He played back to back 67 games in 01-02 and 02-03. Easy to look like the best when you play 3/4 of a season.

And he sucked against Timmy in 2002, lost to him in 2003, and was very lucky to beat the Kings the same year.

[moe94]

He played back to back 67 games in 01-02 and 02-03. Easy to look like the best when you play 3/4 of a season.

I'm sure anyone can just be flat out much much better than the second best player just by virtue of playing 3/4 of the year. :oldlol:

[Magic 32]

I'm sure anyone can just be flat out much much better than the second best player just by virtue of playing 3/4 of the year. :oldlol:

Exhausts your team though.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

It's not foolish to ignore work ethic. Sure maybe if Shaq worked harder he could've been better than what he was but what he was was already a much better basketball player than Kobe.

Also regarding FT shooting being a major flaw - I don't think it was tbh. If you want to play the foul Shaq game then you're putting your team into the penalty early as well as giving your frontcourt players a lot of fouls making them hesitant to contest shots at the rim. I view that as a MAJOR asset, Hack-a-Shaq was just a desperation move when Shaq was raping your team too badly.

Also, we haven't even gotten into defensive and rebounding impact where Shaq blows Kobe out of the water.

OK, so in your mind it's not a problem to be a lazy superstar that doesn't want to stay in shape and takes chunks of the season off because you don't feel like playing the full season. Duly noted, but I think you might be in the minority with that opinion.

Also as a Laker fan, I understand very well the impact of Shaquille not being able to make freethrows. It was a big obstacle for us to overcome at the end of games. To pretend otherwise is nuts.

Rebounding

For a player as physically dominant and Shaquille he underachieved as a rebounder. He averaged 10.9 career rebounds per game at 7'1 and over 300 pounds. Kobe averages 5.3 rpg as a skinny, 6'6 shooting guard. Big fricking deal.

Defense

If Shaquille's defensive impact was so overwhelming then why didn't he ever make the NBA all defense first team. Not even one time. He made second team just 3 times in 19 years. Kobe on the other hand was first team all defense 9 times and second team 3 times. I would think you must have quite a bit of defensive impact to be selected as a first team defender all those years.

[TheMilkyBarKid]

Not crediting shaq for his rebounding due to his size is moronic, he got the boards at the end of the day and that's that.
I knew all defense teams would get brought up, but you cannot say kobe deserves all of those awards, even so shaqs defensive impact is significantly larger. There's a reason why dpoy tends to go to the big guys, they anchor the defense.
People were put off driving by having big shaq in the paint, this also allowed Kobe to gamble on steals.
Face it shaq will always be better than Kobe.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Not crediting shaq for his rebounding due to his size is moronic, he got the boards at the end of the day and that's that.
I knew all defense teams would get brought up, but you cannot say kobe deserves all of those awards, even so shaqs defensive impact is significantly larger. There's a reason why dpoy tends to go to the big guys, they anchor the defense.
People were put off driving by having big shaq in the paint, this also allowed Kobe to gamble on steals.
Face it shaq will always be better than Kobe.

I didn't discount the rebounds that Shaq got. It's my opinion that 10.9 isn't such a huge deal compared to 5.4 especially when you consider size and position. At no point did I say he doesn't deserve credit for his 10.9 rebounds per game. I do think it's very fair to say for someone his size he should have been a better rebounder.

Well Kobe is going to be at a huge disadvantage if his actual accomplishments "don't count" because they "weren't deserved". Jeezus, typical inside hoops bullshit. Yes, I do say Kobe deserved all those awards. He won them, period. I'm sorry that reality is getting in the way of your argument.

What's so great about Shaq's defensive impact, he was never recognized for it. Also, if you look at his stats, the bulk of his big years of blocking shots and rebounding were early in his career. Much of his career is very ordinary in that regard. Bottom line, he didn't put forth the effort.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

OK, so in your mind it's not a problem to be a lazy superstar that doesn't want to stay in shape and takes chunks of the season off because you don't feel like playing the full season. Duly noted, but I think you might be in the minority with that opinion.

I'm not saying I don't value work ethic. I value work ethic when all other things are equal. T-mac and Kobe probably had equal talent but Kobe is better cause he worked harder. In simple terms Shaq + Great Work Ethic > Shaq + Poor work ethic > Kobe + Great work ethic

Also as a Laker fan, I understand very well the impact of Shaquille not being able to make freethrows. It was a big obstacle for us to overcome at the end of games. To pretend otherwise is nuts.

Every player has flaws. Free throw shooting was Shaq's. Doesn't exclude him from being better than Kobe.

Rebounding

For a player as physically dominant and Shaquille he underachieved as a rebounder. He averaged 10.9 career rebounds per game at 7'1 and over 300 pounds. Kobe averages 5.3 rpg as a skinny, 6'6 shooting guard. Big fricking deal.


Shaq averaged 11.8 RPG in his prime. Way to include in his role player years in there.:applause: And why you mention their height is beyond me. You don't get sympathy points for being shorter. And yes rebounding is a "big fricking deal".

Defense

If Shaquille's defensive impact was so overwhelming then why didn't he ever make the NBA all defense first team. Not even one time. He made second team just 3 times in 19 years. Kobe on the other hand was first team all defense 9 times and second team 3 times. I would think you must have quite a bit of defensive impact to be selected as a first team defender all those years.

All D teams are a joke. If that's your argument I don't even know what to say and Kobe doesn't deserve half of those all d awards.. Shaq was an elite rim protector and an underrated defensive player. And a center inherently has more of an impact on Defense.


..

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Exactly what I expect to read in ISH.

Kobe doesn't deserve his awards, his rings don't count, he was carried by Shaq and Gasol, blah, blah, blah.

F**k you.

[Guy Ledouche]

I wouldn't rank either of those guys over Shaq.

[TheMilkyBarKid]

I didn't discount the rebounds that Shaq got. It's my opinion that 10.9 isn't such a huge deal compared to 5.4 especially when you consider size and position. At no point did I say he doesn't deserve credit for his 10.9 rebounds per game. I do think it's very fair to say for someone his size he should have been a better rebounder.

Well Kobe is going to be at a huge disadvantage if his actual accomplishments "don't count" because they "weren't deserved". Jeezus, typical inside hoops bullshit. Yes, I do say Kobe deserved all those awards. He won them, period. I'm sorry that reality is getting in the way of your argument.

What's so great about Shaq's defensive impact, he was never recognized for it. Also, if you look at his stats, the bulk of his big years of blocking shots and rebounding were early in his career. Much of his career is very ordinary in that regard. Bottom line, he didn't put forth the effort.
He got huge rebounding numbers when they were needed right?
Well in that case LeBron deserves all his mvps and kobe only deserves his lonely 1. Oh but wait that's not right because it doesn't fit your agenda, right mate :oldlol:
He may have not put in the biggest effort, but his impact certainly outweighs Kobe.
Eat a Dick you stan.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Exactly what I expect to read in ISH.

Kobe doesn't deserve his awards, his rings don't count, he was carried by Shaq and Gasol, blah, blah, blah.

F**k you.
Are you kidding? ISH is by far the most pro-Kobe NBA forum on the internet. Go to realgm start a poll on the Player Comparison section about who ranks higher Shaq or Kobe All time and see if you can break 20% for Kobe.

[KyleKong]

I rank Shaq higher than Kobe and Duncan, but not only because of 2000.

[joeyjoejoe]

Hmm interesting theory maybe Shaq should have taken a page out of Kobes book seeing as Kobe had more success without Shaq than Shaq had without Kobe :confusedshrug:

Wow this posters lack of brain cells is mind boggling

[joeyjoejoe]

I got shaq just above duncan on my list and Duncan above kobe

[Donkey4trading]

It was so nice of Shaq to decide to wait until Jordan retired, Hakeem retired & Duncan missed the playoffs to become the "most dominant ever"

[Donkey4trading]

Shaq is not better than Duncan.

Duncan as a rookie out performed Shaq in the playoffs a year before Shaqs 2000 run. Duncan missed the playoffs in 2000 (who's team was handled in the first round w/on him after wining the title a year prior) and when the Spurs met the Lakers in the 01 WCF the "most dominant ever" Shaq put up 27/13/2.5/1/1 on 54% compared to Duncans 23/12/4/1/4 on 48%. Duncan was forced to carry the entire load offensively, Duncan led his team in scoring and his 2nd option Antonio Daniels was putting up 19ppg 2 3 on 41%..

Shaq didn't lead his team in scoring in this series, Kobe Bryant did, Shaqs "2nd option" averaged 33 7 7 on 51%.. Duncan didnt receive nearly the help Shaq did in this series and in his career overall. Shaq was blessed enough to play with some of the best perimeter players of this generation, players that have continued to rack up accolades long after playing with Shaq.

If Duncan plays with prime Penny, prime Kobe, prime Wade is there any doubt that he achieves even greater accomplishments then he did playing with Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, and a near retired David Robinson? who are no slouches but are not in the same tier as prime Kobe & prime Wade.

[moe94]

when the Spurs met the Lakers in the 01 WCF the "most dominant ever" Shaq put up 27/13/2.5/1/1 on 54% compared to Duncans 23/12/4/1/4 on 48%.

Seems like Shaq outplayed him...

[TheMilkyBarKid]

Seems like Shaq outplayed him...
Yeah I don't get why he put up those stats they don't help his point, plus d rob was no slouch on defense

[moe94]

Yeah I don't get why he put up those stats they don't help his point, plus d rob was no slouch on defense
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI85iVU3xkE

[Magic 32]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI85iVU3xkE

1998 or 99.

[Donkey4trading]

Seems like Shaq outplayed him...

Duncan averaged 4 blocks and 4 assist. When you take that into account 4 extra points doesn't seem like much. Also consider that Duncan outplayed Shaq just 2 years prior as a rookie..

Shaq wasn't even the most dominant player on his team in the WCF, people are so ignorant when it comes to Shaq, they are ready to label him better than Duncan which is an absolute tragedy to do so and act like its not even close.

Shaq always had the better teammates, what happens if Duncan plays with prime Kobe Wade & Penny? It's comical to call Shaq the MDE when Timy Duncan himself was more dominant from 99-03, he outplayed Shaq in 99, then Duncan misses the playoofs in 2000, meets Shaq again in 01, puts up comparable numbers to Shaq while having more impact defensively and veing the sole provider of offense to his team (23ppg 4apg) yet is a freakin after thought. Duncan didnt have a sg that averaged 25+ ppg throughout the playoffs, he wasn't surrounded with the supporting cast Shaq was blessed with throughout his career..

[moe94]

Duncan averaged 4 blocks and 4 assist. When you take that into account 4 extra points doesn't seem like much. Also consider that Duncan outplayed Shaq just 2 years prior as a rookie..


When Shaq is literally averaging more points on better shooting and you use THAT to justify him as getting outplayed, I think these two players are not even on the same level and it makes Duncan look bad in comparison.

That comment of Duncan being more dominant from 99-03, Shaq's actual peak seasons, makes you sound like a complete tool and deluded. :oldlol:

[Donkey4trading]

When Shaq is literally averaging more points on better shooting and you use THAT to justify him as getting outplayed, I think these two players are not even on the same level and it makes Duncan look bad in comparison.

That comment of Duncan being more dominant from 99-03, Shaq's actual peak seasons, makes you sound like a complete tool and deluded. :oldlol:


How thick are you? I'm not saying he outplayed Shaq in that series but the level of play wasn't far off. Duncans outplays Shaq in 99.

Why do you only focus on points in a comparison between Shaq & Duncan for the series? Duncan put up 4 blocks & 4 assist to add to his 23 & 12. Shaqs TS% was 55 to Duncan's 54 if all you wanna do is look at FG%.

Difference is Duncan never had a perimeter player averaging 33/7/7 on 51% in the conference finals

[moe94]

Difference is Duncan never had a perimeter player averaging 33/7/7 on 51% in the conference finals

Your argument for Duncan being better than Shaq rests on his help being inferior? You throw around stats that don't even work in your favor? I'm the thick one? :rolleyes:

[SpecialQue]

ISH = where one season >>>>>>>>>>> career